The Style Secret Behind Strong Brand Visibility with Ellie Steinbrink

Ever stood in your closet feeling like you have nothing to wear to your next networking event or speaking gig?

You're making big moves in your business, but your wardrobe isn't reflecting how you need to show up now. 

That's why I'm chatting with Ellie Steinbrink—personal branding expert and stylist for female entrepreneurs—who blends two decades of marketing experience with a deep understanding of psychology and personal style.

We’re talking about what happens when your style no longer reflects the version of you you’re becoming. Especially for women in business stepping onto stages, leading retreats, or simply showing up more visibly in their brand.

You’ll walk away with a deeper understanding of how to embody your brand—before you even say a word.

In this episode:

• What most women do wrong when preparing for a big visibility moment
• The one question to ask before buying another outfit or panic shopping
• How your closet might be sabotaging your confidence
• Why authenticity boosts retention, trust, and even sales
• Scientific research on how what you wear literally rewires your brain
• How to dress like your brand… even when you’re off stage

🔗 Mentioned in the episode:
– Freebie: Style Mindset Reset
– The Visibility Shift Podcast by Ellie Steinbrink

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Transcript

Today we are having a conversation with Ellie Steinbrink, who is a personal branding expert and stylist for female entrepreneurs.

And what I love about Ellie is that she actually draws on psychology and branding as she helps women define and embody a magnetic personal style that encourages them to take bold action.

She blends a two-decade-long career in marketing for Fortune 500 giants and small businesses with her passion for curating wardrobes that break style rules and reject trends, which I'm excited to dig in more.

And I know that you hear a lot and something that I've heard as well from colleagues in the industry is like things like I'm making big moves in my business, but my wardrobe doesn't necessarily reflect how I need to show up now, now that they're getting, you know, opportunities to speak on stage, thinking of hosting their own retreat or conference or event.

Or maybe their closet is full of clothes, but none of them necessarily feel aligned to this person, a business owner that they are becoming.

So how do you respond or encourage people who are feeling that way?

There's a lot to unpack there, Megan. That's a that's a great question. And it's a question and a thing that the women I'm working with really often will first come to me with because it's really common for a woman.

I find it's the thing that will happen, right, is there's some big event that falls on your calendar or maybe it's a really large.

Stage that you've been booked for or a dream client. There's something that lands on your calendar and it ends up sending you in a tailspin because you stand in your closet and you're looking at your options and maybe you've kind of known all along that there was something out of sync between where you were going personally and professionally and what your closet is reflecting.

Maybe you've known that for a while, but it doesn't become painful and highly aware until that moment when something lands on your calendar.

And I'm sure those listening can relate to this because I've had this very moment and so I know I've experienced it and if I have, others have as well.

And it's in that moment when you're standing there thinking, wow, like even if these clothes are fine, quote unquote fine, like they would do the job.

They don't feel like they're big enough to encompass what I've now created as. For myself, the voice I've created, the message I've established, the brand I've created for myself, and this dissonance really can feel very scary.

And what I find most women do when they find themselves in this spot is they feel like they need to do something about it.

And so I'm getting to your question about what I think you should do, but I want to explain, like, paint a story about what typically can happen and how it can kind of get you off on the right track, off on the wrong track, I'm sorry.

So you're standing in that moment having a panic about, I've got this thing coming up, it's nothing in here is going to work, it'll be just fine, but I know we need something bigger.

So we go on a panic shop. And what this looks like is either in real life going out to stores and scrambling to try to find something, or it's going to every site that you can think of and just ordering a bunch of things.

And scrambling and throwing things at the wall, just hoping that one of these things is going to stick, you're in a state of mind where you're frantic, right?

And I've been. I've been there where things are coming in and you're trying them on. Some of them don't work.

Some of them do. Some of them you're like, maybe, I don't know, but we're in a sort of a panic state.

And so it's hard for us to really slow down and say, what is it that I'm trying to achieve here?

Or maybe we get a bunch of okay things that we end up just needing to settle for because now we're out of time.

We don't have any more time or energy or money left to go spend and try to find the perfect thing.

So we end up kind of back in the same spot we started, but with a lot of wasted energy, time, and honestly, our sanity.

And that kind of energy of, I know it feels, I get it, because I've been in this exact spot for, and I've also, I'm going to raise my hand and say, I've been that person who has scrambled and tried to find the perfect thing.

