Insights from the Couch - Real Talk for Women at Midlife

Ep. 108: The #1 Predictor of Divorce (And How to Stop It)

• Colette Fehr, Laura Bowman • Season 9 • Episode 108

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0:00 | 38:41

What happens when frustration quietly turns into contempt—and what does that mean for the future of your relationship? In this conversation, we sit down with relationship therapist and author Zach Brittle to unpack one of the most destructive dynamics couples experience and why it’s often misunderstood.

Together, we explore where contempt comes from, how unrealistic expectations and unspoken needs fuel disconnection, and what it really takes to rebuild trust and intimacy. If you've ever wondered whether your relationship is stuck in a painful cycle—or how to shift it—this episode is full of practical insights that will challenge the way you think about connection.

Episode Highlights

[0:03] – Welcoming Zach Brittle and introducing why contempt is one of the biggest threats to healthy relationships.

[1:20] – The Gottman Method, the Four Horsemen, and why contempt stands apart from the rest.

[5:25] – How contempt develops over time and why it's far more than simply feeling annoyed with your partner.

[7:50] – Expectations, comparison, and the hidden ways resentment begins to grow.

[10:37] – Solvable versus perpetual relationship problems—and why acceptance matters.

[13:19] – Losing positive sentiment and how couples begin viewing everything through a negative lens.

[15:50] – Recognizing the warning signs before contempt becomes the default dynamic.

[18:40] – The importance of asking clearly for what you need instead of expecting your partner to read your mind.

[20:41] – When your needs aren't being met: accepting reality, setting boundaries, and making difficult relationship decisions.

[22:08] – Why trying to "win" or change your partner often creates even more distance and frustration.

[24:27] – A memorable analogy using sexual communication to explain why direct feedback strengthens connection.

[26:13] – What being a responsive partner really looks like and why assumptions get couples into trouble.

[28:36] – The "pasta and mailbox" examples: how neutral everyday actions can be interpreted through either appreciation or resentment.

[30:02] – Negative sentiment override, confirmation bias, and why we often assume the worst of the people we love.

[32:00] – Challenging the stories we tell ourselves and taking responsibility for how we show up in conflict.

[35:28] – Practical ways to intentionally cultivate appreciation and prevent resentment from becoming contempt.

[36:52] – Zach shares his latest book, his Substack, final relationship wisdom, and where listeners can connect with him.

Links & Resources

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

Ever stayed quiet to keep the peace and felt yourself disappear? The Cost of Quiet is for anyone who avoids conflict and pays the price. Reclaim your voice, strengthen your relationships, and experience real peace. Order your copy and join the movement: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

🎙️ Love the podcast? Come talk about episodes with us inside The Midlife Chat. It’s a free, private community just for women at midlife who want to keep these conversations going. We’ve created this space for real talk, fresh resources, and honest connection—where you can share ideas and resources, ask questions, and get support from women navigating the same season.  Come join us—we’d love to have you!

👉 Join The Midlife Chat here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/795863256460970/

Order The Cost of Quiet now! Colette’s new book, The Cost of Quiet: How to Have the Hard Conversations that Create Secure, Lasting Love, launched February 3rd. Order your copy today: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

Recognized by FeedSpot:
Top 60 Couples Therapy Podcasts | Top 100 U.S. Mental Health Podcasts | Top 100 Relaxation Podcasts

Colette Fehr:

Welcome to Insights from the Couch, where real conversations meet real life at midlife. We're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you. Whether you're feeling stuck, restless, or just unsure of what's next, this is a space for honest conversations, messy truths, and meaningful change. And our midlife masterclass is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action, and make midlife the best season yet, go to insightsfromthecouch.org and join our waitlist. Now let's dive in. Welcome back to Insights from the Couch. We've got a great guest here with us today, couples therapist Zach Brittle. We are going to be talking about something I know I relate to. Sorry, honey, we've all been there. When your partner, you get to the point where everything they're doing drives you crazy, the way they breathe, the way they chew, you know. Every interaction can lead you down a negative path. And while we all have those seasons, we don't want to get stuck there because that can be a very dangerous place for a relationship to be. So Zach's going to help us unpack a lot of that today. Zach, welcome.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, thanks. Yeah,

Colette Fehr:

we're so glad. You say

Zach Brittle:

sorry, honey. That's Steve. Yeah.

Colette Fehr:

Yes. Yes.

Zach Brittle:

How's Steve doing?

