Doing the Work: Men and Trauma, Therapy, and Learning to Attach Safely with Dr. Ken Huey MS PhD

We trace Ken’s path from a high ACEs score and adoption to building a life anchored in secure attachment, practical therapy, and real repair. We challenge myths about male vulnerability, map avoidant and anxious patterns, and offer tools that help families, teams, and teens heal. In this episode:

• why one secure mentor buffers trauma
• how ACEs link to health and relationships
• avoidant and anxious patterns explained
• why secure attachment outperforms other styles
• repair as a daily practice at home and work
• using Gottman’s Four Horsemen to de-escalate
• experiential therapy for teens over talk alone
• vulnerability with boundaries in leadership
• competence-based self-care that actually restores
• modeling over lecturing when parenting

Dr. Ken Huey is the CEO of The Hope Group and Havenwood Academy, with over 25 years of experience in the mental health and behavioral healthcare field. Dr. Huey has a Ph.D. in Marriage and Family Therapy and a MS in Counseling Psychology.

VoiceofHope.com and HopeGroupHealth.com

Transcript

Welcome And Purpose Of The Show

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to What Would Sabrina Say? I'm Sabrina Gong, and I'm excited you're joining me today. In this podcast, I dive into mental health topics, topics on relationships and overall well-being. With over 20 years of experience as a licensed clinical social worker, I share insights and invite expert guests who are passionate about making a positive difference. I started this podcast because I was frustrated with the often misleading or recycled information in social media involving self-help and the mental health field. My goal is to provide you with genuine, useful content that's educational and informative. Thanks for tuning in. I hope you find our conversations both enlightening and empowering. I'm glad you're here.

ACEs, Trauma, And Health Consequences

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Hi everyone, it's Sabrina Duong from What Would Sabrina Say, and excited to have Dr. Ken Yue here, who is the CEO at the Hope Group and a host of the Voice of Host Hope podcast. Ken has over 25 years of experience in mental health and behavioral health, and excited to have you here talking today about your journey thus far. And as well wanting to talk about an of course, important topic of discussion around men mental health, young men especially, and the stigmas that we may have around seeking support and how it's beneficial in the area of attachment and trauma. So thanks so much for joining me today. Amazing work around attachment, especially to be recognized from the attachment therapy network, which is great.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

So I think the only thing I would is just the personal side of it, why I've landed in this trauma and attachment world. I'm actually an adoptee and have an ACES score of seven, so pretty high on the trauma scale. And that makes me want to find my people and do something to help change their lives.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

I think it'd be great to hear about your journey and how maybe supports have helped along the way. I think it takes having one person in your life to hear your story, uh, to be a support, um, as well as maybe how intervention has helped along the way as well.

The Power Of One Secure Attachment

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah, you bet. The adverse childhood experience, your audience probably wants to be out. Essentially, you know, the more trauma we have, really 10 specific kinds of trauma, if you have one or two of those, it's one thing, but if you have four or more in your young life, it really sets you up for some pretty difficult interpersonal problems, psychological problems. Physically, it does really weird things to your body such that you die earlier, you have more cardiovascular disease, you have higher blood pressure, higher cholesterol, it's really quite something. And so the great mitigator of those traumas, though, is actually one securely attached adult or more, but having at least one securely attached adult who is a mentor for you. And I was a very, very lucky guy in that way. I mean, I didn't know I needed that. I didn't know, heck, I didn't know what trauma was. I thought that what I was going through was a little bit abnormal, but I thought I that was my fault. And I had a couple of people that were really transformational. My my father, adopted dad, was really my best friend. He passed away two years ago suddenly, and he uh really had such unconditional positive regard for me, just believed I was wonderful. And there was a guy named Vern Spires that I grew up with, and it was a youth leader, and just would tell me from the time I was maybe 12 until oh, maybe 15 or so. He would just, every time he talked to me, he would tell me about how exceptional I was, that I was a leader, that I just I couldn't wrap my mind around what he was even saying. I felt like such so less than and unpopular and and such. But I really could feel his belief in me. And over time, this securely attached man who wasn't doing anything to abuse me, but was just pouring caring and connection into me had an effect. I believed that there was probably something to a bit of what he was giving me. That ultimately was the seeds that turned into a decent living bush or tree of belief and ability to overcome some of this trauma that was in my life.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Right. So the importance of just having someone believe in you and truly see your potential and encourage that growth.

