#15. What No One Tells You About Divorce Grief with Margaret Dennis

Last Friday, my daughter stood on stage, beaming with pride at her Junior Kindergarten graduation.

She was so happy. So proud.
One of those sweet, fleeting milestones you want to hold onto forever.

And for just a couple of seconds… a wave of sadness came over me.
Her father wasn’t there. Again.

He chose to step away from their lives completely.
And while I’ve done a lot of healing over the years, there are still moments—quiet, unexpected moments—where grief taps me on the shoulder.

It doesn’t shout.
It doesn’t demand.
It just lingers, quietly, in the background of a joyful moment.

This is divorce grief.

It’s complicated.
It’s layered.
And it often catches us off guard — even long after the papers are signed.

That’s why I sat down with Margaret Dennis, a holistic grief coach and multiple grief survivor, to talk about the kind of grief no one prepares us for.

🎧 In this episode, we talk about:

• The difference between grief after death and grief after divorce
• How to know if you’re still stuck in grief (even years later)
• How grief shows up — whether you left or were left
• And how to start healing… not by forcing, but by allowing

Whether your marriage ended last week or five years ago — if you’ve ever thought “Why am I still sad?” or “Shouldn’t I be over this by now?” — this episode is for you.

🎁 Special offer from Margaret:
Book a free 30-minute grief coaching session (just mention the podcast) → https://calendly.com/evolvcoaching/30-minute-coaching-call

Follow me for inspiration and tips on how to reinvent yourself through divorce:
📸 Instagram
🌐 Facebook
▶️ YouTube
I'm here to support you to turn the chaos into clarity and create a life you love! 💪✨

Transcript

Lisa (00:18)
Father's Day is this weekend. We're recording this episode right before. I've noticed that this week there is a lot of emotion going through me. And if you don't know the context my kids don't have a father per se. My ex-husband decided to cut off with the kids. This is the sixth Father's Day after my separation. It's still very hard.

this is part of the divorce grief journey it's complex and hits us at a time that we least expect. And

a topic we don't talk enough about because it's so subtle. And that's why we have Margaret Dennis today. Welcome, Margaret.

Margaret Dennis (00:58)
Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Lisa (01:01)
Margaret is a women's life empowerment and holistic grief coach. After surviving six years of infertility, the heartbreaking loss of her three-day-old son, and a divorce, Margaret transformed her pain into purpose, empowering women to confidently navigate grief and step boldly into their next chapter with clarity, freedom, and joy.

And I'm so excited to have you to talk about this very, very important topic.

Margaret Dennis (01:31)
Thank you. Thank you so much. Yes, it is a very important topic. And I love how you talked about what you've been going through and it's six years later because that's the one thing about grief is there's no timeline, right? Grief can come up over and over and over again and different events, different anniversaries, different things that happen are going to trigger that. allowing those feelings to be there is so important.

you for

sharing that because I think it's really important that people hear that it's six years later and you're still feeling that loss. Right.

Lisa (02:02)
Yes.

and also there's complexity, It's also a loss for my children. how do I support them? it's just not one size fits all. And it really require us to, like you said, allow an approach with lot of grace and love and awareness. think that's critically important. That's why it's so important for us to talk about that because as we are so focused on the legal side of things, The emotional side of things and

Margaret Dennis (02:19)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (02:27)
Like you said, there is not a timeline, It's not like, one year after you will feel better or it's never ending, right? To some degree. So I wanted to open up with your personal story too, because we know your work and my work, it's heart to heart. It's very personal. So tell us a little bit, what brought you to this line of work?

Margaret Dennis (02:47)
Okay, I will keep it brief because I have a lot. I like to describe myself as a multiple grief survivor and I think that is actually true for most people. We just don't realize what's caused the grief. So for me, it was six years of bullying as a child from grades three to eight, which are formative years as we're growing up. That took a big hit on self-esteem, self-worth, self-confidence. And then it was six years of infertility after I got married.

Lisa (02:50)
you

I know

what you mean.

Margaret Dennis (03:12)
really

struggling to have a child. So the grief around that was why can't my body do what it needs to do? or that it was built to do. Why me? Why isn't this working? then it's the ups and downs as we went through infertility treatments and all the hormonal things and the grief of not getting positive pregnancy tests after going through procedures. That was pretty hard on both myself and my ex-husband. It was, you know, a constant letdown and it was a constant struggle.

And then we did get pregnant with twins, which we were like, great, two for one, like we're finally getting the family we wanted. And I was a high risk pregnancy at five and a half months. went into labor literally the day after the doctor said, we don't want you to go into labor because there will be so many complications. I went into labor, they couldn't stop it. And I had a boy and a girl, my son, Isaac and my daughter, Lily. Isaac was really, really sick. three days after he was born, we took him off of life support.

