Ep. 112: 10 Signs You're Avoidant and Don't Know It

Avoidance doesn’t always look like silence, shutting down, or refusing to communicate. In fact, you can be highly verbal, expressive, and even confrontational—and still be avoiding the conversations that actually matter. In this episode, we’re unpacking the sneaky ways avoidance shows up in relationships, from people pleasing and hyper-independence to criticism, passive aggressiveness, bickering, and numbing out.

We’re also getting personal about the ways we’ve recognized these patterns in our own lives and relationships. If you’ve ever thought, “It’s not worth bringing up,” waited until resentment exploded, expected someone to read your mind, or convinced yourself you’re just better off handling everything alone, this conversation is for you. We’ll help you recognize avoidant communication and start moving toward more honest, assertive, self-connected conversations—without sacrificing kindness.

Episode Highlights

[0:39] - Why avoidance is so misunderstood—and why being highly communicative doesn’t mean you’re not avoiding.

[2:15] - The “siren song of avoidance”: “It’s not worth it,” “It’ll only start a fight,” and “Why bother?”

[4:20] - When holding things in turns into overcommunicating, sarcasm, resentment, or a “victim volcano.”

[8:08] - Outsourcing emotional intimacy to kids, friends, family, or someone outside your relationship.

[11:16] - Distracting and numbing with phones, TV, work, social media, and other forms of escape.

[12:44] - People pleasing, “good girlitis,” and learning to tolerate other people being disappointed in you.

[15:40] - A practical way to build your assertiveness muscle without starting with your hardest conversation.

[19:58] - How criticizing and blaming can masquerade as communicating your needs.

[23:16] - Replacing harshness with direct, kind communication that your partner actually has a chance of hearing.

[25:48] - Hyper-independence, the “I’ll handle it myself” mentality, and the self-fulfilling prophecy it creates.

[28:37] - Shutting down, stonewalling, and compartmentalizing uncomfortable relationship problems.

[30:10] - Victim volcano syndrome and passive aggressiveness: what sarcasm, digs, and “jokes” may really be telling you.

[34:13] - Why seemingly harmless bickering—or “toxic ping pong”—can slowly damage connection.

[37:02] - Sweeping frustrations under the rug and recognizing just how many “normal” relationship behaviors are actually avoidance.

[38:52] - Self-connected communication: getting underneath frustration, naming your emotions, identifying your needs, and coming forward clearly.

[41:36] - Practicing communication people can hear, repairing when you get it wrong, and taking responsibility for your side of the street.

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

Ever stayed quiet to keep the peace and felt yourself disappear? The Cost of Quiet is for anyone who avoids conflict and pays the price. Reclaim your voice, strengthen your relationships, and experience real peace. Order your copy and join the movement: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

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Order The Cost of Quiet now! Colette’s new book, The Cost of Quiet: How to Have the Hard Conversations that Create Secure, Lasting Love, launched February 3rd. Order your copy today: https://www.colettejanefehr.com/new-book

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Transcript

Laura Bowman: 0:44

Welcome to Insights from the Couch, where real conversations meet real life at midlife. We're Colette and Laura, two therapists and best friends, walking through the journey right alongside you. Whether you're feeling stuck, restless, or just unsure of what's next, this is a space for honest conversations, messy truths, and meaningful change. And our midlife masterclass is now open. If you're looking to level up, get into action, and make midlife the best season yet, go to insightsfromthecouch.org and join our waitlist. Now let's dive in.

Colette Fehr: 1:20

Welcome back to another episode of Insights from the Couch, guys. We're excited to be with you today to talk about a topic near and dear to my heart: avoidance. As a lot of you know, I've written a book on this topic: the ways we avoid hard conversations in all our relationships, not just our romantic ones. But avoidance is really misunderstood. There are so many ways you might be avoiding that you don't even realize, and in fact, most people we see in our therapy offices don't. So we're going to call some of those out today and see if these are showing up in your life, where and how they might be getting you stuck, and of course, some things you can do to make that difference. So, Laura, I can't wait to hear what you think about this. I feel like this is

Laura Bowman: 2:08

this is an episode that I was like when I read your book. I'm like, wait a second, huh? Because I do not. Well, I have avoidant tendencies, but I do not from like just as a core style, I do not think I avoid. I'm very verbal. I'm hyper verbal, so I think a lot of women are in their relationships, and I think that we confuse being verbal for being not being avoidant. But some of I didn't realize that some of those behaviors, like yelling, being sarcastic, which people love to do, I can be quite the verbal viper, and and I love

Colette Fehr: 2:54

that verbal viper.

