#5. “Betting On Myself” with Cindy Cheung

Picture this. 

You’ve been married for over 20 years, raised two beautiful girls, bought your dream retirement home, have a good job, and are planning to transition to a more relaxed life with your spouse. 

Then, out of nowhere, shortly after selling your matrimonial home to “downsize”, your husband tells you he wants a divorce. Not only that, he had told his family, hired a lawyer, and you were literally the last to know.

As if that wasn’t hard enough, COVID hits. You lose the new job you were so excited about just a couple of months ago.

Now, without the identity of being someone’s wife or having a corporate title, who are you?

This was Cindy Cheung’s reality four years ago.

Today, Cindy lives in her own "castle" with her two daughters—the house she built after her divorce. She left the corporate world, became a professor at a local college, started her own consulting business, and is simply shining her light.

How did Cindy transform her life from shock, betrayal, and pain to incredible growth and love?

Find out in this new episode of Untying The Knot.

In our conversation, this badass queen and I cover: 
➡️ It's okay to be angry, sad, or whatever—give space to your intense emotions 
➡️ Choosing to channel these emotions to fuel your personal growth
➡️ Rebuilding life with a new vision for yourself and your children
➡️ Finding a sense of freedom and liberation in being single 
➡️ Embracing different variations of love in your life

Cindy, the queen of metaphors, also compares marriage to a “bullet train” and introduces us to a new word: “liberosis.”

Don’t know what that means? Listen in to find out.

Connect with Cindy on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/cindyjcheung/

Join my divorce group coaching membership, “Chaos to Clarity,” and start your journey from merely surviving to truly thriving. 🌟

👉 Start Your Journey Here

Follow me for daily inspiration and tips on how to reinvent yourself through divorce:

📸 Instagram
🌐 Facebook

I'm here to support you to turn the chaos into clarity and create a life you love! 💪✨

Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
01:55 The Unexpected Unfolding of a Divorce Journey
07:26 The Shock and Betrayal of Divorce
12:13 Dealing with Anger and Disrespect
22:48 Announcing the Divorce to Family and Friends
26:21 Finding Strength and Resilience in Rebuilding
31:36 Embracing Freedom and Liberation as a Single Person
48:05 The Journey of Self-Love and Reinvention
50:44 Honoring Your Emotions and Healing Journey
54:24 The Power of Self-Love and Internal Validation

Follow me for inspiration and tips on how to reinvent yourself through divorce:
📸 Instagram
🌐 Facebook
▶️ YouTube
I'm here to support you to turn the chaos into clarity and create a life you love! 💪✨

Transcript

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (00:00)
Hi everyone, Lisa here. Today I'm joined by a very good friend, Cindy Cheung. Cindy will be sharing her divorce journey. We're gonna talk a lot. Before that, I want to introduce you to Cindy. So Cindy is a professor at Conestoga College School of Business in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada, where she shares

her expertise in the insurance program and mentor the next generation of insurance industry leaders. Outside of the classroom, you'll find Cindy working out with her professional trainer because she believes a healthy body is key to healthy mind. She thrives on meeting new people and getting to know their story, soaking up their wisdom, whether at a social gathering or professional networking events. She's also a proud

single mom to two incredible young women Her love for learning never stops, which is why she's embarking on a new journey next month to pursue a master's of education at the Queen's University. Exciting, exciting, exciting times. Hello, Cindy.

Cindy (01:09)
Hello, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (01:11)
lovely background, which matches your dress. Cindy and I used to work at an insurance company long time ago. We actually didn't work together. What connected us is our divorce journey. I shared a post on LinkedIn and Cindy reached out. So we reconnected just about less than a year ago and truly, truly connected. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Cindy (01:31)
Well, it was late last year. Yes, and that lovely. It was just the universe putting us together somehow.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (01:38)
Absolutely, we will talk about that too, that our divorce journey is also an opportunity to open ourselves up to new possibilities and relationships. So tell us a little bit, how did your divorce unfold? How long were you married?

Cindy (01:53)
my goodness, how did... I feel like that is such a long story. This is what happens when you are... I have been married or I was married for almost 20 years and I had...

I had known my ex -husband for nearly half my lifetime. So it was over 20 something years that we were together. And how it unfolded was probably quite a surprise for me and many other people, simply because I did not see it coming. I'm sure a lot of others in my situation will say the same thing. It's like we didn't see it coming. I think a part of that is probably because we get so absorbed in our...

in our own life in what we have to do and it becomes a grind in a routine that we don't get a chance to stop. It's almost like being, I kind of think about that the 20 years, like it being on a bullet train where...

You're going somewhere and it's a long journey. You're going fast, but you don't remember passing by any of the scenery. And it kind of felt that way to me. So when it all halted and it was time to get off this bullet train, I actually had no, like no memory of where I was going. Was there a destination and did I pack the right thing? Do I have the right? There wasn't anything like you just kind of got off on a platform and.

were just told this is it. This is the end of the journey and you had no idea how you got there. So I want to say that I did not see my divorce coming. And this is all in retrospect. Yes, I can pinpoint all the different stations and different signs that led to that.

I guess that destination, if you want to call it that. But I didn't know it at the time. So how it unfolded was just very much surprising out of the blue. My husband came home one day and said he didn't want to be married anymore.

to me and that it was time to, do something different with his life. So it was almost like I am, we're getting off at the next station, but I'm connecting to a different train. So you're moving on in a different direction. So it was like we were.

off the same train, but taking different ones to continue. And I kind of look at it that way now even. So I think like most people, you don't really expect it. You try to make sense of it. And I'm still trying to make sense of it, even though It's been over four years since then.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (04:20)
I can so relate and I think a lot of people can too and I love that metaphor of being a bullet train because like when you have kids and your kids have school you have both of you are building your careers and you just like the speed is fast and the logistical side of things is like and

Cindy (04:23)
Yes.

Mm You just missed a lot. Yeah, you missed a lot.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (04:39)
Yeah, we never check in with each other, right? Like, how long were you married? More than 20 years, you said?

Cindy (04:46)
we were married for, it would have been our 20 year anniversary in 2020, yeah, because we got married in 2000. And it was just very, ironically, I was planning a 20 year anniversary, wedding anniversary destination. And it was, that was never happening.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (05:03)
So tell us about the shock factor because I know I had a similar experience and I thought we were on the same page. We were building this beautiful life. You know, we were welcoming our second daughter and the vision I had of the next at least two years or three years clearly was different than him. I had no clue. No idea until

Cindy (05:14)
to you.

Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (05:29)
someone literally like he came to me it's like I don't want to be married to you but I was like what and so and that was

Cindy (05:34)
Yeah, I think at first it was very, very shocking because it wasn't as if there were signs leading up to it and I felt that divorce was gonna be

was going to be the solution that we would end up parting our ways very much like you because I wasn't prepared for it. And maybe that was a part of the, the fact that I couldn't see outside of the peripheral. I, what I imagine our life was going to be like, and then I had always imagined that is that we would, grow old together because our children were already turning into young adults and we had been married for 20 years. So then I see, I saw further, like for you, you said, you know, I saw the next two years, what it would look like. I actually,

saw something further for me it was well we had already purchased our retirement property even so we talked about a lot of long -term into our old age and retirement so there was a lot of those plans and then that really changed so I think I wasn't prepared for that because I had such a longer outlook and it was almost like I already finished writing our story for us right and now I have to go back

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (06:39)
Mmm.

Cindy (06:44)
to change all of that. That's the choose your own adventure story that was not going to be my adventure anymore and nor was it going to be his. So I think that the shock

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (06:45)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Cindy (06:55)
the shock factor was there. And even if I look back to that day and I think of how was I feeling at the time, it was just, it was like, and maybe most people can say the same thing. It's like, it's an out of body experience where you are standing and you're actually watching yourself through this whole transaction, this whole conversation. it was like, like watching a movie. I still look back at it to see it that way as if I was watching a movie, cause I don't think I was fully physically mentally

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (07:18)
-hmm.

Cindy (07:24)
present there.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (07:26)
Yeah, It's like you wanting your body, you came out of it. And a lot of that is introspection now looking at the time as well, right? You're adding your experience now. So after that shock, I know your story a little bit and you were in corporate and this happened and COVID hit a lot of things happened.

Cindy (07:32)
Thank you.

Yeah.

for sharing.

my goodness, yeah. So if we're talking about 2020, everybody has a story, their own story for 2020. Most of it is swirling around COVID. And I think a lot of people like myself and yourself, we found ourselves in situations that were very pivotal and very impactful.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (07:51)
Yes.

Yeah.

Cindy (08:09)
big changes in that year, not just because of work from home or because we lost our job. But I, everything that you can think possibly could have collapsed or imploded and got swallowed up into a pit happened to me in 2020 because in January of 2020, I had started my new job at a company

And when he came home a week later after I started this new job, he had announced we would that he wanted a divorce. And then within about a month after that announcement, we had already sold our family home. So our family home and my children's childhood home was already sold and I was already moving. This was Within the month, because

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (08:49)
within how long again? You said.

Cindy (08:55)
Well, I have to step back. So I think what happened here is, and I haven't shared it, and this is all in retrospect because at the moment I had no idea that he had already planned to have a divorce. He had already planned to leave me. I was the last person to know. He talked to, prior to telling me in the new year.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (08:57)
Okay.

Cindy (09:14)
So this was before Christmas, the last Christmas he had already spoken to his whole family about leaving me and he talked to everybody except me.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (09:24)
Wow.

Cindy (09:25)
Yes, that's right. So I was I should have been the first person to know but I was the last person to know. meanwhile, he was, you know, packing his parachute or I was kind of left in the dark. He had in retrospect, he had convinced me to sell our like our family home, because we were going to downsize, we had a vacation property already. That was our long term retirement plan. And so I thought selling our

family home was a part of that plan, but I think it was a part of his divorce plan. And even before then, he admitted that prior to announcing he wanted to divorce with me, he

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (09:54)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Cindy (10:01)
had already consulted three different divorce lawyers. So he had been researching and I was very disappointed and I was very, I felt very betrayed. And I think that's very normal because if I've been your life partner for nearly half my life, like 20 something years of my life, right? I thought I deserved more in how you go about breaking up with me. I mean, I've had...

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (10:04)
Wow.

20 years, yeah.

Cindy (10:27)
I've had people in high school that broke up with me in much more classy ways than that. So I absolutely thought this was a low blow. And I thought, wow. And so that came crashing in, my job, COVID, having to sell the family home, if I had known. Yeah, and I think everything was just, I felt I was put into a very unfair.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (10:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

this hard.

Cindy (10:51)
an unfair playing field, if you want to call it that. even though when I talk about it, it still makes me very angry. So I still have that anger that was tied to that memory. I think of how, like, why would you treat somebody that is, first of all, somebody that you've been with half your life and the mother of your children? I thought I deserved a better setup than that, maybe better support. And that was probably the naive part in me thinking

that when you're going through a divorce with that person that they would be looking out for you. so a lot of it was just a very big shock,

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (11:26)
-hmm.

Cindy (11:30)
but it just also kept rippling, that shock just kept rippling for quite a bit.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (11:34)
Yeah, when you go through the legal process and the injustice through all this, right? And talking about fair or not fair. And also ultimately is the disrespect aspect of it.

Cindy (11:42)
Yeah.

that's why when I wouldn't, when people who do not understand or did not know that that's how it ended for me, when they hear it from his side, they think that it's very amicable. I thought to myself, there's nothing amicable about driving your wife of 20 years or somebody that you've been a partner with for 20 something years to a dark parking lot and then announcing you didn't want to be married anymore.

To me, that's just the worst way to be disrespected and the worst way to be treated. But nobody knows that. That was my experience that night. Nobody knows how he went about planning the whole thing. It was just very manipulative on his end. He wanted to see how it was going to unfold. He wanted to control the outcome. And I had no idea.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (12:14)
how it felt.

Cindy (12:34)
any of that, right? So when people say, it's quite amicable. I see you guys get along and he's such a great dad and he does so much and he's so supportive of you and et cetera, et cetera. It actually makes me angrier. Like even thinking about it right now, because I don't think he deserves that. I don't think he deserves people looking at him that way. I think it's just, it's a misrepresentation and it really pisses me off.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (12:59)
And that's okay. You're right. This kind of emotion. It's okay. And we did the awareness of us acknowledging that, wow, I'm still angry about this. Right? It's okay. It's okay.

Cindy (13:01)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. And be honest, I know it sounds terrible, I think it was that anger that probably gave me the strength and the energy to do what I had to do versus the other way. And whether it's energy coming from anger or coming from love or coming from fear, it...

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (13:22)
I love that.

Cindy (13:32)
pushed me in a way that felt very positive for me at the time. it wasn't because I was holding onto the bitterness. I think I was holding onto something that was challenging me where I had no idea that I was going to get thrown out of an airplane and you've already packed your parachute. So I guess I'll make mine on the way down. I think it was, well, it really was. I think it was that where I thought, wow, this is great. Well, you know what?

