webe Parents

Ep. 43-When "Guidance" Feels Like Control — Why Your Kid Pushes Back (and How to Change It)

• Matt Lederman & Alona Pulde • Season 1 • Episode 43

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Ever try to guide your child with ❤️ only to end up as “the enemy”? 😅 

Matt and Alona unpack why even well-intentioned boundaries around 📱 devices, 🍦 junk food, or commitments can trigger resistance—especially in strong-willed kids 💪.

From ice cream showdowns 🍨 to summer camp standoffs 🎪, they explore how control sparks rebellion 🚫 (or resentful submission 😤) and how shifting to true collaboration builds connection 🤝 instead of conflict.

💡 Hear how they use real-life parenting fails (including a Halloween candy overload 🎃🍬 and an epic camp meltdown) to reveal a roadmap for keeping shared family values intact while honoring your child’s autonomy 🌱. You’ll learn:

  • Why “no” can instantly shut down connection ❌
  • How to help kids link their choices to deeper values 🧭
  • A step-by-step way to move from power struggles to teamwork 👫—without giving up on what matters most ❤️

Have a Kinectin Account? 🚀 Explore these Nudges to see how they apply to your own life — in a way only Amari can.

💬 Nudge: I keep trying to set limits with my child around something important, but they either rebel or comply with resentment. I want to find a way to stay connected while still honoring my values.
💬 Nudge: My child agrees with me in calm moments, but makes choices that go against what we discussed. I want to help them build internal motivation so I’m not always the gatekeeper.

🤖 What is Amari?
webe Parents has partnered with Kinectin to bring you Amari, your personal AI coach. Now you can interact with the ideas from our podcasts, articles, and parenting tips — and Amari will help you apply them directly to your personal life.

👉 Don’t have a Kinectin Account? Create one here

To learn more about what Alona & Matt are up to check us out at webeparents.com, or follow us on our socials at Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, or YouTube. Be sure to subscribe to webe Pärents wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Alona Pulde:

Hey there, we'd love for you to hit that subscribe button. By subscribing, you're helping us spread the word and connect with more amazing people like you.

Producer:

Welcome to We Be Parents, where parent doctors Matthew Letterman and Alona Polday explore current parenting topics, share stories, and help bring families closer together.

Alona Pulde:

Hello and welcome to We Be Parents, the podcast where we explore how to parent with both connection and clarity without collapsing into control or giving up on what matters. I'm Dr. Alona Polday.

Matthew Lederman:

And hi, I'm Dr. Matt Letterman.

Alona Pulde:

And I had to think for a second who I am. There's so much going on in our lives right now that it took me a beat.

Matthew Lederman:

Yes, we are. We are moving. We are moving. And if anybody has moved, our house looks like a bomb went off in it.

Alona Pulde:

Yes, we're not just moving. We're moving across the country.

Matthew Lederman:

Well, it's cross country. You know, I realized I would say that. And then I would think whether you move next door or you move cross country, you still have to pack everything up. I guess, you know, it's a little bit different, but it still seems just I mean, I can't believe how much crap we have in the house.

Alona Pulde:

Oh, my gosh. It's amazing how much we accumulate. Yes, yes. And each time we move, I tell myself, okay, we're only taking the essentials and we're going to declutter and we're going to stay decluttered. And that lives in our house for about six months. And then things just start creeping in. They

Matthew Lederman:

show up.

Alona Pulde:

Yes.

Matthew Lederman:

It's like you forget the pain. You forget the pain of the... And then you do it again.

Alona Pulde:

Yeah. And I used to think that it was just our kids. But as I'm throwing bags and bags away, I'm like, no, it's me too. So, yeah.

Matthew Lederman:

And I'm blaming the kids.

Alona Pulde:

Yeah.

Matthew Lederman:

I like to blame the kids. It's a little easier. It

Alona Pulde:

is. It takes the weight off, right?

Matthew Lederman:

Exactly. Exactly.

Alona Pulde:

So what are we talking about today?

Matthew Lederman:

What are we talking about?

Alona Pulde:

Today, we're going to dive into something that probably most parents feel and can be really frustrating when we try to guide our kids with love and they push back like we're the enemy. And, ooh, I actually had one of these just the other day.

Matthew Lederman:

Before you get into that, let's ask people to subscribe to the podcast and make sure they like it or feedback or rate it, all the stuff you're supposed to do to help us get out there and have more people hear about us.

Alona Pulde:

Please subscribe, tell a friend, review, rate, and write to us and let us know how we're doing. And also, if you have any questions. And that would be to WeBeParents.

Matthew Lederman:

Parents at WeBeParents.com.

Alona Pulde:

Parents at WeBeParents.com. There you go. I told you my head's a little bit scattered today as we are packing away. We have less than a month before we actually leave. So good times. So yeah, so I had this episode of... Guiding with what I thought was care and connection, but ended up not only not landing well, but being met with significant resistance and rejection and disconnection between me and Jordan, our 11-year-old. And so the girls are at camp this week, and they are doing an aerial acro circus camp. And our girls actually really, especially our oldest, Kylie, really love the movement. But they haven't done it in such a long time. I didn't realize how couch potato-y our girls have gotten. I

Matthew Lederman:

know. They're complaining about their legs being sore. Last night, Kylie fell into bed because she couldn't bend down with her legs being so sore. Yes. So it turns out that... Scrolling on YouTube and Instagram doesn't help your legs at all.

