CRE Distress Decoded with Tammy & David Goldfisher—The Real Story Behind Loan Workouts, Distressed Assets & Capital Market Risk

Distress is building in the CRE market—and borrowers are running out of room as opportunistic investors prepare to jump in.  The power duo Tammy and David Goldfisher of The Henley Group join the LightBox team to break down what’s really happening behind the scenes with distressed commercial real estate assets, workouts, and the evolving capital markets landscape. With over 30 years of experience each in lending, advisory, and CMBS workouts, they specialize in helping owners navigate distressed assets and save their properties. They explain why we’re still early in the distress cycle, where borrowers are making critical mistakes, and how loan workouts today look very different from the COVID-era playbook. From the hidden risks in floating-rate multifamily loans to the long grind ahead for distressed office assets, they offer a clear-eyed view of where the cracks are widening—and what lenders want to see from borrowers now. 

Don't miss their take on why early engagement matters, where capital markets are surprising to the upside, and why this cycle will reward those who move early—not those who wait for a rescue.

01:26 Current Market Conditions and Distress 

02:09 Loan Maturity and Valuation Gaps 

04:38 Lender and Borrower Dynamics 

10:09 Valuation Disputes and Market Transparency 

14:25 Office Sector Challenges and Bright Spots 

18:51 Common Misconceptions in Special Servicing 

21:11 Optimal Timing for Borrower Engagement 

23:40 Market Forecast and Liquidity 

30:02 Unexpected Turnaround Stories 

Have questions for the pod team? Send them to Podcast@LightBoxRE.com. 

www.lightboxre.com

Transcript

The CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox

Episode 44: CRE Distress Decoded with Tammy & David Goldfisher—The Real Story Behind Loan Workouts, Distressed Assets & Capital Market Risk

May 2, 2025

Martha Coacher: This is the CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox a firm transforming the commercial real estate landscape by connecting every step of the CRE process with comprehensive tools and data. I'm Martha Coacher with Manus Clancy and Dianne Crocker for the week ending May 2nd, we're diving into one of the most critical and often misunderstood corners of CRE distress.

We're joined by industry experts, Tammy and David Goldfisher, a powerhouse duo at The Henley Group, known for their deep experience in workouts, restructuring and navigating the choppy waters of troubled assets. We're gonna talk about the CRE loan maturity wall valuation gaps, and what's going on with distressed assets.

Let me first give a little background. Co-founders and principals, Tammy and David, bring decades of real world deal making experience helping owners save their commercial properties. David has over 30 years of expertise in the CMBS industry with a career in both lending and advisory. And Tammy also has 30 years in commercial real estate finance. Tammy specializes in data analysis and customized solutions for CMBS workouts. Welcome Tammy and David. You're well known for your work on distress assets. What's the current temperature of the market from your vantage point right now? 

David Goldfisher: Yeah, it's definitely an interesting time. When we see folks in the industry at conferences and functions, they have been consistently saying to us for the last few years, wow, you're going to be very busy coming up. Wow, you must be very busy. And while that's absolutely the case, it is a cycle that has taken some time to enter. So we view where we're at today, as in the third or fourth inning of this cycle, and we're calling that the inflationary and higher interest rate cycle, where we're seeing significant office headwinds that's been spoken about for many years now. The maturity wall. Which you referenced, and we're also seeing a fair amount of multifamily distress. But that multifamily distress is interesting because it is limited generally to assets that have been purchased in recent years, recent five years, and many of them are in the floating rate market. So when those assets were acquired, borrowers expected a certain interest rate and a certain business plan to renovate the properties. What wound up happening in many cases is their capital that was scheduled to go to improvements went to pay higher interest rates or buy interest rate caps. So we are starting to see a fair amount of multifamily distress coming out of that. 

Manus Clancy: You mentioned that this has taken a long time to roll out. We saw that 9% CPI number almost three years ago, so we've been dealing with higher rates for quite a while. Why do you think it took so long or has taken so long to get to this point? Why hasn't it evolved quicker in your opinion?

David Goldfisher: You know, it's one of these situations where borrowers, generally speaking, we'll want to do everything they can to take care of their assets, to dig into their pockets. So we see, we've seen many cases where borrowers have gone into their pockets and are really hoping for that better day. I mean, if you look back a couple years, I think many in the industry felt that rates would be coming down, that it was just going to be a temporary thing. And with that, they continued to fund in and hoping rates and cap rates would come back down so they could finish their business plan, sell an asset, refinance an asset. But I think that time has really come to an end in many cases. 

