37. Who Decides If Care Is Safe? With First Nations Dr Sarah Jane Springer

What if the only real measure of cultural safety was the voice of the person receiving care?

In this episode of It Takes Heart, Sam and Kate sit down with Dr Sarah Jane Springer - proud First Nations woman, award-winning rural generalist, and passionate advocate for community-led healthcare. Drawing on her lived experience and career across rural and remote Australia, Sarah Jane shares why true cultural safety can’t be written into policy alone - it must be shaped, guided, and defined by the communities receiving care.

Together, they explore identity, leadership, and the responsibility of building systems that genuinely centre First Nations voices. This episode is for anyone working in healthcare, leadership, or reform who believes better outcomes begin with listening and who feels called to help create a safer, stronger, more community-led future for healthcare.

Sarah Jane's organisation of choice is The Australian Indigenous Doctors' Association. AIDA’s purpose is to grow ethical and professional Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander doctors who will lead and drive equitable and just health outcomes for all our peoples.

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It Takes Heart is hosted by cmr’s Samantha Miklos and Kate Coomber and recorded at cmr’s head office in Brisbane.

We Care; Music by Waveney Yasso

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Transcript

Introduction

Kate Coomber 0:00

Today, we're sitting down with award-winning rural generalist First Nations doctor, Dr. Sarah Jane Springer.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 0:05

And at the end of the day, we're trying to develop a culturally safe system, right? And cultural safety, by definition, can only be defined by the people and which are receiving the care.

Kate Coomber 0:17

Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. But if you'd like to watch the interview in full, then pop over to Spotify or YouTube.

Samantha Miklos 0:29

So we're grateful today to be joined by Dr. Sarah Jane Springer, proud First Nations woman who has recently been recognised by the Australian College of Rural and Remote Medicine for her outstanding contribution to First Nations healthcare. Welcome Sarah Jane to It Takes Heart

Connection To Country And Early Life

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 0:44

Yaama, Maarubaa so thank you for inviting me to come and have a yarn with you guys today. I'd like to give an acknowledgement to the traditional owners of the lands that we're on today, so the Jagera and Turrbal people, and give a big up acknowledgement as well to my Rajri um elders that um other knowledge holders and passers on of information and culture and presence and um understanding of the ways in which we um know being do as First Nations people.

Samantha Miklos 1:12

Thank you.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 1:13

Thank you.

Samantha Miklos 1:14

So let's start with your connection to country. Yeah. Where did where did you grow up?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 1:18

Yep. Um so I grew up in Mudgee, which is a very bougie little spot if you is now. It is very bougie now. Was it like that when you grew up there? No, not at all. Yeah. So it is kind of really um warming to see that the place is quite touristy and often comes up on the list of most um popular places, small country towns to go. But Mudgee's located in central west New South Wales. So nice little hub between so it's an hour and a half to Dubbo, two hours to Orange, an hour and a half to Bathurst, so it's in the nice little sort of nestled in a beautiful wine region, essentially, and it's really foody, um, and it has amazing cultural sites. So that's the main reason why, you know, I connect to place and home and want to get back often is just to celebrate and to, you know, get that energy back from country and that keeps inspiring me to move forward and do what I do.

Kate Coomber 2:15

And so talk to us about growing up there. What was it like at that time? How did it shape who you are today?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 2:22