Alona Pulde:

YouTube University does not build muscles. Yes. So, yeah. So Jordan goes into this camp. She committed to going. She was kind of excited about it. She gets there. She comes home after a day of actually having to move her body for eight hours and was miserable. Yeah. And I didn't want to go back. And so we sat down and had what I thought was a connected conversation around holding her autonomy and trying to preserve her autonomy, but also holding her accountable for one, her commitment and two, accountability for what she would do. So the conversation went, well, if you don't want to go to camp, we have to let them know. But also we can't be on the devices all day. So you need to come up with a plan of how you're going to be spending these next four days, not on a device. And she asked for some suggestions and I gave her some of mine, all of which were just awful in her opinion. And so I invited her to come up with her own. Well, she couldn't. And so then she resentfully agreed to go to camp. But all of a sudden, I became the enemy, the person taking away her autonomy and forcing her to go to this camp. And it created a real disconnect between us, which is slowly getting repaired as every day she continues to go to this camp. She can't. kind of likes it a little bit more, but it really puts you in that position of kind of how do I hold my kids accountable and how do we maintain shared values in our household while also supporting their autonomy?

Matthew Lederman:

So is the challenge the kids' reaction to your sort of boundaries, I'll call them? Because we talk about health, we talk about safety, and when there's health and safety, we'll collaborate, but we will not sort of put that on hold. Sometimes we have needs that we might say, okay, it's important to us, but it doesn't have to happen right now. But health and safety are one of those that often we got to figure out a strategy that works for us now. So is it the boundary around that that you're seeing as the challenge? Is it just you don't like them being unhappy? Is it something else? Is it a combination? What's coming up there?

Alona Pulde:

I think it's a combination. I think there's the discomfort of disconnection. There's the personal pain of an effort to collaborate being completely or feeling like it's rejected. where it became not a dialogue, but more at one point a monologue, which then I realized we're in disconnection and this is not being received. We should take a pause. But the invitation was for dialogue and an effort and the intention behind it was to collaborate around these shared values. And so we were missing each other and I couldn't tell if we were... no longer kind of sharing the values or if there was no, Jordan wasn't enjoying my strategies, but also wasn't accepting the invitation to come up with her own. It was almost like she wanted me to make decisions for her, but she didn't like my decision. It was my work. Like, mom, you do the work, but make sure that I'm happy about it.

Matthew Lederman:

So they're going to basically say, come up with ideas until I'm happy with one, but I'm not going to do any of the work to figure out what can make me happy. So they basically, they can say no, no, no, but they're not really working. They're not collaborating with you to try and find

Alona Pulde:

something. It's almost like my intention is a power with, and it feels like a power over, where she's submitting to me with the resentment that she had, or she's going to rebel against me and... Well, the reason this was actually brought up was not Jordan's situation. This was brought up by a friend who had a similar issue with... with their kids and specifically their 11-year-old daughter. This is a family of competitive athletes, high-performance children who are in soccer and all kinds of track and all kinds of sports. And their 11-year-old daughter was also struggling with loving sugar and wanting junk and kind of not being able to find the balance between allowing some of that in her life versus wanting it all the time and maybe even in her parents' eyes to an extreme, to a place of unhealthy desires.

Matthew Lederman:

Right. Most parents out there have dealt with kids wanting sugar, junk... or something that isn't meeting their needs for health. And the kid wants it, and the parent has to be either yes or no. But that puts the parent in the position of having to say no, and then the parent is the reason the kid can't have something versus one of the kid's needs not being met. So the parent looks like the obstacle versus health being the obstacle or consideration and care for another person you know if we say for example don't you know be loud you know grandma sleeping upstairs it's instead of them connecting to the care for grandma they're seeing us as the obstacle to them playing as loud as they want instead of them seeing the issue with eating ice cream for dinner they they're seeing us as preventing them instead of the health being the issue right is that what you're you're getting at or am I completely missing you?

Alona Pulde:

Well, that's one of the issues. And then also it's, you know, we allow, let's say, you know, every kid, our kids included, crave junk from time to time. And it's allowing them to indulge your have a treat, but then that treat becomes almost an expectation daily for, oh, I want ice cream again today. Oh, I want ice cream again today. And can I have ice cream and some chocolate? And I can have ice cream and these gummies or whatever it is. So

Matthew Lederman:

it's doing something that we know that's harming them, but they're not connecting to that. So from their perspective, if we weren't in the picture, they would eat the ice cream every day.

Alona Pulde:

Right. And we're putting on a Basically, I think the bottom line is we're putting a limit on something that they don't want to limit on. For Jordan's example, she doesn't want to limit on her device. In our friend's example, they don't want to limit on junk food.

