The Current
We're seeking inspiration toward deeper discipleship through conversations with people working toward justice, cultivating deep spiritual practices, forming community and connection in significant ways, and helping one another heal from trauma. As we follow Christ to the margins of society, to the wounded and grieving, and into the hard work of peacemaking, we find that we are not alone on this journey. Join us to resist despair, and to regain some hope in the world, in the church, and in Christ.
Most weeks, Pastor Chris Nafis is talking with scholars and practitioners who are inspiring and faithful, and some weeks Pastor Chris is engaging with the book of Acts. Each week, we find the Spirit calling us deeper into the death and resurrection of Jesus, into a life with God, and into loving one another well.
This is a ministry of Living Water Church of the Nazarene, which gathers in San Diego's East Village, the epicenter of homelessness in this city. We are committed to meaningful worship, community formation, and service. Join us sometime :)
The Current
Isaac Villegas - Migrant God: A Christian Vision for Immigrant Justice
When a church gathers to wash feet at an immigration detention center, is it worship or protest? According to Isaac Villegas, it's both - and that's precisely the point. In this profound conversation, Villegas shares stories from his new book "Migrant God: A Christian Vision for Immigrant Justice," revealing how authentic Christian practices become revolutionary acts in contexts of injustice.
Drawing from his experiences as a Mennonite pastor and the child of Latin American immigrants, Villegas takes us inside the remarkable two-year sanctuary his congregation provided for Rosa del Carmen Ortez Cruz, an undocumented woman facing deportation. With a host of volunteers coordinating everything from grocery delivery to laundry service, this community demonstrated what it means to truly be the church rather than simply attend one. "Rosa believed in the church with her life," Villegas observes, noting how her trust challenged the congregation to live up to its calling.
The conversation explores how traditional Christian practices take on profound political dimensions when performed in contested spaces. Whether conducting communion as a shared meal or washing feet outside detention centers, these acts embody an alternative vision of community that challenges dehumanizing systems. Villegas argues that Christians don't need to "translate" their faith into political action - they simply need to practice it faithfully in public.
With remarkable candor, Villegas also reflects on Martin Luther King Jr.'s final, undelivered sermon titled "Why America May Go to Hell" and what it means to maintain hope while acknowledging harsh realities. He suggests that Christian hope isn't based on political optimism but on the resurrection - the ultimate sign that seemingly impossible transformations remain possible even in dark times. Those seeking authentic ways to connect faith with justice will find this conversation both challenging and deeply encouraging.
Hi, welcome back to the Current. This is Chris Nafis, and today I'm very honored to have Isaac Villegas come and join me on the show. He is an ordained pastor in the Mennonite Church USA, served at Chapel Hill Mennonite for a number of years and currently on break to finish up his PhD at Duke. He wrote a book that's coming out right about now called Migrant God a Christian Vision for Immigrant Justice. It's very good. He writes for the Christian Century and just a very thoughtful, faithful guy that has lived out the faith in ways that I find really inspiring. We'll talk about some of those in today's episode. Hope that you'll enjoy it and here it is All right. Well, isaac, I'm really grateful that you said yes to come on here. Thank you so much for giving us a little bit of your time and your wisdom and your expertise.
Isaac Villegas :Thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you, chris.
Chris Nafis:I'm excited for this uh, I I feel like we've known each other sort of for like a long time, like we run in some of the same circles, both kind of around duke and durham, and uh, you just like the people that I know that you also know are like amazing people, and so it's just been good to be in touch over the years, love your writing, just just really appreciate you.
Isaac Villegas :That's very kind. Thank you, very kind of you.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, you got a book coming out that I got some advanced access to. I was really excited to read it. I read it in like just a few days called Migrant God a Christian Vision for Immigrant Justice. In like just a few days, called Migrant God a Christian Vision for Immigrant Justice, and I mean the book is sort of about migration and migration justice and immigration justice. It's sort of showing, it's about showing up on behalf of people who are migrants. Right, it's kind of this blend. And you yourself grew up like child of immigrants and kind of in this world and obviously like faithful pastor in the church. Like what, what did you learn researching and writing the book? Like what was, what was there for you in this?
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, that is so true, like I would say, you know, in terms of what motivated me, and like you know well, I should say for myself, it's, it's hard to write, like I am not a natural writer, it's just something that I have to do, like it's very hard, like writing, I mean you finish the book in a few days because it's it's pretty short. Yeah, it's a glorified pamphlet. Let's say it's a glorified pamphlet. Let's say, but, um, it started off longer and I just, the more I read it, the more I like chop stuff down because I get really frustrated with being verbose and I don't know. But, like, what ends up happening is I start writing and I I get drawn into the story and like I start remembering stuff. And so, you're right, like I, I revisited my part of my life, part of growing up, things that I just don't remember.
Isaac Villegas :Uh, brown people, um, in you know, the southwest, let's say california, arizona, that's where I grew up. I remember, like, as I was thinking about writing about other people, I remembered, like, all of a sudden, a memory flashed into my mind of when I was like around six, six or seven well, yeah, around six or seven, where we would drive back and forth from Los Angeles to Arizona visiting family, all that kind of stuff. Is that I-8? I think it's I-8 down there, right, okay, i-8. And I remembered all of a sudden.
Isaac Villegas :I remembered when we got stopped at one of these checkpoints. It was right there by the border between California, arizona, and like I was just drawn into the moment and I'd not really thought about it before, but it was a moment where they pulled us over and at the they took my dad and I remember they took my dad into like custody and their little outpost thing and they had the, the drug dogs like come around and like sniff through our car and us, our bags and all this. And it was this moment. I'm just like Whoa, I, I guess that's a repressed memory and so I called my dad and I'm just like I'm not making this up, right, this happened. He's like, oh my gosh, yes, that happened.
Isaac Villegas :We'd never talked about it, like it was just one of these things that happened in the past and like it's kind of embarrassing. I guess too, I don't know, but yeah, so some of these stories as I'm telling stories about other people in the book, as I get drawn in, all of a sudden like things start coming back to me about my own life that I, that I remembered and had to sort through all over again, I guess, yeah, yeah, so that's one example of like learning about my myself, I guess, through writing.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, I mean it's amazing how some of those memories come back when you start just like reflecting on it and I mean that's such like an intense experience. You know, rich, rich and I've been, or our family has been, going down to Baja, a down to baja a bunch last several years and there's all these checkpoints down there and last time we were down there we got stopped and like a guy with like a big gun like was crawling through our car and stuff and you just don't think about how, especially, I feel like for people who are probably most people who are white and who just aren't really worried about those border checkpoints because I know the exact checkpoint you're talking about Probably we pass through it every time we go out to East County you know we just don't really think much of it. But if you are someone who you feel like even if you didn't know, you didn't, you're not, you know, have anything, you're not smuggling anything it's still just like such a scary like people experience the world in such different ways, I guess. So I'm trying to get help because of their immigration status, because of, you know, race and ethnicity and language.
