State of the CRE Debt Market—Insights from CREFC’s Lisa Pendergast

This week the LightBox podcast team talks with Lisa Pendergast, President and CEO of Commercial Real Estate Finance Council (CREFC) about the CRE debt market. Together, they discuss the current landscape of the commercial real estate finance market, highlighting a sharp rebound in market sentiment and CMBS issuance volumes. And, despite the robust levels of new issuance, lenders are proceeding with a disciplined approach to underwriting deals. Lisa shares insights into the performance of key asset classes and puts some important perspective on negative media headlines. The discussion also covers policy and regulation and the potential impact of stagflation on CRE finance, and the growing emphasis on affordable housing initiatives. And, Lisa closes with her thoughts about reasons for optimism in today’s market.

01:19 Current State of the CRE Finance Market

03:07 Market Sentiment and Robust Issuance Volume

05:49 Challenges in the Office Sector

10:04 Stagflation and Economic Concerns

17:29 CREFC’s Engagement with Policy Makers

20:47 Role of CRE CLOs for Transitional CRE Assets

25:41 Reasons for Optimism in the Market

Have questions for the pod team? Send them to Podcast@LightBoxRE.com. 

www.lightboxre.com

Transcript

The CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox

Episode 39: State of the CRE Debt Market—Insights from CREFC’s Lisa Pendergast

March 28, 2025

Martha Coacher: This is the CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox, a firm transforming the commercial real estate landscape by connecting every step of the CRE process with comprehensive tools and data. I'm Martha Coacher with our experts, Manus Clancy, and Dianne Crocker. This week we're talking to Lisa Pendergast, who's the president and CEO of Commercial Real Estate Finance Council, known as CREFC. Lisa, we're looking forward to getting your insights on the state of the CRE finance market, CMBS trends. And what could be ahead. But first, for our listeners who may not be familiar with your organization, please share some background about the makeup of your membership in your organization. 

Lisa Pendergast: The Trade Association is very much focused on all things commercial real estate finance. That includes the securitization market, be it for the commercial mortgage-backed securities market, or commercial real estate CLOs. Both of those sectors of every vibrant as are the agencies. So, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Ginnie Mae for quite some time. You know, as a research analyst, I was involved in all of those markets. So, it's been a nice transition to go from writing research for 30 years to take some of that information that I, uh. I developed and, and worked on for so, so long to be able to use that now here at, at CREFC has been sort of a joy as working with all of our members. 

Martha Coacher: Let's start with the state of the market, something we talk about weekly on our podcast. What's your current outlook on the commercial real estate debt markets? 

Lisa Pendergast: It's somewhat challenging to understand where we're going to go in the current environment. As you know, we have a Board of Governors sentiment Index, and as of the fourth quarter of this year. We continue to see improvement in, in CRE lending market confidence. That certainly was lacking during Covid, coming out of Covid, trying to understand where we were, what the rate environment would be, and more importantly, how certain asset classes were going to perform. So clearly the, the focus there was the office sector as to, you know, whether that would sort of prevail given the work from home regimen that was sort of developed during Covid and then continued. So, we spend a good amount of time on the various asset classes that are, that are out there to the good. I think the sentiment index has shown that sentiment has rebounded pretty sharply in late 2024 and really into the first quarter. It's looking even better. There's sort of a renewed confidence in, in, in lenders from a market condition perspective. Clearly would like to see rates rally a bit in here so that, uh, mortgages seem to work better, more efficiently. But we are anticipating more capital flowing into commercial real estate, and you know, the good things, as I noted, underwriting remains very cautious. We really have stricter lending terms remain in place. Again, that started out in the Covid era. 

Dianne Crocker: One of the things that we've been talking on the podcast about is the momentum in January and February. Clearly 2024 was, was a relatively slow year. I. I did see our sentiment index, which I think I read was the highest ever recorded for the index. And I think that's consistent with what we're seeing in the market too. Just a back to business. And I wonder, in terms of the first quarter, where are you seeing the issuance volume shaking out and how are new transactions being absorbed by the market? 