Yeah, great question. I think so, I mean I've answered this sort of question a lot. So I've given it a lot of thought and unpacked it from lots of different angles in the past. But thinking about so my parents are now past, but thinking about my journey as a child and and what influenced or shaped my interest in sort of humanities, I guess, in helping people and caring for people probably comes directly from both my parents. So uh my father more practically, so he was a police officer when I was first young. So that sense of you know um community spirit and wanting to help and service, yeah, service sort of sort of thing. Um but it to be a good, healthy, happy family man and someone that was quite passionate about staying on country himself, he got out of the police force around the time I was about two, three, because he was meant to go down to Sydney and it just didn't really fit with where we're at. So for him to fulfil his ongoing service sort of passions for community, he joined the um volunteer rescue squad. So my memories as a child was often, you know, the CB radio squawking in the background and and that anticipation and and adrenaline that was always in the house in terms of like when they have to go out and help with car accidents or fires or you know, the latest latest issue that was happening in town. So um I think just watching him do that and be of importance to community and um really helpful, I think that they're the my first memories of you know what it was to serve. Um and then in terms of my mum, which I haven't actually given much um sort of recognition to in terms of her influence on me and my medical career, is she was quite unwell actually when I was about 10. And I think um, and when I say unwell, she had renal cell carcinoma. So as a 10-year-old, you can imagine when you being told that your mum's got cancer and that she has to have her whole kidney removed, it's like a really intense situation, makes you grow up really quickly and take on all that accountability and responsibility. And um did you have siblings in the home and uh well it you had a very interesting sibling arrangement. So I'm one of eight, but it's a blended family. Yes. Um I'm the youngest of that crew, yes, and my oldest niece and nephew lived with us, so they were like my my siblings then. Yeah, so one was the same age as me and the other was two years younger. So my responsibility was to to care for them and look after them, and um so at 10 it was yeah, it was a lot to take on. I mean, she she got through that quite well, yeah. Um, but it was that early influence, I guess, of um exposure to to the healthcare setting and what that looks like from a rural and regional perspective as well. And I think on layering on top of that too, um I myself I'd had appendicitis when I was about eight. And um I remember it was the same couple, so husband and wife team that actually delivered me was the same, or one of them, I think it was the husband, diagnosed me with appendicitis, and they um operated, their clinic was out of their house, and it was this grand, beautiful home on this beautiful gardens and things. I'll just never forget that type of thing. And just being, you know, picked up um or assessed after hours in in their home, and then an ambulance picking us up from the clinic, not necessarily the hospital, and then being transported to Dubbo, which is an hour and a half later, like was quite scary. Yes. Um and I think that's that is a an influence that has laid down that whole um passion for you know access to care. And I know that sounds crazy, you know, being an eight-year-old, right? But I do think that that helps to lay down those memories. Yeah. And I remember when I got to Dubbo, mum and dad couldn't stay with me at that particular point because they had to go back home and and work and what have you. So there was that isolation as well, and that you know, the fear of not having your parents there with you when you've just had an operation or about to have an operation. And there was this young um two, two and a half year old um that had gotten hit by a car from another nearby town that had broken both her legs and was in traction or whatever. So I used to go down and feed feed the baby like a bottle and spend time with her because her parents weren't there either. So it was just, I guess my point is there, um, they were my early influences about how important it is that rural and remote people get just as good access to health care as possible and that um, you know, we need more kind of robust wraparound care, not just the medical care itself, but the social sensors.

Kate Coomber 7:04

It's it's everything, isn't it?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 7:06

Yeah. So at that point, you know, there was not no social workers for kids that came past or Aboriginal liaison officers in hospitals that, you know, could say, could just come and check in on you or connect back with your parents or something. Like, you know, nurses and doctors are busy. But I I see nowadays, hopefully, there's there's more sense of that, of that wraparound care and just being able to to look after people a bit more holistically.

Equity Versus Equality In Practice

Kate Coomber 7:31

So when those sort of circumstances happen now, as an example, what would you foresee happening if that was today? Yeah, well in the same town, in the same, you know.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 7:41

Yeah, I mean whether it does happen or not. But my gold standard would be that there would be pediatric social workers that you'd be able to link in with that communicate back to, say, you know, the social worker team in Mudgee, and that there's that more understanding of, you know, who's going where and that awareness of like who's vulnerable, who might need extra assistance, what does that look like for each individual family, and really I guess that's it, individualising care based on their needs. And um, I guess that's the whole sense, isn't it, of of the difference between equity and equality and making sure that we're hitting that equity space and getting to know our patients really well. But having a well-serviced workforce that's operating from a healthy, happy place themselves is what is required to be able to, you know, execute that in a way that um that hits the mark. So when we're still, you know, trying to mop up the workforce shortage and everyone's under the pump and a bit stressed and you know, not operating to their full potential as an individual, then it's very difficult to give from an empty cup, I think. So, you know, our rural and remote workforce are often operating from that space. So it makes it difficult to really operationalise what is gold stand and what should happen and what makes sense. Yeah, and what makes it a a difference in terms of the outcome for a patient and and what actually happens.

Pathways Into Medicine And Belonging

Kate Coomber 9:05

Yeah, and I think we'll get to that a little bit later. But if you think about so they were your early influences. What about actually getting into medicine as you became older? How easy was that? What was your journey into medicine? Was it always medicine? Yeah, was there other things first?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 9:21

So no is the answer. Did not even in my wildest dreams think that I was had the smarts or the intelligence or it just wasn't there. I knew that I wanted to do something in service, something community service driven. Which is, you know, I was thinking about things like which doesn't straight away think about service, but journalism was up there in terms of nowadays, you know, the podcasts and the investigative journalism, like I really if that was around when I was, you know, yes, going through that decision phase of what to do, I would have jumped all over that. Um because I love, I love listening to, you know, Hadley Thomas and his, you know, unpacking of those different cage cases like teacher's pet and nightmare and oh my god.

