Insights from the Couch - Real Talk for Women at Midlife

Ep. 98: The Personality Style That Can Strain Relationships: Understanding OCPD

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 8 • Episode 98

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We’re unpacking a topic that quietly impacts so many relationships but rarely gets talked about: Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD). We break down what it actually is (and what it’s not), especially how it differs from OCD, and why it can go undiagnosed for years. If you’ve ever felt stuck in patterns of perfectionism, control, or rigidity—either in yourself or a partner—this conversation might feel very familiar.

We also get into how OCPD shows up in real life and relationships—from communication struggles to feeling like you can’t quite measure up. And while we don’t shy away from the challenges, we also explore the strengths, the nuance, and what growth can realistically look like. There’s a lot here that might shift how you understand yourself, your partner, and your dynamic.

Episode Highlights

[0:03] - Welcome + why OCPD is such an important and overlooked topic

[2:30] - Reframing “personality disorder” and removing the stigma

[5:00] - Why OCPD often goes unnoticed until relationships are impacted

[6:30] - Key differences between OCD and OCPD

[9:30] - Core traits: rigidity, control, perfectionism, and overwork

[14:00] - Real-life relationship dynamics and relatable examples

[18:00] - How OCPD affects communication, compromise, and connection

[22:00] - Signs this might be showing up in your relationship

[24:00] - The internal experience: self-criticism, shame, and pressure

[26:30] - Strengths of OCPD and why these traits are often rewarded

[28:30] - What actually helps in therapy: building emotional flexibility

[31:00] - Growth for both partners + navigating differences

[34:30] - Why relationships can be both challenging and healing

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

 

 

 

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Colette Fehr:

welcome to insights from the couch, where real conversations meet real life at midlife, we're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you, whether you're feeling stuck, restless or just unsure of what's next. This is a space for honest conversations, messy truths and meaningful change. And our midlife master class is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action and make midlife the best season yet. Go to insights from the couch.org and join our wait list. Now let's dive in. Hi guys. Welcome back to another episode of insights from the couch. We're going to dive into today a very important, little understood topic that might be affecting your life and relationships. I'm talking OCPD, not to be confused with OCD. We're going to differentiate. This is a personality disorder, obsessive compulsive personality disorder. It often goes undiagnosed, and it can wreak havoc, in particular, on relationships. So we're going to tell you what it is signs that it may be a factor for you or a partner, and what you can do about it.

Laura Bowman:

I'm cringing a little bit at the term personality disorder. I just

Colette Fehr:

wanna I'm not

Laura Bowman:

I am because, like, I feel like personality disorder, I always think of, like, borderline, histrionic narcissism, I know, but like, they're not, like pretty terms like I and a personality disorder, I think, is, like, best understood as a pervasive style that runs through like, multiple areas of life and is really just a lens that's applied holistically to a person's life.

Colette Fehr:

Okay, let's break that down. First of all, I agree with you. I'm like, because I this one is, is close to me, but personality disorder, the terminology is, is pathologizing, it's shaming. I mean, the word disorder implies Something's really wrong with you. So let's destigmatize that, because what you're saying is valid, and I think is a different way to look at it that people don't realize we typically do think of narcissism and borderline and some of these more well known personality disorders, but that's just one group. As you well know, cluster B's, and we're going to talk about some of that on another

Laura Bowman:

episode. Do a whole cluster B. Let's

Colette Fehr:

do Cluster B, baby. I'm all for it, because that's that's the stuff that people mostly talk about. But what's important to know about what we've been calling in the DSM, which is the book, The Diagnostic Statistical Manual that psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, use to diagnose what's happening with a client or patient. The reason we call something a personality disorder is that it's what we call ego syntonic meaning that you inhabit that way, that lens that you're talking about, Laura, the way you see and move through the world feels right to you. It's really a part of the fabric of who you are and your personality. Doesn't mean you can't change things or make any change, but it does make it harder, because when you have a mood disorder, for example, it feels ego dystonic, it doesn't feel good to you. You know something's wrong. You're depressed. You wish you weren't depressed, even if you can't climb out of it. You wish you weren't so anxious, or, in the case of OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, right? People know that those intrusive thoughts aren't good. They wish they could go away. They know they're irrational, but they still struggle with them. So this is something that's really rooted in identity, OCPD, it can be from nature, like you're sort of born with it. There's a family history genetically to moving through the world this way and or it can come from nurture, your environment, trauma and need for control. So let's

