Ruby Slippers - Misty Leon

What happens when a former child actor, ERISA lawyer, and Fortune 500 in-house counsel walks into a coffee shop?

In this case, she orders a lavender chai latte* and starts reimagining what a legal career can look like. 

*served best in an actual coffee mug, preferably with fancy foam art and enjoyed while sitting in a coffee shop

In this episode of Counsel Brew, we sit down with Misty Leon, who at the time of recording was serving as in-house counsel at Texas Instruments. Misty's career has taken her from private practice to the corporate legal department to founder and principal of the freshly launched Practical Counsel Advisors, with a few unexpected stops along the way, including a bread commercial, starring as Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, and surviving meetings that involved more conversations with a dog named Mr. Barkey than actual legal work.

Because every legal career deserves at least one story that makes everyone ask, "Wait...what?"

We explore Misty's journey from aspiring child actor and ruby-slipper-wearing Dorothy to respected legal leader and in-house counsel. We talk about intentionally choosing a niche legal practice, navigating major career pivots, and the coaching and self-reflection that helped her discover what she wanted next. Misty shares insights on building meaningful professional relationships, overcoming the hesitation that often keeps talented people from pursuing new opportunities, and embracing growth even when it feels uncomfortable. We also dive into the future of AI and legal operations, the value of staying curious throughout your career, and why having a friend who occasionally tells you to "just do the thing" might be one of the most underrated professional advantages out there.

One of the themes we love exploring on Counsel Brew is that successful careers are built through a series of small decisions that often don't seem significant at the time.

Attending a bar association event.

Following up with someone you genuinely enjoy.

Trying something that feels uncomfortable.

Volunteering for the panel even when you'd rather hide behind the podium.

Misty's career is proof that those moments add up.

Also, if you ever find yourself sitting through a two-hour meeting while someone discusses dog treats with their pet, remember: someday it may become podcast content.

Listen now:  

Find Misty at https://www.linkedin.com/in/misty-a-leon/

Learn more about Practical Counsel Advisors at https://www.practicalcounseladvisors.com/

Message us at hello@counselbrew.com  

Visit us at http://www.counselbrew.com 

And Follow us 

@counselbrew

https://www.linkedin.com/company/counsel-brew/

 Explicit Rating is for the occasional use of colorful language.

Transcript

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speaker-0 (01:22)
Welcome to Counsel Brew. Today we have with us Misty Leon. She is in-house counsel at Texas Instruments and has had a long career before going in-house in private practice. So we are excited to talk to you about your pivot. and also I think you dove in during the pandemic to learning a little bit more about yourself and professionally and really trying to, I don't know.

Spread your wings and fly in both capacities. So we're excited to have you here today.

speaker-1 (01:52)
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I've done a couple of podcasts, but they were really focused on what it's like to be an employee benefits lawyer. And although I'm happy to talk to you about that, I'm excited after listening to other episodes of your podcast to think we're probably going to talk about totally different things. So

speaker-2 (02:10)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (02:10)
We're we're not gonna do a deep hard dive into ERISA although

speaker-2 (02:15)
So

I'm glad you exist, but I that is not a topic. just talking about privilege related to ERISA makes my brain hurt, let alone all the ins and outs ERISA law.

speaker-0 (02:27)
It's

kind of one of those It's one of those topics where you're like, my God, who do I know?

speaker-1 (02:33)
Right. Well, I am thankful that there were other people who thought that was a good thing to talk about for 30 plus minutes, but also really happy to chat about other things today. So thank you for having me.

speaker-0 (02:45)
This will be law light, as we say. Great. Yeah.

speaker-2 (02:49)
didn't

we say that? I've never we've never said that before. Law light. I like it.

speaker-0 (02:52)
I mean I just made that up, but it's generally

speaker-2 (02:56)
Law light.

speaker-1 (02:59)
Perfect. That's what I'm ready for.

speaker-2 (03:01)
It can be our new tagline. Law Light. It's Law Light. Okay.

speaker-0 (03:06)
So Misty, as you know, our first question to get things kicked off is, what is your favorite brew?

speaker-1 (03:15)
I do know that. So it would be kind of embarrassing if I came unprepared for that, right? So I do drink coffee, but nothing that's really interesting enough to talk about in the podcast. So my favorite drink to have when I go to a coffee shop is a chai latte. And I really like it. If I can sit in the coffee shop.

Have it in an actual mug and sometimes they do that cool foam art on the top, like hearts or some cute swirl. So that that I would say is my standard order anywhere I go. there's also the cafe that's outside Nordstrom at the mall has a chai with lavender, which I highly recommend for anybody who likes chai. And I guess also lavender.

speaker-2 (04:05)
What is the name of that little coffee shop?

speaker-0 (04:07)
I don't know, but I do like their Mexican hot chocolate during the holidays.

speaker-2 (04:10)
I've never had that there, but I definitely have enjoyed there's something about sitting in that little cafe and overpaying, but now everything's you're overpaying for coffee. Right.

speaker-0 (04:20)
I

love I love North Park. It has a special place in my heart. I'm not a

speaker-2 (04:24)
mall person,

but I do appreciate that little cafe.

And Neiman's is is Neem yeah, Neiman's is still that that's not the one did you say it Neem North

speaker-1 (04:32)
No, the one outside Nordstrom, there's one at North Park and at Galleria. And I'm also not a mall person. So somehow I have managed to find this cafe. So that must make it really special.

speaker-2 (04:43)
Like it's not at north.

speaker-0 (04:45)
North, yes it is.

speaker-2 (04:46)
The little cafe? Yeah. Outside of what?

speaker-0 (04:49)
It's right outside. the It's not

speaker-2 (04:51)
The one in Nordstrom okay, sorry, yes.

