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From segregation to solidarity: how young people unlearn hate with Stephen Hughes

• Chris Nafis • Season 2 • Episode 13

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The gates still close at 7 p.m. along Belfast’s longest segregation wall, but inside a small youth center, something braver is opening: kids learning to cross lines their grandparents feared. We sit down with Stephen Hughes—42 years in youth work, 13 in Lower Falls—to unpack how a simple, radical method turns inherited prejudice into shared purpose.

Stephen paints the full picture: two Christian communities divided by politics, bound by grief, and weighed down by poverty that grows heavier the closer families live to the wall. His team’s answer is disarmingly human. Start with play, build trust, and let children make one friend across the divide. As they age, add depth: honest dialogue about identity, faith, and power; strength-based mentoring that treats all behavior as communication; and exposure to voices that rarely meet—faith leaders, police, ex-combatants, victims, and peacebuilders. Nothing is off the table, and dignity is non-negotiable.

We follow real stories—from a first meeting that erupted in a fistfight to two former rivals now hosting sleepovers; from reactionary crisis work to a proactive strategy where teens plan cross-community hangouts and take civic ownership of their streets. They repaint hateful slogans, create photo exhibits that reframe the interface, and produce films that chart their journey from suspicion to solidarity. Along the way, churches model a new kind of leadership: humble, cooperative, and grounded in care rather than tribe.

If you’re navigating polarization, propaganda, or rising far-right fear, this conversation offers a replicable path: safe spaces for hard truths, reflection that reshapes language and behavior, and steady mentorship that builds moral character. Share this with someone who needs hope, subscribe for more grounded peacemaking stories, and tell us: what’s one divide you’re ready to cross this week?

Chris Nafis:

Hey, welcome back to the card. This is Pastor Chris Neifus of Living Water Church. I'm saying I'm delighted to have Stephen Hughes join me. He is the director of St. Peter's Youth Center in Lower Falls community in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Got to visit him when I was in Northern Ireland earlier this summer. And he's doing profound work among the youth in this place that is historically one of the touch points, the flash points of the violence and the division in Northern Ireland. He had for 13 years in this place and for 42 years has been doing youth work in Northern Ireland, helping to raise a generation that's ready for peace and that is being transformed by love and hope and ready to build a new community and a new life for themselves and for their neighbors. I hope that you find this conversation inspiring, especially in the midst of an increasingly divided country in our own context. Here it is, all right. Well, Steven, thank you so much for uh spending a little time just talking to me about what's going on there in Belfast. Uh, appreciate you being here with me at all. Um, so a lot of our folks, uh I just mentioned this before I hit record, but a lot of our folks may not know a ton about like the history of the troubles and the history of Belfast. Um, can you tell me a little bit about your like your neighborhood and and what led to kind of the context that you're in now?

Stephen Hughes:

Well, I'm I'm the youth worker in charge of what is the a small, charitable or not-for-profit organization um that works with young people from six to twenty five years of age. Um, we are the church's outreach to the young people of Lower Falls. And Lower Falls is a is a small community, um, right on the the edge of Belfast City Centre, the main shopping hub of Belfast. Um, we're a community that has been impacted quite severely um by the conflict that took place in Ireland. It is where the the violence began in 1969 in in Belfast, here in Lower Falls. Um it's also a community that is segregated. We have a large peace wall, which is sort of 30 foot high, that segregates two Christian communities. But on one side of the wall, we have people who want Ireland to be united, to be an all-Irish island again. And on the other side of the wall, we have people who want to uh retain Northern Ireland as as part of Britain. So politically, the two communities are divided, but we are in the main a Christian community together. And it it's uh it's a community that has a legacy of of violent conflict, political conflict. Um, it's a community that has hundreds of years of legacy-related issues that are economic issues, mainly poverty. Um, for example, in 1903, Carnegie came over from the United States. Scottish industrialist made his money in America, um, came here and he was impacted by the poverty that he saw. And he built three libraries, uh, one here in Lower Falls, uh, one in another community, uh a unionist community not far from here, and the Donegal Road, and one in Old Park Road in North Belfast. And those were the three most impoverished communities in 1904 when the three libraries were open. Still to this day, 120 years later, um, they remain three of the most impoverished communities. Do you know? So um, in 1972, this community was the most impoverished community in Europe, not even in Ireland or the UK, but in Europe. Um, and I'm I'm sure that that made a contribution to the the issues we had around the conflict. Yeah.

Chris Nafis:

Those those political one of the things is interesting to see there when we came, because you know, we came in not really, you know, we read up and I I kind of learned a little bit about the history and things, but didn't, you know, it's different to be there and kind of see it. Um, but how those that political divide is still very much very much alive, right? Like people still have strong feelings about their different political preferences in terms of uh where to be what state to be loyal to, what republic, that kind of thing.