Chris Nafis:Um, maybe, I mean, maybe I should ask you to to start like. So you grew up like in LA area and then moved to Arizona, like where are you from? What do you do? Maybe tell us a little bit about yourself.
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, yeah, I grew up. So my dad my dad, um migrated from colombia, um, and then my mom from costa rica, and they met in los angeles, redonda beach and that's where, yeah, they started the family. So my sister and I, we grew up there. My dad for his whole work life. My dad worked in the same factory, which is amazing, so it was a factory in Carson. We lived in Lomita. For those Californians out there who know these places, I'm in North Carolina now, so I San Diego, so we know some LA places.
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, yeah, and yeah, my mom has been a beautician for all of her time and, uh, for her work. Life cuts hair anyhow. So, yeah, we grew I, we grew up there in lomita, carson, torrance area. Uh, dad worked in this factory and so then they basically opened another factory in tucson, arizona, and we moved with the factory. My dad was sent to t. So, yeah, I grew up in Los Angeles and then Tucson, grew up Catholic at the beginning, latin American.
Isaac Villegas :That was kind of just what happens, I guess. Maybe I don't know if that's true anymore, but that's what it was like back then and then. But my parents I don't remember how old I was I have vague memories of the catholic church and then, um, they became more charismatic. There was a charismatic renewal movement happening within the catholic church at the time and that became more and more interesting to them and so we started doing, you know, wednesday night meetings with praise and you know guitars, fruits of the manifestations of the spirits got drawn into I don't know, storefront charismatic churches, vineyard stuff, and that was kind of significant for me growing up. Then, yeah, came out, some went to college, came out here to north carolina to go to duke div School for seminary and then became a Mennonite pastor out here and have been here ever since.
Chris Nafis:Nice. Yeah, how'd you end up with the Mennonites?
Isaac Villegas :So I heard about the Mennonites when I was in college. In college I had it was my senior year of college is when 9-11 happened and I was. I was shaken in my faith because of all the Christians and you know churches that formed me, church I was going to. They were calling for revenge and I was like y'all taught me that Jesus was important and Jesus is especially important times like this. Jesus doesn't talk about killing people. That is not the way of the gospel and I, like it just really messed with my head and I had a professor who was very pastoral.
Isaac Villegas :His name is Jonathan Wilson, he's now retired, he's a Canadian Baptist and he told me the story of the Anabaptists and the 16th century Anabaptist movement, which is a nonviolent Christian movement, and I was like, yes, that's amazing, I want to worship. Where are these communities? And there weren't any around there in that part of California, around there in that part of California. And so when I moved out here to North Carolina I just looked up the if there were many Mennonite churches Mennonites are kind of Anabaptist, part of the Anabaptist tradition and found one and showed up to church one time, to chapel and Mennonite fellowship, and um, that Sunday one of the members of the church, tom Lehman, said to me oh, welcome to church. Uh, would you mind reading scripture the next Sunday? I was like, oh, I guess I'm going back to church next Sunday. And then basically they're like oh, you're coming to church, how would you like to serve as our pastor? And I was like, okay, I guess this is the leading of the spirit as our pastor.
Chris Nafis:And I was like, okay, I guess this is the leading of the spirit. All right, man, that's that's. I love that. That's such a great story of um just getting involved. I mean we do the same thing, right, like we try to get new people like a chance to read, a chance to participate, and then you may, and then you belong, and then, and now you're now you're a Mennonite pastor doing PhD work, uh, at Duke andke and um, and you write for.
Isaac Villegas :you write for like a bunch of places right yeah, just let me clarify that I'm no longer the pastor of that church. They now have a wonderful new pastor. Um, and yeah, I had to step away, stepped away from that to do this phd work, religion and you got right. For a christian century that's kind of been my home.
Chris Nafis:And for our denomination, our minute denominational magazine as well, um, yeah, yeah, well, I always like your stuff pops up for me on just social media and stuff and it's so. You're like one of those writers where it's like it's always worth the click and the read because you're just, you're thoughtful and concise, maybe because you cut down all your writing so much just what a good writer does right and, um, i't know, there's just like a genuineness to to what you do, um, and I thought that's very kind, just let me say thank you.
Isaac Villegas :That's very kind of you to say. It's one of these things like writing. This is what I miss about preaching, because preaching you kind of get to even though you never know what a sermon does. Or maybe you do, maybe you know what it is, but I never knew what a sermon does, what it did, um. But at least when you're preaching you get to see like faces and how it's affecting people and you're like oh, communication's happening Right, and even somebody afterwards who says like hey, thanks for your sermon. You know what I mean. Like it's a kind of like a routine that happens, but it's something, whereas with writing stuff it's like I, I sent it off. I have no idea if it ever lands. So it's always nice to find somebody to be like. Oh yeah, you know, it resonated with me.
Chris Nafis:So, yeah, thanks for your stuff Lands well with me and that's for sure true about preaching, that was a part of what was so hard during COVID was preaching into like a zoom screen and teachings too, like it's just like a black hole.
Chris Nafis:It's like sucks the life out of you Cause you have no feedback. You know, like preaching and usually has. I mean, and we're not, I'm not a super charismatic preacher, I'm kind of probably boring preacher, teaching style preacher. But even even me, like you see faces and you get energy from the people who are with you, and like you see faces and you get energy from the people who are with you and there's like this back and forth that happens and it's just not there in all forms of communication, including podcasts. Um, and even though, like I, I always tell people like you'd be shocked how little feedback you get as a preacher, like people just don't actually tell you anything but the come, say nice word today or something, but you just don't get a lot of like detailed feedback. But but you get it through the body language, into through the eyes and stuff for sure.
Chris Nafis:Exactly, yeah, yeah, well, I mean a big part of the book and what you've been, what you, what has been like. You're one of those people where I'm like man. It's not a lot of people in the church that are inspiring to me that I want to be like these days, which is kind of sad to say, but you're one of them and part of the reason is because of what you and your communities have done just in in like the kinds of actions that you've done you talk about like the book is really a series of stories about you know different kinds of like communal action, I guess. Is that a fair way to yeah, yeah?