Kate Coomber 10:06

So you just deeply curious as a person.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 10:08

Yeah, yeah, I yeah. So I love all of that. So journalism was up there, teaching was another one. I thought that, you know, I could potentially be a good teacher. I'm quite charismatic and enjoy um unpacking concepts and and you know, communicating those. But in saying that, when in year 11 and 12 I did uh HPE, I'm sure you know which is not necessarily sport related, but it's quite high level. Um but I had a fantastic teacher, and I usually give him big shout-out as well. So good old Rob Dog O'Connor, um back there in Mudgee, still lives at home. Um he was just a phenomenal teacher, and I think again, he probably influenced me to think about teaching, but at the end of the day I did really, really well in this HPE, and it got me thinking about the human body and wanted that sort of shaped me into thinking about health-related fields. So I ended up putting things down like physio thinking in my head as well. There's no way I'll even get the marks for that.

Samantha Miklos 11:08

It's funny that you say that because I remember yeah, going through and it was like if you didn't have the smarts, I felt like you had to be the smartest physio medicine, all of those things. Because I was the same, I was very interested, but I was like, I think I'm smart enough.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 11:21

Yeah. Yeah. And you just have this perception, right, that it's just going to be so hard. Um, yeah, and that only the smartest kids with the most, you know, immaculate backgrounds and all the support in the world. The ducks of the school have gone in. Would get through. So that definitely wasn't.

Samantha Miklos 11:40

What else?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 11:40

Yeah, so physio, OT, dietetics. I had all of those kind of like health-related things. Yeah, yeah. And thinking to myself, oh well, I'll I'll try one and if I don't get through, then I'll, you know, we'll shift around a little bit. But I went on a careers market day in Dubbo, so um our school organised a bus. We all went over there, and I saw um these two like aunties, you know, beautiful black faces in in the the workshop area, or you know, um, looking after their little stall. And I just went up for a yarn really, and they were under the umbrella of um Newcastle uni. So I was just that would have been the spot that I the most closest realistic place for me to go that wasn't too far from home. So I kind of just entered the conversation curious about what they had to offer. And we got chatting and then they're like, Have you ever thought about medicine? And I went, um, no. And then they talked to me about that and just made it so believable that it was possible. And that talked about this Aboriginal entry program, which was not a new phenomenon at that stage. I think um, don't quote me, but it was the 80s that was the first uh Aboriginal entry program that carpent through um Newcastle Uni. Ordinarily I'd have that number in my mind, but I don't today. Um but anyhow, that they gave me a brochure and just sort of said, keep in contact, see how you go, but you might want to think about it quickly because the the applications are closing. Yeah, and they they had a different process. You didn't have to necessarily wait for your TR or your UAI or whatever they call it these days, um ATAR. Yes. Um, but it was a interview process which was really quite rigorous in terms of and I and I love this, they're they've kind of relaxed the rules a little bit of more recent times, but they came out and do did a community interview m first and foremost. So figuring out, you know, where do you sit in your community? Are you known? Who who's your mob? Like, like it w it was really like a cultural legitimization of like, you know, where you're from, how would we need to support you really well to be able to succeed in that type of thing, or do you have the that sort of social and emotional intelligence perhaps? I I I assume that that's what they're trying to check out.

Kate Coomber 13:54

Did you have other peers who were also interested in this? Like did you have anyone that you were doing this with? No. No. No.

Choosing Rural Generalism

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 14:00

So it was just this journey. I was also 16, 16, 17 at the time. So I often kind of make a joke, was young enough and to be so silly in some ways, or uh silly's probably not the right word, but but that knows not a possibility. Yeah, you know? So exactly right. Yeah, just like that. Oh well, naive enough to go, like what is it? Yeah. Why not? Yeah, I had no understanding of what it was really going to be like. So throw yourself in the deep end. So yeah, so I applied, we had the community interview, and then you were invited if you were successful from there, you were invited to Newcastle and you sat in front of a panel of community members there too, but also academics and things that kind of did another extensive interview for you. You had to sit the UMAT test, which I didn't even get my results back, so I have no idea because that was the biggest topic of discussion when everyone finally did get into medicine, was like, Oh, where'd you get a new UMAT? And I could honestly say, look, I have no idea. I don't know. I didn't get it. Were you doing science type subjects at the time too, or just I did biology, yeah. Um, but I didn't do chemistry and I didn't I wasn't a really smart mathematician, that sort of thing. You did go into UMAT, like all of those things, math starts. Yeah. Maybe I was just really highly socially emotionally intelligent or something. I don't know. But yeah, did that and um obviously I've already I I got in and my parents were so wonderfully supportive in such that they were like, see how you go. There was no pressure. It was like, oh well, you know, but that would have been now as a parent with uh my oldest bonus daughter's 18 and about to start chemical engineering, and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, I'm not even quite sure this is a good idea. But you know, I've got myself as an example, because people would have been saying exactly the same thing about me, she's not gonna get through. They were. I knew this. Even our local paper, for example, Mudgee Guardian, would not um they they had other people that got into medicine, but they wouldn't do a story on me because I think that the the ethos was that, oh, you know, she's got in through a special entry program and she's never gonna make it.