Tammy Goldfisher,: And I would just add that I think that I would call this period a recalibration period. There's, you know, rates are likely not to come down as sharply and as quickly as some of our borrowers would like. But on the flip side, credit lenders are making loans, bank earnings for the top four banks are up, securitized issuance is that an all time, not an all time, but one of the all time high watermarks and really doubled what it was for the same period last year. So there's some good tailwinds in the industry as well. 

Dianne Crocker: We've all been through the commercial real estate market through various different cycles in our careers and it seems like it is natural to kind of opine on why this time is different. And David, you just hit on a couple reasons why this time is different, but I want to drill into that a little deeper and ask how are you seeing lenders and servicers approaching distressed office and retail in particular today differently than they did say in the 2020 market period?

David Goldfisher: Yeah, it's a very different time. The COVID-19 workout cycle had a fair amount of temporary relief of interest rates. Covid relief was a term that you would see all the time and loans were getting covid relief. They could get as much as 18 to 24 months in some cases, we saw of interest rate deferrals. On a more limited basis back then, we saw some discounted payoffs and resolutions happening where trusts and lenders would take losses. But largely it was more deferral. You know, in today's inflationary and higher interest rates cycle, we're seeing a lot of loan extensions, and that stands to make a lot of sense because of the maturity wall. Not just the fixed rate maturity wall which we're seeing now, but the floating rate has really come into the market as a big presence. And in some cases, those floating rate loans need to be extended multiple times. So there are differences in that regard. The other place, I'd say along those lines is lenders are really looking for borrowers to make significant reinvestments when they modify a loan. So you can get additional term borrowers wind up getting modifications, additional term interest rate changes, but lenders are not offering free options they're looking for significant capital to be redeployed. 

Tammy Goldfisher,: And I guess I would add to that, that you know, in 2020 responding to COVID, you saw forbearance, I would classify forbearance as a short term bandaid approach to some exogenous situation and particularly we saw it in the hospitality market, we saw it in the retail markets. Tenants not paying, nobody's coming to the hotels and traveling, et cetera. In this cycle it's a little more seasoned, right, because it's more of permanent or obsolescence, especially when we're talking about office product. It's not a bandaids not going to fix this. We're talking about triage to some of these office deals. So I'm expecting to see these deals kick around for a while. 

Dianne Crocker: What about the borrowers that you're talking to? I wonder what kind of advice you're giving them, Tammy and David, you know, they're facing a maturity wall, they're unsure of their refi options. What are you telling them? 

Tammy Goldfisher,: Yeah, I would say that a few things are key. We try to keep it a limited, straightforward message so they hear us and they don't get overwhelmed because many times when we are talking to borrowers who can't refinance or they've discovered they can't refinance in the last two minutes of the quarter, they're panicked. So we tell them, try to get out in front of your issues. Talk to your legal team or your accountant or an advisor, broker about what options you might have, and that runway is very important. And the other thing is really read your loan documents. Understand what you signed onto because what you signed onto when you took the loan has not necessarily come up and been an issue for you until now. And there are a lot of surprises with the loan documents and that will have a great impact on the borrower's personal guarantee situation, their leverage situation as they negotiate, their cash management situation. All of those can really hinder or cripple a negotiation and subsequently the borrower, unfortunately.

Manus Clancy: Let's stick on the rates for a second. I have a question to follow up on that. For the first time in a long time, during a period of distress, people are facing having to refinance from maybe a 4% handle on their rate into a 7% handle. So a loan that was DSCR positive today upon refinance could go DSCR negative. How is that changing the dynamic between borrowers and lenders and influencing the ability to extend that loan at the current rate, which allows it to stay again, cashflow positive? 

Tammy Goldfisher,: Yeah. I would say that there are loans that should not be and cannot be refinanced, even if it was at the same rate, some of the operational costs have really caused that borrower to miss the mark. And then there are those that are marginal. 200 basis points might make a big difference, and it might be the difference between being able to refinance and not put in a tremendous amount of equity, versus if it's 300, 350 basis points and the borrower has to dig into his pocket more, maybe that cash is unavailable. I would say that it depends on, it really goes back to the property, the capital that the borrower has to invest. And if the lender thinks if there's a negotiation there, if the lender thinks that the value of that property can make them whole, if they were to do, you know, seek another alternative in terms of a resolution. So I would say that there's just a lot of different things that come into play there, but rates have not helped the borrower. And you know, to, to some extent, they make advisors pretty busy. They keep advisors pretty busy. 