Laura Bowman: 2:55

We keep

Colette Fehr: 2:55

talking. I'm grabbing my book because I should have it handy, right? Since the cost of quiet is all about yes, this is exactly why I wrote the book. Like, let's just set the stage because people do not think of this at all. Like you said, so many women, most women, come into me for couples therapy, and they are like, I'm the more communicative one. Not all the time, certainly. Right when I call it quiet, I'm not quiet. Avoidance isn't always swallowing your words or being someone who doesn't say anything. But really, what we're talking about here with avoidance is avoidant behavior. It's not the attachment style. It's not fearing intimacy. It's not saying, "Oh, don't come close. It's that when a moment feels fraught, or you sense it could lead to an argument, or it's going to create some kind of disruption or awkwardness or discomfort for you to really reveal yourself, to really self advocate about something that you think might not be received, even if you're wrong, that feeling drives people into all kinds of avoidant behaviors, and it usually shows up the story in the mind, whether the behavior, regardless of the behaviors, is this what I call siren song of avoidance that your brain just automatically goes, oh, you know what? It's not even worth it. It's not that big of a deal. I'll get over it. This will only start a fight. Well, I know he, she, they won't respond well, so I'm not going to do that. And most importantly, like we think these things so in such an automated fashion, is people think to themselves, "Well, it won't change anything, so

Laura Bowman: 4:40

Why bother? Right, right, definitely. And I've had a million moments where it's like it's not worth it. You know, I have an attention deficit husband who, and if you know anything about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, you know emotional regulation is a part of it. And I have sometimes said to myself, like, I'm just going to dysregulate him.

Colette Fehr: 5:00

Yep,

Laura Bowman: 5:01

I'm gonna dysregulate him, and then I'm gonna be putting him back together, and like so many times I'm just like it's not worth it. Like that thought has gone right through my head, or I wait till I'm so angry that I am now over communicating in a way nobody could possibly hold my feelings, right? Because it's coming out like a fire hose, and I'm communicating everything and like harshly, or there's the sarcastic sort of like dig where it's like I don't want to take the risk to really say what I feel, so I'm gonna it's gonna come out sideways and mangled, and it's gonna be this shitty little thing. That now I'm gonna hope that he's like reading the tea leaves, and it and it really was your book where it's like oh that all that shit that I'm talking about there is avoidance,

Colette Fehr: 5:52

exactly. And this is where it's and because especially since we're so obsessed with attachment styles now, people are confusing it with avoidant attachment style, which is where you kind of fear too much closeness and push people away when they get in too deep, in simple terms, and it's not that, and it's not being an avoider in general or somebody who's necessarily quiet and doesn't say much. It's yeah, it's these little moments that we foreclose and we tend to not even notice. We just think, "Oh, I'll dysregulate them. This will just become a thing. I I struggle with it too because conversations around conflictual matters in my household don't always go well. Like my husband can be quick to inflame. I think even when I, if something's a hot button issue, and the reason that we want to identify these avoidance strategies and not do this and not just automatically think, oh, it won't change anything, so why bother, is that these things do stack up inside, and either they explode like what I call victim volcano that you just described, Laura. It comes out sideways. One little thing happens. It's the straw that breaks the camel's back. You've had it. All that hot lava shoots out everywhere, and the other person looks at you. You're the crazy one because your reaction's so disproportionate to what just happened? That then that becomes the problem, and your grievance never gets addressed anyway. And then you also have the experience of conditioning. Oh, see, this is why I don't bring things up because it doesn't go well. But it's how you've communicated, or it implodes, and you get so mired in resentment and animosity, and it creates so much distance and disconnection that it not only ruins your relationship with that person in the long term, but it really destroys your inner well-being.

Laura Bowman: 7:51

Yes, nailed it. Like so,

Colette Fehr: 7:54

let's go through them. Let's go through them.

Laura Bowman: 7:56

Do it. All right. All

Colette Fehr: 7:58

right. I'm gonna like even remind myself exactly because I spent a lot. I

Laura Bowman: 8:03

need to get my copy of copy. Yes, I get your copy. You get your picture on.

Colette Fehr: 8:09

It's so fun to have you know your reaction to the book, especially since you know you're also a therapist, and it's so interesting to see. This is a big reason why I wrote the Cost of Quiet. Is that I'm seeing this play out in therapy and realizing it's largely a problem people don't realize they have.

Laura Bowman: 8:32

No, yeah, no. I would have never said like, oh yeah, like I'm quiet is a problem in my marriage. Yeah, but I have. Well, it's not

Colette Fehr: 8:42

right, right? I'm not quiet either, but it's just in these given moments. So I'm on page 17.