Isaac Villegas :This is the other thing I should say I'm very Mennonite in this, where you know there's this Mennonite sensibility, where it's an Anabaptist sensibility, where you don't know if the gospel is preached until it's received as good, as news. You know there's no like this sense of this sacramental understanding of preaching. Like I preached, therefore, it happened. It's more like well, no, did you receive what I'm saying is good and as news? If not, then we need to talk more about this. So you describing the book in the ways that you are is actually really helpful for me to figure out, like what happened.
Chris Nafis:You preach anything happen in this book, yeah well, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are going to find that and I know that's. Yeah, there's very there's like a pragmatism in that, you know like, because then it's like, do they also do this? Like you kind of sit down and have like a discussion about the sermon afterwards, right, and there's a sense that like this is a word that someone's sharing very strong on like priesthood of all believers, right, that the pastor kind of has a little bit of a role in the community, but it's not like elevated in a way that in some denominations there's like ordination carries this huge weight in this huge, you know kind of priestly position. And I appreciate all that about the witness of the Mennonites, it's really beautiful and I think that maybe that's part of how you end up with this like really deep sense of communal identity in the church.
Chris Nafis:And then I church this is one of the things I was wanting to ask you about, because you know you talk I think you quoted howard was at some point talking about like kind of ethics and like what the church is, and I think uh, I wrote it down somewhere something like the church is not supposed to have a social ethic, but to but to be, be a social ethic right, and so there's like a difference between church kind of carrying values and ethics and you know whatever, and like living it and being it, and I think that's like, could you say a little bit about that, like that's a significant change in mentality, I think.
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, I mean I was very much affected by Professor Hauerwas and yeah, his line it's from peaceable kingdom and he says it throughout. I mean it's kind of what he's. One of the important things that he contributes to our conversation about theology and ethics is, yeah, the church is not. The church doesn't have a social ethic. The church is a social ethic and what he's trying to name there is that, like what we do as a community, as a body, is already political. It's already a statement how we organize our lives together. Who's able to like speak from the pulpit? Who's able to read scripture? Who do we entrust with proclaiming God's word? All of that is like relationships of power and what we're trying to say as a community. So I think part of what he's, part of his point, which I take very seriously, is that, like we don't necessarily have to think about, okay, we do this thing called the gospel at church and shape our lives around it, and now we got to translate that message into the secular world out there that lives by its own logic and its own rules. And he's like no, the translation there's, you don't need to translate, you just do the things that are church everywhere, and I mean so maybe one story to like along these lines, where I I think it's like pretty, pretty Hauerwasian is as we would do at church.
Isaac Villegas :So for Mennonites and other Christian traditions, like during Holy Week, you kick it. You know, leading up to Easter, thursday is a very important day. It's Maundy Thursday, or Holy Thursday. Maundy is like Latin for command, I think. Is that right? Sounds like Monday, it's in Spanish, so I'm sure it's Latin for command. And so what it remembers is the command of Jesus to the disciples on that last night where he's eating with them before he's taken away, where he says this command I give to you to love one another. And then he says you know what this love is, not just something you think about, or you just say you enact it. And that's where he washes the disciples feet. And you remember Peter being like no, no, no, no, no, you can't. While you're my, you're my rabbi, you can't do that. And Jesus is like well, if you want, if you want to do this, you have no part of me, ok. So it's kind of this revolutionary act of servanthood that Jesus embodies and foot washing. And so Holy Thursday for us in our church we do a foot washing service where we watch another's feet, and this is how we acknowledge that we live by Christ's love for us and we pour that out with one another as we wash feet.
Isaac Villegas :So we just decided to do that at the at the Immigrant Detention Center when Holy Thursday, to be like, hey look, this was like this was during the Obama era, when he you know, maybe President Obama did a lot of the infrastructural work to set up the US deportation machine that President Trump is now utilizing to the max, and one of the things that Obama did was start setting up these kind of like they're what did he call it?
Isaac Villegas :I can't remember what they're called, but basically they like their little way state, like little subunit, they're like sub ice detention centers in all these suburban areas throughout the United States, and we found one of them or a journalist found one of them and it was nearby in, in Perry of all places, which is like this kind of a more of a upper class area between Raleigh and Durham, which are the two larger cities, suburban, and yeah, so we went over there and we just demand with a bunch of people you know, this was like an ecumenical our Catholic worker, friends who were there, other people from other churches, and we just did a whole worship service there in the parking lot, demanding for us to have access to our brothers and sisters in Christ who they were keeping from us, to say like, look this, this service is all about all of us washing each other's feet. It's wrong for you to keep them from us. Let them out. And they didn't. And they, they locked the doors and called the police on us and all that kind of stuff.
Isaac Villegas :But I mean so that's an example. It's just like look what we do as a church. Our soul, our social witness, our ethic is this worship service, which is where we wash each other's feet. This is how we uh declare that we're the body of Christ, and we're just doing that in a place where it's more politically, um, provocative Does that make sense as like an example.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, I mean I think that's like that's what. So I just read your book, like I mean, I finished it today, right? So one of the things that's got me thinking about is the way that, like the, that and some of the other stories in your in, in like your cause, you're telling these stories of your church and other churches that have like done these things and like I think what's profound about them is that they're like the actions themselves. I think what's profound about them is that they're like the actions themselves. The thing that you're doing is so profoundly um, like rooted in, like the, the worship and practice of the church. You know what I mean.
Chris Nafis:Like you're not doing, uh, like it's not um showy sort of acts of political theater or something like that, like you're just doing Christian stuff and doing it in a way that's public and um, and that kind of like has this prophetic effect. And because you're doing it like you're really doing it. You're not just like pretending to wash someone's feet, like you're actually in the parking lot washing people's feet. There's like an authenticity to it that kind of can cut through some of just all the. You know there's just like so much chatter and talk and bluster and everything, um, but when you actually like, just do the thing. I mean, there's something really beautiful about that. Does that make sense?
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, yeah, totally, and I'm just now remembering I didn't include this in the in the book, but so we would do that worship service, the full washing worship service, like every monday third every year, for I can't remember how many years and it kind of grew and but I remember this. I mean, he's an amazing person. His name is uh patrick and he's part of that. He's a catholic worker, uh person around here and he would during service. So the police would show up, especially that first time they were there in mass and were threatening to arrest us. And Patrick, who believes in the power of the Holy Spirit and the gospel as I'm trying to like do this service, hold things together because I'm leading it Patrick goes and starts inviting like a police officer to come have their feet washed and I was just like this is yeah. I'm like this is the gospel right.
