#11 Why Your Kids Might Need Therapy During Divorce with Josh Rinz

In this conversation, Lisa and Josh Rinz discuss the complexities of navigating divorce as a parent, particularly focusing on the emotional well-being of children. They explore various types of therapy suitable for children, signs of distress to look for, and the importance of communication and honesty during this challenging time. Josh emphasises the need for consistency and stability in children's lives, the misconceptions they may have about divorce, and how parents can effectively support their children through therapy. The discussion also touches on the importance of finding the right therapist and the role of community support in helping families cope with the changes brought about by divorce.

P.S. Follow Josh on Instagram @joshrinztherapy for more wisdom on parenting, mental health, and neurodivergence.

P.P.S. My group coaching program, Chaos to Clarity, covers practical strategies to support your children and stepchildren during divorce. Sign up by April 18 for your first month at 50% off!

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Transcript

Lisa (00:00)

As we go through divorce and navigating this chaos, many parents have the concern about their kids' well-being going through a divorce whether their kids will be okay. So a lot of clients ask me Should they start their kids for therapy and when? So I thought, is there a better person to ask these questions other than Josh?

who is my son's therapist and who has been truly a godsend during this time. So welcome Josh.

Josh Rinz (00:28)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Lisa (00:30)

Yeah, we're going to dive into some details about therapy for children today, specifically during divorce time. But also I'll be sharing a real life experience working with Josh, So Josh is a therapist and neurodivergence clinic specialist.

renowned for his expertise in therapy and parenting for families and individuals who are neurodivergent. You may have heard autism spectrum disorder and ADHD. His passion for this field is deeply personal as he's also the parent of two young adults who are neurodivergent. And yourself also.

has ADHD and Josh has been amazing supporting my family as my son went through his ADHD diagnosis and continues to do so. Josh firmly believes in the inherent potential of every individual to lead a fulfilling life. So super excited to dive into this very important topic. Josh, I think we can talk about what types of therapy are specifically

Josh Rinz (01:12)

Yes.

Lisa (01:34)

designed for children.

Josh Rinz (01:35)

Right, so there's a number of therapies depending on the age of the child. When we're talking about a younger child, we're talking about play-based therapies. So play therapies, maybe animal assisted therapy or even music therapy or art therapy, something that's very much play-based because we know that children learn and process and understand their world through play. So we want to make sure that any therapeutic services they're getting as a young child are kind of play-centered.

As we get older, we want to bring in maybe a little more of that talk therapy, that cognitive behavioral therapy. So talking about our feelings and learning to talk about our feelings and learning some strategies to manage and sometimes even just to name the feelings that we're having. Moving in is developmentally more appropriate. And then as they get a little older, maybe bringing in some family therapy or helping navigate, the relationship between the parents and the children

as they develop. But really when we're talking about kids, we want to make sure that it's really grounded in play as much as it can be.

Lisa (02:34)

Yeah, different ages have different needs and different understanding one of my biggest concern at the time, I knew my son needed support as we went through this huge transition and very traumatic. There was an amendment and just very sudden. So big question I had was

When is the right time or age to consider therapy for a child?

Josh Rinz (02:56)

I don't know that there is a right age. think that you can start as soon as you're seeing the signs of distress in your child is what I would say is that's when it's time to start. A young child, even a very young child can benefit from play therapy or these kinds of things. So I think that if they're able to interact and play and do these things, they're absolutely could be the right age for therapy. it's really you want to

Lisa (03:18)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh Rinz (03:19)

If you're noticing a change in your child, if you're noticing that your child's struggling in some ways, it's generally an idea that it might be a good time to seek out some services.

Lisa (03:27)

So as we're talking about this, what are some behaviors kids usually demonstrate when they're in distress, especially during times of change like divorce

Josh Rinz (03:38)

Right, right. Well, divorce shakes up their sense of security. So their whole way that the world is put together in a child is kind of based around the family. And so it shakes that really to the core in a lot of ways. But we can see the full range of responses depending on the kids. Some kids get really anxious. Some kids get really withdrawn and kind of turn into themselves. Or some kids will get very clingy with the parent. Sometimes we'll see kids acting out or they'll show defiance or anger.

Lisa (03:45)

Mm.

Josh Rinz (04:04)

Just trying to express all of these feelings they have. Younger kids, sometimes they'll regress. We'll see them go back to behaviors that they did when they were much younger. they'll sometimes even tantrums or bedwetting will come back into the picture when they're really processing those feelings. Older kids are gonna struggle a little bit more maybe with the mood swings or the social impact or the school impact, the impact on their grades or the homework.

or school behavior, neurodivergent kids especially are going to have a harder time with the unpredictability, the changes of it, the overload, the newness. We're talking about a lot of change and a lot of new things that they're going to have to deal with. And that can be really overwhelming when they're already overwhelmed by what they're feeling. So we can see a lot across the board feelings being expressed a lot of different ways.

