Ep.90: Breaking Free From Love Addiction with Dr. Janie Lacy

In this episode, we sit down with trauma psychotherapist Dr. Janie Lacy to talk about a topic many women quietly struggle with—toxic relationships and love addiction. As therapists and women who’ve navigated our own relationship journeys, this conversation hits close to home as we unpack what truly defines a toxic relationship and why these dynamics can be so hard to recognize or leave.

We also explore the roots of love addiction, trauma bonds, and attachment wounds—and why even strong, successful women can get stuck in painful relationship cycles. Dr. Lacy shares insights into the healing process and how women can rebuild self-worth, break unhealthy patterns, and move toward healthier relationships.

Episode Highlights

[0:00] – We welcome Dr. Janie Lacy and introduce today’s conversation on toxic relationships, love addiction, and healing.

[2:28] – Dr. Lacy explains what defines a toxic relationship—and why unhealthy behaviors often become normalized.

[8:30] – We explore where the line is between normal relationship struggles and toxic patterns.

[11:50] – A discussion on power imbalance and how attachment styles shape relationship dynamics.

[15:04] – We discuss financial dependence, traditional roles, and whether economic imbalance creates unhealthy relationships.

[21:21] – What love addiction is, why it’s not in the DSM, and how obsessive thinking and fear of abandonment appear in relationships.

[26:59] – Why we mistake intensity for intimacy—and how it keeps people stuck in painful cycles.

[31:22] – The impact of gaslighting and how it makes people question their reality.

[36:40] – Trauma bonds and why toxic relationships can feel chemically addictive.

[37:22] – Dr. Lacy explains the difference between self-worth and self-esteem.

[39:20] – Inside the Women Redeemed program and how group work and deep healing support recovery.

Links & Resources

Dr. Janie Lacy Website

Dr. Janie Lacy Instagram

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "I

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Transcript

Colette Fehr: 0:44

, welcome to insights from the couch, where real conversations meet real

Laura Bowman: 0:48

life at midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you, whether you're feeling stuck, restless or just unsure of what's next. This is a space for honest conversations, messy truths and meaningful change.

Colette Fehr: 1:07

And our midlife master class is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action and make midlife the best season yet. Go to insights from the couch.org and join our wait list. Now let's dive in. Welcome back to insights from the couch, everyone. We're here your hosts, Colette fair and Laura Bowman and we have with us today a special guest who's a dear friend and an amazing psychotherapist, Dr Janie Lacey, I want to just start out by giving you a little intro to her impressive credentials before we dive into our topic today, which is toxic relationships, love addiction and of course, most importantly, breaking free from those relationships and finding healing so dr Janie Lacey is a nationally recognized trauma psychotherapist, and she's the CEO of life counseling solutions. She's the creator of the transformative women redeemed program, and a leading voice on healing, redemption and relationships. You've probably seen her on TLC is the last resort, which is so cool and like, I just absolutely worship you for that you're like my spirit animal, her TEDx talk and her, Let's Talk About It with Dr Janie Lacey podcast. So first and foremost, welcome and thank you for being here.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 2:27

Thank you for having me. We're so excited

Colette Fehr: 2:30

to dive in. So this is what I was thinking about and chatting with Laura about as we got into the podcast today, is how many toxic relationships I have unfortunately been in in the past, and how much that led me on my own mission to become a couple's therapist. And I think love addiction in particular is something that isn't really understood properly. How much this can affect us in our dynamics. So as we dive into this topic, could you maybe start out just by telling us a little bit about what actually defines a toxic relationship that we might not get from the internet or social media.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 3:08

You got it. You know, I tend to think when I am asked this question just how we are socialized, so whether it's movies, music, entertainment, whether it's watching our parents relationship, or listening to the different messaging that comes down from those that were the adults or the caretakers around us. Many times, we don't realize that we're in toxic relationships that I would imagine, you know, some form or fashion, we've all had this experience because things that are unhealthy become normalized by what we're constantly feeding ourselves, what we're learning, what we're talking about with our girlfriends. So when we get to the place of understanding that we're either in a toxic relationship, it's usually because we've had a pattern of behaviors and just emotional instability that we've had in our relationships, and sometimes it can also get to being a physical or domestic violent relationship. But not all toxic relationships are domestically violence. I have to say that. But you know, a couple things that a lot of people would experience in their i know i also have had my share of toxic relationships, romantically friendships, work situations. It's been across the board, but we were

Colette Fehr: 4:20

saying that, Janie, thank you for normalizing me that I'm not the only one.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 4:24