Counseling That Changed A Life

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Yeah, that was really key. And I think it was interesting because in my family of origin, I can almost prove it in that I've got a younger brother who's a year and two days younger than me. And he did not get that. There was nobody that believed in Dave. He's a sensitive soul, great, beautiful young guy who just got nothing but the abuse. And he's in state prison and will be for another decade or more, and has been out of in and out of jail and prison and addicted to various substances for his whole life, really adult life. And I really wonder what would have happened if he'd gotten either some really good treatment, which is another reason I do what I do, or if he had some mentor like that. Aver and spires spires was paying the same kind of attention to him.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

It's I'm sorry to hear about your brother and his journey, and um it shows how it can make such a difference to have people around you that give you that support and can and truly help to um probably challenge you in a good way, those maybe beliefs, right, that you might have had of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I wondered if um can you touch on counseling and how it's helped you along the way.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Yeah, I first was in front of a therapist when I was about thirteen years old or so. And there was a gentleman that was trying to help my parents save their marriage. That was really not his fault, but it didn't work out. Just his uh attempts to be there, really uh he became important then later on, but but he at least seeing that you know there was this stable guy that I could kind of look at, I I started thinking about his life and what he created, and I understood a little bit about his family, and it was just a pretty cool life that he had built. And that had me lean into the helping professions. I wound up circling back to him when I was maybe 20, as I yeah, probably 24. And I'm looking to get married, but I'm pulling away and panicking, and he's like, of course you are, and was able to walk me through some of the trauma responses that I was having, and that I had these neural pairings that to get close to a female was dangerous, and I would pull away. My body was trying to protect me, and he helped me figure out what to do with that and how to push through. It took about a year. It came really after I got married, but uh that was really terribly helpful. And so that was the only I didn't I didn't ever go into a residential treatment center or anything like that, but that was the first time where I really was interacting with a therapist, and he helped me figure out a couple of steps to take me further along in the healing journey.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Right. So I think that's a great point, is you know, our body naturally responds to protect us, and it's not anything that's abnormal or negative. I think a lot of times we hear like, oh, there's emotional dysregulation and need to find skills to change that, but it's not about getting rid of it, but it's understanding and exploring why it's there. That alone was going on.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

So that must have been an experience to go back decades later and sort of talk to someone that was part of your life at that time and that milestone.

Biology, Culture, And Male Vulnerability

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah, it was really interesting because he he had such a deep understanding of my family. It's interesting. My adopted dad was walking through uh Brigham University, uh, a building, and this therapist was pretty big name and was giving a talk, uh, a presentation, and was speaking about this incident with a young girl in a family and the young girl getting drunk and having a specific conversation with the dad, and my dad stopped. It was it was my family. He was using my family as an example, which was totally fine. He he was changing the eye to make it not obvious, but my dad immediately could tell what was going on. And so then later, a little after that, I'm able to then have him as my therapist, and he talked about what an impactful family, not in a lovely way, but the things that he learned from my family. And that was actually pretty helpful to realize some of the dysfunction and what needed to be overcome and a pathway to get there. So I I've always appreciated that. Think very highly of this man to this day.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Right. It just reminded me of um listening to Bessel Vanderkook ex uh speak and ask a group of how many people don't have a dysfunctional family and raise their hand, and there's a few, and he joked, I'd like to go to dinner and see you know what your family's like, because there's no such thing as a functional.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

It's so true. I mean, dysfunctional becomes cool because if that's the norm, that should be functional. Functionally dysfunctional. Everybody that's in a totally functional family, they're the ones that are dysfunctional. Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

