It Takes Heart
It Takes Heart is an unmissable podcast where healthcare workers share their honest and unique experiences from Australia’s frontline.
Discover real-life stories of passion and purpose, insight and inspiration from people on the inside and tales that are equal parts heart-warming, heart-wrenching and hilarious. It Takes Heart is co-hosted by cmr | Cornerstone Medical Recruitment CEO Samantha Miklos and Head of Talent and Employer Branding Kate Coomber.
It Takes Heart
Burnout or Worn Out? Ruth Limkin on the Six Pillars of Wellbeing
What happens when rest doesn’t work? When even after sleep, time off, or a holiday, you still feel depleted? That’s the reality of burnout and it’s something Ruth Limkin has seen up close.
As Founder of The Banyans, Ruth shares how burnout often hides in plain sight - from professionals quietly struggling with addiction to healthcare workers pushing through chronic fatigue. She explains the difference between being worn out and being burnt out and why recovery takes more than just a good night’s sleep.
We explore the early signs many overlook, the six dimensions of wellbeing, and how The Banyans’ team of up to 14 specialists work together to support deep, whole-person healing. Ruth also shares simple, science-backed practices, like time in nature and quality sleep, that can shift your mental health for the better.
This episode is for you if you’re feeling constantly drained, supporting others through tough seasons, or ready to rethink what true wellbeing looks like.
The Banyans are generously offering listeners a free download of their Facets of Wellbeing Workbook - a practical tool to help you explore your personal wellbeing landscape and begin mapping a more resilient, sustainable path forward. Download for free here.
It Takes Heart is hosted by cmr CEO Sam Miklos, alongside Head of Talent and Employer Branding, Kate Coomber.
We Care; Music by Waveney Yasso
More about Ruth's Organisations of Choice, Sober in the Country.
Sober in the Country is a grassroots bush charity creating radical social change and saving the lives of rural and remote Australians affected by alcohol harm through their advocacy, straight talk, lived experience, partnerships, and their online peer-support group, the Bush Tribe. They don't preach prohibition... they teach communities the power of social inclusion.
Get to know cmr better!
Follow @ittakesheartpodcast on Instagram, @cmr | Cornerstone Medical Recruitment on Linked In, @cornerstonemedicalrec on TikTok and @CornerstoneMedicalRecruitment on Facebook.
Today's guest has seen what happens when driven high-achieving people push past their limits without ever stopping to ask am I okay?
Ruth Limkin:It's a lot easier to hide problematic drinking and substance use if you're working from home, because it can be a teacup. We've worked with a really successful female leader and she would open her first bottle of wine at 9 o'clock in the morning because she was working from home, ran a few companies and she could, and she could and no one knew. Second bottle of wine at 9 o'clock in the morning because she was working from home, ran a few companies and she could, and she could and no one knew.
Ruth Limkin:Second bottle of wine at lunchtime. So by the time she was picking the kids up, two bottles of wine.
Kate Coomber:If you're enjoying these conversations, don't forget to hit the follow and subscribe button.
Sam Miklos:We care for the land. We see we care. So today we meet Ruth Limkin, founder and managing director of the Banyans, a world-renowned facility here in southeast Queensland providing one-to-one wraparound care for those who may have experienced things like burnout, grief, addiction or trauma. Welcome, ruth, to. It Takes Heart.
Ruth Limkin:Thank you, it's really great to be here.
Sam Miklos:That one-to-one wraparound care, just that in itself is so beautifully put.
Ruth Limkin:It's remarkable when you see the reality of it and honestly, I think it's what we would do for everyone in the health system if we could.
Sam Miklos:I know we can't in the reality.
Ruth Limkin:but there are people who that's really the only way that they'll access care and they're willing to invest in that, so they deserve treatment too.
Sam Miklos:Yeah, 100%, burnout is everywhere.
Ruth Limkin:Absolutely.
Sam Miklos:It is showing up in our workplaces, in our living rooms. We're hearing about it all the time. It's a topic that's a really common theme in our healthcare community. A lot of our candidates our clients are talking about burnout, so we were really grateful to be able to have this conversation with you today.
Kate Coomber:Now I've got a quote that I believe you've said it's going to be awkward if I read this and you go that wasn't me, so I managed to find the research.
Sam Miklos:Let's see. You've said we have to make it easier to talk about what's hard. We have to remind people that strength doesn't mean silence, but that strength comes from struggle and the overcoming of it. That was you, that was me Explain that. What does that mean?
Ruth Limkin:So I think we've had historically, and maybe particularly in healthcare, because we put a focus on our patients and the people that we're looking after and we're meant to be the people with all the answers and we're providing a place of often strength for people to come to when they're vulnerable.
Ruth Limkin:But the the idea that we just have to suck it up, you know, press on, I think is a bit of a narrative that's been around historically. That's actually really unhelpful and actually weakens us as individuals but also weakens the healthcare system, because if we have this endemic sort of deterioration of wellbeing happening under the surface and we don't actually shine the light on it and give people the opportunity to get help early and to continue to work in a way that they can while they're getting help, then we're actually making the whole system weaker, and so it's very much an individual issue. But it's not just an individual issue. It's a system issue, it's also a cultural issue, it's a community issue. You know, our society works best when human flourishing takes place, and we try and provide that as a healthcare system. But we need to be enabling it for health care practitioners and you mentioned there's sort of a shift, like it's.