And yep, all of us raise your hand because we've been there, myself included. It is an awful feeling. It leaves you end up really not any better place than what you started.

It I'm just kidding. The question we're missing here is before we go out into the stores or before we go start shopping and getting caught up in all the marketing tactics that all those retailers want us to be caught up in, we're missing a question.

And that question is, who is this woman I'm becoming? Who is this brand I've created? And what would be a reflection of this brand?

And when it's sort of like hurrying up and trying to get some kind of marketing tactic out the door without stopping and saying, what's the bigger picture here?

You know, what's the bigger plan or the goal I'm trying to achieve? And if you've been in that spot, even from a marketing standpoint in your business, you know that sort of rushing ahead and just throwing things against the wall.

Yeah, you know, you might get lucky. Something might stick. But most of the time I've found I end up with a whole lot of nothing.

And it's the same with your style. So I'm encouraging women when I start working with women before we ever start step foot into a store.

Now I work virtually. So before. Before we ever step foot in a virtual store, we're working on, you know, getting clear around who is this woman?

You know, what does your brand sound like? What is the essence of your brand? And how can our style amplify that rather than dilute it?

And what I find most women, when they're even, you know, stopping to get clear, the clarity point is really helpful.

But then even getting really clear on, am I willing to step into that version that would amplify my brand?

Or am I feeling a little scared to like fully go for it? So there's a couple of things there I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more.

But I want to stop here just because I think we feel like shopping is productive. We feel like that's going to get us somewhere.

And time and time again, it just doesn't. So I say, before you go shopping, get clear and start asking, who is it that I'm becoming?

What would amplify my brand? What would be a great representation of my brand? And I say that. Beyond just a color, because I think we'll talk about mistakes, I'm sure, but think beyond color and the essence of your brand.

What would that look like? And that's often where, you know, it's fun for me to step in and help clients visualize what that would look like, but it's a really important first question to start with.

@19:19 - Megan Kachigan (Megan Kachigan)

Yeah, that is a great starting point, and I'm just listening, and like, one, yeah, definitely also raising my hand, like, I've done the panic shop because this is not my area of expertise or joy, really, but I know it needs.

Yeah, it's important, and it needs to be done, but also just, like, this is stuff I talk about in copywriting, in messaging, too, like, this is the starting point of everything, and just love to see how, like, it extends, like, that firm foundation extends so far beyond even just, like, the work that I do as well.

And the questions that you're asking, like, what reflects the brand I'm becoming, how can our style actually amplify that rather than dilute it?

And... And I think you can probably speak more to this, but like, I think subconsciously it does something to us and probably how people are perceiving us too when we walk into the room.

Yeah.

And, you know, it feels like, okay, this is a really simple question too. It is simple, but it's also a difficult answer, right?

But in the process of visioning work, what I think is interesting is when I first started working with women, you know, five years ago, my process looked a little different because I thought I was missing a step and I didn't know it in this process of thinking who you're becoming and then actually stepping into that woman.

So when I first started, I would do a little, you know, I would have a short discussion with my clients about where are we going?

What's the vision of who you're becoming? What does that look like? How can our style reflect the brand that you're creating?

And we would have a chat about it. And then it wasn't a very long time though. And we would, I would then go and start finding things that

Represented that. And what I discovered pretty quickly is that when they started to put these clothes on then that defined their vision, they were, you know, they had gotten clear, but the thing was missing is that they energetically weren't ready to step into that next version because oftentimes it's a little bit of a scary risk.

It's a little bit of a uncomfortable move because it's not like what we've been doing in the past. And so I could almost see it on their faces.

They'd put this outfit on and part of them was beyond excited because it was like, wow, this is, this is the vision.

This is exactly how I see my brand. But then the other part of them equally was scared because they're thinking, wow, I need to walk into a meeting like this, or I need to walk on stage like this.

And it's going to be feel very vulnerable because now, yes, it's one thing to have your brand and your message and your content dialed in.

But now this is a very visible form, how you're. Showing up is going to be different. And so I pretty quickly realized there was a step missing, and that step was some mindset work.

And a lot of the reasons why we end up holding ourselves back from stepping into that next version of ourselves is not that we've decided we're ready, but that there are beliefs and rules that are holding us back.

So all of us have rules that we've collected along the way, all the way back to probably when we were little girls.

I know I can think of many, you know, comments we got on the playground about our style or our bodies.

As we got older, maybe it was things that were acceptable or not acceptable within our family culture, things that are acceptable within our whatever culture we live in.