Lisa Pendergast: Yeah, I think, you know, industry sort of issuance to date has been robust. I, I think if I project out from what we've done so far. This could be a year where we see about 160 billion or so of, uh, of, of securitization, you know, as I mentioned, just year to date. We've seen about 37 billion. And again, I think that will continue strong. We could talk about it later, but one of the things I would say is that the biggest sort of slowdown is this whole issue of where loans that are maturing are from a coupon perspective and where they need to go. So many of these loans were done during Covid and else, you know, in other times where you had, you know, maybe as low as a two and a half percent to say a four and a half percent rate. We are nowhere near that today. So, there's this, this gap between where these loans are maturing and where they need to go from a new loan rate perspective. And, you know, I think oftentimes that means you need to be money in on that transaction in order to make the, the sort of the math work in the current higher rate environment. So, for me, clearly what the Fed does, and, and hopefully at some point they, they, you know, sort of pursue a fairly robust easing program. We're still going to have this issue in the market until that happens where you're going to have some, some stress points as we refinance all of those loans at much lower coupons. So, having said that, we are seeing a resurgence and, uh, and those loans that can refinance in a new issue, um, sort of, uh, loans as well. So again, uh, you know, where we are today suggests to me that we will see a fairly robust 25 the most since we, since we, you know, saw prior to Covid and all of that. So, 24 we had 115 billion. So, it doesn't strike me as a significant leap of faith to think that we'll get somewhere in that one 50 to one 60 billion this year.

Dianne Crocker: Well, that's music to my ears, Lisa. Same here. 

Manus Clancy: I want to start out with some kudos to you. You gave a, an introduction about what the organization does to just underscore that a little bit. The organization has been around for really three decades and is really at the forefront of. Providing resource and data. I look at their layouts and data all the time. It's a terrific thing. If you're not somebody who visits the website or reads the research to our listeners, it's something you should utilize. But with that, Lisa, let me ask you this question. You are the face of the industry. You are the head of CREFC negative news cells in this country. There's been a lot of negative office headlines for the last two or. Yet industrial, most retail, a lot of multifamily really doing well. How, what do you and the Board of Governors handle the negative news when it's so one sided at times and threatens to give people a misperception perhaps that the whole CRE market is behaving like offices.

Lisa Pendergast: I do what, what I'm doing right now and really don't turn down many opportunities to speak to folks like you or to speak to the press, to the extent that Sure. The, the office market is under some stress here. As we know other asset classes are performing decently when you look at sort of, uh, the CMBS loan performance and that, and that's not to suggest that, you know, I think there are other sectors that may even be performing better. But the numbers aren't horrible. You know, the, the office sector is at 9.8% from a delinquency perspective. That was just as, that's Feb 25. We don't have the March data as yet. Um, and then the lowest was industrial, which is not, not surprising at all. At 34 basis costs. And then there's a whole bunch in between. Multifamily at four and a half, retail at 7.5 and hotel at around 6.4%. So, we are experiencing beyond just the office issue and the office usage, right? So that's, I think, germane to what's going on in the, in the office sector, whereas all other markets, be it hotel, retail, multifamily. Industrial, they seem to be humming along in sort of the same pace that you would anticipate. It's really the office market that that is the, as we have you mentioned, that really sticks out amongst those asset classes. But even then, you know, in the retail market, for example, I just sat through a really lovely presentation by some small owners and those who follow the malls, and it struck me as amazing as to the level of sort of. Positivity, if you will, as technology malls are performing and hearing how malls handle these stores, I should say, within those malls, handle inventory, what they're doing differently than they have in the past. I mean, I remember as, again, as a research analyst writing about dead malls for so often it, it got to be, you know, really kind of at some point depressing. And to the extent that that seems to have turned around significantly, it, it pleases me, unfortunately, where it's like whack-a-mole, right? So used to be one sector, and now it's, it's certainly the office market and office usage. My concerns, you know, on the office front, not only are clearly what's going on in the market today, but more importantly, I, I don't necessarily see. Office to multifamily conversions, for example, being the panacea here, that's going to solve all things. It will solve some things, but it's certainly not going to take that big swath of, you know, sort of stress that's in the office market now away anytime soon. So, we're going to struggle with that office sector for quite some time, you know? But even if you look at other sectors like, you know, hotel, retail, multifamily, the, the lowest there as I mentioned is, is industrial. But you know, hotel and retail, retail is 7.5%. That's not a great number. And it's not much off the 9.8% in the office market. And so, you know, that number has come down. By the way, office delinquencies were somewhere around 11%. They're down sub 10%, which is barely. That's a good sort of trend in the right direction, and yet there's still a lot of office assets that we need to work through and it's going to take time. Whereas other markets I think will continue to potentially improve retail. I'd like to see perform better and I think it will as we move forward.