Isaac Villegas :Like this is like what, what it's? I mean they did not, but it was just like this moment. I'm like that's super powerful, that, yeah, like you're saying, this is about worship, this is about the gospel, and every worship service is always public. That's what you know, that's what we do as church, and we're just doing it in a different place. And if someone's moved by the Holy spirit, like this police officer, what's to stop them from joining? So I don't know, I I just yeah, that was just the powerful moment. I didn't. I mean, I I should have talked about that, but I I'd forgotten until now record.
Chris Nafis:But you know, with all the things going on politically, I feel like I'm kind of in a little, maybe accelerated season of preparation for needing to respond. And you know we're our church, is active around housing and homelessness and we have a lot of people that are, you know, involved in advocacy around those issues already. But it just feels like there may be time coming when we need to do some more engaging, you know, kind of stuff, that more collaborative with other churches, that sort of thing. I guess, like how do you it takes it must take some creativity but also some discernment to figure out, like what to do. You know what I mean. Like what? How do you guys come up with the idea Like we're going to go to this detention center and have a Maundy Thursday foot washing service there? You know what I mean. Like what? How do you guys come up with the idea like we're gonna go to this detention center and have a monday, thursday foot washing service there? You know what I mean. Like where? How do you find your way into that?
Isaac Villegas :yeah, yeah, that's a really good yeah I. I think it's very much rooted in like for us that event. It was very much rooted in our tradition. It was this foot washing is super important for Mennonites and so like it just felt automatic in a way and and so that, and as these deportations were kind of growing.
Isaac Villegas :You know, things are horrible right now with with Donald Trump as the president. With Donald Trump as the president, it's really really bad. At the time, with Obama, it also felt pretty bad. He earned himself the name of, like the deporter in chief. So it was just one of these things at the time.
Isaac Villegas :It's like, oh my gosh, you know they're taking our neighbors from us. This is wrong. What do we do? What resources in our church's life, worship in our tradition, and it just kind of happened. You know it, just it, just God, I guess, as we thought about it.
Isaac Villegas :I mean, similarly, we I tell the story in the book about during the first Trump administration, with Rosa del Carmen, who was a no, she's documented now, but was an undocumented resident and needed a place to be protected so she could be protected from ICE because she was flagged for deportation, and so our church welcomed her into the sanctuary protective sanctuary we, you know, organized. This is a long history, a church history where churches have been known to keep people safe when the law enforcement agents are after them for a period of time. And so we, you know, tapped into that tradition and said, yeah, this is what we're going to do for for rosa. So, and so we kept her safe at church for two years from ice, from ice coming to get her. So I mean, again, that's just an example of just like, oh wow, there's this need.
Isaac Villegas :What are how is the church thought about this? Stuff in the past, maybe there's something we can access now. Stuff in the past, maybe there's something we can access now. So, yeah, it's one of these things where it feels both spontaneous in terms of coming up with the what to do and, at the same time, like it's the tradition, it's like we're not reinventing something. You know I does. That it's weird. It's both an old thing and it's also feels spontaneous in terms of making the connection yeah, it's interesting that like a two-year work can seem spontaneous.
Chris Nafis:You know what I mean. Like um. I mean you described like just providing, providing safe harbor for her, and we've, you know, like some of the new ice, uh directives I don't even know what to call them where they're saying like there's no longer sanctuary spaces, church, schools. It's probably partly because of what you guys were doing right and and other. It wasn't just you, but there was like a network of churches that were doing that sort of thing and um, but like you know, it sounds again. It's like it's not just like a theater, like you had to actually have someone there with her. She had to herself had to like stay there for a long. I mean that all of it is. It's hard stuff to do, um, but when you're actually doing it, then there's like a witness there. That's more than just like a silly tweet or something. It's like a yeah, you know what I mean. Like there's like a, an embodied witness. That's not um.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, we put our lives on the line you know, I mean it's one of these things where it's.
Isaac Villegas :I mean so at the time. I mean it's one of these things where it's like you could get in trouble. I mean we were all trained in, you know, community defense, civil disobedience. What would happen if I showed up at the door to take her away? What would you feel comfortable doing, not a? What a judicial warrant looks like as opposed to an administrator. You know, all these things that I'd never thought of before became super significant for keeping her safe. Um, yeah, we were ready to do it. But yeah, you're right.
Isaac Villegas :I mean so it's spontaneous in terms of making the decision, but then we spent so much time figuring out what we need to do to make it happen. So I think we counted something like 160 volunteers from both our congregation, and it was in a partnership with the. We rented space from another church and so we had to get them on board a Presbyterian congregation, and so from their church, our church and then churches in the community, people, and then you know, non-church people too, would volunteer to help out. So like 160 volunteers from 11 congregations, and those were people signed up to do everything from bring groceries to do laundry. That was something I was so dumb Like that first week Rosa texted me.
Isaac Villegas :She was just like, so how do I do laundry? And I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even. We were trying to think of everything but we did not think about laundry. And so then we had to come up with like a laundry rotation of people which is super personal. You know what I mean. Like I don't know I'm.
Isaac Villegas :One thing that I'm just totally just overwhelmed by is that Rosa just kind of entrusted herself to us. Like that was wild to me and and we delivered. You know what I mean. Like we're small church, it's not, I don't know, it was just thinking back. I'm just super impressed. I mentioned early, you know I dedicate the book to rosa and this other person who's in sanctuary some will, and I mentioned early on that I say you know, um, I believe in the holy catholic or the Holy Apostolic Church, whatever you want to say, in the old creeds. You know that's something that I say I believe in my head, but Rosa kind of believes it with her, believed it with her life. Like she's like I'm entrusting my life to the care of the church, and that was a huge responsibility.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, of the church, and that was a huge responsibility.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I mean you have to have a certain understanding of what the church is in order to both trust it and in order to do what you guys did. Like it's, you know, like so much of uh popular imagination about the church these days is just like you go to church and then you leave church and and like there really is this like strong sense of like we, we are the church, we are a community committed to one another long-term. You know, like with future plans, like you can depend on me, right, like we'll be there, we'll, we'll, we're going to pick up the laundry later this week, and there's probably some volunteer who's like, yep, on Thursdays I'm going to be there to do the laundry, and even if I get an argument with someone in the church, like I'll still be there next Thursday to do the laundry, and I mean that's, that's like a different understanding of what we're doing, when we are like a worshiping body of believers, than is kind of common in in the current era of like ecclesiology, right.
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah. That makes me think like, um, that's a really good point about the way our congregation cultivated this disposition, where it just made sense to do this. So you know, we're a church where when we celebrate communion, we also have a potluck meal. Like those two things come together. So it's like an ecclesiology where, you know, communion is tied to sharing stuff and eating together. And you do that enough times over the years, like every month or whatever it might be. You start to develop a sense of like, oh yeah, we are the church around tables as we share our lives and our food and pray and are involved in each other's lives. And you know, wednesday night groups or whatever it might be. So that, like you're saying, this cohesion that happens in the congregation is like, yeah, we can trust each other to do this kind of to be there for each other. We've trusted each other to be there for each other in the past.