Yes, okay, not Neiman's. Right.

speaker-0 (04:56)
Not in humans. No.

speaker-2 (04:57)
There is one outside Neiman's at a different mall. Yeah.

speaker-0 (05:00)
Yes.

speaker-2 (05:01)
Okay. I'm with you. This is important. Logistics are important.

speaker-1 (05:04)
It's

important to establish somebody might go look for that lavender chai and they're just gonna be wandering around lost.

speaker-2 (05:11)
Exactly. It could be me. Cause I too like a chai latte, but as most people who listen now know, I really like a dirty chai.

speaker-0 (05:22)
Hm. But now you could do a dirty lavender chai.

speaker-2 (05:24)
I

like it. I think so I'm gonna replace one pump of the chai with one pump of lavender. Okay.

speaker-0 (05:30)
Okay.

speaker-2 (05:30)
'Cause I always I always take out a pump of chai 'cause then it's like overwhelming. the dirty is a shot of espresso.

speaker-1 (05:37)
Okay, I think I have had that. Yeah.

speaker-2 (05:40)
So

if you haven't gotten dirty, you should because it tastes really kind.

speaker-1 (05:46)
I feel inspired now to get dirty.

speaker-0 (05:50)
Thinking about the like lavender floral under tone with the chai. Like that's gonna that's gonna be interesting. I'm gonna go

speaker-2 (05:59)
Already like tasting it in your mouth.

speaker-0 (06:01)
shoe shopping this week, it's happening.

speaker-2 (06:05)
Shrek.

speaker-1 (06:08)
sorry for that i i can appreciate any excuse to go shoe shopping but yeah

speaker-2 (06:14)
I have two friends that are Nordstrom obsessed and Shereen is one of them. My other girlfriend, any anything and everything is Nordstrom. And literally last weekend I was trying to find an outfit because I had two speaking engagements last week, which was wonderful. But I one of them I was moderating and I thought, okay, I really need to look the part to moderate, but not have it not have me be the focus, but also

you know, look pleasing and kind of you know, that special balance you're trying to strike. Anyways, so she's like, let's go to Nordstrom's. So we plan on Saturday to connect to go to Nordstrom's. And the next thing I and I told her I can't go till the afternoon. The next thing I know, it's like eleven in the morning. It must have been right after they opened. She's at Nordstrom's already. And I'm like, you couldn't wait a couple of hours to go. And not only was she at Nordstrom's to shop, but she also had a trunk full of items to return.

And it she had so much stuff to return that it took her two trips. Yeah. But

speaker-0 (07:13)
that's special. I don't do that.

speaker-2 (07:15)
then she bought more. You do with shoes.

speaker-0 (07:17)
No, I don't return them. Well,

speaker-2 (07:19)
you just keep all.

speaker-0 (07:21)
that's why I go there in person to

speaker-2 (07:23)
To try them all on.

speaker-0 (07:24)
try them on. Yes, because I don't want to play that game. I'm like

speaker-2 (07:27)
In fairness,

she may have some of the clothes coming to the house, but she buys in such volume that I'm sure there's no issue with the amount that she returns because she keeps a ton of it. Right. and it she looks great.

speaker-0 (07:39)
Yeah. They did have good maternity clothes. That's the time that I do recall shipping. But generally I like I like being there. It just is what it is. And their shoe department is very nice. It is.

speaker-2 (07:51)
Large.

speaker-0 (07:52)
And it has it's it has the variety. So like you can go like high end or you can, you know, be reasonable. And then they have sneakers too. So I mean so win win win win. Win win.

speaker-2 (08:04)
It's a win. And here

you were worried we were gonna talk about ERISA law. I

speaker-1 (08:09)
No,

this is so much better than ERISA Law and I now realize Nordstrom is one of the only places that I go at the mall, so that's how I discovered this cafe. So and shoes, lots of shoes over the

speaker-0 (08:21)
I

just I just enter. I just am on the outskirts of the mall. No, I w when we first got married, we lived in Houston and I literally every single time got on the loop the wrong direction. Every single time. Like wherever we were gonna go, my husband's like, You just got on the wrong direction. We get to the mall and he's like, I'm gonna do blah blah blah and I was like, I told him exactly where to go. He's like, What is happening? And I'm like, Well, I'm only directionally impaired outside of the mall.

speaker-2 (08:51)
my gosh.

speaker-0 (08:53)
Inside I could tell you exactly how to get everywhere and things like which cafe is where, what events might be there. You know, like North Park has all the fun things during the holidays. I could tell you all about them. They do. The art show, the canstruction like all of them. So

speaker-2 (09:08)
They have the houses.

speaker-0 (09:10)
The houses, yeah, the playhouses. Yeah. Yes. So I actually really enjoy it. I spent a lot of time there in law school 'cause my husband was getting his masters in Houston. So on the weekends that we weren't hanging out, I would go people watch.

speaker-2 (09:25)
Mm, I do like people watching. It is

speaker-0 (09:26)
Is a

great place for people watching. Yeah.

speaker-1 (09:28)
All absolutely.

speaker-0 (09:30)
Yeah, that and uptown Dallas. Those are my two favorites. Now you know.

speaker-2 (09:35)
Thank you. Poor Misty. Why am I here?

speaker-1 (09:43)
Taking the heat off of me.

speaker-2 (09:45)
So Misty how did you meet Shereen 'Cause I I've seen your name lots of places, but I don't think we've actually had much interaction. But Shereen speaks very highly of you.

speaker-1 (09:56)
I appreciate that. So we met at the pitch. I think it must have been last year, because unfortunately I was not able to participate this year, but I've done it the last couple of years. So it would have been at some point in the last couple of years at the pitch. And I think you guys have actually talked about this on the podcast before, but that's this really awesome program that Dallas Women Lawyers Association hosts, where in-house counsel like myself come and give.

Growing, aspiring attorneys trying to build their practice, the opportunity to come and do practice pitches for in-house people. And so have enjoyed being able to do that. And then that was how Shereen and I met. And yeah, I s off and on, I post a lot of things on LinkedIn for kind of a period of time and then

like the last six months kind of disappear for a while and then come back at some point. So you may have seen some of that on there. I do tend to comment a lot on other people's posts, even if I'm not posting my own content. But

speaker-0 (11:05)
Yeah, well, yes, the pitch is amazing. And I did that later in my career, which I think if you were still in private practice, you would be like, Man, I wish this was around when I was a young lawyer, or if you were pivoting, because I did the opposite pivot, right? I pivoted out of in-house and went into private practice. And then I was like, I don't know how to do that. I never did that. So it was really good and got to meet a lot of people and really

Enjoy

it. And then I've also enjoyed watching your content. So you had mentioned that you have done a lot of stuff since the pandemic as far as exploring professionally and personally through coaching and other things. And I'm assuming that that's when you got your the bug to be on LinkedIn.

speaker-1 (11:51)
It is. It early in COVID, I felt pretty isolated and was just kind of looking for more contact with the outside world. And I discovered LinkedIn and in particular had previously thought about it as a place where you go to announce that you change jobs, which one only does every so often. if you're me, I've done it a little more often than some other people.