Lisa (03:40)
Mm-hmm.

Margaret Dennis (04:04)
and he passed away. And I had a daughter who was one pound three in the neonatal intensive care unit and we were there for six and a half months with her. so launching into motherhood was definitely not how I had expected. So there was a lot of grief that I didn't even recognize was there. The grieving, the expected way of being a mom, not having a normal pregnancy, not being able to get pregnant the this

Lisa (04:17)
Mm-hmm.

Margaret Dennis (04:27)
normal way. had friends who could look at each other and get pregnant, but I couldn't, right? And then, yeah, like literally they'd be like, Ooh, and then boom, she's pregnant. But you know, it was, and I used to, yeah, exactly. But then it was, and it was that grief of seeing all these women getting pregnant and having babies and moving forward and going to baby showers. that was devastating before I had children. It was still devastating after I had children because then

Lisa (04:37)
You look at the moon and you're

Margaret Dennis (04:52)
you would see people with twins. it's kind of like when you buy a new car, you see everybody who has that same car. The same thing when you're going through grief, Or any experience You see the people that are doing what you want, right? The people who are getting pregnant, having the showers, all of those. And then losing my son was very difficult. Definitely not.

What I wanted for a motherhood either is to mourn a child. I know I'm not alone. There are millions of women out there that have been through that we don't talk about that grief. We don't talk about miscarriage and infertility either very often. So there's that grief around not being able to be the mom. I couldn't hold my daughter for three weeks. Every day I go in and see her in the incubator. I could touch her very lightly. And so there was not that able, like it was just all of that.

Lisa (05:32)
Yeah.

Margaret Dennis (05:36)
move forward, it took a toll on our marriage. Obviously it does, it takes a toll on anyone's marriage, but there was also some trust issues that came up in the marriage too. eight years later after our daughter was born, I did leave. so there was the grief of the marriage, on top of that, we lost a business a few years later.

It was just all the things,

So I never expected to get into grief. I was trained as a coach. It was, I wanted to work with women, empower them, help them make their lives amazing. I just kept getting pushed into the grief field. I did a TEDx talk in 2021 about what had happened with Isaac and Lily and talked about grief. And then everyone started referring to me as the grief lady. And I was like, no, no, no, no. that was just my story. I was just sharing it. But then I started teaching about it because during writing my TED talk,

I did a huge breakthrough in healing that I didn't realize 12 years later, I still hadn't healed. And I realized how important it was to feel the emotions, release the emotions, open up that space. Because I spent three months writing and crying, crying and writing, writing and crying. It was crazy. But then after I did the talk, I got so angry that we don't talk about grief. It's not a topic people will...

gravitate towards. In fact, they moonwalk right out of there. so I wanted to start teaching it. when I started teaching it, that's when I had people ask me if I would coach them in it. at first I was really hesitant. So I'm like, I don't know if I can hold space for people because I have my own grief. I was so wrong. When I started, the first time I coached a woman, cause I work with women who are going through grief, it was the most rewarding experience to actually

Lisa (07:00)
Mm-hmm.

Margaret Dennis (07:07)
give someone the space to be heard, to be validated, to let them have a safe space to release because so many of us as women hold on to all the responsibility, all the emotions. We don't want people to see us crumble. We figure we have to be strong because people will say to you, you're so strong, you're so brave. That just is a very subtle way of saying you have to be strong and brave because we can't handle it if you're not. And so providing that space for women to heal.

Lisa (07:32)
Mm-hmm.

Margaret Dennis (07:34)
and to talk and release these emotions was just so rewarding. to watch them progress over working together to a place of joy and a true joy and happiness again, not faking it, actually feeling it was just incredible. So I've been doing that full time for over three years now and just love it.

I just love welcoming women into the practice and being able to be that support person for them because I'm neutral. I'm Switzerland. They can say anything to me and it in the coaching realm.

Lisa (07:59)
Ha!

this one.

I can relate. Thank you so much for sharing. That's just a multi layers of grief. that's why this work is so important. And especially for the society, we don't talk enough about miscarriages and

the identity loss that wrapped around it I had two miscarriages as well. you know, how come my body couldn't do this thing that I should be doing is the underlying message. And then for you, for losing a child. So heartbreaking. then having one, surviving,

Margaret Dennis (08:31)
I

Lisa (08:39)
Constantly reminding you of that loss. Oh my god. I of course it took a toll your marriage I think it will really help if we talk about what are some emotions or even symptoms of grief so that we can help people recognize.

Margaret Dennis (08:42)
Mm-hmm.

Well, one of the things I like to say to my clients is no matter what you feel, it's valid because we start to judge ourselves, when we think grief, we think sadness, Grief is any loss or change. It's not just death related. the loss of a marriage, definitely grief. But when we're going through that loss and that grief, all kinds of emotions can come up. Not only do we feel sad, we may feel angry, bitter, resentment.