Kate Coomber 16:11

Wow.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 16:11

So there was a little bit of that, a little bit of community jealousy. Does that um drive the floor? Yes, I was gonna say the same thing. But it wouldn't for everyone, right?

Kate Coomber 16:20

Like that's really dangerous because not everybody would have the fight.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 16:25

Yes, and it it is dangerous, and we can we'll probably unpack that further in the interview, but it's probably the best and worst thing to ever say to me. If you tell me that I can't do something, I will show you that I will do it. Yeah. And if that even meant before, you know, we talked about did you want to be an astronaut? Like if someone said you can't do that, and I really had the drive for it, I would do it. Yeah. But that comes at a cost as well, which we'll probably unpack. But yeah, that that was my journey. So I started at 17. I got some funny things though, the very first day as well. Not only was it what did you get in your UMat, the other question was, Oh, so what school did you go to?

Speaker 1 17:01

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 17:01

And I was like, Oh, Maji High. And people are like, Okay, was that a co-ed school? And I was like, What's what's co-ed? Yes. I literally hand on heart, had no idea that what a co-ed school was, like that there was other options. That was my only option. Yeah.

Samantha Miklos 17:21

You know, it it was just a real big eye opening. I bet it was. And so fast forward to this, you know, looking back, we've had 20 years in healthcare.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 17:29

Yep.

Samantha Miklos 17:30

Once you graduated, did you always want to go back and work in in remote medicine? Yeah. Where have you been? What have you done?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 17:37

Yeah, yeah. So I think again, and the reason I bring this up about the couple who cared for me when I had my appendix and, you know, birth and blah blah blah. I mean, obviously I didn't remember that, but those guys were my inspirations of like what what is a doctor? Like again, I had no other idea of what a a medical person was. Like I didn't know there was things at such as dermatologists or cardiothoracic surgeons or that just wasn't in my world. Yes. Absolutely. And I I've said that.

Kate Coomber 18:10

Especially in remote alert conditions, too. Yeah, we talked about that with another guest actually, because I grew up in a smaller town and my GP, I just thought that's what being a doctor was because they knew everything.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 18:19

Yeah.

Kate Coomber 18:19

Because there was no referral to anyone else.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 18:21

Yep. And they saw you at the hospital, they saw you in the clinic, they did the operations, and you know, there still is a concept of that around, which is a rural journalist, which is obviously the path that I took, because there was again, there was nothing else in my mind, no other pathways laid down in in my psyche or whatever that I was going to be anything else. So um so I did did do the pathway of rural journalism. Um so the back end of just just running you through the the steps really quickly. So the back end of my degree, I actually was one of the pilot students for the first University Department of Rural Health. So I did two and a half years in Tamworth because again, Tamworth felt more like home to me. It was more authentic, very country, rather than Newcastle.

Speaker 1 19:07

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 19:08

Um, I mean I love Newcastle, but I just it just wasn't my vibe. Yeah. So went up there uh with a small bunch of other medical students, which was a great thing for me to do as well because I couldn't hide, you know. I was so timid and so shy at uni because I was just imposter syndrome. I was just gonna say, was it imposter syndrome? Oh, it was it was crippling, really, really crippling. Um and probably something that I haven't really dealt with until more recently. And even then I struggle, but we'll talk about that.

Kate Coomber 19:37

Yeah. And so there was no one around you? You didn't feel no represented in other areas and similar students on similar pathways?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 19:45

Look, yes and no. Um Newcastle Uni still to this day has produced the most Aboriginal Torres Islander doctors, and there is a reason for that. There is a really um awesome support unit, and that's been around since I was there, and basically everyone kind of helps each other and it becomes like your family, right? So you share resources and talk about things, and I think that was instrumental to to my success getting through the degree is is having those um peers around you. So I did have that, but I also I know this sounds strange, but I also don't necessarily connect and identify myself as a doctor necessarily. Um probably because of my upbringing and I didn't really hang around with other medical students. Um I I was longing for community connection.