Laura Bowman: 8:48

Okay, the

Colette Fehr: 8:49

top 10 avoidant coping strategies, and you know, focusing in on this part of the book, I tend to talk a lot about the solutions. But I think people, we really want to make sure people recognize the insidious ways these things might be popping up. So let's get into them. I'll go first,

Laura Bowman: 9:08

and we

Colette Fehr: 9:09

can trade off. So outsourcing your needs for connection, we see this a lot as therapists, and I say it's normal to crave emotional intimacy. It's a fundamental relationship need, but if it's lacking in the marriage or the primary partnership, you may naturally gravitate toward finding it elsewhere. And a big one that happens-nothing wrong with being close to your kids-but a lot of women, the primary attachment that would normally take place with a spouse or partner ends up being with the child. Sometimes it ends up being with an affair partner. I know you see this too.

Laura Bowman: 9:50

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, and and it's easy. Like it it can happen to the best of us. Like that, you have just a natural, easy connection with a kid and one of your kids, maybe multiple of your kids, and you find yourself sort of working around the partner and just creating like a small family within the family, and your needs go that way, and you're not, and it just becomes too hard, and so, or you have a friend that you're always running to for emotional support, and you're not going to the partner or a parent. Like if you're, you know, people have these sort of incestuous relationships with their mothers, or you know, and it's just a way of wicking connection,

Colette Fehr: 10:36

right? And then what we see happening is that first of all, the more. You avoid these conversations; the more, the harder it is to ever have them. But also, you're sending unwittingly a message to your brain that these conversations are harder than they actually are. You build it into much worse, and this is what I see: is people going, "Oh my God! when they say it in my office, or people who are responding to me about my book using my blueprint. They're like, I didn't think that would work. It went so much better than I thought. Inevitably, so the more we go, oh, can't really say that here. The more distant we feel, the more likely we are to overinvest and derive too much connection elsewhere. Neither of us is saying it's not good to have close friends. In fact, it's healthy to get some of your needs met outside of the relationship. But when you start to triangulate and you're talking to your kids about adult issues in your life, or sometimes, sadly, your marriage or how mommy feels about the marriage. I mean, I hear all the time people saying, "I asked my kid if they wanted me to get a divorce. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You are adultifying that child, and you're making that that that's creating an enmeshment. This is not going to be good for your kid or for you.

Laura Bowman: 11:57

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's go into the next one: distracting and or numbing. Millionaires do that, right? Like the phone, TV, alcohol, work. I mean, there's a million

Colette Fehr: 12:12

media scrolling.

Laura Bowman: 12:14

Yes.

Colette Fehr: 12:16

So this is, I think, a big one that I identify with because I still, we've talked about this. I still self soothe a lot, and even to some degree, I don't think it's unhealthy. Like with TV, definitely escaping into books. This goes all the way back to when I'm young, and it's really how I like to relax at the end of the day. But I can really avoid life with those things, they can they can take over, and I can certainly avoid. And so do a lot of other people dealing with the issues at hand by just kind of numbing out. And we'll tell ourselves it's a long day. I don't want to get into it. There's never a good time, and you can't avoid what's going on with your spouse with social media or anything else,

Laura Bowman: 13:04

yeah, it's funny how like even when I feel myself getting really activated or anxious around something that's going on in my marriage, like I will pick up the phone and I'll get even like more. It becomes like a pressured self-soothing of like I just need something to not be in this moment quite. It's very obvious,

Colette Fehr: 13:25

exactly, and a little bit of that can sometimes be okay. A little bit of like dissociative numbing, but this can really, really take over. So, okay, the next one is a big

one: 13:37

people pleasing and appeasing, and I call it good girlitis, and of course this can apply to men too. But you know, this people pleasing thing can take so many forms, and I think for so many people, I notice two things. One, people are like,"Oh, I'm a people pleaser, and they think it's like not a big deal. Or you know, I notice that people don't even realize How pervasive! They say yes to things they don't want to say yes to. They're indirect. They would do anything to avoid confrontation, especially with their closest circle. And this is really easy to do with the societal messages on women that putting your needs last is actually noble. That that's what we're supposed to do, and we've really got to flip this narrative and start to see it as not selfish, but rather true self-care and self-honoring. To say, you know what, I'm going to say no to what I need to say no to. I'm going to say yes when I won't resent it. I'm gonna have a different opinion and express it kindly and clearly, even if everyone's not gonna be thrilled. I'm gonna let people be disappointed in me. It can be hard to condition this muscle.

Laura Bowman: 14:56

No, this was a hard one for me, and I like you know I think of a lot. I see a lot of clients using what I call a charm offensive, where it's like anything to just smooth over the situation and keep things moving forward. So it's like whatever fake BS I have to say to sort of like calm the nerves and keep it keep it moving, I'll do it.

