Mindfulness and Journaling: Anabel Salimian's Innovative Approach

Is planning your day-to-day life the key to better mental health? Join us as we sit down with Anabel, a dynamic 23-year-old aspiring clinical psychologist, to explore this intriguing idea. Anabel shares her inspiring journey, rooted in her academic studies at UCSB in Biopsychology and Applied Psychology, and the vital role her mentor played in shaping her understanding of positive psychology, mindfulness, and journaling. As an only child of Iranian immigrants, Anabel's story is one of self-discovery and resourcefulness, a testament to how personal background can drive professional aspirations.

We also dive into the creation of ROOTS, a life planner designed to boost mental well-being and daily functionality. Anabel discusses the hurdles and triumphs of transforming her passion project into a practical tool for others, the significance of community support, and the power of intuition. Learn how planners and journals can shift from being mundane tasks to empowering exercises in self-care. This episode champions the idea that self-reflection, goal-setting, and a holistic approach to education and career planning are essential elements of personal development. Join us for an engaging conversation that underscores the importance of acting now and leading by example in the pursuit of mental wellness.

Chapters

• 0:00 Empowering Young Minds
• 9:45 Following Your Untraditional Path
• 15:24 Embracing Self-Love and Abundance
• 19:07 Exploring Personal Development and Education
• 24:24 Navigating Interests Beyond Traditional Labels

Transcript

Michelle: 0:00

Welcome to who's your Mam, a podcast focusing on tomorrow's future, which are our kids, educators, teachers, parents, all encompassing, with the goal of understanding that our brain is a muscle that we can exercise to control the speed in the direction that we want. Let's go, y'all. The time is now. Annabelle, welcome to who's your Mama. Hey, michelle, thanks so much for having me. Yes, it's an absolute pleasure. So, for those of those that are listening that know you and your work, what you're doing in life and with your company, roots, your day-by-day planner, life planner I feel like that's what my daughter calls it. At least, I'll take that. That's the new rebranding. Yeah, she's going into her sophomore year in high school. So, and then, who's your Mama? We very much share a passion for thinking outside of just ourselves community perspective, teenagers, young adults and beyond. So that's where we first connected and have expanded since. So, with all that in mind, please introduce yourself and talk about where you were, where you are now, with regards to what sparked you, starting Roots, and then we'll go from there.

Anabel: 1:32

Yeah, sounds great. Thank you for the awesome intro. I'll try to keep up with that lively standard. But yeah, I'm a 23-year-old aspiring clinical psychologist. A 23 year old aspiring clinical psychologist I've always had a passion for helping others, for improving mental health and well-being.

Anabel: 1:52

Started off in undergrad at UCSB shout out to all the gauchos I did my I'm sorry, my bachelor of science in biopsychology with a minor in applied psych, so really just having an overall interest in both the biological and neuroscience aspect of wellbeing, emotions, mood, things like that and also having an interest in the psychology side.

Anabel: 2:16

So that's where I picked up my minor applied psychology, got to learn more about clinical implementations and more about young adult populations and community work.

Anabel: 2:26

And then it was through that applied minor, so just a couple of years ago I guess I graduated in 2022. So it's not I'm not a recent graduate anymore, as I'd like to say, but a couple of years ago, like in 2021, when I learned a lot about positive psychology, mindfulness practices, journaling, reflection, things like that, where I kind of really resonated with me and my own mental health journey, starting to explore with those techniques and learn a bit about how to implement those tools into bettering my own mental health. But then also, how can I communicate this with my friends and my peers who are also young adults my age who may have similar struggles, you know, more moderate mental illness concerns or struggles that aren't as severe, but still could use some resources and some techniques and some skills to help boost that. You know why can't you be the best form of yourself if you're not needing to seek therapy or you don't need intensive care? You can still have some tools and some resources to help improve daily function or just day by day.

Michelle: 3:33

You know that's I. That's so beautifully said on on multiple levels that I I could dive straight into one of the things that I have many that gave me cause to pause that I would like you to dive a little bit deeper into the roots of what got you to start roots is you talk about your journey, thinking outside yourself? You know you have this pathway from an academic standpoint. Was there any one defining or defining moments that sparked and we'll talk about later spark versus trigger that sparked something within you to go the direction you continue on, both scholastically and to start roots?