Kate Coomber 20:37

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 20:38

So for me that was getting involved in, you know, the indigenous netball, um, the football. Football's always a good, you know, um connector of community and um, you know, I guess everything that falls out of those sporting events, the social events that come with it. So I was very connected to the community in Newcastle and then again in in um Tamworth as well, because that's what I had known, you know, as my success factors, I guess, to to get me through. But I didn't know that instinct. Um I've probably had an instinct for that at the time, but now I look back and I I know that they were the the positive factors and the influences that got me through. So I think it's really important. And what I try and say to my GP registrars or medical students is to, you know, no matter what nationality they are, is to to find your tribe and to have those people around you to support you in a social way. Um and support you in all different ways, but it keeps that balance which is so important when you you are undertaking a degree that is so intense in some ways, or is perceived to be intense.

Kate Coomber 21:43

Um, I imagine very competitive as well in certain worlds of it as well. And I think that coming together to support one another, unfortunately, isn't always healthy. Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 21:53

The case.

Kate Coomber 21:53

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 21:54

Yes. And you're so right. Um yeah, the competition was crazy. But I think another Really good. It sounds like I'm doing a promotion for Newcastle Unified. Did they do anything like that? Yeah.

Kate Coomber 22:05

No, maybe they should put me on the button. For people who might be thinking, where could I go? Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 22:11

Yeah. Because back when I was doing, I'm not quite sure what is happening at the current moment.

Speaker 1 22:15

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 22:16

Um, but there was no such thing as grades. It was like a pass-fail sort of arrangement, which was really quite helpful for someone like myself who would have got swept up in all that competition and probably did to a certain degree, to be fair.

Speaker 1 22:30

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 22:31

But I think just knowing at the end of the day that when you were, you know, waiting for that moment when your results are about to come out, that it was just pass or fail. Yeah. Like, am I moving on to next year or am I not? Like, what what's that all about? So I thought that was a positive factor also.

Samantha Miklos 22:47

And where's your rural generalist work taken you? Like you talked about Tamworth, but have you moved around the country? Have you always stayed in key locations?

Motherhood And Rethinking Career

Building Cultural Governance In Health

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 22:55

Yeah, so so Tamworth finished off my degree. I then wanted to have a bit of a um a metropolitan experience, wanted to throw myself into the deep end, so to speak. So I went to Sydney for 18 months and did some work at RPA in Sydney. And that was amazing, loved it. Huge group of um interns and things, and we all got along quite well. And you know, I really enjoyed living in Newtown and I thought that was awesome. Um but I also didn't complete my whole second year as a JMO there because I, you know, I'd had enough, had my taste, got the whole vibe of what a tertiary hospital, busy tertiary hospital is like wasn't my thing. So um I then applied early for GP training, got in and I moved up to the north coast of New South Wales. So did all my GP training, um, advanced procedural skills at Tweetheads. Yeah. Um, which nowadays isn't probably viewed as that rural. Back then back then it would have been. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did epstetrics, did emergency, did my GP training out at um Mwallumba. So yeah, and it was just beautiful. Yeah. Just I I really enjoyed the community and just the doctors out there as well were just, you know, really great, great supportive environment. But um kind of come to the end of that, and then I saw a locum opportunity through, I don't even know, you know, through my networks for uh to be a GP registrar or or to be they were looking for GPs, but they took me as a GP registrar, I was in my final stage over in Port Headland in Western Australia. So um my family were living there. Uh so my brother had moved there with his wife and three children many, many years ago. He's in BHP um like train driving and health and safety as well. Surprise, surprise. Um so he was there, and then my dad was also working there as well. So I was like, well, you know, I'll just go for a little bit of a look-see and see what. You hadn't been to WA? Oh, sorry, yes. I had been there to visit them as a medical student in second year, uh, and there was that pull straight away of like this is the kind of place that I want to work in. It was so underserviced, and the I had such a great exposure as a medical student. I was with the Aboriginal Medical Service, the hospital, RFDS, it was incredible. And not many medical students get that beautiful exposure. Like, you know, you might go all that way and you sit in the the hospital for a little while, or it's very difficult now with all the MOUs between unis and services, and you know, you've got to have someone really motivated to make it all happen.