Colette Fehr: 15:20

100% Yeah, I was such a people pleaser in my earlier life, and I think some people don't always think someone like me because I will say an opinion, or I will I will rock the boat in certain ways. Like if something makes me uncomfortable, or I don't like my food, or you know, I always speak up about that. Stuff, but when it comes to close relationships, really close friends, a partner, family, I always my parents. I think I've always felt safe enough that I could push back because I think they they allow for that with me. But relationships where I think, oh, I could upset people, and I could lose being loved or liked. It's work. It's taken a lot of work. Yeah, but it's so freeing. It's so freeing.

Laura Bowman: 16:13

Yeah, it's a. It's definitely a muscle you have to work on conditioning because it's not natural. It can be real hard.

Colette Fehr: 16:20

Yeah, and I think this one deserves a tactical tip because if you're listening to this and thinking, "Well, I people please, you know, most people don't know where to get started, and taking on a really big issue that's divisive with a spouse-if you're someone who really just hates conflict-that's not the place to start. It's going to be too hard, and you'll never get going. But I really started with little things where I would notice the tendency. Just oh, I feel uncomfortable, and what makes you uncomfortable to say something is going to be different for everybody. But pick something that's like a two to four on a 10 point scale of discomfort, and even if it's not that important that it's said, just practice saying, you know, I really see this differently, or I'm so sorry. I know I told you I could be there, but I can't, and it's really hard for me to even tell you that. Believe it or not, but I'm working on asserting myself. Let people know that you're working on this and it's hard for you. It makes it a little easier and it makes people a lot more receptive because probably half your friends are struggling with this too.

Laura Bowman: 17:32

Yeah, no, that's really good tactical advice. That's good. Is that is that how

Colette Fehr: 17:37

you? Yeah, but is that how you kind of did it too? Like just starting with

Laura Bowman: 17:43

I. I I feel like I started asserting myself with my mother. It was really hard for me, and and now that I've like asserted myself with my mother, I can kind of assert myself with everyone.

Colette Fehr: 17:58

Yeah, it

Laura Bowman: 17:59

was that relationship that I really needed to learn to say, like, and even like our last phone call, she was pushing on me about something, and I finally said, like, stop, like the wait, like please stop, like don't tell me how to handle this, like you're like it's invalidating and it's not helpful.

Colette Fehr: 18:19

Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 18:20

I mean, her reaction was like fine, not great, but like it was important for me to like learn how to do that in that relationship, and it seemed like other things got easier for me from there.

Colette Fehr: 18:33

That's a great point. There, everyone's got their hardest place to do this, and ultimately, you're going to have to be able to flex this muscle in that hardest relationship, but I think that what's so interesting is that you really have to almost experientially teach your body. Your body almost feels like these hard conversations are so uncomfortable; it feels like like death, like it's just awful, right? The dread, and once your body, your your experience in your body is that oh I did that and the other person didn't love it and you know what I'm still breathing and actually everything's fine, then you start to go oh I have been operating out of this total BS false sense of what I can and cannot say that isn't even really real, and then the door starts to really open.

Laura Bowman: 19:27

Yeah, yeah, and it

Colette Fehr: 19:28

gets a lot easier. And you realize people, you can survive people being upset with you.

Laura Bowman: 19:34

I still have a hard time with this with strangers. I want to get away from strangers. Like I don't like. There's no part of me that wants to, I'll still like fawn a bit with people I don't know, just get out of the situation. But with people that are close to me, no, not as so. I

Colette Fehr: 19:53

have like a weird mixture of who's hard and who's not. I find business relationships or like I find that to be difficult. I think I fawn there. I think there's also still like a sales mentality where like your customers write

Laura Bowman: 20:10

us.

Colette Fehr: 20:10

Yeah, yeah. But I think being a therapist, where we're forced to have so many boundaries, I think really probably that was the genesis of that for me. Is that I was forced to say no to a lot of things, where normally I would have just kissed butt and gone along to save my own discomfort, because that's really what it's about. It's actually not altruistic. It's not about making other people happy. We tell ourselves that. It's about saving our own butt from feeling uncomfortable.

Laura Bowman: 20:38

So the next one is criticizing. And blaming. This is like one that, I mean, I think women can do a ton of, and they don't even call it. They don't even really think that that's what they're doing. They think they're expressing their their needs or their feelings, but really, it's a lot of you didn't,

Colette Fehr: 21:00

or you did, or you? Yeah, you

Laura Bowman: 21:02

always, you never.