Kate Coomber:It's really it's something we weren't talking about toughen up years ago, certainly when we were growing up, and yeah, you know it's um, like it's great to see a focus on it, yeah, but I guess can you talk to us about what is burnout? And maybe what it isn't, because I think in the same token, yeah, like literally, we probably speak about it every single day with someone yeah, we are having a conversation with.
Ruth Limkin:Yes so it was really interesting because a world health organization actually classed burnout as a condition about five years ago. Uh, was that? Maybe?
Sam Miklos:a little bit, it was. It Was that pre-COVID.
Ruth Limkin:It was actually pre-COVID which means it was longer than five years ago, because it's now been five years since COVID and I was looking at it and they specifically link it to workload and workplaces. However, as I was looking at that, I was like I actually think that's a false, not diagnosis but a false definition, because Because, yes, it shows up and there are contributors in the workforce and the workplace and workloads, but I actually think all of life at the moment, you know, cost of living is a pressure that adds, and then the always on connection and the you know people expecting very quick turnarounds of information is another, and the you know people expecting very quick turnarounds of information is another.
Ruth Limkin:You know, the Banyans has seen a 684% increase in inquiries for stress and burnout in the last couple of years, which is phenomenal. So one that concerns me, but two that comforts me that people are actually reaching out and acknowledging it, and I think COVID was a contributor to what's going on in leadership, wellbeing and healthcare wellbeing, but it's actually also started to provoke a conversation about it. So it's been both part of the problem, but I think it creates an environment where we can talk about it a little bit more.
Sam Miklos:So what does burnout?
Ruth Limkin:look like you know, because I feel like too.
Sam Miklos:At times it's a term where we go. I'll say I'm just burnt out.
Ruth Limkin:Yes, yeah.
Sam Miklos:But is there a spectrum of burnout?
Ruth Limkin:So I think there's a difference between being worn out and burnt out. So you know, sometimes worn out is just it's been a really big week or a really big month or a season of weeks where there's been a lot of travel or whatever has been going on. You've got deadlines, but you can recharge from that. If you're just intentional about it. Burnout there's often a sense of reduced efficacy, so you're not as effective in your job anymore. There's you, you can't recharge. You try and do the things that you know normally to do hopefully that you know normally to do and it you can't work out and it's just this, unable to bounce back. So you know, sometimes people flame out. But burnout is this steady accumulation of everything that's going on and the inability to get up from over that.
Kate Coomber:So I guess one of the early warning signs perhaps, and then leading into you know when are people really catching themselves? Yeah what are the phases?
Ruth Limkin:so one of the things I'm really passionate about at the banyans is I often say I would love to put myself out of business, because I really like talking about the fact that if we, particularly as leaders and as health care professionals, can be taking proactive, preventative steps, so no one gets to that kind of crisis point. So we do. We have a range of more proactive. We call it a high performance reset. It's a one day where someone can come in and have a mindset recharge. You know, talk to an exercise physiologist, talk to the clinical nutritionist, do some mindfulness in the same way that we get our car serviced.
Ruth Limkin:It's kind of like going in for a bit of a checkup but for our whole well-being. And so I think you know if someone's listening to this and they're thinking am I just worn out or am I getting burnt out? So some of the things sleep is actually a really good indicator If you're waking up every morning and you're still exhausted, if you can't get to sleep, or if you wake that dreaded 2 am wake up and then you can't get back if that's happening, not just occasionally, because sometimes that just happens, but this is happening time after time, that's actually a really important signal that we need to be looking at.
Ruth Limkin:A loss of joy, um, you know, just that sense of nothing. There's no joy in your soul. Um, this sense of you know. Sometimes also your immune system is very affected, so you're just always getting sick or you can't get over things and do you think?
Kate Coomber:unless you're really in tune with yourself, those things are actually hard to spot, because you're busy and I haven't noticed that I don't have joy and you think about the healthcare professionals who are doing shift work and crazy hours Soldering on and keep going, keep going. I imagine they're quite actually difficult to notice.
Ruth Limkin:Which is why these conversations are so important. So it's so great that you're doing it because the more that we talk about it, we can't move to action if there's no awareness. We also don't want to get stuck in awareness but, they both work together. We need awareness and talking about it, and maybe someone's listening to this on their way to work or something like that, and they're like, oh, actually, you're describing my world at the moment, can you just?
Sam Miklos:sorry to jump in. But I was just going to say can you recover from burnout?
Ruth Limkin:Absolutely.
Sam Miklos:And how long does it take?
Ruth Limkin:So, again, this is why talking about it and early intervention is really important, because the sooner that you recognise something's going on, often the quicker that you can recover and less is the impact of treatment that's needed. And it could be something that you start doing while you're still going about your life or it could be at the point where you need to take some time out. I remember talking to someone years ago at the Banyans. I was answering the phone and he ran a company and he said, oh, the wheels haven't fallen off, but they're really wobbly. And I said now's the time to do something. So we redesigned a program that we have called the Rest and Refresh and you know, if we can start to recognise when the wheels are a bit wobbly before they fall off, then actually it's a really smart investment in our health.
Sam Miklos:You know with blood tests show like your cortisol levels are high or adrenal fatigue. Are they also early signs? Or if you're in adrenal overload, is it too late?
Ruth Limkin:Well, it's never too late, yeah, sorry, no, that's right Like are you already there?