No, we are in that camp, and that actually makes us better. Therapists actually lived experience. We're not just talking about some type of theory. We understand it. But you know what? I look not only my personal experience, but other countless women that do come through the women redeem program, we don't recognize a couple things, disrespect, criticism, or, you know, good old gottman's The good old contempt, right? So we learn to live with these things, pet these things, normalize them. We have our own toxic behaviors, but we'll see this is the difference between just an unhealthier problem in a relationship versus a pattern. Because it is a pattern. The disrespect keeps showing up, the criticism keeps showing up, the contempt keeps showing up, and then there's manipulation and there's control tactics, and sometimes the person who we would consider more of the victim doesn't see how they're trying to get control or manipulate the situation so that they can feel security in the relationship, because in our women redeem program, it's important for us to normalize some of our women's their own toxic behaviors. We can't be in a toxic relationship without having our own toxic behaviors, but sometimes we'll justify it, and it's a righteousness because the other person is doing something that is harming us, but we'll also. See, and I'll just give some common examples. We're right now in a women redeemed program, so a lot of it's pretty fresh, but, you know, there's a lack of support and there's a lot of undermining of each other's goals. But it doesn't look that way from the outside, but the person can feel kind of the the pattern of, if every time I'm doing this, there's always some type I'm just trying to help you, but there's some type of undermining of my goal. We'll see a lot of violation of boundaries. And a lot of the women in our program, they also have to realize that it's not just the other person violating the boundaries, like if we're part of our own toxic behaviors, we cannot respect other people's boundaries, or we don't have boundaries, but we'll do it in the sense of I'm helping, or this how I love so we have to recognize that there's a pattern of violation boundaries. And I'm sure, just as I am, the two of you constantly are probably hearing the good old term gaslighting, right? You're which I actually, I can get on Laura, I can get on the soapbox about this, but I won't, right, but I do think it's just such a form of cruelty when you make someone question their own reality. Colette, right? So I do believe if you guys have not covered that topic, she'd really cover that topic. But you know, there's also jealousy and there's possessiveness, and sometimes it's only because I care about you, right? There's sometimes emotional volatility, and that's where the emotional abuse can come into play. And we'll see. Well, I grew up in Italian home. I grew up in a Puerto Rican home. This is how we speak, right? So we will justify this week.

Colette Fehr: 7:09

I've said that in the past, like, this is how I express myself. I'm Italian, I'm from New York, like, if my voice isn't raised, I don't even know what's happening, right?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 7:18

We've done it. We hear it, right? We make excuses for our bad behavior, we minimize it. And then sometimes, you know, we can probably go in a lot more characteristics of toxic relationships. But another one I commonly see in my practice is a power dynamic where one person dominates. And sometimes this can come from a traditional model where the wife is relying primarily on just using the heterosexual language the husband is bringing in the the finances, and she's primarily taking care of the kids in the household. And then if you have this undercurrent of a toxic relationship member, it's a pattern, not a behavior, and then there's control that happens, and then that's where she can get into her trying to please. And you know, he can be doing things outside of the relationship if he's a fearful, avoidant, all right, but I think the the one thing I'll end about just talking about toxic relationships or the topic, is I believe Laura and Colette, it's just the impact that it has on people, like when I talk about the movies, the music and these types of things. Yeah, it could be entertainment. But as we know, the three of us are walking, not only probably our own past at some point, but we're walking with our clients through these through these paths. It's not entertainment. They lose their self esteem, their self worth. There's this chronic stress and anxiety, and I believe, more than ever, we see cancers, migraines, we see we're seeing all types of conditions, and I know that person that I'm working with is in that prolonged toxic relationship. It's affecting her health, right? There's isolation from her friends and her families. They're walking on eggshells to avoid conflict. I mean, I can go on and on and on, but I think the physical health one just gets me so fired to really help a lot of women get out of these situations, because especially when you start getting over 40, right, if things start showing up, and I do believe it's tied to the longer we're in toxic relationships, chronic stress and and health issues,

Unknown: 9:11

oh my god, yes,

Laura Bowman: 9:13

that's well, hard to like. I agree. And it's, it's really, really sad and scary. And I'm just wondering, as I'm listening to it like, where's the line? Like, because I think every relationship has its share of toxic dynamics. You know, even if it's like, low level behaviors, like, where is it? Where's that line? Where you go? I gotta get out of this thing. I mean, is there? Is that a subjective experience? I mean, most I'm guessing. I'm answering my own question, as I'm saying out loud, is it, is it the woman finally saying, like, you know, I'd like, rather live in my car than do this relationship again, like, for one more minute? Or is there something that is just kind of like unequivocal, of like, this is not going to work?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 9:59

Well, I do think it's very nuanced and right. As therapists, we never tell people what to do, but we can draw all the different paths. But what I'll see is when people commonly, if I talk about what I think, what commonly gets people to that place, especially if we look at it from a female perspective, is that she feels like she's tried everything that she can try. She's taken him to therapy, she's tried to be the perfect girl from the perfect wife. She tried to do all the things that he's complained about, and she's just spinning her wheels. And at some point, that's where the relationship becomes so much more harmful than it is anything that's going to bring you into any type of healthiness or your better self. So when someone constantly it's like the death by. 1000 cuts. When someone is getting to that place where their arm is getting ready to fall off and they just can't see a path forward. Think a lot of people will get to that place naturally, when, even when they haven't done their own work. And I that's why I say naturally, because they'll feel like I've tried everything I'm staying for the kids, you know, I'm trying to do everything that he said, but then they lose themselves, they become numb, and perhaps get their own addictions to numb the relationship. But I do think that there's the other side of it, where there are couples that have gotten through the toxicity of their relationship. And I always tell, at least tell my clients, one of the hallmarks of that is if there are two people who have a growth mindset, their ability to have insight into their own behavior, they take accountability, and they can start developing empathy for the other one's experience, even when it hurts them to do so. So when you have these things that start showing up on repeat, then there is a way and a path forward. But when one person is dragging the other one into therapy, I know I'm not the only one that has had that experience, but they're dragging them into therapy. They're checking the box, and this is who I am, and they don't want to give up whatever that behavior is for them. Sometimes people have to realize that if I stay in this relationship, I'm just going to not no longer have life for myself. And that's where the sicknesses do start,