Anabel: 4:23

Yeah, great question. Most definitely, and for me the most impactful moment was in my junior year on these first couple courses in the positive psych world. I had a very, very inspiring mentor, dr Heidi Zetzer, and we worked at UCSB together on a lot of the positive psychology clinic work and from her teachings and just being, you know, more aware of this field. But positive psychology isn't something that I guess now it's becoming more popular and more talked about. Mindfulness practices, journaling, reflective meditation, things like that I think are now becoming more acceptable and like talked about in social media and whatnot. But I think back, like even five years ago, it was not something that I had heard about until I was in this class, um, and then I was like, oh, what is you know? I'm gonna take meditation more seriously or I'm gonna try mindfulness practices, I'm gonna try journaling, like things that were introduced to me through my coursework and then through your, your coursework.

Michelle: 5:25

I'm so sorry yeah no.

Michelle: 5:27

I just wanted because I'm trying, I'm going through the journey with you and I imagine people are mindfully and in their own heads and thinking, okay, what a gift it is to have a teacher or teacher's mentors. That really hit something within you, ignites that passion, and that's awesome that you have that at UC Santa Barbara. But for that to resonate for a lot of people not everyone, but for a lot of people it touched something personally. Was there anything personal where those two things were synergistic to really create the passion that you have and continue to have through your studies and your career and also roots?

Anabel: 6:11

Yeah, definitely. And again, for me, like I've always, just throughout high school, undergraduate till now, I've always wondered like how can we help other people, how can we provide other people, especially young adults and teens, how can we provide them with these resources, education materials, things like that? And that does stem from my childhood and my upbringing. I was an only child raised in a small family of three, my mom, my dad they're both immigrants from Iran, so they were not very familiar with American schooling or American cultures, things like that. So throughout my whole life it's really been, or what it felt like, is me finding resources for me. So I would reach out to different programs, I would do research on my own to try to find these different skills and tools and resources for whatever that may be.

Anabel: 7:03

And it got to that point where I sought out that undergraduate, my minor degree in applied psych kind of, saw this mentor learned about positive psych, and then from there it's just me reaching out to find the resources and then you know, kind of just like not having that readily available in front of my face, not having that given to me, is what now fuels me in like a circle kind of emotion to be like all.

Anabel: 7:27

Right now I want to be that person that's giving it to others, that's just putting it out there, you know, right in front of your face. Here's this book, here's this tool, here's this video. How can you use this for yourself and maybe for some people that will land? That will resonate with folks like, hey, I suddenly love journaling. Now I never knew I loved that or it could be useful for me, but now that it's in front of my face, I'm seeing it everywhere. It's more accessible, I'm able to try it, as opposed to never having known about it. Kind of like a similar situation to me, where I was just kind of lucky enough to stumble across that lovely mentor who taught me these things. Otherwise I would probably still be searching.

Michelle: 8:08

Well, there's no doubt you have a thirst for knowledge, and I always talk about nature versus nurture.

Michelle: 8:15

I believe that so much of, and if not all, of us are innately born with this fire in the belly, this thirst for a life. It doesn't have to be the same journey, but how that's nurtured internally, uh, grown or stifled by our environment, is a whole other part of it. So, having the tools especially as we've discussed at the beginning of this with teenagers, young adults and also everyone beyond, because we're never too old to grow but having that foundation to recognize that it's okay not to have the same things that people do, it's inside of you. What do you want to do with that for where you say you want to go, and if we can pave the road that has multiple different detours to show avenues and a platform of safety to talk about these things, that's really a beautiful thing and I, like you said, more now than ever people are, are open to wanting to share, and and so one congratulations on being your own advocate. That's beautiful and inspiring and um, so then too, then that then came into roots.

Anabel: 9:45

Yeah, exactly, and kind of touching upon that too, like there's no one size fits all, you know, like one person's journey is always going to be different than another person's journey.

Michelle: 9:56

Please say that again, just so people hear that.

Anabel: 10:08

One person's journey is going to be different than another person's journey. You know there's no one size fits will get to their destination. It's not going to be a form-fitted a, b and c. Sometimes there's different things that get involved different obstacles, different challenges but you always get to where you need to be. It's something I truly believe in.

Michelle: 10:17

Yes, ma'am, slow and steady, runs the race. Sometimes you got to crank up that that dial of speed on the train. You get off on a different stop. It's not the wrong stop. You got to crank up that dial of speed on the train. You get off on a different stop. It's not the wrong stop, you had to put it into gear.