Sam Miklos:Yeah, if you're getting that adrenal fatigue, I think you are at the point where you absolutely need to do something, yeah.
Ruth Limkin:But again there's. I don't ever want people to feel hopeless or helpless, and so there are really. You know, we do have a great healthcare system in Australia, even though people who are working in it are finding it difficult. There are always options, and at different levels.
Kate Coomber:Let's talk about those options then, because you said that if someone's listening and they're thinking yes, and, like you said, it's never too late and early intervention and people often have tried and they're actually struggling to get into resources or they can't afford resources or you know you've got some psychiatrists you know working off because they're not comfortable. They can provide safe care. Yeah, where do people go?
Ruth Limkin:So I think the first thing is go to someone you know and trust. Um, so you know, interestingly, one of the best predictors for well-being according to the world's longest well-being study, the Harvard adult development study is supportive social relationships. So, at a very minimum, moving out of a sense of isolation into a sense of connection is the most important first step, and even just not feeling like you've got to solve this yourself is really important. So you know, going to someone either that you work with or in your family or a friend or something like that, and saying, hey, look, I'm actually not doing great and I just need to find a way forward for that, and can you help me? And I just need to find a way forward for that, and can you help me? And if you're the person who gets that question, you say, yeah, I don't know what yet, but let's do it together. So it's okay, you don't have to be the fount of all wisdom.
Ruth Limkin:I think going in if you've got a good, trusted GP going and talking to your GP is the first step, obviously, we all know there's referrals for mental health care plans and those kinds of things and you know, yes, there can be a bit of a waiting list for psychology, but there's also amazing telehealth psychology services around. So I met an incredible leader. She came to one of our leadership wellbeing dinners in Sydney, philippa Brown, who runs MeHelp. It's Medicare funded telehealth, psychologyhealth, psychology. So you know, people can jump on that website and book something in and sometimes all you have to do is have one, two, three sessions and just start. You know that in and of itself is giving you agency. You're starting to do something, you're getting some great tools. I was talking to someone the other day and for the first time they went and saw a psychologist about something that had been bugging them for years and even after one session they're like I've got some really good tools now and, yes, they're going back to see some others.
Kate Coomber:But never underestimate the power of one great session yeah, I think that's really good to know, because I think people might feel it's too big of problem and a couple of days off isn't going to change or help me feel better. So I think it's really positive to hear that you can have that really great feeling absolutely off just one session, and I think you talked about connection there as well.
Sam Miklos:We were talking about that yesterday.
Kate Coomber:Um, you know the interlink with covid and people being disconnected you, you just mentioned the huge spike. Yeah, and I'm sure that has some contributing factors there. What are you seeing in the world we live in now? That's different around connection.
Ruth Limkin:So we are more fragmented and it's really interesting. You know work from home. I was just thinking that I was like do I ask you about work from? Home, let's go there. Yeah, let's go there. Yeah, let's go there.
Sam Miklos:Let's be brave yeah.
Ruth Limkin:So we know that social connection is really important for mental health and wellbeing. A lot of people, a lot of the most important relationships in their world or the best sense of social connection actually is in the workplace, and it's not the same quality if you're dialling in to a screen in back-to-back meetings. It's just not the case. So I'm not saying everyone has to return to the office five days a week, but I think working isolated by yourself from a screen five days a week is really detrimental to your health and well-being, and often longer than you would in the office.
Kate Coomber:Absolutely, I think people think people are not working at home and that's the issue, but.
Ruth Limkin:I read something yesterday to say it's actually the reverse, yes, and people are working too much at home and not having the breaks. Yeah, you know the interaction, the social, the water cooler chat yeah, and you know, one of the other things that we see at the banyans is um, and again, let's go there um. So it's a lot easier to hide problematic drinking and substance use if you're working from home, because it can be a teacup.
Ruth Limkin:You know, we've worked with a really successful female leader and she would open her first bottle of wine at 9 o'clock in the morning because she was working from home ran a few companies and she could. And she could and no one knew. Second bottle of wine at lunchtime. So by the time she's picking the kids up two bottles of wine. So I think you know, social connection has a lot of protective factors and we need to think about that when we think about what does work and life look like?
Kate Coomber:Yeah, I think sometimes we show up more for others than we do for ourselves, and I guess it comes down to that If you're at home, you're only having to show up for yourself.
Sam Miklos:Yeah, it's probably not the best version sometimes. While we're on the workplace, then I know, said that you know, the world health organization was attributing it to the workplace. Yeah, what, um, what do we need to be doing? You know, as an employer, what and you know with the, with the, the days that we're in now is the little micro changes that we can do? Or, and also, how do we better support people who are feeling burnt out?
Kate Coomber:or worn out, as you said. Said or recognize it, even recognize it.
Sam Miklos:Yeah, you know we've got eap programs, but it's like but then you said that going, you can have three sessions, like okay, well, there's eap, there's, there's little steps there so I think it's making it part of the conversation all of the time and I think as leaders also, we have to model that.
Ruth Limkin:So I'm really deliberate. There's a particular gym class that I love going to that starts at 4.30 and it's just across the road from where I work, and I normally work till after 4.30, but most weeks during the week I'll go and get changed into my gym gear and go and say goodbye to everyone in the office because I know I'm going to that class to send a really clear signal that actually doing things for our well-being is really important and I'm going to do it as the leader, and so that gives you permission to just be having these conversations and talking about what's needed. I think also, I'm always really clear about the fact I see a psychologist once every six months at different seasons.
