The Hidden Science of Addiction: How Trauma Shapes the Brain and Recovery

What if addiction isn’t about weakness or willpower—but about how we learned to soothe pain, seek safety, and feel alive? In this illuminating episode of The ANEW Insight Podcast, Dr. Supatra Tovar sits down with licensed clinical psychologist and addiction and trauma specialist Dr. Kenneth Skale to explore the psychology behind addiction, attachment, and the emotional roots of compulsive behavior.

The conversation dives into the “seeking system,” a powerful brain mechanism that drives motivation, curiosity, and reward. Based on the work of neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp, Dr. Skale describes how dopamine doesn’t simply reward pleasure—it energizes the pursuit of it. Whether it’s the thrill of a shopping spree, the anticipation of a drink, or the ritual before a binge, the chase itself becomes intoxicating.

Dr. Tovar and Dr. Skale also unpack the deep link between attachment trauma and addiction. When early emotional needs go unmet or caregivers respond with criticism or neglect, children learn to suppress vulnerable parts of themselves to preserve connection. As adults, these disowned emotions—loneliness, shame, anger—resurface, driving the search for comfort in substances or behaviors that offer predictable, nonjudgmental relief.

Listeners will come away with a compassionate understanding of how trauma, emotional disconnection, and the brain’s reward circuitry interact to sustain addiction—and why true recovery means healing the root cause, not just managing symptoms.

Together, Dr. Tovar and Dr. Skale illuminate a path toward self-awareness, emotional regulation, and reconnection—with ourselves and others. Whether you’re a clinician, a loved one, or someone seeking recovery, this episode offers practical wisdom and hope for anyone ready to transform pain into purpose.

Would you like to know more about Dr. Kenneth Skale? Here are his social media channels :  https://pasadenahealing.com/kennethskale,   https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/kenneth-skale-pasadena-ca/209374,  https://www.pchtreatment.com/staff/kenneth-skale-psyd,  https://www.lacpa.org/index.php?option=com_dailyplanetblog&tag=humanity. 

🔑 What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• The three defining components of addiction—and how to identify them
• Why the brain’s “seeking system” keeps us chasing dopamine
• How emotional self-soothing becomes dependency
• The neuroscience behind compulsive habits and pleasure
• The role of attachment trauma in addictive behavior
• Why recovery requires both behavioral change and emotional healing
• How motivational interviewing helps clients face ambivalence with compassion
  
  

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Thank you for joining us on this journey to wellness. Remember, the insights and advice shared on the ANEW Body Insight Podcast are for educational and informational purposes only and do not constitute medical advice. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making any changes to your health routine. To learn more about the podcast and stay updated on new episodes, visit ANEW Body Insight Podcast at anew-insight.com. To watch this episode on YouTube, visit @my.anew.insight. Follow us on social media at @my.anew.insight on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Threads for more updates and insights. Thank you for tuning in! Stay connected with us for more empowering stories and expert guidance. Until next time, stay well and keep evolving with ANEW Body Insight!

Transcript

Dr. Supatra Tovar: 0:00

Hi. Welcome to the ANEW Insight podcast. I am so thrilled and excited to have licensed clinical psychologist and addiction and trauma specialist Dr. Kenneth Skale with me today. Hi Kenneth. How are you? He earned his doctorate from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology in Los Angeles and completed his pre-doctoral internship at Canyon Ridge Psychiatric Hospital. Dr. Skale has since worked in residential and outpatient settings and completed a two year postdoctoral fellowship in psychodynamic therapy at Rose City Center in Pasadena.