Laura Bowman:

start and both, both and right. Like you can be hard wired, usually, it doesn't take too long to look back into the family tree to find somebody who has some of the same traits, and then add on that a layer of trauma, or feeling like you need to provide safety and stability and certainty in your life. And then it comes together in real time. But the I mean, essentially, it lives in the person's blind spot. You know, this is something we can see in other people, and they have a hard time seeing in themselves, or just Yeah, and

Colette Fehr:

this is why you're going to want to listen to the end of this episode, because there is a very real possibility this is actually, and we're going to get into what it is, I promise, in one second here. Yeah. But this is actually the most common personality disorder, and so it's very possible. Valuable that you're dating someone, married to someone, parents, married to

Laura Bowman:

somebody, yeah, yeah,

Colette Fehr:

or even possibly that this is something going on with you, because the only way people with OCPD tend to get help for it is usually when someone in a relationship is saying, Hey, this is affecting our relationship. So let's talk about what it is and what it's not. I'm gonna turn the floor over to you. First, give us a little thing, because you work with this a lot on OCD, and then we can talk about why it's different,

Laura Bowman:

yeah. And if you went back to our OCD episode with Brady Bradshaw and Dr Robin Cohen, we talked a little bit about this. Like, yeah, OCD is really distressing to a person. It's so time preoccupying. You know, this is, and there's a lot of different types of OCD, like, the just right? OCD, the contamination. OCD, those types of things where you're logging a lot of repetitive behavior. So you have an obsessive component, where you're obsessed on something bad happening, like that, you're gonna get sick. You

Colette Fehr:

have intrusive thoughts.

Laura Bowman:

You have an intrusive thought. But then there's a compulsion that you have to do to sort of neutralize that compulsive

Colette Fehr:

although there's not always a compulsion, some people have it without the compulsion, right?

Laura Bowman:

Some people just have like, what they call, like, a pure O, pure obsessional where they're just having lots of intrusive thoughts. But most of the time, when there's an intrusive thought, people are doing some compensatory behavior, even if it's just researching or checking or a lot of mental rituals to sort of defuse that.

Colette Fehr:

And I want to add something to this so not to be so OCD is in the anxiety family, and, you know, it's not necessarily the same thing, though, as pure anxiety or having intrusive thoughts. So I'll give a very common one that I've had clients with OCD that they have to make a differentiator, and then we'll move to OCPD. So I have this thing where I'm so afraid of death and anything that can kill you, I get a lot of intrusive thoughts around that. I have what the French call lapel duvet, like, the fear of getting too close to the edge that you could jump over. Like, I'm afraid of my own ability to like, like I went into my hotel room when I went to do the tamarind Hall Show in New York, and I was on like, the 26th floor of no mo Soho, and the window had a lever that you could open this huge window. And I swear to God, I feel scared even I still don't even understand why they would have that.

Laura Bowman:

Could you have thrown yourself out of it

Colette Fehr:

100% like easily? I'm shocked by this. Like my grandparents used to live on the 44th floor of their building, there just were no such I don't know it was very strange to me for a hotel,

Laura Bowman:

but such a liability, yes,

Colette Fehr:

and it scared me because of my own like, pull to possibly launch myself over, like, I, like, close the curtains. So when I see a knife, like, if I, if we're, like, in the kitchen and there's a big knife, I will have intrusive thoughts that I could, like, stab myself. Like, I'll see it like a move. You're

Laura Bowman:

gonna fall into the knife,

Colette Fehr:

yeah? Or just that, yeah, like that. I could stab myself. It's

Laura Bowman:

just Yeah, so

Colette Fehr:

close to possibility that I could just go like this, and that's it, game over. So that for me, is an intrusive thought that will make me shudder. And Steve, my husband's always like, Oh my God. Like, why are you scared of these knives that we're chopping the carrots with? I'm like, because we could, you could stab me. I could stab you. I could stab myself. He's like, Jesus Christ.

Laura Bowman:

Watch too much Dateline.