Dianne Crocker: So in a period like this where valuations obviously are changing quickly, they were a big issue last year. There's a little bit more price and clarity, I think, in the market, certainly than there was for much of last year. But I'm wondering how are valuation disputes shaping the negotiations that you're seeing? Are you still seeing those wider gaps between borrowers expectations and lenders expectations?

David Goldfisher: Yeah, I mean, I would say there still is that gap. Lenders often going to look at a much more optimistic view. If you're in a real workout, they're gonna suggest that there's not an impact to their value, to their position, and the bar side is gonna argue a lower value, you know, if they truly believe that. So they, they're definitely from the borrower lender standpoint. Yeah. That continues to be a battle a lender will, in a securitized world and a nons securitized world, lenders will almost always order appraisals and brokers opinion of value. They're not necessarily gonna share that with you. Typically, they won't share that information with you. So it takes some time for that to come out down the road where a borrower, when we make proposals for borrowers, we're putting forth, this is what we believe the value is, this is the business plan and this is where we think we can go with it. So there is a bit of a gap still in there. And that definitely presents challenges to negotiations, but something that has to be worked through over time. 

Manus Clancy: I'm curious, at the beginning of this cycle, there wasn't a whole lot of price transparency, especially in the office market. How do you guys navigate that when you're starting out a process with a borrower? That there is no benchmark, there is no metric for a Class B office in 2023. The market hasn't started to clear yet. How do you do anything beyond kind of sticking your finger in the air and trying to guess as to what these values are? 

Tammy Goldfisher,: One thing that we do is we highly recommend that the borrower orders a BOV or an appraisal. Whether that appraisal is going to be accepted by the lender or question by the lender. The lender will always do it, you know, their own independent appraisal. But let's start with some fact-based analysis. With our proposal that supports where we're going. The lenders especially in the securitized world, they don't want to take a big loss quickly. We know about the CCRs and the DCH, that there's, there are fees that go on to handle need loans and there is work for the services to handle these loans. And they're trying to not necessarily give up their control position. So sometimes appraisal reduction lags, and that's. The nature of the negotiation and you have to factor that in. But there's not a magic play to get around that other than continued discussion and dialogue. And over time, if circumstances change or if new valuation discovery points are presented, we just continue to have that dialogue to see if we can have a meeting of the minds. 

David Goldfisher: I would just add to that. That there are clear cases where a pro a loan is underwater and the property is not worth the debt. And that lender, whether it's A-C-M-B-S or a balance sheet loan, is going to take a loss at some point, whether it's today with the borrower, whether it's a no sale or whether it's down the road if they choose to foreclose on it. So our approach to that is to show the lender. A borrower's approach should be, show the lender why doing this deal will keep this value as high as possible and get a path back. 'cause the fact is that. If a property goes into foreclosure and it goes into purgatory, a term, I know you like, Manus, then equity capital is not going into the deal and it's gonna take some time. That is only gonna deteriorate value further and further and we see it. We studied an asset today in a major market that had value decline and value decline, and value decline. And at the end of the day servicers are doing what they can and what they believe is right to recoup highest net present value, but we still believe that those earlier deals are the best deals that lenders should take. 

Martha Coacher: Let's go back to office. The office sector has clearly dominated the headline. Are there any bright spots or surprising resilience stories that you're seeing on the ground? 

Tammy Goldfisher,: So one bright spot would be the actuality of decreased lease space by the federal government. You know, there's a lot of rhetoric out there about doge and reducing the government's footprint when in actuality the government's annual. Lease rents are 5.23 billion so far since this started, they've relinquished four assets and they've saved $11 million. So the headline does not match the reality. So if there is a bright spot about, there's not a lot of GSA space out there that has been vacated, I would say that would be a bit one.

One surprise. 