And then as we get into workplaces, there's tons of rules. I mean, many of the women that come from corporate and are now running their own business, they're still believing that wearing neutrals in black is the only way to be credible and be taken serious.

There are rules everywhere. And so when we think about. Stepping out of those rules that maybe had a time and a place but definitely don't need to keep ruling our decisions now, it can stop us from then stepping into and feeling like we're safe to go and show up the way we want to show up.

And it's these rules and these beliefs that really when people talk to me about standing in their closet and feeling overwhelmed and decision fatigue is because we're standing there thinking, okay, what's the dress code and what is everybody else going to be wearing?

Excuse me. if I choose this, will I stand out too much? Or, you know, someone I spent good money on that suit.

And so I probably should wear that even though if I don't really like it. There's all this other noise going on that clutters our decision making.

And instead of looking from the inside out, now we're relying on the external to impact what is happening with our style.

So we're relying on compliments people are giving us. relying on What other people are wearing, where we're being relied on, what a woman in her 40s should look like, what a mom should look like and should be wearing, what a professional in the marketing field should be looking like.

And all of these expectations cloud our decisions, which makes it really difficult to move forward and make a change into something that you want for yourself because it feels real.

But when we follow these rules, we end up self-sabotaging because we feel like it's the safe way to go, but it isn't aligned.

And that was the piece really that I ended up realizing that women needed to work on was letting them break free from these rules and expectations that really don't need to be any place anymore.

Now, am I saying go and totally break a dress code and show up in a way that's inappropriate for whatever the dress code is?

No, I'm not saying that. But I'm saying realize where things are hanging you up and holding you back from stepping into that version of yourself that would represent your brand.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. So good. I mean, I'm just nodding along the whole time of like, I know if I've felt all these things, I know this is a very common experience for women in business and women in general.

And what you're saying, like, it's not just anecdotal, like there's research behind this, right? Like what we wear influences us more than we think it does.

So what is the research behind that and how does it impact us?

Yeah, there's actually two pieces of research I want to talk about. And one is regarding authenticity. Authenticity is something I talk a lot about when I talk about style, because I really do feel like in terms of wanting to create a magnetic brand, to me, the way to do that is from the inside out.

So instead of putting on, let's say, like a figata, you'll make it sort of costume, like, I know this is what women in my industry look like and wear, so I'm just going to put that on and hope that that's, you know, what gives me what I need.

But I know that when I see women on stage or women at a meeting, and you can tell that their style is driven from the inside out from a very authentic place, there's just a subtle nuance there.

There's an energy difference that you can sense. It's hard to put words to it. And I had been for years, you know, wanting to put numbers to this.

If you show up more authentically in your business, it will change things for you. I mean, how many times have we heard that?

So I was at a conference earlier this year, and there was a woman named Eleanor Beaton. She's a business coach for women, female founders.

And she actually had done some of her own research around when you show up authentically in your business, it not only increases the trust of those following you and your clients, it decreases time to purchase.

When you think about if you're selling a high ticket item, especially right now in the economy, decreasing time to purchase is huge.

And then also increases. Your retention rates of the clients you do have. I was like, hallelujah, you know, this is the research we've been hoping and praying for because it really does make a difference when that energetic shift between style or otherwise showing up externally being the external ways of being influencing you versus it coming from the inside out.

So that's one piece. But I think there's another piece of research that you might be referring to, Megan, and that's how what we wear changes our daily results.

And honestly, I've known this for a really long time since I was a little girl. mean, think back when you were playing dress up or maybe you put on your favorite outfit and that feeling you had when you put it on, it was like you were light as air and you could do anything and you were really social, even if you weren't naturally social.

I knew that from a very, for a very long time, even into my professional years that I knew when I was dressed in a way that felt very true to me, I showed up energetically differently.

time, time, time, time, long long I And I didn't know until I started this work and I got really curious about it, but there's actually research behind this.

And one of the pieces of research is called Enclothed Cognition. So in 2012, Adam and Galinsky did a study and they separated the participants into two groups.

One was wearing, one set of participants was wearing lab coats and the other set of participants were just wearing street clothes.

And they had these participants do a number of different tasks. Tasks that required some attention, you know, and were a little bit difficult, so they needed to focus.

And they found that those who were in the lab coats, they showed up differently. They had increased attention. They performed better.