or a place that I would go post a client alert. At that time, I was a partner in a small ERISA boutique based here in Dallas. And so I started noticing that there was just a group of women lawyers in particular who were posting content and kind of thought leadership sorts of things. And it's actually how I got connected to working with coaches, and that might be something we'll talk about later. But I think I've met pretty much every

Coach that I've worked with via LinkedIn. And so it just felt like a very supportive community and something that at the time it was easy to have that outside contact with the world when we were kind of shut in our houses, at least to some extent, for a good bit of the day. And it was also a time that during the pandemic that I just did a lot of soul searching and like a lot of people really thought about is what I'm doing now, what I

want to be doing for the rest of my career. And the answer to that pretty quickly came up as no. And so that started a big journey that we could go lots of different ways on that. But yes, that was how I got inspired to spend more time on LinkedIn and eventually step out there and put some of my own content, which as I said is somewhat sporadic when I do that. But eventually I'll probably get in another spurt where I want to do that again for a few weeks. So

speaker-2 (13:42)
What causes a dry spell?

speaker-1 (13:45)
Probably more just other demands on my time. For example, right now I'm filling two roles at the same time at my company. So that leaves pretty limited time for thoughtful LinkedIn posts. Although I will say one thing I was playing with before my my last break or my current break that I'm on right now was not using AI to write the whole post.

But using it to help generate posts or parts of posts or clean up writing, you know, kind of maybe come up with some bullet point summary thoughts of what to share. So that was making it a little bit faster to do the post.

But

one thing I don't like to do is put the post up and then just disappear and not engage with the people who are kind enough to respond in the comments. And so even if I can get it up there, if I know it's gonna be days before I'm gonna come back and look at people's comments, I kind of try to avoid that. So

speaker-0 (14:44)
No, I think that's really important, you know. So, trying to as we we we do love our AI chat, but we do feed it a lot of information. We're not like, please generate this, because it always comes up with not what we want. but the consistency and like you continuing to really well, we tal we talked about this last week, personal brand yourself, and really getting that content out there about stuff that you care about, which I know women

lawyers and leadership is important to you. what we've learned through the whole, or I don't know, I've learned and then I pass it on to you. The consistency, the engaging in the comments, and then seeing how that works. But the algorithms keep changing. So it's like this crazy game. So you have to remember, yes, it is part of the job and continue to try and treat it that way. especially if you're trying to build something up and it gives you joy.

So I think that's important.

speaker-2 (15:39)
Shereen reads a lot of books about I I don't think self help is the right genre, is it?

speaker-0 (15:45)
I mean, it's more about profession I think it's personal and professional development.

speaker-2 (15:50)
Yes, and that drives me I like no.

speaker-0 (15:52)
So I give her the cliff notes version.

speaker-2 (15:54)
Yeah, I read about fairies and werewolves and vampires and important stuff.

speaker-1 (16:00)
That can be important stuff.

speaker-2 (16:03)
And and sure and Shereen's like, I listened to this book. To be fair, you don't read it.

speaker-0 (16:09)
I don't read them, no. I read one They get read to you. Well, if they're not on Audible I have to read it. but most of the time they get read to me in the car. And you know. So

speaker-2 (16:20)
You know, something that happened instant that's kind of interesting recently. speaking of this topic, so I don't know if you've ever had this. I received two random books from Barnes and Noble about a month ago. Maybe six weeks ago. I don't know. And they were it's the same book. It came in two separate packages. They were both addressed to me. and they were of this self-help professional development nature, which is

I would never purchase, I let alone two of them. And maybe I might gift it, but I did like I know that I did not buy these.

speaker-0 (16:53)
There was no no

speaker-2 (16:55)
There was nothing telling me who it was from. If you are listening and you are the sender of those books, like please let me know.

speaker-0 (17:01)
Right, 'cause I got accused. Like I would do

speaker-2 (17:03)
Yeah,

I was like, Shereen, what the fuck? Like you sent me two of these stupid books. Like I'm not even gonna read the first one and then it's not funny. I mean it's kinda funny, but what a waste of money for a joke. And she goes, I I s I haven't even read that one, I swear. Anyways, I just gifted one of And the other one's still sitting downstairs for you.

speaker-0 (17:25)
what about what about you, Misty, since you've been on this journey? Like have your reading habits changed? Are you a listener or a reader?

speaker-1 (17:33)
I was actually thinking I I'm kind of between the two of you. So I binge listen to podcasts, and I tend to get more of the personal and professional development content from podcasts. And I do occasionally read a book like that, but my reading, although I do read like

three to four books a month, but I tend to stick with more fiction on that side. Occasionally I'll throw in an autobiography of somebody I'm really interested in. But I do find it harder to just sit and focus, especially because, you know, our jobs, I'm reading all day. And so it in my free time, I want something that requires a little less brain power if I'm reading for some reason the podcast I can do. But

speaker-0 (18:19)
Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, and you're reading some pretty dense stuff that requires all engines on.

speaker-1 (18:26)
It does.

speaker-2 (18:28)
So I have I'm trying to find the name. so have you read A Court of Thorns and Roses yet?

speaker-1 (18:35)
I haven't.

speaker-2 (18:37)
my god, we just need a whole episode on that. Okay. Well, it's a five book series and supposedly she's writing the next one. her name is Sarah Mass that wrote it. Sarah, you are a queen. Have you heard of her? She's written other series. All I know is everything in your life will improve as you read this book because the women that are in it are phenomenal. The

male fey are delicious.

And you will not be able to put the book down. So your podcast will go to the wayside. Your podcast listening. It will be totally totally worth it. You both of you need to read this. Okay. I'm just or listen.

speaker-1 (19:20)
And

I I mostly listen to podcasts when I'm driving or doing some task. So probably I won't be able to read instead of the podcast, especially while I'm driving.

speaker-2 (19:33)
Well, if you're listening if you choose to listen to it and you have children, do not listen to it in the car. It is not child appropriate. Like my 17 year old could read it, but I would not be letting my 13 year old read these this particular series. Good to know. But you will be so grateful and you will call me at the end of it and just say thank you. And I you won't have to tell me why and I will know exactly what it's about.

speaker-1 (19:55)
That'll just be it. Okay. Mm-hmm. I will I will keep this in mind.

speaker-2 (19:59)
Okay.

speaker-0 (20:00)
Well,

I think that's a great segue into

speaker-2 (20:03)
inspiration.