Manus Clancy: I have a question about the office space in general in that. The B and C space, the obsolete space really seems to be toxic right now in terms of nobody wanting that, right? The buyer of last resort being out there. Does that change the dynamic for you when you're negotiating with a lender, that the lender has somebody who's once interested in this property, he might be the only guy interested in this property. Does that make it different from other asset classes right now in terms of maybe the existing owner having a little bit more leverage? 

David Goldfisher: I would say existing owners are a better fit for getting to a higher price and a higher value for a lender. They've owned the property for a long time. It may be a legacy asset for them. There might be tax consequences. They have a reputation, so we definitely find with some of the weaker assets, borrowers, if they have the capital. The liquidity are willing to step up and write a check for what might be above a value of a property or do a deal that ascribes a higher value. But yeah, those, some of those assets are very complicated. One, one bright spot to also answer that question could be that. With some of the multi-family conversion. And I think that those are slow to go. Right. But the, some of them are definitely happening. It takes space off the market, and that could help the supply demand.

Dianne Crocker: Let's switch gears a little bit because I do wanna hear your thoughts on other asset classes. Retail's one that was really left for dead a few years ago, but we are starting to see some surprising strength in grocery anchor stores and strip malls. But I'm wondering what's your outlook for other commercial real estate assets going forward?

David Goldfisher: So we spoke about multifamily a little bit earlier and drew that conclusion. I think that there's gonna continue to be some stress there. There are a lot of transitions and properties that are having capital deployed into them, and we're seeing the inflation pressure and construction and the impact that, that the tariff rhetoric is having. That's gonna become challenging, I think, for that space. And can. Can people afford the rents that are needed? So I think that there's still headwinds there for that asset class. The other asset class we're starting to see, and we're expecting more over the next couple years is the hospitality space. You know, we saw, obviously we saw a tremendous wave of that in the previous cycle, five years ago. The covid cycle, you know clearly when your leases are one day. Then, your cashflow could go away instantly. And that's what happened, at that time, that sector has come back the last three, four years. It's definitely been driving back in the right direction. But one of the things that's helped that is the franchisors, I think, have allowed owners to push their pip, PIP improvements, right? Their property improvement programs and. The capital that needs to be redeployed into those assets eventually has to get done. When the franchise agreement is expiring, there's a significant amount of capital that needs to go back into that asset, and everything is a lot more expensive. So there's gonna be marginal assets that owners are gonna be questioning. Does it make sense to put money in or am I just quote unquote tossing the keys on this one? So I think hospitality is gonna be a problem. 

Martha Coacher: What's one common misconception borrowers or owners have when they enter special servicing or restructuring discussions? 

David Goldfisher: I think one of the biggest misconceptions that a borrower has, and it's kind of amazing to me at this point in our cycle and how many iterations we've had, but maybe that's because we are, we're very focused on workouts and that is that the time it takes to actually get something done. You know, and in particular when you're talking about the securitized world where a loan is in a pool that is governed by a pooling and servicing agreement, and that pooling and servicing agreement. Lays out all of the responsibilities for different parties, the master servicer, the special servicer bond holders. There are a tremendous amount of processes that have to happen and rules that have to be followed so that the pool can remain remic eligible, and that really can take. A loan and a workout that might otherwise, with a bank or a portfolio lender, three or four months, that could take a year, that could take 18 months depending on how much of a workout and a modification needs to get done. So I think the time and process is one of them. The other point I wanna make is often borrowers feel that lenders just wanna take their property, and I think that's the farthest thing from the truth. If the lenders generally securitize and not do not wanna take a borrower's property, they wanna get their loan repaid, they want to get their interest covered, and they want to get all their capital back. That's what their job is. And one more I have is we often have borrowers say to us when they're in default on a loan in talking about their reserves, that they'll say, well, those are my reserves. What do you mean I can't have access to them? Or we have to work to get access at them. When a loan is in default, those reserves become. Collateral or the loan is those reserves are always collateral for a lender. So there's an education process that we go through to bring borrowers up to speed on what can happen and what they need to do. 

Manus Clancy: So let me give you a couple of what ifs and maybe you can react with what is the optimal behavior on the part of a borrower. It's six months before maturity date. They know that they're somewhat to significantly underwater. When is the optimal time to reach out to somebody like the Henley Group to really start the process? And I would say the same thing. You found out that you're gonna lose a major tenant is gonna put a 40% dent in your rent roll. What is the optimal time to start engaging in these conversations? Bringing in an expert, getting the process started. 