Michelle: 10:29

Clearly, I've never driven a gear, so if I kept talking about this, my this would make my dad cringe. He's like really michelle, like trying to teach me how to drive. But is that you are controlling the speed? The speed and what that looks like, and I think that is something that I come across all the time, even internally. I work on depending on the gravity of the situation I want to go to is I'm so excited, I have this passion, and sometimes I go too fast and there's not even any roadblocks there. I'm not letting, enjoying the journey and taking the proper process or processes. And and a lot of people think, well, because that works was for somebody else, I'll just follow that cookie cutter. Maybe it would in some situations, but it's understanding, it's a blueprint of life Again, brain health, life, health that is sustainable, and so that's why I wanted you to repeat that again there's so many things that I resonate with and everything you said too, and especially, like you know, getting from point a to b.

Anabel: 11:37

And we're talking about, you know, how I got to roots from where I started in my undergrad academics, and just self-reflection and, honestly, like, for me it was very untraditional, like in that step where I didn't get from where I wanted to be, from A to B. And I can explain that. What do you mean by untraditional? Yeah, so after graduate school, for me what I expected was to take one or sorry after my undergrad, take one year off, work, get some experience and then get into graduate school, my clinical psych PhD that's kind of what I expected and heard was the more traditional route. You take a couple gap years, you get in one or two. So second application cycle comes around this past year and I have not gotten in yet.

Anabel: 12:21

And that's when I'm thinking to myself. You know I want to explore my passions a bit more. I know that I want to help others. I have these ideas and these are the ideas that I want to implement during my graduate school research. But why don't I just take matters into my own hands and why don't I start something now? That's when I created Roots just this past winter, and I was like you know what, even if it doesn't launch into something huge, even if it's just baby steps, this is a passion project for me. This is something that I want to do, always have wanted to do. There's no need for me to put the brakes on it. So what? I'm not in grad school yet. I don't have to do it in grad school. I can do it now. I'm still able to create these things. I'm still able to share these resources, have these conversations. So that's kind of my quote, unquote, untraditional path to how I got to starting Roots Now, earlier than what I thought I would, if that makes sense.

Michelle: 13:11

Of course, it makes complete sense and, again, inspiring. There's always excuses why we do what we do, also excuses why we don't. Yeah, and the time is now. If we want what we say we want, and if we don't, somebody else might, and, and so you felt a sense of urgency and passion, it sounds like, for continuing to help yourself, because by doing this, you are practicing what you preach in terms of putting your own words, thoughts, into action. So when you decided to make that brave decision and self-accountability, I like to call it to back yourself. Yeah, what did that look like afterwards?

Anabel: 14:01

Oh man, it was fun, it was tough but, you know, easier than I thought at the same time to take that step. So I've always had ideas. You know, I want to start roots and I want to start making wellness journals and wellness planners and teach people how to journal, how to stay organized, set goals. I want to share that and I was, like you know, waffling back and forth between how to even do that, but all I just kind of took a step back and said whatever idea comes to my head, I'm just going to follow through with that and if I get this feeling over and over and over that this is something, that's right. You know, you get that gut instinct, the intuition. I got a lot of that over winter break.

Anabel: 14:41

That's when I was kind of like sitting down in the holidays, had some time to reflect inward and think all right, I'm just going to do it. It's all about just taking that step. I love when you say the time is now. I really I say that a lot to myself, actually and I really love it because it's true. It's like, why are we going to sit around and wait for what? You know, that intuition, that gut feeling, is just going to get stronger. The time is now. I thought let's just jump take that step and after I did it was completely fine. I was like, okay, it's a little scary at first. I actually created something. I'm actually going to share this with the public. It's a little bit intimidating, but you know people are there to support you. You'll be surprised to see how many people do support you and things just kind of ripple effect from there. As long as you're confident within, like your truth and your purpose, then nothing can bring you down.

Michelle: 15:31

I completely agree. Nothing can bring you down. I at different points. There's a lot of things I say to myself and to my daughter, but for me I'm like I'm not going going down, there's no time for that. I mean I could make time. Sure there is there's no one or anything or things that's going to take me down. Have a little bless your heart, rest, and I'm not talking about sleep and things like that, I mean in my mind.