Lisa (04:39)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm. And if as parents, we pay attention, and most parents do, and it's not hard to detect And as you talk about regression, I remember my son, and he was already five and a half. All so my divorce happened really sudden, and there is one parent moving out, out of nowhere, and have very limited contact. So I remember...

shortly after my ex-partner moved out. he was five and a half and he was diaper trained I don't know, two and and a half. And he started to wet like his bed at nighttime. oh my God, it's so heartbreaking to see that, you know, and then his hair start to fall.

Josh Rinz (05:32)

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (05:41)

Yeah, so really different behaviors and then a tantrum and also because they're processing something they cannot pinpoint, it just come like manifest and outward, right? I just want to touch base on my own experience, like determine whether your kid is ready or not. I remember before reaching out to you, I reached out to another therapist from my work support program.

Josh Rinz (05:49)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (06:05)

And the therapist, yeah, it's usually around 10 or they'll be ready. At the time, my son was six and a half or something, but intuitively, and I thought, no, he is ready. Like he needs something now. Another concern I had was at the time it was COVID, I really didn't want him to have virtual sessions because he was too little for that. But the minute we kind of opened up, I reached out to

your team and we got connected. I want to encourage parents really trust your intuition whether your kid is ready or not for this. And worst case scenario, you can try, right? And maybe find out they're not ready. So it's really there is no broad answers like, yeah, every kid would be ready at 10 or so really trust your intuition during this time.

How about frequency? So how frequent should a child attend therapy and does that change over time?

Josh Rinz (07:01)

It can absolutely change over time. I'm a big fan of therapy should be making your life better, not more difficult. sometimes therapy is, if we're talking about weekly therapy, that can be too much, right? It can be too much for the family. And so we have to take that into consideration. And I would say when we're starting at the beginning, not really going longer than about two weeks is what I recommend, but

Lisa (07:16)

Hmm.

Josh Rinz (07:26)

As we work and as we build the tools and things and the child develops the tools to cope and process on their own, we start kind of spacing them out until they're more of kind of maintenance sessions or tuneups or when there's a specific struggle that we need to address. That's kind of the goal is to reduce the frequency of sessions.

Lisa (07:43)

I remember you told me consistency is key, right? Whether it's every two week, every three week and one month, maybe two, too long especially for young children or for anyone. I think at the beginning, especially when they need a little bit support, but consistency is you and your child talk about this. We're going to do this. We're to do this every three weeks or something. So stick to that. Very important.

Josh Rinz (07:46)

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (08:05)

I think one thing you really helped as you were doing play therapy with my son, but you were also helping me understand the struggles he had more clearly. I mean, I knew he was struggling. I just couldn't pinpoint.

So that's also a huge benefit for parents as well. maybe you yourself are in therapy, but then you have a different support supporting your children, but also supporting yourself. I want to talk about fear because you helped me to understand my son's fear better, I think more tangibly. So what are some of the biggest fears or misconceptions children have?

about divorce, you talked about it really shook their core because the family structure, They believe in, they had the safety and security. Now it's really been taken away. So what are some fears and some misconceptions they might have in their mind?

Josh Rinz (08:59)

Right, I think a lot of times it's what we go to automatically, that their fear that they've caused the divorce, that they have done something, their behavior played some role, something they did or they didn't do, played a role in the divorce. And I think that that's probably the most common fear and misconception that we see, especially with younger kids, is that they played some role, that this is something to do with them.

Or that it means that they have to choose sides in some cases. Like some kids will feel like they have to choose sides. Older kids especially can fall into that pattern of feeling like they have to kind of pick one parent and make the other parent the bad guy.

the kids often will feel that they have a lot more control or a role or some part in this divorce that's really between two adults, but they feel like they're playing a role in it somehow. And they often take the divorce as indication that they're coming up short in some capacity. They're not being a good enough kid. They're not being right. Right. And that's, think the number one thing that we see with kids.

Lisa (09:52)

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not good enough. Yeah.

Josh Rinz (10:00)

is that they think that they're the reason.

Lisa (10:02)

Yeah, and they're responsible for the outcome of this breakdown or this breakup, which is so hard to see because, it really has, nothing to do with them. is there anything parents can say or do to give them some assurance that

it has nothing to do with them

Josh Rinz (10:23)

think that you can, there's, the certain phrases, of always of saying the things like, this isn't your fault, making sure that you say it, you don't just assume that the child is understanding that, that you really spell it out, that this is not your fault. And even if it feels that way inside for you, it's not your fault. And reassuring them of the love doesn't change, Your parents still love you.

