Signals, Slowdowns, and Surprises Kick Off the Final Month of 2025

This week, Manus Clancy and Dianne Crocker unpack a whirlwind of mixed, and often contradictory, market signals. The Fed’s Beige Book depicts an economy stuck in neutral, while the latest ADP report delivered the weakest private-sector payroll print since spring 2023, reigniting concerns about a potential labor-based recession. At the same time, markets are pricing in an 87% probability of a December rate cut at next week’s meeting, and equities are staging a renewed risk-on rally.

Against this backdrop, Manus and Dianne discuss why forecasting in today’s murky market environment demands more caveats than ever. They explore CRE’s emerging “too cheap to ignore” moment as institutional buyers re-engage, the ongoing reset in multifamily rents, and why high-cost metros continue to lead the office-to-resi conversion wave. Fresh industrial signals suggest the sector’s long bull run may be giving way to a more selective market. And the latest LightBox CRE Activity Index adds further nuance with a modest 6% drop that reflects a milder-than-usual seasonal slowdown, signaling that CRE momentum is not moving in lockstep with the broader economy. From distressed multifamily absorption patterns to new Fannie/Freddie cap increases and office trades ranging from a rare SoHo profit to a steep Midtown discount, this episode captures a week defined by contradictions, recalibration, and emerging opportunities.

00:59 Analysis of Labor Market Trends
05:07 CRE Insights
09:37 Multifamily Market Challenges
14:35 LightBox Data Dive
19:21 Office and Industrial Market Updates
30:19 Office-to-Resi Conversions
32:18 Fannie and Freddie Loan Purchase Caps

Have questions for the pod team? Send them to Podcast@LightBoxRE.com.

www.lightboxre.com

Transcript

The CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox
Episode 75: Signals, Slowdowns, and Surprises Kick Off the Final Month of 2025
December 5, 2025

Alyssa Lewis: This is the CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox from transforming the commercial real estate landscape by connecting every step of the CRE process with comprehensive tools and data. I'm Alyssa Lewis with our experts, Manus Clancy and Dianne Crocker. In the news this week, markets are leaning toward a December rate cut, with CME FedWatch showing an 87.4% probability, but mixed economic signals continue. The Fed's beige book just came out describing economic activity across as largely flat, with mixed signals in consumer spending, hiring and manufacturing across the 12 Districts. The ADP Jobs report revealed, once again more weakness in the labor markets. November private payrolls unexpectedly fell by 32,000, the largest drops in spring 2023, and led by steep small business job cuts. Macy's posts strongest growth in more than three years, but strikes a cautious note on holiday spending. And shares of Microsoft fell on reports that its AI sales were falling short of its goals. Manus, what's your take on the week's market news? 

Manus Clancy: Well, there was a lot of countervailing wins, if you will. Some positive, some negative, and I think it left us as unclear about the future as we were last month and the month before. So let's kind of peel this back. The one big negative we've had in the economy, the US economy since the summer, has been the labor markets. We saw some negative, or disappointing, I should say, unemployment reports over the summer that kicked off concern that we could see a labor based recession start in 2025 or 2026. We've seen these negative ADP reports, The weekly ones come out for several weeks in a row. This one being the worst one in several years. So all of that leads to concern that perhaps the US economy is heading for rockier days. Those were some of the headlines that really caught my eye. You talked about Macy's, if there was one headline which captured the countervailing winds better than any it's that Macy's headline, strongest growth in more than for years, but a cautious note on holiday spending. They're concerned that perhaps the consumer is tapped out. The beige book numbers largely flat. Nothing to write home about. Not very exciting. When you're seeing things flat, you're not thinking, this is a growing US economy. So all of that is on the negative side of the ledger. On the positive side, what was a very brief NASDAQ correction seems to be behind us now that we saw stocks rally early in the week. People seem to be back to the risk on state of mind and we are just grinding it out in terms of market activity. If there's one more silver lining from this week, it was that that negative jobs print from ADP triggered a drop in long dated treasury yields. We saw the yield on a 10 year drop from about 4.11 to about 4.05, and people are starting to recall that mantra, bad news is good news. And some of that rally we saw this week was a function of people saying, here we go, rates are gonna go below 4%. People are gonna pile into US stocks and the bull market will take off again. So it's very hard to get your arms around where exactly we're living, even though I am almost always a glass half full guy, I am right now equally divided between positive and negative. I could see us having a jobs based recession next year. I could also see us muddling through. Dianne? 