Dianne Crocker: You are the second person in two days to equate the market to that carnival game, whack-a-mole. So that was a very interesting comment and a lot of what you just said I think is, is very reassuring. I was talking to one of our lender clients the other day. He's. With a large global institution, and he did say thus far this year they're unbelievably busy with their lending volumes up 25% year on year from both a mix of refis and new originations. And what he said kind of reinforced what you just. Shared with us, you know, that while rates maybe aren't moving down as quickly as he hoped, they know enough to price in one or two rate cuts a year and, and move forward and, and be cautious. So, it sounds like that's consistent with what you're seeing, but you know, there's a lot of talk now about the potential for stack inflation in the economy for, uh, recessionary pressures starting to take root. So, I wonder what your thoughts are on stagflation and its potential impact on CRE finance markets. 

Lisa Pendergast: Sure. Unfortunately, my, my outlook isn't all that rosy either. I believe there's a, a significant risk of a stagflationary environment. Certainly, tariffs and trade policies will fan inflation, and it really doesn't bode well for sure. For what we would like to see happen, which is for rates to go the other way. So, it's really difficult, I think, from a Fed perspective, FOMC perspective, to think about cutting if we have sort of this fanning of inflation in other places. Again, I do hope that we reconsider some of our tariff policies and the like as we move forward. I wonder, um, and hope perhaps even if they do go forward, that they will quickly be sort of unwound. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but it, it seems to me that that would need to happen. You know, and again, just inflation as it stands are not horrible, but something like that could push us over the edge from that perspective. And, and then there's also, you know, the potential with rates at that level that you will see a degradation in economic growth. And again, it's, it's the double negative there. What's, what's actual triple negative is the fact that when you have that stag flash inflationary environment, it's tough for the Fed to operate, right? Because now they're fighting two suits, two battles, and I, I think in that case they may move, but I think they're going to be very thoughtful about what they. Ultimately do, because this is a, a stagflationary environment is a really, really tough one, but I see it happening. I see it. It's not certainly out of the realm of possibility here, and it really depends on whether or not, you know, I'm hoping that maybe tariffs are sort of a threat and maybe they be in, they're instituted for, you know, a month or two or three and then they pulled back. It wouldn't be. Incredibly surprising to see that kind of volatility and, and sort of, uh, policymaking. And yet, you know, it is a negative and so I think it's going to make it very challenging for. You'll see cashflow coming off assets, potentially, um, deteriorate at the same time that you're seeing inflated rates. And so, it's really going to make it extremely challenging for, um, the amount of, uh, loans that are maturing to refinance, um, successfully. 

Manus Clancy: So, Lisa, let me maybe try to ask this, this question. It, it seems kind of paradoxical. On the one hand you have higher for longer. You have the threat of stagflation. I don't think you're the only one in the industry who feels this way. I think it's a real thread, as you said, and you talked about things like office higher costs, things like that. Yet, if we hit 160 billion in the CMBS market, I think it'll be the second highest total ever if I'm not mistaken. And if that's not ever, 

Lisa Pendergast: It'll be up there. 

Manus Clancy: Yes, it'll be up there. So how do you swear that lenders are just so successful in putting out money. Investors are gravitating towards CMBS, threats are tightening. There's a real attractiveness to this, to the asset class right now in the face of a lot of, of these threats that you mentioned during our conversation thus far. So how do you square that in your head? Why is the market so pull steam ahead at the moment, would you think?