Isaac Villegas :Maybe we can do this for somebody else we don't know very well, like rosa, who's living with us yeah, man, it's beautiful what um, I'm highlighting all the beautiful parts about church, but you know it's a different book to talk about all the hard stuff as well yeah, I feel like people do that with our church too.
Chris Nafis:People from the outside are always like, oh, it's so beautiful what you guys are doing. You have all these people who are on the street that are in your congregation and, yeah, it's a lot messier than it looks from like an arm's length away. You know, because it's just just everybody has to mix and it's every mix and we're all, we all fall short, right?
Isaac Villegas :yeah?
Chris Nafis:yeah, um, well, what happens when it does? I guess I I was going to ask about, I guess, one of the things I was thinking about as I read the different stories, because I was, I found myself wondering, you know, and then they probably scatter and it seems like maybe they did Not really sure where they end up going. But what I found myself thinking is, like, what happens? Because it feels like that may have been true 10 years ago, but I I doubt that's as true today with, like, the empowerment from the trump administration as it was then. You know what I mean.
Chris Nafis:Do you feel like they it like it changes the, it changes the nature of the work of the church when the outside community is kind of openly hostile to that work? I mean, in some ways that was already the case what you were doing, but you know what I mean. When it like, you know, I feel like standing up to the Trump administration like they don't care, it feels like you know what I mean. So what? How does that change the? How does that change the discernment?
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, no, that's a good point. Um, yeah, so yeah, what you're saying about ice is true. So we around here, we organized a this ICE watching team so that we I mean at the time, you know, not just we, but like communities throughout the United States, networks combined people together to share information and notice that ICE was always, like, very reticent to be too public about their operations because they're always operating on the edge of the law, which the Trump administration is pushing that edge all the time. So they're always operating at the edge of the law and so they realize it's always a risk of what they're doing and they don't have any jurisdiction over citizens. That was the other thing about it. So ICE has no jurisdiction. They cannot touch, cannot touch. I mean they can't touch citizens. We'll see what happens. Um, so yeah, so we would. We found out that if you confront them and start asking them questions, they kind of just go away. Um, and so this is called like community defense work and yeah, I mean that that was true back then and it's turning out to be true now.
Isaac Villegas :I mean, it's so early to to tell, but I've seen reports now of um, people confront, I think, someone. It was a texas town recently, like last week, where they found that ice was organizing in a parking lot I can, can't remember it was like a Target or Walmart parking lot every morning or evening, whatever it was and then go out for their operations. Because I mean the other thing about it is they don't have a station anywhere. You know what I mean. So like they show up for their operations in Houston let's say, I don't know Houston, they might have something but Tulsa, oklahoma they don't have anywhere to go. They're just staying in hotels, motels, and then they have to all convene in the morning to go out, and so you find out where that is, and so these people showed up and just start recording them and they got really like fussy about it and then left, and so it was just a way of disrupting their operations, to make things more inconvenient.
Isaac Villegas :I think at that at this point. That's what that's. What a win is, sadly, is how do you disrupt the deportation machine, because it's very hard to imagine dismantling it or changing it, but how do you make life difficult for people doing this work? I think is a question people are wrestling with.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, yeah, that's a good, that's a helpful way to kind of frame some of the work, because again, like it's I don't know, I feel like maybe that's one of the things that's seems kind of scary about the change in the, in the posture of the trump administration, even from like trump trump administration. Part one is that it's, it's know. It felt like even when Trump came first, came on the scene, it just felt like there's no, there's no shame, you know what I mean. Like no one's going to pressure him to do it. He will say I can shoot someone on fifth Avenue and no one cares. And he kind of knows that.
Chris Nafis:And now it feels even more so like he's just like well, you're trying to stop me, you can't you know, I don't care if you're going to protest away, you know who cares and that, um, it feels like, at least for a long time in American society at least there's been, uh, an ability for civil rights movements of various sorts to put political pressure on people and um, but like I guess maybe that's one of the beautiful things about what how you all have like done your work, or the work that's been happening in the book is that it's not like the political pressure is not the only point, like the point is to like do the right thing, to be the people you should be. I don't have like a question.
Isaac Villegas :I mean, yeah, I think it's like the fundamental question of like how we act in this world and whether or not our Christian witness is effective. It's so complicated to think through that you do the right thing because it's the right thing and you want it to have an effect in the world, but it's, yeah, I I think it gets to the heart of the faith, which is the story of Jesus, where he gets killed, like I mean his ministry and I mean not just even before he gets crucified, I mean it is, it's kind of a ineffective ministry in some sense, because he gathers all these people around him, these disciples, and then they shrink, like people start leaving him. You know, there's like moments in the story where you know he says, oh, in John's gospel, for example, where he's like you know, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part, and I can't remember exactly how it goes and people like whoa, whoa, whoa this is a difficult teaching and many left. So there's moments like that where you can see it shrinking and then, at the very end, like Judas betrays him, one of his beloved disciples, who's been there the whole time, you know, like sells him out.
Isaac Villegas :Peter denies him, you know, there, in his moment of of need, the disciple, when he's at his in the garden of gethsemane, where he's feeling the weight of it all and like he's like please stay up with me to his disciples and they fall asleep, you know, on it. So it just feels like, step after step, um, his, it's not a revolution. He didn't stop. You know what I mean. Like it's not a revolution, he didn't stop. You know what I mean. Like this is not a huge movement that's going to change the world. It shrinks and then he gets killed. I don't know. I think that means something for how we think about why we do the things we do and how we imagine they might be effective or change stuff.
Isaac Villegas :What do you?
Chris Nafis:think, yeah, I mean, in some ways it's a, it sets you free from having to be effective. You know, because, like you said, like I think the expectation on him, you know, as like Messiah the term Messiah is like liberator Many of them were very clearly expecting him to overthrow Roman occupation and rule and he, like he doesn't do that right, like he doesn't, he doesn't, he gets crucified and he's resurrected. That right, like he doesn't, he doesn't, he gets crucified and he's resurrected. And in in like kind of a way that is, I don't know, this is like just typical gospel logic to me.