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (13:35)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Cindy (13:58)
I can't just roll in and just take what you have given me. I need to build something and become better. I think it was that anger that was more challenging. It was like, okay, I see, challenge accepted. Well, I'm going to come out of this. I don't think it's going to be easy.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (14:06)
Yeah, and stronger. Yeah, I love

Cindy (14:21)
But there was other things too, like I had two children that depended on me. And to me it was like, okay, well, I need a home. I need to build all of this for us. I think a lot of that was what really drove me to kind of continue with that. it still does in a way today when I think back. I don't, yeah. Yep. You can probably see that right now I'm going to. Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (14:38)
Yeah, I can feel from your your energy and I love what you're saying is that yeah, so so that the emotions we all have emotions. It's within our power to decide. Are we channeling the emotions to something positive? Or are we going to just like, right and let that emotions to be

Cindy (14:50)
Yeah.

Yep.

Thank you.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (15:06)
Controlling us or directing us. So it's really within our power to do that I love what you said is that he was already prepared his parachute or everything but you were Knitting your parachute as you go, which is obviously challenging because you didn't know you weren't prepared But what a great attitude you said challenge accepted even though despite all of the injustice or

Cindy (15:11)
Yeah.

No.

Yep.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (15:33)
shock and betrayal on multiple levels. And I can tell and still Like, what's the other way? what's the other option? Right? it's how I see it, in we have a lot of parallel in our stories, maybe a little bit different. My kids were younger, I was pregnant. But it's similar story. I was checking in with my son, actually, I'm maybe I'm digressing a little bit. I was like, how are you doing? He was like,

Cindy (15:41)
Yeah.

You're right.

No.

Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (15:58)
I think we're thriving And he said, I'm really enjoying life just some background. My kids are with me like you 100 % of the time, which can be challenging, a lot emotionally and also logistically. One thing I remember telling my son who was five, six at the time, because we were all baffled. We were like, my God, what's going on? Like this is a, what's happening, right? When we were told we didn't know what's going on.

Cindy (16:22)
Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (16:26)
is that I told him, I remember he was like, hey, honey, I said, not only will we survive this, we will be thriving. I think, I didn't know how at the time, but that really stuck with him. now almost, my God, four years, our timeline is also very similar Four years later, I mean, I think I'm just hearing that.

Cindy (16:44)
Yeah, our timeline is very similar.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (16:49)
because I questioned sometimes like, are we thriving? Are we? But hearing that from the validation from the kid is like, okay, like, okay, I'm doing something right, even though I was like, knitting that parachute trying to survive, you know, coming down, I don't know, what's the speed?

Cindy (17:03)
Yeah.

I'm pretty sure I just took off my dress and held it. a lot of times like and I have now encountered a lot of people where when they talk about their divorce journey how it happened what they went through and I can see that they're not thriving as well or they are still working through what they went through.

I will admit for anybody that's listening to this, your journey like mine and like Lisa's and everybody else's, it's not easy. It's all difficult in its own way. you internalize those challenges differently and you navigate through them differently. But you're right, Lisa. And I agree that it comes down to choice. So what do you choose when you are presented with

And it's hard because all those choices are not easy choices. So it's like picking the best of the worst, right? We had to do many difficult things and through it all, we kept thinking like, this is going to be better. It's going to be better. And we have to make it better because you're right. That is the best choice. It's not lay down and die from this.

we have to keep going, there's other people that depend on us. that was the kind of energy that I was leaning on. I think that's what gave me strength, which was for me, I thought, well, I felt like a complete loser, first of all, because I thought I was put together enough to be able to keep my family together, keep my marriage together, keep all of that together. So when you...

are no longer going to be married and you're in a divorce situation, there is a sense of failure. I had to stop thinking about it as a failure. it took me a long time to tell my entire family about it because, when he explained that to me that he wanted to be divorced, I had to process it for almost a week before we decided together to tell the kids. And then before I could announce it to the rest of my family, and I have a huge extended family,

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (19:06)
Mm -hmm.

Cindy (19:06)
And culturally, nobody in my family, nobody in my culture even divorces. They just put up with each other till death do us part.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (19:12)
Yeah. Also another commonality, the Chinese background here. Yeah, it's like, it's a shame, a lot of baggage attached to I'm, I'm the first one in my family who got divorced and I still haven't told my large extended family back in China, because it just even explaining the, the multitude of things is like, what?

Cindy (19:31)
Yeah.

The concept. Yeah. because people are always looking for, and they still do, people always want to look for a reason why the marriage didn't work out. Why? It's like a lot of five year olds asking you, but why? And I want to know too, because when he told me, I want to know, I want to be that. Why are we having a divorce? I remembered.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (19:43)
Why? Yeah.

Yes!

me, please!

Cindy (20:00)
I remember specifically asking for that, that that question was, okay, so you don't want to be married to me anymore. Why? How come? Explain to me, give me some reasons, right? Because you, you start to internalize that you failed somewhere that you're not good enough for them to want to stay with you anymore.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (20:16)
 not a good, good wife. Maybe, you know, I didn't do ABCDE. I wasn't understanding wasn't supporting, I don't know, I wasn't there whenever he wanted sex. I don't know, whatever that is, you know, maybe I put too much effort on the kids and not enough on him. And you start to go rumin ating and search questions, right? Search answers of like, why? Yeah.

Cindy (20:29)
You wanna know why?

Yes. So what is it? What is it? And do you know what? and this is where I also learned is that some people don't know what they want, but they're pretty clear with what they don't want. So the why, the why is not because he was able to say to me, because you didn't do A, B, C, and D. It wasn't any of that. It was his heart.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (20:51)
So true.

Cindy (21:00)
and his mind and his body didn't want to be in that marriage in that relationship. Did he explore that? Probably not. And that's again, maybe because he's lacking that self awareness. I don't know, but he didn't have an answer for why he didn't want to be married other than he was unhappy and unhappy is just very vague, right? Unhappy is a symptom of stuff of A, B, C, and D, but he couldn't name any of that. So he couldn't give me an answer.

To be honest, he didn't even answer me. He just shook his head. I thought, okay, well, maybe he doesn't wanna talk about this. Maybe one day he will write me a letter or an email. And I have been waiting for that letter and email and it's been over four years.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (21:41)
great point. So, a lot of people I talked to and myself as well. I spent a lot of time, especially when there was an infidelity involved and in my case, completely cutting off with the kids, abandonment involved. Okay. Look at my bookshelf here. I read so many, like one level was about affairs and one level was about like, you know, family relationships anyways. So,

Cindy (21:53)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (22:04)
And I read so much and I was joining coaching groups myself as participants and just trying to figure out the answer until I realized my god, Lisa, it's not your job to figure out why he made his choices. And that was like, Ben, okay, now I can focus on myself and I need to. And that's where things really start to change. So was there a moment like this for you to be like, my god,

Cindy (22:16)
Exactly. Yep.

Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (22:30)
aha moments like this or it was a gradual.