They had better cognitive performance and better focus. And so they concluded as a result of that study that, yes, in fact, when you wear something, that in this case, it was a doctor's coat.

go. You know, they did show up differently and perform differently as opposed to just wearing street clothes. So that's one other piece of research I think is really fascinating.

There's yet another set of research, that's around just brain science that supports this idea that what we wear changes our results for the day.

And this research shows, well, it's not research, it's just brain science, that when we have a feeling, our brain activates and releases chemicals throughout our body.

So that can either be when we have a good feeling, our brain activates and releases good chemicals throughout our body.

Or if we're having kind of a yucky, gross feeling, our brain activates and sends negative, bad chemicals throughout our body.

And this, in turn, changes the chemical makeup of our system. And so let's put this in the context of a realized setting.

So you walk into your closet on any given morning and you're getting dressed for the day. Okay. If in and you see all the things you really love to wear are not clean, or maybe you've got toddlers wrapped around your ankles and you've got minutes to make a decision, maybe what you're looking at, you thought, you know, you put it on, you think this is going to be great, and then you can't zip up the zipper and you didn't know, and now it's like, great, what am I going to do?

Maybe you're just in the scenario that we talked about earlier in this, our conversation about, you know, something's not quite right, but you just kind of got to go with what's in front of you.

None of these are great experiences, and I've honestly had every single one of them, and when you think about then choosing something out of what's in front of you and walk out into the rest of your day, how did your day go?

Think about the kind of actions you are then taking as a result. I know for me, you know, I might be a little snippy with my husband and my kids, I hate to say it, but I have done that before.

When it comes from a work perspective, I might take on the more menial... tasks that are easy to check off on my list instead of going for the big task or ask that I need to make.

Maybe I'm not turning my Zoom camera on. Maybe I cancel a lunch appointment. You know, I'm like, I don't really want to be seen today.

There's also, or maybe women have told me even they fall off their health routine. You know, it's like, well, everything's going to trash.

I might as well just like let it all slide now. And then the results, think about the results you get on a day like that when you've taken all these actions to kind of hide and play it safe and not go and do what you said you were going to do, all based on what you chose to put on in the morning.

And I think it's funny because really when you think about the number of decisions we make in a day, it's 35,000, I believe, is what they say.

You really wouldn't believe that what you wear is one of the most important decisions that you'll make, right? You think your family, the work decisions you make, your health decisions.

And I agree, those seem much more important, but it wasn't until I saw this research that it made me understand that one decision we're making in a closet can really have this closet effect is what I call it, you know, this waterfall effect on your day.

And it really does determine, did you get done what you wanted to get done? Did you show up in the way that you wanted to show up?

It really can make a difference. Now, if you flip it and talk about a day in your closet when you did have something you were really excited to wear, you know, those are the days where you're like, I'm going to snap a selfie.

I want to go, hey, can I go out to lunch with someone? Can I, you know, I'm going to have the courage to go and do the ask that I need, reach out to that podcast host and see if I can get on their podcast, see if I can get on that stage for that speaking engagement that I want to be a part of.

So all of these pieces of research really think support the idea that style really matters and it's so much more than just fashion and.

Trends and looking good, it changes you from the inside out.

@33:06 - Megan Kachigan (Megan Kachigan)

Yeah, I love that. That's so good. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation with you is like, this is not just a superficial conversation.

This like seemingly small thing has such a ripple effect throughout the rest of our day, doing what we say that we're going to do.

And I'm a very data-driven person. So I love what you shared about those few different research-backed brain science of like, and I think like I know me, at least I was like, oh, yep.

Like when I'm just, you know, in my athleisure, we just got to get to school, drop off on time.

Like even my posture changes, like my physical posture of like, I'm just trying to get through the day versus shoulder back, walk confident when I'm actually dressed and like not even dressed up, but just like dressed, you know, for the day.

Um, I'm also kind of sad because that means I know a lot of people here are like, well, I work remotely.

I can just wear athleisure. I can wear pajama bottoms. I can. And like, sure. But what I'm hearing you say.

Um, I actually went through that. I went, when I started my business was also right at the time we were going through the pandemic.

It was in 2020. And I had, at the beginning of COVID, I had a job. so I got sent home, you know, indefinitely.

And I was working from home and doing, think, what everybody else was doing, which was not putting a lot of effort into a morning routine in terms of getting dressed or, you know, doing my hair.

And all the things. And I noticed that it became more and more challenging to do my work. It became more and more challenging to have the energy to go do what I wanted to do.