Ruth Limkin:I've done that more, but I'd put that in the diary as a check-in in the same way that I get my car tuned up, like one time I was driving there and I was like I've got nothing to say.
Sam Miklos:I don't know how I'm going to fill this session. Yeah, yeah, I'm good. I'm really good at the minute.
Ruth Limkin:yeah, then you sit down. She asked, asks one question. It's like okay, 45 minutes later, but it's someone outside of your world that you can bounce things across and process things with. I think so little things like standing desks and maybe you can't afford to swap all the desks in your office, but just think, like I often say to people and I actually really encourage people to take control of their own wellbeing, so don't outsource it to your employer or your workplace.
Ruth Limkin:There's fundamental, simple, cheap or free things we can do to look after our own wellbeing. I know this might sound strange for someone who's on the ward and on their feet all the time, but for people at a desk, even just standing up whenever you're making a phone call.
Sam Miklos:Do you know?
Ruth Limkin:standing, instead of sitting, for three to four hours a day, is the equivalent activity output of running 10 marathons a year.
Sam Miklos:I have heard that.
Ruth Limkin:I couldn't remember how many.
Kate Coomber:Yes, that was you then, and I remember, because we do have stand-up desks.
Sam Miklos:And you know what drives me wild is everyone goes and sits with them and everyone wanted them and I'm like let's stand up, but then I'm probably not modelling it.
Ruth Limkin:I'm going to test out my husband.
Kate Coomber:He used to love them. He was always there and you used to do yoga in the office at lunch.
Sam Miklos:And you know, I think it's a consistency piece, isn't it? If you're?
Kate Coomber:doing that class at 4.30 every day. It sometimes is easy to deviate.
Sam Miklos:Yeah, you definitely get distracted, don't we? So? It's really it's keeping those consistent, positive actions, yeah, yeah, Do you know if you know if someone's at work and you know if they're looking like they're recognising the signs and they're not finding joy in their work? Can that get confused with? You know I'm burnt out, but actually it might be as simple as a shift to a new environment.
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, yeah, or a new role, or maybe the job that they're in they've outgrown.
Sam Miklos:Yeah, which is okay, absolutely.
Ruth Limkin:Occupational wellbeing is one of the six dimensions of wellbeing.
Sam Miklos:Yeah.
Ruth Limkin:And that doesn't mean you have to stay in the same job for the rest of your life in order for, although you can.
Kate Coomber:To be fair, I've had a thousand jobs in the one business We've been together for 13 years.
Sam Miklos:I'm like you know. Give me five, I'll send you to Ruth if you like, end of it.
Kate Coomber:So yes, you mentioned there the dimensions of wellness. Can you talk to us about that?
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, so one of the things when I first started the Banyans, I found a version of dimensions of wellbeing that the National Wellness Institute put out, but we changed it because we recognised actually our wellbeing is much more integrated. So it's not like there's six discrete areas of wellbeing, but there's six facets of wellbeing and they all influence each other, which is actually really good news because it means you don't have to do six different things to improve your well-being. I remember doing this with you.
Sam Miklos:now, that's right. I'm like I've done this with you and it was so powerful.
Ruth Limkin:So we actually did this with the Broncos. This week. We're doing some well-being workshops with their staff, but then also with some of their corporate partners, because and shout out to the Broncos they're doing Australia's first mental health jersey this week, because they really want to spark conversations about mental health and wellbeing.
Kate Coomber:Yes, you talked, then, about the dimensions of wellbeing. What are they?
Ruth Limkin:Okay, well, look, there's six of them and I'll run you through them quickly and then I'll talk to you about how we did some work on the model. So there's physical wellbeing, social wellbeing, emotional wellbeing, occupational wellbeing, intellectual wellbeing and spiritual wellbeing.
Sam Miklos:The good news is for anyone who's feeling a little bit overwhelmed about they've got to do six different things, just like a water heater, because I've done this with you and I remember seeing it all and going this is a lot.
Kate Coomber:How do I? Fix six parts of me that need a bit of work, exactly.
Ruth Limkin:Do they all need work? Yeah, so the good news? So we didn't make those dimensions up. I found a model of wellbeing from the National Wellness Institute, but they had each dimension as very discreet. I said that's actually not how real life works, that's not how our body works, and so we've redeveloped the model to show that they're all integrated, which is really good news, because what we know is that if you make one positive change in one of those dimensions, it actually often produces positive outcomes in the other dimensions as well. So you can just do one thing and that can create positive difference in various dimensions. And so I always say to people like, particularly for people who are highly responsible, a-type personalities driven, you're not allowed to do more than one thing.
Sam Miklos:Yeah, I remember sitting there and being like you've said do three.
Kate Coomber:I was like I'm in the calendar.
Sam Miklos:I'll do seven. Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Limkin:So just doing one thing that's free and that's sustainable. And I often also say to people don't try and start something, because if you already feel like your life is overfull or you're overwhelmed, that's not going to get a lot of traction. So I say just stop or swap. Yeah, stop doing something or swap something out.
Sam Miklos:And I was just going to say from memory, when I did this with you, the actual actions, yeah, were quite easy things.
Kate Coomber:Yes, that's where I was going to go. What are some examples of them?