Michelle: 16:01

But if any, if anything was going to happen I would do that myself and that doesn't cross my mind, because what I dig deep, like you were saying your gut into and I call them different buckets in life, at least how my mind sees it. One is the self-love abundance bucket. So when my mind is triggered which is one side of the coin I visually think about flipping it over and I'm like, okay, heads or tails doesn't matter, but I know it's on the wrong side because I have these tomato vines that are intertwined and I need to unravel them to continue controlling the speed of the way that I know that's healthy and what's good for me is good for my daughter, and again trying to unravel them to continue controlling the speed of the way that I know that's healthy and what's good for me is good for my daughter, and again trying to lead by that within myself and then having conversations like with yourself and people listening to this to know that that's normal. Yeah, what's not is keeping it tangled up, sure, and with all the tabs open and you don't necessarily have to reboot yeah, you just click out of some of them.

Michelle: 17:13

So I think about that when I look at the day-by-day life planner of roots is how did you come up with, because I know I've used a planner since I graduated from college. My dad really encouraged that for both myself and my sister and that was a habit at a young age that has stuck with me and my daughter the same. So so when you were putting together Roots, having that in mind and it being a passion of yours, if you speak to people that find a planner to be just another thing, that's overwhelming, almost like a guilt of not doing it. It's a task, it's a chore versus an exercise of health. So how would you describe whether they use roots or some other form of planning to not look at it as a hindrance or something that's holding them back versus something that is accompanying them to what their goals are?

Anabel: 18:25

Yeah, that's a great question and definitely something that even I have challenges with, you know, myself being said creator of said day by day planner. There's where I will forget, or there's weeks where I get busy and I'll come back and be like, oh no, like feeling a little bit guilty, like I didn't, you know, plan my week out, I didn't write my goals, but then I again love the flipping of the coin, just shifting that mindset and being like you know what I'm doing, the best I can do right now. It's not the end of the world, I can just pick back up where I left off and that's kind of what I created. A day by day to be is like like it's there as a resource for you but it's not homework, it's not mandatory. A lot of these similar skills and like personal development tools and resources that are given throughout college campuses are given at schools. In high schools they tend to be like homework or they tend to be like assignments or like a teacher lecturing you about something, and it really turns kids away from that. They're like, oh, I don't want to listen to this. You know annoying. Next chore I have to do this, next task I have to do for homework. But instead, if it's just like a day by day structured planner, it's like all right, I know that it's sitting there, I'm able to go use it whenever I want. I can plan my week when I'm feeling like I'm motivated for it, but if I don't, it's not the end of the world. You know, there's no one lurking over me telling me that I have to, telling me that I need to, but otherwise it's for me to develop myself and I can do it at the best pace I can.

Anabel: 20:06

And I think that's like really important in terms of just any resource distribution or any of these educational materials is that it should be there as an opportunity for kids and teens and young adults, but not as like a mandatory task, not as like you, like you mentioned like annoying hindrance or anything like that. I feel like that's what I love about podcasts, conversations like we're doing now, these types of journals and books. It's like all right, they're gonna be there and when I'm feeling like I'm ready for it, I'll listen to the podcast or I'll write in my journal and I'll set my goals. But if some days I'm not feeling it, I'm not feeling my best, that's okay. I don't need to do those things, but I know that they're there ready for me when I'm when I'm ready for it as well need to do those things, but I know that they're there ready for me when I'm, when I'm ready for it as well.

Michelle: 20:46

Uh, I love the way you said that and I think, especially with the where we're at now in terms of technology, just over simulation, there's a time on everything. Yes, the time is to reflect, to feel and do, and so having the ability to go back and look at all those things where you're at helps your own internal gauge of where you want to go, because I think you've used, I know I've been surprised when I've looked back and whatever was going on, the narrative I was creating in my head at the time was different than actually things that were, you know, factual. I was like, wow, I can't believe that. I thought I wasn't doing a lot. And I looked back at my notes and I'm like, wow, I did this, I did that. Look at how that achieved that it's. I think it's not a scale, so to speak. It really is almost I call it a starred you know, I starred myself, you know like a gold star where when you're young, they put it on the board.

Michelle: 21:57

It's like you know yeah, you were just starred internally, or I just tell somebody he starred, Um it.