Matthew Lederman:

Yeah, I think those are tough ones because to connect to a natural consequence or their own feelings about it, you have to help them experience the contrast. You know, people eating an unhealthy diet often will tell us that they didn't realize how bad they felt until they went on to a healthy diet and could compare the two feelings. And I think it's the same thing with the kids. And even for me with device usage. In fact, this has happened this week where I was so Mobilized, trying to move and get rid of furniture we all need and selling stuff that we don't want. And I was checking my phone all the time. And there's this whole concept of inner boundaries. That to me, I said, okay, well, it's not about using willpower to put some boundaries there. It's about there's a part of me that's so worried that I need to check something, fix something, do something. I got to get it done that I wasn't doing my meditation, for example, my self-care work. And when I started having the inner boundary and saying, okay, I'm going to do meditation before I wake up. And then I did one for 10-minute breathing exercise before lunch and then another one before dinner. Not very long. It wasn't like time was the issue. All of a sudden, I started feeling different. And I noticed, wow, I'm just a little bit more calm. I'm a little less reactive. I'm feeling just a little more warmth and almost like a tingly feeling in my body where I was not that mobilized feeling. And then all of a sudden, I was able to connect to the contrast there. Whereas up until the time, if someone said, you got to meditate before you wake up, I'd be like, well, all you're doing is getting in the way of me being more productive. I have emails to answer, ads to respond to, stuff to pack. But I had to give myself that experience. And I think that is really important, but it's hard to do with some of these things. So I think that would be helpful to talk about with kids. How do we give them the experience so that they can see the difference when they're on the device versus when they're giving themselves breaks versus being on it like 24-7? Or when they're eating ice cream for dinner versus they eat a healthy meal and they feel the difference? I think if we just let them eat the ice cream and we don't talk about the concerns about the ice cream and we don't say, okay, do you connect them to their own need for health? And then we say, okay, let's notice how we feel when we eat ice cream. And then tomorrow we're going to notice how we feel when we eat the healthy meal. And I'd like to write that down and talk about it. And then what we're going to do is we'll say, what do we do even if we gave you junk and we had a little splurge? I mean, you and I have done, you know, once in a while we'll have like cookies and ice cream for dinner. Yeah. It's super fun. And then afterwards we feel sick and we're like, oh, we don't need to do this again for a while. But if we say to the kids, I always told them that I don't care what you eat tonight for dinner. You could have ice cream. You could eat nothing. You could eat a healthy dinner. That's not going to make or break health. But what do we do when you want ice cream again tomorrow? Because ice cream is addictive. And then we explain about addiction. So to me, it's about that collaboration around all of this versus being attached to them not eating ice cream tonight or doing something my way tonight. And I think that's what you were getting at with Jordan, which was how do we make this week successful? Because being on the device eight hours a day for the next four days, if you don't have an activity, isn't going to work.

Alona Pulde:

So if you've been listening to us for a while, you know we get a lot of questions about what to do in tricky parenting or relationship moments.

Matthew Lederman:

Yeah, and if I'm being real, I'm asking Alona those same questions all the time. I get into those same tricky moments as everybody else does. And as much as we wish we could be there for each other in those exact moments, we just can't always be.

Alona Pulde:

Yeah, that's why we partnered with the amazing team at Connecton to create something we truly believe in, an AI coach called Amari. And we didn't just lend our names, we helped build it and train it and brought in everything we've learned about emotional healing, connection and communication.

Matthew Lederman:

Yeah, we spent years training and learning, and we've created Amari who is so calm and grounded, listens deeply and responds with warmth, clarity, and compassion. There's no judgment, no reactivity. In fact, we tasked our children with trying to get Amari reactive, and they still haven't succeeded. It's just steady support when you need it most.

Alona Pulde:

We use it ourselves all the time, especially when we feel stuck or overwhelmed. And Amari's really helped us pause, reflect, given us insight that helps us come back to each other.

Matthew Lederman:

We designed Amari to help you strengthen the relationships that matter most, starting with the one you have with yourself.

Alona Pulde:

And we are so excited that you can try it now at WeBeParents.com and click on WeBeConnecting with a K to sign up. And when you have your Amari moment, please let us know as we'd love to hear about it. One of the things that is a struggle is we as adults have the maturity and the executive functioning to hold both present worry for the future and past experience in deciding our course of action. Our children don't have a lot accumulated in that past experience.

Matthew Lederman:

Well, and we don't give them the opportunity to accumulate that. So if we gave them opportunity, like when Kylie got sunburned, you know, this is sort of my, you know, the school of hard knocks, which people may or may not agree with. In fact, I don't even know if you agree with this, but getting, you know, Kylie getting burnt to a crisp. So now the next time I said, hey, I'm putting on sunblock. But I don't, you know, does anybody else want to burn or do they, anybody else here not want to burn? If you don't want to burn, you should probably put some sunblock on. If you don't care about burning again, don't put sunblock on. And I'll say, and then they still will push a little bit. They'll be like, okay, well, I'm not going to put some. Okay. And I'll walk out. I'll be like, okay, well, my face is covered and Jordan put some on her neck. So Kylie, you're okay with all this getting all red and burning and the skin peeling and maybe some blisters and things like that, that you're okay with that? And she'll be like, well, I'm not really. Okay. I'll put some on. But it's really letting them feel that out. And sometimes you got to go, you almost have to hold the tension a little bit. Like, okay, let's say we eat ice cream every night for the next month. Let's talk about what happens in our bodies. Let's talk about how we feel. Let's talk about all of that and give them an experience that they can say, you know what? Maybe ice cream every night is not the best way. What's your reaction to them?