Dianne Crocker: Yeah, I think so Manus, I think a lot of what we're reading in the tea leaves now really speaks to the importance of any forecasting being done with a lot of caveats and a lot of alternate scenarios. You know, it seems like November and now it's continuing into December is a series of weeks where the data, the fed, the markets, everybody seems to be having slightly different conversations. And now the market, as you said, Alyssa is leaning harder toward a December rate cut, but our loyal listeners might remember it was only two weeks ago that the probability expectations for December Fed rate cut were 50 50, like a coin toss, and now the odds are over 80% for a cut, which would've sounded bold a month ago but now it's like the market's figuring it's almost baked in. You know, I think the beige book this week was certainly aptly named, basically saying that the economy's stuck in neutral. And I agree, I think Macy's commentary was really interesting because it was kind of an assessment that things are okay now but they're a little concerned long term. So I am very curious about how the retail season shakes out in terms of retail spending. I think discounters will see a better season maybe. But I'll give you one thing for your glass half full side Manus, and that was an article, I'm not sure if you saw, but it was in the Wall Street Journal this week by Carol Ryan, and the headline was, commercial real estate is getting too cheap to ignore. And the point was along the lines of us. Theme that we've talked about here, which is when you can't guarantee that property prices will appreciate, then it becomes really about asset management. And Ryan's point in the article was after years of low returns, portfolio managers are starting to rethink their commercial property holdings. The article definitely took a surprisingly optimistic take saying that after years of pain, real estate may finally be priced low enough to really attract back the institutional buyers and we are already seeing that in the stories that we talk about here on the pod week after week. But I think, you know, the mindset is shifting too, where, as I just said, if you can't bank on automatic appreciation, if you can't count on cheap debt, then where do your returns come from? They come from income generation from the property. So I just wanna point out, she pointed out, Assets that are particularly attractive in terms of asset management and returns are senior housing, retail, and well located offices, which I don't think we would've seen in a story a year or two ago. And then last Manus, I want your take on this. She highlighted a historical echo, which is in the late nineties, and I know you like these historical looks back Manus in the late nineties. Real estate lagged badly while everyone was chasing tech until the bubble burst, and then property became a safe haven almost overnight. So now we're starting to kind of see headlines and cracks about AI investments, and maybe that means commercial real estate is setting up for a similar moment. If the tech wave cools. What do you think? 

Manus Clancy: Well, you've given me an awful lot to react to and I have a lot of thoughts going through my mind. I was just, as you were saying this, I was looking through my LinkedIn because I saw a notification today and I wish I could find it. I know it was the head of CRE investment, an Invesco recently promoted. By the way, congratulations for that. Although I can't find the notification right now, so I can't attribute it to a name, but his notification was that CRE returns have been very disappointing compared to other asset classes for the last, let's call it 18 months or so, and he did a historical analysis and he said, when we have moments like this, usually that's followed by extraordinarily strong returns for CRE and.

I wish I could find it, and if I do find it, I'll either mention it today or I will mention it next week. But it was from Invesco and it was a great analysis and I think it tethers very closely to what you and I have been saying, that while tech has taken off, while the AI trade has led to extraordinary returns over the last six months, CRE has been largely neglected and I think that it offers a great deal of opportunity on several fronts. Number one, I think we haven't seen the froth in the market, so it's a good entry point for people right now. People can really dive in and acquire things at attractive prices. I do think it provides you near term visibility, right? Rents are rents. Future rents are future rents, right? You know where markets are trading these days. It's a very transparent market. Much more so than this AI trade. How much is Microsoft gonna spend? How much is Google gonna spend? What is their return on investment going to be? And I do think that savvy investors, savvy market allocators are coming around to this conclusion that the premium you're getting over, let's say typical fixed income with the potential for rent growth in the future is intriguing.

Is it a slam dunk? Is it something which is gonna return 30% like the AI trade has over the last six months? Certainly not. Will it be a great defensive place to be? Should we hit a recession or should there be a sell off in equities? I think so in spades. So that would be my takeaway. And like I said, if I could find the, the research, I'd like to refer to it.