Cindy (22:30)
Yeah, there was. it was probably as soon as I started when I asked him, that was the first person to ask that question, he didn't give me an answer. I thought it was just maybe more a timing. He didn't know how to articulate it at the time, didn't want to talk about it yet.

because again, I was being considerate, right? where it really fell on me and it was more of a realization was after I had announced to my family and I had to tell everybody at the same time. this probably was not the best way to tell my family, but I wanted to make sure that everybody got the same message and everybody understood. So I did a family email. I composed an email and I explained,

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (23:05)
Mm -hmm.

Cindy (23:11)
what is going on right now with my marriage, where we're at. And I remember

in it saying that this was not the news that I wanted to share with the family and this was not how I wanted to share it, but this is the best way that everybody will get the news at the same time. I mentioned that my ex -husband and I are going through a divorce process. this is all very surprising for me and I am working through it. I don't have the answers to anything at this time. I just know that there are things that I need to take care of. so in my communication, I specifically said that I don't have the answers.

I also indicated that I don't feel that this is a failure, like a reflection of a failure for either of us. I don't look at it as if my marriage or my relationship has failed. I had to look at it as if it's evolved. And the evolving of this relationship could mean that we go in separate paths, but we have evolved into individuals where we're no longer.

sharing the same path or the same goals or the same journey anymore. I don't know what it's going to look like, but I did say in my email that I wanted to take care of myself and my kids and I'm going to continue to thrive. I remember saying that.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (24:50)
You have me!

Cindy (24:25)
It was, it was. And then I remember every time I would bump into a friend or so somebody, I always had to say, we're not together anymore. I would say, I don't know if you heard. So this was, this is something that you have to relive all the time.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (24:33)
Hmm.

Cindy (24:40)
some people ask a lot of questions because they're confused. To them, it's the same thing. Well, yeah, it came out of the blue. It shocked them too. And they want an answer. And I remember people asking me all the time, well, what happened? Did you know this was happening? And I wanted to say, I don't have the answer. But if you ever talk to him and he gives you an answer, please let me know. And even today, people say,

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (24:45)
It's a shock. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

when he tailshares with you.

Cindy (25:03)
Yeah, it's really true because you say, well, what happened? You guys, you seem like good parents. You get along externally. Whatever you see is not necessarily what people are feeling inside. Right. constant being asked and constantly having to tell people that I'm now divorced from my ex -husband. I don't know why we're divorced.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (25:26)
Yeah, that's why it's such a journey that it's an emotional toll because first of all, you're shocked, right? Maybe you're on the other side to telling your spouse you wanted to leave, but still that's you're going through a lot of internal battles and then you're going through this legal process, which is extremely stressful. At the same time, you're carrying the burdens and questions from others and which you don't have the answer as you are still navigating this new territory.

Cindy (25:31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (25:54)
I just want to thank you for sharing and pointing something out is that how you approach this with such maturity and grace and vulnerability and truth during a time when it's so uncertain I don't believe in bashing out X at all because I believe we all have our journey but compared to how he approached it and you really approached this even though

Cindy (25:54)
Yep.

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (26:21)
you were in such shock and with so much grace. I just want to point that out and enough about him. Let's forget about him. so I want to ask how you went from in that space, right? Not doing well in your career. There was some shock there and then this big change, a lot of changes during COVID.

Cindy (26:29)
Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (26:46)
with all of the shocks to coming out of this divorce, going into a completely different career path, having your own consulting business, become a teacher and professor. And then just really, when we chatted, you're just this, this beam of light and then I can feel it. Right. how did you,

got yourself out of that dark place and when you were jumping out of a, no, when you were dumped out of an airplane, like in the air, so it's like out of here. So what are some, yeah.

Cindy (27:11)
I'm sorry.

Yeah, my dark

When I got airplane seat. You you got ejected, and then they thought, do you still have your parachute on? I will have to say, in 2020, you're right. I started a new job and then sold my family home. then COVID happened a couple of months after I started my new job. And then a couple of months after that, I got fired from my new job, sold my second home.

Yeah, so in 2020, I could have dumped that into the garbage and redid that entire year because I can't imagine anything else. I could have gotten dumped on me that year. you're right. How do we get through this? Because every time it was like, gosh, the divorce. my gosh, it's COVID. Now we're all locked down. my goodness, you got fired from your job too. now you're selling your house and other homes. In the span of 18 months, I moved three times.

remember how I said it felt like I was watching a movie every time something drastic like that happened. it was like watching a movie. I was outside of my body. One of the things that I remember saying over and over to myself, and that has always been maybe my mantra is like, it's the words were it's going to be okay. You're going to be just fine. I remember sitting on my porch the day that I got.

So being divorced and moving that whole process, it can be numbing and distracting because you're so busy packing and everything else that has to go along with it. Yeah. But then being fired and coming home and this was during COVID sitting on my porch outside. I hadn't even told my kids yet and I was sitting there and I remember just keep, I kept saying to myself, you're going to be okay. in a way I didn't have that same fear that I had before. I think it was because I asked myself,

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (28:44)
logistically.

Cindy (29:06)
10 years from now, if you could come and stand in front of yourself sitting on this porch, what would you say? I thought to myself, you know what? I would tell myself, you're gonna be just fine because you don't know it yet, but you are going to draw strength. You're going to learn. You're gonna have this level of wisdom. I wanted to say to myself then, like 10 years from, my 10 year self from now, talking to my 10 year later self,

I wanted to say, I would bet on you any day. when I told myself that I would always bet on myself, that's where I knew I had to win for myself, because I was betting on myself. And that meant that I believed in myself. So that's what I told myself on the porch. it's this out of body experience. I know it sounds like very weirdly spiritual, but it was. It was, you're going to be fine. And I would bet on you any day. And you know what? When I reflect back, I don't really...

count my laurels or I don't look at this as accomplishing, you know, awards and trophies. I think of the things that were important to me, how I wanted to have results. So I saw what I, I envisioned my results and I worked backwards on how I could get there. the most important thing for me was looking after myself and my kids and rebuilding our home again. that's all I focused on. I didn't know what that meant, but I did it.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (30:25)
So you had a vision, you had a vision.

Cindy (30:28)
my vision also required me to have no fear. And I know that sounds unrealistic. Like we, we always have some type of fear. I had a lot of fear, but I still had to brave through it. So for me, it was really, I, I ended up buying a house or not even buying a house. I ended up buying an empty land, an empty piece of land, believe it or not. I envisioned on that land, what my house was going to look like. I worked with a custom builder.

to build my house and how I was gonna live in it with my kids. that's what I envisioned. when I thought about getting a job because I had lost my job, I thought, okay, I'm gonna have to start applying. Like I went back to doing and wanting to do what I always did because I was comfortable with it, but I didn't feel happy about doing it. So this is where those things started to change for me with things that I would have done before because I was married.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (31:10)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Cindy (31:21)
I stopped doing not not out of spite, but because it wasn't working for me. And that.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (31:26)
Yeah, yeah. If you yeah, if it doesn't work for you, why you keep doing the same thing. So a divorce can really be a catalyst of big changes and to really pursue what you want to what you always desired and never did, take some risk to try some a different career or just doing things for you. It's a game changer.