Alona Pulde:

Yeah. Again, holding both. I'm remembering when Kylie, who used to be our junkie, junk food junkie, We would laugh and call her our junk food vegan. But she would love junk food. And we had on Halloween, we gave the girls an option. They could gather their candy and they could either have as much as they wanted that one night and then we'd get rid of the candy. Or they could offer it to the Switch Witch for a gift that they've wanted forever. however long.

Matthew Lederman:

And Jordan would- And still have a cup, like two

Alona Pulde:

pieces. And still have two pieces. Yeah. And Jordan always chose the two pieces plus a gift. One Halloween, Kylie decided she was going to have as much candy as she possibly could that night. And we agreed to allow her to go to bed as late as she wanted that night so she could take in her candy. And she guzzled about, I don't know, half an hour, 40 minutes of as much candy as she could put in her mouth. And then started feeling really sick. I remember we took a video of her talking to herself. She

Matthew Lederman:

wanted to the video

Alona Pulde:

to

Matthew Lederman:

remind

Alona Pulde:

herself. She was like 10. She went ahead to say, Kylie, that was a terrible idea. Don't do that to yourself next Halloween. We played it for her. We played it for her every year for a while.

Matthew Lederman:

Right, because she said... To herself, Kylie, if you're given the choice, I know you're going to want to eat the candy, but you're going to feel really sick. Right,

Alona Pulde:

right.

Matthew Lederman:

And she told herself and then asked us to play it so she would never forget.

Alona Pulde:

And so she'd never do that again. Yes. And she never has done that again. At the same time, I look at them on the devices and I don't know how long it would take... For them to say, I've had enough of the devices and stop using them. And then I don't know if I can hold that comfortably and wait that game out.

Matthew Lederman:

Well, I think that's a problem. If we just said, use the devices as much as you want, but there was no alternative, that's not going to work. It's like giving them something... healthy and engaging and enjoyable versus being on the device. And then also checking in like, hey, when you've been on the device for eight hours, just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, taking time with them to connect to how they feel. And then, you know, like to me, that's the important pieces. If they just stare at a wall or they look at a device, they're always going to pick a device. And one of the challenges that before is that right now there's a crisis of creativity because I was bored. I had to get creative around how to entertain myself. Yes. Now they're sitting there waiting to be entertained. And if they're either staring at a wall, they can't think of something immediately like, oh, I'll just hop back on my device. So we got to help them build that. We got to get them out with friends and we got to give them those experiences. Also us engaging and playing with them. More often than not, if we ask to play together, they'll want to play with us still. And with dinner or with dessert, I used to tell Kylie, to this day, she hates that, where I'll say, Kylie, because we talked about the need for health and what does health mean? Because for younger kids and actually even some adults, health doesn't really mean anything. It's just not clear. So we went through what health meant. We went through the harms. But then we said, how much candy, Kylie, if you ate it tonight would meet your need for health? And she would get so annoyed. She would want us to pick how much was okay. And I would say, no, you pick how much meets your need for health. And she would then pick invariably less than I probably would have given her if I picked. But she starts to figure that out. And I think that's so important to give kids these opportunities to check in and start making these decisions about how much meets their need for health. Talk about what happens when you're not meeting the need for health. Share what it feels like when you don't experience sort of healthy things in your life. Even going to sleep. You know, when Kylie would like to stay up late until she stayed up really late and the next morning felt terrible and we connected to how bad she felt. And then she's like, you know what? I'd rather go to bed earlier. And even when she does sleepovers now, she'll tell her friends that she wants to go. Now, she'll still stay up later than she does at home. But some of her friends are staying up till three, four at night. And she won't do that. So I think the more we can give– I mean, how many people here had friends when you got to college that they were told what to do. All of a sudden, they get to college. They have this freedom to do whatever they want. They're staying up late. They're skipping classes. They have no idea how to organize their lives and run their lives. I think we got to give kids these opportunities now and really work with them. Don't just give it to them and let them figure it out on their own, but really harvest opportunities. What happens?

Alona Pulde:

Yeah. And I appreciate that. And I think, you know, I love the term crisis of creativity because I think that's absolutely the case. And I love the idea of connecting kids to their internal values because ultimately that is what is going to serve them onward and into adulthood for the rest of their lives. However, I look at are two children and how different they are. Kylie has aspirations. She has interests outside of the device. In fact, she will choose every time to do a project or some kind of activity over sitting on her device, if given the choice. Jordan has less internal motivation and And I don't know, again, if that's generational, if that's kind of where she is right now in life, where social media and device use and YouTube, it's so predominant in their friendship groups, in that whole culture. Yeah. And, you know, Kylie was even telling me that she and Jordan are in different generations by label. And so I don't know. I don't know if that's impactful or not. But I see a different level of internal motivation. And I think what becomes exhausting is when it becomes the parent's responsibility to entertain your child or to find ways for your child to entertain themselves. And then even that is met with resistance because that doesn't match or compete with what they're doing online.