Lisa (09:01)
Yeah.

Okay.

Margaret Dennis (09:21)
despair, relief. Some of us may feel giddy about, my God, thank God it's over, right? Especially in a divorce, maybe we were ready for it to be over too. Maybe we were the one who was left and now we're devastated and we're feeling worthless and we're feeling like what's wrong with me and we're questioning. So there are so many different thoughts and emotions that come up with grief and it's really, really important to allow yourself to feel everything.

to allow those thoughts to be there and just say, okay, I'm angry. I'm just gonna let myself be angry for a little bit because that is a valid feeling. what I see happens so often is when people are grieving, they'll be like, I feel relieved. now I feel guilty that I feel relieved and therefore I'm gonna push it down. And if you push it down, it's gonna come out some way. And so when you were talking about symptoms, it could be sleeplessness or sleeping too much.

Lisa (10:02)
Yeah.

Margaret Dennis (10:13)
Maybe we start eating our feelings or we stop eating altogether. I've seen both. We have a really hard time making decisions, which when you're going through the divorce process is something to understand that when we're going through something really heavy like grief, our brain actually releases neurochemicals and it's called grief brain. It's kind of like mommy brain after you've had a baby. can't make it. Divorce brain, all of that, right? So here you are grieving and going through the divorce is the combo.

Lisa (10:33)
Yeah. Or divorce brain

Margaret Dennis (10:41)
And your brain puts out neurochemicals that actually help you to focus, like streamline focus, but they are the ones that will cause you to be, I can't focus. I can't make decisions. I can't sleep. you know, when they say to people after someone has passed away and you're going through the process of making funeral arrangements or celebration of life arrangements or whatever your tradition is, and you're showing up and you're dressed and you got your hair done.

and you're in a nice outfit and you're going to this celebration or a funeral you've arranged the catering and two weeks later you've done everything. people are like, my goodness, I can't believe you could do that. Well, that's your grief brain allowing you to function on a very basic level. But what happens is after that, when everybody goes away and you are left on your own, you will crumble, right? That's when all the

Lisa (11:28)
All right.

Margaret Dennis (11:29)
of holding it together will come out. And that's really when you need the support, That's when you need someone checking in on you, someone coming over and going, okay, it's time to get out of those five day old pajamas, right? Not necessarily to say, hurry up and stop feeling. It's someone to validate what you're feeling, someone to hold space for you, even if it's just sitting beside you on the couch, not saying a word, which is sometimes the best thing you can do for someone.

Lisa (11:40)
Mm-hmm.

Margaret Dennis (11:53)
I'm not judging you. I'm just here if you need it. sometimes, we as humans need that connection. And I always say people heal their grief better through connection. So if you're going through a divorce and you have a best friend, whether you're a guy or a girl, and you've got somebody that you can confide in, someone you can talk to, even if it's a therapist or a coach, if you don't actually want to share stuff with friends or family, find somebody who you can talk to and at least even just sit.

in silence and cry.

Lisa (12:21)
Yeah, think,

thank you for sharing that. It's really, a range of emotions and symptoms. I knew for myself, I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping. but I have clients and they're saying, I'm eating my feelings away, they're binge eating. So it's really different. But I think the key from what you're sharing and my experience as well is to really show the people who are.

grieving or in this divorce transition that you're not alone. And that in itself is so key because you are not alone, but sometimes it can feel that way that this loss is yours and only you can feel it. Right. So I want to come back to talk about divorce specifically because this divorce grief is very, very different.

Margaret Dennis (12:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So,

Lisa (13:04)
It's an end, a loss of multiple things, right? Your dreams, your aspirations, your family, your identity. And this person in front of you, the change of the relationship you have, loss of friendship with this person. And in my case, the loss of a father. So this loss can be very ambiguous

Margaret Dennis (13:16)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (13:24)
someone

passed away, you can have a closure because that's the end. Not that it's easier in any way, but divorce grief is really different. how do you help people when they're dealing with an intangible loss in a lot of ways?

Margaret Dennis (13:32)
It was.

you brought up a really good point is that there's so many layers to grief when you're going through a divorce, Like you said, you're losing your identity. You were a wife or a husband and now you are not. Maybe you were a full-time parent. Now you're a half parent or now you're not a parent at all. Like you're your ex-husband, even though he shut off being a dad, that was his choice, but he still would have

little bit to work through on not being a dad anymore. And there's the layers of losing all your expectations of what your life was going to be like. I was going to be married and have this family and everything, It could even be the loss of financials. It could be the loss of being the home. It could be the loss of family members or in culture,

Lisa (14:16)
You're home. You have sinned.