Colette Fehr:

Steve is good. He was so freaked out. So Steve and I were on Zach's podcast, Marriage Therapy Radio. Yeah. And Steve never does this stuff. How'd you think he did? I thought he did. I thought he did great.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, I thought it was great. Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

what'd you guys do? Did you guys do like a couples session, or was it? No, we just talked. I mean,

Zach Brittle:

I, I, yes, I'm the host of Marriage Therapy Radio. My premise is I interview couples all the time, and sometimes couples find me, sometimes I find couples, but my my hope is that people will just get exposed to how other couples are making it work. Like I've got a guy who is incarcerated, and part of his story is that he does not have access to healthy relationships. He doesn't know what they look like, and he just listens to marriage therapy radio. He's not even doing it for enrichment. He's doing it because he's gaining perspective about that, there are other ways to do relationship than the way that he learned. And Collette and Steve are just an example of like, here's how we make it work. And one of them happens to be a relationship expert, and one of them happens to be a normie, you know. And I know that's a muggle. Yes, and they have to figure it out a muggle exactly. But I think a big problem that a lot of people get into is they get some tunnel vision about what what a relationship is and how it's supposed to work, and so they don't if they don't have examples or ideas of ways out, then it can be really overwhelming. So, no, we didn't do a therapy session. We just had a conversation about what works for them, what doesn't work for them, and tricks and tips and tactics that they employ, and it was it was delight. He was great. He was great.

Laura Bowman:

I love that. Like, what a service! People need to hear how other people do things because you do get like.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, I mean, I definitely did. I didn't really even know it, but I I feel like I have this really enormous privilege of sitting with couples from all walks of life who are dealing with all kinds of different things, and you know, by and large, a lot of them think that they're alone. They're the only ones who have this issue. Like, how could this happen to me? And I get to go, well, you're you're not alone, and didn't just happen to you. And there's lots of different people who have navigated this. So there's hope, and that is that's what I hope the podcast does. It just lets people go. There's lots of different ways that people can make it work. Yeah, it's really cool, and it's kind of like the popularity of the show Couples Therapy on Showtime. People are really interested in what goes on in other people's relationships, and we as therapists have the benefit of hearing what's happening under the hood, with so many people, and realizing there are these themes that are generalizable, but most people have no idea how other what other people are thinking, fearing, how they're communicating, and we don't always have good models. Yeah, yeah.

Colette Fehr:

So okay, so let's get into it because you know there are a lot of things that are happening with couples, but we know from the research that couples really get in the danger zone when there are certain signs present, when contempt takes hold, and when we get into negative sentiment override. So maybe you could start by explaining to our listeners a little bit about what that is that we're looking for as couples therapists.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, so that language that you're using is primarily connected to a large body of research that was conducted by Dr. John Gottman. So he's the he's like the world's best. I don't know. He's not quite the world's best therapist, but he's the world's most revered or respected or well-known researcher around. Relationships, and so he actually right now will tell you that he's a researcher, mathematician, scientist. He was not; he did not begin his career with any interest at all in helping people. He just wanted to know what worked and what didn't work, and so he created this series of this like decades-long body of research that ultimately correlated behaviors that were consistent among couples that were staying together, and then behavior that was consistent among couples that were breaking up. He got famous for being able to predict divorce, and so everybody got excited about this. Oh, it can predict divorce. He can predict divorce, and part of what was on the list is this set of behaviors, including contempt, which I actually think is the most important one to talk about because it's the most toxic, and they're called the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and there's three others: defensiveness, criticism, stonewalling. I actually think there's a redeeming value in all three of those. I think people, I think the world needs defensive people. I think stonewallers are typically doing the right thing, which is exiting a situation that if they stay in it, it's going to get worse. And you know, I want critical people in my life who can look at the world and see that it's broken, and they come up with solutions. The problem with all three of those is that when they show up in non-relational ways, it's really it's really damaging. So, as a defensive person myself, I can definitely lobby for how important I think it is for the world to have defensive people. But I also have to be relational in that process. Right. Contempt is the one outlier. Like, there's no relational benefit to contempt.

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, it's for it all.

Zach Brittle:

Contempt is a decision, and I think it is a decision, conscious or unconscious, to decide or to to believe that you're better than someone. You're better than your partner. You're better than them because you're a man. You're better than because you make more money. Maybe you're better than them because you're a therapist, maybe you're better than them because you're more evolved, more

Colette Fehr:

evolved,

Zach Brittle:

yeah, or faster, or

Colette Fehr:

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Zach Brittle:

yeah. Or or listen, literally, it's all made up. Like if you and I started to have a competition right now, about which one of us was better. If the three of us were trying to, what's better? Who's better? Who's the best? Well, we'd

Laura Bowman:

be competing on different stuff.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, I mean, and I would be like, "Oh, I know more Game of Thrones trivia than both of you, so I'm probably the best. I don't know about that

Colette Fehr:

fact.

