Control Has a Name : Jezebel and Leviathan in the Church

In this episode, I talk specifically about the spirits of Jezebel and Leviathan. Jezebel was ruthless in her pursuit of power and control. Sometimes we think the story of Jezebel is just a tale in the Bible, but the Jezebel spirit still exists today. Wherever you find control, manipulation, mocking, and domination, you can be assured that a spirit of Jezebel is at work. And when it's left unchecked, it will pave the way for an even more powerful spirit: Leviathan! 

Transcript

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Welcome back to the Dissatisfied Podcast. I am Rochelle Smith. Thanks again for joining me. So today we're going to talk about what a lot of people would probably consider a tricky subject. But you know, at this point in my life, I don't see it as a tricky subject. I see it as necessary and even crucial to discuss this stuff for the health and growth of Christianity and the body of Christ. I don't think there's an option anymore to talk about these things. So we're going to dive right in. In the Christian realm, especially I would say in the charismatic realm, we often hear things like, you know, the spirit of this, or it's the spirit of that. And the reason you hear this is because as Christians, we look at things differently than the world does, right? We look at things spiritually and biblically. So we know that the spiritual realm is real, and we know that that means we are often dealing with spiritual forces. It goes back to the Ephesians 6 chapter, right? We've talked about that before. So, for instance, when you hear about things like the sick and evil murder of this little girl, seven-year-old girl, Athena Strand, we don't look at it as just, you know, the sinful, evil man that did this thing. We see it as more than that. And if you haven't seen anything about this case, I'm going to give you a quick rundown. I had not heard anything about it until recently when it was in the news. So a FedEx driver named Tanner Horner was delivering a package. This was on November 30th, 2022. And it was in Paradise, Texas. This is where Athena Strand, who is a seven-year-old little girl, lived, and he kidnapped her and he put her in the back of his FedEx truck. And there is a video of her kneeling in the back between the seats, looking scared as he's driving the truck. And it's heart-wrenching. But anyway, it then shows he pulls over, shows him covering the camera in the truck, where even though you can't see anything anymore, you can hear everything. So you can hear this little girl crying, you can hear her asking for her mom. You can hear her ask if he's a kidnapper, and then you can hear when he is choking her. And they found her body two days later. So again, this case was in the news recently because I guess it finally went to trial and he pleaded guilty, which is a good thing, but now the jury has to decide between the death penalty or life in prison. I say go for the death penalty, that's what should happen. But here's something interesting. So Tanner Horner, this guy who killed this little girl, he was on two psychiatric drugs. And I don't know why I even looked this up, but I did. So anyway, he was on two psychiatric drugs. One is fluoxetine, which is commonly known as Prozac, and the other one is called Adomoxetine, commonly known as Stratera. Now, I went further to look some stuff up about this, and I went to Mayo Clinic's website, and Mayo Clinic's website actually states that using Prozac, which he was on, is not recommended to use with atomoxetine, which he was also on. Because mixing those two medications can cause suicidal ideation and homicidal ideation. You know, I don't think we talk about the dangers of psychiatric drugs enough. I really don't. It's probably a conversation we need to have at some point because I think there's a connection sometimes with this stuff. But prosecutors in this case, they ended up playing some phone calls that happened between the murderer and his family when he was in prison. And during one call, his mom asked him what happened. And I'm just going to read this conversation. So she says, What did you do? Did she die on her own? His mother asked. No, Horner admitted. Oh my God, his mother exclaimed. I know, Horner said. She also asked him whether he SA'd Athena. I have to use that instead of the other word because I don't want to get flagged. Tanner, I just hope you didn't do nothing weird to that little girl, his mother said. I didn't, he said. Okay, I didn't think you did. I just know how you get, his mother said. Well, actually, with my medication, I barely even have a libido, as it is, Horner said. And then in a conversation that he had with his grandmother, he once again denied SA ing, the little girl, but his grandmother asked, Are you remorseful, Tanner? How can I not be? he replied. I haven't been on my medication for the last few weeks and I'm feeling emotional. Okay, so what's that telling us? I I think it's pretty plain and simple. It's telling us that being on those meds probably made him feel nothing. And