Matthew Lederman:

Well, you know, Jordan will do the crocheting, right?

Alona Pulde:

Watching a video.

Matthew Lederman:

Right. But sometimes she's watching a video on how to crochet.

Alona Pulde:

Yeah.

Matthew Lederman:

So I think if we talked... to her, for example, about her experience and about our concern, she'll talk about that and she'll connect to it, but it has to make sense to her. So I don't doubt that she would use it less, but I also think she gets, just like I get sucked into the device, we have to also, we can't just talk about not using. We have to say, what happens when you pick it up by accident? What happens when you want to use it? How do we, and we have to walk through that. I think parents don't often enough walk through the what ifs, what we don't want to happen, happen. And there's a lot of what ifs there that need to be figured out.

Alona Pulde:

Yes. And I think what becomes frustrating and I think what was expressed and actually kind of bring us back to the question that our friend brought up was what happens when You have these strong-willed kids and these very highly intelligent children who say they care about something and who have these connected conversations around the need to do it differently and the impact of not doing it differently, but then go ahead and make choices that seem to contradict all of that again and again and again. And then how do we bring that back in a connected way to those shared values in an impactful way? Because

Matthew Lederman:

when the kids are going what we talk about them not doing, the kids agree in the conversation. But then down the road, stuff happens where they want to do it or they wind up doing it. As a parent, we can get frustrated. We just talked about this and now you're doing it again. Or we can say, oh, there was one path that we didn't have a good plan about what to do if that happens. And you got sucked back in. So now let's go back and address that situation. So every time something happens that we don't want to happen, that should be seen not as a kid failing or resisting, but as us together fleshing out something else that we still need to navigate to be successful.

Alona Pulde:

Yes.

Matthew Lederman:

And the kids have to feel that. difference. They will understand and say, yeah, I know I shouldn't be on my device that much. But when they choose to go on the device, they're not thinking, should I go on my device or should I not? They have this impulse to go on their device and then they get on. When a kid is trying to eat junk food, they're not thinking, oh, what should I do? They have this impulse for junk food and they grab it. So what do we do when that happens and how do we connect them to the felt sense of not having it versus the felt sense of wanting it?

Alona Pulde:

Yeah. And what's clear, I don't know that I have the definitive answer for that, but I know what is clear to me is what doesn't work. And what doesn't work is that power over or that sense of control. When our children feel like we're controlling and triggering their autonomy, there is going to be either that space resentful submission or that outright rebellion and rejection.

Matthew Lederman:

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Alona Pulde:

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Matthew Lederman:

It so has to be a collaboration with the child. And it's got to be a journey. If you think as the parent, you know what's best for this child, and you have to convince them and get them to comply, you're going to fail. Even if you successfully get them to do what you want in that moment, you're still failing. You just haven't realized it yet because of what's going to happen downstream. So I'm not saying to give up on what you want, but the idea is to connect to your needs behind the strategy that you're holding on to. And then connect to the needs the child is meeting through what they're choosing to do. And then once they trust that you really care about those needs, then you can help them see the needs that they're not meeting, which are the ones that you're worried about. And that process has to happen. If the child doesn't believe that you see all of the good reasons they're using the device or eating dessert for dinner, then you are not going to be able to connect to them. If all they think is mom or dad are trying to convince me that what I want to do is a bad idea, they are going to double down and cling to what they want.

Alona Pulde:

Absolutely. If our kids don't connect to why something matters... It's not going to be a long-term solution. We might get them to obey and to produce the behavior that we're desiring, but we're not fostering any connection to internal values, any long-term solution, and it can absolutely backfire.

Matthew Lederman:

Strong-willed kids are not defiant. They are just trying to sort of stay intact in a world that feels so controlling to them. They're so used to being controlled and not cared about that they actually don't connect to the care that the parents all have.

Alona Pulde:

And I don't trust that care. And we talked about that a lot. When a kid feels like they have lost their autonomy and their needs don't matter, they are left with two options. They will submit or they will rebel. And they submit when they're younger because they depend on you. When they don't need to depend on you anymore, they will rebel. And that we perceive as defiance. But it's really a scream of, hey, I matter too. see me, hear me, care about my needs. So absolutely. I agree with you. And in that, and it applies, whether it applies to devices or whether it applies to junk food, it's that same notion of there is an underlying need. These children are trying to meet. If we can meet them, see them in that need, just like you said in that beautiful, what's their intention behind their behavior. And we can, step into it with our values reflecting our values and sharing our values not controlling their behavior that that connection that we build results ironically, results in the behaviors that we're looking to attain in the first place.

Matthew Lederman:

Yeah. And the first place to start is what are your needs? What are your needs behind what it is you want or what you don't want? If you want your child to stop doing something or to start doing something, you have needs. And often parents aren't clear what those are. They're busy trying to get the child to agree to do that. And if If you can get to your needs, then you can actually share that with the child, and the child is much more likely to care about the strategy you're proposing. So if all a child hears is, well, the child says, I want this, and the parent says, no, you can't have this, that's all they hear. They don't have any idea all the good reasons you don't want them to have it, and they don't trust that you understand all the good reasons they want what they want. So start with identifying what your needs are.