My inspiration leads to her inspiration in life.

speaker-0 (20:07)
Yeah, like how did you go on this journey? Like was little Misty reading books and determined to become a lawyer or how did you get on this path to becoming an ERISA lawyer specifically?

speaker-2 (20:19)
Yeah,

I'm that is a that is that is a little bit complex in my brain.

speaker-0 (20:25)
For

those who don't know, what does ERISA stand for?

speaker-1 (20:29)
The Employee Retirement Income Security Act. I assume that question was for me. Yes.

speaker-0 (20:35)
'Cause I don't remember what all the letters.

speaker-2 (20:37)
E

was employee. Okay. And I knew A was act.

And I think that's all you need to know. It's something with employee

speaker-0 (20:43)
But it touches on so much stuff.

speaker-2 (20:45)
Tough.

But you're not gonna make her talk about it, right?

speaker-0 (20:48)
I'm

not gonna make her talk about it, but I mean just high level, like what what what what do you do currently?

speaker-2 (20:57)
And is this what you always dream for and then

speaker-0 (20:59)
Yeah, were you dreaming of that as a young a young person reading books for fun?

speaker-1 (21:04)
Absolutely. Okay, well, I'll start there and I'll make that the the shortest part of this story, which my stories can tend to be quite long. So ERISA is the federal statute that governs when employers offer benefits to their employees, such as your 401k plan, your health benefits, your vision dental. And so that that is the area that I've practiced in for almost 23 years, and now I'm

Picking up some other responsibilities. But to go back to how I got there, no, I did not discover the opportunity to become an ERISA attorney at the age of eight or have any story along those lines. Although I I my path was unique in that I actually did want to become an ERISA lawyer coming out of law school, but I'll get back to that. So

How I ended up in law school, it really was not the most intentional path. I'm a first-generation lawyer in my family, didn't really know any lawyers until I worked for one my senior year of college. And honestly, a lot of it was we didn't have a lot of financial resources in my family growing up, and I wanted something that seemed like it would be stable. So that's one way that I ended up becoming a lawyer.

went to law school in Virginia and my first summer, after my first year of law school. I went to work for a plaintiff's lawyer who was an ERISA lawyer. And in his case, he was a litigator and he would represent mostly executives and high income people.

That had health conditions that caused them to want to claim long-term disability. And the disability carriers had denied their claims, and they were pretty high dollar claims because usually your disability income is some percentage of what you were making. So I knew I did not want to be a litigator. I don't really have the personality for that, especially to actually go to court and speak in front of people. Motions practice, I could make me handle.

And so I did research over that summer, and I found out that you could also be an ERISA lawyer working for corporations helping support their benefits. And so I decided that was what I was going to do. And so I come back to law school, I go to my on-campus interviews, I start telling the people that.

Or interviewing me that I want to be an ERISA lawyer. And it was immediately apparent to me that no one had ever told an on-campus interviewer in the history of on-campus interviews that they wanted to be an ERISA lawyer. So I got lots of callbacks and decent number of offers. It's a good thing I actually liked.

doing it because I don't know if any of these firms would have let me switch to something else, they probably would have thought that was a really tricky bait and switch to come in and say, no, I I'd like to just be in your corporate MA group. So so that was how I ended up becoming an ERISA lawyer. And I'll pause there in case you have any other exciting questions about that.

speaker-0 (24:24)
I mean, note to self lawyers or law school students, like if if this sparks you, 'cause you know, it's it's a very specialized practice and like you said, you do have to like it, but it's also one that's in demand most of the time. So

speaker-2 (24:42)
Nobody knows it's in demand.

speaker-0 (24:44)
Well now they do.

speaker-2 (24:45)
Well no fair.

speaker-1 (24:46)
Don't tell everybody.

speaker-0 (24:49)
Okay.

speaker-2 (24:51)
Fair. I mean, unless you're an employment attorney or running an HR benefits, like if you're an HR running benefits, then you appreciate the nuances of ERISA law. But it is or you know, I guess helping with plans with

speaker-0 (25:04)
Right, compensation factor.

speaker-2 (25:06)
the board. Yeah. Yeah. It's is is really nuanced and interesting. I know enough to be dangerous and I know enough to ask questions, but it is such a highly specialized area of law. So it's really interesting.

So you actually you went into private practice, but you ultimately in the last four years took on your first in house role, which is kind of interesting, for having been in private practice that long. What made you want to make the switch?

speaker-1 (25:33)
Absolutely.

So yeah, I was 19 years in when I went in-house, which I understand to be kind of unusual, an unusual path. What made me want to make the switch? So I had always thought about going in-house. I started my career out in DC and as early as probably second year at a law firm was thinking, hmm, how do you get one of those jobs? But there really aren't that many companies that have.

Dedicated in-house ERISA counsel. And then prior to COVID, you would have usually been limited by who are the companies where I live that actually have that type of position. And so it's something that had always interested me. even probably about 10 years ago now, I had interviewed for a position locally, and that one wasn't the right fit, but I kind of

made a list in my head of what are other companies here that I would be interested in working for. And one of them was Texas Instruments, which is where I work now. That was also one of the only companies I knew of in Dallas that had a dedicated ERISA role. But during the pandemic, when I was on this journey of rediscovering myself, it was kind of a roundabout path how I ended up well at TI specifically, that that part ended up being easy.

But while I was, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grow up, because I had decided I didn't really want to be at my firm, I had started working with a coach. And originally the work with the coach was focused on I felt like I needed to take my practice at the firm I was at to the next level and kind of figure out what I wanted that practice to look like going forward. And in particular,

I don't fault the people that were in my firm for this at all, but they just had a really different vision and goals for where the firm was going and things like what types of technology we should be using. And I wanted to bring in all these innovative practices. And part of the reason for that was they were all approaching retirement. So I totally get it. What they were doing was working for them. Why would you want to adopt a bunch of new tech and things like that a few years before you're going to retire?