Dr. Kenneth Skale: 0:02

Thank you. That's quite an intro. Now I'm pumped. Let's, let's do this. Oh sure. So like many people in our profession. I was always the person my friends talked to about, whatever was going on in their lives. And so that, that's been pretty continuous since I was young. But even my own experiences in therapy, beginning at I think eight years old gave me kind of the patient's view of what talk therapy could do, how it could be helpful, and throughout different periods of my life, it's made a huge impact on me. And helped me work through some things, and particularly as I was just about to finish high school, I went back for another course and I had a profound experience that made me switch my major from business to psychology right before undergrad, and I never looked back. So that, that really was my trajectory into the field, And it was so annoying 'cause you tried to, drinking water can help you or you just try to kind of pop your ears somehow. And it was really disruptive. And there was one session I had with my therapist at the time who's an outstanding clinician, and it was actually an interpretation she made to me. And then it was gone. She connected two things that I was kind of in conflict about internally. And from that moment, it never happened again.

Dr. Supatra Tovar: 0:05

Oh, absolutely. Wow. So then, no, looking back from there, that experience was, profound and I think a really clear example of how our problems, with the way either we're thinking or with trauma that we've gone through, or anything that's happening kind of on the mental side, can show up in us physically.

Dr. Kenneth Skale: 0:06

So in my school when I was going through picking practicum sites, they, our training program only allowed you to apply to certain sites, and it was to make sure students had a, an equal shot at getting something. And the site that I was allowed, that was the most competitive that I was allowed to apply to was a methadone clinic that also did therapy

Dr. Kenneth Skale: And so I applied to that, was accepted and spent a year showing up at 5:00 AM with folks who, if, if your listeners have not heard about methadone, it's an opioid replacement. So instead of going through agonizing withdrawal from opioids like heroin fentanyl, those sorts of things Vicodin, they take this medicine instead every day. That staves off the withdrawal, prevents addictive behavior and, and helps them slowly ease off of the physical dependence. But that means that when they show up at 5:00 AM they are clamoring for their dose. And the way that this clinic was set up was they had to do therapy first. And so at 5: 0:07

00 AM I was showing up talking to people who were itching to get their medicine. And so not the friendliest environment for my first practicum, but I fell in love with it 'cause I got to hear and meet some incredible people and, and really get to know the stories behind. The folks who were walking in and, and found themselves in that situation. and I developed a comfort with. That, that kind of situation. And so ever since then, in subsequent practicums internship fellowship in, in practice, whenever an addiction, a folk where someone struggling with addiction would get referred in, they would often get sent to me because of that experience.

Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wow, that's really, I can't even imagine a practicum starting at 5: 0:08

00 AM but one in a methadone clinic. Yes. That is like, you know, you, you weren't just dipping your toes in, you like jumping completely into the deep end, which I'm sure just helped to hone your skills and really gave you insight, very clear insight into the nature of addiction.

Dr. Kenneth Skale: 0:09

I think there's three components to that. Everybody tries at least some drugs or alcohol. Obviously everyone has probably gambled at some point in their life. Most people have least tried porn a couple times. Everyone tries just about everything. there a select few for whom it sticks. And this is the first component is it comes to fill an emotional role in their life. So it, whatever it is, if it's alcohol, if it's food, it be, or pornography, it begins to soothe or meet an emotional need. It could be many things, but it that becomes a very well worn groove. And then every day or regularly, it's something that they're doing to self-soothe or get through the day. The second piece is impairment. So, I mean, I, I certainly probably would meet the criteria for dependence on coffee shamelessly to admit And so that would be the second piece. third is, I think it's you'll often notice is if someone is engaging in something that they know is not great for them, like say it's more of a bad habit or something, they could be pretty open about that. They might even joke about it. They'll be transparent if someone in the back of their mind knows. This is something I don't want to give up. I don't really want to take a hard look at it. They will do all sorts of things in conversation to not really look at it clearly, whether that's minimizing its impact, reporting less than they're usually using. Even just managing to not think about what it's doing to them or what they're losing. That's a common thing. And so I would say if it's filling an emotional role in your life and it's, that's been sustained over time, it's causing impairment and you are loathed to take a clear look at that.