Stephen Hughes :

I um am conflicted by that sometimes. Um I think there's a there's a couple of generations who hold on to the to the past and to the violence of the past and to the prejudice and and hate associated with the past. Um I think in in the work that I do with children and young people, I think the young people are moving on from that. We're seeing a new generation coming through that that don't want that that baggage of the conflict, and they're they're looking for something different. Yeah. And I think the young people um that we work with, um, they keep they keep saying to us, this is your problem, you know, as in my generation. You know, it's just we we don't want that. That that's like leave that with views, and we're gonna have a different life. And I think that's possibly um I think that's potentially the future. The future is that when our generations die off, hopefully we'll have a more pluralist, interdependent, and respectful society. Um the the divisions that remain in Northern Ireland at the moment tend to be in communities where you're seeing poverty, where you're seeing the the socioeconomic issues, um, driving fear and and suppose depending on the the hurt and pain of the past, to keep communities apart. Yeah. So it it's a very uh yeah, the the the youthful element of our society are moving on and want something different, but there's like a couple of generations that are still there that keep dragging us back to the past. And it also suits some of our politicians as well. Like some our politicians can sometimes uh can exploit that fear for their own political interests, and that sometimes um frustrates me really badly. Yeah, yeah. But in in um in the communities where I work, they are great communities, they're cultured, they're caring, they're compassionate, they are they want to help each other, um, they want to grow, and and they want something different, they want something better for their children and young people, which I love to see. And I think that's what keeps me going in the job, Joe.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah, well, and that's a big part of what you've been working towards for years now, right? How long have you been how long have you been doing this?

Stephen Hughes :

I've been here. Well, that's the this is in my I'm getting into my 13th year now in this community, but I've been a youth worker now my 42nd year. Um, and I've always worked, well, the majority of the time I've worked in in communities that have been impacted by the conflict. Yeah. Um, or are communities that have um been dealing with complex and legacy issues. Um I I've never worked in a bad community. I I've never left the community and went, no, that's I really don't ever want to go back there. So my my youth work here, I suppose initially I was told don't do this, don't go there, because the the community had such a bad reputation. But once I got into the community and met the people and engaged the young people, I suddenly found that um this this is not a bad community at all. It's just misunderstood. And also it was uh it was a community that had really complex issues and baggage from the past that held young people back. Do you know? And I think once we helped young people understand, uh do their own analysis and their own interpretation, because we don't um we don't help educate young people in that way. We support young people to make better decisions themselves through their own education. But um I think our young people, um once they got the opportunity to examine and explore some of the issues, you find quickly that they they they are smart and they can move on, you know. And and we see a lot of that now today.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah, I mean, I think in our context too, you see a lot of people frustrated with certain people groups. So in my context, a lot of folks that are uh experiencing homelessness and on the street and people very frustrated about you know behaviors, like the the way that those folks kind of present to the rest of the community, but it's really a lack of understanding the difficulties and the challenges that they face that creates all of that kind of reputation and stuff. Is that kind of what you're saying with the youth in your yeah?

Stephen Hughes :

I I I I'm finding um one of the one of the big challenges that I'm finding at the moment um is young people being exploited for other people's political agenda. And and whether that be um political hatred, we we're we're seeing a significant uh rise in the far right. And far right fascist organizations who blame black and brown people are to be honest, they they blame everybody but themselves. They take no responsibility for their own um their own role in society, so it's easier uh to point the finger. That can be political and it can be personal and economic gain by some people. You know, we're we're seeing we're seeing people in in the UK who are replicating some of the issues that we're seeing in the United States at the moment. So uh that that fear is used um to exploit children and young people into uh an education that's really not honest or true. And I suppose our job is is to help young people work through that. Yeah. You know, help understand what's happening to them, see when they're being and and realize when they're being exploited or are misinformed or are manipulated. Um I think that's one of our big challenges at the moment, is around that issue of of uh fear of black and brown people, um that leads to hatred, that leads to discrimination. Do you know it's it's brutal. Um and it's and it's new to us here in Northern Ireland and in Ireland in general, um we think we have a huge big problem with new immigrant communities. It's less than three percent of our population. Do you know? So we are still a very white, majority white Christian conservative society, do you know? But um when you when you listen to to some of the messages that young people are being fed, and we and in Ireland in particular, we have some awful um people who are exponents of that fear manifestation and that hatred of of black and brown people, but it's normally for you when you when you when you watch it and you follow the money, it's normally self-interest, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Nafis:

So how do you cut through that? I mean, uh, you know, we're wrestling with the same things here where there's kind of propaganda type stuff coming from all multiple different directions and trying to figure out how to help people discern like what's true and what's manipulative. I don't know, have you figured anything out?