Anabel: 22:04

just to me it shines bright light of positive self-accountability, of progress and and I think that brightens up people internally and externally to know that you're actually doing a lot definitely exactly that's the importance of writing those things down, writing those moments down or those goals, looking back, seeing the progression, like you, and then also game planning for the future. You know, if you're wanting to set this goal and achieve it by a certain day or time, you're like all right, let me just reflect a little bit. How am I going to get there and keep pushing forward? I think it's very important as well, and it's just about what is it going to take to allow you to keep pushing forward. Is it this journal? Is it this podcast video? Is it this workbook? Like? What are the tools we can provide to get you going towards your goals and your personal health journey and wellness journey? Absolutely.

Michelle: 23:02

One of the things that I've been hearing a lot about on social media podcasts just amongst different friend groups, is STEM. I know some people are more than others and some people are not familiar at all with what STEM is. Can you expand on that?

Anabel: 23:23

Yeah, definitely. And for me, you know STEM. The last time I more seriously heard the term STEM was in like high school, when talking about you know, your future college degrees. What are you looking more into? Are you looking into being in a STEM field, or more artistic or liberal or like English, those kinds of things? And for me, the definition of STEM. I'm a little bit biased, since psychology, as far as I'm concerned, is not technically a part of STEM, just because it's not in the acronym Science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and there's a lot of arguments, debates we can get into at a different day, about psychology being a science or not.

Michelle: 24:07

I think it is, so I think it falls under STEM, that category, I would love to dive into this at another time and I'm sure listeners would love that as well, but in the spirit of this call definitely, but we've already paved the way for that. But please continue that and I love that. You say not you know vice, but just generally speaking, because not everyone is familiar with that and I know that's come up with my daughter and some of her peers in high school.

Anabel: 24:34

So I thought it would be a really great time for you to expand on that yeah, definitely, and for me, like again, you mentioned like that period in high school and that's kind of when these conversations were happening for me as well and more of in terms of, like what discussions between peers or between teachers and kids of, like, what are your interests in?

Anabel: 24:53

Are they more STEM or are they more like English language based arts?

Anabel: 24:58

I'm not sure of the other equivalent right now, I'm probably misspeaking, but to me it was always like a divide between science, engineering, math and English history and the arts, and that was always actually pretty difficult for me because I loved both things but felt as though I had to fit in a category based on my degree or based on my primary interests. So I would fall under the STEM category. I do resonate more with science and math and technology and I do think that, in general, the STEM fields is focused more, in my opinion, on like biology, more hard sciences like mathematics, engineering and then technology. For me is, in my mind, it's like the advancements in technology, so fields that are working engineering fields, for example, that are working to advance technology through building different things, or science fields that are working in biology and medicine to advance the future of health, the adventure of technology, the future of mankind. So it gets a little bit wishy-washy, especially for me, since I don't kind of stand firm in being a woman in STEM, I guess.

Michelle: 26:13

I Blurred lines, blurred lines.

Anabel: 26:15

Blurred lines? Yeah, I would say. I would say I.

Michelle: 26:18

You're not wishy-washy.

Michelle: 26:21

I think the labels of this are have the ability to be confusing at a minimum. Hence the reason I really wanted to touch on this and I want us to dive in further, especially as kids have learned to have more of a voice and have the tools within themselves to be able to articulate what they're feeling and as to why. Hence, part of the whole reason that we're discussing it and a big reason why I started who's your Mama? Is this educational way of parents and teachers partnering healthcare providers with their students, not waiting for things to change, all having the same goal of that, yeah, yeah definitely.

Anabel: 27:08

I think that's something that's important to touch upon in that, in terms of being an educator, I would say for me personally's important to touch upon. In that, in terms of being an educator, I would say for me personally, based on my experience in high school and through undergrad, if I had to give like a word of advice, like a suggestion on my own behalf, would be to educate teens and young adults a little bit more about the fluidity and how there are those blurred lines. Right, you don't have to be a STEM major, you don't have to identify as a woman in STEM or whatever those different categories are. You can have multiple interests and you don't need to belong to a category. I think that's something that's kind of important to me and that could be hit or miss for a lot of folks.

Anabel: 27:50

But again, like psychology not being necessarily in cookie cutter in any of those two categories, I think it is growing to be a part of STEM more, but I don't feel like I necessarily resonate with mathematics, engineering, technology or like biological sciences, so it's like, where do I fit in? And I think that those should be more generalized in terms of like. Okay, these are like different interests you have in different fields. You can pursue different topics, whatever courses you like, but I don't think it should be like a category, like you are a STEM person or you are an English language person. I think that happened to me in high school a good amount, where there was a, there was a strict divide between like oh, like oh, what are you better at, what are you good at, and it's like that's right, I can have interests in both and I can pursue all these different fields and topics.