Zach Brittle:

Well, sure, but then we'd have to like actually have a contest, right? And then, and if I didn't like it, I would change the terms. I would go,"Oh, well, I'm better than you because I can swim farther,

Laura Bowman:

right?

Zach Brittle:

And then somebody might go, "Well, I'm better than you because I studied EFT or I studied RLT, or I studied God, or I studied, you know, whatever, and it's all made up. It's just all made up, and so part of what has to happen is we we decide not to take ourselves so seriously and agree that we're all the same. We're all fighting the same battle. We're all trying to do the same thing. You mentioned it a little bit earlier. All these couples' therapy methodologies are aiming

at the same thing:

is how do we experience more intimacy at the end of the day with the person that we've chosen, and that's hard to do when you when one or both of you has any form of contempt.

Laura Bowman:

Well, where does contempt get started? I mean, in your opinion, is it because I see like women? I I work with a lot of like anxious, high functioning women that are like exceptional at their jobs, and they do get in locked in these like I'm better than place, and they the contempt comes from I expected you to be here, and now you're here.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

and they think that until the the person in their life performs at that level, it's very hard for them to give love, and it's it's a really wicked cycle. Yeah,

Zach Brittle:

I love the way you've used your hands in that thing, like in that example, because you know when somebody sets the bar here, and let's say that's at five feet, I'm setting the bar for you at five feet, and then you know their part partner is constantly their bar their partner's bar is at three feet. Like I'm, might be like I'm good. I'm good with three feet. That's two feet of like opportunity for resentment. That's that's two feet for opportunity for contempt. I'm I'm better than you by two feet, you know, and that's really hard to do. So in a relationship, now you've got this gap that you have to close somehow. So either let's say it's he has to raise his bar another two feet, or she has to lower hers of two feet, or they have to close the gap together by him saying, "I'm going to step up in these kinds of ways, and she's going to go,"Well, I'm going to get over myself in these kinds of ways. Yeah, and we could flip it over easily enough, right? Like it's say he and she and she and he or she and she and she whatever like, I'm not talking. This is not gendered. This is like when when I've set my bar for you higher than you've set it for yourself. We now have a problem. What I usually describe for people and the the aspiration I try to give them is, let's say, fine, she sets her bar at five feet. What I try to do is go, that's cute. Well, my bar is at six feet, so I'm going to clear your bar easy, because my bar is actually a foot higher than yours. And so, when they can learn how to like step up in ways that help them, kind of exceed their partner's expectation, not meet it, because meeting it is just like settling for their demands, but. Go no look. I've got I've got ways that I want to thrive and show up in this relationship, and they're actually more impressive than yours. Now I've got an extra foot because her bar's at five and mine's at six. I've got extra foot of of leverage that we can use to to cushion the the hard parts of the relationship, and that's a hard thing to teach people because you know again we're all measuring on different criteria. She could say, "I want your bar here, and he goes, "But what about all this other stuff I'm doing over here? And that has to become a negotiation in good faith between two people who want the same thing, which is for this relationship to work, even though we're really different.

Colette Fehr:

So, yeah, can you have an example of something like this, where the bar is set here, and we're we're going to have a negotiation.

Zach Brittle:

Big part of the the research, the the Gottman research, is this idea that there's two kinds of problems in a relationship. There's solvable problems and perpetual problems. And when most people get in trouble, is they're trying to solve perpetual problems. They are trying to take something that is baked into the relationship because in my marriage, I'm an introvert and my wife's an extrovert. Her name's Rebecca, and you know if we if we had a referendum on the quality of our relationship every time we go to a party, it would look pretty bad. Like if, but we don't. We have a we have an awareness that she would like for me to step up in certain places, and I would like to not in some of those same places. So, like the way we've negotiated it is, it's almost a, it's almost like a case by case basis because I'm never going to be the guy that she wants on her hip at the party, like naturally. Oh, hey, how are you doing? And it's good to see you. And how are your kids? And blah blah. I'm not going to do that. That's just I'm not good at it unless she says I need you to do it tonight. Tonight I need you to do it. And I go sure. I'm I'm comfortable enough in my skill set that I can be an extrovert for one night. We just got back from a wedding that was like it was a five day event for her. For me, it was less than 24 hours. I flew in, went to the wedding, flew out. Like I was like, I'm not doing the five day thing. But at the wedding, I was amazing. I was I was dancing and I was meeting people and I was trying to be you know butted up. But if I if she set the bar for me and said, I need you like this at every party, or I need you to be this guy? I'll be like, I can't be that guy. That is that is not my bar for how I end in a social situation. So you're going to be disappointed forever,

Colette Fehr:

right?