Lisa Pendergast: Again, I, call you on full steam ahead. I think when I think full steam ahead, I think 2000 5, 6 7, which as we know did not end well. I do think there's a significant amount of caution that's being sort of exhibited in terms of underwriting investors, institutional investors who buy CMBS bonds. Buy series CLOs, you know, are really very focused on credit quality and the like. And some of them, you know, obviously their job is to manage a portfolio of CMBS or series CLOs or whatever else they're investing in. And they, they tend to be too cautious. But I see the underwriting as remaining relatively benign. I've lived through periods, um, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Which were not all that pleasant, and it was because the proforma underwriting and sort of just the, the overly exuberant underwriting that went on in general caused significant problems and, and really were certainly part of the sort of great recession and the like. I do think that could be. That could temper volume. If you find that bond buyers are saying, guess what, I've seen a good amount of volume. It's pretty decent. But if it starts to slip, I'm out. And I could see folks doing that quickly. Uh, we've all been sensitized as to what losses could look like on a, on a CMBS deal if they're sort of aggressively underwritten, too much leverage and the like, and not enough coverage. So those are the things that folks are going to look to and ideas say that the issuer base is looking at. Creating loans, be they SASB or conduit, um, where they can, you know, be assured that at least from a credit box perspective, it's at that sort of average sort of risk waiting, if you will, and aren't excessive because I do think that there is a great risk of bringing these deals. Investors have grown to be, you know, they've always been sophisticated, but even more so, they're looking at bonds. And, and they're turning them down if they're, if they're not interested. And that will help you to change your ways very quickly as a, as an underwriter and a lender. 

Manus Clancy: So, what you're saying is discipline has really held as it has really since 2007 or early 2008, which I guess is really, I guess, the backbone of this industry, right? As long as discipline holds and it has for quite some time, then the, uh, issuance levels should continue to be healthy. 

Lisa Pendergast: Yeah, and I, I dare say that our numbers would be higher if folks were a lot more aggressive. And so, to the extent that they are where they are, you know, is, is, uh, is key. And the other thing I would say is that there is significant numbers of loans that are maturing. That will continue to fuel, I believe the CMBS marketplace from a bank perspective. You know, they tend to, right now, if you look at 2025 and, and their maturities, the banks are about 452 billion and, you know, the, the lightest is obviously the life companies at 64. But I do think that when we still are looking for great clarity on Basel and the. The impact on banks and capital charges and the like, that until there is clarity there, the banks will continue to originate solid good loans. But I suspect that they, they could see more volume if, um, they had some clarity as to is what those capital charges are going to look like, how much they're going to get rolled back from what's being proposed, which is just a, a high mark. So, you know, we'll wait and see on that one. But right now, if you think about the holdings and the maturities, you know, banks have about 452 billion in loans that are maturing. Um, the lowest in that crowd is in, not surprisingly, Fannie and Freddie, which is just multifamily. You know, even the, the CMBS market is second highest at 231 billion, and that's just this year. It slows down in 26 and 27, but still relatively high for the banks in 26 and for the CMBS market as well.

Dianne Crocker: So, what I'm hearing, Lisa, is that anybody who supports refi activity could be in for a busy 2025 and 2026. Given the important role that CREFC plays in the industry, I would really like to hear you talk about how the organization is engaging with policymakers around potential regulatory relief or support. Obviously, what's coming out of DC now is of great interest to all of us in the industry, so I'd like to get your two cents there. 

Lisa Pendergast: You're keeping us busy for sure. Clearly, we've talked about it already a little bit, but. Policy and regulatory environments are where we spend a good amount of our time. We are certainly always focused on, on the Fed and what they're doing, and clearly, we don't have a lot of influence there and nor should we, but we are always talking to both regulators, other regulators, and to the House and the Senate. What I can say, and hopefully this makes some sense, is that regardless of your, you know, political alliance. The fact that we have a Republican in the, you know, is sort of a trifecta, if you will. I think that will change somewhat the complexion of the regulatory, the heads of the regulatory bodies out there. And so, to the extent that I anticipate that those regulatory bodies may be a little bit more business friendly than what we've seen under the Biden administration. And that's not to suggest, and I don't mean to disparage anyone, that everybody's doing their job as they see fit. And yet I do think we have some better alignment with the business community under the current administration potentially. And that wasn't, doesn't suggest that we were enemies with anyone. We always were able to go in and chat with the various regulatory bodies that oversee our market. And that's always been a good thing. And it's good to have the conversation, even if we don't always agree on certain things. I do think that the appetite. To hear us out is probably going to, to be better than what it's been. And yet you can't even tell, you know, you can never tell any individual may feel differently in those regulatory bodies. Um, so there are things that we will continue to focus on and, you know, uh, I, I do think that there are. Areas that I would like to focus on and, and a lot of that would be on the affordable housing side. We've been working with community development financial institutions, which unfortunately are somewhat in the cross hairs of the Trump administration right now. Um, but we've been trying to work with them to potentially create a securitization market for CDFIs. I think it's a heavy lift. I would give it. Maybe less than a 50/50 chance of, of ever happening, only because of the, the sort of the infrastructure one needs to do a securitization. But those are the types of, those community development financial institutions do a lot of home lending, be it apartments, multifamily. And to the extent that we would probably focus there to securitize those loans, just another way to create liquidity for that particular sector. And for a very long time, you know, I was, uh. I focused on GD MA project loans with a 35 40 year fully amortizing loans. Not the simplest sector, A bit outdated perhaps, but again, another wonderful place to think about building and focusing on affordable housing. And so there, there are things that I think we can do sort of with those who focus on the affordable housing side as well as more on the regulatory front, work better with the current heads of the various regulatory bodies.