Alona Pulde:

Even if even yes, you know, and I've found that if the first word out of my mouth is no, I have immediately created disconnection for my children. And all I have is glassy eyes looking at me. You know, there's the shell of our children in front of me, but they're no longer present. They don't want to hear the rest of it versus, hey, I'm hearing that that's, you know, that's important to you. And here's what's coming up for me. Not a yes or no, but here's what's coming up. Let's talk about

Matthew Lederman:

it. Kylie will always say how much she appreciates that we never say no. And parents listening might be like, oh my God, you're so permissive. But if you ask Kylie, does she get whatever she wants? She'll also say no. But she knows that we care about whatever she wants. And usually what I'll start with is, here's what's preventing me from saying yes. And if you can help me figure out how to meet this need, that's behind me not being able to say yes, then we'll be able to move forward. So all of a sudden now that, you know, Kylie's on the same team as me, we're both trying to figure out how to meet this need. And if we can meet this need, then there's a yes that follows. Or we shift what they want or we shift what I want, but somehow we get to meet this need.

Alona Pulde:

And what you build in them in that moment is self-awareness, tapping into their own internal barometer and coming up and getting that creativity to come up with solutions that address your needs and theirs. So it's a win-win, win-win on so many levels. So for all parents kind of in this situation of, you know, and regardless of what the actual circumstance is, but in that you know, having that strong-willed kid and feeling like, oh, the only way to get them to actually connect to family values is to control them. What are the tool, what's a tool that we can offer parents here?

Matthew Lederman:

Yes, I think it's about helping the parent, helping the child connect to their values. So we'll call this values in the mirror. And it's, imagine a child who's, um, active and performing in sports, say soccer, and wanting to be able to eat more sweets and junk. So what do we do when we think we don't want to eat junk, it's going to affect their performance, and they want to eat more junk? Well, the first thing we talk about is softening. When they say, Dad, I want more junk food. Dad, can I have more of this? Can I have more of that? And before you answer, it's very important to let go of the yes or no. Don't get into yes or no. Say, hey, I want to connect first and first to myself. Can I soften my tone? Can I soften my body? Can I just take a breath here and say, okay, let me connect to my needs. There's a good reason they want junk. There's a good reason why I'm resistant to them having that junk. Let's figure that out. And if we both can see that together, we'll figure out what to do. I'm pretty confident about that. So once I soften, then I reflect the values, not the behavior. And I can say, you know, I know you've been pushing really hard in soccer. You work so hard. Doing your best and performing really well really matters to you. So I'm hitting the need of mattering and performance, which is really stuff that I'm worried about. I want them to optimize performance, and I worry about how junk affects that. But then also I connect to their needs, which is, hey, you know, junk food, it's stimulating. It's a little bit of pleasure. If you've been withholding junk food, it gives you a little bit of relief to not have to restrict it anymore. Your kids are eating it. I mean, your friends are eating it. So it looks like it's fun and it tastes so good. So I can see all the good reasons you want junk food, too. And then I ask them, I say, hey, am I getting all the good reasons you want the junk food? So do you see how I get out of the yes or no and I start to get into their world? I really want to see all the good reasons they want the junk food. And then we can move on to just helping them start to see that and saying, hey, you've been making lots of choices. And I just want to know whether it's eating junk food or device usage, even making choices around practice. And how is all that affecting your body and how you play? And just start to help them flesh out a little bit. What are these choices doing for your performance? And what do you think helps and gets in the way? And how do you feel? And how do you think you would feel? Let's say we just ate candy all day and then you had to go play a soccer game. So I just want, and make it clear why I'm asking them to do that. I'm asking you to do that because it just helps me make sure that you understand the impact of all these possible choices that we can make. And you remind them, I'm not saying yes or no. I just want to make sure you're really understanding before we determine what to do. So again, stay away from strategizing right now. And then invite them, hey, you know, Do you want some help figuring out how to fuel your body better? Would that be helpful? Because if they say, no, I don't really care about that right now, then you talking about it, they're just going to gloss over and let you finish. You can even ask them, hey, do you need more structure around device time and things to do instead of devices? Would that be helpful right now? If they say no, then you know, okay, let's not go there right now. It doesn't mean we don't go there. It just means right now they're not open to it. So then I would say, but I'd like to look at this stuff together because what's going to help me say yes or no or figure out what to do is that I understand and I hear from you the impact of fueling your body with different things and the impact of device on your body. Can you help me? Can we talk about that together? And then just sort of anchor in this shared wisdom, which is I trust that you're figuring this out. And I also have experience that can help. Can you see that I have experience that even if it's different than your experience, just to get them to acknowledge like, hey, I have some experience, but I care about yours too. They'll listen to your experience if they don't think that you're just bringing up your experience to stop them. If they trust that you're open to collaborating, they would love to hear your experience. But most kids are worried that the parent's sole focus is on getting what the parent wants. So I make it very clear. That's not what I'm trying to do. And let's keep checking in. And I talk about this. Let's figure this out. What works? What's not? So that we don't have to find a strategy even today. And then I can say, okay, but even if I wanted to give a win to them, I could say, you know what, let's use your device today or let's have some more junk today. But I'm not whole about this. So before we figure out anything tomorrow, I'd like to really get a clear plan. I'd like to hear more about the impact of this on your body, on your performance. And then can we work together to get a plan? around this because junk food is such that it makes you want it every single day, even sometimes every single hour. And I'm worried that I'm not clear how you're going to navigate that poll.