Colette Fehr: 12:02

yeah, you lose yourself completely. So that really helps to hear it that way. And it makes sense. I've experienced that personally what you describe, and also see that, of course, all the time, being a couple's therapist, as I know you guys, so I'm also curious about a couple things and what you said. So one, the power imbalance? Do all toxic relationships have a power imbalance? Is that a hallmark feature

Dr. Janie Lacy: 12:30

I'm like a typical therapist and say, it depends, right? But the one thing that I will show, the one thing that I that I see, and that I constantly, that shows up in the room, is that there is a level of power and balance, and sometimes that comes through attachment. So when we have a couple who, let's say there's a typical anxious attachment style and an avoidant attachment style, it's usually the avoidant that holds the most pattern, the most power in the relationship emotionally, which is why shape depends, because we can look at it from a financial standpoint. We can look at it as but when we look it down to the bottom of it, and you're looking at these attachment styles, and especially if there's an anxious attachment style in there, that's the one that's usually chasing, that's the one that's usually obsessive, that's the one that you know can get obsessive about the relationship. Where the avoidant, I think sometimes people get the avoidant. Sometimes it's cold or they don't care, but they're just trying to survive themselves. They cannot live in that shame they can't live in, you know, so they have to cut themselves off to kind of survive. But for the anxious attachment, the the balance, they're just trying to get that person to see me again and and if we look at it from a power dynamic that can be considered a power imbalance.

Colette Fehr: 13:42

Oh, I agree, yeah, yeah. And when I'm doing discernment counseling, which is the very specific model of therapy that's designed to get an answer about whether you should stay or go, you know, implicitly, people will complain that, oh, they have all the emotional power. But the reality is, no matter what the dynamics, if somebody's leaning out of the relationship or contemplating divorce, they automatically, inherently have more power. So I'm really loving that you're pointing out the power imbalance can look can be emotional, and it isn't necessarily that person is trying to have power over it just happens organically. Or it can be financial. Which leads me to the second part of my question. I remember being in graduate school for therapy and whatever the class was with Dr Valerie Thomas, where we talked about, like feminist theory, there were videos we watched. I can't remember who they were with, but where they said, if you're in a relationship and you don't have economic leverage, like my first marriage, I did not work. I was a stay at home mom. I had no financial power of my own, and at the time, I didn't really care to have it. Honestly, it didn't bother me until I got divorced. Now, I would never go into that again. I'm not frowning on anyone's decision too. But in these videos, and what we learned in the class was that if you're a woman and you don't have your own source of income or money in the bank that you bring to the table, that you are automatically not in a healthy dynamic, and you have no power. And it made me reflect on all the friends. I mean, that is definitely what we learned. I'm not saying it's right, and this is why I want to hear what you to hear what you have to say. But I have many friends who are in longtime, 20 year marriages. They've never worked since they got married, and they're very happy. So I'm just curious your stance on that. Do you see an a huge economic differential and the power imbalance that is implicit? In that as a problem. Or do you think those relationships can be healthy?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 15:44

I do think that they can be healthy, because it depends on the parts, right? So if you have a for example, let's say the male is the one that has the power, as you're using the example, he goes out into the workplace, and they decide for their family system, that the wife would stay home. She's the CEO of the home, and she's going to take care of the children. If it's his character, to be loyal and to be respectful in the relationship, the power imbalance doesn't matter, but it has to be his character. It doesn't even mean that she's any she's doing anything. Doesn't mean that she's modeling Victoria's Secret at home at night. It just means that that is his character, that is what he's bringing to the table. So when you have healthy parts in the relationship and there's a respecter of what they're building, I 100% believe it can work, but I do think it's dangerous when you have the parts that are coming into the relationship where, let's use the good old word, the narcissist, right? So she doesn't even know that the person she's marrying has high narcissistic traits, and it starts coming out later on. I mean, that's a very emotionally and mentally dangerous place for a dependent person to be in a relationship. So it all comes down to the to the parts. So I do believe that, and I've seen it, you know, personally in my my friend circles, that 100% it can work if two people, that's their compatibility, that's their agreement, and that the the head of the household, if we look at a traditional model, he has a healthy character traits that he brought to the table, and has nothing to do with her, and vice versa.