Margaret Dennis (14:21)
Maybe you're in a culture that does not support divorce and you're going through a divorce, you could lose a whole part of your identity and your social connection. Plus talking about social, you could lose friends. when I went through my divorce, is going from being a couple, we did a lot of things with couples. the majority of our friends were my husband's friends and their wives. so when we separated,

I did go to an event six weeks later. It was the hardest thing I'd ever been to and I left crying. just, couldn't stay. I love all those people and they're wonderful, but they were his friends and their wives. I stayed friends with a few of the wives, but I really distanced myself because it was hard to be around the couples. when I brought a new partner in with me, they were all like, bring them over. I thought, no, that's all his friends, right?

Lisa (15:02)
The history.

Margaret Dennis (15:03)
I lost that, getting together on the weekends with our kids and everything, so you lose that too. But for those who are going through it, know that you're going to create your own as well. I've created some amazing friendships outside of this now and you move forward with that. But this grief that you carry, it will keep coming up in different ways that you may not be expecting, You may be really angry that you've lost your house.

but you're also gonna be grieving that house. You might be really angry that you lost half your investments, but you're also grieving that financial security, it's complex layers within each of the actions that happen. when I'm working with people who are going through that, the biggest thing we work on is really acknowledging what those feelings are. let's face them, let's feel them, how do you want to express them?

I help my clients like we do a deep emotional work where we really go deep let it all out. Say what you want to say so that you're not saying it to your kids and defaming or demeaning their other parent. You want to come somewhere where you can say exactly what you feel. Let it out so that you're not putting it on your kids. You're not spewing it out in the lawyer's office, And you're not saying it to your ex either.

or you're soon to be X I know a lot of what you work with your clients is how do you want to show up? Well, if you can work on your grief and just to be clear grief never goes away. It becomes part of you on a cellular level. You work through it. You can release a whole lot of it and you can reduce the intensity incredibly. But there will always be a little part of you that will grieve this.

Lisa (16:24)
Hmm.

Margaret Dennis (16:34)
past and will agree with what is. And it's learning how to, like you said, six years later, I'm feeling sad about the father's day. Yes. that is a product of your divorce. so understanding that you're still going to have little bits of grief coming up is how do you prepare yourself for when that happens? Do you have strategies in place? Is it, okay, when I'm feeling this, I don't want it to come out with my kids. So I'm going to go take five minutes.

Lisa (16:35)
Mm-hmm.

Margaret Dennis (17:00)
locked in the bathroom or go for a quick walk around the block and leave them with my parents or whatever it is. So I can clear my head. can work through that emotion. I can be sad. And then I can come back. So I work a lot with my clients on let's set some tools in place that will support you as the emotions come up. What happens when you're in the middle of a divorce negotiation and mediation or you're in the courtroom?

And all of a sudden this flood of anxiety or fear or sadness overcomes you. What do you do in that moment? Because I know a lot of the women that I work with are embarrassed when their emotions come up. They don't want to seen as weak, right? We've equated showing emotion, especially sadness and anything vulnerable as being weakness, but it's not. It's just normal. It's human. But what do you do in that moment? How do you calm?

Lisa (17:38)
Yeah. ⁓

Margaret Dennis (17:50)
your certain nervous system, how do you calm so that you can think clearly, you can be present in that moment. So we work on that too.

Lisa (17:57)
Yeah, I think the key is really allowing because our society doesn't really cultivate that context or permission to allow, right? We label emotions as good or bad, but there isn't good or bad. Emotions is simply just energy. our job is to allow the energy to flow through us.

Margaret Dennis (18:07)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (18:20)
I love what you said that grief is always going to be there. So first thing is awareness. Second is our expectation of that. There is an end point that I will forget about this or feel better and never be bothered. I coach clients why am I still feeling this way? three years later or sometimes three months later, right? We said, no, we've already separated. shouldn't feel this way. It's really allowing.

Margaret Dennis (18:32)
Thank

Lisa (18:44)
yourself to feel and also have different expectations of how you would feel because part of that work is our self judgment. Part of that is external societal judgment. I mean, I 've been divorced five years and I still don't have a partner. Right. People ask me, are you dating? If I say no, They may think why not? But here I am feeling

Margaret Dennis (18:46)
.

Lisa (19:07)
completely comfortable and loving my life just by myself. I am not letting that social expectation confine me in any way. But for a lot of people, think it's a little bit hard to be that outcast. precisely why we need to talk more about our own expectation of when will we be healed? Because

Margaret Dennis (19:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Lisa (19:33)
Healing there is not like point A to point B, it's not a business. I'm going to make a hundred thousand, next year. It's not like that. So I really appreciate you sharing that. I also want to talk about the two sides because usually in a separation as someone initiated it, They choose to leave per se and someone is

Margaret Dennis (19:37)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (19:54)
for lack of a better word, being left. It can create a different dynamic and different journey of grief, as you mentioned. let's first talk about someone who didn't choose the divorce and feels blindsided or shocked in my case. I didn't know, he didn't want it, He just say, I don't want it anymore. We were together for more than 10 years. what are some of the first steps they can take to process the pain without getting

Margaret Dennis (19:56)
Yes.