So I had started thinking about am I going to be able to do what I want here or am I going to need to go out on my own? And as I was asking all these hard questions, I realized I don't want to do any of this. I definitely don't want to go start my own firm because I really don't think this is what I want to be doing five, 10 years from now. And so right around that same time, I've had

Several serendipitous moments in my career where I was just in the right place at the right time. I was involved with the employee benefits section of the Dallas Bar Association, and we had a Zoom presentation.

with local in-house benefits counsel, where they came on and talked about what they do and what are their pain points dealing with outside counsel and things like that. And Christy Rorschach was TI's long-term benefits counsel before me for like over a decade. And she was on the panel. And at the end of the presentation, she said, I'm retiring. And so if anybody knows someone who might be interested in my position, please reach out.

And I had actually met Christy about 10 years before that, TI purchased a company that was one of the clients that I supported at one of my prior firms. And so I think I waited about three hours to reach out. So I didn't seem too overeager to let her know, hey, I would be interested. And that's how I ended up in-house at TI.

speaker-2 (29:20)
Well,

I love that you obviously you were thinking about what you wanted to do next, but pretty cool that you happen to be in the right place at the right moment and felt inspired and that she actually made the announcement. She didn't have to do that. So that was really serendipitous. And then taking the bull by the horns and just being like me. I think a lot of times people think, well, especially women, I don't have all the I don't check all the boxes, so I don't I'm not a good fit for that. I've

have the same issue. So I try to overcome that. And Shereen's actually really good about saying, Well, you'll figure it out. Like just go do it. So she's been a great partner in that respect, but not everybody has a Shereen to say, What are you talking about? You can do that shit. You know, you will figure it out. so that's awesome that you well, obviously you did have the expertise because you've been doing ERISA. It was that version of you from the interviews in law school that, you know,

was like, me, me, I love this. ERISA.

speaker-1 (30:21)
That is interesting about an employee benefits practice. So at law firms, some of the people who are ERISA lawyers do a lot of supporting MA transactions, but I never really liked that work. And so I always focused more on the day-to-day compliance work. And so my clients were often the HR people at the company. Sometimes you would have some.

Poor soul who doesn't really want to do ERISA work, who's like an HR attorney that's been tasked with oversight of the ERISA projects when they come up. But a lot of times I was working directly with HR. And so even though I was 19 years into my career, it made for a more natural transition to in-house because a lot of times, especially if I was working on big projects, I was more like secunded to the client.

than going through the lawyers, kind of doing the traditional, what sometimes corporate outside counsel is doing when they're interfacing with an in-house legal department. So it's been great. And I now understand the fact that I didn't like doing all the MA support is why I like being in-house. I want to really help with issues that impact real people, like health benefits. And so that's been a fun transition.

speaker-0 (31:46)
Well,

I love so many pieces of the story, right? So part of it was you were thinking, I've been outside for so long that this is gonna be, you know, a weird transition or you know, maybe I've I've missed missed

speaker-2 (31:59)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (32:00)
the boat. which I think we can say I mean that's one of the points of this podcast, right? There's lots of ways to get to where you wanna go. so don't let those ideas get in your in your way. And then the other piece is

You know, showing up for stuff that you enjoy and like nurturing those relationships, right? Like I can point to every single job that I received after law school, who the person was that helped me get that job, right? So I think that's really important and key for people to keep front and center, right? Like you never know when that relationship is gonna be a key relationship to what you wanna do.

and then to leverage them because people generally want to help.

speaker-1 (32:47)
Right. Absolutely.

speaker-2 (32:48)
Second.

speaker-1 (32:49)
And I use that with Christy and going to TI as an example because I had kept in touch with her over the years for the obvious reason I was a partner in a law firm. I was hoping maybe one day I would get TI's business. And so I guess I must have struck the right balance of staying in touch without being annoying, which

Actually, a side thing to say about that, I don't think that's something that women should be actively worried about, that they are being annoying if they're following up. Because if anything, back to the point earlier that sometimes we don't apply for the job, if we can't check every box, I think we also sometimes talk ourselves into, I don't want to bother that person. And from the perspective of an in-house person, if you haven't heard from somebody and there's somebody else who's in front of you and you're busy, you're going to remember the person who's in front of you. But

Anyway, I I'm so glad that I kept that connection up and also just because I liked her as a person and that for any networking that I do, it's not necessarily because I'm thinking that I'm gonna get something out of it, but making real connections with people you just enjoy leads to cool things like being on a podcast. So

speaker-2 (34:00)
Truth. No, Shereen did share there's also she's a little bit famous.

speaker-0 (34:05)
yeah. I mean I found it kind of surprising that you were not intrigued by the litigation since you did have a performance bug earlier in life, true?

speaker-1 (34:16)
True. so I think you were alluding to the fact that I was my husband called it a child actor. Because I asked for his opinion. You know, I really hate those icebreakers where it's like, say three interesting things about yourself that no one knows. And I'm like, okay, well, there's a lot of things about me no one knows. Are they interesting? I don't know. But so anyway, he said.

speaker-2 (34:45)
I'm just gonna help you like this this one is in case you're wondering.

speaker-1 (34:50)
Thank you. So he said, Well, you should tell him you were a child actor. And I'm like, well, that's stretching it a bit. You know, I wasn't on like a TV show. I did remember I was in a bread commercial. And unfortunately, I haven't been able to see that in years because the tape of it is on a beta tape.

speaker-2 (35:12)
Going through actually, god. So I do I am going through literally in my one of my rooms, I have some boxes of beta and VHS tapes, and I'm trying to find a player because I know there is one probably in my parents' house, not here. so I can go through and see if there's any content that I need to keep, not keep. A lot of it is just whatever recorded random episode of something, you know, before you could just hit record on

Your D V R. Is it even D V R now? No. It's not even called D V R I don't even write it anymore. We don't even have a

speaker-0 (35:46)
Like we probably have some MTV videos. I probably do.

speaker-2 (35:49)
On beta?

speaker-0 (35:50)
On beta. Have

speaker-1 (35:51)
I do have VHS. Yeah.

speaker-0 (35:53)
a player that plays

speaker-2 (35:55)
Both. Yeah. I my my parents used to have one too.

speaker-0 (35:58)
My father in retirement, so he also we had a camcorder.

speaker-2 (36:02)
We have one I have one it's sitting in the box of stuff. The little deck with the little tape. The mini tape.

speaker-0 (36:05)
Yeah, with the with the

mini tape. So like a mini VHS or beta tape for those of you who don't know, go look it up.

speaker-2 (36:15)
There's actually a VHS tape that you can put the mini tape into so that you can play the mini tape in the VHS player. Yes.