Speaker 1 25:33

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 25:34

Um, but I'm so glad that back then it wasn't such a thing, and I could go out and just have all that exposure. But it was mind-blowing even as I was 18 then and I was just like, wow, this is third world medicine. You know, like yes, I can do a whole heap of stuff, but why should I be excited about that? Yeah. You know, it's it was yeah, really it made a huge impression. So the point of why I've port Headland was yes, I had family connection there, but was just really influenced by that um that eight-week placement in second year. So I went over there for a month, extended it to two. By that stage I'd had a conversation with um, so this was at the Average Medical Service, Werrika Meyer, um, had a conversation with one of the hospital doctors who was trying to poach me, and they success succeeded, but she was just like, oh, you know, like she was young, enthusiastic, uh uh GP rural generalist as well, GP anaesthetist, and um, you know, put their WA contract on the table, which I nearly died. I was like, uh hang on what? And then I went back um to finish off my obstetric stuff just to tidy up my um logbook and that type of thing. And I was talking to my boss about it. I had a great relationship with um with my boss who was a big supporter of GP obstetricians as well. Um, and I was like, oh, I've just been offered this, and he was like, mate, that's like a hundred thousand dollars more than what I get paid, and I'm the you know, the area of the area ONG consultant. Yeah. Because you know, New South Wales Health. And so that again it was that whole, oh my god, like, is this for real? You know, and then I had my um GP supervisors also saying to me, Um, are you are you sure? Are you are you ready for this? Like, so I was quite fearful actually going there, but it was the best decision I ever made. I I signed up for a year thinking, well, you know, I want to see the two seasons out because of wet season, dry season, see if I can cope.

Speaker 1 27:32

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 27:32

Ten years later I was still there.

Speaker 1 27:34

That's crazy. Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 27:35

The only reason that I moved back, new relationship, both my parents passed, unfortunately, and just going back between Port Headland and Mudgie was just so expensive. Because I would I changed my roster to two weeks on, two weeks off. Um, because that was another thing. Like Port Headland was so supportive of their workforce.

Kate Coomber 27:54

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 27:55

Um, not just in my situation, but you know, everybody's unique situation. We had a really good team, and they're still there's a lot of the crew's still there actually, so I'd love to go back. But anyway, I now have bonus children and a two-year-old, two and a half-year-old, tooth.

Samantha Miklos 28:10

Where's home now for you then?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 28:12

Yeah, so I live in Mackay now. Yeah. Um, which is my husband's um, you know, he grew up there, so he's a Murray lad from Mackay. And so the reason that we moved there is for my son, or our son, yeah. We wanted him to have, you know, beautiful cultural connections growing up and to be we're really blessed to have Shannon's nen, so Cleese's my son's name's Cleese. Cleese's um great-grandmother in in our lives and the aunties as well. So yeah, it's just that really nice family sort of exposure.

Samantha Miklos 28:46

Yeah. What did um your Akram award that you received last year, what did that mean to you?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 28:53

Yeah, look, that was um I don't I'm not really quite sure who nominated me. I was gonna say, and can I ask how it comes about? Yeah. Yeah, so it's you nominated. Yeah. Um and that will I mean look, it it's always very nice to hear.

Kate Coomber 29:07

Whoever that was, get in touch.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 29:11

Um it it's it's humbling, right? But at the end of the day, you know what? I um I if the community is happy with what I'm doing, then that's my award. Um so I go to work for community. I don't go to work to chase awards or accolades or some would say that I go to chase letters because I do have and that's the imposter syndrome, you see. I'm a letter chaser, but I'm not an award chaser per se. But I I enjoy doing really innovative, community-driven work. And I think that that's probably the driver for perhaps where the notif um notification. Gee, nomination came from. Yeah, so I've been able to do some really interesting projects more recently. So um just to so bounce off. So rural journalism moved to the East Coast, had a baby, obviously your life changes, yeah. You you're starting to think about motherhood and how to be the best mum, and being a rural journalist and being on call all the time is actually really, really difficult to balance. So I started looking for project work um from home and wanting to use my other areas of expertise and that being, you know, cultural safety. And um, I'm really interested and fascinated by governance and um making our workplaces a a great space to go to work, right? It they should be healthy, happy, safe. We should be giving from a full cup like a reference before. Um so my first project was I was the um project lead for a better culture, which is I'm not sure if you guys were aware of that, but it it was a um project that was um headed up by the the Commonwealth and then auspiced through Rachmar College, so the Medical Administration College. And I applied for that. I think I was the only applicant, but anyway. Yeah. So they didn't have many choices, but here I am.

Kate Coomber 31:09

Um why do you think you know you joke about that, but that's a really difficult space to work in and to have impact in and to actually influence change. It is. Because there's so much that goes into that. 100%. So why why did you want that job that maybe others didn't?