Lisa (20:20)
stuck in resentment because the early days can be really, really hard. I see a lot of people in this space, There may be some betrayal involved, abandonment involved as well. The early days are really hard and people get stuck in there many years. in that victim seat,

Margaret Dennis (20:24)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (20:36)
So how can we get unstuck if we didn't choose to leave?

Margaret Dennis (20:40)
there's a few things you can do, but number one is just acknowledge how you're feeling. We talked a lot about acknowledgement, right? Allow those feelings to be there. whatever you feel is valid. So if you're feeling angry, you're feeling betrayed, you're feeling victims, you're feeling all of those things that come up, you're feeling sad, you're panicked, like your heart's going and you're like,

Allow those feelings to come,

Lisa (21:02)
another one is that what did I do wrong to cause this?

Margaret Dennis (21:04)
Yes,

right. There's that self blame, that self questioning, If someone chooses to leave you, then we're ego beings, We always look at what did I do? We're very egocentric. instead of saying, wait a second, they're choosing to leave. Why are they leaving? We don't necessarily think that way, We go into fight or flight mode. Like when somebody says to you, I'm about to change your entire world, which is basically what they're saying.

The way you thought things were going to be is about to change and you have no control over that. And I know in your coaching, you specifically work on how do you take back that control, which is fantastic. I love that you do that. But in those moments, right, there's devastation. There is complete loss. There is all of those emotions that come up. You need to allow them to come.

I found for me, because I would go to the gym. I didn't go to the gym very often, but I'll tell you, when I needed to, when we said earlier, emotions are energy. I like to think of emotions are energy in motion. when we're not in motion, they get stagnant and stuck. So going for a walk, writing even, if you want a journal, journal. You want to walk around the house and just talk to yourself, move your body. It doesn't have to be intense.

Get the emotions out, even if it's sitting in mindfulness and just allowing yourself to cry, that's emotion, right? Anything to let the emotions out because what happens is we keep them in so tight that they burst out anyway. And that's when we find that we're yelling at our kids. We're very short tempered. We're bursting into tears at the grocery store. And that is just really the emotion starting to process. I have an exercise that a friend gave to me.

called room to grieve. I share it with my clients all the time. it's a really easy thing to do. if you're feeling overwhelmed with your emotions Cause sometimes our emotions feel so big, we don't want to let them out. So what you do is you find a closet, small bathroom, somewhere where you can go and close the door and feel enclosed.

Shut the windows. then set a timer for five minutes. And then just let yourself feel whatever you're feeling. You're angry and you want to scream or you just want to be like, just let it be there. You want to cry for five minutes. You want to feel resentful. You want to feel relief. Whatever that emotion is that's coming up, set the timer. And what the timer does is it brings you back.

Lisa (23:04)
Okay.

Margaret Dennis (23:21)
Because like I said, so many people feel that these emotions are so big and they're gonna take over. I've had so many people say, I'm gonna start to cry and I'm never gonna stop. Well, you will, but with this timer, it's gonna bring you back. And at that moment, you can decide, I need another five minutes in this or, nope, I think I'm okay. Because you're gonna feel lighter. You're gonna feel like you've released that pressure. at that moment, you open the windows, you open the door, you let that energy out.

You may have to come back 10 minutes later and do it again, and that's okay. Or you may not have to do it for six months or a year. But it's something that allows you a sense of control on your emotions too with that timer. It's that, okay, wait, I can come back now. That really helps. I found a lot of friends have really, they've been like, wow, that really helped.

Lisa (23:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that specific strategy, but also the awareness that when we feel stuck, this stuck energy stays in our body. For a lot of people it stays in there for years if we truly want to let go moving our body and allow that energy to move through is so, so, so critical. And also it is hard. It is hard when you're in shock and being left

Margaret Dennis (24:12)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (24:28)
Really give yourself permission and not rushing yourself through and say, my God, I shouldn't feel this sad, I should get into the legal or whatever. Don't get through the logistic side of things until you are relatively stable and ready. And also it's really, really, really a great opportunity for us to learn our own needs. that five minutes, right? I might need to sit down and cry. ⁓

Margaret Dennis (24:35)
Mmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lisa (24:56)
sit down and journal, I may need to go take a walk, whether it's five minutes and then after five minutes, I'm still not ready. I need another five hours. It's a great opportunity because we somehow all get lost in our marriage playing the wife husband partner or mother father role. it's a great opportunity for us to practice to get connect with ourselves again. Super important.