Chris Nafis:Like rome does kind of get overthrown by the faith as it spreads through rome, but not in the, not in the way that anyone was expecting. You know, it's like this. It's this um, backwards way of uh, overthrowing a you know the most powerful empire in the in the region, for maybe in the region's history, I don't know this backwards way of overthrowing a you know the most powerful empire in the in the region, for maybe in the region's history, I don't know, and so that. But I think that maybe maybe that frees us up from like we have to save the world, we have to be faithful and trust that the spirit's going to work through the faithfulness of the people. Yeah, that's great that you know work through the faithfulness of the people.
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, that's great. We don't have to save the world. This is Karl Barth, that great Swiss theologian from the 20th century. He's just very clear, he's just like no, the world already has a savior, his name is Jesus Christ. Right, and that's not our job. And I mean, like you're saying, that is a bit liberating to think about. Yeah, we don't bear the world on our shoulders, that's. There's somebody who, who does, and we're just invited to bear witness to that love, to that care, and follow where it may. But I also would like the world to change a little bit. I don't know what to do about that yeah, I know that's the.
Chris Nafis:That's the rub, right, because, like, I mean, it's the same. It's like I feel like you're describing the immigration system is it's like a machine, right? You're you've kind of called it a machine couple times overwhelming. How do you, how do you stop like a juggernaut of a machine like that? And I think homelessness for us feels very much like that. It's just like there's it's so complex and it's so messy and there's so many huge forces that, like a tiny church like ours, like what are? You know, we can put up 28 people on rainy nights and that's like that's pushing us to our limits. You know what I mean.
Chris Nafis:And that's not gonna, that's not gonna solve homelessness and it feels like, but like I, we so badly want it to be solved. You know what I mean. Like we want to see people getting off the street, um, and so in one way, it's kind of liberating to be like, okay, we don't have to be the ones who figure out homelessness and solve it with our meager resources and and all that, but on the other hand, like I do want to help solve it. You know what I mean. Um, and we do want to be wise and strategic with, like the time, resources people influence, that we have to like make a positive difference in the world. Um, I don't know, how do you, you balance those things?
Isaac Villegas :So now you're making it. So yeah, I think part of it is. Maybe this is what I believe. I mean, I'm trying it out here, I'm trying to name what I think is like actually inside me and when it comes out in words, sometimes it makes sense or sometimes it doesn't. I don't know, We'll see. But I think what I believe is like is that I don't have a policy recommendation at this point, Like I don't know how to solve the immigration system issue. You know what?
Chris Nafis:I mean, I mean, I can come up with like little policies.
Isaac Villegas :I mean, yes, obviously we need to come up with, like pathways to citizen. It's ridiculous that there are not ways to become citizens in this. It's ridiculous that there are residency permits. You know all these things. It's just so. But at the same time, just like, yeah, but borders like I.
Isaac Villegas :It's so complicated and I and I guess what I find myself doing and this is what led me to want to write this book and share these stories is I feel like I'm at the edge of knowing what to do and I can't go any further. And then I find these communities and people who are doing something, even though they don't know, like a grand strategy, but they're doing what they can, and that feels hopeful and I hope that the more that I get involved in their work and watch what they're doing, that ideas might happen, that they might inspire our. It might be creative moments to be like you know what. We don't know about all that, but here's one thing we can do, so I don't know. So like there's this church in that I talk about, in some Latino Mennonino men and I congregation south, uh, dallas, texas, and they're just. They were just like oh look, we need to just start having more meals and invite people to like be part of our congregation. And, uh, there's undocumented people, like they're in this plight with us. There's people in our congregation, people are our neighbors, so we just provide for them. And I'm like, yeah, right, like that's what you do. Like, of course, like this.
Isaac Villegas :Or there's the? Um, the migrant shelter in tijuana, mexico. Um, that's run by the scalabrini priests, the scalabrini order, and they're like look, people are all through the central america, uh, south america, central america, come up. I mean all over the world. I met people down there from um person from Syria, a person from Ethiopia, I mean just everywhere. Oh, ukraine, that's just how you try to get into the country when there's no way to get in. So all these people are just kind of bumping up against the wall down there in Tijuana and these priests are like look, they need food, they need shelter. Like we care about human beings and their plight. So at the very least, we can just give them a bed and make sure they have food and medical care or whatever it might be. And I hope that, like, those are the places where creativity might happen to inspire an imagination that we just couldn't come up with on our own? Does that?
Chris Nafis:make sense, maybe another way to say it is.
Isaac Villegas :I really believe that as we live out the life, the gospel life, that through the practice of it the Holy Spirit gives us new ideas.
Chris Nafis:That's where creativity happens is as we're doing the work because you see the needs, you see new needs and you see you make connections and there's people in the work that have ideas about things to do that you know maybe weren't empowered to do before, but now that they're kind of getting involved in the community in some way.
Chris Nafis:Um, yeah, and I think, like maybe it inspires hope or creativity and how in like what we might do together, but also like I think it helps us to fend off despair about the world too.
Chris Nafis:You know, yeah, because I don't know, it's just especially these days, the world it's so overwhelming, but I feel like most of us can name like six ways that the world might completely be destroyed in the next five years. You know, and maybe that's an exaggeration, maybe not, I don't know, I have to think about it, but you know, like I think being like hearing these stories of people doing like actually good things that are like faithful and rooted in hope and rooted in like the hope of Christ, just hearing them helps me at least to hold despair at bay, and I think participating in them is like an even deeper way to just be like you know there's some, there's something good in this world, like God is at work here. I'm gonna be a part of it, you know, and I don't know how it's gonna end, but like I'm gonna be part of this good work at least yeah, I mean that name your name.
Isaac Villegas :Exactly what I, what got me through writing the book, got me to write the book and put these stories together is is like I'm.
Isaac Villegas :I go to these places and because I've heard about them, you know some through church networks or or whatever it might be, and like a congregation, or the migrant shelter, or this guy, alvaro enciso in in arizona, who goes out and plants, crosses wherever remains of migrants are found, who crossed um, and I go out because I'm looking for hope too. Right, I mean, the despair is overwhelming and I'm like here are people doing things when there's nothing that I can imagine to do and people find ways to go on doing at least something to get them through the week, through the month, through the years. That is pointing in a direction that's better than than what we have and and yeah, I people organizing their lives around hope. That's that's, hopefully what I'm trying to describe and just how beautiful it all is Like. It's just like people are amazing in their witness to another world happening in the midst of this one and it's like, yeah, I can't help but want to share those stories with other people.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, for sure. Well, I you know, like one of the things that I've written down is like to ask you is like where I feel like I'm kind of finding the answer to this and just in thinking and having a conversation, but like where does where, how does the personal spiritual practice meet up with, like, the communal work that we're talking about? You know what I mean, you know what I mean. So I think this is like I feel like for me, um, so much of my personal hope comes from the communal work you know, what I mean, that I sometimes you know I'm not the strongest of uh, like prayer practices are hard for me.