Zach Brittle:

But if she says,"But I am interested in being someone that you can count on, and that you trust, and that you that you are proud of having with you at a certain at this event or the other event, I can do that, and sometimes I do that by sitting politely at the table and having a polite, quiet conversation with the other introverts. And sometimes I do what we negotiated at this wedding, which was I won't come for the five days, but I will come for the 20-four hours, and I'll be the best wedding guest there ever was on the planet. And then I got back on my plane, I put my headphones on, I stopped listening to everybody else, and that was that. So it's just sort of an example of kind of switching the the point of attack. Like if the point of attack is the event all the time, then it's problematic. But if the point of attack is now we want the same thing at the end of the day, which is to feel more connected to each other, then we make compromises. We negotiate in good faith,

Unknown:

right?

Laura Bowman:

Well, then that assumes a lot of goodwill, right? Like by the time people get into like a corner of contempt, like there's precious little goodwill left,

Zach Brittle:

right?

Laura Bowman:

Of like, let me meet, let me actually exceed your expectations,

Colette Fehr:

or feeling demoralized by feeling constantly criticized, not accepted as you are, never making the person happy.

Zach Brittle:

Well, it's a little bit of a different question at that point. If you're looking at the relationship and you're going,"This is not working for me. I don't like this. The upside isn't high enough to offset the downside.

Colette Fehr:

Right.

Zach Brittle:

You can berate and criticize and have contempt for your partner in hopes that they will close the gap for you and make the upside higher, or you can be like, this isn't the right relationship for me. You don't have to stay in a relationship that doesn't work for you, but to these people who are showing up with contempt to try and solicit the change that they want, I always have just one question, which is, does it work?

Unknown:

Yeah,

Zach Brittle:

your your contempt and your complaining and your anxiety and your criticism. Does it does it work? No. Oh well, maybe we should try a different strategy. Or why don't you just not be with this person? You know, that that's allowed.

Colette Fehr:

Right, and that's the thing. So many times people are in this. Well, I don't want to leave because that's not my idea of my life, or some story they've spun about why they don't really have any power and control there, which usually isn't true. But then I want you to be as I want you to be. Yes, and if you're not, and and I think a hard part is people don't know. That they're so contemptuous. I mean, I have one couple right now where it's fascinating to me how I'll have them turn her turn to say something that's a little deeper, a little more vulnerable, a little underneath, and every time she swings back, it is. I mean, this is common in and of itself, but the the degree of vitriol, the contemptuousness, the mocking, the sarcasm-it's fascinating to behold, even in a session. And of course, I got to get in there with that. But I don't think people realize a lot of the time that they're steeped in this contempt. So, are there some signs you help people with, for like for our listeners who don't have the benefit of being in the office with us, that they may be treading into this territory?

Zach Brittle:

Well, you said something a little bit earlier that I think is actually pretty fascinating. I had this similar experience. It's this idea of my partners driving me crazy. Every everything they do is driving me crazy. I I I have this story that I tell, and I'm, I'm actually not really embarrassed about it, but it is a little bit of a weird story. Which is, I was in an argument with Rebecca, or we maybe we were just in a in a like a like a moment. I can't actually recall, but I do recall thinking to myself, "She's driving me crazy. Rebecca's driving me crazy. What happened next? I don't know how to explain to you that this like really happened to me, but what really happened to me was a little cartoon bird landed on my shoulder, like a little like like a Tweety bird, but but it wasn't Tweety. In fact, I think it was Blue. And the bird said,"Part of Rebecca is driving part of you crazy. And as soon as I heard that, my whole world exploded because all of a sudden I had options. The one option I had was to decide whether or not I wanted to focus on the part of her that was driving me crazy. Like I could decide I could go like she is being a real pain in my ass right now, or I could pick a different part to focus on. I could focus on a part of her that looked really cute in those jeans, or I could focus on the part of her that was being brave that afternoon, or the part of her that was like a really great mom, or something. I could, I could focus on that part, and I had more choices. What was more interesting me, though, is that I had this other option, which was, could I focus on from a part of me that was other than the part being driven crazy? Like there was a part of me that was being driven crazy, could I, could I check in and see if anybody else was available? Be like, anybody else available? Because crazy person isn't going to handle this very well. Then all of a sudden, I had new options. So, when contempt has taken hold, if that's part of who you are, if your if your bias is I'm contemptuous toward the world, you got problems. You got more problems, and the guy is driving you crazy, or the girl is driving you crazy. But if you can go, wow, part of me's part of me is really feeling some contempt right here. Part of me is really like, and you could check in with whether or not you wanted that guy to run the show. Like, do I want that person to be in charge right now? I I usually don't. It makes me feel gross. And in fact, contempt is unique among the four horses in the apocalypse, and that's the only one that's actually got a direct correlation to physical health. People who experience and also who deliver contempt are more susceptible to to communicable diseases than those who don't. They get sick. It's not good for you, and so

Colette Fehr:

poison. When I poison,

Zach Brittle:

yeah, when I have it, which is most often in the car, because I I can have I can easily create contempt for all these other drivers that I don't know anything about. I realize that I it makes me feel gross and I don't want to do it, and I so I try to pivot out of it, and from that place, from the adult place, I can ask for what I need.