Sam Miklos:So I remember they were a bit like oh, that's pretty obvious and I could do that.
Ruth Limkin:So like one really simple thing which is free. So there's a lot of research that shows if we walk in nature as opposed to walking in urban environments, our cortisol levels, that stress hormone, goes down by over 12%. So you can reduce your stress levels by walking in nature, which is free to do. So you're improving your social well-being because nature is part of social well-being your physical and your emotional well-being by going for a walk in nature, and if you do that with a friend, like if you say, hey, once a month, why don't we go for a bushwalk at Mount Coot-tha?
Sam Miklos:or something like that.
Ruth Limkin:That's one thing you can do which feels fairly sustainable and you're improving lots of different dimensions of your well-being. Another really important thing which might feel a little bit harder for anyone who's listening, particularly if they're a shift worker is paying attention to our sleep. So there's a really interesting phenomenon that has been coined revenge.
Kate Coomber:Bedtime procrastination have you heard of this one.
Ruth Limkin:I haven't Revenge bedtime procrastination, so it's something that's happening more with women than men, but not just women and it's people who feel like they don't really have control of their day and life is really busy and really full and everyone else gets their time. Then, at the end of the day, when they're really tired, instead of going to bed, they take what they feel like is control of some time and they either binge stuff on Netflix or scroll on their phone this.
Sam Miklos:I like scrolling. I mean I speak to like friends where they'll be like yeah, I just went down a rabbit hole for an hour.
Kate Coomber:Yeah, I'm not just scrolling, but I definitely identify with that.
Sam Miklos:I feel like everyone has taken everything from me today, having two young children, and I've been there for everyone.
Kate Coomber:Yeah, and as tired as I am, I'm not ready to go to sleep because I'm not ready to start again.
Ruth Limkin:Yes, yeah, that's profound.
Sam Miklos:You've got this. This is your experience.
Kate Coomber:Yeah, so I'll set myself usually a timer You'd be like. I realise I don't have a lot of time but I just need something. Yeah, often it just wants to be something. I don't need to use my brain.
Ruth Limkin:So that can actually be a really great thing if it's not something like scrolling on your phone. One of the problems with scrolling with your phone is, whenever you're discovering something new, your brain releases little hits of dopamine, which promotes wakefulness, not sleepfulness, and you've got the blue light I guess yeah, so there's lots of better thing
Ruth Limkin:that could be done so it depends like something that you enjoy so if, for example, you love great, maybe you love mystery novels or something like that, a paper book particularly you pick that up and you're going to like 15 minutes, 20 minutes a night I'm going to read my favourite mystery novel, or I don't know, maybe people like I'm not a knitter but maybe knitting or a jigsaw puzzle or whatever. Maybe it's a gratitude journal you know that's a really powerful way. Or maybe it's journaling your day in there, yeah.
Sam Miklos:Why is gratitude and journaling so powerful?
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, it's amazing. So the scientific research that shows. So there was one study done where every night someone wrote I'm grateful for and they just three things and they didn't just do a dot point of my dog, my husband, my job and the next day my dog, my husband, my job, it was like today I'm grateful for. Today I'm grateful for and by doing that for six weeks their level of depression reduced. So gratitude reframes our whole world for us.
Sam Miklos:Yeah.
Ruth Limkin:And it helps us start to look for the things that are good, which makes a huge difference to our emotional wellbeing and probably also when we think about the people in our life we're grateful for it encourages us to reach out to them, which is that social connection, yeah.
Kate Coomber:Do you see that really effective in the workplace, where you know actually, because at work you typically are solving problems, you're dealing with challenges you're overcoming hurdles. That's why a lot of us do it in our day.
Ruth Limkin:Leadership is problem solving.
Kate Coomber:Is there a really great link for that gratitude at work sometimes where maybe we need to do that more in terms of, you know, I think celebrating wins is really important.
Ruth Limkin:They don't have to be big wins, but celebrating wins is really important. You know great customer feedback or patient feedback, or you know particularly if people are working in difficult. So we work in mental health and addiction. Sometimes we're carrying a lot of people's pain. So you know, one of our values at the Banyans is joy. So we want people to rediscover their joy. But we also want an environment where we know how to steward and cultivate joy really well in our own life. So laughing together you know eating together.
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, it's actually really important creating a life-giving environment.
Kate Coomber:That's interesting. So I think that compassion fatigue is something that's come up with so many of these conversations within the healthcare industry, but also within our. Team here supporting healthcare professionals, but obviously the healthcare professionals caring for others. Team here supporting healthcare professionals, but obviously the healthcare professionals caring for others. Yes, that's a big challenge, it's huge.
Sam Miklos:What about gratitude, then? What about the role of, like meditation or breath work, like that seems to be an emerging trend too.
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, mindfulness breath work, yeah, absolutely, I did a course.
Sam Miklos:recently I realised I couldn't breathe. My stomach was like. I was like what's happening, like why is it? Not, You're calling me like I'm learning to breathe. I'm learning to breathe and I'm like this is the opposite. My tummy's going in the opposite direction, but it feels normal, Like is there a place for that, and I think, if you think about the healthcare work, it's like it's a small little step.