Manus Clancy: Lisa, you talked about the CRE. CLO market that your industry serves both CMBS lenders, CMBS investors, as well as CRE CLO lenders. Does your outlook for the coming year for both CMBS and CE CLOs Tether together, should they both see similar outcomes? I know CEOs kind of dried up when rates picked up. Can you talk about what the next year will look like for them and what role will they play as the market continues to evolve over the next couple years? 

Lisa Pendergast: You know, the series CLO market is generally oftentimes non stabilized assets, and so you have to have sort of a good business plan and you know, that market is sort of, in my mind, a growing one that will continue to grow. One of the things that we're doing here at CREFC. It's all about when you think about the CMBS investor reporting package, the IRP, we are creating a similar function for CRE CLO such that there'll be better reporting on an ongoing basis. And that's important not only to people who are buying those CRE CLOs, but it's also important from an understanding as where is the risk. What are we seeing and the, and that's only going to come with more data on the underlying assets. So, are those transitional assets, are they getting to that stabilization point? And to me, this is sort of what CREFC is all about. When I was in the business, the investor reporting package was so amazingly helpful. It really created liquidity in the CMBS market that wasn't necessarily there to the extent that that IRP grew and became more useful to people. So did the CMBS issuance volumes in those buying bonds? And I suspect that for CRE CLOs in particular, that ongoing report as to how are the underlying assets of those transitional assets getting to the point are they on plan to stabilize as we expected? And so, to the extent that I think that's just going to be another tool that will heighten the liquidity in c CLOs. Now clearly there's always risk there, there are transitional assets. So, if I were buying those bonds, or you really need to do your due diligence to understand the plan, understand if the plan is reasonable in terms of stabilization. And so, yeah, it's, it's something in my mind where I would, if I were a bond buyer, you would want to be compensated, spread wise. For those, for the fact that they are more transitional than not. And so, at that point you probably would move from a series CLO to a CMBS. Once that stabilizes, there is a path and it becomes a, a big, I think, a bigger and better sort of ecosystem for the market and for, for institutional investor.

Manus Clancy: Do you see that perhaps as a, as a safety valve for those maturing loans that maybe are cash in, in the CMBS market, but are more suitable for a CRE CLO lender that's willing to take more risk and is more patient while an asset sees its revenue grow into something more substantial? Is that a, a safety valve that might be tapped in the near future?

Lisa Pendergast: It could be, I mean, clearly everything needs to pencil out, right? So, a loan's not going to go into the CMBS market unless there's some sense of stability, right? So, what was the plan? Are you close to the plan? And, and to the extent that anybody who's buying a CMBS, be it a SASB or a conduit deal, you really want to see those loans not only being stabilized, but I'd prefer not that they were stabilized six months ago. I'd rather see a refi. Where the cash flow is stable to growing as opposed to, you know, something that's been stabilized for three or four months. And I dare say that investors, institutional investors, will take a very hard look at that and may be willing to buy based on their analysis, but it's going to require a good, more sort of work, if you will, for those investors to get comfortable there. But I think that the series HELO market is, is a smart one. You know, there's, there's some risk there. I think you get paid for that risk because they are transitional and the closer that you get to stabilization, you know, then that's where the sort of the juice is for the investor. You now are dealing with much more of a stabilized asset and pool has matured. And then it soon will be paid off and, you know, it'll move into the CMBS market or some other CRE lender. So, I like the fact that there's this dual stabilized CMBS, be it Conduit or SASB, and then you have the, uh, the series CLL market that is, you know, that transitional, but it gives it a nice glide path, you know, to kind of get to stabilize and, and that's important and clearly from a performance perspective, if there's an issuer out there or a type of CLO where you're not seeing that happen. Folks will move away. And if they are seeing it happen in a good way and you've projected your sort of cash flow in a reasonable sort of, you know, sort of risk averse kind of way, then this market will continue to grow. And I, I think it's, it's a good one to be there. It just obviously has more risks than does say a, you know, stabilized asset that you would put in A-C-M-B-S deal or put on a balance sheet bodies.