Stephen Hughes :

For us, it's time and space. Yeah. Conversation. We we're we're uh our organization is um all of our interventions tend to be dialogical. So um it's sitting down with young people and providing that safe space to have really contentious conversations. Do you know where they can they can say um what they what they're what they're feeling, what they're hearing, what they're believing. Um they can say that in a safe space, but our job in in news services is to improve self-awareness, to use reflective practice and and and challenge to make them think about what it is they're saying and why they're saying it. Um I just feel that uh maybe we we're maybe not spending enough time on the the issues of ethnicity and identity, um, but we have some really great pieces of work that have helped. Like we've we've a really great project here in Ireland at the moment called Black and Irish, um which is absolutely wonderful at challenging some of that old uh rhetoric that's coming around. Um but we also have uh really good partnerships with our our new ethnic communities that support the the young people, the black and brown young people who use our project, do you know, because it's uh it's a safe space for them. And no matter what you are, who you are, what your abilities are, what your sexual orientation, what your practice around is, this is a safe space for children and young people. Um we we we it's one of our core ethics, you know. Um so even when young people are being f being fed this misinformation and and then some of the um the rhetoric that they're hearing through social media, it's a place for them to have those conversations.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah, so just creating a space for it and having the conversations and the encounters. I mean, uh what you shared with us when we were there was a lot about, you know, we were talking more about the the old divide, right? The wall division and how a big part of what you all were doing was just really intentionally helping people forge friendships with people on the other side of the wall, right? And that was like a big part of the healing. I mean, maybe can you share a little bit about like your your locate, like the your the youth organization, the youth center, and like specifically what you all are doing? Because I, you know, I've maybe I jumped the gun there a little bit.

Stephen Hughes :

Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying to provide a geographical image in your listeners and your listeners' heads. Um we are either side of a of a main road. So on we're on this side of the road, which is the pro-Irish nationalist Catholic community, on directly just just at this side of the building here, um, is a large 30-foot wall that segregates us from another Christian community on the other side of the wall, which is mainly Protestant, mainly unionist, and mainly loyalist. These are two, excuse me, two of the most impoverished communities in the country. On both sides. On both sides. Yep. Yeah. Um they are two communities that have been significantly hurt during the conflict. It's probably with the majority of people who have either died, they've either been victims of the conflict or perpetrators of the conflict, either side of that. They are complex. The complexities are poverty, um, poor housing, um, poor health, poor education, um, higher than average crime rates. So they're very, very complex communities. And all too often the the the gates close. So you can I can walk from now, what time's it? Yeah, it's it's almost 6 p.m. here. I can walk through to my friend and colleague on the other side, Ruth, who runs Townsend Street Youth Center. That's that's my partner group, and we work together on everything. I can walk there until 7 o'clock. At 7 o'clock, the gates close automatically, and it I then have to take a detour through Belfast City Centre to get to her building, which is 100 metres away. You know, so it becomes it becomes complex. But that segregation is not just um it's it's it doesn't happen in the majority of communities. It happens in a small number. It's probably about 90 communities have these walls that that segregate them. Our wall is the longest segregation wall outside of Israel-Palestine. And it goes from Belfast City Centre to the mountain. It's about eight knives. Yeah, and it keeps the the two communities apart. And we call them peace walls. So the idea is that the walls keep people from fighting and and and um and being violent with each other. I would I I don't ever recall or don't ever call them peace walls. I call them segregation walls because that's ultimately what they do, they keep they keep communities apart. Now, I don't live in this community where I work. I get into my car and I drive home. I'm about eight miles out the road, and I live in a mixed community. My next door neighbor um is is not of my tradition or my politics. But why do we not have a wall segregating us? You know, we're both Christian, we have different traditions, different faiths, different um politics. But why do we not need a wall to segregate us and not in our community? So to me, there's something different in the community that I work in, and that to me the the the manifestation of of what we see in this community is poverty. There's also there's also um the closer you live to the wall, the more impoverished you are as a family. You tend to be more unemployed, so you're you're benefit dependent, or what do you use call them food stamp? You're food stamp dependent, you're unhealthier, the closer you live to the wall. That's mental health, physical health, emotional health. You are more prone to crime, you know. You're less uh you underachieve in education, so you the the opportunities for achievement in education are less, and and as a result, then employment are less. So it's a self-perpetuating, um it's a self-perpetuating environment. Yeah. So it is so but the walls, people, it's funny, we we do an environment, we have a leadership program every year um where we take 20 young leaders and we work with them, we do an environmental audit, we send them out into the community to do an audit of what the big environmental issues are in the community. And I've done that now four years, and not once have the young people come back and said the walls are an environmental issue. They'll talk about air pollution, they'll talk about lack of green space, they'll talk about all the issues, graffiti, fire lighting, all the normal sort of environmental issues that you get. But they don't see the walls. They don't understand that the walls, these this wall that segregates these two communities, has a serious environmental, economic, social impact on their lives because they're so used to it. It's just normalized in society. So the the the walls are are are uh to me are the single biggest issue after poverty. Yeah.

Chris Nafis:

Well, because it's symbolic too, right? Like there's this symbolism of a past, I mean, uh I don't know if you call it past, but like this past conflict that the older generations, as you said, are uh carry. I mean, they have there's living memory of people who have been murdered and you know, real serious violence. And the young people don't have that living memory in the same way as the older generations, but the remnants of it in terms of like trauma, in terms of the messaging that they're getting from probably from parents, family members, big older folks in the community, and then from this visible physical thing that's like dividing their community is still very much a part of their life, but it's just so normalized. I don't know. Yeah, is that part of what do you think just helping people just actually come to see it, the part of the self-awareness that you're talking about and helping people grow beyond?

