A Time To Speak: Manufactured Presence and Deceptive Light

In this episode, I share some of my experiences in churches where spiritual language and worship were used to stir emotions and influence people's responses. I discuss how manipulation can sometimes be disguised as spirituality, and how some church environments can make people feel like they aren't getting it right if they don't respond in a certain way. I also share a personal story about a time when I used manipulation to get a response. I'm not proud of that one! I hope you enjoy this episode. Thanks for listening. 

Transcript

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Okay, here we are again. Welcome back to the Dissatisfied Podcast. I am Rochelle Smith, and I appreciate you tuning in to hear what I have to say. I know I say that a lot, but I do mean it. I really appreciate anybody who is listening. And today we're going to start off with a scripture. It's Ecclesiastes chapter 3, verses 1 through 8. And this is a scripture that the Lord brought to my mind several days ago. So I've just kind of been dwelling on it and thinking through it, and I wanted to share it. So starting in verse 1, it says, There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heavens. A time to be born and a time to die. A time to plant and a time to uproot. A time to kill and a time to heal. A time to tear down and a time to build. A time to weep and a time to laugh. A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to scatter stones and a time to gather them. A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. A time to search and a time to give up. A time to keep and a time to throw away. A time to tear and a time to mend. A time to be silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate. And I know we've probably all heard this scripture many times in our Christian lives. And I think there's even an a song from the 1960s, maybe the 1970s, based on that scripture. It's called Turn, Turn, Turn. I don't know if that's the title. You probably know what I'm talking about. But anyway, the Lord brought this scripture to mind several days ago, and I've just kind of been dwelling on it, thinking through it, and I realized, you know, this really does apply to me in this season. Because I realized I spent over two years staying pretty quiet about me and my family's experience of coming out of that toxic church that we were in. You know, of course, we shared stuff with family and some close friends, but other than that, you know, we weren't shouting it from the rooftops. Even though by worldly standards, we would have been justified in doing so because when we left, we were immediately accused by leadership of that church of trying to pull people out. You know, it was said of us that we were listening to demons. There was just constant accusations and slander. So by worldly standards, we would have been justified, just letting everybody know what was going on all the time, naming names. But we didn't. We stayed fairly quiet, primarily because we felt strongly that the Lord was telling us to be quiet and to be cautious and to wait on him. And then this past fall, something else happened to my family, and the root was this toxic church that we left, and something shifted in me. And I knew that it was time, that it was time to speak, that it was time to scatter some stones, that this is a time to tear down, and honestly, it's even a time to hate. And I do not mean to hate people. That's not what this scripture is even about, is hating people. So I don't hate anyone. What I mean is it's a time to hate the wickedness, the manipulation, the slander, and the targeted attacks. It's okay. This is the time to start hating those things. And a lot of us have experienced things like that. It's a time to hate that much of the church has been infiltrated by unhealthy, unhealed, toxic leaders who are under this delusion that they're building God's kingdom when in reality it's really just their own version of his kingdom. So basically it's just theirs. They're building their own kingdom. It's a time to hate that. It's a time to hate that droves of people are inside that type of system and they have no idea. They can't see it. And I'm speaking from personal experience. I was in that type of system. And you can't see it because there's all these feelings and emotions and tears and there's goosebumps that stir the soul. And we think it's because the Holy Spirit is moving, but in reality, sometimes it's just the lights and the fog and the music and the talent and the charisma. And I'm saying sometimes because God can move anywhere he wants to move. You can encounter the Lord anywhere. But I'm just gonna say this that in high control, manipulative Jezebel environments, a lot of what you're feeling is manufactured. It's a smokescreen. And again, I'm gonna clarify. I'm not saying that that's the case all the time. Sometimes you're gonna encounter the Holy Spirit when you're in those environments because God is good and He's gonna touch the hearts of his people. And the reality is that that type of manipulation and control can operate really anywhere. You know, it can operate in a church that's charismatic or one that isn't. But I'm just gonna speak from my own personal experience. And I believe that certain atmospheres combined with certain spiritual