Let's talk about the guilt and shame, part of the grief, because I'm talking with a lot of people, many of my clients who after sitting in that, should I stay or should I go for a very long time, finally decided, okay, I need to separate or divorce, But choosing to leave the marriage have this guilt come along.

Margaret Dennis (25:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (25:44)
And debating, I really need to end it or worrying about the impact on the kids? Am I going to hurt the kids by making this choice or should I have tried harder? Even though deep down, deep down, they know this marriage is not good. there's no judgment from me. having that awareness is already a big step. So how do you support people in moving through that?

guilt of deciding to leave.

Margaret Dennis (26:08)
Mm-hmm. I think you touched right on it. It's who am I and what's really important to me? I can tell from personal experience from the day I started thinking about leaving to the day I walked out the door was over five years Because I went through all of that I was like if I leave I'm breaking up the family and how's that gonna impact my child there was also the what are people going to think and then the

Lisa (26:20)
Mmm.

Yes.

Margaret Dennis (26:30)
I was raised in the Cinderella Disney era where you were supposed to live happily ever after. And so I was part of that thought of how can I make my marriage work so I get the happily ever after? And the guilt about I felt that my leaving was selfish. I think a lot of us will feel like I'm choosing me and as women especially, and men feel free to chime in if it feels this way too.

When we're choosing us and what's best for us, guilt comes up all the time because we're worried about how it's going to impact other people. It may be the best choice for us, but we worry, like you said, about the kids, about how our ex is going to respond, how are our in-laws, how are our parents, our family, our friends, our culture, how is everyone going to respond and what's that backlash going to be? can I handle that? Am I okay making this choice for myself?

Lisa (27:22)
To be the villain. Villain who left.

Margaret Dennis (27:23)
Yeah, yeah, to be villainized

because I was the one who left. I was the one who chose. that's where it's really important to take the time to go inward and say, and I always say to people, think about both sides. What is the pros of staying? What are the cons of staying? What's the pro of leaving and the cons of leaving? Where are you at? What's most important to you? What can you live with?

Lisa (27:29)
Yeah.

Margaret Dennis (27:46)
do you want in your life? Is this marriage, is asking a lot of those questions and there may still be twinges of guilt. Like I'll tell you when my daughter would say to me, mom, I really miss having a family. Yeah, my heartstrings would go, but I also know as a mom, I am way happier and a much more present and positive and supportive mom.

not being married to my ex-husband than I was when I was with him because I didn't like who I was when I was with him. I didn't like who I became, right? I was the people pleaser, the fixer, the try and make it all work. Whereas now I don't do that. And I wanted to be the role model for my daughter. That was what I wanted for her. And I wanted her to see a strong, happy woman.

as her mom who could love and be present. And so really, I think the guilt comes down to...

Being able to see what's important to us and what the long-term impact is going to be from making the choice that we're making. And being able to be strong enough and say, know what? I know this is going to happen, but I am firm in my belief that this is the best decision for me. And the rest will work itself out because if I'm standing in my strength and what I need, I know when I'm getting what I need, I can give more back.

I can be the better mom, can be the better colleague and the worker and the daughter and all of those things. So guilt, it's really, it's a tough one because we're like pre-wired to feel guilty, but it's really coming back to you. ⁓

Lisa (29:13)
Yeah, again, a thousand percent. It's that social expectation. And then,

how does our individuality fit into that collective society? But also knowing one key factor is that you're indecision, Sitting in that for you five years and I'm supporting a friend who is in this space for 10 years. It's a long time, For everyone is different, but that indecision

is killing you because it's draining your energy so much, It's there when you're eating, it's there when you're parenting. So finding way to make that decision, whether it's stay or leave or just accept what's in front of you is very important. So I would say, I agree with you. If you're in that, should I stay or should I leave stage? It's very common. We all have questions and the key is not you.

Margaret Dennis (29:39)
It is dressful.

Lisa (30:04)
choosing the marriage. The key is you getting clear of who you are, your identity first without in the context of that marriage. Who are you? And what are your values and vision? What's the kind of life you want to lead? Getting that clear first and then ask the question, okay, is my husband or wife?

Margaret Dennis (30:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lisa (30:28)
or this marriage fitting into how can that fit into who I am? What do I want? That's the order, not the other way around. I think we're getting it wrong.

Margaret Dennis (30:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I do exercises with my clients that help them reconnect with their core values. And for some of them, they've never identified. They just know when things upset them and when they don't. But getting back to what is truly, truly important to you. And then from there, you can make the decision. Like you said, is this aligning with what I have? And there's the other question of, is there a way of having this marriage align with what I have?

Lisa (30:48)
Yeah.

Margaret Dennis (31:04)
or isn't there. Maybe it just takes a conversation and clearing up things and then both are willing to work at it. Maybe it's not gonna happen, but it's understanding that what is most important to you and who you are, 100%.