Stephen Hughes :

There most definitely is a um a peace dividend. Excuse me, there's most definitely a peace dividend um from from the walls, and there's almost like a tourist element now that people come to see the the dividing walls, much like many of us did when Berlin's wall came down. We all went to see the parts of the walls that remained.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah.

Stephen Hughes :

But I think there's a there's a problem with that. The problem is in in this process, apart, apart from the conflict in Belfast beginning in this community, so also did the peace process. You know, Jerry Adams, John Hume, and Father Alec Reed, when they first met in this community in Clonard Monastery, um, to talk about how they brought an end to the political violence, also began in this community. So there is an appetite for something that's different. There is an appetite in this community for a new order, as such. So the the the community, this community in the end, voted for the ceasefire in 1994 and voted for the for the um the Belfast Agreement and all subsequent agreements that have come forward. This community has continued to support them, even though the community itself has had very little benefit or dividend as a result of the peace process. You know, I think it's only now, and it's probably two generations now, we're we're 27 years um after after the ceasefire of 1998. We're we're not we still haven't moved on. And I think one of the big problems in the in the whole process is that we've never actually reconciled each other as as two communities in conflict. And I think that's that and it's not a lack of compassion as such, but it's recognition of the hurt that we that we've done on each other and taking ownership over that hurt, and then uh like amending our or apologizing and and bringing some reconciliation to that process. And I think until we do that, and and and I think about Ramsbottom's book Contemporary Conflict Resolution, he talked about reconciliation being uh almost like a camel's hump. Um and in Northern Ireland terms that the pinnacle of that hump is reconciliation. And 27 years after the after the conflict, 27 years of ceasefire, we still haven't made that stage yet. Do you know? So there's a there's still a journey ahead. And I I really hope I really hope and pray that um it comes in our generation, but I suspect it's gonna follow our children.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah.

Stephen Hughes :

Yeah. To take us through that process.

Chris Nafis:

Well, and you're doing the work to help bring that about, right? So what what is it, you know, all that's kind of the background of what you're actually doing, but what you're actually doing is welcoming a bunch of like loud, rambunctious kids, energetic kids, into the youth center to play games, and you know, you guys have like ping pong and video games and all kinds of fun stuff that you guys do. You go on you go on have events, and I've seen videos of you guys doing giant, you know, uh slip and slide type things. Like well, what are you all doing? What are you doing?

Stephen Hughes :

The the the the fun activities that you talk about are very normal growing up uh games and activities and fun that normal society and normal peer groups of children should have. But it's not really what we're about. What we're about is a relational-based service. Um, I think about I think about um communities that have been impacted by trauma and violence, um, are fearful and mistrusting of difference. So, what we want to try and do here is is using the relationship with the the adult youth worker is to take young people through a life journey. And we we use a social pedagogue model so the youth worker walks beside the young person as they make decisions in life. Do you know? So we put them into, and I tell my young people, I'm gonna make you feel uncomfortable, I'm gonna put you in uncomfortable situations so that you learn from them. I'm gonna help you reflect, I'm gonna help you self-analyse and become more self-aware. Um I'm gonna give you experiences that are gonna broaden your horizons, that are gonna test your faith, that are gonna um challenge everything about you. Do you know your fears, your mistrusts, your hatred and your prejudice, all of those things are gonna be challenged by the experiences that we provide. And and to be fair, the the work that we do with Ruth and in Townsend Street across the across the divide, um has has it's almost like graded in terms of the the learning objectives. The little ones, the the sort of seven, six, seven to eleven-year-olds, there's only one objective, Chris. And that objective is to make a friend on the other side of that wall. That's all I want my kids to do. Have experience of people who are of different faith, who are of different political opinion, who are different status or ability or whatever, and just make a friend, just have someone who you can say, my friend Charlie lives on the shingle. And and just in doing that, playing games together, having fun together, um they suddenly begin to realize Charlie's not different from me. Do you know? Actually, Charlie's very, very like me, you know, and and maybe very different to someone of a different economic status, do you know? And then it grows as they get into the we call it the pre-teens, that's sort of 12 to 14 years, we up the the um learning objectives, and and we start involving some of the more contentious issues around identity and faith and politics. And and then when they go from the from the 14 to 17 years, it gets very deep and heavy in terms of um social justice, um, citizenship, civic responsibility, civic identity, um, and then social action. What is it you do? And that's why we call it the ambassadors program. We we ask of our older young people, what's your contribution? What sort of a community do you want for your children? Do you want segregation? Do you want your children to grow up with hate and prejudice and discrimination and violence? And and the kids don't want that. You know, they want better than what we had, which I think is wonderful. So the program grows with age, um and and it is successful. Like we know it is changing, uh it's impacting violence, it's impacting attitudes, it's impacting knowledge, it's impacting moral character, you know, it's impacting faith. So all of these things are all um they're all improvements in the lives of our children and young people. And sometimes sometimes our our because they're quite young, they still don't process this, um, and sometimes it takes it can take years for this to embed. Um and I it was uh of a continuous story. Um we were at a a recent um a little bit of violence had erupted at the wall, and uh me and a couple of colleagues on either side of the wall went to that went to that Lonarkway gates, it's not far from here, and we went to the gates to try and break the young the two groups of young people up from getting involved in violence. Now the violence hadn't erupted, but the young people moved, they're quite through, they have WhatsApp chat rooms. Well, they'll go, right, the youth workers here, so we'll move somewhere else. And they moved up the road. But two of my youth workers followed the group up the road. And I stayed at the gates. Um, I was on my own, um, there was nobody else here, and suddenly this car pulls in beside me very quickly, startled me, and I went, and the window, the window came down, and it was a a grown adult, it was a man, father of three children who I'd worked with a number of years earlier. And he says, he shouts out the window, Hey, you still doing this? I says, Yeah, I'm just we're still trying. And he went, thank God, he says, um, because I have some great friends on this side of the wall now because of you. So we know it works. You know, we we have seen relationships develop, we've seen attitudes change, we've seen behaviors change. Um, and I think young people have moved on from my generation who continue to carry the experiences of the past. Um and hopefully what we will see is something new in the future.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, where do you find uh the challenge? You know, so like you talk about the younger kids, the the first level kids coming and just the only goal is just to make another friend. Do they find that easy to do once they're actually put in that situation? Is that where what are the challenges?