Colette Fehr:

But it's really, this is really just my brain throwing an intrusive thought in OCD, that intrusive thought will come back. Your brain will get stuck there, and that's a big part of it is that it's not just having the thought, it's that your brain gets stuck with OCPD. There are some people that have both, but it's completely different. This is not about having intrusive, repetitive thoughts, unless you have the overlap. It's not about your brain getting stuck. OCPD is really marked by extreme rigidity, inflexibility, obsession with work, with order, with conscientiousness, at the exclusion of all else.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah. I mean, I think there is, I want to look up the comorbidity, but I do think there is, like, a strong comorbidity, and I think it can get confusing. And I don't want to confuse the listener that you can have. I'm

Colette Fehr:

looking it up.

Laura Bowman:

You can have things that are really do fit, like an intrusive thinking OCD thought pattern, and have the OCPD. Personality, style, and it can be hard to freeze out.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, so they they do have significant comorbidity, meaning you have both. 20 to 30 plus percent of individuals with OCD will also meet OCPD. So yes, there can be both. But let's talk about,

Laura Bowman:

focus on the personality,

Colette Fehr:

OCPD, and then just to know that, you know, maybe this other thing we're describing was going on too,

Laura Bowman:

although I do want to say, just for the listener, like there's a really textbook version of this that we can talk about the textbook version. But I've seen this exist on a bit of a continuum, and where it gets really interesting for me in clinical practice is when you see it in women, and it can be easier to miss in women, because I think, I don't know about you, but I have a very stereotypical image of an OCB, PD, person, and it's usually A man who is, like, an engineer or an accountant?

Colette Fehr:

And yeah, you don't say

Laura Bowman:

yeah, that's like, my Vivi like, I have a very, like, strong vision of who this person is. And they're they're scientific, they're rules based, they're safety oriented, their detail. My dad had this actually, incidentally, and detail focused. Missed the forest for the trees. I'll never forget when my dad came to my house the first time I built this new house, and I was so excited for him to see it. And he walks in, and this is my dad, who's a chemical engineer. This fits the type. And he goes, Wow, hon, geez, you don't have any gutters on this house. What are you doing for drainage? Yeah. And I was like,

Colette Fehr:

that's what you have to say.

Laura Bowman:

That's what you're paying attention to. Is the gutter system.

Colette Fehr:

Okay? So this is just like, so I have very openly discussed this with my husband, because he actually has OCPD. And in fact, I do want to read the criteria so people can start to think about if this applies to them. But just to play off that, well, let me read the criteria first, and then I'll give an example. Okay, the core features of OCPD, it tends to revolve, as I said, around control, perfectionism and rigidity. Common patterns include preoccupation with rules, lists, order, schedules and structure perfectionism that interferes with actually finishing things difficulty, delegating tasks because others won't do it correctly, excessive devotion to work and productivity at the expense of relationships, amen, okay, rigidity around morality, ethics or the right way to do things, trouble relaxing or engaging in leisure activities. Many people with OCPD appear highly competent, responsible, conscientious, which is part of why the issue often goes unnoticed for years. And I want to add to that, that, you know, these people tend to thrive at work because they will give work their all. They're usually smart, successful, they're responsible, they're reliable. These are all things I love about my husband, and when I was first realizing that this might be something. I mean, I came out of graduate school not really understanding this and seeking to find, to figure out what was going on in my marriage that, you know, I just described Steve as like a workaholic, or the patterns of rigidity, examples like what you shared about your father. When I first discovered this, I found this cute thing that said, you know, most people because this is the right way to do things, and this is just the way people experience the world. Most people will be proud of these features. So when I read Steve, I first read Steve the diagnostic criteria, and said, I feel like this could apply to you. I read him all the things I just read you guys, and he goes, Well, that sounds pretty if that's a personality disorder, I'll take it pretty good to me, and that's what it said at the bottom. People will be like, excited that this is how you describe them. So this is what makes it tough. And like, the other day, I sent Steve a picture or a video. Maybe I can't remember what it was of one of my like, media things, and I didn't think I looked that, oh, I was next to someone else who I felt looked amazing and was like, young and gorgeous. And I felt like this old, saggy sack of potatoes next to this person. And I'm not that vain, but I when I looked at the picture, I was like, Whoa, I am definitely getting old, and like looking a little worse for wear. So I sent it to him, and he goes. I was like, I don't really look great. Standing next to her, and he goes, No, you do look great. So I wrote back, really. Like, do you really, really, do you really think so? And he goes, Well, I said, So, didn't I? And I was like,

Laura Bowman:

no softening,

Colette Fehr:

yeah.