Lisa (31:19)
Yeah. And at the same time, knowing that when you're in this space, no matter you choose to stay or leave, your life will be different because you will change, right? Your perception and perspective about this marriage will change. So the only way that it will work in, whether staying or leaving is, is both sides come together to work on it.

Margaret Dennis (31:28)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Lisa (31:44)
I mean, even if you choose to divorce and you still co-parenting, there still needs this re align of values and approach happen. And sometimes sadly doesn't. So I love our discussion on the focus on ourselves. Very important people getting it so wrong because we cannot change others, but ourselves. I know it sounds cliche, but in this should I stay or should I go? It's so true. But when we change.

Margaret Dennis (31:54)
Mm-hmm.

huh. huh.

Lisa (32:10)
We can influence the people around us. Very subtle, but it can be done and it's beautiful. some people, might be stuck in that grief cycle and how do they even recognize it? It is grief.

Margaret Dennis (32:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (32:27)
And then to decide that it's time to seek support.

Margaret Dennis (32:32)
Well, I'm a big proponent of as soon as you can because we're not taught how to deal with grief and everybody's journey is different. Everyone responds to grief differently, responds to their situation differently based on everything in their past that they're bringing to the table. But signs that you may be stuck are similar to the symptoms of grief when they come up. maybe you're struggling to move forward and get into other relationships or you're shying away from other relationships.

Lisa (32:56)
And next shot.

Margaret Dennis (32:58)
Maybe it's you're all of a sudden feeling really depressed or anxious, whereas you didn't before. Maybe you're sleeplessness or you're oversleeping. Your emotions start to come out in physical symptoms. Maybe you've developed, physical symptoms or bowel or stomach issues, or all of a sudden you're getting headaches and migraines. Again, if you didn't before and you are now,

Maybe worth investigating that it's related to the grief that you're not expressing. Maybe you're finding that when grief comes up, you shy away from it. Maybe you're recognizing that when those emotions surface, you push them right back down. That's a really big sign that you need somewhere or someone to hold space for you so you can get them out. it's so important to recognize

that you may not be able to move through this on your own. Our society tends to make us feel that, grief is normal. You can do it on your own. You can figure it out. You'll move on. Or you get those feelings. I've heard so many really inconsiderate and unthoughtful things say to people, right? Somebody lost their child six weeks and then went back to work and someone said, you're not over it yet? no. But having...

a space to work through it. If you're struggling to really truly feel happy, to really truly feel joy, to feel connected back into society, if you're really hibernating and you're keeping to yourself, those are all outward signs that you may still be stuck in grief. Because when we've had things that have hurt us so deeply, we shy away.

Lisa (34:22)
Yeah.

Margaret Dennis (34:27)
our brain goes into survival mode, right? It's like, I was in a relationship before and didn't end well. So I'm gonna be really careful moving or I'm just never gonna do it again.

Lisa (34:36)
And when you don't approach it and seek help now, trust that it will come later and 10 times worse or amplified, know, 20 years later, 30 years later, That's where we see second divorce and third divorce. Again, no judgment

Margaret Dennis (34:40)
Mm-hmm.

It will.

Lisa (34:55)
This is when we didn't allow our emotions and especially grief to go through us. And then we get into the same pattern with different people. It can be very detrimental. And I also love what you said that past grief. And sometimes maybe I'm getting a little bit mystical there that some of the grief we're carrying is not even from our own life.

Margaret Dennis (35:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (35:21)
Could from generational before, like for women, our mothers, our mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers, right? How women were treated. So it can be very complex, like we said. And another thing I want to point out is that people say time heals. I would want to challenge that time doesn't heal. Your intentional effort.

Margaret Dennis (35:26)
and ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (35:44)
to go on your healing journey, to seek help, to grow, heal, heals. Time doesn't heal. If you're just sitting there and, people expecting you, Oh, a year later, Oh my God, how could you still not be dating? How could you still be sad about your whatever? It's their problem because time doesn't heal your efforts. So seek help. it really doesn't matter whether you're working with a divorce coach or grief coach or a therapist.

Margaret Dennis (35:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa (36:09)
whatever support you're getting, you're worth it. You're worthy of getting support during this time. It's so important. working in this field for this long, Margaret, what's one myth about grief? And I just said that time doesn't mean I just said mine. What's one myth about grief that you wish people, more people understand and especially

Margaret Dennis (36:13)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (36:33)
when it's grieving not at death, whether it's a divorce or some other loss, which doesn't have a clear end point.

Margaret Dennis (36:42)
You want one, I could give you a whole bunch. But one of the ones is you don't ever move on from grief. You don't leave it behind. It becomes part of you. You integrated into who you are, into this new identity of the person. So when people say just get over it, you don't get over it. Like you said, you make intentional choices to heal. You don't ever forget what happened. You don't ever...