Chris Nafis:Put it that way, you know, like I, I'm not great at spiritual discipline. It's really good for me when I get into them, but, like it's, it's not where I come to life. In my spiritual life I just come to. I come to life and seeing like the kind of works that we're talking about, where, where does that balance for you? Or where do you see that in as like, as a pastor of communists, former pastor of communists doing this stuff, you know, where is the balance between, like those, those personal acts of like piety? Where is the balance between like those, those personal acts of like piety, faithfulness, prayer, um, and like the larger communal work of um, of justice and care for one another?
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, yeah, this is getting real now. I would say when I was a pastor, like it helped me my faith life felt. It helped me my faith life belt. It was not complicated in terms of sorting things through, cause it's like every Sunday I have to say something about the gospel and so, and I have to read these Bible passages and I mean that's stress.
Isaac Villegas :It's stressful, I mean for me, um, cause there's a lot like I mean the one thing that we're stressful, I mean for me, um, cause there's a lot like I mean the one thing that we're committed to as preachers is it's like sharing the gospel as good news and telling the truth and that's a lot. And so, yeah, I mean prayer becomes fundamental as part of, uh, all of that felt very natural to me as a rhythm and kept me um, very natural to me as a rhythm and kept me, um, yeah, centered, I guess, um, and I'll be like come quick, right, right, and then during the week, like you're thinking about the people that you care and they're going to talk, you know what I mean.
Isaac Villegas :So it's like they're in your, they're in your head too and, um, I don't know, that felt very grounding for me. The pastor's life, um, yeah, yeah, and I would say that for prayer there's this, um, I found in, oh, yeah, actually in the, I think I, yeah, I start the introduction of the book with prayers from this, this book that was put together by the Catholic Order. It's a prayer book for migrants and when I was down in the migrant house, la Casa Migrante in Tijuana, I was able to get one of these prayer books, which has been just really helpful for me to think through my prayer life it's and to think about all these people who are crossing the border and like really tough situations. Praying these prayers mostly like Psalms, kind of Psalms, paraphrases for the most part as and highlighted for the for people on the move and I, I don't know it helps me both think about their lives and also think about my own life and how much I depend on grace just to live like other people's grace and you know it's not just somebody on the move, uh, that needs that is dependent on neighbors, I mean, like I am every day and I need to recognize that as God's gift.
Isaac Villegas :And these prayers kind of helped me remember that and to say, yeah, we're filled with gratitude for the ways that God is sustaining our lives, I don't know. So I think I mean I'm kind of rambling around your question. I think while I was a pastor, I felt like my personal life. I never had to think about where my personal spiritual life and my church faith life and my political interest faith life, where one began and the other ended. It felt very cohesive. Now I feel a little more disoriented, to be honest, about how it fits together.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, yeah, well, because, yeah, like I I mean I really identified with that a lot like the, the rhythm of pastoral work kind of keeps you in, keeps you in it, right as there's like this in and out of, like the study and the concern and just like the things that weigh on you as you try to love this group of people and feel responsible for them in some way. Um, and yeah, so, for example, just sorry.
Isaac Villegas :One example I'm just thinking of the pastor's life and why it was so meaningful to me is like I don't really I only pray for myself.
Isaac Villegas :When I'm like desperate for something, you know, like when things have gotten really bad or there's a crisis, or like health concerns or I'm in pain or whatever it might be then it's just like, oh my, I need help and I pray.
Isaac Villegas :Um, I think being a pastor, what became automatic for me was during worship every Sunday, we would people would share their prayer requests and I would write them down and I'm just like, yeah, what it means to be a pastor is like I pray for people when they ask for prayer. You know, like that's just a fundamental, and so my prayers felt more oriented to the life of the community as a regular rhythm. And as soon as I mean I would find that as soon as I start praying for somebody, it kind of becomes, it opens my eyes to like other people too. I'm just like, oh, wait, a minute, that's not a unique thing to them, obviously other people, obviously I wrestle with it, and so it just kind of prayer for one person produces prayer for more people for me. That at that point and that felt good in ways where now my prayers are probably more just like self-centered being out of that role.
Chris Nafis:I mean, yeah, I forget who was I think it was some, it was a professor at duke or somebody that just kind of offhand comment made made a comment about like well, yeah, if you say, if you say you're gonna pray for someone, you should pray for them. And I really took that to heart like a lot of years ago.
Chris Nafis:And now I'm like pretty careful about like what I commit to pray for and like if I tell you I'm going to pray for you, I will pray for you you know, at least once, and I like I don't tell people like I'm going to pray for you every day, because I probably won't most of the time, you know, but I'll tell you like I'm going to pray for you today and then I will, and, um, and I think like having some communal prayer practices have been really helpful for me for that.
Chris Nafis:Like we have a kind of an open, open-ended sort of prayer liturgy where we pray for a lot of different categories of people who are sick and people who are, you know, unhoused, and people are struggling with addiction. And it's kind of a prompting to like think of all the people that you've talked to this week that you need to pray for, and that's yeah, I think it functions that way. And like following through on, yeah, that that in a spiritual discipline in and of itself, is like when you say you're going to pray for someone or something, like do it, yeah, yeah, it seems, for someone or something like do it, yeah.
Isaac Villegas :Yeah, it seems simple, but like it's actually pretty profound, you know. Yeah, I know it is, and I mean it opens us up to, like, what god's up to too, which I think is important yeah yeah, I don't know, I keep on going with this prayer, with this pastor prayer life. That's important.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff. That's where it's at. Yeah, yeah. Well, what's what? What are you? What's next? What are you working on now? Like what, what you know, how are you thinking about all of the things? As people say and I, you know, I know you're working on your PhD and stuff but like in terms of I mean maybe in terms of that, or maybe in terms of like kind of you know, in engagement with issues of like justice and faith, like, what are you working on?
Isaac Villegas :Well, I mean the thing that came to my. Every once in a while. This line comes to my mind when things feel really bad in this country. It's the sermon title from the Reverend Dr Martin Luther King Jr's final sermon, which he was not able to preach because he was assassinated. Do you know this? Do you know the sermon title? No, I know so. I learned this from Richard Lisher. Did you have Richard Lisher? Yeah, just a super wonderful human being.
Chris Nafis:Yes.