Colette Fehr: 21:04

Yeah, and even if it doesn't go, so I think this is one of the biggest ones. This is probably a big part of what inspired me to write the book. Doing so much couples therapy, I hear so many of my couples, and it's so hard because I, as the therapist, never want to say to someone, "Oh, you know, you're so critical. It's really hard to get people to see, but the stuff that comes out of people's mouth about their partner, or when they turn to their partner, sometimes even after I've processed and gotten to what's more vulnerable. So let's say they're upset that their partner isn't like opening up a lot, doesn't really share. Seems distracted, disconnected. Works all the time. I'm just pulling kind of a common scenario. You know, I might hear them saying, you know, it's ridiculous. I've tried everything. All he does is work. He's on the damn phone. He's not even a part of our family. The kids are like, Dad's a total stranger. We don't even want to talk to him anymore. I mean, it's just thing after thing after thing, and it's really from a therapeutic perspective, it's a protest behavior. It's like I'm hurting here, and I don't know how to get through to you. But what happens for the other person is you're just hearing this dripping faucet of how much you suck,

Laura Bowman: 22:22

yeah,

Colette Fehr: 22:23

and it activates shame, even if the other person doesn't realize they're feeling shame. And typically, the way somebody responds to that is automatically with either defensiveness, shutting down, distancing. So you actually don't get heard, and you're not really saying your feelings, you're not really communicating. Not the way a mature adult should communicate, which is more about saying, "Hey, when you're distracted or busy all the time, I feel really lonely. I know you have a busy job, but like I miss you and I want to connect with you, and I feel like I'm trying to tell you that and I don't get through. Can we talk about it and come up with like a win-win solution? Maybe something collaborative so that both of our needs can be met. That's a completely different paradigm. When you're communicating, it should be very little about the other person and mostly about your own inner world and reaction to that little thing that person.

Laura Bowman: 23:23

Yeah, that was beautiful. It also reminds me that like critic criticism. You know, some people will tell me like, "Oh, I'm a terrible parent, and most of the time they're really not terrible parents. But like, the one thing you can really screw up your kids is by being constantly critical. It is like a relationship killer, yep. And people think it's them expressing needs and needing behavior change, and but it's it's totally it comes out very abrasive and it's very damaging to relationships.

Colette Fehr: 23:57

Yeah, and you really have this one is worth working on because criticism will never get through, it will not get your needs met, and it will damage your relationships. And unfortunately, for a lot of people, they were criticized a lot as a child, or they're still very self-critical. And the way you talk to your partner tends to be a reflection of how you talk to yourself. You shouldn't be talking to yourself this way either. It should be self-compassion. How can I grow? How can I learn? Can I give myself grace? I love myself. I'm a good person. And when we have a problem with someone else, it's to say, "Hey, I've noticed this thing. We take responsibility that even if we don't like what that person is doing, the way it lands for us is our own, and that's that's what we've got to really say. Hey, this is how I react to this. This is about me. It's not an indictment of you. And I always recommend to people, and I do this myself, when you want to bring something up, to say, Hey, listen, I want to bring something up. I'm not criticizing you. I'm not going to come at you. This is really more about me and my own reaction. And I'd really like to share it with you if you're willing to listen, that kind of a soft startup sets the stage and gives you a much better chance of getting heard.

Laura Bowman: 25:08

Yeah, I love I love what Terry Real says, where he says there's no redeeming value in harshness, like there and there isn't. It's nothing that like loving firmness can't do better, you know. And so I think harshness has to go. But

Colette Fehr: 25:24

yeah, and and I totally agree. Even though it's funny because I think he's often so harsh with clients when I've witnessed his work. But you know, he had a really abusive father, and he talks openly about that. That he works on that within himself.

Laura Bowman: 25:40

Yeah.

Colette Fehr: 25:40

So. You can you can see that struggle there, but I just want to say too, and this you can be direct. I say this all the time ad nauseum. It's the heart of my book, and when I give talks, you can be direct and assertive and still be kind. And I just think you've got to realize feedback is so hard to take from someone you really love, especially in a romantic partnership, that you've really got to come forward in a way. Yes, you can say this is hurtful to me. I'm not okay with this. This makes me feel distant from you, and I don't want to sugarcoat that. But you, you've got to be really, really tactful when it comes to somebody else's persona and character, or they just will not have a possible chance of hearing

Laura Bowman: 26:27

it. I agree.