Lisa (10:33)

They know.

Josh Rinz (10:46)

Kind of focusing on the things that will stay the same, You're gonna stay here in your home if that's the case. Or, you you're gonna stay in your same school if that's the case. Or whatever the parts are that are going to stay the same. Really emphasizing those pieces of stability and security that are staying the same, if both parents, if they're lucky enough to be able to have both parents staying in the pictures, emphasize.

Lisa (10:51)

Mmm.

Josh Rinz (11:09)

We're still your parents, even though we're not married, right? That doesn't change our relationship with you, it just changes our relationship with each other. We're not getting divorced from being your parents, we're getting divorced from being married to each other. And if that's not the case, then really kind of explaining, look, one parent isn't present anymore, and that isn't your fault. That has to do...

with whatever the reasons are that you can sort out in your own family, but really, again, emphasizing that this is something that's not happening.

Lisa (11:35)

I think it's so hard, so hard to have that. But it's important to verbalize it, first of all. it's hard because as a parent, going through a divorce, sometimes you yourself can pinpoint why this happened. When you're so confused and you're still sending that message, it's very hard. So I mean, the only way to do it is repetition.

It's hard in a way that,

saying it is one thing, believing it is another. I remember I kept telling my son at the time, I was pregnant, another change, right? For him, like he's going to have another sibling. That's another huge change. I kept saying, we love you. It has nothing to do with you, but you can see in his eyes and like he's not believing it. He's not. And so,

Josh Rinz (12:04)

Absolutely.

Right, right, right.

Lisa (12:25)

So what do we do? what, as parents, how can we further give our children that sense of security and assurance, it's not you? Is there any way?

Josh Rinz (12:36)

I think some of it is unfortunately just the time piece that they have to settle into the newness of it. And then they get used to things and they do understand a little bit that like, okay, everyone is still here. I am still being taken care of. I'm still going to karate practice. I'm still going to school. I'm still seeing my friends, all the things in their life that are important for them are still happening and things might be different.

Lisa (12:40)

Thank you.

Josh Rinz (13:02)

some parents, we might have two houses now, or, maybe both parents had to move because of the circumstances. there's a lot of things that can happen there, but just kind of allowing, knowing that there's going to be a certain period of chaos, right? That there's gonna be a certain period of unsettledness and you can do everything right. You can supply all the structure and all the comfort and...

they still might not believe you, but you're doing all the things right and you're doing everything you can to kind of minimize the impact and that's really what you can do.

Lisa (13:31)

Yeah, Minimize the impact is really, any kind of fear in life, we can't eliminate it, right? We can just acknowledge it and allow it and to be aware of it and co-exist with it. And you're absolutely right. This is no different than any other fear we have. It's just hard because seeing our kids going through it, While ourselves have so much waves

going through ourselves and adapting to the changes too. Which you mentioned what I'm getting from is consistency, You want to be consistent, yeah.

Josh Rinz (14:03)

and making sure as a parent that you are mindful of your own reactions, right? That if you're struggling with that guilt piece that all parents going through divorce struggle with to some capacity, that when your kid comes to you and expresses to you that maybe I feel like this is my fault, that you don't let your own emotional reaction to that color what's going on, Because they may be then less likely

to bring that to you again. If they're feeling like, I can't talk about that or I get that upset or I get mom upset, I can't let them know that I think this, they're gonna be less likely. So really being sure that you keep that door open for that honest communication, even if it's hitting all of those pieces of you as a parent that are activated, right? You have to find a way to kind of hold that space for your kids' experience to be a little bit separate from.

Lisa (14:43)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's another part is separating your role as a parent with as someone's ex partner. This is two pieces of the puzzle. And sometimes it's so hard to separate that as you go through it divorce.

Here's another question a lot of people ask is, how do they break the news to their children that they are separating or divorcing? So far as I know, the best advice is that if both parents can do it together on the same front with the same messaging to be consistent.

when in a lot of high conflict situations this might not be available.

Josh Rinz (15:29)

Right. Yeah, I think obviously, like you said, it's best, if both parents can appear to be united and appear to be calm and clear in their message, but this is not always the case. And so if that's the case, I'm a big fan of giving kids as much information as they can process developmentally and giving it to them very clearly.