Cindy (31:35)
It is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think maybe the building a home from a flat piece of land to this house that I have now, which is actually a home with like with heart and love has been like a metaphoric journey for me. now when I see that I was able to do that, there's nothing stopping me from wanting to build anything, even if it started with a flat piece of land. I built my business and my whole consulting.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (32:02)
Mm -hmm.

Cindy (32:14)
gig work. I built it around that as well, knowing that, hey, I could do really well or not do really well, but I'm going to be okay because I'm always going to bet on myself.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (32:24)
I love that I'm always going to bet on myself and the concept of a home. I think when divorce happen and for myself too the question is, where is home? Where is home? as I work with my clients on their journey, and this journey is really your homecoming. you are making that happen yourself. with a vision with some goals with some clarity, you don't always get that right away.

Cindy (32:29)
Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (32:50)
But it's so important if you wanted to not get stuck in that just merely surviving space and you'd have to take some risks, so to speak, calculated risks. And I love that. Thank you for sharing. we talked about logistic side of things and envisioning self, actually two key aspects. what about mental well -being? Because

Cindy (32:58)
Yeah. That's right.

Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (33:15)
now and people are going to say, it's easy for you to say, I just made that decision. But it can be easy when you got let go from your job. That's hard on our sense of self, right? Just got to some degree, got let go from your marriage, you know, and, and then

Cindy (33:30)
It's a great actually.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (33:34)
And on top of that, you are fired from our marriage. Thank you very much. And there is no compensation as well. you have to pay lawyers to deal with that. on top of that, you have to sell your matrimonial home, right? Your second home you were going to retire into. I think most importantly is that vision you had for your next 20, 30 years because your kids were

Cindy (33:37)
Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (34:00)
growing up, right, you were about to downsize or really relaxing to this life and didn't happen. tell me about the mental shifts mental well being. How did you get yourself from that place of maybe depression or shock to this place of I'm betting on myself.

Cindy (34:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think for me and I'm trying to reflect back on that as well too, there was probably moments where I would and I think this is normal. I mean you have those moments where you're very happy with your

progress in what you're working towards. then those other moments where it feels really hard and you start to feel bitter because you're like, why am I in this now? Right? Like if I, and a lot of the bitterness came around the fact that why am I?

putting together a parachute as I'm being ejected out of the airplane. How come I didn't have a better advantage, right? when the bitterness would set in sometimes, it was more like, wow, he had such a great plan. He already knew what he wanted. He already prepared. He already had plan B, C, D, E, and I had none of that. I just felt really...

unsteady and so then it felt harder and harder and you're right those were the moments where it like mentally to try and push through that was really tough because you just want to hang on to that bitterness and where it wasn't serving me was it affected my relationship with my kids because I'm here busy trying to build an empire build my

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (35:31)
Mm.

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Cindy (35:36)
I lost sight of the fact that I also needed to rebuild my children, their souls, their heart. And I thought that building a home was the most important. We just try to get back to, because we had a house before, let's get back into a house, right? I thought that all of

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (35:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cindy (35:53)
So in my mind, I just thought if I just replace everything that was pulled away from us, that we would be okay again. But I had to stop and realize that my children were experiencing the divorce and the breakup of the family. They were experiencing it differently with different emotions, with different fears. I didn't take the time to acknowledge that.

So I do commend you when you talk about how much you're spending time with your kids, working through that and recognizing and acknowledging their emotions and their journey, which was something I didn't have time to do. And so that's not at the beginning, no.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (36:26)
Not at the very beginning though. Yeah. No. So I just wanted to jump in. Thank you for sharing that. whoever, if you are in the thick of the divorce journey, right? Whether you, which side you are, because it's, it can't be easy on either side of whether you are the one who decides to leave or maybe you commonly agreed and maybe you were left quote unquote, that initial stage. And for everyone, it's different.

Cindy (36:48)
Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (36:54)
because we all receive information, digest information different. I didn't have any capacity to really pay attention to my son's well -being at the time I was pregnant. for me, it's even long after having a newborn, the sleepless nights, just like getting into that routine. I would say for me, it was a well, a year and a half maybe, while I was still dealing with the divorce things.

Cindy (36:58)
Thank you.

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (37:22)
And it's okay when you're in that state, you can't be a hundred percent tendering everyone because you need to feel safe with yourself. You need to find your safety net somehow. You need to grapple on something, whatever that is. And it's okay. your kids will be okay. as we were me too, cause I was like, my top priority is keeping the kids in the Matri monial home. I was like fighting so hard on that.

Cindy (37:35)
Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (37:49)
and trying to fill this void of like, my God, we can't lose more. Right. We already lost so much. So it's totally okay that you're not tendering everything. It's something I wanted to put it out there because you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself first before you can help your kids. And that's key.

Cindy (37:54)
Yes.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, and I think that's what I was doing Yeah, and you're right you're one person trying to do so much and trying to keep everything together and at the same time The way that I look at it is like, okay So here is somebody that showed up and announced that he didn't want to be a part of this anymore he just leaves so I'm left with You know when you pull apart the family that I'm left with pulling it back together you pull apart who I am

I'm no longer identified as your wife, relationship and that gets pulled apart and you have to rebuild that again. Your children are absolutely affected by it emotionally and in many different ways, right? That got pulled apart and you kind of put that back together again. Our relationship, my relationship with my children just got so strained that again got ripped apart.

and I had to rebuild that. So everything had to be rebuilt and you're trying to rebuild too many things at the same time as one person? Yes. Yeah. So this is, you know, if we're using that airplane metaphor, you are trying to put together every single airplane part while putting together parachutes for you and everybody else that's falling out of the plane. it was maddening and I don't even know how I sustained it.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (39:06)
at the same time. Yeah.

Cindy (39:23)
I only saw myself going through it, but probably about a couple years later, I was gaining perspective from other people that watched me, in this mess, navigating it, and the way that they projected it, they saw a lot of people felt bad for me.

which I had no idea they did. A lot of people thought she was working so hard, which I didn't feel like I was because I was in it at the time. everybody kind of thought, wow, she's not enjoying her life. She's just working so hard. She's building everything. they were concerned for me. I had no idea I was projecting that and that they were seeing this in me. Meanwhile, I thought I was thriving. One of the things that I really,

I really hung on to was the sense of freedom that I got by being a single person making single decisions. I don't know how to express it other than there is a word called liberosis and it's just this sense of being untethered. You're not locked down by anything and you're your own boss and that was the best feeling ever when I started to acknowledge that.