Martha Coacher: We are a bit of an optimistic bunch here at LightBox, so we'd appreciate getting your perspective on what gives you the most optimism about the industry right now. 

Lisa Pendergast: I think I'm, I'm most optimistic in the way in which the, the industry is, is behaving. You know, I live through some of the, uh, more significant overreach on the underwriting side that has occurred over the, over the decades, the nineties, two thousands, like, and then obviously two thousands and all of that. But what gives me optimism is that the market has not only seemed to have listened and learned. But has stuck to it, and I've mentioned this already, so in my mind, underwriting remains sound and, and judicious, I think to the good. At some point the Fed might blink and, and begin easing, although I really can't say to you that that's something near term. And so, I am concerned about where we are. As I said, we have so many billions of loans that are maturing, and yet the math simply doesn't work. And so, the asset really needs to be performing well for the borrower to say, okay, I might be willing to put more cash into. To get to a point where, where loan makes sense. And so, we'll see some of that from a, from an asset type perspective. I think, you know, we're optimistic about a, a, a number of sectors. Retail, as I mentioned, seems to be turning sort of a leaf, if you will. And we're starting to see really focused professionals who are running these malls who, who own these companies. And I think that's a positive office. You know, again, is going to continue to be sort of, especially older vintage. I don't see them all converting to, to multifamily. I think in some cases we've seen a good amount of that. So here in New York, and there's been some regulatory changes here and elsewhere that might smooth that process. And to me, that is that office market right now is one of the bigger concerns that we have. What do you do with all that sort of aged office assets and does it create light in cities and, and it's a real issue anyway. Yeah, I, I think there's reason to, as we look ahead, to anticipate at some point, you know, right now I don't see a fed ease in, in the, in the making. And so. It means you suffer through where we are from a rate perspective, and I don't see that changing near term. And perhaps, you know, if we see a real downturn further than what we have, then you'll see that and, and that's going to be the linchpin to what I consider and where I live, which is in the finance side of the market, that it will make the math that much easier, which simply today really doesn't work unless there's money in or you are prepared to live with loan to value ratios that are quite high.

Dianne Crocker: Well, Lisa, I think your insights are helpful to our listeners who are out there trying to put today's interesting market and context. You as well as me and Martha and Manus have certainly watched our market through many different cycles in its history, and CREFC plays a very important role for the finance industry. So, I wanted to ask you for your thoughts on CREFC’s role. 

Lisa Pendergast: I think what CREFC brings to. So, sort of the industry is this ability to connect folks with others and to therefore sort of teach and cross teach, if you will, the various sectors of the business. And finally, I would just want, if I may, you know, CREFCs is broken down into these various forms that represent the various sectors of the business. And I think that that was not something necessarily that I did while I was here, but while I was on the board and all, we, we all had a hand in it. I think it is pretty genius in that it brings folks with similar focuses together and more importantly to hear different and disparate views of what's going on in that particular market. And so, the forum sort of structure in my mind has allowed us not only to continue to, to grow, but to thrive. Because if you're not, say in the CMBS market and you're a balance sheet lender, you're a life company or a bank, you know, you'll be involved in that particular forum. And so there's a lot of, the focus has been on CMBS, there are four forums associated with that, but it really does, I think, bring the sort of level of understanding of the market because you can focus on these sub-sectors just much higher and, and sort of the accessibility to what's going on in the market happens through those forums. And it also helps guide us from a regulatory and a legislative perspective of what's needed. 

Martha Coacher: Thank you, Lisa, for joining us today. Thanks to our producer Josh Bruyning. Please join us every week as our LightBox team shares CRE news and data in context. You can listen on any of your favorite podcast channels and send your comments or questions to podcasts@lightboxre.com. Thank you for listening. And have a great week. 

Manus Clancy: Let's go.