Laura Bowman: 17:16

You know, though, I think that what I would teach my daughter, certainly, and I would say to my younger self is, yeah, maybe you're, you're reliant on that other person to bring, like a really solid character to the table, and like you're, you're inherently at risk. You know, like, I think that like a woman not having access to her own money just puts you at risk. You're just, it's dangerous. It's dangerous. I don't I don't feel safe.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 17:46

Yeah, because we also are three therapists who have walked a lot of women through these dangerous situations. So that's why I say it's a balanced approach, because I think there are women who you know that from a traditional model that and to me, it's not even that they're happy in the relationship? Are they satisfied? Right? That have lived long term, that it has worked so but I'm kind of middle of the road. I don't tell I don't take a hard stand that you have to have your own money, you have to do these things. But I do believe, to your point, that there has to be looking at it as a business. So if I'm going in business with you as a partner, I need to understand your character, your belief system. And how are we going to do this? We both can't be the CEO, right? But on the other hand, like we both, I mean, we all three of us, at some I'm assuming we've all walked lots of clients through the situations where it has been dangerous, where they've become completely dependent, they couldn't leave. They're aligned on the children, you know, all these other types of things. So then it can warp our our viewpoint that no she has to have her money, she has to have

Colette Fehr: 18:46

her own bank account. That's been my own experience. I live that that was not a great choice for me. Personally, I don't presume to project that choice onto others, because I do have friends who are very happy and I love I think it's brilliant what you pointed to. Because I think it's the nexus of it all, is that when you're getting you're getting into a business with somebody you choose as a partner, and if you're going to be dependent on them financially, because you're providing other aspects of that business deal, and that feels good to you in your own value system, it's going to come down to how safe are you with the character traits of this person, and I would have been probably eventually I would have needed to go back to work, because that's my own process and who I am as a person. But my choice would have been safer if certain things hadn't happened that I didn't know were a part of the bargain when I when I made it so, and I do have many friends who are so happy at home and they're in really healthy relationships, but they are married to men who are great guys and who are loyal, and they aren't narcissists. So it's really, it's a personal choice depends on the character.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 19:56

Yeah, yeah, because where I'm at right now, I would always have my own bank account. That's why I say I go on both sides, right? So, yeah, someone been married and being divorced and having dated after divorce, 100% at this time in my life. It's my own bank account. It's my own purpose. It's my own, you know, piece of the pie in the world. So that's why I can see both sides. But how I am now, I agree with you, it's my own big

Colette Fehr: 20:19

Yeah, yeah, that's the personal journey. I mean, I'm married, we have separate bank accounts. We have a joint bank account that covers household expenses, but the rest of our finances we keep separate, and that's my choice. I feel better that way, and I find making money to be empowering, doing something meaningful. So you.

Laura Bowman: 20:40

Yeah, personal wants to not have choices. Like, that's a scary place to be in the world, because I can't do anything, you know, if this thing goes sideways,

Colette Fehr: 20:50

right, right? Okay, so back to toxic though, for a second here. So you talk about, you know, okay, we've talked a little bit about power and balance, and then we're talking about boundaries, your boundaries. I also really like Janie, how you said it's not a behavior. And Laura, you said every relationship, we all have our moments, we can all behave like lunatics or jerks, and then we hope that we repair often and repair well. But in toxic relationships, it's a pattern of behavior. This is like the default is that you're chronically undermined. There's a lack of boundaries, or your boundaries are violated. And ultimately, the cost is great, because it's your mental health, your physical health, your well being, your sense of self esteem. So take me into a little bit about love addiction and what that looks like. You know, most of our audience is women, not all women. So maybe you could even talk a little bit about, like, you know, does this affect men too? And I feel like, I think I know the answers, but you're the expert on this, so tell us about that in particular.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 22:02

So the basic way I would explain love addiction first, it's not in the DSM, but we know it exists, so we are still looking at a behavioral pattern. But the difference between just a general toxic relationship is a person becomes, I would suggest, dependent on the intense feeling that's associated with being in love or relationships at the expense of their own well being. So Pia Melanie, you know, she will define it as a love avoidance and a love addict, right? But when we're looking at love addiction, sometimes it kind of also can cross with like codependency and other things. But I won't get us all confused, but for love addiction in particular, there can it. Can show up someone's obsessive need for that romantic attention and validation. So the way can show up, for example, in our clients, is, let's say they're dating and they are, they text Bob, and Bob does not text back because he's at work and he didn't see the text, and her mind, her obsessive thinking is like, why is he not texting? Well, maybe he didn't get the message. So then she starts texting him again, did you get my message? And then she starts right? There's an obsessive narrative that starts getting created in the mind, right? So we see that through and through with love addiction. But then another common one we'll see is there, there's a an inability, I would say, to be alone, and there's an undercurrent of a fear of abandonment. And one of the things I'll see Colette, sometimes the women will say, Well, I don't I've been alone before, but they don't see that they have, I guess, in today's terms, called sneaky links, right? So they have someone that they're talking to, or maybe is a potential romantic interest. So they may not be in a relationship, but they have options that are kind of riding in the background because of that fear of abandonment,

Laura Bowman: 23:43

they always have, like, a source of supply. Like, are always on the on the take for a source of supply. And I've, I've been like, I know you held up Elizabeth Gilbert's book. Do you read that in your group? Are you guys book clubbing that