Lisa (36:44)
Hahaha.

Margaret Dennis (37:06)
move away from that. And so if you can't forget, how can you not feel, right? There's still going to be that. The other one that I wanted to talk about too, is that not everyone feels grief the same way. I think so many of us expect others to feel and behave the way we do. Every single person experiences their grief uniquely. So I always like to say your grief, your journey, and there's no timeline, like you said too,

Lisa (37:17)
Yeah.

Margaret Dennis (37:30)
No timeline. You work on it at your pace, but the important part is that you are working on it, that you are making intentional choices. I always say to my clients, it's a choice. And some people have gone, it's not my choice to be sad. And I'm like, it kind of is. and it's okay to be sad, but understand that you're still choosing to be sad. And it's not like the day after you're going to wake up and be happy. No. But what can you do to bring yourself

back to a place of joy and happiness. What can you do to move forward with this feeling of resentment or relief or guilt or shame instead of staying stuck? I think when we look at people who stay stuck in grief, they're the ones who are getting something out of being in that space. They're getting attention. They're getting, they're feeling like they're connected to whoever passed or whatever they've lost. And so,

the myths out there is that people will grieve in a certain way and they won't. really, you don't know how you're going to grieve until you're in the middle of it. You may think, when my mom dies, I'm going to feel this way. And then you'll feel completely different. You don't know. You really don't know. And so giving yourself a lot of compassion and removing the judgment is so important.

So important.

Lisa (38:43)
Yeah. I think the key is allow yourself to move through it. and understanding there is not a map. If you jump on this step, you will feel better or that expectation, letting that go. Amazing. Anything else that we haven't touched that you would like?

Margaret Dennis (38:53)
Yeah.

Well, you just

touched on it right there, is you have to move through it, And as hard as it is, you have to allow yourself to feel, I always say you have to feel to heal. You have to move through the pain. You have to allow those feelings to be there. You cannot skirt around them. You cannot jump over them. There is no linear process. That's the other thing with grief is they're like, you go through all these stages. Well, you might experience in them, they will show up differently for you and there isn't a linear process.

Lisa (39:02)
All

Margaret Dennis (39:27)
It is what it is. And so that's what makes grief so difficult for people is when they're in it, it's nothing like what they expected. And then they don't know what to do. And that's when you need to reach out.

Lisa (39:29)
Yeah.

Yeah,

in this divorce, my God, it's you don't even have words to just describe and how hard it is. the severe pain you feel inside of you. if you have not experienced this, it's hard to describe the betrayal, the resentment and the anger, the unjustification.

So there are lot of layers and really require us to give ourselves that space. another thing is that I really want to invite people to open this space to talk about grief more, especially in divorce, divorce, grief, it hurts deep,

Margaret Dennis (40:14)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (40:15)
losses that wrapped around this. It really cuts deep. But I know the more I open up to talk about it and showing up with vulnerability and the deep connections I made, it's beautiful. And like you said, is part of us. I'm becoming this... How do I even say that? This new version of me.

Margaret Dennis (40:32)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (40:37)
who is just so full of empathy and love and understanding to a level that I didn't even... If five years ago you would tell me this is what I would be doing and sharing my story, I'd be like, my God, you're crazy. First of all, I didn't think I would ever get divorc ed So I would really encourage people to share more.

Margaret Dennis (40:59)
Yeah.

Lisa (41:03)
Whether you want to share this podcast or go to Margaret to work with her or come work with me, whatever format. Let's share more. Let's normalize talking about grief and even talking about divorce without shame and guilt and to really normalize this narrative of divorce and the conversation. So that's my invitation. So thank you so much, Margaret.

Margaret Dennis (41:13)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa (41:27)
where can people find you?

Margaret Dennis (41:28)
Well, you can find me on my website at www.evolvecoaching and it's E-V-O-L-V-No-E coaching.com. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook at Evolve Coaching and I'm on LinkedIn under my name, Margaret Dennis. Feel free to reach out anytime. I'm happy to have a conversation, just explore how I could help. Or even if you have any questions about resources for supporting yourself with grief, I've got a ton. So people can always reach out for that too.

So thank you so much for having me. really, ⁓ really enjoyed our conversation today.

Lisa (41:56)
Amazing. Yeah.

It's an important conversation and you

also have a special offer for people who are tuning in would you like to tell people that?

Margaret Dennis (42:09)
Sure, if you're coming from Lisa or you've listened to the podcast, just let me know and I'm offering a 30 minute one-on-one complimentary session that will laser focus on one thing that you wanted to work on and we'll see where we can go from that. ⁓

Lisa (42:24)
Great. Thanks again, Margaret, and thanks everyone for

tuning in. We will see you next time.