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, absolutely minute micro break doing some really good mindfulness, really good breath work again. It's this free way to hack what's happening in your body or your mind, and there's so much research that shows, you know, the benefit to our emotional and physical well-being. There's so many free things that we can do that don't have to take a lot of time, that don't cost anything, and we can often embed them into our life already, so we're not making it a burden on people, yeah, which is why I think I really encourage people to take control of their own well-being rather than outsource it because I think, um, coming out of COVID too, like as an employer, there was so much like employers need to do this, this, this, we need to offer all the things.
Sam Miklos:So it kind of has felt a little bit outsourced. And I think all the programs and different things we put in over the years. We just do yoga in here and we do meditation, but if people aren't going to turn up, and also like you can have yoga or meditation or something in the office.
Ruth Limkin:But if you're awake till 1am because you're scrolling on your phone for two hours, you're actually self-sabotaging. So you know, I think it is a partnership. As employers, we have a duty not to create an environment that's going to cause damage, but we can't fix things that are happening outside of the workplace necessarily.
Kate Coomber:I think when you touched on earlier, when you were talking about how it's described, I think you said the definition is technically occupational.
Ruth Limkin:Yeah.
Kate Coomber:Work stress or what burnout is. Yeah, we were talking because for a lot of people, work is the part that actually brings them joy. And it's the noise around them, the juggling of the family the extracurriculars.
Sam Miklos:That now happen with children.
Kate Coomber:It seems to be through the roof. It's the pressures outside of work, economic pressures. Yeah the cost of living and all of those other things actually I feel.
Sam Miklos:Sometimes it can feel like it's work Could be more of a contributor sometimes, you know.
Kate Coomber:So it's kind of looking at both of those lenses of how to support people here but yeah, how to give them the tools to support, yeah, external to that.
Ruth Limkin:Ultimately, I believe that me as an individual, I am responsible for my well-being and you know I, if, if I was in an environment that, for whatever reason like sometimes the workplace itself can be great, but you're in a role that absolutely clashes with what your strength set is, it's going to affect you. You know, I'm a disc facilitator and so I remember when I did the training they said if someone's in a role that's actually contradictory to their strengths, in 18 months it will show up in their health. So that's not even anything about the workplace, but it's about a role fit issue.
Ruth Limkin:And so we have to take responsibility for our own wellbeing and make decisions around that.
Kate Coomber:Yeah, because it's a strength versus capability. Right, it's not to say they can't do that job, but it's actually draining their energy Because that's not their strength, exactly.
Sam Miklos:What about the impact of things like chat GPT? I think I saw an article. I think it was in the Times where so many young people are just chat GPT. Here's my symptoms, or they'd prefer the anonymity as well. How do I deal with this? What is that? Where's the place for AI and is it influencing therapy?
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, I saw something recently which showed the top use case for chat GBT in the last 12 months was therapy.
Sam Miklos:Yes. Which terrifies me it is.
Ruth Limkin:Right, so I think chat GBT. So, first of all, big fan of using AI to streamline things to make it more efficient. There's a place to find that I am currently using chat GPT to do my low-carb meal planning and I said I'm happy to do some meal planning.
Kate Coomber:You said that yeah, I was like you've actually changed my life. How have I not thought about this? Because.
Sam Miklos:I'm on chat GPT every day. She came bursting into me. I was like I'm doing lunchbox prep and it's been fantastic.
Kate Coomber:It means when.
Ruth Limkin:I get home from work 10 minutes of assembling the meal because I've done some meal prep on the weekend. So I think it can actually be a real tool for us and I think AI and Chachi Bt and other things can be an adjunct to our life, but they shouldn't be the thing that we rely on.
Ruth Limkin:And you know, particularly for therapy, I wouldn't trust it and it's not going to be as effective, because we do know that social connection matters and you can't have social connection Like I think. I'm really hopeful for AI in the future. You know, I know a lot of our clinicians can now use AI for note-taking, so not necessarily recording the session, but afterwards they can. You know you can use voice transcription.
Kate Coomber:Which would save loads of time compared to being in OT and writing all your notes out, and also the room for error right to actually get the detail correct.
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, exactly, so it can really. I once heard someone say in the last 12 months it's likely that your job won't be replaced by AI, but you'll be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI.
Sam Miklos:Yeah, that is so true.
Ruth Limkin:So I'm very pro, but it's never going to replace people and the power of human connection.
Sam Miklos:Also, too, if you're, you know something as good as what you feed into it, right, yeah? So if you're not giving all of the information or if it's your, I know you said we need to like give it a name our own little chat GPT person but if it's that, it's the bias as well, yes, exactly, yeah, it's a tool. Yeah.
Ruth Limkin:And like any tool, it can create destruction or it can build something, so it's our responsibility to use it really well.
Sam Miklos:Tell us about the Banyans.
Ruth Limkin:The Banyans is amazing. We've just celebrated our ninth birthday recently. Happy birthday, thank you, thank you, I'm already thinking about what we should do for our 10 years. We talk about we help people find fullness of life, and we really do so. We started with residential services. So particularly for people who are professionals, leaders, people who think I've kind of got to the end of my rope, I hit a bit of a crisis, could be a health crisis.
Ruth Limkin:it could be like a family member has looked at them and said you're not doing okay and you need some help, and so, whether it's mental health, whether it's addiction, whether it's burnout, sort of that chronic stress, whether it's eating disorders, it's this wrapar care and it's all one-on-one therapy. So there's no group therapy, and group therapy is a great modality, but for people who won't engage in group, it's no use Exactly or the confidence even to speak in a group, for some people would be quite and you know, if there's PTSD, you can be re-traumatised
Ruth Limkin:by other people in the group. So you know, particularly for medical professionals, they like the fact that they can come and actually just talk to someone privately rather than in a group. So they feel much more confident and you actually get a lot more done if it's just you and your therapist, rather than you and 14 people in a group.