that's not normal. I've had family members who were on those types of medications in their life, throughout their life, who said that they would rather not be on them because it made them feel like zombies. And they'd rather feel something instead of nothing. So again, this that's a conversation for another day, but I think that's something that we need to be aware of. But as Christians, we look at something like this case and we can see the spiritual components to it. Because there are spirits at work. There's no doubt about it. And one of them is a spirit of murder. In John 8.44, Jesus said of the devil, he was a murderer from the beginning. So a heinous act like this is a spirit of murder, completely demonic. Whether the psychiatric drugs opened the way for those spirits, you know, to come in and influence this guy, that's a topic that we'll discuss at some point. But, you know, there's things like this that are clearly and obviously demonic. You don't have to really decipher much to know that it's demonic. Because even people who have no faith at all tend to call things like this evil. But this is an extreme example of looking at the spiritual side and identifying demonic spirits. But then we have things that are not so obvious, that seem to be really overlooked a lot. They seem to be brushed under the rug. And there are evil, destructive things at work within God's church that many people are way too fearful to address and talk about openly because of fear, because of backlash. And one of the things we hear a lot about in the church realm, especially I would say the charismatic realm, is the spirit of Jezebel. Have you heard that before? Or have you heard somebody say something like, oh, she's a Jezebel, or that's a Jezebel spirit? And what's happening when we do that, we are trying to identify certain traits in people, and then we compare them to what we find in the Bible. We're trying to put a label on things because we're trying to understand what's at work. So we read about Jezebel in the books of one and two kings. And here's what we know about Jezebel from the Bible. So Ahab was the king of Israel, and he married Jezebel. But Jezebel was a worshiper of Baal. And Baal worship included cultic prostitution, sexual rituals, and human sacrifice, often of babies. So what happened is Jezebel led the nation of Israel into Baal worship. And the Bible says that there were 450 prophets of Baal. And so Jezebel was actually hell-bent on destroying the prophets of God. So I would encourage you just to go read one and two kings, read about all that story. It's pretty good. Not pretty good. It is good. It's the Bible. But as you read these chapters in the Bible, you're going to find these traits about Jezebel. She was domineering, controlling, unrepentant, mocking, and she was ruthless in her pursuit of power and to get what she wanted. Those are some of her traits. And then if you go to Revelation chapter 2, Jesus gives a warning to the church at Thyatira, and he says, You have been tolerating this woman Jezebel, who was leading people into sexual sin and idol worship. Okay, so we see this name again. We see this Jezebel name again in Revelation chapter two. Now, is Jesus speaking of the same Jezebel from the book of Kings, or is it someone else named Jezebel? Well, most scholars believe the name is symbolic in this instance. So Jesus could have used any name, right? But he used the name Jezebel. So I think that there is a correlation between the spirit in Thyatira, in the church at Thyatira, and the Jezebel in the book of Kings. So I know we have to be careful because I do feel we throw these things around too flippantly sometimes. We tend to overuse these terms sometimes. So when we mention the spirit of Jezebel, we are talking about someone who consistently exhibits those traits of Jezebel that we talked about. It's kind of like it just seems that's who they are, that's how they live their life. And here's what we need to remember about this. Jesus was addressing the spirit inside the church, not outside of it. This was something he was talking about that was going on inside the church. Does it exist outside the church? Yes, it does. But Jesus was saying, hey, I'm talking about you guys, my followers. You're tolerating this inside amongst believers. So Jesus said that is what he was holding against them. So it's not a good thing to tolerate that stuff. And I believe that I have seen that spirit operating in the church before. So I'm going to give you a little rundown. So in 2023, I went through a mentorship with Tracy Eckert, and she and her husband passed her a church in Texas. And I believe it was a total God thing. I had never heard of this woman before, but somehow I just stumbled across her Instagram page and I saw that she was doing this mentorship. So I read about it, and it was not cheap. So at first I thought there's no way I'm going to be able to do this. But I just knew that I was supposed to. So I talked to Jared and he was super supportive and he just said, yes, do it, because he felt the same way about it. So this mentorship was