Lemme pivot to something that I have to say I've been quite negligent in talking about over the last three or four months. I, because I am a glass half full guy, I tend to talk about things that are positive stories, capital availability, the ability for borrowers to get construction loans, conversion loans, the fact that we are seeing office values seem to bottom that transactions are picking up. So I tend to clinging to these stories that are glass half full, but. I did wanna point out one this week. It comes from Diana Olick, who does great reporting for CNBC. It's the CNBC property play, which she does frequently, and I think she's now turned it into a newsletter. But one of her reports this week, this came out on Tuesday, apartment rents dropped further with vacancies at record highs, the multifamily vacancy rate in November nationally, 7.2% according to her data, and we saw a 1% drop in median rent for apartments between October and November nationwide. So why bring this up? Well, one reason is this story has been out there for a while, that multifamily as a result of overbuilding in 2023 and 2024 has been not under siege, but struggling. It's been a market that has seen a lot of inventory growth as a result for people that had been counting on value appreciation in order to refinance, have not seen the value appreciation that they were counting on. It's been kind of a slog, and I had a couple of moments this week. One, I was playing golf with a fellow from Denver and I said, you know, how is that Colorado multifamily market doing? And he basically said, we're making it through, we're muddling through, but nothing is great, right? The inventory is high. Rent growth is modest, if any, and it's been a challenging couple years. And I was out with a guy in the Texas market who kind of said the same thing that, you know, if this is a case of the Python consuming the rabbit, the rabbit's only halfway through the snake. That we are halfway through the process right now and until we start to see the benefits of new construction tailing off in 25 and new permitting tailing off in 2026. It'll be hard to see a leg up. And so that's the other side of the coin right now. And, and I felt, especially with Dianne's reporting, obligated to really talk about that. 

Dianne Crocker: And I think in any case, Manus too, like generalizations require a bit of a caveat because I think in multifamily, as in many other segments of commercial real estate, there's a huge differentiation across markets. You know, you just mentioned a couple points of contact and other metros, but there's a lot of variables at play, but a lot of differentiation from metro to metro. You know, you're seeing like metros, like Austin, like Boston, like Las Vegas could be seeing some of the steepest rent drops, but there are Midwest metros that are actually attracting more renter demand. So, you know, I think for investors, obviously it means buyer beware. The national averages can hide a lot of volatility. And I think in a market as differentiated as this one, it really requires real homework on the side of investors. You know, what's the supply pipeline? What's construction doing? What are the job drivers? Are you in a market where young renters are moving back home in large numbers because they can't afford housing? So it's an interesting market, but it was a good study from Diana. Olick. 

Manus Clancy: If I can give a tout to Diana, I have to say, if you can get on her distribution list for that property play email is probably a nice thing to have in your inbox. But to put a bow around this particular segment, to tie together the two things we've talked about, underappreciated CRE and the opportunity for future growth and this research put out by CNBC. I will say this, in her research, in Diana's research, she points out that REITs like Avalon Bay, Camden Property, Equity Residential, all big apartment REITs down double figures or considerably more than double figures in 2025. So when you consider the deep discounts, they're selling at the lack of enthusiasm. At some point soon, the fact that we haven't seen a lot of new development in 2025 or 2026 should turn a headwind into a tailwind. And just something to think about for our audience out there that when you consider both sides of the equation, at some point there has to be a reversion to the mean.

Dianne Crocker: Definitely a dramatic reset underway. It'll be interesting to watch that one. 

Alyssa Lewis: Dianne, let's pivot to this week's LightBox data dive. What do you have for us? 

Dianne Crocker: So our November commercial real estate activity index is in and in November it slipped from 106.2 in October to 99.4. That was a 6% month over month drop, which sounds rough until you remember that the typical November seasonal drop is usually closer to 14%. So yes, activity cooled a bit, but it cooled far less than it normally does. And in a month where the macro picture looked like a blinking dashboard, we saw weak job prints, we saw cool enough inflation, and we saw some markets kind of struggling to find their footing. The index shows that commercial real estate is not really moving in sync with everything else. So, you know, amid everything else that's been going on, commercial real estate held up better than expected, we're still just below three digits, which is healthy. And I'll note that we're well above where it was a year ago, which was just 83.3. What do you think, Manus? 