Anabel: 28:40

So I think that'd be helpful to allow kids to have that versatility and have that choice to be like. I do like science a little bit, but I like English a little bit too, and I do like math a little bit too, you know. So there's no like one way or another.

Michelle: 28:55

And that resonates with me and I know so many people. I know a lot of teachers that have frustrations. It doesn't mean they don't love teaching and thank you all for for what you do. Just so much gratitude Again.

Michelle: 29:10

That being said, waiting for things the tide to shift doesn't mean that things can't shift. Yeah, and we already have enough conflict regarding labels. Without going into it, I think it's kept obvious on so many different areas. We don't need any other reasons for division. Agreed, so a broad scope. Or I say I said you know, swiping the canvas with one paintbrush and painting it all the same is a hard no, yeah, understanding that you can flourish in so many different areas. You don't have to be defined by certain things. Definitely, the time to explore what you're passionate about, what different parts of your brain are sparked and or triggered, is intertwined but ignites you to be passionate about what a gift.

Michelle: 30:03

Personally, I was a Spanish major, hola, and a business minor, science, math, loved. There's a creative side to me that a lot of people aren't even aware of um, but more entrepreneurial and things like that. Um, but in terms of your traditional uh teachings, school-wise, no one would have predicted that I would have gone into the background that I've had for almost brace myself a quarter of a century at women's health, psychology, psychiatry, cancer, genetic testing no background in that and but a huge passion for it. So the foundation I had work, ethic, knowledge, seek to understand, pushing myself outside my comfort zone, pushing past the fear a little bit of fear and good like, oh, I'm scared, but I'm backing myself. That internal love and trust. My own champion I was able to touch so many people myself and beyond, inspire my daughter to be. It is that she loves science and math and is also incredibly creative.

Michelle: 31:24

So getting away from those labels and including this, uh, progressive way of thinking of not limiting yourself the limitations is just that, yes, so sky's the limit, and then it's limitless. Don't limit it, let it be limitless. And so I really, really love that. You said that. I think that that will resonate with teens, young adults, to really start to get them to think and ask questions. Seek to understand, be conscious of the questions you ask, not just firing off a bunch of things. Be present to not listen and hear and make it a conversation to then be collaborative for what one wants here, that you can make good decisions at a younger age to navigate. Those are life skills.

Anabel: 32:17

And yeah, and one thing I do wanna add too quickly to that is things will change. You know, like I started off, I was like I'm gonna be a lawyer and I know for sure I'm gonna be a lawyer. In junior year of high school Then I took one biology course and I was like you know what? I love neuroscience and I want to be a doctor biologist. I want to go to med school the next year. After that I'm taking my psychology class and I'm like you know what I want to do this.

Anabel: 32:39

So things will change so much and across those different categories of STEM versus not STEM too. So I think that it's also important to let everyone know that it's not cut, you know, stick and stone right where you said you're going to go is how we're going to end up. Things are going to change so much and I know it sounds cliche and ironic. Everyone always says like, oh, in college you'll change your major a couple of times. Sounds cliche, it's annoying to hear it.

Anabel: 33:05

I was annoyed when I heard it, but it's so true and it is actually important to let people know that or remind that it's okay to change your mind and it's okay to have different passions develop that maybe you didn't know before because you weren't sparked by it. Like you say, like you get this spark from something new, you learn and it awakens something inside of you and you're like, wow, this is actually much more exciting than what I'm doing right now and it's totally okay to jump ship and and that, if that's your calling, I totally agree, and I know we speak the same language.

Michelle: 33:35

We, you know, talk about jumping ship. It's like I'm going to dive in to a different ocean and I might dive deeper, or I might skim it for a while and then decide to scuba down the road. What I do know is life is too short to snorkel through it. What I do know is life is too short to snorkel through it. Follow your passion and be your own advocate for what you say you want and what you're willing to do. Start something, finish it, learn from it, reflect and see how you want to branch out from the roots that you set. And so, with that, we are out of time. Annabelle, again, thank you so much for taking the time to come on who's your Mama. It has sparked a lot within me. I know it has in others. I look forward to having you again and continue our conversation. Let's go y'all. The time is now. I love it. Michelle, thanks so much. Thank you for tuning in to who's your Mama, and I look forward to collaborating from a community standpoint for the next episodes.