Sometimes a good social story or a storybook around it can be really helpful with establishing the framework or helping you as a parent even to understand what's a developmentally appropriate message for my six-year-old versus my eight-year-old versus my 12-year-old versus my 16-year-old. because they're all different levels, they're all different levels of information. But I do think it's really important to make sure whatever the age that the kids have all

the developmentally appropriate facts because otherwise what we see is they make up stories, right? If they don't have the answers, they invent the answers and they do it with the best information that they have. But usually it's pretty hard on themselves. Usually that's when we get stuck in those narratives around self-blame or I wasn't good enough. It's because they don't have the full picture, all the information they need to really process a very adult thing.

Lisa (16:21)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah. And our brain is a story making machine. in those moments of fear and doubts, it's always usually self criticizing, self blaming. understandably our kids would do that too. I want to touch on parental conflict during this time and the impact on kids. I've seen many, many high conflict cases. I my advice is always,

Never, never talk about your divorce or bad mouth about your ex partner in front of a kid, regardless of the situation, regardless of how bad it is between you and your ex partner. But sometimes it's hard to do. And in reality, it doesn't always happen. in what ways that do children typically internalize parental conflict? And how bad is it?

Josh Rinz (17:25)

So kids are super sensitive. even if we're not saying even if we're not fighting in front of them, and they're never hearing the actual conflict, they're going to notice the change in tone or the vibe in the house or the way that we're talking to each other or that mom and dad aren't sitting down at dinner anymore, or they're going to notice a lot more of this than we give them credit for.

Lisa (17:39)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Rinz (17:47)

they're going to once again start making up these stories if they don't have the information. So I think that, as soon as it starts to become an issue, being really frank about it. mean, granted, we don't have to go through with children every aspect of our marital discussions. But once it's become to that point, I think letting them know, hey, mom and dad are working through some things they don't have anything to do with.

Lisa (17:59)

Details.

Josh Rinz (18:08)

but we're deciding kind of how we want to be as grown-ups together going forward and really letting them out. I I think that you have to be very careful as a parent. even the subtle things, The sigh, the eye roll, The other parent's late again and you give them the eye roll that like, of course they are. All of those little messages, right, are subconsciously, we can't help it. We're adults and frankly, we're adults who are...

generally not happy with this person because if we were happy with them, we would still be married. we're having to deal with this person that we really, really maybe don't like and maybe hate even. But then we're stuck in this position where we still have to keep this kind of almost mask, but still be authentic. It's hard, Lisa, it's hard. to be honest, most people slip up. Most people's kids...

Lisa (18:45)

Parrot. Yeah.

Josh Rinz (18:55)

They feel it, the kids see it, they're caught at a moment, but they don't, they think the kid isn't watching or they're exhausted and they can't, they can't do it anymore. the best thing to do in those situations is honestly address it and just really own it and say, you know what, like you really saw something there that I really wish you hadn't seen. I don't think it's fair for you to have to see my feelings about this. want you to really focus on your feelings about this. Really address it if it happens.

Lisa (19:13)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Rinz (19:20)

Obviously we don't want it to happen, this is not a perfect world. I think...

Lisa (19:25)

Yeah, and we are human and

as you go through, as an individual goes through divorce, like you said, we carry so much guilt and shame and resentment, just mixed feelings. First of all, if you have resources to get therapy and coaching for yourself or whatever other support, definitely get that. then authenticity and honesty is really the answer. I absolutely, like I yelled,

I lost myself and because you just couldn't pick yourself up on some days because it's just too much. if you do yell or you feel like you made a mistake and you always go to your child to say, hey, that was not fair or I wasn't in a good space and you can in age appropriate language to communicate with your kids because we're setting an example like, okay, this happened, but I'm owning what happened. And it's the best example we can.

Josh Rinz (19:54)

Right, right.

Lisa (20:16)

give our children and also I think some grace to ourselves as well as parent. It's like damn you're going through a hard time. It's okay to slip right. we can't fully protect our children really. We can't shield them from what's happening because it is happening. So maybe change the expectation.

Josh Rinz (20:25)

my!

Lisa (20:36)

of ourselves as a parent during this time as well. every time I have a vulnerable and honest conversation with my son, it's always surprised me of how much he actually knows and he can receive. when there is tension and conflict,

What are some well meaning as parent, but potentially harmful things parents could say or do during this time that they might think they're helping their kids, but they're actually negatively affecting them? Is there anything like don't do's that you would suggest?

Josh Rinz (21:08)

Right.

I would say the number one is don't say nothing will change. I find that that's the reassurance that parents always want to give their kids, right? Because we want to assure them we know the stability and safety is going. Nothing's going to change. Everything's going to be the same. And that's not the reality. The reality is a lot of things are going to change. And some might be positive, some might not be positive, some might be neutral. But a lot of things are going to change.