language and the use of music to manipulate emotions can cause us to mistake our own feelings for the presence of God. And hear me out. I'm 100% all in for amazing worship music. God created music, I love worship music, and I have absolutely encountered God's presence in worship. So this is not me bashing worship. I'm just saying that there is a difference. There's a difference when it is a Jezebel-controlled church, and the agenda is not for you to encounter God. The agenda is to create false encounters with a false spirit. So you keep going back for more because it's training you to experience God in the way that's being manufactured. That's why in those environments, you will hear things like this over and over again. And many of you are going to know what I'm talking about. So you'll hear things like, God is in this place. Can you feel the Spirit? He's moving right now. The presence of God is here. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with saying those things, but it's how it's used sometimes. So hear me out. I've even heard preachers say things like, the presence of God is so strong in this place. And if you can't feel it, you must not even be alive. I've heard that come out of people's mouths, or something similar. So basically they're saying there's something wrong with you if you don't feel what I'm feeling. Also, have you ever been in a church service where there's an altar call? I'm sure you have. And hear me out, I am not against altar calls. I think that they are a good thing, especially when it comes to praying for people's healing or praying for deliverance, things like that. And as the church, we're supposed to do that. We don't need an altar call to pray for people's healing and deliverance, or just to pray for people. But I think sometimes altar calls are used as a manipulation tactic. And I know that this conversation might sound harsh, but it's just the truth. I've seen it enough and I've experienced it enough. So maybe unknowingly they're doing this, but they'll say things like, you know, if you want more of God, or if you want to be a vessel of the Holy Spirit, and they'll say those types of things. They'll say, you know, if you want that, come to the altar right now. And then as people are going forward and coming up to the front, sometimes you're going to hear the preacher say things like, you know, you don't want to miss this opportunity. God has so much more for you, things like that. I've been in several churches that do that, or conferences or wherever. And here's the problem with that. The Holy Spirit does not move the same way in all people at the same time. And maybe occasionally that happens, but it's rare. Usually the presence of God is not going to affect everyone the same way. And we should never be making anyone feel like they are somehow going to miss out on what God is doing because they don't walk up front. There have been times where I'm in my seat and there's a beautiful thing happening up front at the altar. And it turns into one of those things where it's almost like this pressure for anyone who's still remaining in their seat to come up front. And if you don't get up there, you're going to miss this blessing or this special thing that God's doing. And the reality is, I wasn't staying in my seat because I'm opposed to anything that's happening up there. I'm staying in my seat because I did not feel moved by the Holy Spirit to get out of my seat. I've also experienced it when there's an assumption made from the stage that if you don't have your hands lifted or you're not physically moving during worship, that that means you are somehow closed off to the Holy Spirit and what God is doing. And that's definitely not always the case. Are there people that are closed off to the Holy Spirit? Yes. But leave that to the Lord to move them. I've literally been in worship where I am completely still, my eyes are closed, and the Lord is speaking to me, and I feel his presence very strongly and near, and I'm being moved in my spirit, and all of a sudden, that is interrupted by a voice on a microphone trying to confront that people aren't singing or that they aren't participating or they don't have their hands lifted. And it's this type of rebuke coming from the stage because people aren't interacting in the way that they want them to interact. Or they're not participating in how they want them to participate. And I think, well, what does that even mean? Participating in worship? What kind of participation do you want? Because I was participating in what God wanted to do in me, even though my eyes were closed and my body was still and my lips weren't moving. I was experiencing the presence of God. And then that was interrupted by a rebuke. So I think that some people get caught up in this moment where they're looking out and thinking that it has to look a certain way from the congregants, especially, you know, in the charismatic church. But what happens is then these leaders, these worship leaders or these pastors, they're basically saying, you know, you people aren't participating in my idea of what worship should look like right now. And when you get down to the root of that, that really is just reflecting on their ego. And again, I'm trying to be nice, but I've just seen it too much. And to be honest, I'm going to confess something. I did that a few