And I get that there was a lot of reasons at that time to feel uncertain. I feel maybe a little down and unmotivated, but it clicked with me one day that why am I acting as if I'm not getting up and getting ready as if I would go into the office on an everyday basis?

And so I shifted and I said, okay, I'm going to get up and I'm going to it ready. I'm going to get dressed, even though it seems silly to do so when I'm just walking downstairs, you know, to sit at my desk and maybe somebody's going to see me and maybe won't.

But I will tell you that that shift made such a difference to me and still to this day. And, you know, very shortly after that, I ended up starting my business and working from home became my life.

And that shift of it doesn't matter. I'm not dressing because I know I have something on my calendar. I know that there's going to be a Zoom conversation where the camera needs to be on or I know there's going to be a recording.

I get dressed up, dressed up, quote unquote. You know, I dress in a way that makes me feel most myself every day because I know that that is.

It's an intentional thing I can do to shift my energy in the right direction to get me where I want to go and to not feel regretful about the things that I didn't do.

And for me, and, you know, every woman is going to be different. What does that mean for you versus me versus the next woman?

For me, you know, wearing athleisure maybe here and there, you know, is okay. But for me, I know that doesn't do it for me.

But there's another woman standing right next to me that's going to say, you know, that's when I feel my best.

And that's how I rock it. And that's who I am. And that's okay. So there's, I'm not sitting here and saying you need to be in heels and dresses and blazers every single day.

But it is about honoring who you are and not letting the story that we work from home, so we all must just be in casual clothes, be the story that you have to follow if that doesn't work for you.

So you have to kind of get curious about, well, what makes me feel my best and then lean into it.

Mm-hmm.

@37:00 - Megan Kachigan (Megan Kachigan)

Yeah. I love that. And that, yeah, you're right. It's so unique for each woman. And like, I'm not dressing for them.

I'm dressing for me. Like, regardless of what is on my calendar, I'm dressing for me to show up my best.

And what does that look like for me? And I love the example you gave at the beginning of like, even as children.

And like, this is always so telling about, you know, our childhood. Like, if we're dressing up, putting on tutus or Barbies or whatever.

I know for me, was like, I was always wearing my soccer jersey and out in the backyard, like pretending I was Mia Hamm or, you know, the Olympic soccer player.

But I wouldn't have pretended that if I didn't have those, like that soccer uniform. And it made me practice more.

It made me go out there. made me be better. And that's such like a silly little example. But, you know, that you can extrapolate to today is like, if I want to be the part, if I want to.

To be this type of person dressing that way is the first step, and I feel like it's often the last thing to shift, but it's actually the first step of you really stepping out there and doing the thing to show up your best, and like you said, what makes me feel most myself every day.

I think it's about embodiment for me, because I even, what I'll hear commonly from women, I work with a lot of speakers and everything else too, but a lot of women who are speakers, and what they'll come to me for is I need stage outfits, right?

I need to align my brand with my style when I'm on stage, but then I'll hear them tell me stories about after the talk, they're at the airport traveling home or traveling to their next talk, and inevitably they run into someone that saw them speak, you know, just moments.

And they're like, I don't feel myself, I don't feel myself, I'm just kind of in my scrubby clothes, and I do think there's this.

It's that it's on or off. So if we have somewhere to go, we have some place to be we know is high visibility, then we really put a lot of time and effort into being on in terms of our brand and those big visibility moments.

But this isn't just about flipping a switch on and off all the time. It's like, how can then when we're on the weekends or when we're traveling back after a speaking engagement, how can we still dress in a way that is appropriate for wanting to travel in the airport, but also makes us still feel like us, you know, what is that for you?

And it's again, it's different for every woman. So I can't say like, here's the formula for you. But that is something to remember.

And I think this also applies to just thinking about like a stage moment versus a real moment or a stories moment.

So when you're getting on reals, yeah, you don't need to always be all done up and like in your stage worthy outfit.

But what is something, what is a way that emulates your brand still makes you still feel like you? So as opposed to just feeling the pressure to show up and look a certain way, because, because why?

There's all sorts of reasons, I guess. But that's just something to noodle on, you know, is why do we always have to have big off and on moments?

Why can't there? I mean, think about the big brands we love. There is really no big on and off moments.

Always there's a consistency there. So what we want to achieve as a personal brand is also consistency. Yeah, yeah.