Stephen Hughes :

I'll I'll go on tell you another story. So we we brought the we brought the groups together back. We we our program starts every September. So we brought the groups together here in this youth center um in September. There was about 30, um, sort of seven to 10-year-olds who we we do game sessions, icebreakers, drama starters, that sort of thing. Um we had them all playing games, getting them introduced, playing name games, having fun. Um and these two little lads, 10 years of age, clearly did not like each other. The language was the language was let's let's just say it was pretty fluid um and and pretty abusive. Um ended up in a fist fight. I mean the two of them knocked the rump out of each other. Staff jumped in, got them apart, tried to talk to them, blah, blah. Nothing was working. They just hated each other, they called each other all the bad names of each other. Um yeah, that was it. We sort of went, right, that's it, that's a mess. Um, we're not gonna get these two groups together, we're not gonna get these two groups, but we persevered. These two kids now are the best of friends. These two kids now stay in each other's houses. Their parents have chat rooms where they talk. Are you dropping them over this weekend? Are we staying with you? And like they go on trips together. Two of them are the best of friends. The two kids were very, very alike and come from very, very similar backgrounds and similar families. So sometimes it's it just takes a wee bit of perseverance. Um that that was a difficult situation at the start of the little ones project. Yeah, the opposite happened this year with the older ones. So the older ones this year, we brought them together in July. Um, we we had our we had our initial session, which was uh telling the young people what the project was, this is the 14 to 17 years. We were telling them what the project looks like, um, what's what's going to be involved, what techniques we use, we're not gonna make them feel comfortable, etc. Um, and we took them away on residential, took them away for the weekend to camp. And we were worried, after the previous experience with the little ones, we were worried that this is gonna be difficult because older teenagers, they can be a bit more toxic in terms of their their belief system and their experiences. And it was the opposite, Chris. We actually we are still talking about it as workers now, it's only a few months in, but we're still talking about um how well this worked, how successful it was, how quickly they they developed relationships, um, how quickly they trusted each other. They now come in and out of each other's communities. They're they're organizing their own events and their own activities in Belfast City Center. Um and and to us, this this was done without, I mean, any hindrance, any barriers. It was like I'm still shocked. I know we're only a couple of months in. I'm still shocked by it.

unknown:

Yeah.

Stephen Hughes :

Do you know? We still have the teenage tantrums, we still have huffiness. We had an incident last night, we were on the peace line last night, um, with the group talking about the impacts of the peace war. Um, and there was a bit of a tantrum last night. So there was. But it was an internal tantrum, an internal tantrum by a small group of young women. Do you know? And had really nothing to do with the bigger good relations or cross-community contact. It was just some young women had a fallout with each other, but it manifested itself in the group last night. That group is is absolutely shattering us how well and how quickly the group has got on together. And and it makes it it actually makes the the work exciting going forward. Yeah. Because you you don't know what, you don't know where this group's going. Because we start introducing, we've started introducing some of the contentious issues. So we talk about identity, we've already started that, we're talking about definitions of sectarianism, power, oppression, discrimination. Um, we're we've now entered in, we've uh uh an element of the program called exposure, where the young people get exposed to the most the more contentious issues. So they have to meet faith leaders, the the the two Christian traditions, the Protestant and Catholic traditions. So they have to meet faith leaders, they have to meet police, they have to meet ex-combatants, people who hated each other, a British soldier, uh loyalist paramilitary, and a Republican paramilitary. Um they have to meet uh the victims, and what's the fifth one? Oh, and peace builders. So that that element of the program is called exposure. And it's uh it's almost like a a truth share type situation where young people have the it's a very open and safe environment. They the workshop facilitators who come and and deliver on the themes, they know that the young people have the opportunity to ask any questions. Nothing's off the table. And now you get some questions that are more interesting than than others, you know. But um it's a process, and some of that I think um it excites me going forward how well this group has scaled as a friendship group, what what might be the potential in them and in them working through the workshops, better understanding the concepts of of sectarianism and what it looks like and how it manifests itself in our society. It's exciting.