nine months long. It was super detailed, very involved. We even had a graduation for it in Texas, which was amazing. And it truly was one of the best things that I've ever done for myself. So thank you, Tracy, for the mentorship. But during this mentorship, I noticed that my friend, who was one of the leaders at the church I was at, she never asked me about it. And when I would mention it, the few times I mentioned it, I could sense that something was off. It was almost as if she didn't want to hear about it. And I didn't understand it because, you know, as a church leader, as a friend, don't you want the people you're leading to grow and learn and become stronger Christians? Wouldn't that be part of it? I mean, you'd think so. Well, this friend, this leader, finally said out loud why it bothered her. And she said, It just feels like you're doing a lot outside of the church. Those were her words, meaning the church that they lead. She thought it felt like I was doing a lot outside of the church, which was funny because it was literally the only thing I was doing for myself that didn't involve their church. So I found that very odd and honestly concerning. So I just thought, you know, when we as friends and Christians can't cheer one another on in our pursuits of growth and learning and, you know, growing in Christ, that's a problem. And so I realized that this was because of control issues. Because this mentorship was outside their canopy of control. So that means I was outside their canopy of control. And I'll tell you this: once you begin to recognize that the environment you're in is controlling, it's just like duct tape gets ripped off your eyes, and everything starts to come into view. You start to look at things that happened in the past, past behaviors and situations, and you think to yourself, how did I not see that? Because everything just starts to come into focus, and you realize, oh, this is the way it's pretty much always been. I just had blinders on. And then when you leave a church that has those types of issues, control issues, especially if you're someone who has been there for a while and served, there will be backlash. And that is a sign of a Jezebel spirit at work. Is the person Jezebel? No, because our battle is not against flesh and blood, right? So the person is not Jezebel, but somewhere at some point in time, that person came under the influence of it and submitted to it. So we left that church, which I talked about in a previous episode. And a few months after I left, I went to a women's conference in Texas that Tracy Eckert, the woman who I did the mentorship with, she was having this at her church. So two friends went with me, and one of those friends was still at the church I left. So she was one of the only ones who had no problem staying friends with me. It was a miracle because it was the type of situation where, you know, we were told that we were divorcing the family. So therefore, we were basically cut off. But this friend, you know, she's a grown woman who's walked with the Lord for a really long time and she doesn't play those games, which I was so thankful for. She stayed my friend. And, you know, I didn't play those games either. So I had no problem with her. But she loved that church and she would often say how she knew it was where God wanted her. She felt called there. So there was no pressure from either of us to try to change each other's view on it. I didn't care about it. I was like, you be you, I'll be me, and we can love each other. We just wanted to stay friends because, you know, that's the normal thing to do. That's what being a healthy Christian looks like. You can leave a church and stay friends with people. That's what it should look like anyway. And also, this woman is she is one of the most faithful prayer intercessors that I've ever known. So any church would be blessed to have her. I love that she's somebody who fights for me and prays for me. But anyway, we went to this conference in Texas and it was amazing. We had the best time together, the best time at the conference. But at the end of our time together, I started to feel like I needed to tell her something as a bit of a warning because of what I had gone through and the things that I had witnessed. So I said to her, I said, Hey, I feel like you need to know that when you go back to church and when X finds out that you are with me, she's not gonna like that. I'm gonna just so you know, I'm gonna use X for the person's name. So I told her this. And I knew this was gonna happen because I had become enemy number one when I left. Remember, it was said of us that we were listening to demons. They were telling people in the church that we left because we were listening to demons. So we were enemy number one. We were dangerous. But when I told my friend this, my sweet friend, she said, No, that won't happen. It's gonna be fine. Well, Sunday came and X came up to my friend after service to ask how the conference was. And so she said it was really great and told her a little bit about it. And then she said, I was actually with Rochelle and