Colette Fehr: 26:28

All right. So the next one is a biggie too: hyper independence. We both see this like crazy, especially in women. And I'm just read this from the book because I think this is such a big one, and I've gone through this in in my past too. Many women pride themselves on their hyper independence, not realizing it's a form of avoidance. Underneath that pride lurks the belief that you can't count on your partner or sometimes anyone else anyway. So why bother asking for help? Never mind, I'll handle it myself. Is the mentality, and I would even say the mantra, as you deny your own needs and thereby eliminate the possibility of having them met, and I see this a lot where people are resentful that nobody's helping, nobody's meeting their needs, and not realizing. Sure, we all secretly want someone to read our mind, but as adults, we have to say,"I need help. We have to be willing to see it as not a reflection of our weakness, and we have to be willing to be specific or recognize that we are not going to get help. This becomes a real self-fulfilling prophecy, right? 100% I can't count on anyone, so I don't ask, and then I don't get help, and it shows me that I can't ask because nobody helps.

Laura Bowman: 27:45

Yeah, and then I think also a piece of that is almost an identity reinforcing thing of like nobody helps me. I'm alone in this world, and and I alone can fix it. And then there's almost like a a pride about that. So giving it up and even letting people help you is so uncomfortable.

Colette Fehr: 28:05

Oh, 100% I mean, this is. I I agree. I think the pride in it that you often see. I mean, we both work with so many high achieving women who are so successful and they're doing it all, but they also burn out, which is why we did that episode on burnout? You know, the reality is we do need other people, and it can be really hard to take that in if you've never had anyone be there for you. So many of us are parentified and adultified as children, especially girls, especially daughters. Yeah. So you know, in adulthood, it's hard to say. Wait, maybe if I asked, somebody might meet the need. And a lot of times, people will say, "Well, it would hurt worse to ask and not get the need met than not to ask at all. But I want to challenge that. I understand that feeling, but you are anticipating, and you're you're cutting yourself off at the knees before you even like you might be surprised how responsive people are and how good it feels if you're willing to drop that protection a little bit and try.

Laura Bowman: 29:18

100% All right. So the next one is compartmentalizing or shutting down, which I think is like our classic, you know, presentation of avoidance when we think about it. It's that like withdrawer. It's that like I think we usually think of it as like a man or the the silent treatment. Like my grandmother was really good at that. She wouldn't talk to you for like a week.

Colette Fehr: 29:41

Stonewalling,

Laura Bowman: 29:42

stonewalling.

Colette Fehr: 29:43

It's terrible. Stonewalling, but also you can do this to yourself, right? Just I'm not going to think about that. I'm just going to, yeah. And this is the kind of stuff, not to fearmonger, but truly, I think this is a biggie that leads to affairs, that leads to relationships ending, even without affairs, is that we just kind of go, "Oh, I'll worry about that tomorrow, you know, or like I'll worry about that later. Like, yeah, tomorrow is another day. No, it's today. Yeah, and it can become compartmentalizing as such a useful coping mechanism in some situations. If your life's falling apart and you're a doctor and you have to go do surgery, you've got to be able to shut that off and go, you know, save a life. Yeah, but at the same time, we can start to do that with everything that makes us uncomfortable, and then we're just impermanent of.

Laura Bowman: 30:42

And I see those clients,

Colette Fehr: 30:44

yeah, like lots

Laura Bowman: 30:45

of areas of their lives. They just don't feel like they have what it takes to approach them, not just their relationships.

Colette Fehr: 30:51

Exactly. So I'm going to skip over the next one because we already talked about it: victim volcano syndrome, right? Stuffing, stuffing, stuffing, and imploding. Definitely a biggie. This is avoidance on an explosive level, and I see this with a lot of people. And I'm going to go to passive aggressiveness because that is often a sign that victim volcano is brewing. That as the hot lava is percolating, a little smoke's coming out the top of Mount Etna, usually in the form of passive aggressive behavior. This happens to be my least favorite attribute in a human being. I'm used to no. I I really I I absolutely loathe passive aggressive behavior, and I'm used to it.

Laura Bowman: 31:37

I feel like you would call it out if I was like said something slick to you. You'd be like, "What does that mean?

Colette Fehr: 31:42

Yeah, I would. I would 100% and I call it out. My husband does this, and half the time he's not even aware of it. And I'll say, "What's bothering you? That felt like a passive aggressive jab, and he'll be like, "God, I didn't even realize. But it's very obvious if you're on the receiving end. And I just want to say I used to do this a lot when I was a people pleaser and I was young, especially my first marriage, which did not end well. I would not feel comfortable saying what upset me and pushing back on certain things, especially if I felt like I was being too much or maybe I didn't have a right to be upset, which I don't see things that way anymore. And this is when you really avoid expressing your true feelings, and instead it leaks out in sarcasm, a joke that's not really a joke, the little dig, or I even tell stories in the book about this one woman who would like sabotage her husband. What by like she made his coffee with like dirty water. Like yes, yes. Little

Laura Bowman: 32:56

ways of getting back at him.