speaker-0 (36:22)
He converted them to this.

speaker-2 (36:23)
Look, I would taught Misty something.

speaker-1 (36:25)
Well and I need to know this because I really want to see this bread commercial and whether it's everything that I rem

speaker-2 (36:30)
Remember

that we got your back.

speaker-0 (36:32)
PlaySoft

635 that can do it for you. He converted them to disc and then

speaker-2 (36:37)
Your dad.

speaker-0 (36:38)
and then gifted it back to me. And I was like, this is so imp like redoing music videos with friends.

speaker-2 (36:45)
that's actually pretty golden. that may have to be its own episode of Counsel, just

speaker-0 (36:50)
You. I'm like, I'm glad you're in yourself in retirement. That was super embarrassing. but now I have it on C D so I can play it on our DVD.

speaker-2 (37:00)
You

better do it soon because you're not gonna be able to use C D

speaker-0 (37:04)
I know I'm

gonna have to I'm gonna have to convert it to an MP four. It's fine. Yeah. I will not task any of my children to do that.

speaker-2 (37:14)
I don't know, maybe we can play it at your funeral. Wouldn't that be great?

speaker-0 (37:18)
Pretty good.

It's a I snorted. That's how

speaker-2 (37:22)
Well, that's better than the pff that you've signed.

speaker-0 (37:26)
My my

speaker-2 (37:28)
Yeah, your stress relief sign. That's awesome. Okay, so bread commercial. We're gonna have

to that.

speaker-1 (37:32)
Yeah,

so maybe it would be more fair to say I was an aspiring child actor, but I grew up in Las Vegas. And so I did a couple of plays with a local company called the Southern Nevada Youth Company. So it was, I would compare it to like Dallas Children's Theater, you know, not Broadway, but not necessarily like a skit at school.

And we had this director who was a drama teacher at one of the local high schools. She was amazing. We had people that did choreography and the music who were people who had worked on Vegas shows. So just kind of a cool opportunity. And in one of the shows I starred as Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, which is, you know, one of my claims to fame, I guess. So

speaker-0 (38:23)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (38:24)
I did. There was actually a thing about that. So my parents had gone and purchased the shoes. And then the person who did all the costumes, like we had an actual sort of costume maker claimed at the end of the all the shows that the shoes were part of the costume. I didn't get to keep the costume. My dad just threw them in a bag and we took them anyway. But they said they were their shoes.

speaker-2 (38:51)
Ooh, I like your dad.

speaker-0 (38:52)
Yeah. Well it's kind of like what Reese Witherspoon is. She negotiated all her Jimmy Choos out of legally blonde. See you you

speaker-2 (39:00)
she did. Yeah. That was smart. I didn't know Reese.

speaker-0 (39:02)
Way to go. Yeah. Put it in the contract. So you're

speaker-1 (39:05)
These

are not as fancy as those. It's literally a pair of red shoes with glitter glued on them, which is part of why it was kind of funny they wanted to keep them. And also they would have needed a girl with exactly that same size feet. So my dad thought that was stupid and

speaker-2 (39:20)
And they would have to run the production again.

speaker-1 (39:23)
Right.

speaker-2 (39:24)
I mean.

speaker-0 (39:25)
But you also have paid for the rights.

speaker-2 (39:27)
Which but you're not gonna like it's not like next year you're gonna do Wizard of Oz. Right.

speaker-0 (39:31)
It'll

be like five or six years later when there's a whole new set of piece. So but but you know, once you saw a plaintiff's lawyer, you were like, not that kind of performance. No thanks.

speaker-1 (39:42)
Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this. I've also never really liked public speaking, which is kind of surprising that I could get up and sing and dance in a play, but I don't want to deliver a speech. I make myself do that just because it feels like something a a grown-up attorney should be able to do. like for example, last year I volunteered myself.

To be on a panel at Whipple, which is this big women's conference. I believe it stands for women influence and power in law, some combination of those words. And I get up on the panel and I'm on this panel with all these really impressive women. Most of them are higher up in their legal departments than I am. And I had this moment, I don't feel like I really suffer from imposter syndrome.

Lots of other things, yes, but not necessarily that. But I literally look out and I think, what am I doing up here? I do not want to line up here. I want to look at my watch to figure out how long it is before I get to get down off of this stage. And then everybody's talking, and I kind of forced myself.

Okay, I cannot sit up here like a bump on a log. That will be more embarrassing than anything I could possibly say. I've got to break into this conversation. a friend of mine, Stephanie, had flown out just to watch me be on this panel. Like, I can't have her do that. And she's like taking pictures and making video, and I'm just sitting there stone faced. Like, when do I get out of this thing? But that's all.

speaker-2 (41:24)
Also on the moderator. The moderator should be drawing that out of you too.

speaker-1 (41:28)
Well, so I did finally get in there and it turned out to be a much more successful experience than it looked like it was gonna be in those first few moments. But yeah, I don't know how it is that I can get up and of course I haven't gotten up and sung and danced in front of people for decades, but that I I could do that. But no, the idea of like with a courtroom, one thing there is just

the spontaneity and like having to say the right thing at the right time and pivot to the right question. that just makes me so anxious. So

speaker-0 (42:02)
was I was not a good jury trial lawyer. No, at all. and I'm actually going through speaker training too, right now. So to learn how to not have a podium, a table, a microphone, it's very uncomfortable. I find it very uncomfortable. Nicola's like, I don't need any training for that. I could just do it every day.

speaker-2 (42:23)
No, I got so I moderated a panel last week and it had three very forward you know, outward facing individuals or

speaker-0 (42:31)
Public relations.

speaker-2 (42:31)
public

relations, but for three very visible brands. And so I did feel a lot of pressure. And there was a moment like, I don't know, the day before we had did all the prep. I was really excited. They were fantastic. but the day before I had a moment and I was like, why the f did I why did I say I would do this panel? Like why did I moderate I put it together and and then we were looking to have someone moderate it. And I just kept thinking, I have these two athletes. I this is it was about sports.