Chris Nafis:

And do you do you feel like that's a big change just generationally from like when you first came here 13 years ago or when you first started doing this work 40 years ago? You know what I mean? Like, is that is that a notion of the conflict?

Stephen Hughes :

Is it fun it's real it's really funny you asked that question because um I'm here 13 years and I think we're we're in a a transition period here at the moment. For the first 13 years, for the first five years, um nobody supported the organization, nobody supported the work, nobody trusted anybody in the organization. Um and and to be fair, we we were attacked, my car was attacked, we received death threats, all of those sorts of things happened in the first sort of four or five years. Um in the subsequent eight years, um we have not that we've worn down the community, but I think we've proved to the community that um we're here for the best interest of the young people. Yeah. And that has changed. And I we're we're we funny, the staff team were away um at the start of September talking about this very subject, and we believe we're in a transition period. So for the previous 13 years, everything that we've been doing has been reactionary, firefighting, responding to critical situations, whether it be death or suicide or overdoses or interface violence, whatever it may be, we we've had to respond to child sexual exploitation, child criminal exploitation. But now we're in a place where we're not having to be as reactionary anymore, and we can be a wee bit more proactive. So what we're what we're we're in a place now where we're being very specific about what the critical needs of the young people are and how we can ensure that we remove those barriers to young people becoming better citizens or are healthier and and better well, being more resilient, you know, better educated, whatever it may be. But that that's it that's where we are at the moment. So we're we're being a wee bit more um better planned, more focused and intentional, um, less reactionary and more proactive. And uh that that sort of excites me. I think we can be much more effective.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah, so no longer just like crisis to crisis, one thing to the next. You're now able to do like formative work at a deep level that's actually kind of getting to the identity and the and kind of the the heart of the children, the youth, so that they can be made into people that are more in line with uh peace and justice and love and those settings. Man, that's beautiful. Is that you know, organizationally, like you guys have kind of learned how to do this better, or like what do you how do you attribute that?

Stephen Hughes :

Well, yeah, to be honest, Chris, I've had a lot of I've I've been I was involved with a program about 15 years ago run by the American government. It's a program called Ambit, and it was run through the International Fund for Ireland. Um, and what it's done is it brought um young leaders, well, maybe more than it's maybe more than 15 years ago. Um, it brought all these leaders together or potential leaders together. Um they brought us to the United States. So we went, we spent a bit of time in Newark, spent a bit of time in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. Um, friends that I made for life. Um we got we got um I'll I'll probably say engaged without saying married to an organization in in Pittsburgh called uh Amazade. So it's A-M-A-Z, A-M-A-Z-A-D-E. So it's a uh Portuguese word for friendship. Um guy called Brandon Blanche Cohen. Um and Amazadi um our relationship began to flourish. We we began to look at um why we do the work, how we do the work, um, and they introduced uh a couple of new concepts to us, um, one of which is uh strength-based youth work. It's a theoretical um intervention that was designed by a South Dakota professor called Laurie Bentrel. Um, and that changed my not just my analysis or my understanding of what was happening in my own work, but it changed my values, it changed my ethos, it changed everything about me as a as a practitioner. Um and it helped me see that all behavior is communication. It helped me see that um the person behind the the behavior is to be valued and to be loved and to be cared for, um, and the behavior can be managed and adopted and and relearned. Um Brandon and and the the team at Amazon, along with a guy in work, um Thomas Owens, who who's the chief executive of um Mentor Newark, I think it's called Mentor Neuk or Newark Mentor. Um it's like a big brother, big sister type organization in New York. Um he dealt with education and learning, um, taught me an awful lot. Um that we we attended their church services in in Newark um and it was a profound experience for me. It was uh a very understanding, compassionate, caring um intervention in the lives of children and young people and in New York. And together these people, along with the the the learning that we done in the in the Anbit program, sort of changed um how I do what I do and why I do what I do. Um and I think it has probably um it's probably changed not just my not just my uh attitude and my thinking, but it changed my very ethos. It changed my um my concepts and understanding of faith. And in because I I grew up in a community that was divided. I I grew up in one of the most violent communities in in Belfast. So I was full of prejudice and hate and and sectarianism. Um but it taught me something different. As a result, I ended up as a result, I ended up engaging with much more American groups, in particular university students, and bringing them in to do service in in Belfast in different youth clubs. Um but I think what these students, I think all youth work teaches you um through experience, um but I think what it taught me and what enabled me to share with my children and young people was um the frustration that Americans feel when they come into Belfast. Like, how can two Christian communities be so antagonistic and be so hateful? And when really um we as a society we just hadn't worked through what sectarianism means. And when it when we realize that this isn't really about faith, this is more about more about power and money, you know, then it it it sort of it changes your trajectory and it changes the way you work. It changes who you work with and why you work with them. You know, and I think that's that has been one of the it's been one of the biggest life lessons for me, you know, and it keeps me focused on why I do what I do, bringing both communities together. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Nafis:

So what is that like practically speaking, what does the change look like? So like you have, you know, let's say you have you you described uh you told a story where you had two kids coming in from different parts of the of the community, you know, they're they're yelling at each other in a fist fight with one another. Uh, you know, how do you handle that differently than you would have previously?