From this day forth, decisions that I make are all going to be because it's what I want. So how do I want to see my life play out? What do I want to do? And I would test out some things. Like one day I decided to have popcorn for dinner. And that was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most... It was the most

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (40:48)
Liberation. Who cares?

Cindy (40:57)
You know what I want for dinner? I'm going to have a bag of popcorn and that's enough. I know it sounds so bizarre, but it was testing these small senses of freedom, baby steps. Cause it's like, who is going to come and tell me I can't have popcorn for dinner? Right? Who? No one. I'm my own boss. Right? And so when it started with that decision on popcorn, it kind of moved to, I don't have to go back to working for a corporate if I don't want to. Maybe I don't need to work. Maybe I will think about what I want to be when I grow up.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (41:06)
Baby of self too.

Yeah, yeah.

Ooh.

Cindy (41:25)
Maybe I'll take the whole summer off and no one was there to tell me no. I didn't have a spouse that was there to put pressure on me to make a decision based on what they wanted and that was very liberating.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (41:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you talk about this going through divorce coupled with all of the other losses, your house, your bank account, your parenting relationship.

Cindy (41:49)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (41:50)
comes with this loss of identity because it's always in John and Mary, right? Together, right? I am someone's wife, right? And that identity got just broken down, whether you want it or not. But it's also a phenomenal opportunity for us to find ourself again without all that attachment, without an employee in your case, right? Someone's wife or

Cindy (41:55)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, my gosh, I'm sorry.

Yes.

Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (42:20)
a B .C .D .E. or a wife who always have a delicious meal prepared, when her husband walks into the door, whatever that is. it's a precious opportunity because for any healthy and thriving intimate relationship, we have to know who we are first before we can build that intimate partnership together. there is so much power coming from that. And even just

Cindy (42:21)
Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (42:47)
time being with myself, right? At the beginning, you don't get used to it because it's like, I remember when I went to the grocery store, even when he moved out very shortly after he announced I don't want to be married anymore. I still would see items. I was like, he would like that. it's a habit. I would buy that. It took me a long time. It was like, no, I don't.

Cindy (42:50)
Yes.

just.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (43:09)
I do not like that food, my kids don't eat that, I do not have to buy that. Small things, all of your pattern, behavior, right? You always think about the other person, it took some time. But once you do that, and then now I have all this space, I don't have to plan, I can make all the decisions just by myself, where to travel, what to do, the kids' schedule, but also how do I spend my morning? If I wanted to...

Cindy (43:16)
Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (43:35)
meditate journal. I have no one bothers me at the nighttime as well. There is so much freedom and liberation and power in that. But a lot of people I found is that there is so much fear of being alone. Yet at the same time, clients tell me that I never felt so alone.

Cindy (43:42)
Thank you.

because they did this.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (44:01)
in my marriage. wow, think about it. How contradictory we can be. So the work is always finding out who you are and the life you want to live first and then to see, can the other party compliment or align with that? So I went a little bit on that. Just, the beauty and power through this journey. I'm not trying to beautify all the divorces like

Cindy (44:09)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (44:26)
empowering and great. I mean, of course it's tough, but again, I think back to our beginning to say you can make a choice. Your choice is not to control how the other person behave, how the other person love or not love you, how they leave the marriage, right? with grace or maturity or acting to be honest, like a giant baby or a big, ass sometimes and pardon of my language.

Cindy (44:33)
Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (44:50)
but we can control how we behave and how we respond and the work we wanted to do on ourselves.

Cindy (44:57)
Yes.

I mean, it is journey. The journey is very difficult to navigate and it's challenging. You do have your ups and downs. It's not a smooth ride. But where you are empowered is you have the ability to choose how you're going to go through it. where you're also empowered is that you actually have a lot of freedom, again, to make that choice and that decision.

you're right, when it comes to being in a relationship or not being in a relationship, people fear the same thing, whether they are married or single, is that we fear being alone, right? Being alone because we don't have...

We don't have anything concrete to identify with. It's so like you said, when you're in a relationship, I am so and so's partner, girlfriend, wife, right? When you are working for an organization, this is the company I work for. Whenever you ask a person, tell me about yourself, they always tell you where they work, what is your occupation? I got so stuck in that same summer after I got divorced and then I was fired.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (45:54)
What do you do? Yeah,

Cindy (46:03)
And I remember bumping into somebody on a walk during COVID and it was in the neighborhood and they said, are you new in this neighborhoods? We chatted a little bit, you know, social distance chatting and it was nice to see another human being. he asked me, so he said, so what do you do? So what do you do? I was stumped because I thought to myself,

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (46:30)
I'm going go ahead and close the video.

my own boss.

Cindy (46:26)
Hmm. I used to be able to tell people what to do. in honesty, I just, I answered honestly and I said, I'm actually not doing anything right now, which sounded so boring. I thought to myself, this is so boring. Like, how can you not be doing anything right now? You used to work and you did this, you did that. And now you don't. So I had to reframe my identity and it was no longer who I work for. it was no longer who I was married to or who I was partnered with.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (46:34)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Cindy (46:53)
But my true identity was, who am I? And you're right, what do I do? So that was a different thing.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (46:56)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

And getting, getting in touch with that lost self takes time to figure out because we've been like on this grind for so long. I love what you share about this huge identity transition and really reinventing ourselves again. so you talked about you had this conversation with your 10 years later yourself on the patio, right?

Cindy (47:06)
Yes.

Yeah. Teach yourself me. Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (47:27)
now looking back, what would you tell yourself when you at the time four years ago, or maybe even three years ago, because we all know this entangling, uncoupling takes time. What would you tell her at the time? What, a dvice would you give her? Or what would you say to her?

Cindy (47:36)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

if I was to be able to go back into that moment of talking to me, sitting on the porch, I would have given the same advice. I would have said to myself then that you're going to be just fine. I'm going to bet on you because I know that this is hard, but you're going to come out the other side of champion.

because I was betting on myself and I was believing in myself. I think that's the part that we miss a lot of. We depend on other people believing in us, that we forget to believe in ourselves. And I think that takes you further. I would have given myself that same advice. I would have also maybe added, you're not going to believe me when I tell you this now, because three years, four years doesn't sound like a lot of time, but I...

would tell myself that you're never going to be the same person year over year and you're going to keep improving yourself. Right. And so that I see is true now because every time I look back, I see that

I'm a different person than I was last year and the year before. I'm absolutely a different person than when I first set out on this divorce journey in 2020. But even like a year ago when I said, when I look back and people say, wow, you used to be married to this person. You used to be this wife, this mother living in this house. To me, it felt like it was a very strange Netflix series that I was watching because I can't identify with that person. I cannot identify with who I was in that marriage.

anymore because I've updated my version over the last four years that you can't even recognize that I was that same person. The core of who I was was never fully expressed in the marriage. So when we talk about being lonely, I would say that my ex -husband only knew

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (49:20)
Mm -hmm.