David Goldfisher: Yeah, I mean, I think Tammy talked about it earlier. Runway, we talk about it all the time, and that's essentially your question. We love to see a transaction six months before an event is gonna occur. And if it's more we've done transactions where it's nine months before, that may be a little bit early, depending on the case, but I would say at least six months. It's not just time to work with the lender. 'cause that may not even wind up happening until you're a lot closer to maturity because. Securitized lenders have a lot of other problems going on. They don't want something until it's really a problem. But there are, there's a tremendous amount of groundwork that has to happen prior to, and the borrower has to learn a lot of things about the process. So we like to spend that early time, those first three or four months with a borrower. Getting everybody up to speed on what's gonna happen within the workout and what are the things that should be done. Tammy talked about the legal side. You know, working with borrower's counsel to understand exculpation language, un understand all kinds of things within loan agreements. 

Manus Clancy: How often does that really happen? How often are you playing the role of the emergency room doctor, getting the call in the middle of the night saying you gotta come in and do an appendicitis at 2:00 AM What's the normal case for you guys? 

David Goldfisher: Too often, way too often, and it's unfortunate. Normal case, you know, a few months. 

Tammy Goldfisher,: Yeah, and I think just to reinforce that there are lenders, depending on the lender and the asset manager, that take umbridge to the fact that you are asking for something and your loan is matured. You know? Where were you? You didn't realize you had a problem until the day you couldn't pay it off, and now you're making it my problem. So it's real. It's real, it's important. It shows that you are on top of things, that you're a good manager and operator, and it just sends the right positive message for the start of the negotiation to come.

Dianne Crocker: So let me ask the million dollar question, and I'm asking for selfish reasons because I have to write up market forecast for the next four to six months, and I'm wondering what both of you are thinking in terms of the outlook in capital markets. Are we going to see more distress? Will the pace pick up? Will it kind of continue to trickle in? What do you forecast? 

Tammy Goldfisher,: What I like about this market. Is of course there will be more distress because I liken the office workout scenario to the retail malls that never really quite got worked out, and I see the same malls 10, 15 years later. The reason being in my opinion, is their obsolete. Those properties aren't. Worth reinvesting in and there needs to be a change of purpose. So other than that, I feel like the securitized market is volume origination is much better than it was for the same time I. For the same period last year. SAS B's a dominant big deals, we're seeing a lot of big deals. They represent a high percentage of the volume spreads. Spreads are gonna change, I'd say week to week. You know, the last week the spreads kicked out a little bit on some aaas and the double Bs, maybe 138 bips for the double BS and maybe 48 50 bips on the aaas. But that will ebb and flow banks earnings. Top four banks, Wells and Bank of America City JP Morgan. Their earnings are up 1.4% in March, so I think there's some health there. I like the fact that there's transactions happening, there's sales volume, so I think we're in a decent spot. Other than if there's some exogenous event again, that changes, changes this market and topples this market, I'd call it something hyperbolic. And there's a few things out there that could do it. We just have to see if they come to fruition or not. 

David Goldfisher: I'll take a little bit of the other side of that. I mean, turbulent times are never good for CMBS, where market execution plays such an important role in pricing. So I think we're gonna continue to be in those turbulent times for a while to come call it. Certainly the rest of this year, capital markets are gonna be challenged. There's already a tremendous amount of loan maturities to handle, so borrowers will head back to banks and balance sheet lenders. It's true that large CHAS B deals are getting done, but I think just this last couple weeks we saw $2 billion worth of SASB loans go into special servicing. Some may be for the second time. So I think we have some wood to chop still. 

Manus Clancy: One of the positive call it trends maybe over the last two or three years or so compared to previous crises is the amount of liquidity that's been out there. Obviously we saw people pull back for years after the great financial crisis. At other times we've seen lenders stop lending maybe for brief periods after silicon bank failures. There's been a lot of negative headlines in our office and other things. Are you surprised at how liquid the market has remained even through turbulence, even through the negative office headlines, even through even Covid?

David Goldfisher: It doesn't really surprise me. The market always wants to gear up for the next cycle, get a lot of liquidity. Are they deploying that liquidity? Are they finding enough? Really good deals has, is there market capitulation that's happening so that those low price deals and deals that are sure winners a few years down the road, I don't know.