Stephen Hughes :

Or I I think we overcomplicate them, Chris. I really do. Um, these are two kids that were very alike, um, that come from communities that teach each other to hate each other. Yeah, so that's what they expected when they when we brought these two kids along with the two groups together. The expectation is I need to hate them. And we call it demons syndrome. So P-H-E-M, hyphen, U-N-S, demons. So we when we teach them that they point fingers at each other, it's demons. People on the other side of the wall, it's always demons. But what we do is we teach them, see these three fingers when you're pointing at someone else, the three fingers that point back at you. What about you first? Sort you out first. Before you start talking about demons, what's your prejudice? Why do you hate it? But you know, and we work through that dialogical process of helping kids and young people work through why they believe what they believe is absolutely critical. And it has to be a safe space. Like we we we done an exercise a couple of weeks back where we get the young people to put up the names that they call each other. And it, I mean, there's a lot of prejudice, there's a lot of names and name calling, you know, in in the young people, but they don't know why. They don't know what they mean. Do you know? They don't know why they're regurgitating them, it's just normal. And then when you explain how hurtful and and prejudicial those those that name calling is and what impact it can have, they sort of suddenly you can see young people, the penny drops, and you can hear them changing. So the terminology changes, the name calling stops. Do you know? They become a wee bit more apathetic. They definitely become more compassionate. When they hear the stories of family members who've had fathers and grandfathers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, uncles all killed in this process, maimed, people left without children or without parents, or or brothers or sisters, or whatever it may be, when they hear these stories and these stories become real, it suddenly changes how they um how they understand and interpret sectarianism. So that that changes the knowledge base, it changes the attitude, and it changes the behavior. But more importantly for us, it it it changes the moral fabric and the character of the young person. They suddenly become something different, and it's one it's absolutely wonderful to see. I heard it last week, and when I heard a young person say, Please don't say that, you'll upset my friend. Do you know? So we it's not to say it stops entirely, because I I would be telling you lies. It still happens. We still get rhetoric and we still get young people who repeat words for the sake of repeating them. But we see that growth, we see that progression in their in their behavior, and then and then how they how they sell themselves, how they market themselves, you know. And I think that's that's the bit that that keeps you going. And we've had young people from that have been severely impacted and severely damaged by the conflict uh in in our in our programs. And you can see that change happening. It's it's it's what keeps you motivated, which is what keeps you going.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah.

Stephen Hughes :

So instead of seeing there's other events as well, there's other activities that they we've a great um we've a great uh photographic exhibition in the hall just launched, um, where they've taken photographs from each community. Um, and they're sharing that through the photographic exhibition of little write-ups and that. We're just about to launch uh an a new video, Zoe R, which is the ambassador's video. It actually goes out tomorrow, so you'll be able to um you'll see it on our uh YouTube channel, and you'll be able to share some of that with with your listeners. Um young people are working on the interfaces, changing the physical environment, painting in murals, painting out graffiti, litter picking, um changing the messages on our walls, changing the language on our walls, um, change take painting out the heat speech that's on our walls. So they take responsibility for it as well, and they own this process. You know, they make those decisions, they undertake that work, they don't get paid for it. It's it's a it's a civic responsibility thing. Um, and I think that's that's another impact and huge success of the the programs that we run.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah. I mean, to what is you know, uh I'm a as a pastor and uh thinking of this in like faith language, it sounds like a discipleship program to me. You know what I mean? Like you're helping find find discipline in into being uh better, you know, living into who they really are meant to be instead of uh the things that the the negativity of the world has shaped them to be. And that's kind of what I hear you saying. Yeah.

Stephen Hughes :

I'm really glad to say that and and I'm enthused at the moment by the way our churches are working together. Because all too often the the churches were very segregated during the conflict as well, and and they aligned themselves with their own communities. Um, thankfully, um, we've got really strong leadership in in all of our churches, in all denominations. Um that I think that we're beginning to see the benefit from. Um, a great program for International Peace Day last night in or sorry on Sunday night in the in Farset. And uh we we seen all the churches coming together doing wonderful work. Our own church here is working with with some of the churches on the Shangle Road, um, bringing adults together mainly. Uh, we do the we tend to do the youth work. They bring adult parishioners together um for different events and activities and and prayer groups. And um I I I love to see that and I I love to see the churches leading from the front, you know, and leading in a very compassionate and current manner that is sensitive to people's histories and backgrounds and baggage, um but at the same time providing that leadership for communities going forward. It's it's absolutely beautiful to watch. And it is the cycleship. So it is. It is it is a Christian Judy as so much, but it's not one that they need to take on. But they do, they've crossed the nettle and and they're doing that not just well, but I think it's beautiful to watch. Um some of the events taking place, yeah. Yeah. It gives me a bit of faith that we have a future, do you know?