Lisa (21:16)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Josh Rinz (21:36)

you know, going into it saying like, nothing's gonna change, we're gonna keep everything. setting the bar too high, setting that unrealistic thing, rather than saying, maybe we don't know what's going to happen, but we're all going to get through it together. That's a more realistic, that's something you can offer, you can follow through, but saying nothing's gonna change and then having it change.

Lisa (21:43)

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Josh Rinz (21:57)

you're already when they're not trusting their situation and then they're further not right.

Lisa (22:01)

We're losing trust while

trying to help give them that peace of mind. But what really will give them the peace of mind or building the trust is honesty, is saying, don't know when you don't know. Which is super hard as a parent, right? You want to assure your kids like everything will be fine. You'll be fine, you're safe, right? So that's a balance. do you have any other phrases there?

Josh Rinz (22:24)

No,

no, I think that's great. think that that's my number one is don't say nothing is going to change because we all know that's not true.

Lisa (22:31)

Because there will be, yeah.

What about, Daddy and mommy loves you. in some cases, the parent may be, temporarily out of the kid's life or whatever reason, or sometimes permanently, or they don't see them very often in some cases, when you go through a divorce, there is this, conflict.

of how we expect the other party to show up as a parent. we ourselves don't believe in that the other parent actually loves the children or love them the way that we ourselves expect them to. Or sometimes because there's so much betrayal, abandonment wrapped in the situation, really it's hard for you yourself to see.

The other parent actually loves the kids. do you recommend that we still say as a parent who are spending a lot of time with the kid is like, Hey, daddy or mommy still loves you. You know, we love you the same. how do we approach that love part?

Josh Rinz (23:23)

I, that's a really tough one because while I firmly believe in reassuring a child that their value goes unchanged and that whether or not the other parent is parenting them correctly, they're still lovable and valuable in all of this. But there can be a danger in, doing the emotional labor for the other parent.

Lisa (23:42)

Absolutely.

Josh Rinz (23:43)

I think that that

can be an uncomfortable pattern. establishing for your child, you're still very lovable, you're still, and maybe even saying your parent loves you very much, but they just can't show up, about it, they can't show up right now. But I don't think that it's the other parent's responsibility

Lisa (23:57)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Rinz (24:02)

to do that emotional labor. think, you you definitely, don't want to be bad mouthing the other parent. You don't want to be tearing them down or anything, but it's also not your job to continue to support this person who you're now divorcing. your responsibility for doing that labor to, for them to maintain the relationship with their child, that very much ends with the divorce.

You can keep your narrative about the other parent very positive. You can make sure you're doing everything you can to show up and be supportive of that relationship and allowing them to have the relationship. But at the end of the day, you can't really do anything with that relationship. So if your child's asking, does dad still love me because they're not around, I think you can kind of go honest with that, say like.

You know what? Yes, I think that he does still care for you because you're his son, but I don't know why things are happening the way that they are. I don't know why these decisions are being made. And I think it's okay to say that too. To say, I don't know this. I don't know why this is. It is, I think that's an okay thing to say to kids. it goes a long way, a lot further than making something up or trying to

placate them and pat them on the head and reassure them being honest and saying, know, look, I don't understand this, situation.

Lisa (25:19)

I think it's the fear that as a parent, we should always have the answer. But in some, especially in divorce, we don't, we ourselves are navigating why this is happening, right? it's really hard. but you make a great point. But it's also very hard to balance. What kind of burden are we taking on?

Josh Rinz (25:26)

No.

Lisa (25:35)

as the other parent responsibility. It's really a fine line and we ourselves have to find ways to dance with that. Am I overtaking, especially in co-parenting relationship, am I doing my over caretaking for the other parent because I worry if I don't do that, my kids are not going to be taken care of or should I set some kind of boundary? That's a hard line

to balance. it's ultimately about love and how we love and how we perceive love. It's complicated. the emotional labour part requires the parents to check in with ourselves all the time. Am I doing too much? Am I doing too little? Am I comfortable to say, I don't know?

Josh Rinz (26:02)

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (26:19)

when you totally don't know rather than because in my case, I felt like I was lying to my son. It's like, yeah, of course, daddy loves you and will always love you. Later on, and after a couple of years, I decided to be honest, I believe he still loves you, but I'm not sure why he made the decision. He did.

it takes some time to get there. I felt like I was lying to him to give him the assurance that, that he still loves him. And as our kids grow, they have their own understanding as well. you told me as he grows, developmentally, but also as he gets into even further down, having an intimate relationship himself.

Maybe even one day getting married or have children and how he sees the event will evolve as it goes. And that's very empowering.