Colette Fehr: 32:59

Little ways of getting back, and you might think that sounds crazy, but this person had so much anger, and her story in her mind was that when she would try to say something, he would get defensive or shut down, and it would turn into a fight. And I'm not saying that's not true, but she didn't feel comfortable until we really worked on this, asserting herself and saying,"Hey, I'm really upset about this. And when you get defensive immediately, when I try to bring it up, I feel like I can't share anything with you. And now I'm getting more upset, and the distance between us is growing, and that's what we work to do. But she was going around doing all these like mini sabotages.

Laura Bowman: 33:42

Oh my god!

Colette Fehr: 33:42

Like imagine you could

Laura Bowman: 33:44

voodoo doll like pins that you're like in behind the back.

Colette Fehr: 33:48

Imagine like, oh hi Laura, how was your weekend? And I'm pissed at you, and I just decide to make the office coffee with water from the toilet, and I'm like, here, first cups for you.

Laura Bowman: 34:02

It's a little messed up, all right. It's a little messed up. I

Colette Fehr: 34:05

mean, that level is, but people are passive aggressive all the time. And check yourself on this. This isn't about like you're a bad person. It's very common. It is the hallmark, though, of someone who has avoidant behavior and isn't really saying how you feel. If you feel like you have that secret, like towards someone, and you're like happy when something bad happens, or you make a joke at their expense, ask yourself what you're not saying or what you're not doing. Yeah, what that

Laura Bowman: 34:37

behavior. Me too.

Colette Fehr: 34:39

Me too. So, and also just know if you're passive aggressive, everyone sees it. Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 34:46

no, you're not hiding it.

Colette Fehr: 34:48

It's not subtle. You think it's subtle? It's not.

Laura Bowman: 34:51

Everybody's clocking

Colette Fehr: 34:53

it. Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 34:54

I love the next one though because this is like something that you see a lot in, and I think in some ways we think it's cute, yeah, but it's not. It's bickering, you know. These the bickersons. It's the constant. Well, you didn't do this. Well, I told you to do like the little like digging at each other, and it's like this is what we do.

Colette Fehr: 35:19

Yeah, and I call it toxic ping pong in the book. I love

Unknown: 35:22

that.

Colette Fehr: 35:23

You know these bickering loops we get into, and you're right. It's so normalized, and people can be tempted to say, or I'll hear from people, we don't really argue. I mean, sure, we bicker, but bickering is avoidance, and if you're not careful, and this is why I call it. Toxic ping pong, because if you were to take that little ping pong ball and like you pelted it at your partner one time, it's not going to hurt that badly. It's a lightweight plastic ball, but if you keep doing that in the same spot, it is going to create damage. And this is what happens in relationships: is that when we're bickering about why don't you refill the ice machine, and it starts to turn a little jabby or something slips out, it's not ever about the thing at the surface anyway. It's about how you don't listen to me or respond to me or do what you say you will. My needs don't matter to you. I don't feel important to you. I don't feel heard by you. I don't feel successful in your eyes. I feel like a failure. Those are the attachment themes that are playing out underneath all of these bickering. So what we've got to do instead of arguing about the ice machine and going back and forth, usually in criticize defend is the most common bickering pattern. There's so much more, and if you sit with it and go, "Why am I so frustrated? Right? Everybody feels frustrated, annoyed, or irritated at the surface, but underneath that, there's usually

bigger feelings: 36:55

hurt, disappointment, longing, loneliness, shame. Get in touch with that and talk about that. You know when this happened again, that the ice machine wasn't filled, and I've asked several times. Right, we're stating it as neutrally as possible instead of, oh my God, you're hopeless. You never do a single fucking thing I ask you to do. That's what I feel like saying. But when I say when that happens, I really feel lonely and hurt and disappointed because I feel like nothing I say gets through. That's my story. I'm not saying it's true. That's how it feels to me and seems true. You know? Can can we talk about this? Now we've got a real conversation that isn't avoiding the meat of the issue,

Laura Bowman: 37:43

right? No, it's true. I you're you're right. And the last one I'll just go over quickly because I think we all know this one is sweeping frustrations under the rug, and this is like the minimizing nothing to see here. It didn't even happen. But I guess what I want to say because for me, when I like took all these things in holistically. I want the listener to hear that everything we just talked about, which is a lot of behavioral repertoires or like ways people go about communicating in a relationship, are all considered avoidance. It's not just the stonewalling and shutting down piece. This is all of avoidant communication, and I'll let you tee up that there is one kind of clear way of coming forward that is actually real communic, really good communication.