Unknown:

Yeah.

Zach Brittle:

So if I'm one of these of your clients, Laura, who like are constantly frustrated because they're not getting because their partner isn't doing what they want or whatever, part of what they need to learn how to do is ask for what they need in a way that that their partner can hear and then their partner can respond to. And if their partner says I can do that and doesn't, well, that's trust diminishing. If their partner says I can do that and they do, that's trust building. But I think the the the best thing that they can do sometimes is to go, no, I can't do that.

Colette Fehr:

Yep, be honest. Yeah, I can't do

Zach Brittle:

that because that's also trust building.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, right. Exactly. We're not going to get all our needs met, but you have to have the conversation, and this is like contempt is so often built up from things that aren't expressed. Those hard conversations that haven't been had. I mean, I don't feel like this is my lens with the world, and it's certainly not the way I operate in my current marriage. But in my first marriage before I got divorced. Contempt had really set in, and I could feel it actively poisoning me. I didn't feel like I was myself. I remember one time making dinner, and my kids were in their like little high chair seats at the table. They were really little, and I had so much contempt for my ex husband who. My husband at the time. I remember I was making filet mignons, and I had this just like you had the bird. I had this image of taking the filet like a hockey puck and flinging it and watching it reverberate off his face.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, yeah.

Colette Fehr:

And I mean, I

Zach Brittle:

well, and what? And you didn't do that.

Colette Fehr:

No, I did

Zach Brittle:

because another part of you was wise enough. Well, but but standing over top of that stake, another part of you was wise enough to to bubble up and say, "That's this isn't going to get me what I want.

Colette Fehr:

Exactly.

Zach Brittle:

And you know, I think maybe what you want-it sounds like you did-was to get out of that relationship. Maybe that was actually the best thing. But what if we? But if what you want is intimacy,

Colette Fehr:

yeah,

Zach Brittle:

then you need to put it down and you know grieve the loss of that moment. Then later on, say, hey, this doesn't work for me. I need I need it to be different. And

Unknown:

right,

Zach Brittle:

if he's honest, maybe he goes, I'm not going to be different. And you go, great, I'm going to get divorced. I'm going to marry Steve. You know. But if he's not, then you got to suffer and you know struggle and strain and move and it's up and that's what

Colette Fehr:

happened because I didn't get to that place of wanting a divorce because I wanted a divorce I got to that place because I wanted intimacy and nothing I did or tried worked and I do think that's where when you're getting to that place of contempt sometimes it's you really haven't expressed yourself and of course we see that all the time. All of us, you know, these indirect ways of hinting, hoping somebody will figure it out, being critical, intimating, hoping that if you drop the hint, they'll get it, rather than just clearly and vulnerably stating how we feel and what we need. Or you do say it over and over, and then people don't like their choices. Yeah, right. Well, I've said it, and I'm not going to get my needs met, and then it becomes either you can accept what it is, or it's not going to work out for you.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, yeah.

Laura Bowman:

Although I see a lot of like, like I'm even watching my daughter go through this thing. She's going through a breakup, and you know, I think on one level she was really attached to the guy, but on another level, he wasn't like meeting any of her standards.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah,

Laura Bowman:

and she killed herself to try to get him to like meet her standards, and then when he didn't, or wouldn't, or couldn't, or some variation thereof, you know, it became the relationship became this big struggle to get one another to behave.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, which

Laura Bowman:

it's like if you loved me, if you valued this, you'd step up, and you know, of course, you can't. So it's like she, one part of her still is dying to like win this, yeah,

Zach Brittle:

yeah, and you know, even that language, right, is is is one. It's grandiose language. If you did this, then the and that's made up, right? Like she's made that up. This is what love looks like.

Unknown:

Yes.

Zach Brittle:

If she can learn how to say, and I don't, I'm not trying to counsel your daughter right now, but part of what we need to learn how to say is this is what I need in order to feel safe. This is what I need in order to feel open to more deep connection. This is what I need to feel open sexually. Like

Colette Fehr:

exactly, this

Zach Brittle:

is what I need, not this is what you should do. Yeah. Or if or if you did this, then that that is not a place that intimacy can thrive.