Laura Bowman:

Like relational tone, no

Colette Fehr:

relational like, the appropriate response there, and it isn't about you have to say it just right. But to me, it's so obvious that I'm just seeking, like, oh my god, yay. You think I look good, or are you just saying that? Yeah, right. And instead he and then he writes back, well, so literal, right? He's like, When have I ever said anything? I don't mean okay. I'm like, okay,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, not, not engaging here,

Colette Fehr:

yeah. So I was pissed, and we had to have a whole conversation about it instead of, not a long one. But instead of doing it by text, I said, Hey, I was a little hurt by that, a little taken aback. And he's like, Oh, I didn't even understand. That's what you meant. So there can be a lack of relational awareness that comes with this. And this is so these things are so much more important. Like your dad saying the gutters, instead of going like, oh my god, like, you don't lead with the gutters, you

Laura Bowman:

don't lean at the gutters,

Colette Fehr:

right? Yeah? You don't tell your wife in a moment of insecurity, you know, I don't say anything. I don't mean you say, oh my god, honey, you look amazing,

Laura Bowman:

yeah. And I'm just reflecting on some of the traits that my dad had that were so interesting. And in retrospect, I go, Oh my god, that was so weird. Or part of this, like he was somebody who was definitely a worker bee, but in a way that, like he never really got things done in a productive way. He kind of went in circles. And it would take him, he was always working on his taxes. And my mom would say, like, I've never met a man who spent, like, a year on his taxes, like it was this obsessive kind of monitoring of, like, his gas, he'd like, log everything in a book. And

Colette Fehr:

that's Steve,

Laura Bowman:

and it in she said, after she divorced him, she said she didn't realize it didn't take half a day to put Christmas lights on a tree, because my dad would take the tree out in the garage and like saw the like stump down perfectly, and he'd wrap each light around like perfectly, and it would be an entire day long project for him and my mom

Colette Fehr:

Exactly. My marriage Exactly. And Steve will tell you, you know, I do things slowly Collette, where I do things like, you know, the Road Runner, yeah, and I'm not worried about them being perfect at all. I'm just gonna bulldoze my way through and get it done. And he's like, Well, I do things slowly and conscientiously, and then they're done right methodically. But really it goes beyond that. I'm not saying like My way is right. I make lots of mistakes, but it goes beyond that. It becomes where, at times, he can't get out of his own

Laura Bowman:

it becomes procrastinatory.

Colette Fehr:

Absolutely it's got to be done, so just right. Things aren't finished. So some of the you know this can show up in different ways. I don't feel like Steve's constantly criticizing me, but I want you guys to hear some of what can you can experience in a relationship. In case this is a factor that a partner can be critical, controlling, emotionally constrained, and I think this one last, but really not least, unable to compromise. And I think that has been a struggle in my marriage, and I see it in a lot of clients where OCPD is a factor relationships require. Ideally, we want to get to a win win. Both people share, and then we figure out, like, what's a solution that can feel good to both of us, that allows for some space for who we are, and because OCPD is so rigid and hardcore and right and wrong, it's really hard to be relational, which requires living in shades of gray and nuance, and nobody's right and nobody's wrong. So there's a relentless, high standard, which can leave another partner feeling like it's parent child and they weren't

Laura Bowman:

child.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

I see that for sure. Oh, I see for sure. I have a client who won't let his wife, well, he'll let her, but he it will be like uncomfortable for both of them if she drives or if she tries to do the wash, because there's a right way to do both of those things, you know? So that becomes very parent child, you know, when you're micromanaging the way the other person loads a dishwasher or, you know, sorts the lights in the jar, right,

Colette Fehr:

right? And really. Really hard when you're hearing these things constantly, where you know you have your own way of doing it and it, it can be that I think we, we can all have a little bit of that, like, oh, here do it, yeah, yeah. Or, like, here do it, like this. Or we think we've got something figured out and we want to share, but in a typical, healthier relationship scenario, you might give feedback like, Hey, thanks for sharing your better way of doing it, but I prefer to do it my way, and then that's the end of it. With OCPD, someone's going to struggle to tolerate

Laura Bowman:

yes,

Colette Fehr:

that you would not adopt their superior methodology.