Chris Nafis:

Yeah. Yeah, man, it's great to hear the hope that's in everything that you're saying and the the way that you can envision, even in the midst of poverty and struggle, and you know, it's not that these kids don't have any issues or something like that, but that there's this open future, not just for the individual youth, but for the community as a whole, to kind of create a better, a better life, better community, better world for um for the next generation and for their adulthood.

Stephen Hughes :

Well, and for me, that this is a great fun job. Yeah. It's complex and it's tough sometimes emotionally. Um, I'm not I'm getting much older now. Um I'm not maybe as physically able as what I am in the past. Um, but I have my I have my abilities and I love the job. I love watching young people achieve. I love seeing them thrive, do you know? And I love to see them taking on new opportunities and and a new journey in life. Do you know? I think it's it's just it's it's the the greatest pleasure of this job. It's actually a it's a privilege that I have to be in the lives of children and young people and watching that and getting to watch that growth happening. It's it's an absolute I say my prayers every day and thank our Lord for for giving me that privilege and um and hopefully he gives me another day tomorrow, do you know?

Chris Nafis:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, thanks for doing the job. It it's it's inspiring and uh and helpful. It's helpful to be there, it's helpful to hear you kind of tell the tell the stories, and you know, it gives me hope and faith, even from you know the other side of the world over here in San Diego, to uh that that maybe there's some hope for us, you know. Uh the United States is in a place that we've reflected often. It feels like we're on the front end potentially of a bad conflict, and hopefully we can take some different um routes than the ones that we seem to be on now. But uh, you know, we don't feel like we don't get much good news these days. Um, and so I hear some from you, you know, it's good.

Stephen Hughes :

I feel sorry for my um American friends and colleagues, and we we have a long-term relationship, as I said, with Newark, with Thomas and Owens and and Mantor Newark with Highlander High School in Rhode Island. Who we have an exchange program that happens every year. That's went to the wall now, um, because of some of the stuff that's happening in terms of in the United States travel arrangements. Um but yeah, our our hearts and prayers go out to to the American public um that you should get some really good leadership, and uh and hopefully it doesn't go the way that we all think it might go.

Chris Nafis:

Yeah.

Stephen Hughes :

Any advice for us? Pray. I always believe in the power of prayer. Um I think our churches and our church leaders have a great opportunity um to help take this thing out of some of the politics, the politics of hate, the politics of fear, the politics of greed. Yeah, you know. Um I've been traveling to the United States now for 30 years. And I don't meet what I see on the TV, that what I hear from the media is not the people that I meet when I go to the United States. I I meet um philanthropists, I meet people who are loving and turn and who want to make the world a better place. I just it just worries me sometimes when I when I hear and say, and don't get me wrong, we we have the same problem here. Sure. We can see the growth of this hate and fear-mongering here in in the UK and Ireland and in Europe. Um I just hope, I and I do believe, Chris, there's far more people that are loving, caring, compassionate, apathetic, understanding, helpful, and loving again. Um I think there's more of us. Um and we just need to stand up and do what we need to do, um, and be that loving caring society. And I think America will get through this, use it will to us, and hopefully we'll not uh we'll not allow this hate to grow in the world. Um, I think there's too many good people out there for them for allow this to happen. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Nafis:

Well, appreciate that and appreciate your your example and uh and the inspiration that comes from the work that you have been doing faithfully for so many years now. Um any any final word, anything you want to share about what you're doing that we haven't talked about?

Stephen Hughes :

Thank your listeners for hearing the rambles of an old man, you know. Um I I've loved I loved meeting you all when you came across the island, and I uh hopefully this helps in some way. Um all it is is a story of a of a small inner city youth project. Um yeah, but we we believe you change one person, you change the world, you know. Yeah, for sure.

Chris Nafis:

And that's what we need to continue to do. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, thanks for your time and uh and and again appreciate everything. Like it was it was a joy to be there in person, to meet you in person, and uh really grateful that I got to have another chance to talk to you, ask you some questions. Uh for those who are listening, thanks for thanks for listening. Uh if you find these episodes helpful, you know, share them with somebody, send it to somebody, say, hey, listen to this, because uh this is a cool story or this is an inspiring thing, or this is what I think we need to be doing, or or hate it, you know, send it to someone and say, I hate this. Can you, you know, tell me and then you can send me your emails and all that, but uh but let's let's uh you know I'm I'm making these so that we can share them. So please share them, hit subscribe or whatever, and uh more importantly, go out, make a friend on the other side of our divide. Uh do something good today that um can help build you into a better, a better version of yourself and um allow God to shape your life in something that looks like hope and love and and justice and joy. Um thanks for thanks for joining in. Thanks again, uh Steven, and uh hopefully we'll catch you next time.

Stephen Hughes :

The cattle's always on, Chris. Next time you're over.

Chris Nafis:

Oh, I'll come get some tea for sure. All right, see you soon.

Stephen Hughes :

Bye, everyone.

Head Shot

Chris Nafis

Host
Contributor

Stephen Hughes

Guest