times myself. And it's embarrassing to even tell you that. So I was on the teaching team at the church that we left, and there were a couple of times that I used that type of language to try to stir people up to be more verbal or expressive. Because the truth is that when you're up on stage or when you're up on a platform and you have a microphone, you know, our flesh does get in the way sometimes. So it's not fun if you're delivering a message or a teaching where you're not getting a lot of interaction. It's nice when people talk back or, you know, you get some sort of interaction. So our flesh will get in the way when that's not happening and we can start to doubt ourselves. So we try to stir people up. And I did that. There was once that I even talked about how, you know, there's something that happens when you physically move out of your seat and come to the front. I said that. Trying to manipulate people to get out of their seat and come forward. I mean, what? So what happens, Rochelle? What happens when people move out of their seat? What a confusing thing to say to people. Because what if somebody can't move? I mean, truly, there's a lot of people who have physical issues and they cannot move very easily. So what happens? And also it's just a made-up thing. It's made up to sound inspiring and to try to move people to interact with what I'm saying. So the truth is, you know, something can happen. God can cause something to happen in you, whether you are sitting or standing, sleeping, awake, whether you're driving or working or mowing or taking a bath. Because God is God and He moves when our hearts are open to Him. That's when He moves. It has nothing to do with whether you stay in your seat or not. It's about our hearts towards God. So I find it so gross that I fell into that. So I just thank God for His mercy and His grace. But this is the kind of thing that charismatic churches train people to do. We get caught up in just repeating behavior that we've consumed. And we think it's good, it stirs us up. So we want to be like that. We want to talk like that. We want to have that kind of impact. And also it's because we get used to hearing the same verses that are used to support these ideas about how things should look in church or or in worship. And I'm going to read a couple of them. One of them is about King David, it's to Samuel 6, and it talks about how David danced with all his might before the Lord as they were bringing the Ark of the Covenant back to Jerusalem. And when his wife saw him, she was annoyed and disgusted at him for dancing. And he told her, he said, I will become even more undignified. And I love that about David. I love that he said that. Because he did not give a rip about what anybody thought of him, even his wife. And it's because his dancing was unto the Lord for the return of the Ark of the Covenant. He was celebrating. And we shouldn't care about what anyone thinks of our worship unto the Lord, either, when we are worshiping him in truth. Whether we're sitting, standing, kneeling, face down, whether we're silent. But somehow people will take this verse as a prescription for how to worship instead of a description of how David worshiped in that moment. And then we have several psalms that talk about praising the Lord with instruments and dancing. But again, this is not a blanketed prescription on praise and worship. Because we also have things like Psalm 5.7, where it says, I, by your great love, can come into your house in reverence I bow down toward your holy temple. Habakkuk 220 says, But the Lord is in his holy temple, let all the earth keep silent before him. Hebrews 12 28 talks about reverence and awe before the Lord. And there's other verses that talk about being still and silent in his presence. So my point is, can we stop manipulating Scripture to try to persuade people to do what we want them to do? How about leaders just start trusting God? Trust that God will move in the ways he wants to, on whom he wants to, when he wants to. Whether someone is moved to dance, clap, sing, or be still and silent. And again, I just want to make it clear that I love worship and I appreciate worship leaders, you know, who help lead people into worship. But I can't help but wonder if the so-called modern worship, although I love so much of it and I'm so thankful for it, I just wonder if we're kind of going in the wrong direction. I've been wondering if we are actually creating apathy in the body of Christ by causing people to look to certain music or to look to certain atmospheres or look to certain stages with these gifted preachers, looking to those things to experience God. I read something yesterday and it said the purpose of worship is not to produce an emotional experience, but to acknowledge God's singular worthiness to be worshipped. So the first duty and responsibility of those who desire to lead others in worship must be to first understand the nature of worship itself. I thought that was good. There has to be an understanding of what worship truly is before you can truly lead people into it. And in my experience, it just feels like the charismatic church has used worship music to create emotion, which then feels like an encounter. And when that is such a focal point, people end up not knowing how to encounter God just by reading his word in the quiet or