Jenny, and we had a great time. And my friend said that the moment that my name left her lips, X's facial expression changed and she walked away in a hurry. And then the next day, my friend received a text message from X, which said, We would like to meet with you. I feel you've been secretive and manipulative. Can you imagine? Here's my friend who has been a faithful attendant at this church for seven years, calls it her home church. She's there early on Sundays, praying over every chair. She serves in ministry, and this is the kind of treatment that you get because you mentioned someone's name that you don't like. So this was a complete shock to my friend. She never could have imagined being accused of those types of things. And so over the next few days, there was a series of texts and emails between her and the leadership at this church. But my friend stood her ground and ultimately, because of what was being exposed and what she was seeing, she just never went back to church there. And it was an extremely painful experience and process for her to go through because, you know, when you're being accused of things that are lies, that's that's hard. That's difficult. So let's just recap this. Because my friend was with me, because she was in proximity to me at a Christian women's conference, and apparently because she didn't inform X of every detail of her life, she was accused of being secretive and manipulative. Why? Because I'm the enemy, and they want to control who in their camp associates with me. Again, very culty, very culty stuff. But it's also a sign that a Jezebel spirit, one that dominates controls and is ruthless in her attacks to gain power and get what she wants, is at work. So here's what happens with people who have issues with control and manipulation. They become paranoid. They become paranoid. And instead of doing what a mature, healthy leader would do, which is to have a conversation with the person, she should have had a conversation with my friend on the spot. But instead, X made assumptions based on her own paranoia. Because in her mind, I was bashing the church and trying to get my friend to leave, but I wasn't doing any of that. And in fact, my friend had no intention of ever leaving. She would have still been there. So X, in her paranoia and her fight for control, actually caused the problem she was trying to prevent. It's absolutely insane. And it is a demonic, swirly type of thing that people come under. And listen, when you come under this type of an attack within the church or from church leaders, it is nothing to make light of. This is a very intense mental battle that comes with it because of the slander and the lies and the twisting of words and the attacks. I mean, to be blatantly lied about is one of the worst things to go through. And to be tossed aside like nothing after serving in a church, building friendships, being faithful to the people and to the place, it's diabolical. It reveals how extremely toxic that environment is. And there's other environments like that all around. And what happened in the weeks that followed just revealed even more of that control. Controlling Jezebel type spirit operating in that place or on that person. So X went as far as to recruit a person on staff at the church to contact my friend's grown daughter, who is not a Christian and who does not attend any church. So they contact my friend's daughter, and this person meets her for coffee, and she proceeds to tell the daughter that my friend is being manipulated and led astray by Rochelle. That I pulled her out of the church. And then she also told her that she was there on X's behalf and would be sharing their conversation with her. How weird is that? How creepy is that? These people create their own drama. People that have control and manipulation issues, they create their own drama because that's where they thrive. But this caused a whole lot of issues between my friend and her daughter for a few weeks. Thankfully, after some conversations and some time, the daughter realized that her mom was telling the truth. So it ended up being fine. But only somebody with extreme manipulative and controlling behavior does that kind of thing. And unfortunately, it's not that uncommon in the church realm. There's issues, people. There's issues that need to be addressed and talked about. We think that we're safe from demonic oppression. We think we're safe from influences by demon spirits because we're inside the church. That's not the truth. They love to come in the church and wreak havoc. And here's the truth. You know, you have someone like X who honestly is a friendly, kind person who I do believe loves the Lord, but when she feels like something or someone is not lining up with her, or she feels threatened by someone, or something, you know, that is outside of that canopy of control, that's when you'll see those Jezebel traits manifest. And I do believe that an entire church can be under the influence of those things of controlling and manipulative spirits. But it can be confusing because most of the time those behaviors are masked