Laura Bowman:

And then implicit in some of that is like that. I hear from not just my daughter but other women. But if you valued me enough, you would. You know, like that. Yeah, that's the fantasy. Is like

Zach Brittle:

yeah, that's made

Laura Bowman:

up to express my needs. If you valued me enough, you would, and so then it becomes a self worth thing.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, I wonder what the other side of that is. The other side is something like I value myself enough to know that I need this in a relationship, and if you can't do that, please just be kind enough to let me know so that I don't have build my whole, you know what I mean. Like it does take a adult mind to do that, but it is the right thing to do.

Colette Fehr:

But that's a huge reframe. That is a huge, powerful reframe. Is instead of love should be like this. If you don't do it like this, you're not good enough. You're wrong, or you don't care about me enough. And instead of from the seat of power and agency and self love, saying, "Hey, this is what I need to feel safe, and right, it's not a pressured thing. It's a either you can work with this with me, or you can't. And if you can't be honest with me, and then I have the power to make my choices.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, it's an interesting one because I think people get this sometimes when I start talking about sex and like in sex itself. If you're having sex with somebody and they say,"Oh my God, right there, faster, right, right there, do you know what you do? You go faster, like that's what you do. You're a good lover. You want to help them feel the pleasure that they're telling you that they feel.

Colette Fehr:

Because I'm like, wait, what? I don't know what I want to do.

Unknown:

Yeah.

Colette Fehr:

At the same time, male female thing.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I imagine you would, right? If I'm like faster, you're gonna go. You're gonna respond to that. You know. And also, if I say "ouch,

Laura Bowman:

right?

Zach Brittle:

Ouch! You're unless you're intending to harm me, you're going to go, "Oh, oh, sorry, I'll do this other thing, right? And I think people get excited about like I'm a good lover, or maybe I, maybe they want to be a good lover. They just feel like it's something they should do. Somehow, we don't do that in like the emotional space for people.

Colette Fehr:

So true.

Zach Brittle:

So if your partner can say, "Hey, when you do this, it makes me feel amazing. That feels great. Please do that more. Then they go, "Yeah, I'll do that more. And then if I can go, "Ouch, if they don't go,"Well, sorry, that's just how I am. I mean, if they go, "Sorry, that's just how that's just how I am. Sorry, I'm Italian. That's what Italians do. I go, oh well, that's not a person who's all that interested in making you feel good. So don't. Maybe that's not your partner.

Colette Fehr:

Italians are very loving and interested in making you feel good. Just saying. No, I'm kidding. But it's a great point. It's a great point, right? Is that we're not responsible for this other person's feelings or needs or their happiness, but we are supposed to be responsive in healthy partnerships. And if someone is saying, "Ow, this hurts me, in a healthy dynamic, you care about that. You're not just like tough shit.

Zach Brittle:

Well, and you're also not in bed going, "Well, if you loved me, you would do it this way instead of that way. You know, usually because I mean, in in this case, we're talking about something that's very embodied, and I'm also talking about people who are like aware of how sex works. I mean, there's plenty of people who don't, who aren't attuned enough to their own bodies or their own sexuality. Like, I'm not, I get that part. I'm not trying to make this a blanket statement, but when you're when you're working on being good lovers, part of that includes being responsive to and responsible for the way that you show up. In this case, in bed with someone, you know. And I think it's not all that different if you're interested in being a good lover in the kitchen. It's learning how to hear people say, "I would like more of this, and ouch, that doesn't feel so good. You know,

Colette Fehr:

more butter, less salt. Yeah. yeah.

Laura Bowman:

But and and in Gottman's work, you know, with negative sentiment override, what's the golden ratio? It's like you have to have five positives for every one critical negative interaction. I mean, that's a pretty in relationships that move fast.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, the ratio floats around a little bit, and it's actually hard to measure. But conceptually, we all understand it. You need a five to five to 20 times more positive interactions than negative interactions, and it's because negative reactions are so powerful. I mean, it's why when you when you get a haircut and somebody goes, "Your hair's amazing. Your hair is amazing. Your hair is amazing. Your hair is amazing. And then that somebody's like, ah, I'm not into it. You remember that person way more than you remember. This is why internet trolls have so much power. It's why you know people who you know are on time 15 times in a row, but late the one time get in trouble. I mean, so part of it is really, I mean, almost being obnoxious about driving up positive sentiment as a way to protect the relationship from the rest. I mean, the the whole thing about positive and negative sentiment override scientifically is there is an imaginary line that is a positive sentiment line. Couples who are below it, this was measurable inside the research that you know they had a like an actual metric. For couples that are below that line, everything is harder. Neutral things take on a negative energy. Positive things lose their power. For couples that are above the line, everything is easier. Neutral things take on a positive energy. Negative things lose their power. And the real data is in the neutral things. Like, do the neutral things drive you crazy, or do the neutral things like feel quite nice? I bring in the mail every day because I got a little bit of OCD and I park next to the mailbox. That's a neutral thing that I do. I walk to the. I do. I do it for me. I just. I do it because it's a thing that I do. But my wife thanks me every time. There's plenty of neutral acts that if I would. My favorite one to describe is if we can go on a little bit of a side quest. I do this with clients all the time. I go okay. You want some pasta, so you start boiling the water. You pull out the box of pasta and you put it next to the the stove, and then you get distracted by whatever you get distracted by Facebook, television, other chores, your kids, whatever. Your partner walks in and sees that the water is boiling, and they take the pasta and they pick it up and they pour it in the into the the boiling water, you notice that they do this. What is the first thought that comes into your mind?

Laura Bowman:

Oh, thanks.

Zach Brittle:

What about you, Collette?

Colette Fehr:

Yeah, no, I'm like great. Can you take over?

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, yeah. Plenty of people will answer the question this way by saying,"Why'd you do that? I would have done it. I was getting ready to come back to that just now. The act of pouring the pasta into the water is completely neutral, but the sentiment that surrounds the relationship informs what it means. And so, when couples are above the line in positive sentiment override, it means we're helping each other out. When they're in negative sentiment override, it means they're they're judging me because I I let the water boil too long, and they're trying. To correct me or show me how to do it right,

Colette Fehr:

yeah, and and of course some people have their internal working models that can contribute to this too, which then creates probably more negative negative sentiment in the relationship, right? Like some people are just assume the worst. Our brains are negatively biased anyway, and it's like I'm not even saying anything critical, and it sounds critical, and this is what can make this so complex. But I love the pasta example. It's such a good neutral. Hey, I'm helping you out. Yeah,

Zach Brittle:

maybe I'm helping you

Colette Fehr:

out. Moment, right? Yeah,

Unknown:

I'm just

Laura Bowman:

picking up one more thing you can't seem to handle. Yeah, exactly.

Colette Fehr:

If that's that's the context, right? Yeah.

Zach Brittle:

Just finished a book of my own. I just finished it. I turned it in on Monday, so a week ago. And there's a thanks. There's a section in it that I call the boring neutral, and it's a play that I wrote. And I wrote this play, and it's a scene with a a man and a woman, and they are interacting with each other. I wrote it as boring, as neutral as I possibly could, like I I gave no context for what this conversation was. And at the end, it says, "If you think this couple is arguing, turn to page 36 If you think this couple is just troubleshooting an issue, turn to page 41. And the page that you turn to says a lot more about you than it does about what's going on in the in the scene, and I think that's the thing that we all need to be aware of is what's going on for me, not what's going on in the scene, right? Because the the woman who says if you loved me then, she's going to turn to page 36

Laura Bowman:

Yep,

Zach Brittle:

you know the woman who says hey we got this, we'll figure it out. That this is an interesting challenge to overcome. She'll turn to page 40-one, and that's data for her. It's so

Colette Fehr:

true. It's so true. And you really have to give people the benefit of the doubt, even if your brain tells you otherwise. That negative partner story, that interpretation, will really seize and drive these interactions.

Zach Brittle:

Well, and it might be true,

Colette Fehr:

right,

Zach Brittle:

that your partner is is is falling down on the job and is not that reliable. It might be a true story that you're telling yourself, but to invest in that story as though it is definitely absolutely true and it is it affects how you open your mouth.

Colette Fehr:

Exactly, it affects the

Zach Brittle:

next thing that you're going to say. So I really practice like when Rebecca's driving me crazy. I go okay, and then I go. Hmm, I wonder if I'm responsible for this somehow. Like, I wonder if I did this. I'm gonna assume that I did because that'll make it easier for me to open my mouth and be. Hey, babe, did I miss something? What's going on? Is there something something wrong? Tell me. You know,

Laura Bowman:

a lot of awareness

Zach Brittle:

versus what's your problem?

Laura Bowman:

Yeah, don't

Zach Brittle:

talk to me like that. So

Laura Bowman:

obviously, when you're when you're in these negative cycles, as couples who are really like flailing, get into that. Yeah. You know how is there a way that one person can begin to pull the couple out, like just deciding, like I'm really going to invest in seeing my partner with a softer lens,

Zach Brittle:

yeah, yeah,

Laura Bowman:

drive positive sentiment.