Valuing Knowledge And New Leaders

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 31:26

Yeah, great call, because there was parts of during that job that I really thought I'd made the wrong decision. Um because what it highlighted to me actually is that our systems continually are uh created not for Average and Torres Islander people. And when we're talking about um, you know, the health and well-being of uh Average and Torres Islander trainees, which was my role to to you know look at the research and look at the medical training survey year on year that demonstrates that you know our medical trainees overall are still experiencing unacceptable rates of bullying, harassment, discrimination, and and sexual harassment. Um but more so in our First Nations colleagues. Like we're we're a finite number of people as it is, right? Um we have a very important impact in our health health system, but the system doesn't support us. It continues to marginalise the very people that are needed to try and make a difference. So going back to your question, uh look, I did apply for the role thinking it was really exciting, that there's great opportunity here, there's a real need that's been identified. There's, you know, the Department of Health and Aging have obviously put it on their radar as something important to address, so you know, that's a positive. But again, the the way in which the structure of that whole project was developed well before there was any First Nations input. So there were still elements of that project that that screamed of tokenism, having the one Aboriginal Torres Right Islander person making the comments and things which I was trying to push against all the time, saying this is not true cultural governance. This is not how we operate in our spaces. You know, we're a collective voice. I am, you know, a rajariana, which is a ray woman. I can only really speak from my Radjari background. I can't talk for people from Torres Strait, I can't talk for the Murrays of North Queensland, I can't talk for the people in WA. So my passion now is really trying to influence, and I have got a space which is great, but influence, you know, organisations, the Commonwealth, the systems essentially, to be able to embed cultural governance from the outset when we're talking about developing systems. Because, like the age-old thing, you know, I used to use this quote from Uncle Louis Peach, actually, which I I'm not sure it's actually his. But, you know, if you're not at the table, then you're on the menu was often the quote, right? But I actually want to go further than that. I think that if we're not designing the table and we're not deciding who's at the table, then the systems are never going to change. So what what I'm trying to influence in in my my way that I I can is to say that, you know, all these words that are used in these high-level documents and policy documents about power shifting and you know, First Nations voices being privileged, and that, you know, that we need to be involved early in in the way in which you know we are undertaking governance, they need to be operationalized. Like at the current moment it's all just fluff. Yeah. They're just words on a page. On a page, yeah. You know, you've got your wraps, you've got your closing the gap policy documents, you've got, you know, words like collaboration and consultation and co-design. And but when I see this from a First Nations person's perspective, that doesn't happen. Like we need to be there guiding what that looks like. And at the end of the day, we're trying to develop a culturally safe system, right? And cultural safety, by definition, can only be defined by the people and which are receiving the care. So unless we are asking our communities, our patients, and the receivers of those care, of that care, sorry, was that safe for you? Were you listened to? Did you feel respected? Do you feel like you had the opportunity to be able to, you know, challenge and ask and um you know and and request more knowledge or and and have the opportunity to go away and discuss it with your your family members. And until that happens, we do not have a culturally safe system. So I don't care. People can run around and say all they like, because I hear it often, oh, you know, we're culturally safe. You're not. You're not unless the community in which you're providing the care to is saying that you are. And the problem is no one's doing that work.

Kate Coomber 35:51

And nobody wants to ask. Well, I think they're scared. I think they're scared. You know, it's like you ask for feedback, then people have to, what do you do with that feedback?

Burnout, Boundaries, And Balance

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 36:01

So is it a is it a resources, is it a people don't know how to do it. And this is a piece in which that I've I'm passionate about is about cultural governance. Because, you know, um Archo settings, so the Aboriginal community controlled health organizations, come with their own beautiful, already designed um cultural governance boards. So those services are designed and influenced by the community board. Yep. So what we need to do as a system is develop essentially like boards or or committees or um, you know, groups of of Average Ontario Islander people of of that are representative of whatever that is that you the system that you're trying to put together. And have the authority, not just you know, the ticker box tokenistic kind of, oh, we've consulted. Um, but help them really help whatever organization or system that is, do that work. Because it it isn't actually that difficult if you break it down. It's about legitimately having those connections with community to be able to grab the voices that you need to bring back the information. But the trouble is, I st I still believe, this is my opinion, of course, but there's fear in that inter intersection. People don't know how to ask, who to ask, why to ask. And I still think actually that people are quite confused about, you know, even the whole trajectory between cultural awareness through to cultural safety and what are all those things mean. And instead of just sitting back and asking those questions and really listening, I think that's what people miss it miss a lot. Um we're just getting nowhere.

Kate Coomber 37:44

So And I guess if you're no. I was just gonna say you worked in hospital settings or state government settings and then have you worked in, you know, Aboriginal controlled community settings and different healthcare, are you seeing a difference then between uh the community being really involved in some of those remote areas and the you know the AMS or the versus the state government?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 38:09

Yeah, definitely. So I think when when um Archo settings, so the U community controlled organizations are actually truly given the opportunity and power to be able to um to lead what with what their community needs are, there are actually really positive outcomes. And this is true, right? Like Archos have got beautiful wraparound services, they they're often not just doctor-led. Well, that it's not doctor-led, it's community-led, first of all. They don't just have doctors in their settings, they've often got, you know, if they can, depends on workforce, I guess. But you know, other allied health professionals, you've got your Aboriginal health workers, which are in they are so pinnacle to the success of our organizations and the connection to community and the representation in which they bring. Like when I go to work in the archer setting that I now work in, so Mackay, Archers, it's it's none of the none of the programs are for me to design. I'm there to facilitate what community wants. And it is so refreshing to be able to go to work and do that work, knowing that you have the backing of your community to go, Sarah Jane, like it's like this. We, you know, we haven't had shared ant inadequate care services for however long, and our women are just not getting care. Can you do something about that? Absolutely. Yeah, let me add it.