So I was wondering too, if we could touch on maybe some of the myths out there. I I think a lot of people these days are experiencing loneliness. Um and especially men. And I was wondering if you could talk about maybe what ways in whether in your practice or in general, therapy can help people and and young men who may be feeling lonely at this time.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yeah, you bet. It's interesting because I think the general narrative is that culturally we've discouraged men from being open. And while that might be true, I have a bit of a different take on this. I think we're biologically set up as hunters and strong men to be actually pretty closed off to get the job done. Task focused, not emotionally and relationally focused, by biology. And then because that is sort of the norm, not the rule. There there are people outside of that. I think I'm not normal that way. We think that it's about culture, but I actually think the culture just supports what's already there biologically. Now, at the same time, I don't think that excuses us from the responsibility to work against biology because we're not just hunters out to go kill and not be emotionally connected. We're built to be related, connected, and loving. But we need to amplify some of that. Recognize, okay, yes, I am built to be better at this thing over here, but I still need to work on being emotionally vulnerable because it makes life better. Being a connected husband and father, the research is absolutely compelling. Does a lot of great things for my spouse and for my children, making them healthier and society at large. So I don't want to say it's it's just biology and we should let that be. I'm saying, yeah, it's biology and I'll need to work on a muscle that's smaller biologically than my muscle to go conquer.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Right. So there, although there is a biological piece to sort of explain, perhaps, where there might be more isolation or challenges to express emotion, we're seeing the benefits for all within a family system, society, and even healthier for the individual as well, to uh I guess develop tools, right, to emotionally connect and express.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, to the extreme word fawn, the continuum word if the meet need is to be a little bit reserved and not come out of that feelings biologically, right? And we're one or two standard deviations even farther on being quiet, that's a problem. And we need, if just just seeing the problem and recognizing, oh, this does not come naturally to me. Hey, I can do things to work on it, that is terribly powerful because we can do work relative to that. I have maybe I'm I'm at least a standard deviation, maybe two on the expressive side, and there's a time to tone that down. And I can't say, oh, I'm just expressive. I need to learn there's times to shut my mouth.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

That's what's right. I have that problem as well. Yes. And so I was wondering perhaps on this topic of vulnerability and and loneliness, if we could talk about how trauma comes into play with that as well, and attachment.

Trauma’s Impact On Attachment Styles

SPEAKER_00 12:01

In attachment? Yeah, sure. So, you know, it really is trauma impacting our attachment style. And if we're in a situation where that trauma has us afraid of and pulling back away from connection, this is a simplification, but really we can get into an avoidant attachment style that has us always fleeing what could be positive. Because the attachment feels like prior attachment that turned deadly, so to speak, I pull away from it, understandable reaction. But if I'm always doing that, I'm not emotionally available and actually connected to somebody that wants to be with me in that media I want to be with too. And so we're gonna learn how to figure that part out, the trauma's driving it. Same thing if somebody's not emotionally available and we're pursuing that, or we're sort of built to do that and come into a kind of anxious attachment, or always trying, hey, please love me. Is this enough? Have I done enough to prove enough? Or do I need to numb out so I calm down? That that's not going to be adaptive. And if I want to get rid of that maladaptive behavior, I've got some work to do to not be anxious, be able to be reserved when I need to be and be in when I need to be and be securely attached. There's there are people who want to just say it's okay whether you're avoidant or you're anxious. And I land in the camp of that's a stupid idea. Appreciate it. You're trying to let people feel comfortable and not feel shame, but the research doesn't support you. It's better for relationships to be securely attached, and we should strive to be as securely attached as we can. It's not that we're bad because we're anxiously attached. That's where I sat for a very long time, but it doesn't work as well. So why not let the science and the research take me where I need to go? Namely, that's something to again improve strength in a particular area so that I don't have weakness built into the closest relationships around me.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Yes. Um, and thanks for for bringing that up because I've been confused and seeing some information out there as well around every attachment is okay, and it's okay to experience different attachment styles. And but if an attachment isn't secure, that's hard to interact with people in ways that's healthy. It is about healing those wounds.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

For sure. It's not that that there's an effort to be, for instance, a little bit of avoidance in the attachment scale or the continuum. I don't find anything wrong with learning how to do that, to deploy it at the right time. But in general, to be in a securely attached space creates better mental health for the individual. Full stop. If I can go ahead and turn on the avoidant because this person truly isn't safe, that's actually kind of cool. If somebody is just they're really avoidant, and I need to be able to show them a little bit without pursuing constantly, but to show them some caring and connection, and I can flip a switch a little bit and be a little on the anxious side, I find that very, very powerful. But at the end of the day, all of the research will say being securely attached has better outcomes for physical and emotional health.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Right. Going back to the ACEs as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah.

Repair Over Being Right

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Talked about how a higher score um impacts her health. The good news is there's ways to make improvements, changes. It's not written in stone, this is your fate, this is how your health is going to look. Other ways to make changes, both physically and emotionally as well. Mental health. It's great. I wanted to touch on vulnerability as well, too, because there's sometimes a myth around vulnerability, um, it being maybe seen as a weakness. Sometimes you even hear this I know in in leadership or um a a certain way to kind of come off at a level of I mean of confidence. I was wondering if you can touch on, you know, with your experience of over, you know, 25 years, not only in the field of mental health, but in being an entrepreneur and in leadership, what are the benefits actually of being vulnerable?