Laura Bowman:

And let's also talk about so that's like the very practical sort of day to day. But there's this, like moral scrupulosity piece, which is really interesting. And when and when you see people struggle with that openly, about really grappling in a session, about, like, the right way, especially if there's been any like, religion overlaid on top of it, it can be such a mind fuck for those people, because it's like, well, what is the right way? You know, they're always trying to, like, hone in on how it should be and where they should position themselves, and there's just not a huge role for intuition or I mean,

Colette Fehr:

or people

Laura Bowman:

allow themselves right,

Colette Fehr:

or people being flawed and messy and okay, I'll give an example. I don't think it's uncommon for people to say, like, if my partner ever cheated on me, I would leave. But people with OCPD can have that kind of approach to so many things, where, if anyone ever did this, that's it, I'd be done with you. Or people who do these things, cheat whatever. I mean, I know a lot of people in society think that, as therapists, we know like cheating is so much more complex than everyone who cheats is just an across the board bad person. I'm sorry, but that's just not the truth. But there can be that extreme like, here's what's good and right, here's what's bad and wrong. So in a relationship, when you're not doing things according to that other person's set of parameters, you feel like you're in trouble or you're frowned upon, and if you have your own childhood wounds, which so many of us do, of not feeling good enough or feeling criticized or controlled, then this can feel really exhausting and suffocating. Hence why people, typically with OCPD, get into relationships at the behest of a partner. Now, before we talk about what we can do about this, I want to also mention the strengths, right? Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

because no this, these personalities get very rewarded in society, and there's some good stuff here,

Colette Fehr:

yes. Okay, wait first kids, I think this is so important. Like the purpose of doing this episode is really to try to bring more awareness to this, because it's so common and so not discussed first, let me just say one more thing that I forgot to mention, sign someone may be dealing with OCPD in a relationship, so you guys can listen and see if any of this dings a bell. So patterns like constant correcting or micromanaging, extreme discomfort when plans change, difficulty tolerating mess, ambiguity or spontaneity, and as the Queen of spontaneity that like okay, arguments that revolve around the right way to do things, and a partner who feels like they can never quite measure up. So this pretty much summarizes what we've been saying.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, although, and I also want to say that a lot of people with this temperament, but with this personality they like, are the biggest critics of self as well.

Colette Fehr:

Yes, I'm glad you made that point.

Laura Bowman:

I mean, there's a lot of like, the rumination is on what's the right thing for them to do, and have they crossed a boundary, and are they bad? And there's a lot of shame and and preoccupation. I mean, when people come to therapy, the people that have come to therapy for this, there's usually an inflection point in their lives where something so overwhelms their system and they this just starts to sputter, this because, because they can't use their rules, and everything they've tried have has failed, and they feel like such a failure, and they're so disoriented because all the things they've done to keep their life safe, it's no longer working. So that's when I have the best luck to try to deconstruct something like this is when, literally, their life just starts to not work.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a really great point, and I'm glad you said the thing about the way they're treating themselves internally, what you're seeing, if you have a partner with OCPD, is just a small slice of what they're directing toward themselves and worldly. Yeah, right. That not good enough. Now, on the plus side, these people tend to be they have really good qualities. They're hard working, they're reliable, they tend to not cheat on you, right? This is the least likely group to have an affair, to enjoy you. Yeah, they're loyal. If you're married to them, they take that seriously. They're not going to get a divorce. They're responsible. They're attentive to detail. They're conscientious. They

Laura Bowman:

know their way around a spreadsheet. They save money. They Hoard. I mean, there is a hoarding piece of this we didn't talk about. They have a really hard time getting rid of things. This is also a group that researches the hell out of everything they purchase waste so much time on the most inane purchase. Just researching. We

Colette Fehr:

got a new TV, and there was a lot like, I was like, just buy whatever. Buy one. Yeah. And he's like, let me read you the describe, like, I don't care. You care? Yeah? Yeah. I just want to watch my show. I don't give a shit.