Dr. Janie Lacy: 23:56

our our books that we're reading is the Gifts of Imperfection, by Brene Brown, and then ready to heal by Kelly McDaniels. But and we have a group chat, and we, several of us, are reading the book, and we're

Colette Fehr: 24:10

What is this book called? Because I know you guys have both read it,

Dr. Janie Lacy: 24:15

called all the way into the river, and she, I would actually recommend, if you're going to read it, to listen to it, because she narrates it herself. So you can hear her passion, her emotion, but she'll talk about her love, her sex and love addiction, her codependency, her substance abuse. And then, you know, I don't want to get all into it, but she's, she's speaking first person through about her life experiences. And I believe every woman can relate to some part of her life, maybe not to the intensity of some of the parts that she's experienced, but we can relate to all of it. So 100% you guys should be reading

Colette Fehr: 24:48

it, and the Gifts of Imperfection is so good. So it's really that, you know, as you talk Janie, I think about my younger self and relationships, whether or not I met the full criteria of love addiction, definitely some of this anxiously attached, really, really scared of abandonment, always having a boyfriend. I mean, by the time I got divorced at 31 I had had a boyfriend from age like 14 until 31 like I broke up with my high school boyfriend, and five days later, I started dating my husband. There were no breakups. There were no and it really wasn't until I was single for a decade in and out of relationships, that I identified some of these tendencies that I would fall in love with love you know, that I would need that lava acronym that like love, attention, validation? What's the other one? What's the other a adoration, approval, approval, approval. Yeah, yeah. That if, if I was and I'm so relational as a person, so I think it can be hard to define the line, like, if something doesn't feel good in my close relationships, it affects me deeply. And I don't think that's necessarily unhealthy, but I love how you pointed out the at the expense of yourself, like I would stay in these relationships, almost because I couldn't break out of it. And it would become not even about the person or really love for them. It would become about I wasn't okay. If I wasn't getting those things from that person, if I didn't hear back from them, I would be like, feel sick the whole day, obsessive rumination about why weren't they responding, and where were they and I wasn't going to feel okay. And recovery for me would was literally getting out of the relationships and learning to, like, get through the withdrawal period. And I'm not even someone I think has low self esteem. So I just want to normalize that some component of this really can happen to any and in all of us, in the right conditions, right?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 26:51

You said it it's not about low self esteem. Sometimes it's actually about Laura, that you are strong. It's because you do have self confidence, right? So sometimes you can attract and we the whole other conversation, but like a narcissistic type person, because if you're codependent, if you're a love addict, it's like you are the blood to that vampire. So, but it's because you are strong sometimes, or because they have, they see certain traits in you. So it's CEOs, it's C suites, it's some of the celebrities I work with. It's entrepreneurs, it's business owners, it's those that have, you know, eight figures in the bank is across the board. And what you've just described in your own scenario Colette is sometimes it's so subtle that we don't even realize that's happening, right? Because it's normalized, jumping from one relationship to another with little time in between, especially

Laura Bowman: 27:40

on the right person, yet, yes, yes, the narrative, right?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 27:44

And Laura, I actually like hate the term twin flame or my soulmate, because what happens, especially for women, it, think it presents different for men, especially as women, we start prioritizing relationship over all other life of areas, right? So if we're hanging out with our friends. We're now giving all our time and our attention to our dating partner, or perhaps our our husbands or and and it looks okay from the outside, because that's what you're supposed to do, but then you start losing yourself over and over and over again. And then another common thing i'll see, especially right now, in our women redeem, is we will mistake intensity for intimacy. That's where the chemistry, I always say it's compatibility and character, not just chemistry, right? But it's the chemistry. He gives me butterflies in my stomach. Oh, he's so cute, right? That's the stuff the movies are made of. And if he's not giving me the butterflies in my stomach, I don't want it, right? That's what we will hear. But it can be very harmful. And as you mentioned, clet will stay in in these harmful relationships, because we don't want to be alone. Or what are people going to think? What I got to think if I get divorced again, or what I'm going to think if I'm like, now I'm was with that boyfriend at the Christmas party. Now I'm bringing another boyfriend, all right? So we'll stay in these situations that may be harmful for us, just to avoid, you know, what people think about us?

Laura Bowman: 28:57

And it sounds like there are so many parts to it, right? Like, you know, there's the codependency piece, where it's like, you just have this, you know, like, empaths, like, in our line of work, like, we tend to be so sensitive to other people's moods and weather systems, and it's sometimes hard to stay in our own place, and we want to fix or rescue. And so that's one piece of it. But then there's that other piece of like, there's intensity. And it's like, we mistake intensity for something that, oh, this passion, this is real love, as opposed to it being just like our nervous system being hijacked, yes? So it's like, all these things can wire together to really pull you away from yourself. So I'm assuming that, like, you tell me, like the women redeemed program, like people are coming when they have literally been put through the wood chipper of this process, and they're like, I don't I need to, like, Come home to myself somehow, right?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 29:56