Josh Rinz (27:09)

That's it. parents,

so they get stuck in the moment, right? And it's so easy when we're in crisis, when we're in these major life transitions, we only see the next hurdle. We only see the next little thing. And when we're talking about a six-year-old, we need to be thinking about a 26-year-old. How is we're in a marathon? We're looking at it, we're looking at the long term. How is this child going to be, like you said, when they're an adult, when they're...

Lisa (27:27)

Mm-hmm.

long term view.

Josh Rinz (27:35)

when they're engaging in their own relationships, when they're becoming parents of their own, what are they gonna have internalized? What skills are they gonna have? How are we going to taught them to process their own feelings? all of these things that they're learning, but we have to remember that we're talking about it long-term, it's conversations we're going to have at six and at 12 and at 18 and at 25 and at different conversations on the same topic, variations on the theme as they grow.

Lisa (28:01)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Rinz (28:01)

But keeping that in mind, that that's our goal, that long term, like you said, down the road, how is this person going to become a full adult human being? And how are we gonna support that as parents? think that can, to go back to what you said earlier, give us some grace, That every decision isn't the pivotal number one decision. We can be human and we can course correct and we can try our best and have it work out.

Lisa (28:11)

Mm-hmm.

Josh Rinz (28:26)

try our best and have it not work out. And all the things that that we're modeling being human over a lifetime for our children. think that's the most important.

Lisa (28:34)

Yeah, embrace the fluidity of life and sometimes can be hard when you're in the moment of crisis and can't see beyond this moment of pain. It's really, really hard. that's why it's so important, to give our kids the gift of therapy,

just normalize it at a young age. Most people, we don't go to therapy until we're in crisis. I mean, understandably, but just using this resource as a tool to support you navigating life. It's a beautiful thing. I think we need to do more of that. And hopefully this podcast will help more people understand that we don't only go to see the doctor when we are sick.

Josh Rinz (29:13)

You

Lisa (29:19)

We do health checks every year. It's very similar. So

on the continuation of a parental conflict because in that scenario, one parent may think supporting our kids with therapy is incredibly important. And the other parent is like, no, I don't think so. I have a client who wants to write this in their separation agreement. But the other parent is like, So what do we do when

In this situation, one parent wants to send the child in therapy, but one doesn't agree. How do we navigate that? Do you have any suggestion?

Josh Rinz (29:52)

It can be very tricky. In those cases, as a clinician, I'm always very curious as to why someone wouldn't want their child to have support of a professional in that case. From that standpoint, I would ask them even to document it in the separation agreement as to why they do not want their child to have access to this recommended service. I would go to that.

extent to really see where their resistance is. That being said, there is not an age of consent in Ontario for children to receive mental health services. It is by capacity. So as long as the clinician believes that the young person has the ability to give consent for their own care, generally it's around 12 or 13, but there are cases where it's younger.

Lisa (30:14)

lens.

Josh Rinz (30:37)

A child can pursue medical or mental health treatment independently of one or both parents as well. So they have, most parents don't, they think it's 18, but it's not. It's capacity-based in Ontario and most places in North America. It's capacity-based where a child can consent to their own medical care or psychological mental health care without consent of either parent should they choose.

Lisa (30:43)

Wow, I didn't know that!

Yeah.

Josh Rinz (31:03)

but can absolutely do it despite the wishes of a parent. If there's a legal agreement in place, sometimes there's an extra step that has to be taken where the child, there's a capacity for them. There's sometimes a step that has to be gone in that case. But often the child is able, if they're old enough, they're able to consent to their own mental health care, regardless of the views of either parent.

Lisa (31:22)

pays for it. Let's say if a 13 year old says, I want a therapy. then

Josh Rinz (31:27)

That's it, that's the case.

The parents can refuse to pay, of course. In that case, most clinicians have sliding scale spots for these kind of situations, right? Where we would say a 13 year old, is really looking for health care or mental health care, mom and dad have cut it off. There are a lot of ways around that. There are ways that they can be referred through their family doctor.

Lisa (31:37)

Yeah, To support, yeah.

Josh Rinz (31:51)

The wait list tends to be a little bit longer, but they could get referred to mental health services or psychiatric services through the family doctor. Again, without the consent of either parent, should they be old enough? Now, if a child's younger, you are a little bit over, if the child's too young to really be able to consent on their own and one parent doesn't want it, then often they can be prevented from seeking that service.

until the child is old enough to give their consent. But again, I would, as a clinician, recommend that if there is a parent that's opposing mental health care, you document very clearly why that is in your separation agreement. Because quite often, the reasons that somebody would oppose mental health care are not things that they would necessarily...

Lisa (32:13)

huh.

Okay.

Josh Rinz (32:35)

want to have read out in court when somebody is deciding custody or things like this, right? So making sure.