Laura Bowman:

Does it play sound?

Colette Fehr:

But yes, you're right, and the hoarding component, but, but these positive qualities are genuine strengths that draw a lot of people. I know all those positives I just read are true of my husband, and are things that I was very attracted to and that I enjoyed to this day, like I love having a partner I know I can count on, and who's such a hard worker, and it's such a great anchor to my kind of spontaneous fun loving, like fuck it, let's just throw it at the wall and see what happens. It's a great balance.

Laura Bowman:

I feel like they find each other because, I mean, in your case, my dad married somebody who is totally opposite. In the case I'm talking about his wife is like one big ball of like, energy and spontaneity. So obviously they're finding opposite energies. And if they can, like, make that work, it's really beautiful. But sometimes it can be, like, really, really frustrating,

Colette Fehr:

absolutely, absolutely, and it is. I'm glad we're making this point, because relationships are a system, and they seek balance. So people like this will often end up with someone, whether they're all the way, you know, crazy out there, theatrical, or they're just more fun loving. They tend to be more warm, verbal, expressive, emotional, intuitive, and it's It's wild. The difference is so the good news is, and this is what we also want to share with you guys, is that people can change with OCPD. They don't have to change their whole DNA or become different people like we just said, there are all these positives that are genuine strengths, but if we bring awareness to this, and if some of these features are happening in your relationship, then it's worth it to get into conversation and see if this person is willing to work on this A little bit, because therapy will typically focus on increasing flexibility, developing more emotional awareness, learning to tolerate some of that discomfort when it doesn't go your way, learning to prior, to prioritize your relationship over work or adherence to the rules. So what else do you see in your practice as you try to help people with this? You

Laura Bowman:

know, it's so funny. I don't know if you saw the new Psychology Today that came out.

Colette Fehr:

I have it in the office, but I haven't looked.

Laura Bowman:

There's an article in there about, I don't know what it was, the angle it was taking something about, like, what really works in therapy, or what's the number one thing that's really effective? And it came down to one thing, what and flexibility is so emotional flexibility? And I it said, whatever. It doesn't even matter the modality. It's anything that can allow that I almost want to give clients like putty or like a slinky, so that they can have a tactical way of thinking about their emotions and their and their thought process. Can you go back and forth? Can you realize that everything is dynamic because

Colette Fehr:

multiple things are true at the same time? That's real life,

Laura Bowman:

right? And so, like, that's what I do with these clients, and I find that it's really helpful. Now, what it's not helpful for is they will probably always have these default settings, and so I describe it like you will always have a steering column that wants to pull to the right side of the road. Love that metaphor. Always. Going to have to mindfully over correct the wheel. So, like, especially when you're under stress, or when life gets hard, or when you just go in through a process of forgetting, you're going to pull off to these, these natural default settings, but the skills you learn in therapy can help you go, Okay. How can Okay? Maybe this is my first thought, but it doesn't need to be my best thought. What is another way of looking at this? Can I prioritize the relationship, you know? And so it's just a work in progress. But I do think these can get, this can improve, although I do think there needs to be, like, a loving acceptance for that. This is kind of how you're why

Colette Fehr:

that's that's what I've done, that's what I've done like I've had to to realize, and this is where, even though we don't love the name personality disorder, this is where it can be helpful. This is the point of diagnoses, is that it brings awareness to Okay. This is what's going on. And if I spend my life trying to get Steve to be more like me. Not only is that futile, but that wouldn't be fair to him. Instead, it brings some order and understanding. Okay, this is how you're wired, yeah, and you know, I'm wired a different way to use your metaphor. This person may have to course correct that default pull to rigidity. I don't have that problem. I'm extremely flexible, but I will have to my whole life course correct to not the part of letting the part of self I call fuck it girl, which is my you know her, well, she doesn't get to come out much anymore, and now that I'm in my 50s, but that's the part of me that's like, Oh, you want to leave on vacation right now, when I have all these, yeah, I'm off, I'm done, I'm out, I'll do anything on like the turn of a dime, and that can be great, but you can't live your life that way and actually accomplish things and be at a responsible adult. So that's my default. We all have something we have to course correct. And I think with this, the bottom line is the flexibility that relationships, first of all, psychological health is that's the most important factor. So it's not surprising. That's what therapy what's most important in therapy, but relationships require flexibility, acceptance, of nuance, vulnerability, really being able to learn to understand and sit with emotions and to tolerate not you shouldn't feel this way because I didn't mean what you think I meant. But rather, you feel this way because you feel this way, and I feel this way because I feel this way, and let's accept one another and be connected in it without causing damage to our relationship. So if this is happening for you, you know, this is something that it might be worth bringing attention to. You know? You know, either listen, yeah, yeah. And