Yeah, they, you know, most people, when they come to someone that either specializes in love addiction or toxic relationships, or, in our case, women redeem. It's usually not because they've had some type of enlightened moment or they read a book, and it's usually because they are just so sick of being sick. I mean, so they come at usually there, but they can still show up at work. They can still do the things, because we learn to live in parts, but at the core of them, you mention it, you know, it's anxiety. It's constant. I can't think. I can't. I'm not taking care of my children. I'm not taking care of myself. I can't. I'm obsessing about this person, you know, and some of the situations that we're having this this year. And the two of you are probably aware of this, but now, in the state of Florida, the stalking laws. Are October 1. It said in if you're putting a tracker on a car, it's third

Unknown: 30:45

No, I don't even know this. Wait, sorry, go ahead, educate us.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 30:48

Yes. So October 1 there was a law that's passed in the state of Florida that you cannot track somebody without their permission, even if you're married to them. And that means that if you get found out, it's a third degree felony in the state of Florida. So you can't throw, you know, a tag in your husband's car. I want to make sure he's going to work, because if your husband was to find out, and let's say he's toxic, and if he was to call the police and say, Hey, there's this tracker in my car, and they trace it to his wife, especially if he wants to press charges, you're going to jail. And this is what we're coming up against now, because a lot of women historically have been able to find out about a fair partner has been able to find out about, you know, and you can't even connect them on your phone unless you have consent. So let's say they're having a nasty divorce, and he says, well, she's had me on 360 she didn't have my permission, right? She could be charged with a third degree felony October 1 in the state of Florida. So we're dealing with a lot of like now, that's causing people with anxious attachment styles even more anxieties that, you know, what? I used to be able to secretly put a tile on it does not apply to kids, but honestly, could put a tile on my boyfriend's, you know, in his car to see what that he was really going there. So a lot of anxiety has been coming. Yeah.

Colette Fehr: 32:02

I mean, my first instinct when you said this was like, this wasn't already a law. I mean, I have to say my first instinct was like, good, you shouldn't be tracking. But look, I've been cheated on. It's absolutely devastating I get wanting to know, and how hard it can be to know. But should we really be tracking people without their consent?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 32:24

No, we're all healthy, right? So we're healthier, I should say. But we know that if you feel like, right, the rule of thumb that I recommend is, if you feel like you have to track somebody, you probably already know something's not right, right? But we also know when people have that anxiety, we've probably all had, had women clients, that I have to know, you kind of know that something's going on, but until they walk in on him actually being in the bed with another woman, some people don't leave because they don't have which is the gas lighting, right? So I saw that. I saw that woman's name pop up on your phone, like, who was that? What are you talking about? Why are you all right? And then they get into this thing. So the gas lighting, I swear I believe it is so cruel. It is cruel to make her think that she is crazy when she knows what she saw. I do believe that is cruel.

Colette Fehr: 33:07

I agree. I think it's one of the cruelest things. I mean, I once in a cheated on scenario, I once totally accidentally stumbled upon a note that had it was an email that had a two way interaction where it was clear that sex was happening, and yet I was told very definitively that nothing happened. It wasn't what I thought. And you can feel in your gut when you know to some degree that something's not right, but I can really empathize with those of you who are listening where you want that proof, because it's so painful and the consequences are so dire, but I like what you said. This is what I say to people about looking at someone's phone. I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing transparently. I think it's part of a fair recovery to say, Hey, you want to look at my phone, let me open that up to you, like we have to feel safe again. But to me, if you're wanting to look at a phone and you don't have consent, that's your radar, that something needs your attention. Because I haven't looked at my husband's phone one time. It's lying there, right? But I have the password. He has the password to mine. We have, we have each other on, you know, iPhone location. And to me, I never check. I'm not worried about it like at all, but to me, that's like a healthy relationship behavior, yet I never feel the urge to go look at his phone. And I'm guessing, Laura, you don't either. You're in a long

Unknown: 34:32

term marriage. I don't think I have ever looked at his phone.

Colette Fehr: 34:36

Me neither. And I'm 13 years into the relationship, so if you want to look, then get curious, like, what's that about? Right?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 34:45