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Absolutely. So I think there's kind of two parts to that. The first is you've got to be able to develop a sniffer that tells you being vulnerable is actually going to be an okay thing. Even if it doesn't work out, this is a safe enough base that we can lean in. And you should have a template for that. And this we could go into it and spend some time. It's different for every person based on attachment style. But with two or three quick scan methods, you can do a little bit of research on this very, very easily. Heck, ask ChatGPT. And come up with a template for that. And then, you know, you kind of know, like my leadership team, I know a level that I can go with leadership team versus a support team that's a smaller number and the ownership group of our organization, the hope group. So I know what's safe to do, and then to just simply lean into that and say, guys, you know what? I'm I I didn't accomplish two tasks this week. We have a tactical meeting once a week on a Tuesday. And to be able to say, I I I kind of stummed my toe on this, I need to figure out what to do differently here. I think this is what got in the way. My gosh, to see somebody not covering up. You know, when I do that, what it does for the team. And when I see somebody on the team just saying, you know, I'm struggling with this thing here. Maybe it's not that I didn't accomplish something. It's just I'm overwhelmed. I've had two days of real sadness because I had this fight with my spouse. That level of openness and ability then to support in a time of need only makes for better mental health and ultimately better productivity because there's this safety that allows for soaring to new heights.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Right. And as you're talking, that sort of reminded me of the sanctuary model as well, right? That was uh developed. It's in a hospital setting. I was trained um in a treatment center for youth as well that had a live-in treatment center and just being able to be vulnerable and sharing how you feel, what your goal is, and then who you can ask for help. Just being able to share as a team where things are at for you and get that support.

Modeling, Teens, And Experiential Therapy

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, I think that's pretty fantastic. I think the next step is to create a little bit of that, be vulnerable in to it's it's kind of a almost seems backwards, but to create a space where crucial conversations, you know, that's a great book, by the way, where those are happening with frequency, we become immune then to largely immune to the negative effects of it and being freaked out because we just get used to having the crucial conversations. But that creates a synergy and a cyclical reinforcement then of being vulnerable and confronting the issues head-on that really makes for a high-flying organization.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Were there times in your own journey about working through that vulnerability in terms of leadership and maybe sitting with uncomfortableness?

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Aaron Powell Say about my own vulnerability, is that what you're saying? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah. I'm trying to think it's interesting. Like I say, you need to develop a sniffer for what's okay to be vulnerable, vulnerable about. And uh that's that's the key for me. I uh I would tend on the side of probably oversharing, and there's kind of a level to go that makes a lot of sense. I can do quite a bit with the ownership team and support team that is with me. There's five of us compared to in a larger leadership team where to go to some of that granular stuff is probably not going to be productive. But I can say that with very rare occasion have I ever erred on the side of too much disclosure or too much vulnerability because it's hard to do. You can err on that side better than being withdrawn. I in fact I'd rather make that mistake and sort of open up too much once in a blue moon, as opposed to really not have a culture of being vulnerable like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Right. And how about within your own day to day personal circle, right? As a as a husband, as a father, what has vulnerability been like for you and and maybe what have you seen been the some of the benefits of that?