Dr. Supatra Tovar: 0:11

Yes. That's what I see with clients that I've treated for substance abuse, pornography, food addiction, that it starts with some need to self-soothe some need what, what, whatever the, the cause is. A lot of times it's trauma in their past. It can be anxiety over, you know, just even adulting and just not really feeling like you have And so that's when the cognitive dissonance comes in. If they're not ready to stop, they're going to do whatever it takes to kind of explain it away. Well, I need that break. Or, you know, this is actually good for me. Or, you know, this helps me x, y, z in my life. How do you get people past the cognitive dissonance That is, I think, the most challenging part of it, especially when you kind of look at it on the motivational interviewing scale when they're just like, I don't know if there's really a problem.

Dr. Kenneth Skale: 0:13

And I don't outside of similar rare circumstances, I don't take a very firm stand on what they opt to do. My curiosity is in helping them feel understood and then helping them reckon with the part of them that really wants to keep doing it cuz it is doing something for them and feels judged for doing it. At the same time, reckoning with the part of them that knows it causes a problem. Or at least it's damaging the way that other people view them or it's damaged their financial situation or their health. And the more you can get someone to sit with both aspects, more often than not, people choose to make a change. Sometimes they don't.

Dr. Supatra Tovar: 0:14

Yeah, that's what I've seen, especially in my work with food addictions, but also in the other areas of addictions. So let's get into the weeds a little bit more. Talk about some of the, the different types of addictions you treat and how behavioral addictions like gambling or compulsive eating compared to say, like substance related addictions.

Dr. Kenneth Skale: 0:15

It's a great question about what's the similarity and difference between a behavioral addiction and substance related. The biggest difference is that with a behavioral addiction, for the most part, you don't have a physiological withdrawal syndrome. So I mentioned opioids earlier. you can imagine the worst flu you've ever had, like say some, some people got COVID pretty bad. Imagine that. But times two. In terms of the nausea, the body aches, the shivering, the sense of panic. That's what opioid withdrawal is like. And so for the, that's the biggest difference is that substance dependence comes with these sort of built in biological risks. and also I, I mean I, I, I think some substances are more intense than others. No one's ever that I'm aware of actually passed away from smoking too much weed. acutely you can die from a heroin overdose. You can have a heart attack from way too much cocaine or methamphetamine. and so I think there, there's an inherent more risky element in that way. The ways that they're similar though, I think is not discussed enough. Is very important. Are you familiar with a guy named Jaak Panksepp? anyone who's watching who is in the field of psychology and interested in any sort of and addiction should probably go read that book. It talks about a number of things, the most important of which is called the Seeking System inside of us. It's this neurological system that's below your limbic system in something called your midbrain, it's literally the capacity to become excited and motivated to go get things. So when you're hungry, when you're lonely, when you have, you have an interest in something, that feeling of excitement, like you're gonna go find out, you're gonna open a present and see what it is you're feeling, that motivation to go work hard and earn and achieve The capacity for that feeling is a seeking system at work, and it's all mediated by dopamine. A lot of what people understand as the do what they call the dopamine reward system is not quite right. There's this idea out there that let's say whatever drug it is, let's say it's alcohol, that when I go drink, I get a reward of dopamine, and that's why I do it. That's only true, maybe the first or second time, at least to any real, real intense degree. After that it's actually, it's some, it's not a new experience anymore. actually the act of going to get it and doing it. That is rewarding in itself. Shopping? Absolutely. The window shopping, you don't have it yet. You're just acquiring and seeking. That's the addictive component. The behavior, the, the behavior initially when it's a new experience provides a huge surge of dopamine. So we remember it, oh, this was a positive experience, but now anytime I'm stressed, my seeking system activates and I feel motivated energized to go towards this thing say even though, even though let's say getting high might feel good, there is so much excitement and gratification in the ritual as you prep to get high, whether it's preparing whatever drug making, whatever food, going to the casino, whatever it is, that whole process is exciting and stimulating in itself. if it was just at the end result, I get something, it would be miserable going to pick up whatever you're, you're gonna pick up. But it's not, the whole thing is exciting and that becomes the addictive process.