Cindy (49:29)
less, he probably knew like maybe 40 % of who I am. The other 60 % were suppressed, they were compromised, they were sacrificed, they were just silenced. that's the other thing too, is that when I discovered Liberosis, which is eating popcorn for dinner if I feel like it, taking a shower at 2 a.m. if I feel like it, the other thing, the other thing that I realized too was that

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (49:29)
Mm -hmm.

Hmm

Cindy (49:52)
I didn't have to be that same person and I could find my voice again. And that was very, yeah, I found my voice. Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (49:58)
I was going to say you stole my line. You found your, you weren't rediscovering your voice and you were so brave to, embrace that and just let everything unfold. that's a question that I always ask, my clients is who were you not be able to be in your marriage.

Cindy (50:15)
Thank you.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (50:20)
What couldn't you express in your marriage? And what would you like to express now? So that's very empowering. we chat ted yesterday. Let's talk about the iPhone upgrade. we talked about because the key of a reinvention is that your focus your intention on your own development. It's so key in every area. But when we think about in the corporate world, we think about

Cindy (50:25)
Yes.

gonna medical.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (50:44)
I'm going to learn Excel or I'm going to learn a new technology or tool, but it's far beyond that. I don't know, what's the iPhone out there now. It's like iPhone upgrades every

Cindy (50:54)
Yeah, I think, is going to be launched. They launch a new version every year. So I think for anybody that's joining us.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (50:59)
Okay. Yeah. iPhone. Yeah. You know what I should call, Apple is like, Hey, would you like to sponsor my podcast? Because we mentioned to you

Cindy (51:09)
So this is no way endorsing iPhone, but for sure yesterday, when I had this conversation and it just organically grew that way where I said that, cause you were checking in on me and I thought that was really great. Like where are you?

it forces me to actually sit down and reflect, right? Because we get so busy that we don't stop to think about what it is that we're going through. I don't want to be in that rut. So I'm thankful for friends that remind me and check in on me because then I stop and I think there are things that I want to accomplish. There are goals that I want. I don't want to forget about them. I don't want to be stuck in a marriage to myself where I don't do things that bring out the best in me.

one of the metaphors that I mentioned was, my goodness, like we are so locked into updating everything. when my laptop tells me that I have a software update, my goodness, I'm updating it. Because heaven forbid that I can't get into Zoom meeting next time because I didn't update. And my phone, same thing. There is iPhone updates. Like all the software updates, we take time to improve.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (52:04)
You

Cindy (52:13)
all these devices around us because we want to make our lives easier. Yeah, gadgets, but we don't think about updating our version, right? that's why I made a joke where I said, Lisa, I know that I'm embarking on more changes and I know that by the end of this year, I'm going to be very different than when I started off in January, 2024. And even now halfway.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (52:15)
Gadgets.

Yeah, Cindy 5 .0.

Cindy (52:36)
Yeah, so I said, It'd be five years since I was divorced. I believe every single year I've been a different version of myself because I want to evolve and I want to keep changing and be better. I have goals. every year I'm launching a new version of myself now, and I don't want people to give up on that.

you're always excited for the next iPhone version to come out, but I want people to be excited for the next version of you coming out, right? So for me, I am working towards my release in 2025. So it will be in the 5 .0. Right now, I think it's in the 5 .6. I'm halfway through this year, but I will be reaching that and I embrace it. I don't have the same...

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (53:00)
Hmm.

we're in such a disposable culture, right? So, my God, there's a new iPhone, like we go purchase that or I have kids, they're always in this like new shining things. But we rarely think about, my God, where do I need to upgrade, whether it's skill or emotional management or just some spiritual

Cindy (53:23)
Yes.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Beer's good. Yes. Yep.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (53:41)
pursue whatever that is, it's so important or maybe physical, right? And going to the gym, you don't have to, I'm just saying that's the only way is because we are a holistic being. And if we want to reinvent ourselves and new identity, we have to look at ourselves from different aspects, Financial management as well. And in my coaching program, we actually this month we're talking, focusing on that. so many people don't because a lot of our fear and stress actually comes from.

Cindy (53:49)
easy

Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (54:10)
money and whether we want to face it or not. thank you for saying that. everyone started to upgrade your, software and hardware of yourself. we've been chatting a lot. I have a last question let's talk about love

how did this divorce journey impact your perception or perspective about love?

Cindy (54:33)
Hmm, okay, well, I have not been When we talk about divorce people usually get very bitter they get very jaded and they're like, my goodness I don't believe in love anymore what I discovered and I don't really label love the same way so I see that love comes in variations and how we

can love, whether it's loving your family members, your friends, loving, a partner, a husband, a boyfriend. I see that there are variations of love that can be expressed because that's one thing I discovered myself is like in my heart, I know that I have the capacity to love and I have gone through a broken heart with the divorce and I have gone through a broken heart with, having the strain

of the relationship with my children. I've gone through broken heart of friends and other family members that just disappear and move out of your life because of the divorce. It impacts other people in different ways too. But it hasn't changed. So I know that my heart is always bursting with love. And this is something that I also thought that for myself, it was a choice and not everybody wants to choose that. I was not interested in getting into a relationship.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (55:36)
Mm -hmm.

Cindy (55:52)
anytime soon after my divorce and people thought it's because I gave up on love and that I was jaded and I was and I had a really bad Outlook on it and I didn't believe in it, but that's not what it was. I wanted to spend time loving myself more and I wanted to make sure that when I do get into relationship This was my thought initially that it was going to be more fulfilling and I wanted to know what I was getting out of that So I had these ideas about love in the future and I wasn't rushing into

into it. But I also felt I didn't want to do the same thing I did before, which was I was in a marriage for a long time and I didn't want to go back to being in a relationship again. So I didn't want to do the same thing. So when we talk about updating myself, my 1 .0, my 2 .0 version was me, but not necessarily in a relationship. I did explore a relationship for a year.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (56:30)
Hmm.

Cindy (56:46)
that only proved to me that I do have the capacity to love and falling in love is awesome guys. I think that I can do it again over and over. now when I think of variations of love, I don't create those criterias anymore. I don't create a checklist where I say, I don't have a boyfriend app where I say, if you meet all these requirements, now you can be in a long term relationship with me. I look at it as people are going to come and go in my life. I don't know how long they're going to be there. I don't know

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (56:58)
Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Cindy (57:12)
how much time I have to love them. But I'll be thankful that when people come into my life and they bring love, no matter what that time span looks like, I will look at it as a gift and some gifts I just don't question. So that's where I sit with that topic.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (57:27)
I love it. I can totally relate. It's the how multi -dimensional love can be. One is two is when you get in touch with yourself you are surprised your capacity to love is so vast. I mean, I'm not talking just about intimate relationship love, but to everyone.

Cindy (57:35)
Yes.