True Self‑Care As Competence

The Hope Group And Where To Find Ken

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, you know, I I hope you You're asking me to reflect on the relationships where it would be better if I've my six kids were sitting here, maybe my wife. But I they would say, I think we've talked about this a fair amount, that being able to apologize for getting it wrong has been a big deal. So I I had I had one prime directive as I became a father. I have not ever been able to stop thinking about the idea of it must end with me. I I have to be a transitional figure. I'm certainly not going to pass on sexual abuse, but I can't pass on emotional abuse or physical abuse. It has to stop. I s I got rid of the physical stuff and just didn't let spanking be a part of my repertoire by the time my first son was a year and a half, two years old and uh, you know, spaked and never out of anger. And it's still, I think it's a bad idea in general. Whatever. But the intensity part of me that underlies that, what could be physical abuse, didn't just go away and blow up uh at at things or be just too intense and scare my kids sometimes. And I think, hopefully without fail or close to it, I'm able to go back to them and just say, guys, you know, Nicholas, I'm so sorry. This is a thing I'm gonna always struggle with. At the end of the day, I'm not gonna hurt you, and I want you to see that. It can feel like it, but let's talk about that. And and uh I don't want you scared around me, and I'm sorry that I blew that. Please forgive me, kind of a thing. And there was an instance uh in probably 2010 or so, I can actually remember, in Missouri where I I just had a a wig out uh and man, my my second child, my daughter, thought I was gonna hurt my son as I was coming at him so intensely thinking he had something said something that he did not. Uh so that was scary for her. She froze, couldn't say anything. Five later freeze, she froze. And uh we we laugh about it now. I I did then, I had to cool down, super apologetic to them and let them know what you saw how intense I was, and you saw that it did not turn physically. It won't. But I'm sorry that it had to be scary for you. And we were able to process that and sort of reconstruct that anxiety and fear, at least that's what they say too, and and a recognition that, okay, that that'll get intense once in a while, but he'll repair with us and then we'll be okay. So that's the model that we followed. We spoke about it even back starting in 2007, actually. That connection break repair in a circle, that's the normal cycle of human human relationships. We're connected, we have breaks of various kinds, but then we repair. And if we do that, if we don't leave one out, you know, and do a fake repair, a half repair, we just connect it and then we break, but we ignore it long enough that we're connected again. We can't do that. If we repair, that normal cycle plays out in such a way that it actually reinforces connection.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Right. That repair part is sometimes the most challenging part I find, even in my own experience as a human being, as a wife, daughter, that we get sort of stuck in our own patterns, our own stories. And um wondering again your expertise on, you know, tips for repair and how therapy can help with that.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah, you bet. Being vulnerable is just see so tough because you think you're right. I think that developing and exercising that insult is just huge. Therapy, I find terribly helpful for that because if you can trust the relationship with your therapist, they can help hold your feet to the fire in a safe way that hey, I'm a little bit off here. One of the things they'll teach you is the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse by John Gottman, that I know you're aware of. Really, the four killers of relationships are criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and withdrawal. And when we can have those, you can go into that quite a bit. But you know, when we're having those, any one or more of those in relationship, we're measuring it up. We need to figure out how to start repairing those and pull it out of the relationship so that it's not endemic to it.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

It's really being conscious and aware, that self-awareness of your own behaviors, catching yourself in those moments like you did in that example with your children. Being able to take responsibility for finding a solution, guys, I think that's huge. A lot of times there's you know, focus, I think, on who's right, not repairing, especially with kids.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

You should just know or just do it this way. And that other side of it, trust for children is really important too, right? That they could trust that their parent gets it or listens or also pair with them.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah. Power is power differentials are not necessarily a bad thing as long as the power doesn't slide into control and domination. And a parrot has more power than a kid. And the way you deconstruct that power so that it doesn't get into domination is especially in mistake to deconstruct the power, to explicitly deconstruct it and say, Yeah, hey, just because I'm the parent doesn't make me right all the time. You do it because I say I'm a parent is a bad freaking message. Don't do that. Just don't do that. Seriously, quit it if you do. So, and to say, you know, I get it wrong and my gosh, I'm sorry, I blew that one. That then appropriately for a period of time levels the power differential and makes you able to show them and model for them what it is they need to do to repair themselves. And that then keeps you from getting into the domination that is super destructive. That's the stuff that kills the relationship, not the power differential and not mistakes.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Aaron Powell And I think modeling is is so important. And that's something that can be forgotten when it comes to parenting sometimes. Modeling what you'd like to see versus discussion, consequences, direction.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Especially when you're talking to a youngster under the age of you know 20, somebody you're actively parenting, they've got this prefrontal cortex that's not fully developed. And you can talk to them, but that that's where abstract thinking and cause and effect is housed, and it's not that strong. So they'll do much better, in fact, if you model, if you show them, give them an experience of what it's like to have it go successfully versus tell them what it looks like. That is why modeling and example, we talk about it so much, is parents, that's why it's so powerful and such a big deal. You get that wrong, you say the right thing, but you model not repairing. You model being in tr in control and exhibiting power in a negative way and domination. Shoot, man, that will speak so much louder than anything you could possibly say. You've got to model love, compassion, and repair.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Yes, just showing that curiosity, you know, kindness, faithfulness, right? You could still get a message across as well. I was wondering, you know, we're sort of touching on modeling for younger children. How do you reach teens and young adults in your work? What's that been like?