Colette Fehr: 38:34

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm so glad you said it like that. Like these behaviors that are so normalized, they really do cause damage, and if you recognize yourself, it's not something to be shamed about. It's so common, but it is something to work on because it really does ruin relationships, and it really makes you unhappy yourself. And when I'll see women 25 years and the relationship's dead, they're so embittered. It's really cost them their own happiness, not just the relationship, and you know it's going to destroy any sense of intimacy and connection. So instead of doing all that and sweeping things under the rug tends to be one of the most common presentations of affairs I see. These affairs are not coming up half the time in these terrible relationships. They're couples living a pretty happy outward life who don't argue much, and they don't really recognize any problems because they're not that huge. But they're just not talking about hard things. They're not talking about differences. They're sweeping everything under the rug. It will blow up on you in some way, not necessarily an affair, but it's worth it to do it. And obviously, I wrote the book because I give you a very detailed process. But in short, it is about coming forward. It's about first pausing to process what you're feeling. You've got to really get curious inside, and ask yourself not what am I feeling? What's my interpretation of my partner, which people confuse with feelings, right? I feel like you're a jerk who doesn't listen. That's not your feelings. Your feelings are: I'm hurt, I'm sad, I'm angry. Those feelings deserve to be named, and those feelings will help to point you to your needs. Spend a little time first, getting beneath the surface frustration and really being curious about. Wow, what's the youngest part of myself? We all have a vulnerable inner child in there. What am I scared of? There's almost always fear present. We're going to be abandoned, rejected, judged, not loved, seen as too much, not enough, right? Too needy, too this, too that. We're all afraid of those things. Get in touch with it a little bit because it's going to help you express what you need. And in simple terms, I give a detailed blueprint so that you're going to be so prepared when you go to say something, you'll feel confident. But you're really just saying, when this happens, this is how I feel, and you name your emotions, right? And this is what I need. And there's more you can say if your partner is receptive, but you do not want to live a life where you swallow that. It doesn't mean that your partner can hear it, but I'll tell you all day long I hear from people I never thought that would land, and it did. And it's the way you say it more than what you have to say. It goes a long way. Worst case, if you're doing this and you're honoring yourself by saying this is what I feel, this is what I need. You're really connected to

yourself. That's my method: 41:44

self-connected communication. And your partner consistently can't or won't hear you. You're clear. You're kind. You're you're straightforward. Then you can say to yourself, "Okay, I know I'm taking care of my side of the street.

Laura Bowman: 41:59

Yes. Maybe

Colette Fehr: 42:01

you've got some hard choices to make about what you can live with. Maybe you seek help from a professional. Maybe you decide you don't want to be in it anymore. But usually, people don't get there because both parties are contributing to this kind of avoidant communication.

Laura Bowman: 42:17

Yeah. No. It's like practice saying things in a way people can hear it because you'll get the best chance of getting your needs met, and you're gonna feel like a real live adult, you know. And it's like I think I I challenge myself to I don't always succeed because we're we're all human, but I do challenge myself to come forward in a gentle way that has the best shot of being heard that isn't critical, or I catch myself and come back and say like I didn't say that in a way that I feel like is fair to you. Let me try again. Like taking responsibility.

Colette Fehr: 42:56

Me too, and I see this as a lifelong growth process, but it is the thing that has changed my relationship with myself, built my confidence. I feel like my life is better for doing this, and most of the conversations go really well. You're always going to feel uncomfortable, but now I know. Okay, I'm going to feel uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable every time I get on an airplane. I do it anyway. I know I'm going to be glad when I get to Italy that I rode the plane, and then I'm going to be scared that I'm going to die every time the plane takes off. You are going to feel like you're going to die, especially beginning to have these conversations. But you're going to feel so good as soon as you do it, and get responded to proud of yourself and be responded to much better than you think. So, if you want more help with it, check out my book, The Cost of Quiet. If you haven't already, it's available wherever books are sold. I also have a lot of freebies on my website, ColetteJaneFair.com. I have a toolkit that goes with the book you can download for free that will give you scripts immediately. So take advantage of all those things too. And if you do read the book, let me know what you think. And it would be so great if you could leave me an Amazon review. Those help so much. And we're so grateful that you're here. And hopefully, maybe this made you rethink avoidance a little bit to see if it's showing up in your life,

Laura Bowman: 44:22

and it probably is.

Colette Fehr: 44:25

Amen to that. All right, guys. We hope you got some insights from our couch this week, and we will see you next week.

Laura Bowman: 44:32

Bye, guys.