Zach Brittle:

It's it's it's it's literally that, you know. You it's literally just

Laura Bowman:

that. Yeah, I think so. I mean,

Zach Brittle:

I on Marriage Serp Radio a few weeks ago, I had a couple, and I I was sort of like rolling my eyes at them before they came on because I was like, this is this can't be for real, but I had the most delightful conversation with them. They they have been in summer camp for three decades. They they own and they run a summer camp, and so they have lots of thoughts about like how development for kids is and all that stuff. And that was really interesting to talk about. But they also have a personal practice that they have done every day for like 25 years, where they end the day by saying to one another, "Here's three things that made me happy today, and here's one appreciation I have for you today.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah,

Zach Brittle:

and the three things could be unrelated to the relationship. It could be, "I'm happy the sun came out. It could be, "I'm happy that I, you know, I ran a mile in under six minutes, and I'm happy that you know whoever won the U.S. Open or something like that. And then, and and the one thing I appreciate about you today is that lasagna was amazing, and they end they end every single day that way. And two, they ascribe two things as a result. Number one is they're very very attuned to each other. They're very attuned to one another and what makes them happy and what makes them appreciative and like the so. And then the other one is they're they are they have a practice a lived practice of scanning the environment for the things that are going right, things that that that are good for them. And so, I'm not a Pollyanna guy. I don't. I'm not like just think positively. But I am a scan your environment for things that are going well guy. And if that has to come from like an actual practical discipline that you establish because your brain isn't naturally oriented in that way. And I know these people. Had a woman I would hate to live in her brain, but she, she couldn't see it. She could not see the positives. She went to Greece. She went to like one of the most beautiful countries on the planet, and she came home. And I said, "How was your trip? She goes, "Weeds, weeds everywhere. At bus station, there's just weeds growing out. I'm like,"What about cliffs?" What about like Mediterranean cliffs and ruins and beautiful people and yummy food? She's like weeds. Okay, well, sorry about that for you.

Unknown:

Yep,

Zach Brittle:

you know. So she had to, if she wanted to, she would have to have worked a lot harder than maybe you or me to create and scan for the positive. But that is, I think the

Colette Fehr:

Carolian blue sea and yeah,

Zach Brittle:

that's the on ramp. I mean, the on ramp is how are we going to filter what comes into our brain and then what we do with it? You know. Well,

Colette Fehr:

that is the mic drop moment to end on. It's really true. Scan your environment for the positive. This is not toxic positivity or pretending things don't bother you, but it is being really conscious. Give someone the benefit, the doubt, express appreciation, and create some practices that allow you to cultivate these things. Because otherwise, the busyness of life sweeps us up. We don't communicate, and that resentment starts to build, and it can turn into contempt if we're not careful. So, yeah, very wise words. And Zach, tell everyone how they can find you and about your book and all that good stuff too.

Zach Brittle:

Yeah, I don't know. The internet's pretty easy. My name is Zach Brittle, so if you search me up, you can find me. There is the podcast which comes out every single week. It's called Marriage Therapy Radio. Different couple every week. And now that I finished the book, I'm going to lean into building out or writing more at my Substack, which is called Stuff I write, stuffIwrite.com is the easiest way to find that. And yeah, I'm just fascinated. The I don't know if you felt this way, Collette, but like I learned so much about writing. I thought I was a good writer, and then I started writing a book, which I started in October and finished in June. And the my education in writing in that time has been astronomic, like it's been exponential. So I'm interested in exploring that more, and figuring out like what is it that I really think about stuff, stuff that I write about. So that's where I'm at in the in the short term. I'm gonna

Colette Fehr:

subscribe there too because I I do a Substack every week too called Secrets from a Therapist, and awesome. I've gotten that muscle going from writing the book, also. So I feel like if I don't keep going, it'll go down. So

Zach Brittle:

I'm so glad to be done with the book, but I am kind of like, what do I do now with my my energy, my intellectual, you know?

Colette Fehr:

And what is the book called? Does it have the book is

Zach Brittle:

called? Yep, the book is called Nothing Changes if nothing changes, and it comes out in April of next year, so it's not even got a cover or like a. I mean, it's my editor has it, and she's working it out, and then we go from there. But yeah, it'll start to become a thing that I obsess over talking about in a few months, for sure.

Colette Fehr:

Yes, yes, for sure, for sure. Maybe you'll come back when the book comes out.

Zach Brittle:

100% I would love it. I would love it.

Colette Fehr:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, thanks so much for being here with us. Really appreciate it. And I love talking about this stuff. And thanks you guys for listening. We hope you got some great insights from our couch today. And we'll see you next time. Bye, guys.