Alona Pulde:

And I love that. Can I just summarize kind of what I heard, which is really kind of soften and shift into curiosity, reflect the values that are important to them, not the behavior that you're wanting to change. And then holding that and really allowing them to lean into what is so important to them, whether that's soccer or an activity or whatever it is, and then engaging. Invite them. Don't try and convince them, which I think is a really important piece and probably one of the hardest for parents is to invite the children into a state and a state of collaboration, not trying to convince them to change their behavior and then offer. shared wisdom. So not only invite them to collaborate and to come up with their own ideas, but offer your personal experience and expertise and see if that's a welcome piece of wisdom that they can take on. And I think the challenge here is not only for the children to trust that you're inviting them into a collaborative space and not trying to convince them, but also for the parents to release the urgency to convince. You mentioned a couple of times, I don't care what happens today. I care what happens ongoing. But sometimes in the moment, in a moment of reactivity, that's a really hard thing to wrap your head around and be comfortable with. You know, where parrots can get very caught in. I absolutely care about what happens today because what happens today is going to happen tomorrow and the next day and the next day.

Matthew Lederman:

Right. And that's the lack of trust that gets in the way. One is that we've let it build up. So today feels much heavier than just today. We've watched them use the iPad over and over again. We've watched them eat junk over and over again. So it's not the weight of a single choice. It's the weight of all this building up. And then we don't trust that, hey, if I let them today, they're going to just, you know, green light to every day. But I think if you make clear with your children that I don't care so much what we do today, I care about getting a plan around navigating these poles in your life, the addiction, the addictive properties of some of these foods or the devices. And when you want it tomorrow, I don't want to have to be the one that decides yes or no. I want to figure out how you are going to navigate these tough choices in your life because eventually, and my kids hate when I say this, I'll say, when you're off in college by yourself, I need to trust, I need peace of mind that you're going to be able to navigate these decisions, whether it's device usage or candy usage or whatever other habit I'm worried about.

Alona Pulde:

I think one of the things that you're doing with this tool is also creating expanding their perspective to see beyond just one need, which is their need for pleasure at the moment, whether that's device use or junk food. But you're connecting them to their needs for health, their needs for movement, their need for competence, to really shine in their sport or to shine in their area of interest. So you're putting all those needs on the table for them and having them see all of that together. And then they see, oh, well, you know, my desire for junk food might meet my need for pleasure, but look at all these needs that it's not meeting at that same time. And that connection to, again, their internal barometer, that's what's going to help them long-term. And that's going to provide a tremendous amount of ease and peace for parents because this is not going to be a fight every single night.

Matthew Lederman:

Yeah, and that's what I'm always, I'm always playing the long game. I don't want to be in a fight. I don't want to be your gatekeeper for all things bad for your body. And like I said, I'm more worried about them in college than I am. I can control them right now, but when they get old enough where I can't control them, I'm just saying, I mean, I can physically, you know, I'm stronger. I have more power now, but eventually I'm not. So what I'm playing for is the long game so that they can, by the time they, they have all of the power, that they already know how to make these decisions. Yes.

Alona Pulde:

Yes. And you want them to be making those decisions. Like for me, college, yes. But also when they're with friends and when I'm not there to oversee those decisions, I want to be able to trust that they have an internal barometer that will lead them in a healthy and safe direction.

Producer:

Yeah. So

Matthew Lederman:

let's show what that looks like. So if you approach this where the child is asking for something that you don't want or is not doing something that you do want, when you show up without the skills versus with the skills, which one do you want to show?

Alona Pulde:

Oh, I can do the no skills really, really well. Okay. Let's do the junk food one because we talked about the device, you know, pretty extensively with Jordan. So I'll have Kylie come up to me and she just– she wants candy. She wants candy today. She wants candy tomorrow. And then on top of candy, she wants cookies. And I start getting overwhelmed and– connect to a tremendous amount of fear for her health. And so the answer is no. You aren't candy? No. You had so much candy yesterday. Absolutely not today. That was easy.

Matthew Lederman:

So the emotional tone is more escalating, exhausted, defensive.

Alona Pulde:

Oh, it's tight and there's no negotiation. This is not collaborative. This is I said, no, no.

Matthew Lederman:

The child argues, deflects, clings to what they're- I don't even

Alona Pulde:

want to hear it. Yes. As they escalate, I escalate too. You asked me one more time, there will never be junk food in this house again, right? So

Matthew Lederman:

there's a disconnection and all the power struggles and the parents- Absolutely. Has this story that they're being disrespected and it's a whole spiral.

Alona Pulde:

Absolutely.