just by sitting in the silence and praying and being still in his presence. Does this make sense at all? I hope so. And again, I am thankful for worship music and good preachers and how it can help us set our minds on the Lord. I've experienced many beautiful moments during worship, whether I'm at a church or just in my kitchen at home. I've experienced awesome revelations when I'm listening to anointed good preachers. And, you know, I have a ton of great worship songs on my iTunes. So I hope you're understanding that I'm not I'm not saying that I have anything against worship music or anointed preaching. We need it, I love it, I want more of that type of thing. That's anointed, that's truly from God. But I feel like God has shown me some of these things, and maybe some of you are resonating with it. I don't know. But I believe that we have to start paying attention because we don't want to be in a place where Jezebel has the reins and uses manipulation through music, through spiritual language, or whatever it is to play on our feelings and emotions to make you think it's God when it's not. And that does happen. No matter how much we want to believe that that stuff is not happening in the church amongst people who call themselves Christ followers, it is happening. Revelation 3, chapter 1, Jesus says this to the church at Sardis. He says, I know your works, you have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. So that's concerning that there are places that seem to be alive, but they are not. There's no life in them, they're dead. Luke chapter 11, thirty-four through thirty-five says, Your eye is like a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is filled with light. But when it is unhealthy, your body is filled with darkness. Make sure that the light you think you have is not actually darkness. So what does that tell us? It's telling us that there might be times when we think we have light, but we don't. That light is not from God, it's something else. It's demonic, it's darkness. And my question is this if we can't discern when the light that has been presented to us is darkness, how will we be able to cast out darkness? How will we cast out dark How will we be able to recognize the enemy when we are manipulated so easily by Jezebel inside the church? Because believe me, that same spirit is also in high places on the earth, outside the church, in governments, political realms, entertainment, media, news. And if we can't overcome this thing inside the church, then how will we overcome it outside? How will we have an impact on the world? Sometimes I think we just have this separation mentality that the church is somehow separated from other governmental systems on the earth, but the church itself is representative of the kingdom of God, and a kingdom is political. Jesus was political. That's why political leaders wanted to kill him. So if the enemy can keep the church docile by manipulation and control and deception, by feeding us a bunch of fake crap, that ends up turning us into these apathetic churchgoers looking for our next emotional fix, then the body of Christ will never step into its fullness of who we are supposed to be in the earth. I hope this is making sense, and I hope you don't hate me for it. I know this can be a touchy subject where there might be some misunderstandings, but I've tried presenting this with as much clarity as I can. And I want to say this I know there are some good, solid, Christ-centered churches that are leading people well. I know some of them, I have been to some of them, but unfortunately, there are many that are just a brand. They are building a kingdom that is their own where Jezebel is on the throne. And because God's word says to make sure the light you think you have isn't actually darkness, we need to closely examine some things in ourselves and in where we choose to go to church. I think the church has become a playground for the enemy, and we've allowed it because too many Christians are not willing to confront what needs to be confronted, not only within the church, but also within themselves. I believe we as Christians, as the body of Christ, this is a time for war. We are at war within the church. I believe the church has been infiltrated by many false prophets, false teachers, wolves in sheep clothing. The Bible has even warned us about that. And it's almost as if we are refusing to take our blinders off and be honest with what's happening. It's called a spiritual battle for a reason. Because it's a battle, it's not easy. And it's not that it's not easy physically, although that's part of it sometimes, but it's that spiritual and the mental and emotional part of the battle that comes with recognizing things about ourselves that are not good, that are not of God, and recognizing things about places that we have loved or people that we have loved, and then taking it a step further and confronting those things in ourselves, confronting those things inside the church or with people. It's not easy. That's why it's called a battle. So this is a topic we will definitely talk more about in the future. But I hope you enjoyed listening today. And next week I will be talking about demonic manifestations, what they look like, how to know if it's demonic, and what to do. So hopefully you will tune in next week. Thanks for listening to the