Yes.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (57:51)
around you, your kids and it's crazy. last point, is that again, we have so much fear of being alone, right? And when you get out of a relationship, there is this desire or inclination my God, if I go be with someone else, things would be better, right? I really commend you and also

A lot of people is that spending time with yourself first because you just ended some kind of relationship, whether you were married for five or 10 years and with a significant person, it's so important to figure out what you want and who you are. it takes some time and that's okay. the last part I wanted to say,

Cindy (58:33)
Hmm.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (58:37)
And maybe that's another episode we can do is that if you decide to get on an online dating app or something, because that's the, I know Lisa Gu's Netflix of online dating. so do not, do not open the first line with what do you do? That's the most boring thing. gentlemen,

Cindy (58:42)
We're gonna turn this into Netflix series. I know.

I'm sorry.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (59:01)
Like you could say out there, say something interesting to help you stand out. Let's stop being boring. joking aside, my God, online dating. that's like definitely another episode. before we wrap up, is there anything that I didn't ask but you feel like it's so important to share, whether it's any suggestions to people who are in the thick of it, or maybe they finished their legal process of the divorce but still don't feel like...

They are themselves yet. They're still navigating that. Any advice or suggestion or just thoughts to share?

Cindy (59:30)
No.

No.

I think something that I've learned going through this is that many people will.

want to help you solve your problem. People that care about you, people that see you struggling, they want to solve your problem. And for you, it's your own personal journey. yes, people can be there to lend support and people can be there to lend ideas. But I don't think we should ever feel pressured to listen to advice. I don't think we should ever feel pressured to not acknowledge the feelings that we have. for example, the toxic positivity

that people will try to inject because they're trying to be helpful. When you're feeling down, valid. Allow yourself those moments to acknowledge it. I can say that there is no playbook for this, There's no book that's gonna help you get through this other than yourself, in those moments, give yourself permission to feel sadness, bitterness, anger, happiness, fear.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:00:30)
Whatever. Yep.

Cindy (1:00:32)
Give yourself permission to be all of that and don't deny yourself that because this is your journey and you will go through it and come through it very different than anyone else.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:00:44)
Yeah, your journey will be different and only you know it and it's your internal experience that matters not external reflection or whatever. I really love that. also, it's a time if you can get some external support who are not connected with you somehow, some neutral support where there's a coach or counselor, it can be so helpful because

Cindy (1:00:49)
Okay.

Yeah, know.

Yep.

Yes, people who are not invested in you. I agree.

Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:01:12)
You want someone who are detached from everything right and especially for someone who's been through this journey, but yeah self love

Cindy (1:01:16)
Yeah, and take care of yourself. of yourself. Yes, I was just going to say people will laugh about how much I love myself and this is why it's hard to be in a relationship with me, I think, because you're competing with me.

know. You want to do it?

myself too much and I take care of myself to the point where if we talk about my personal trainer for my body I have my own therapist for my mind and I work through a lot of things spiritually and I learn from people philosophy wise so I'm gaining wisdom that way and I love it I embrace all of those all of those moments and it was okay to not always be perfect

I remember people telling me, cheer up, cheer up. Like, how do I cheer up? Is there a way to cheer up?

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:01:58)
Yeah. And another thing that I hear a lot of my clients, family and friends is like, my God, it's been X amount of years. You should be okay now. Like just get over, get over it. Or, he's already married or whatever that is. what I always say to encourage these people is like, it's your healing journey and no one can rush you.

Cindy (1:02:03)
Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

I

It is. No?

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:02:21)
advice and to tell you when to be okay. Like these people, we need to set some boundaries to be like, no thank you. that's some work too. But you're right, it's your journey and you're in it and you know it, just like a marriage, right? From the outsider, you could be the perfect couple, right? You got perfect jobs, vacation home, vacationing, and two beautiful kids, the Canadian dream per se.

Cindy (1:02:25)
that's correct.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:02:47)
And internally, you're like, damn, we're just on autopilot. What's going on, right? So it's the same thing that your healing journey is. Thank you for bringing that to the front. Like only you know it.

Cindy (1:02:54)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. And I just want to say to people that it's okay to have negative feelings about this. It doesn't mean that you're not healing from it. To allow yourself those negative feelings out is acknowledging that you are actually experiencing everything holistically. I was tired of people telling me to, you know, you're better than that. Take the high road. Like be the better person. If I was spewing bitterness. there were times where I thought,

Why do I have to be the better person?

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:03:27)


Cindy (1:03:35)
Mm -hmm.

Peace out.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:03:50)
And we don't know whatever that person, the decision they made at the beginning, we say, we don't know, right? They have their internal experience. if we've lived their life, maybe we would make the same same decision. there is no need to judge anyone in this, but just really focusing on ourselves and what matters to us. And also you talked about in this journey that

Cindy (1:03:55)
Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:04:15)
less and less we're seeking for external validation, which is very hard because we were brought up this way, right? your job defines you, your marriage defines you, your parents or whatever your car, your phone. the more we can remove this, the more we can give less power to this external validation and seeking internal validation, your real growth will come out of it. And that's

Cindy (1:04:20)
Yes.

there's your...

Thank you.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:04:40)
real power, real powerful.

Cindy (1:04:40)
Yeah. It is. Yeah. No, that was.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:04:43)
Okay, on that note, on that high note, where can people find you, Cindy?

Cindy (1:04:49)
I am on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. I am not as savvy. Yeah, at my LinkedIn profile. And you can always message me through LinkedIn as well. It's all open to anybody that wants to contact me or connect with me. I'm not as, social media savvy, and I don't do a lot of posting that way, which is fine, but I...

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:04:53)
I'll add your LinkedIn profile.

Pretty savvy, I'd say.

Cindy (1:05:11)
I put it on through my Linked In So yeah, please connect with me. I would be more than happy to share a conversation.

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:05:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cindy teaches at Conestoga College, but she also has her own consulting firm. She does a lot of corporate training on corporate culture or communication leadership.

Cindy (1:05:27)
leadership, leadership on gateways. Yeah, workplace culture. For me, it's all about how people treat each other, how people work together.

and that harmonization is really important for me. you can probably see I pull that into relationships. I pull that into people that I meet. honestly, it just comes from a place where I just, I feel like I have a huge capacity to love. So I mean, connecting with Lisa came from a place of love and connecting with anybody that I meet now does come initially from that place where I look at them and I think, who are you? What's your story? And what can you teach me?

Lisa Gu, Divorce Coach (1:06:01)
not what you do. What do you do? Nope. thank you so much, Cindy, for sharing so openly and accepting my invitation to come here to sharing all of your wisdom and experience and so real. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. And we reach out anytime to me or Cindy and we will see you next time. Bye.

Cindy (1:06:10)
Yeah.

Yeah. Thank