Ruth Limkin:So people come sometimes for, as I think I mentioned earlier, that kind of proactive, like I'm going to do, a one week rest and refresh, or it could be sort of four weeks or so for something that needs a bit more intensive support. We track our clinical outcomes because we are in a beautiful environment so we want you know particularly referring healthcare practitioners to know that we're getting absolutely incredible clinical outcomes. So our clinical director sent me some information the other day and he had to explain it in layperson terms for me. He's like I don't know if you've seen this, it's extraordinary and that's the effect size for the banyans, which is far above what you would see.
Ruth Limkin:The results for antidepressants or anything like that. You know, we know that the DAS21 scores depression, anxiety and stress. You know 96.3% of our clients report and improve in their mental health and it's generally around for each of those measures on the DAS 21, over 60% and for the Leeds Dependency Questionnaire where there's addiction, over 70%. So I love what we do. I often say to our team what we do is really hard. We're supporting people in pain and they're you know know, the most courageous thing sometimes that you can say is I need some help and I can't do it myself. So it's really hard for people and so we just provide this beautiful wraparound care. It's very clinically intense. People see about 14 clinicians every week in the comprehensive program talk us through that so what types of clinicians are they seeing?
Ruth Limkin:Everything, that's a lot.
Sam Miklos:I was going to say what is wraparound care in this context.
Ruth Limkin:So in our comprehensive program they'll see a psychiatrist, they'll see their psychologist four times a week, they'll see the clinical nutritionist, they'll see registered nurses, they will see exercise physiologists, registered art therapists, neurologic music therapists. There's yoga therapists. Some of my staff are going to be devastated because I haven't mentioned them.
Sam Miklos:Oh no, we'll shout out to them.
Ruth Limkin:That's right. It's just. It's incredible just seeing what people do and the way that. So one of the other things that I think is really magical, which I wish we could do in every health care system, is every morning, the entire treating team get together for up to 45 minutes and they talk through our different guests and this is what's happening for this person, so maybe equine therapy, for instance. You know this was what was happening in this person so maybe or equine therapy, for instance.
Ruth Limkin:You know this was what was happening in this session yesterday for me, so when you're doing equine therapy today, it might be useful to look at this, this and this, so this very collaborative care model yeah, that would be very unique, I'm sure yeah, we have people come from all over the world as well as all around Australia, so there's not a lot of options like the Banyan yeah.
Sam Miklos:I was just going to say that this is quite a unique facility.
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, it is, and I'll make sure in a moment we talk about our day program because that's very more accessible for people. But yeah, we have clients. So the second biggest place or guest cohort is actually the US, after Australia and then Singapore. But we've had people come from the UK and Middle East and, because it's quite a rare, model.
Kate Coomber:So how many people can you see at one?
Ruth Limkin:time. So we've got 10 in one residence and five in the other, and then we've got our day program. Let me talk about this, and particularly because the three of us are women, I just want to. Yeah, so I'm a big proponent of listening to your customers, your clients. You know what's the need that's not being met, where there's a gap, that people aren't getting help.
Ruth Limkin:So I remember talking to someone. This was probably five or six years ago now and she was in her early 40s. Her and her husband were both working professionals, two young children, and I was talking to her. She said I'm drinking a couple of bottles of wine a night. She said no one at work would know I've totally got. I'm on top of this. They would have no idea. She said I've tried to get some help. I've been to the public system. It's sort of this group. She said I just can't resonate with what's happening there. I can't connect. And she said so we were talking through and I was talking about our residential option, because that's all we had at the time. She's like there is no way I can get away for four weeks. And she's like where is there for someone like me?
Sam Miklos:Because the residential, is it typically a four-week commitment?
Ruth Limkin:Yeah, so sort of three to four weeks if it's something that needs a bit more intensive, because you can't sort of fix a long-term problem in one week.
Sam Miklos:Yes.
Ruth Limkin:And I had nowhere to refer her to. So we corresponded by email a little bit. I was like you could try this, you could try this, you could put together a bit of a treatment program for yourself. But I saved her email on my desktop and I thought one day I'm going to have a program for people like her. And then, a couple of years later, we opened our day program, which is one day a week for eight weeks. It's still the one-on-one model of care. So you see a psychiatrist, you see a psychologist, clinical nutritionist, exercise physiologist, you do yoga as a group, mindfulness, well-being, education it's all coordinated. So you turn up in one beautiful place. It's in Bowen Hills.
Ruth Limkin:It's really easy to access, but it's just all coordinated for you not running around Brisbane, you know, on a six-month waiting list yeah, exactly, and again, those specialists are talking about you and how they can help you get better. And one day a week is often a lot more accessible for people, so we've run that four days a week now at the moment, so people can choose which day of the week is going to be best for them, even just being able to access a psychiatrist quickly is very rare now at the moment, so people can choose which day of the week is going to be best for them.
Ruth Limkin:Even just being able to access a psychiatrist quickly is very rare. But I'm really passionate about reducing barriers to accessing care, because the quicker that people can engage with care, we often reduce the impact of treatment.