Isaac Villegas :Anyhow, I remember this from one of his classes or whatever, maybe his book, I can't remember. So the Thursday that Martin Luther King Jr was killed, a few hours before that, he called the church secretary because he was going to be home on Sunday. You know, he's a preacher Like. This is what Richard Lisher highlights in his book about King is that he's a preacher Like we just can't forget that he was fundamentally that's his rhythm. Like we just can't forget that what is he was fundamentally that's his rhythm of life. He always thinks about the next sermon. So on Thursday, as a good preacher, he calls the church secretary and says hey, I got my sermon title for the I don't know the worship bulletin or the kiosk, I can't remember, I don't know what it. But you know, you have to come up with a sermon title. And his sermon title was uh, why america may go to hell? And I was just it's just anyhow. So I think about that sermon, the sermon that he never was able to preach, and what he was thinking like, what was going on where it felt that bad, like the world felt that bad for him, and yeah, so I returned to that. I just just finished writing something, just thinking through, like what are the options? And I kind of revisited his, his story and what was going on the last two years of his life.
Isaac Villegas :Richard lisher, in his book I can't remember the name of it and I feel very badly about this right now but uh, in his, oh, the preacher king, that's what it's called, the preacher king, um, but what, what lisher? I mean lisher like listens to all the archives of all the sermons and speeches that king's giving. You know, like, anywhere in the country he gets access and he listens, try to figure out what's going on. And the thing that he highlights within king's last two years of his life, I mean he obviously king did not know there, know their last two years away but his tones shifts, lisher says His tone shifts from kind of progressive liberalism to liberationism, from reform to revolution, because he's working so hard for this movement of civil rights and he's getting abandoned over and over again, um, in mass, by the white church. He thought king thought that the ties between in the church that made us brothers and sisters in christ would transcend the race line. He really believed that. And so when his white, white pastors of these churches kind of like abandoned him, that was devastating to his spirit, like it was just like, oh my gosh, like I can't believe. And then the other thing was he preached oh, I think it's 1965.
Isaac Villegas :He preaches his beyond Vietnam speech where he he says the Vietnam War is unjust and it is racist, and he kind of calls everybody out on it. And then at that moment he loses a lot of political leverage in the civil rights movement that he had developed for so long, because people are like whoa, wait, wait, a minute, this is about civil rights here at home, it's not about the militarism over there. And so he gets, yeah, very worried about the direction of the country and what he says, the soul of the country. And so, yeah, I get worried. I think about that, like what's going on here, where this world feels pretty bad and what does it mean to live in the midst of just egregious sin and cruelty, like structures of cruelty that just kind of grow exponentially every week and we're destroying ourselves and this feels bad. So, yeah, so that's what I've been thinking about right now, and I mean through it all.
Isaac Villegas :Even though he's like that's the title of his sermon, he had some other sermons before that Lisher Notes, or speeches where he would say things like America's under judgment now or something like that. But it never distracted him from the work, it was like part of it. So it's not like despair, it's like incentive for him to double down on organizing. So in the midst of that, he's organizing the the poor people's campaign, which is this march where he's getting you know, an interracial march of basically people who are poor to demand like more egalitarian sharing, sharing of the economic resources. So he's organizing and he's making stuff happen and at the same time thinking like, oh wow, things are bad and getting worse, I don't know. So that's, I feel like that's that's where I am these days.
Chris Nafis:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was maybe too long of an answer for you, no, no, it was great and I think I mean honestly, like kind of, like we were saying, I think that like reading the stories that you highlight in the book and others like it, you know, like that's where I kind of personally find my hope and that's, those are the things that help me to fend off despair.
Chris Nafis:That and the preaching rhythm, I think, like you said, rhythm. I think, like you said, and you know, hopefully, you know, my hope and prayer is that our church, you know, will be a part of that, for ourselves and for others in our neighborhood and beyond. And you know, if we can continue to commit ourselves to faithfulness, into the hard work of like caring for one another, which is very hard, um, probably in all contexts. It feels feels especially hard in the context of homelessness, Um, but I think it's probably hard, no matter, you know what your kind of demographics are. Um, then there then, somehow out of the mess, like we'll come like some hope, you know, and uh, and we'll stick, stick with it and hang in there.
Isaac Villegas :So yeah, and I mean I don't want to be, I don't want this to be a trite thing, but like, as you're talking about, we're kind of stuck in the mess and that's where we're living. I mean, I I believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead. I mean, if there's anything right. It feels completely impossible and and should like blow our minds about what can happen. It's like Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Yeah, all bets are off now, I guess. Yeah, in terms of what could happen, right.
Chris Nafis:Well, like if you hang around in the places that the spirit is working, or if you're around Jesusesus, enough like you're gonna see some cool stuff, you know what I mean. Like you're gonna see some things that are that blow your mind and that it might not be every day. Like some days might just be dealing with petty drama between people who are arguing over silly things or, you know, narcaning someone on the ramp in front of the church, or, you know like it might just be that kind of stuff, but.
Chris Nafis:But if you hang around enough.
Isaac Villegas :Nothing petty about Narcanning somebody, just a pause right there.
Chris Nafis:I was just thinking of examples of things that I've done Recently that I was like man, I really need To be doing something else right now. I mean like, yeah, giving someone Narcan Is what you need to be doing. But like you know what I mean. Like I guess that is Narcan is what you need to be doing, but like you know what I mean, like that I guess that is narcan is kind of a miraculous experience of seeing someone who's like literally like looks like they're dying and then all of a sudden they're just you know, he was up and turned down medical treatment and rode off on his bike.
Isaac Villegas :You gotta go to the hospital.
Chris Nafis:You're gonna od again as soon as it wears off. Anyway, that's another story for another time. But but I guess what I'm trying to say is like and not every moment is going to be that, you know but like, if you, if you're around the spirit, like you're going to see cool stuff and like you're going to see resurrection, maybe, maybe in literal way, maybe in in, like, um, in more social ways, or you know, I don't know, but uh, but you gotta be around, you gotta be around, you gotta stick around and stick it out long enough to to kind of see the beauty of it.
Chris Nafis:I guess, Well, I've kept you a long time. Do you have any? Any closing thoughts or anything? Anything you want to share on the way out?
Isaac Villegas :No, no, just thank you for taking time to read the book and for talking to me about it and letting me ramble here. Yeah, this has been great.
Chris Nafis:Thanks so much, chris. For sure no, and I recommend everybody read it. It's, you know, like I said, I read in a few days it's. It's short, not in a bad way, like it's short in a really nice way, like it's really it's really nice to read, it's inspiring and hopeful. And um, uh, just in case someone forgot what it's called migrant God, a God, a Christian vision for immigrant justice, and this is um Isaac Vegas. Thank you so much for um, for coming on, and um, yeah, thank you for your friendship over the years and just for for all of it, yeah, thank you.