Yeah, and this is why we're having the conversation, because there's lots of people that come to women redeem, that come to us that don't have those scenarios. They're in these toxic relationships, they're in the gaslighting relationship, and their anxiety is out the roof. So I do want to validate their experience. Their anxiety is out the roof, so then they're thinking, Well, maybe if I get into his phone, or maybe I track him. So the stalking, right? It's under the stalking law, but the stalking of their partners or to to make sure, because the gaslighting has made them think that they're crazy. And that's why I like to validate people's experience, because there may be a lot of people who don't have those experiences, right, but they're in the women redeem program because, but you know, there's, there's a key to, kind of also kind of come back to it for your listeners, that some underlining factors can make us more vulnerable to toxic relationship, or love addicted relationship, or being attracting into narcissistic, abusive relationship when we do. Our own work, right? It's not to ever blame ourselves for being in these situations, but we do know there's some common underlying factors, which is what we do in the women redeem program, right? We're looking at, as we mentioned earlier, attachment wounds. We're looking at low self worth. We can't just look at self esteem. Self worth we know is the root, is the roots, the the self esteem is the bark, or the, you know, leaves, if we want to make it like a tree, and then the unresolved trauma. It's usually like rinse and repeat. We've been there before. You know, learned relationship patterns from our childhood, and then trauma bond, right? The trauma bond in a relationship, it gets the relationship very addictive. It's like the slot machine, right? That you're just waiting for those Lucky seven, so you're waiting for him to be nice again, you're waiting for her to come around again, and then you just hang on to that anxiety, and that gets a very addicting so a lot of people say, Well, why do you stay if you can't trust your partner? Why do you stay if he's emotionally abusive to you? And when they're coming into our office, we have to help them understand the reason the there's a biological reasons that happen in their bodies. That's happening when you have intermittent reinforcement and they get addicted. So it's not easy to say, Okay, well, I think he's cheating and he's not treating me well, I'm just going to walk out the door. We know it doesn't work that way, because there was a build up over time that made her addicted. Because when he comes back and he's nice and he's kind, right? So they're constantly trying to get back to that moment when he's, come here, go away. Come here, go away. And we look at love, addicted relationships with attachment, attachment anxiety and avoidant at the core of it, that's the constantness of the relationship. So it's the trauma bond that keeps people stuck in the relationships

Colette Fehr: 37:20

and the process itself is so addictive, just like heroin, because when you experience the pain and suffering and you lose all your dopamine, when that person isn't being nice has pulled themselves away, and then the only time when you get any dopamine, any relief, and at that point, the dopamine isn't even A high, it's just relief from the suffering of withdrawal. So it is the relationship itself becomes so addictive, and then there are these underlying factors you talk about. So before we get into like, a little bit about healing, one thing I wanted to ask you tease out for us the distinction between self worth and self esteem, because I think a lot of people don't know the difference there. Alright?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 38:03

So when we're looking at self worth that's going to be tied to our belief systems, and our belief systems are sometimes very subconscious, right? So it's not necessarily what we say. I can say, Oh, I believe I I'm the best thing since sliced bread, but if you watch my behavior and how I show up, you can see a contradiction. So when you're looking at people's belief systems, it's usually in the contradiction. We can see the belief system, which is their self worth, right? Their self esteem. That's things that we can see. You know, am I taking care of myself? Do I speak affirmations over myself? Do I know that? You know, I deserve this to me, it's a little bit more on the surface. That's why I say. It's like a bark of the tree. We can see the bark of the tree and then the leaves, is how it manifests in our life. But the self worth is going to be in those roots. It's going to be in the belief system. And the belief system is really going to be the rinse and repeat that we show in our life, mostly as we're talking about relationship and relationships. You can see that and you know, the other thing I like to say when we're talking about love addiction and toxic relationship, because the two of you just made me think about it. There are people that are in toxic relationships, or love addictive relationships, that are married 30 years, that are married 20 years. I don't want people to think it's just somebody that's dating or, you know, maybe not in a marital relationship. There are women they're currently, right now, and are women redeemed. There are people that are leaving long term marriages, like 3040, years, right? So they've been back and forth, come here, go away inside the relationship. So someone's listening to this, and they think, Well, you know, I'm married 20 years, but yeah, I know something's not right. I'm there. Must be talking about, they know we're talking about all relationships.

Laura Bowman: 39:37

Glad you said that. So take us into, like, the healing. And you did talk about it a little bit about, like, the, you know, the attachment wounds, the the trauma. Like, what is, what do you do in the women redeem, course, where you're and I'm assuming the group component is huge for women, just to see it in other people. But like, what are the components of healing in a group like that?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 40:01

For one, I do believe when you are healing from a toxic relationship or a love addicted relationship, as a therapist, just like the two of you, I believe group work supersedes individual because of that, they're in the system where they get to witness. They get to know I'm not alone. They get to hear other stories that reminds them of something that they don't have language to yet. So the group work, to me, is the foundation, because also the isolation that happens when you're in toxic relationship people women hide because of shame, because of guilt, because of image, and especially the higher public image that you have, the more you hide it. So in the group setting, you're gonna be with women. That are on the same path, they may have it manifesting differently. So that's the first thing. And we do 90 days, which is 12 weeks on purpose, because we know the detox process. Most women use women redeem as a detox process. They're they're going no contact with a toxic ex husband or partner, and we know that that is the most about 14 to 21 days after you decide to go, to go no contact, is also the time where you relapse. Right? Relapse is extremely high in toxic relationships and love addictive relationships, which is why the power of the group is important. So that's the underlay the group work the detox of the 90 days. But not everyone is going no contact in the group, there are people that are still married and working just decide to work on themselves. But I have the three pillars, which I do talk about in my TEDx talk, is the three pillars of healing. The first and we, we structure the 90 day group. That way I structure my retreat to that way is we first look at the mindset work. We have to get that jaharis window right. There's things that we can see, they can't see. There's things we can't see, they can't see. We need to get into that box. What's the belief system? So we do the mindset work, and then we do the inner work, and we do a lot of experiential work, and then we do somatic experiencing. So right now, our group is through zoom, so we start each session with a somatic experiencing, some type of EMDR session, and then we do a lot of experiential work in our field. I'm not sure if the two of you are familiar with the trauma egg, the angel egg, so we're doing a lot of that work. We do the mask exercise. I literally have a mask here. I'll show it to you. So we have the different mass exercises that the ladies do. So if you're familiar with it. So we have to do a lot of experiential