And so I was, you know, I convinced myself that I actually would really enjoy it. And I did, but there was, you know, about an hour of the day where I just kept thinking, why did I say yes to this? And I played out like three different scenarios of how it's not me moderating. And obviously that's so stupid because that was not gonna happen. but I did fantasize about it. And then I just thought, no, I'm gonna go in and I'm going to enjoy this and

I had the right outfit as you know now. and it was it was great. But I I think that's normal to have that moment of hesitation and to think, what am I doing here? I I joined a a women's group several years ago and a friend of mine sponsored me for it and I was very excited and I had a feel for what I was stepping into, but not I didn't have a full appreciation. And they had their annual like meeting and it was a

All day event and was super excited, but the woman that sponsored me couldn't be there. So I was prepared for that. So I step into this room. You know, there's let's say there's 10 tables or 12 tables of 10 women each, and they had this exercise. You were saying you don't like the three questions, you know, three interesting things. Well, this was clever. So you started with you gotten pairs, found three things you had in common, then you broke into fours, you joined another pair.

three things you had in common and then the whole table. And then each table went around to say what the table had in common, three things. And the table before ours said, we're all former CEOs. We've all been on former city boards of some sort, and they're all grandmas. And I was just like, I'm texting my friend, what have you I why am I here?

speaker-0 (44:49)
get here.

speaker-2 (44:50)
Why? How did I yes, I think I had just turned I was like thirty-nine or forty and I'm laughing because I was none of those things.

But it's been an incredible group and they were very inviting. But it's that sense of, you know, wondering it it's hard sometimes to come through get cut through the noise in your head. Right. Obviously you're fabulous.

You were

speaker-1 (45:15)
Well thank you. I appreciate

speaker-2 (45:17)
in a bread commercial, hello.

speaker-1 (45:18)
it. I wa if I had only remembered in that moment, I was in a bread commercial. I can do this.

speaker-2 (45:25)
And I wore red sparkly shoes and looked amazing.

speaker-0 (45:28)
Yeah. Yeah, they they were so fantastic they wanted to keep The

speaker-2 (45:31)
Yeah, have you worn?

speaker-0 (45:33)
costumer.

speaker-2 (45:35)
I know. That's okay.

speaker-0 (45:37)
I have not. So

speaker-2 (45:39)
I think I have, but I can't tell you why. N or maybe I just don't want to.

speaker-0 (45:43)
You

don't want to. It's okay. I think I have an idea why. But so employment or around employment, surely. I

speaker-2 (45:53)
There's some great juicy s

speaker-0 (45:54)
know. I'm wondering if you have anything that's not privileged though. Any stupid shit. It it doesn't have to be about work, but I mean, we've done some interesting things in our careers where it was like, Wow, people decided to do that today.

speaker-2 (46:06)
Stuff is the juiciest though.

speaker-0 (46:08)
I know she's she's on the more like I would say sophisticated side of it, but you are

Hear about it.

speaker-2 (46:14)
There was a point where Shereen worked for me and she I made her do some employment investigations. and I realized quickly this was not her forte because she kept trying to apply logic to the situation. I'm like, why do you keep trying to understand why the person did something? Like it they did it. They did it. There's no

speaker-0 (46:31)
Move on.

speaker-2 (46:32)
whatever their logic is, it's not gonna look logical to you or sound logical to you.

speaker-1 (46:36)
See you.

Right. No, I do have some pretty interesting things that I've encountered in my role as an ERISA lawyer. Unfortunately, I can't talk about any of those, but for example, having to look at situations where you can't get benefits if you cause someone to die and you can't profit through

speaker-0 (46:59)
Right up.

speaker-1 (47:01)
that situation. so yes.

Really fascinating things. but for today, the story I was going to share with you was about a partner that I supported in one of my early career roles who would call me into his office to purportedly to have a meeting, and then I would get there and he would be doing all these other things, for example.

Calling someone about getting a fridge at his rental house repaired. Or one time he just called up a former coworker and they had a whole chat about, you know, how's Dan from the third floor? And if I would attempt to get up and leave during these meetings thinking that I didn't really need to be there, he'd be like, no, no, you have to stay.

So it got to the point where I would carry like a stack of cases. You know, this was back when everybody printed everything out to look through while he had all these great conversations with his former coworkers. But the interesting part for why I'm bringing this up on a podcast was at this office, you could bring your dog to work, or he could bring his dog to work. I don't remember if everyone could bring their dog to work. And so occasionally the dog would be present during these.

Some of these meetings were two hours long and maybe a 15-minute discussion of some ERISA topic. So sometimes he would engage with the dog, not me. And so one time I remember in particular, he had this box of dog biscuits, which must have been called Mr. Barkie.

Because he was asking the dog, you know how a lot of people when they speak to animals, they use a special voice. So

speaker-2 (48:55)
I may be guilty. My dogs each have their own voice. But yes, I know exactly

speaker-1 (49:00)
No, that's totally fine. And I'm not shading the fact that his dog was there or that he was talking to the dog in the special voice, but only for purposes of the podcast, I will try to imitate these like ooh.

speaker-0 (49:13)
Mr. Barkie

speaker-1 (49:16)
And I'm sitting there like

speaker-2 (49:17)
You're like me, mex.

speaker-1 (49:20)
I ate right before I came. so that that was one of the more interesting stories.

speaker-2 (49:26)
Like

I'll take a a chai latte with lavender if you're offering

speaker-1 (49:30)
Things.

speaker-2 (49:33)
We'll pass on the Mr. Barkey.

speaker-1 (49:35)
Mr. Mark, it didn't look good. It looked like I might break a tooth. So I mean if I'd been kind of hungry after two hours of sitting there, I probably was gonna pass.

speaker-2 (49:44)
So I'm gonna I'm gonna apply I'm gonna pull a shereen and try to apply some logic. So I'm thinking it either he was senile or he was lonely or I

speaker-0 (49:58)
feel like it's a power play.

speaker-2 (50:00)
was gonna say or he was trying to mess with your billing.

speaker-1 (50:04)
I I think it was the power play. I that was very much it.

speaker-2 (50:09)
Yeah, and just the were there other associates that he was doing it with? I'm assuming you were associate at the time.

speaker-1 (50:14)
I was,

yes. not that I know of, because a lot of times you're the only ERISA associate.

speaker-2 (50:26)
you should have started invoicing him every time you would spend time in there, you should have sent him an invoice billing your hours for the time that you were listening to him talk about the barkee. Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (50:38)
Yeah.