Lisa (32:39)

Yes, it's already, it's

always associated with something else. It's just one piece of the puzzle. I'm glad we mapped out that kids can give on consent. I had no idea. However.

Josh Rinz (32:51)

They can, absolutely. And they can, if

it's not, can get a neutral third party in, can get mediators, and it can even be court work.

Lisa (32:57)

Mm-hmm. So what if the parents really want the kids to go get therapy, especially during divorce or some other big changes. But as all kids get older, they have their own opinions. I know my son is only 10. I just see a huge shift of of him wanting to spend less time with me, making his own mind, getting easily agitated and angry. was like, whoa, pre-teen Hello.

But what if the kid themselves don't want to go? There is resistance, I have a client who has adult children. They're still living in the home. So my client is like, I really want them to get the support, I don't even know how to start the conversation because I can't force them to go. But he thinks that would be great if they can go. So what advice would you give that parent?

Josh Rinz (33:33)

Mm-hmm.

I think that a lot of it is in how you frame it. We're validating the feelings of like, tell me about, again, tell me why you don't wanna go to therapy. Tell me why, what are you thinking about it? What are your thoughts on therapy? What do you think wouldn't work? And compare that with the reality. well, it's not always just gonna be somebody who's gonna, you're gonna sit and have a boring conversation all day. There could be a lot of other fun things, especially little kids. There could be play therapy, Even with the adult kids.

maybe we do art therapy together as a family or something like that, like just to get our foot in the door with the experience, maybe we do something that's a little outside of the box, just to get everybody engaged and on board and make it feel like a less threatening thing. I think that just representing therapy as a regular part of how people navigate life.

Lisa (34:24)

Mm-hmm.

lives.

Yeah.

Josh Rinz (34:35)

is a good thing.

mean, younger, we start them. Obviously with little kids, we're wanting them to come, they're coming to therapy, we're playing, we're having a good time, we're maybe doing the picture, we're playing in sand tray we're doing all the play therapy things. And so hopefully we're building that positive association that therapy is fun, therapy feels good. as teens, it's okay for them to drop off, but it's quite natural, they'll pull back or this kind of thing. So I think validating

That kind of thing. Another thing I think people don't realize they can do is audition therapists. Let your kid be involved and phrase it. I always like to phrase it like a TV show. we're casting a therapist for the TV show of your life. let's audition a few therapists and get some 15 minute consultations book and see, Because sometimes after they talk to the person for a few minutes, they're going,

Lisa (35:05)

Yes!

Mm-hmm.

Josh Rinz (35:26)

Well, that wasn't what I expected at all. I'd actually really like to talk to this person. This person was kind of fun or that was not what I thought it was going to be. so letting them experience it, get a little taste of it, but also have that agency in, I'm picking my own therapist. I'm casting my own role. I'm involved in the process and let them look at, you know, look at the bios together.

Lisa (35:41)

I'm sorry, mama. I'm

Josh Rinz (35:47)

All of us therapists have bios we've worked really hard on for different things. Let them look at the bio and ask them, come up with some questions, Like let them put together a couple of questions of like, well, what would be important for you to be a best therapist? If you're looking, if you're a therapist shopping, what qualities are important to you? Do you want somebody who's funny or somebody who's serious? Do you want somebody who, you know, yeah.

Lisa (36:09)

It's quiet. Yeah, listener

or you want someone who's very energetic. you are in the controlling seat to make that decision. That's a very amazing decision, especially when kids are like teenagers or young adults like 20s. They feel like they know everything. They don't want to listen to their parents. And this way, it's participatory way that they feel like they're making decision. I love the suggestion.

Josh Rinz (36:18)

Exactly.

Lisa (36:34)

If I can summarize one, think important thing is I was telling my friend maybe like eight, seven, eight years ago, was like, my son doesn't like reading. She asked me, so do you read at home? I was like, actually not much. You know, so how can I expect my kids love reading when he doesn't have that environment? He has never seen that. That was just like a

big aha moments just opened my mind and, I started to get reading and now, my son just reads a lot. think just seeing, my mom is reading a book and she buys different kinds of book. think it's the same for therapy. Are you self, taking care of your mental wellbeing, by going to therapy or other forms of support, you know, coaching or other things.