Manus Clancy: I think it's of a piece of the things we've been talking about this entire podcast, that there's good news and bad news, and if you're bullish there's something in there for you. If you're bearish, there's something in there for you as well. And so if you're bullish, the headline is yes, the index drops 6%, but it's nowhere near what we've been seeing in the past, which is 14, 15, 16% drops in November and December and so forth. So you could look at the glass as half full in that regard. For somebody like me who thought what started as a solid move in the right direction from April until October would accelerate in November and December, which we've seen at times in some years, we've seen the historical norms defied. I thought by now we would see lower interest rates. Lower interest rates would lead to more optimism, and the trickle of improvement we saw over the summer would lead to more of a deluge. I've been on the record as saying this for a long time, so the fact that we've stepped backwards over the last two months is a little contrary to what I expected and a little bit glass half empty for me. So hopefully these are seasonal blips and the market is ready to roar back. After the new year, we can only hope so. But for right now, I have to say I'm a little disappointed. 

Dianne Crocker: Well, I might disappoint you more Manus by saying that I looked back at last year's numbers for November to December, and the index went down by 20 points in the final month of the year. That was largely due to a decline in property listings. But then in the final two weeks of last year, we saw a dramatic spike in listings. So we'll see if that plays out differently this year. 

Manus Clancy: Yeah. The one thing we have different this year than last year, I think is last year we were coming off an election, and I think that that election had a lot of people stalling in terms of should they put a property out for listing? Where's this thing going? What's gonna happen? And then by the time the dust settled, we're in late November, we have the holidays, and we didn't see that resurgence take place until after the new year last year, which I guess kind of makes it a little bit more disappointing, right? We didn't have a major election this year, although we did have a government shutdown. We shouldn't have had this uncertainty. I would've hoped that, like I said, the trickle of improvement that we saw in the spring, which turned into a heavier improvement over the summer, honestly, would lead to a real strong end of the year, but it's not really playing out that way. 

Dianne Crocker: Yeah, I know it's definitely keeping us guessing, but that's an important point in terms of the post-election hesitation because this time last year there were so many headlines swirling about what the Trump administration would mean in terms of federal policy. So I think it's fair to say that gave the market a an excuse to hit the brakes a little bit. 

Alyssa Lewis: Okay, time for our did you know for the week, Dianne, what are you seeing at the metro level? 

Dianne Crocker: On a metro level, the volume of environmental due diligence, this is year to date, over the first 11 months of the year, the US benchmark is that volume was up 14%, and I looked at the primary metros that were outperforming that US average by factor of two or more. And those high growth metros are New York City, which we talk about a lot here. Volume there is up 45% year to date. Houston is in second with 30% and your very own Philly, Alyssa volume's up 27%. So you're in a high growth market. 

Alyssa Lewis: All right, let's jump to what headlines caught your eye this week, starting with a few office stories. Manus? 

Manus Clancy: Yes. The first one we'll start with is from Mark Hallum of Commercial Observer. Here Scholastic sold a building at 555-557 Broadway in Manhattan's Soho neighborhood, selling it to Empire State Realty Trust for almost $400 million. Why did this one catch my eye? Scholastic acquired the property a little over 10 years ago for $255 million. So it is selling it for about a $130 million profit. Something we don't really see every day in the office segment. In fact, we see it very rarely, right? This is about a 50% uptick in improvement. The property is located between Spring and Prince Streets, in kind of lower Manhattan, in that Soho neighborhood. The building has about 370,000 square feet of office, some street level retail, and about 70% of the building is leased, including about two thirds of it to Scholastic. So somebody here sees this as an opportunity. I know retail in the Soho market goes for a king's ransom. So that was probably part of the allure with the 70% occupied probably the opportunity to build out creative offices also quite possible there too. But anytime we're seeing offices sell for a 50% improvement over the last 10 years, that's a true unicorn. Sticking with the New York centric theme of our office, this is the other side of the coin. This reporting is from Anthony Russo of GlobeSt. EYN Holding, it's EYN, Axonic Capital and AM Management have acquired 114 West 41st Street in Midtown Manhattan, paying 133 million for the property. The seller there, Clarion Partners. The property was bought in 2018 for 282 million and after five years, six years of ownership, the sale represents a discount of about 53% from that 2018 valuation. The sale includes the assumption of a $141 million loan from MetLife that was originated seven years ago. So we have the scholastic sale, that's the glass half full here. This is much more common in the office space, seeing things sell for fractions of what they did five to 10 years ago, in this case, EYN, Axonic, and AM Management acquiring the property for a 53% sale price discount. 