or they're well hidden. So, you know, we can see so much good in places like that. You know, I believe that they're still good. The Lord can use anything, anywhere, anytime, to impact his kingdom and to impact people's lives. So it's not even that I don't feel that God is working in that place, but the problem is when you start to hand yourself over time and time again to these types of harmful behaviors or decibelic, you know, traits, it begins to bleed out on everybody else. And sometimes it corrupts the entire batch. And an example would be this. If you took your kids to a playground and you knew that there was a rusty, exposed nail sticking out somewhere on the playground, but you didn't know where, are you still gonna allow your kids to run around and play and take the chance that they step on it or fall on it and get hurt? Probably not. You're probably gonna say, let's go to a different playground. Let's find somewhere else. Because even though the playground looks nice and you could even have fun on their equipment and find some joy sliding down the slide and playing with other friends, you don't want to take the chance that you get stuck by that nail, knowing that it's there. And it's the same with this. You know, poison doesn't stop being poisoned just because it's mixed with something good. If I gave you a glass of water, and all, you know, you just see the water, but I said, hey, I I did put a drop of poison in that. Are you still gonna drink it? I mean, it's still got the good stuff in it, it still has the water in it. The water's good, it's gonna hydrate you, but you know it has poison in it. Are you still gonna drink it? No, you're not. So we know that demonic spirits exist, and the reality is they can influence all of us. Every one of us can be influenced by a demonic spirit. That's why we have to stay very self-aware. And along with that, we have to be willing to humble ourselves before the Lord so we can actually see where we need his help or where we need deliverance. Here's the thing: if you are hurting people and you don't feel bad about it, or somehow you feel justified in it, that is a sign that you might be dealing with a spirit that is not of God. And I have seen this happen with people. I have seen people hurt other people time and time again, and they don't feel bad. They justify their behavior. Okay, moving on. I want to talk about another spirit that the Bible talks about, and that is Leviathan. Have you heard about Leviathan? Honestly, it's only been in the last maybe five years that I've heard more about Leviathan. So you find this in Job chapter 41, and verse 34 says, Leviathan sees everything that is high. He is king over all the sons of pride. Leviathan sees everything that is high. He is king over all the sons of pride. So where there is pride, there is Leviathan. I would really encourage you to go read that entire chapter. It's all about Leviathan, and this thing is nasty. It's so destructive. And I'm going to read verses twenty-five through twenty nine just to give you an idea. It says when he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid at the crashing. They are beside themselves. Though the sword reaches him, it does not avail, nor the spear, the dart, or the javelin. He counts iron as straw and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee, for him sling stones are turned to stubble. Clubs are counted as stubble. He laughs at the rattle of javelins. So what is this Leviathan thing? What is it? Well, Bible scholars have various interpretations of what this thing is, so some think it's just a mythical creature. Others think it's a real earthly creature, and others believe it's an earthly creature, but that it also represents a spiritual force. And that's actually my opinion. I think it's an earthly creature who also represents a spiritual force. And that's why you will also hear things about the spirit of Leviathan. And according to those verses above, it's not something a human can fight. There's nothing we can do to take down Leviathan. No matter what somebody was trying to do to battle it, it didn't matter. So we are not meant to battle that spirit. Just a heads up. You're not meant to battle it. So the question is, where might you find this Leviathan spirit at work? Well, the government is one place. Hollywood is another place. It would not be hard to find that spirit at work, but we are talking about the church. So it is my opinion that where you find a spirit of Jezebel, you will also find a spirit of Leviathan, because they work in tandem. So remember it says Leviathan is king over the sons of pride. And people who are controlling and manipulative have pride issues, like deep seated pride issues. So in church leadership, if there is a Jezebel spirit in operation that does not get dealt with, it will eventually lead to this Leviathan spirit. And you will find it in places where there is no real accountability system set up. You'll find it in places where leaders have surrounded themselves with yes men. And anybody who tries to bring some accountability or even question anything