Colette Fehr: 42:20

we know what would tell us? What that is, know about the mask thing.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 42:25

So the mask is we have to when we're doing inner work. We know, as therapists, we can't just talk about our problems. We have to get tap into our creative side of the brain. So the mask is on the outside. People will draw like what other people see, right? So there's several areas to see what other people see on the outside and and then if we were to turn it around, they put in how they really feel.

Unknown: 42:53

Oh, look this.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 42:55

Lot of them like this person put insecure, this person put depression without knowing it. This other example, they have blue it's confused, alone, depressed, weak. So we in our in person group. We do the painting. We do it all together, and then we process it. So that's one exercise we do. We do letter writings, and then we go around and do a gestalt therapy where we sit in for the healthy right now we're doing a mother wound so they write a letter to their younger self. We can go around and speak from a healthy mother. So we have to do experiential work, is my point, and we do that with the inner, inner child and the somatic work. We do some things that we can do right now. We're limited with virtual but we do somatic work virtually. And then we also recommend other things like the hiking, biking using bilateral stimulation, walking, sitting outside in sunlight. So we get a collective plan. And then the other thing that we do is we assign them buddies. So instead of if they're going through detox and they want to call him and just curse them out at one o'clock in the morning they're calling that buddy, and that buddy knows when that person's calling that they're always going to answer. So accountability helps them get through the triggering moments. So support, yes, so I put in all of the components that I did my doctorate program on and that I know that gets women to the other side of healing. We put it into the 90 day program, and we monitor those, because I've been doing this for 10 years now. So I monitor those that stay in touch to know who's moved on to healthy relationships, what's worked beyond our program, because they have to do the work beyond the program.

Colette Fehr: 44:34

Oh, it's so good, so good. It makes me want to come do the great. No, I want to do I want to make a mask?

Dr. Janie Lacy: 44:42

Yes, you guys are welcome. We have a therapist that come all the time. I don't disclose that they're therapists. They disclose when they're ready. It's very, actually common that we get a lot of therapists that come to the group through the years, which I just love it. I love seeing therapists not only do their own work, but to also benchmark other people, like, I'm not someone. Oh, you can't come. No, it's healing. Is for everybody. There's a piece of the pie for everybody. So, so, yeah,

Colette Fehr: 45:05

so great. So great. So, and of course, we're going to link to this in the show notes, because so and I love that you're doing it on Zoom. Laura and I do our coaching program for women, the midlife master class, on Zoom. And we incorporate a lot of these similar elements too, because it makes it accessible to people anywhere. You know, I love the in person things so much. But then nobody can come unless they're here in Orlando, where we all happen to be located, Orlando Winter Park. So it's so Maitland, too. I don't want to leave Maitland out my home of 20 years, but it's so great that. Now this kind of a program any of our listeners can participate, whether you're in a marriage for a million years that has had toxic elements, or you're dating and you notice some of these patterns coming up. You know, I kind of shed and did my own work, bumbled through it on my own way, and I had to get heartbroken and suffer so many times. So I think having the support of other women, you know, I know Laura and I both agree with you so much, there are things that can only happen best in the group experience. So it can be so healing and rewarding right to have the accountability, the support and to see other women examples that are maybe more extreme, examples that are less extreme, seeing women taking new risks and shedding some of those behaviors that can help more than we can individually. As therapists, agree, yeah, so Oh my gosh. You guys check out Dr Janie Lacey's women Redeemer program. It will be linked in the show notes. And actually, go ahead, Janie, and give us some of the websites, social media, where people can find you and all this good work you're doing. Yeah.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 46:54

So the the main hub is just Janie lacey.com, j, A, N, I, E, L, A, C, y.com, it'll link to women redeem and a link to all the social medias, but I'm Dr Janie Lacey and all the social medias.

Colette Fehr: 47:07

Great, great. And of course, you're like a TV star too, which is amazing. You're on all these cable shows I've seen you commenting on, you know, Brian co burger, everything from that to being on TLC. So much fun, and you always do such a great job. The first time I ever interacted with you, before we became friends, is when you did a presentation at mental health counselors on this very topic, maybe 20 years ago. I mean, it's a long time ago, and I learned so much, and I related to so much, so you're doing such important, wonderful, valuable work in the world, and we're so grateful you took the time to be here today.

Dr. Janie Lacy: 47:47

It was my pleasure. Thank you both for having me.

Colette Fehr: 47:50

Thank you. So thanks to everyone listening as always. We hope you got some insights from our couch today, and if you did, please remember to follow the podcast. Write us a five star review. It helps us get these important messages out to even more women in the world and everyone else too, and we'll see you next week. Bye, guys, foreign.