Matthew Lederman:

Right. So then with skills, the emotional tone would be more curious, connected, and trying to get aligned on the values, trying to make sure we both are clear that we share the same values, the values behind why the child wants to eat. You always start with the child as the parent. Why does the child want the candy? We talked about that. Pleasure, fun, ease, some relief if they've been restricting junk food. They're sort of belonging. Their friends eat that way. They saw it on TV. It's stimulating. So there's all sorts of good reasons. Can I connect to all of those good reasons? Be very much values aligned. And then the child's reaction, they'll pause maybe. They'll be less reactive. They'll be open to some reflection. As soon as you say yes, Before we decide what to do, remember, always before we decide what to do, let's put that on the side. Can I make sure I just get clear on all the good reasons you want that right now?

Alona Pulde:

I love that. Can you actually take us through the dialogue of a connected pro skills response? So your kid comes in then for the third night in a row, wants ice cream before dinner.

Matthew Lederman:

So I first, what I do is always internal. I'll be like, oh, this was the third night in a row. This is bigger than one. I have three nights now built up and I'm letting it all out now. So it feels like I know now is so important. So I own that. And then I say, my need is health and sort of predictability and ease. I don't want to be the gatekeeper and I'm on a predictability around what's going to happen tomorrow night and the next night. So I'm clear on all these needs. It's not just health. And then I accept the child. And again, I do the empathy. hey, I get all these, I'm guessing. And before we decide yes or no, which is what I was saying before, before we decide yes or no, can I just make sure I'm clear all the good reasons you want this? And I guess, and again, it's those same ones around acceptance and belonging and stimulation and pleasure and relief. And I don't just use those words. I explain what that means like I did. And then the child's like, yeah, dad, that's exactly why I want the candy. And I'd be like, that's great. It makes so much sense why you want the candy. Before we decide what we're going to do tonight, again, I say how I stop that. Before we decide what we're going to do tonight, can I just make sure you're clear on all the needs of mine that are coming up that are making it hard for me to say yes to candy tonight, even though I hear how much you want it? So again, I always hold that so they don't have to get defensive. I'm always seeing them. And they'll say, yeah, Dad, I can hear. Great. So even though it's so delicious and all those wonderful things, I'm also worried about health issues. And what are we going to do? Not so much tonight, but every night because candy is such that it makes you want to eat it every night. So if we can get a good plan and I can figure out what meets your need for health as well as mine and how we're going to handle these decisions tomorrow and the next night and so on. Once we get that figured out, then we can move forward with tonight. Can you help me figure out a plan long term? And then we can figure out tonight because tonight doesn't really matter to me. It's more long term. And then they'll usually work with me on it.

Alona Pulde:

I love that. I love that. In going with your child and connecting to their values and offering that steady guidance, you become like a compass, not a controller, and you're navigating together. They're navigating with you versus

Matthew Lederman:

against you. Right. Instead of us being apart from each other, they come back over to this side with me, and we're like, here's the challenge, and we're both looking at the table together on the same team. Bringing it home.

Alona Pulde:

So how do we bring it home?

Matthew Lederman:

So I would tell the child, again, the explain it, invite it, model it, and practice it. And I would explain to the child that the way I've been navigating these things has been me telling you what to do and me being the gatekeeper. I don't want to do that anymore. So I learned how to talk through these tricky moments differently, especially around food and device and all the things that we usually argue about. Would you be open to trying it differently next time? And then I'll say, okay, now let's invite, hey, next time, would it be okay if I start with making sure I share all of the good reasons you want what you want or don't want what you don't want? So can I make sure next time that's how I'm going to start? I really want to get into your shoes and see it through your eyes versus just saying yes or no. So I'm inviting them and saying, maybe next time this is what we're going to do. And then I'll model it. So in the heat of the moment, I'll say, oh, you know what? I was tempted to lecture you and just say no when you asked me, but I'm trying to do it differently. Remember we talked about that? Here's an example of we're going to do it differently. And remember what I said? The first thing I'm going to do is talk about all the good reasons you want what you want or don't want what you don't want. So I'm going to tell you what I'm hearing, and then you can add anything I'm missing. So that's how I model it. And I own it. And then we practice it. And we practice it over and over again. And I say, you know, that not only worked that time. Let's try it again. What do you think if we do it again next time? How'd that feel to you? Is there anything you'd like to do differently? Is there anything you'd like to add? But, you know, let's come up with our way to do this every time. And then at that point, you know, they can hear your needs and then you can strategize what to do. But it's all about explain what you want to do differently. invite it and model it in the moment and then practice it over and over again. Just one

Producer:

last thing.

Alona Pulde:

It's important to remember that control really demands obedience. It doesn't invite partnership, which connection can and does. So in that connected space, that's where your child still grows, but they learn that they don't have to grow alone. And you're there to invite them into collaboration, not convince them to obey. I

Matthew Lederman:

like it. I like it. We should do a whole show on control and obedience. Because a lot of people think those are needs, and those are really strategies. Well, stay tuned. Take a moment to rate and review the podcast. You can email us with any questions, parents at webetogether.com. And next week, we'll be talking with some letters from our listeners, and we'll be diving in a little deeper to this topic. It'll be great.

Alona Pulde:

I love it. Thanks, everyone, for listening. All right. Thank you. Bye.