Dianne Crocker: Certainly not a fire sale, but definitely distressed pricing and the fundamentals aren't terrible. You know, it's got upgraded amenities. It's 70% plus leased to strong tenants, and what I read was that unlike many of the Midtown office assets, the new owners aren't planning a conversion. The plan is that it stays office. So I think in the broader market, this sale kind of fits a pattern that we've been talking about over the past few months that Manhattan office trades are picking up. And I think it's deals like this that keep Manhattan in the list of top metros that are driving environmental due diligence, as I just talked about this year, as well as ultimately commercial real estate deals. And so they're moving, but they're just not at valuations that anybody expected just a few years ago. 

Manus Clancy: And we had a third one, which I would say is glass middle, right? We have to come up a name. You're not half full, you're not half empty. We have to have something, maybe we'll have a contest with our listeners to come up with something that is appropriate for the glass being neither half full or half empty. This one comes from Elizabeth Cryan of The Real Deal. In this case, the William Macklowe Company acquired a $46 million distress note on the 129,000 square foot office building at 291 Broadway in Lower Manhattan. They bought the note from Flagstar Bank. The owner of the building now is Sutton Management, which is facing foreclosure on this particular Class B property. So two angles here. Angle number one, we've talked about this in the past, developers buying notes to jump the line so that they could foreclose our property that they want. This is likely a candidate for office to resi conversion. So the glass half full part of this story is we have another case of a developer looking at a property, wanting to buy the asset and is licking his chops to convert this from office to residential. The other side of the coin is there is a lender and an owner here that has a distressed note that's probably looking at a loss of equity and or a loss in terms of return of principle on that note with this thing likely to sell at a discount. So three big New York Stories this week.

Alyssa Lewis: Okay, Manus, let's jump to industrial. What's making headlines this week? 

Manus Clancy: Yes, the headline here, EQT Real Estate strikes the largest industrial transaction of 2025. Anthony Russo, again of GlobeSt with the reporting here. In this particular case, the Pennsylvania based EQT is selling a 25 asset portfolio, almost 9 million square feet. According to EQT, this is the largest industrial transaction made this year. The price wasn't disclosed. Most of the properties built after 2000 and are located in 13 key markets, including New York, Phoenix, Atlanta, and Texas. So why do I see this as a negative story? It goes hand in hand with another story we're gonna talk about in a moment. When you see somebody like EQT taking money off the table, and when you see them taking off money off the table at this kind of size, you ask yourself, is this trade, is investing in industrial properties, which has been so profitable for developers, owners, buyers since 2015, is the trades starting to get tired? Do you want to be the guy buying properties when EQT is selling them at such large levels? I don't know. I've been kind of waiting for this moment for a long time. I felt like so much inventory had come online and the bull market in industrial had taken on such a life of its own for the last 10 years that I felt like at some point this was due to need a timeout. Maybe this is the timeout. I guess time will tell, right? The other story we have is from The Real Deal, Francisco Alvarado and here the story, the headline is, Prologis sells fully leased industrial assets for 53 million in a, and I'll put air quotes around this "softening market". So The Real Deal is calling this market in Southern California, somewhat tired. In this particular case, Prologis is selling properties at 2501 to 2555 Davie Road in Davie to pharmaceutical firm Arnet. The deal breaks down to $267 per square foot. And I'm sorry, this is in Florida, by the way, Davie's in Florida, not in Southern California. But when they call this a softening market, and you see Prologis selling assets along with the EQT story, it begs the question, are the smartest guys in the room calling a top for the market? Love to hear from listeners as to their opinion of this and Dianne, I'd love to hear your opinion as well. 

Dianne Crocker: Yeah, I'll jump in on the EQT story because what jumped out at me is that EQT for them, the sale is part of a broader strategy. Over the past two months, they've sold more than 13 million square feet of stabilized logistics facilities, and they've reinvested in nearly 5 million square feet of newer, better, more advanced warehouses that have bigger ceilings. And it, it kind of brought to mind a comment that Ryan Severino at BGO made when he was on our pod earlier this year. You know, where he said like, technology has impacted warehouses and industrial facilities in a really big way. And the term that he used was today's developments are not your grandmother's warehouses and industrial and distribution facilities. You know, so it sounds like EQT is getting that memo and trading out of older assets and rotating to invest in the next generation of logistics inventories. Kind of a harvest and recycle move.