Are you normalizing it? Are you setting an example? Second thing you said, make it fun. you can be part of that therapy. Maybe it's art therapy together. If the other parent says no, you can just do it with your own kid yourself and make it into a family almost excursion or family event. The last point is if your kids are older, present them opportunities to choose.

who they are going to work with. And I love you say therapist shopping, cause I always encourage my client to when they choose their family lawyer, I said, go shopping because it's such an important relationship with a lot of time, money, and also the most important thing in your life. You're invested, right? You should also go interview them. And I love you said audition. You should go interview them. It's two ways. And if you don't like that person,

you have all the power to walk away. I, love that suggestion. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about? You feel it's so important for parents navigating a divorce or maybe they are divorced but still have a very

Josh Rinz (38:14)

Absolutely.

Lisa (38:28)

have co-parenting relationship, what should they do or say to support their kids during this big transition?

Josh Rinz (38:35)

I think finding the right fit for a therapist can be essential and really understanding, especially in the modern world. It's a cliche, but it does take a village. And when you as a parent are facing these other things that are taking our time and our attention, can be, sometimes I think we underestimate as parents ourselves, the support that the members of our village can provide for ourselves and for our family.

In the case of the therapist for the child, you've got an adult who's not intersecting the divorce world in any way, where the child has control over the situation. They can express their feelings. They can talk about things. They've got a grownup to listen and maybe give advice or help them process their feelings. And you also have that extra bit as a parent of having another adult that you can talk to that's checking in with your kids, that you can provide a little insight.

a little guidance so you don't feel like you're just kind of out there winging it on your own, right? Bring in those supports, bring in those village, bring in those therapists, those coaches, all those people in your life, all of those services that you can access and really know that that's why they're there. You're not expected to navigate these things alone. Humans don't operate as islands alone, we operate in community.

So really seeking out those pieces of your community that support you and support your family and using them going forward, I think is a really, really important thing.

Lisa (40:00)

Yeah, amazing. asking support sometimes is our belief of our own not enoughness or the guilt and shame we carry during divorce. We don't seek for help. Community is absolutely important. I mentioned that my son was going through ADHD diagnosed, we didn't expect it. But having you as a huge support and continued support.

we didn't even wait for the official psychological report to come back and start to really work on things. And with his family doctor and his school teachers, like you're building your team together to support your kids and you have all the right to do so, which is tremendous during this time and any kind of a transition.

Josh Rinz (40:37)

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (40:42)

Go seek support is the first one, second thing is, it's always great to ask for recommendation in your network. You don't have to just search on the internet and reading bios. I reached out to my own therapist and who, when I said, I think my son needs a child therapist and she highly recommended you.

And you talk about your background and focusing on neurodivergent Even at the time, I didn't know my son had ADHD I was like, wow, what a diverse background this person is bringing into the practice. Seriously. And then we met you and we're very lucky because my son and you connected right away just because your energy, your personality, and really matched with his energy. I think it's so important.

Josh Rinz (41:09)

you

Lisa (41:24)

precious to have this support during this time. Just don't hesitate to go out, seek for help. there are cases that maybe your kid is not connecting with that therapist. You can walk away and don't give up and go try another. Humans, we have different energies and we attract to...

Josh Rinz (41:40)

Absolutely. And

if it's not working with that therapist, talk to that therapist, because that therapist probably has a sense that it's not working either and might have somebody in their referral network that they say, you know, this might be a better fit for your kid therapeutically than I'm able to be right now. And so being really upfront, knowing, like you said, if it's not a good fit, I can walk away at any time. And that's absolutely my right to build the best team for my family and my child that I can.

Lisa (42:07)

Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Thank you so much for this great chat. I know a lot of people will find it helpful and any departing thoughts. before we go.

Josh Rinz (42:17)

Just, think that the thing you said at the beginning, give yourself grace as a parent. Your child is never expecting perfection, but we can do them such a service by modeling being human for them. So keep that in your mind as you're going through it. Divorce is one of the hardest things people can go through. So do the best you can.

Lisa (42:37)

And being human during this time and being authentic. And all we can do is enough. Amazing. Josh, where can people find you? I know you moved to the US a couple of years ago. so where can people get in touch with you and what kind of service should they reach out to you for?

Josh Rinz (42:39)

Be human! That's all we can do. All we can do is be human.

Mm-hmm.

Sure,

so I'm offering virtual sessions in Ontario currently through Bloom Child and Family Therapy in Kitchener Waterloo. Or if people want to connect with me outside of there, my Instagram is joshrinjtherapy. And you can connect with me there. And I often am posting about different workshops or events that I'll be hosting in the community or online. Typically it's online right now. If you're in South Carolina.

I am offering in-person sessions, but for Ontario right now, it's just virtual, but you can see all of my booking information.

Lisa (43:20)

you

Yeah, amazing. Thank you again, Josh, for spending time with us and your wisdom and sharing your passion with us. we'll see everyone next time. Thank you for joining us.

Josh Rinz (43:38)

Thank you for having me. Have a great day.