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah. So like I was starting to kind of talk about that really is that instead of talking to the prefrontal cortex, which is really what we prioritize as therapists generally is stop that. That's actually nigh unto worthless talk therapy with teens, frankly. It'll do some good, but it is so limited. You've got behaviors that are experientially learned, you mean to teach new behavior through experience. So how do we reach them? We we deprioritize talk therapy. It's an hour a week in our residential setting. That's it. An hour. Really, to kind of tidy things up, do case management kinds of things. We're giving them experiential exercises to show them how to build trust. Recreation therapy, where they're on a climbing wall and it feels insurmountable, but they're having an adult show them where to put their foot next and give them an experience of having safely traversed a wall by listening to adult guidance. That's an experience. The fear heightens the stress response. And they have a successful resolution of the stress response. That shows them that adults can be safe more than telling them in talk therapy. So that's how we reach them. We try to create all kinds of experiential therapies: neurofeedback, EMDR, recreation therapy, equine therapy, things in places where we can heighten the stress response and have a successful resolution to rewire them rather than talk them into a new way of being.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Right. And you're also creating people in that environment that are that can be that mentor, like you experienced yourself in childhood and um, you know, throughout your development. So it's someone being patient, someone encouraging and supporting in those activities. It's not just program, it's how they're interacting that's also helping to heal.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Aaron Powell Yeah, well said. Your frontline staff, that is the backbone of a residential program. They they need to be quality human beings, able to really model over and over daily on a totally interactive basis what it means to be a responsible adult. If you can do that, then they can learn it. They just bathe in it every day. That's what we need.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Aaron Powell And can appreciate for parents when they're coming home at the end of their day, or even for staff, right, to do it day in, day out. It can be draining and tiresome. Do you have any suggestions or recommendations in how to regulate focus on self-care to be present and model?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Boy, I've I I've thought a lot about this lately. We've been we've had quite a push over the last year. We started to recognize that there was no correlation and certainly no causation for people wanting to have some self-care and decompress to just watching TV or getting more sleep or the right amounts, but oversleeping, certainly using alcohol to calm down, or go out and just dance, that those things don't really help. That's not really self-care. Get a massage, get your fingernails done. What is true self-care is actually competency-based. Having a success, that is self-care. You know, to have some time away is needed, but to have a success in that environment, or go out and exercise, burn off stress hormones, have a success relative to bodybuilding, if that's your thing, or a new sport, or to accomplish something independent of this very difficult work that you do, that does something for self-care in a big way. So I have been a three times a week minimum guy for an hour and a half at least every session for 30, probably 32 years now of real high-intensity exercise. And it's been life-saving for me. It helps me. I my wife will even say, You need go go take your racquetball and get out of here. Go, go exercise. Oh, oh, sheesh, okay. Yeah, I must I'm a little off. And she's right. I'll go get an hour and a half workout in, and oh, it just takes me back to a better place.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

It really helps to get that out at a cellular level, that energy really helped to work it through the body because we're not meant to be sedentary as well, too. I find this even a long walk with my dog, rain or shine, just really helps.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

That's right. There's there's a subtle difference, sometimes not so subtle, between distraction, incompetency, or getting something done. Going for a walk with your dog, that's fantastic. It's not just distraction. You're getting some exercise. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

I was wondering if you could share a bit about the Hope Group and about your podcast wrap wrap-up. I mean, we could probably touch on all these topics within several episodes. And yeah, I really appreciate your your knowledge and expertise and wondering if anyone else would like to uh connect or learn more, you know, where they can find you as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Yeah. Probably the easiest way to find me is the Voice of Hope podcast. VoiceofHope.com. And the Hulk Group is Hope Grouphealth.com. There's not a ton of information there, but briefly, the Hulk Group is a platform with four different mental health and behavioral health care businesses in the state of Utah. Well, we'll go outside of the state of Utah here in the next couple of years, but right now we're in Utah. And you can find out more about that there. But the voice of hope, if you want to hear the kinds of things I'm talking about now, I interview a lot of experts in mental and behavioral health and business leadership along these kinds of things there. So that's probably the place to find them.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Thank you so much for your time, Ken. And again, sharing about your journey as well and what brought you here and sharing about the great work that you do. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Thanks, Sabrina. Really great to hang out with you. I appreciate it.