Yes, That relieves so much of the unnecessary pressure that we put on ourselves. 

And we will end with, what is a small joy outside of business that is fueling you right now?

One of the things I've really been loving is I've been taking, I'm really into health and fitness, so every day I have a workout, but after dinner I've been taking these slow, more chill walks.

And originally I really loved doing it by myself, you know, and I found like a lot of peace and time for thinking just to kind of easily stroll.

And not make it feel like a workout. And they were really wonderful. you know, it's still warm here where I live and so it makes it even more enjoyable.

But there was a couple of times where my 11-year-old son wanted to join me. Either he would get on his bike and kind of be ahead of me or sometimes he would just walk with me.

And having him along with me has been really unexpected joy is, you know, thinking that I wanted this to be an alone moment, but having him with me made it even better.

So, let me know. let Let Allowing in the unexpected, I guess, is my little bit of joy. You never know what additional joy it will bring you.

That is so sweet and so special and just so beautiful. Like when we slow down and take a moment and like how beautiful it can be that he wants to join you and enjoy that with you.

Yeah.

Awesome.

And so I know our audience is going to want to connect with you more and you have a couple of things you wanted to share.

You have your own podcast as well. Go ahead and tell us about that.

Yeah, I just started my own podcast. So what you heard here you love. Obviously, I talk less about what to wear in terms of the top five things for fall and more about the mindset shifts that need to happen in order to show up in a magnetic way.

Anyway, that's what I'm, you know, what you'll find more of on my podcast, which is called The Visibility Shift.

I also have a freebie for those listening and it's something we. We talked about a little bit here in our conversation, which is those rules that we either consciously or subconsciously are following that end up self-sabotaging our decisions when it comes to our style.

And the resource I have for you is called the Style Mindset Reset. And what this is going to be is really helping, and this is an exercise I do with my clients before we start shopping as well, is helping you to brainstorm where what, you know, where in your life and where, what rules have been accumulated.

And I'm just going to give you a little bit of warning that as you're doing this exercise, you're going to come up with a lot of rules, and that's very normal.

I mean, everything from how we think our bodies should look to what women should wear in society and what we should like to wear as women or as you age, you know, what is acceptable or not acceptable, what in this even can be influences from our own work environments.

But this guide is going to help you start to name what those rules Make them visible. Like, what are these rules I'm following, maybe even blindly, that are driving my decisions that I don't want to drive my decisions anymore?

And it just gives you a lot of freedom and awareness. So it's called the Style Mindset Reset. But outside of the podcast and that, you can find me on Instagram.

In fact, if you're listening, I love hearing from people. So come find me at style.decoded and message me and say, hey, I loved this or I have a question.

And then I'm also really active over on LinkedIn, just under my name, Ellie Steinbrink. So those are the ways they can find me.

Awesome.

Thank you. I really appreciate your depth of, like, really taking the time to know and care for your clients, that it's not just like a one-size-fits-all or top trends, because that doesn't necessarily fit everybody or what they're going for or what they're trying to achieve or who they really are.

That your focus is really on what makes you feel most like you. And I know authenticity is, like, such a buzzword, I feel like, in marketing right now.

But also, like... It's the word that my clients are coming to me with, like, that's what I want. And people who are experiencing burnout, they're like, I need authenticity because that is the thing that's going to prevent this burnout.

And I just so appreciate you coming in from this style perspective and really kind of reiterating these same things that we have been talking about on this podcast from your perspective here.

And it's just, it's like fitting another piece of the puzzle of just like, yes, it matters. It's foundational. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today.

You're welcome, Megan.

And actually, you just said something so spot on there, which is people coming to you burnt out and saying they need authenticity.

And what I find working with my clients is that you can sort of get into a performative state, right?

You can get into this where you think you're checking all the boxes and doing the right things, but it's actually authenticity that's going to be the thing that feels of freedom, that feels of peace.

And so that's. That's true with, you know, marketing tactics. It's true with your style. It's somewhat hard. It feels harder, right, to lean into authenticity.

But at the end of the day, it feels easier just to show up in that authentic way. So if those of you are out there struggling with that sort of dichotomy, lean into it.

Because trust me, it does feel easier when you don't feel like you're performing. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's really the only way forward.

It's not, if you're not authentic, it's, it's not going to last.

Mm-hmm. Thank you so much.

This was a really great conversation.

I'm excited to hear what everyone thought. Awesome.

Appreciate it. Thank you.