Manus Clancy: I guess maybe the two go hand in hand, the two thoughts. And that is, whereas you could have owned anything in industrial 10 years ago and made money now because we've seen such a long bull market and because things are getting more saturated, people will have to be more discriminating, right? That people will have to tighten their spreadsheets, you know, really kind of pick their assets more carefully now than perhaps 10 years ago. I did wanna bring up one second comment about this particular segment about industrial. And I'll go back to another CNBC property play segment that Diana Olick put out this week. In her piece this week about industrial, she noted that the warehouse sector of industrial is seeing a rebalance, and that's her word, rebalance. The sub headline, warehouse real estate supply and demand is starting to come into balance. In some markets, rents are falling slightly due to oversupply. This is really not a headline we've seen in a really long time, and it may be of a piece with the other stories we're seeing. Softening markets, people looking to transition out of certain areas into others. Something to watch over the next six months that the easy money has probably been made in industrial, and the next 10 or 20% gains will be a little bit harder to come by. 

Dianne Crocker: And that not every asset is created equal, you know? And the story that you just shared about the EQT portfolio, interesting that the price was not disclosed, but doesn't that make you wonder, was it sold at a discount? Did they make a profit on it? Certainly, the more technologically advanced properties will look more appealing to investors. I think in industrial things like e-commerce is a strong driver, onshoring is starting to boost demand. But again, not every asset is created equal. And if this sector is resetting, then it's buyer beware.

So you mentioned the office to resi topic earlier, Manus, and so many of the stories that we talk about on that front are in New York City, and there was a Wall Street Journal article this week about why those projects tend to work better in New York, where the average rent for a one bedroom is upwards of 4,500, which makes the economics work a little better perhaps than some other metros. But there was a headline this week about an office to resi project that was not in New York City. It was in Newport Beach, California, and that story was Irvine Company got the okay for a 700 unit office to resi plan in Newport Beach. It was approved by the Newport Beach City Council and they are converting a 19 acre MacArthur Court office park into a mixed use residential complex, which is very near to the small but charming John Wayne Airport. And you know, I think it's part of a broader wave of office to resi conversions across high cost metros. And Manhattan is obviously high cost. Newport Beach certainly is, and there's a push to really meet aggressive state housing mandates while rethinking office campuses that have maybe kind of aged out of the market.

Manus Clancy: Not too many nicer places to live than Newport Beach. I thought this was an interesting story. The LA Times, I believe was the first one to report this, that it's kind of win-win. That the approval to do this office to resi plan also included an agreement by Irvine to build some affordable housing in the area as well. So, Irvine gets to have their conversion opportunity, which is a win for them. The area gets some more affordable housing commitments from that company as well. And a terrific outcome should Irvine be able to come through and pull this off. Dianne, I know you had some commentary also on Fannie and Freddie caps. Why don't you walk us through what you saw this week and how that impacts the market? 

Dianne Crocker: I know we have some listeners who support GSE lending in the multifamily space. So there was a headline that we wanted to make sure that we shared with everybody, and that was that the FHFA just raised their loan purchase caps for both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to $88 billion each for next year. And that is up 20% from 73 billion this year. And you know, it's an important move. I think it signals confidence that multifamily debt will expand next year as interest rates ease, as the pace of loan maturities pick up, and I think the higher caps ensure liquidity that's needed for apartment financing. I think for anybody who supports multifamily lending, this is an important development and it's certainly a positive one. 

Manus Clancy: We love our positive stories. 

Alyssa Lewis: And on that note, let's wrap with our slice of life. What do you have for us, Dianne? 

Dianne Crocker: This week one thing that caught my eye on LinkedIn was from a guy I follow, his name is Gregg Katz. He's a great follow on the retail side. Always a lot of fun and and informative. But this week he posted on LinkedIn, a comparison of which malls across the US offer the best mall walking workout. And the longest mileage award of 5.5 miles goes to the American Dream Mall in the Meadowlands, which, you know, 5.5 miles is not trivial. That's longer than the 5K turkey trot I did. 

Manus Clancy: I wonder about this. When people are doing their mall workouts, are they saying I have to go to the mall, I may as well do a workout? Or do people go to the mall with the expectation, I'm not buying anything, I'm just getting my workout in. What is the angle here?

Dianne Crocker: I only have a sample of one, and that's my mother-in-law. And she goes to the mall specifically to exercise and not buy anything, and she meets with her friends. So it's very social. But she does not spend a penny. 

Alyssa Lewis: Alright well, with that, we'll close thank you to our producer, Josh Bruning. Please join the LightBox team every week as they share CRE news and data in context. You can listen on any of your favorite podcast channels and send your comments or questions to podcast@LightBoxre.com. As always, thank you for listening and have a great week. 

Manus Clancy: Let's go.