Dr. Supatra Tovar: 0:21

reward seeking behavior that she embarks on before. She has a binge. She visits like seven different fast food restaurants. Rents a hotel, lays out the food on the bed, gets naked to eat it. It's just bizarre. But then that, that's her ritual to do that. So I can imagine that that's very similar to what you're talking about.

Dr. Kenneth Skale: 0:22

A, a big one would be in addition to the three that we talked about, right? Filling, filling an emotional function. I think. A big one would be ability to inability to stop despite negative consequences. So if you have a bad habit and you can kind of talk about it freely, maybe it's a guilty pleasure, it's starting to cause you problems, you can probably stop if you're unable to. so I think there, that's a, that's a, I think an important question. Maybe one that there, there's not so much disagreement about now. I think maybe. In the past, different decades ago, there could be a lot more focus on behaviorally controlling addictive behavior. I think now it's pretty well accepted the field of psychology, in in a any role field you go to that the underlying emotional issues need work as well. So you ask about social relationships. So attachment trauma is during the, the critical process of someone's very early years, months old. Up to three years old, even four years old, there's a very important process of bonding and feeling attuned to by parents, when you have an emotional need and you cry out, or you come to your parents, they're able to reasonably quickly intuit that need, not perfectly, but reasonably quickly, figure out what that is. Respond appropriately help you understand what your feelings are. Regulate yourself. Get you what you need, and you develop an understanding of your own ability to of your own feelings and ability to regulate those feelings. But also you just develop basically a your whole self can feel welcomed. So there's no part of you that is unacceptable. If your parents are, even if you're angry, if you're needy, if you're a little kid and you're crying, if your parents can be reasonably open again, every parent gets frustrated. I get frustrated with my kids on occasion. But if you can be reasonably open, that kid learns all of me as welcome. One of the issues that can happen is when parents are overly frustrated with their kids or respond in a sort of critical cold way when the kid is upset. Or crying or what have you. The kid learns that because of the importance of the bond with the parents, the kid learns this part of me, this feeling I have is a threat to the bond and so I need to do away with this feeling. And that might be through repression or many other you can say defense mechanisms that people use. And so what that means is that as they grow up, they encounter anxiety about their own feelings. 'cause their feelings are a threat to the bond with others. in that way, when you ask about social connection as a, as a cause of addiction or social disconnection rather, i agree with that. But deep down it's because they don't feel like all of them is welcome with others. So when someone's going through a hard time and actually, or is angry or sad or lonely or humiliated or whatever, and that's when they need the social connection, most of all, that's when they would withdraw. That's when they don't share it. Respond appropriately help you understand what your feelings are. Regulate yourself. Get you what you need, and you develop an understanding of your own ability to of your own feelings and ability to regulate those feelings. But also you just develop basically a your whole self can feel welcomed. So there's no part of you that is unacceptable. If your parents are, even if you're angry, if you're needy, if you're a little kid and you're crying, if your parents can be reasonably open again, every parent gets frustrated. I get frustrated with my kids on occasion. But if you can be reasonably open, that kid learns all of me as welcome. One of the issues that can happen is when parents are overly frustrated with their kids or respond in a sort of critical cold way when the kid is upset. Or crying or what have you. The kid learns that because of the importance of the bond with the parents, the kid learns this part of me, this feeling I have is a threat to the bond and so I need to do away with this feeling. And that might be through repression or many other you can say defense mechanisms that people use. And so what that means is that as they grow up, they encounter anxiety about their own feelings. 'cause their feelings are a threat to the bond with others. in that way, when you ask about social connection as a, as a cause of addiction or social disconnection rather, i agree with that. But deep down it's because they don't feel like all of them is welcome with others. So when someone's going through a hard time and actually, or is angry or sad or lonely or humiliated or whatever, and that's when they need the social connection, most of all, that's when they would withdraw. That's when they don't share it.

Dr. Supatra Tovar: 0:27

Later than three and up, you know, there's, there's a lot of breaches that can happen at different times in their lives. Like one of my clients had one when he was an adult, and it was really traumatic for him and led, to him having difficulties with substances. And so it's very important, I think, to analyze that and to find ways to achieve safety in