will be accused of being divisive or difficult. Also, in those environments when people try to confront issues, they will be accused of having a Jezebel spirit by the actual person or people with the Jezebel spirit. It's literally the ultimate form of gaslighting. So on top of control, manipulation, and unrepentance, you will start to see it go to another level with the assassination of people's character, with slander and lies. You will literally see attempts to destroy the lives of anybody who dares to take a stand against it. And it's not a joke. This battle is real and its ultimate goal is complete destruction. And when you are a victim of these types of spiritual attacks that unfortunately come through people, you have to go to the Lord. You have to call on him. Because there are times that we're supposed to engage in the battle. Yes, of course. There are times we should speak up, like I'm doing now. But there are certain situations when the battle is the Lord's. So two Chronicles, chapter 20, the nation of Judah was about to be attacked by this huge army, they were totally going to get slaughtered, and it says this do not be afraid, don't be discouraged by this mighty army, for the battle is not yours but God's. Tomorrow march out against them. You will find them coming up through the ascent of Ziz at the end of the valley that opens into the wilderness of Jerul. But you will not even need to fight. Take your positions, then stand still and watch the Lord's victory. He is with you. Do not be afraid or discouraged. Go out against them tomorrow, for the Lord is with you. So even though the battle was not theirs, even though the battle was God's, they still had to go march out against their enemies, and they had to take their positions. And I was thinking through this, and here's a few of my thoughts. God could have wiped out that army, no problem, without the men of Judah ever showing their faces. So why did God still have them march out and take their positions if they were not going to fight? And here's what I thought. It's because presence matters. Your presence matters. There are times when it's completely in God's hands, but your presence is still needed. It is needed in prayer, it is needed in worship, and it's needed to stand against the intimidation and the fear that the enemy is trying to throw at you. So in verse 21, it says, After consulting the people, the king appointed singers to walk ahead of the army, singing to the Lord and praising him for his holy splendor. This is what they sang Give thanks to the Lord, his faithful love endures forever. At the very moment they began to sing and give praise, the Lord caused the armies to start fighting among themselves, and then they began attacking each other. Not a single one of the enemy had escaped. So to me, that looks like their position, their position was thankfulness and praise to the Lord. That was the position that they took. And you know, I believe when you are up against a Jezebel or Leviathan spirit or both, it's a battle that is the Lord's. You will still need to march and take your position. You will need to be present through prayer, praise, and thankfulness, but God will fight for you. And I am not bitter. I want to make that clear. I am not bitter. I am not unforgiving. In fact, I have forgiven the people who hurt me and hurt my family. But last year, there was another level of attack that came, which was targeted at one of my children. And never in my life have I experienced something so evil and demonic, to be honest. And this story will be shared someday by my son. It's his story to really share. But when one of your children is wrongly accused and attacked by someone who presents themselves as a Christian leader, that unlocked something in me that I didn't know was there. It really did. It exposed a whole new battlefield to me. And I am still learning how to take my position. I am still learning how to let the Lord fight because sometimes I want to take it into my own hands and kick some butt. Because I want justice. I want vindication for the slander and the lies and the false accusations. And did you know what? That's okay. And I talk to God about that all the time. And you know what? I know that he's my vindicator. I know that he will fight for me. But I'm honest with him and I tell him, Lord, I want vindication. I want justice. I want there to be consequences for the people that move and operate in this type of wickedness. But the battle is the Lord's. So I will continue to march out. I will continue to take my position and let God fight for me. But we have to stir up our faith. We have to trust in the Lord's goodness, faithfulness, and his timing. That's what I'm trying to do. So if you have ever experienced similar situations or if you've been affected by these types of controlling abusive environments, feel free to reach out to me with any questions. You can email me at dissatisfiedpodcast at gmail.com. And I would be happy to chat or answer any questions you might have about some of the stuff. So thanks so much for listening. I hope you join me next week.