Tammy Goldfisher,: This is part of what others are missing. And it hearkens back to man's point about the liquidity because what others are missing is that the market is. Of an exogenous black swan event. The market is tremendously resilient, is my take and every cycle including this one, we get more calls about finding distressed assets for borrowers. And it never seems to come to fruition in the way that these sidelined borrowers with liquidity think it's going to play out. And I think the lenders are doing a good job across the board of managing how much. They turn the faucet on and off. And I think that for that reason, you know, they could dump a lot of properties if they wanted to, but they would flood the market and they would really hurt values. So I'm just impressed with the way the market works given all the various dynamics and stakeholders. 

Dianne Crocker: It makes sense. Is there anything else, you know, you're both sitting in this unique catbird seat and your points thus far have been really interesting because there are vantage points I think that a lot of us don't get from the headlines and the stories. Is there anything else that you're seeing or predicting that others you think in the market might be missing or overlooking? 

David Goldfisher: One thing we're consistently seeing that because of where we sit, that I'm not sure. Folks out there really appreciate is that we're talking to special servicers and other types of lenders every single day, and it's what we do. And in most cases, lenders want to figure out a way they know. They know that there's a problem, there's a problem on every deal on their plate. They want to figure out a way to make something work. So if they want, we help them write up their cases, and we give them the information that they need in order to support a case. So with a borrower that acts the right way. And can bring capital and business plan and expertise to the table. A lender wants to figure out a way to work with that borrower and to ultimately get paid back. So I think that's something out there that we see and it is encouraging to us. 'cause it means that we know we can get transactions completed. 

Martha Coacher: Our conversation today has been a really interesting pulling back of the curtain of what goes on behind the scenes, so we've taken a lot of value from it, and hopefully our listeners have, what's a story, without naming any names, obviously, that you'd like to share as an unexpected turnaround.

David Goldfisher: So I have a a story, a transaction. So we recently completed a office restructured transaction in a second tier Midwest market. Not the best market out there, but an a fantastic building, a top tier building in the marketplace. The loan consisted of two components. It had a large, highly leveraged first mortgage that was securitized, and it had a piece of mezzanine debt that was held outside of the securitization, and it was a floating rate transaction on both components, and the loan went into maturity default, and the B borrower over time was keeping the loan current, but after a while, cashflow eroded and they really couldn't do that. And we were able to negotiate a transaction where we brought new capital to the table for the first mortgage. For TI and leasing commissions, and those were significant and agreed upon a discounted payoff with the mezzanine component. So that cleaned it up in terms of only having the first mortgage on it. So the first mortgage likes that better. The borrower likes that better, and it was at a price that made sense for all parties. The unexpected twist happened when we got a couple months from closing where the borrower was able to bring a new lead tenant to the property. So a significant a hundred plus thousand square foot tenant became an anchor for the building. And really what it did for the borrower was it de-risked the transaction incredibly 'cause they had in their business plan that they were eventually gonna find somebody and then they were able to find it. So we shared this information with the lenders and they saw how much capital was required and that capital was coming in. So it was a great story. That really saved this transaction.

Tammy Goldfisher,: And also to add, that was a legacy asset that had been in the family for generations, and it made it all that more special for them to be able to keep that asset. 

Manus Clancy: I'm a sucker for a happy CRE story. I gotta say, David and Tammy, if listeners wanna reach out to you, learn more about you, get ahold of your research, how should they do so? 

Tammy Goldfisher,: The best is to visit us at www.thehenleygroup.com. We put out a monthly newsletter and we have insights that will help borrowers whether they have a healthy loan or a challenged loan or a loan in workout. Also, we wanted to thank you guys for having us today. This was a really special time with old friends. You guys are colleagues, and more importantly, just people that we really like to talk to and be around. So thank you. 

Martha Coacher: Our pleasure. I hope the listeners learned a lot from today's session. And that's a wrap on this week's episode of The CRE Weekly Digest podcast. A big thank you to Tammy and David for sharing their invaluable perspective on workouts, distress, and what's really happening in today's capital markets. Thanks to our producer Josh Bruyning. Please join us every week as our LightBox team shares CRE news and data in context. You know, you can listen and subscribe on any of your favorite podcast channels and send your comments or questions to podcast@LightBoxre.com. Thank you for listening and have a great week.

Manus Clancy: Let's go.