Fifteen minutes, Mr. Barkey receiving treats.

speaker-2 (50:43)
Well, what's ridiculous is at the time that it's happening to you, you're like, is this really happening? Like right. And you start gaslighting yourself, wondering, like, maybe this is normal to other people. Maybe I don't appreciate that this is actually normal. Is this what happens in other law firms? Is this the do you it's only happened three times? Maybe that's okay. And it's just a coincidence. Like you start assigning all these rationales that no, it's just dumb stupid, and he was an asshole.

speaker-1 (51:11)
Right.

speaker-2 (51:12)
Pulling his power play on you. I was gonna say a different P word, but anyways.

speaker-0 (51:17)
I don't know that I wanted to see that. I kinda would have like, I would like to unsee you talking to your dog about Mr.

speaker-1 (51:22)
You're gone. Yeah.

If I had not already gotten a pretty good sense of his personality, I maybe would have wondered, is this a test? And I'm supposed to speak up and say, hey, why are you having me sit here and watch you interact with your dog? But I do think Shereen's correct. It was really a power play. This was also the sort of person who would come up with some emergency on the Friday before Labor Day that was due, like on Monday, where you had to.

I I remember there was one time there was a woman who didn't use a computer. So this was same firm, different person. And so I remember having to bring a physically printed copy or maybe come up to the office to physically print a memo to leave for her on a holiday because she couldn't read it on the computer.

speaker-0 (52:15)
Fair.

We did graduate from law school in this century.

speaker-1 (52:20)
Right, I'm an O2 law grad. So this was pretty unusual to have someone who did not use a computer. Now, do people know how to use computers? There definitely was a subset of partners in particular that that was questionable. But the unable to open a document and print it was pretty rare for my genre.

speaker-2 (52:46)
There are no words. Hopefully

speaker-0 (52:48)
Yeah. That's pretty.

speaker-2 (52:50)
you didn't stay there very long.

speaker-1 (52:52)
Well I mean even if even if

speaker-0 (52:55)
Even if this person didn't want to partake in using the computer and printing it herself, she's a partner. You would think she would have had an assistant who would do that.

speaker-1 (53:08)
Well, but they weren't working on the holiday weekend. So why wouldn't I do it?

speaker-0 (53:14)
Right. Okay. So inter like I find the power plays in like some of the nonsense in our profession. I just don't I mean, I know I'm not supposed to apply it logic, but it's like it's such a waste of time and energy.

speaker-2 (53:30)
There really is. I think that's the biggest issue. I agree.

speaker-0 (53:35)
Well, that's a pretty good one. I have we have not heard Mr. Barkey.

speaker-2 (53:39)
Before. No, that's special. And a new one.

speaker-0 (53:43)
I don't even know if I've ever heard of those treats.

speaker-1 (53:45)
You're

probably gonna go Google it.

speaker-0 (53:47)
The commercial.

speaker-2 (53:50)
yeah, what bre actually speaking of commercials, what bread was it? Do you remember?

speaker-1 (53:54)
I think it's called wholesome bread. But again, I haven't seen the commercial since I was five or so don't hold me to that. But

speaker-2 (54:05)
That's so cute. I'm I feel like we could find it on YouTube.

speaker-0 (54:11)
Maybe well, no, not if it's on beta. It would have had to been converted. And who knows if the bread company still exists?

speaker-2 (54:20)
That's true. Okay.

speaker-0 (54:23)
Or the agency that ran the ad.

speaker-2 (54:26)
That's true too. Any other commercials or was that the only one?

speaker-1 (54:30)
What was it? I did some modeling at Saks Fifth Avenue. Ski skiware. So I have pictures of that.

speaker-2 (54:41)
Fun. I did freeze modeling in the window. Ooh.

speaker-0 (54:46)
Wow, how many hours?

speaker-2 (54:49)
A long, long time, a lot of hours. We would get to move like every 15 minutes into a new position. and we would change outfits like every two hours or something. You know, to let the mall people do their walking and then you'd have fresh victims to lure in. And then they would stare at you to wait for you to move.

speaker-0 (55:11)
I don't even remember the last time I saw live models in the window.

speaker-2 (55:14)
It was not a common thing. It was like this one store at the it was at the galleria.

speaker-0 (55:19)
Yeah. Was it Neiman's?

speaker-2 (55:21)
gosh, no. It was like I don't even remember the name of the store.

speaker-0 (55:26)
That's so fascinating. I do remember like that, but it's been decades.

speaker-2 (55:31)
I should add that to my list of three. You should.

speaker-1 (55:34)
Yes, absolutely. Freeze window modeling.

speaker-2 (55:38)
Freeze window modeling.

speaker-0 (55:40)
Well, Misty, we're getting, you know, towards the end, but I do want to know what's on the horizon since I feel like you've been on this journey and it's taking you. Where do you feel like it's taking you or where do you want it to take you? What is your next fun adventure or anything else that you want to share with us on the on a high note?

speaker-2 (55:59)
Yeah,

speaker-1 (56:01)
I'm still kind of working on that. I'm still on the journey. So I mentioned I've picked up some additional roles at work and I'm excited to work at a company that really looks at people's raw skill sets and doesn't look at someone who's been doing the same thing for over 20 years and think, okay, that's the only thing that she's capable of doing. So right now I'm just kind of rotating into some different things and sort of

Figuring out what that next thing is. In addition to law practice, I'm really interested in how law departments run and things like how law departments are going to use AI in the future or build on the way that they're already using AI, probably in most cases. So that's something I'd I'd like to explore is maybe one of my rotations or new projects. But the world is just totally open to me right now. So I'm very excited about that.

speaker-0 (56:54)
Maybe some more stages, maybe without a table. Podium.

speaker-2 (57:01)
I know.

speaker-1 (57:02)
Yeah, maybe more public speaking, especially I'm gonna keep focusing on that bread commercial and that's what's gonna get me through it.

speaker-2 (57:07)
Yes. And the and the Ruby show.

speaker-1 (57:09)
And the Ruby slippers. Maybe I should wear, well, I can't wear those Ruby slippers. They're too small that maybe I'll get a different.

speaker-2 (57:17)
Just send Shereen to Nordstrom's and she'll find you. Just give her your size and she will she will find them for you, I have no doubt.

speaker-1 (57:26)
I'll I'll meet you in the cafe outside.

speaker-2 (57:31)
That sounds great.

speaker-0 (57:32)
Well, this has been wonderful. We've really enjoyed having you with us today.

speaker-1 (57:36)
This was so fun. Thank you so much for having me.