Laura Bowman:

I think it was, You're talking like, I think, I think relationships are so good for people with OCPD because it it's better, it's like, it's better for the person with OCPD because it's forcing growth, and it's worse it has. Because the worst thing is, you let these people sort of go off on their own. And they really do sink into a very rigid

Colette Fehr:

100% when I met Steve, that's where he was after his divorce. Yeah, and

Laura Bowman:

I watched my dad, after his divorce, go down really strange rabbit holes. There was one, and he really the hoarding piece runs in my family, which I have the opposite of that, thank God I have the throwing out

Colette Fehr:

me too.

Laura Bowman:

Reaction, compulsory, like, just like, get rid of it. Perfect. Dad, in the end of his life, was like, really hoarding. And he would, this is so bizarre. He would cut labels off of like, his food. He would date everything. He would date his food like his milk, makes sense, but he would date everything, and then he would save labels. And I said, Dad, like, What the hell are you doing? You're saving labels of food. And he says, Yeah. He goes, I need to know who to sue if I get sick. Wow, bizarre stuff. So like, yeah. And that was like letting his natural sort of tendencies set up

Colette Fehr:

and and kind of start to take over,

Laura Bowman:

yeah, size,

Colette Fehr:

yeah. And along those lines, before we end, let me just say that, you know, in some ways it may, it may be really great for a relationship, because the person with OCPD is forced to grow and stretch a little if they're willing. But there is also growth for you as a partner. Because, as I say this, and in no way am I trying to throw my husband under the bus here. Because, again, these qualities are things. The positive qualities that go with this are things. Are

Laura Bowman:

good people.

Colette Fehr:

Yes, these are

Laura Bowman:

you could say you're watched by my dad. You could Yeah, like they will help you. They will,

Colette Fehr:

yeah,

Laura Bowman:

we'll show up for you. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

that's what I love. And you know, especially, I think at a time in my life where I'd really been burned by men who seemed flexible and passionate and all these other things, but then they screwed me over and broke my heart and cheated on me and did horrible things. You know, somebody like this can make a great partner, and the growth for you as a partner is in what I think I've done, which is, once I understand that this is a feature, like, I can express at times when it steps on my boundaries, but I just mostly don't allow it to like, I'm not bending over backwards trying to accommodate the OCPD. It's like, okay, you want to save 10,000 news clippings or spend all day on the TV. That's fine, but I'm out and I'm going to do my thing if you're going to choose that. So I think you can work on your own growth of retaining a sense of self, having firm boundaries that like just because your partner might have this rigidity or obsessiveness with work or whatever it may be, that you're not going to live that way. And I think that's also where couples therapy can really, really, really help if a partner is willing. But maybe it starts with just having, if you feel like this applies, having your partner even listen to this episode, because they're probably like, Yeah, I'm like that, and I love it.

Laura Bowman:

That's why we have money in the bank. You're welcome, right?

Colette Fehr:

And there's truth to that. I learned, I learned to be, become a saver and more frugal because of my husband. Like before that, I was like, if I have it, I'm spending it, yeah, and now I'm very different 13 years into it. So anyway, I hope this helped you guys with a little bit of understanding for this very common, most common personality disorder, OCPD, that is under diagnosed. Nobody knows about it. It affects a lot of relationships, but it doesn't have to ruin yours, and the first step is always awareness.

Laura Bowman:

Well said. Thank you ever net.

Colette Fehr:

All right, thanks you guys for listening. As always. We hope you got some great insights from our couch today, and we will see you next week.

Laura Bowman:

Bye, guys.

Colette Fehr:

You