Kate Coomber:It's definitely having an impact on the healthcare system in general, isn't it if?
Ruth Limkin:we can be catching people and if we can be proactive in our health versus the reactive at the last minute when it's too late that's where we were overwhelmed yeah, which is why we do now the one day high performance reset so like just come in get a checkup you know, maybe once a year you want to do this what does that look like?
Sam Miklos:a high performance reset, yeah so it's it's.
Ruth Limkin:So it's a session with a psychologist that often is focused on what are the mental blocks that you need to remove? Or you know how can you elevate your mindset about different things, and then you'll see clinical nutritionists talking about what's. How are you fueling your body? What's your body showing? You know, how could you rethink? What are some easy hacks so that you're improving you know your nutritional well-being.
Ruth Limkin:It's seeing an exercise physiologist doing some movement activation working out well what's actually going to work that's sustainable. It's that mindfulness coaching, it's that well-being education. So it's sort of three quarters of a day, yeah, and it's just to really help people optimize their well-being and hopefully never get to a point of crisis.
Sam Miklos:You know, when you talk about hacks like with all the things we've covered today is there sort of three hacks where you're like if everyone just did these three things, it would just have that 1%.
Ruth Limkin:Yep, yep, I've never actually had that question put to me, but even as you're asking, I was like I know the three, oh, that's so good. So one paying attention to our sleep, making sure we're getting good night's sleep absolutely the foundation of wellbeing, social connection, so meaningful relationships and spending time in nature.
Sam Miklos:Yeah.
Ruth Limkin:They're all free, yeah, yeah.
Sam Miklos:I remember you saying when, um, when I did the day with you and you're like, if you just walk out and put your feet, just put your feet in the grass yeah, and I think one of my things put my feet in the grass and walk the dog around the block. It's just that simple that you don't you kind of underestimate having to be out and do a big hike or be in nature, exactly, and I think we know these things for our children too, and we do them for our children, because we know, you know my daughter, I picked her up from school yesterday and I had to wait for my sons.
Kate Coomber:I was like, right, get out and do some cartwheels, because I know she will be better when we have to do that drive home. But we don't do them for ourselves.
Ruth Limkin:as adults we don't think about it and you know, sometimes I think two women will often put themselves last. Yes, but helping people understand. Sometimes the most responsible thing you can do for all of the people who rely on you is learn how to rest well. Because when we rest well, we can then perform well.
Sam Miklos:How many hours of sleep a night should we be getting?
Ruth Limkin:So all the research says between seven and nine hours. So I have my.
Sam Miklos:I use a sleep app, I set a target of seven and a half hours and it's very encouraging when your phone gives you a little well done, you've hit your sleep goal this many times in the last fortnight, and isn't someone used to say I don't know if it was my mother like an hour before midnight is worth two after, is that?
Ruth Limkin:like an old wives' tale. Was that her way of getting me?
Sam Miklos:into bed earlier.
Ruth Limkin:There is actually a lot of research that shows making sure you get to bed well before midnight the quality is better. But there's a couple of like really quick things you can do to start improving your sleep. So one stop caffeine six hours before bed, because even if you feel like it's not affecting you, the research shows you're losing it objectively one hour of quality sleep a night because the caffeine is interrupting. Also, alcohol, which people often use to wind down, disrupts our REM sleep. So not actually using alcohol as a sleep aid. They're like just two really simple things that people can do. And then, not being on your phone half an hour before bed, maybe picking up a book.
Ruth Limkin:There's some really simple things we can do to start improve, even if not, the duration yeah, the quality.
Sam Miklos:Quality because isn't the alcohol before bed too? Is that with the 3am you get the wake up because you're pancreas, your liver, trying to process, and then your body is just ready to go?
Kate Coomber:Yeah, and is there science in waking up at a similar time every day, on the same token, like if sleep is so valuable is it?
Ruth Limkin:you know, routine helps yeah, our bodies respond well to routine, both good routines and bad routines our bodies get used to, so I think it just makes it easier for us. You start sending signals to your body that this is the time we start winding down yeah this is the plan.
Kate Coomber:Yeah, so, cmr, make a donation to a charity of every guest's choice, and we'd love to talk about a charity of your choice today.
Ruth Limkin:I love Sober in the Country, so it's working with particularly rural and regional Australians and encouraging people that alcohol doesn't have to be a part of your life. And they're a small, amazing Australian charity that are punching way above their weight. Our female founder just loved them, so I'd love a donation to them. That's fantastic. I love hearing about charities like that.
Sam Miklos:We've never heard about them, and just to shine a light on that charity's potential Sober in the country. I love that. Thank you, ruth.
Kate Coomber:Oh pleasure.
Sam Miklos:There's so many things we could get to you, and just more, more, more, more.
Ruth Limkin:I know we could talk for hours. I know we could talk for hours. I know we say that all the time.
Sam Miklos:But I know with you, we were so excited to talk to you and I think there's some really good, just simple strategies that even for us to be able to give back to our healthcare community or just like raise awareness, even just thinking about those six dimensions in itself, Like you know, sometimes we think about one or two, but not all six, Hearing other people having the same challenges. I think is useful. It's an incredible conversation. We're so grateful, thank you.
Ruth Limkin:Thanks for facilitating it.
Kate Coomber:We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which we meet who, for centuries, have shared ancient methods of healing and cared for their communities. We pay our respects to elders, past and present.