Kate Coomber 39:32

So um as opposed to someone in another state saying that you should add some services here because you should.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 39:39

Yeah. Well you you should you should use the framework of birthing on country and every, you know, um arch o service. It d that that doesn't even work.

Speaker 1 39:48

Yeah.

Fashion, Identity, And Creative Energy

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 39:49

You can't use a framework and then just cookie-cut it everywhere. It needs to still be operationalized from a community-grounded perspective, which sometimes that might not mean, you know, turning it on its head completely, but it's still making sure that the uniqueness of it meets community need and the minutiae there is is is about what that community wants. But yeah, I've I've really enjoyed stepping into positions finally where I feel like not only my clinical experience, but also my like, you know, cultural governance and subject matter expertise in that regard have collided, and then I've s I'm feeling as though that, you know, whether I'm listened to or not is another thing. But at least I'm able to advocate in this way. And and I have had lots of really intense conversations of recent times as well with high-level bodies about, well, no, you know, if you can't support my, you know, a cultural governance committee that I'm trying to put together financially in the way in which they should be done, then I'm not doing the work. Because you need to value our knowledge. We come with, you know, I'm 43 years old, 44 this year, oh my god.

Kate Coomber 40:58

Anyway. In good company. Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 41:02

Yeah, but you know, like this is the time that you want to step up and you want to bring all those elements. You know, I've got 44 years of being an Aboriginal person up my belt, like, as well as 22 years of being, you know.

Kate Coomber 41:17

In this setting.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 41:18

Yeah, yeah. So um, so it's time. It's time that, you know, the new younger leaders of our medical world come to the fore as well. So, you know, I've I've talking about mentors and things way back in the earlier questions, I've always really admired um people like Nairy Brown, Professor Nairy Brown, and um, well, there's a whole there's a whole raft of them. But yeah, Uncle Louis Peachy and um Uncle Mark Wenatong and those type of people are just they've been the forefront runners of this whole, you know, movement of First Nations um medical students and doctors and have really been there doing the hard yards, even though some days I feel like I'm still doing the hard yards, but obviously it's in a different way.

Samantha Miklos 42:03

You've talked to a few times about um creating a happy healthcare and not pouring from an empty cup. Are there any um, you know, easy wins that you think are right in front of us that we could be grabbing on now that could help our healthcare professionals to not be pouring from an empty cup?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 42:21

Yeah. I think there's not enough education throughout, well, certainly in my days, about that whole sense of self-wellness or, you know, where are you really sitting in terms of your level of burnout or not? Like a lot of a lot of our medical profession are burnt out. They're And why do you think that is? Oh, d uh all the reasons that we've talked about, you know, we're working with a system that hasn't not only not been, you know, designed for First Nations people, but hasn't been designed certainly for other nationalities or and if we look at the cohort of the population of um doctors that we have, like everyone's sort of working in this system that's not for them or represents them. And yeah, I you know, I understand it's a system for a reason and obviously has to have some kind of parameters, right? But I think it comes down to individually just really checking in and working out like where you're at. I've certainly gone through some long periods of burnout and now in retrospect like you know, there's times when I shouldn't have been working. And I think I was talking to some it was not a medical person the other day, but they were talking about having Duna days and that type of thing and just, you know, some days in the calendar in which, you know, yes, it's I guess it's a sick day, yeah, but that you don't have to have an explanation for it. You don't have to have that stress, it's just like, you know what, I can't do work today.

Speaker 1 43:48

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 43:48

And that's just where I'm at.

Kate Coomber 43:51

Which is not quite like foreign for a healthcare when you're and if you're in a regional or rural remote setting where if you don't Show up, no one shows up.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 44:02

Yeah.

Kate Coomber 44:02

That must just be an extra layer.

Balancing The Scales For Women

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 44:04

Yeah, yeah. The obligation is intense. So that there's the obligation to community, the obligation to your patients, the obligation to your family as well, making sure that they're, you know, managed. And then the kind of people that medicine attracts is these type A, I'm one of them. Like type A go getters, tell me I can't do something, I'll do it anyway. Um people who don't always have their values aligned to to having a healthy, happy, well supported life. So it's only of recent times that like I've just decided that I I personally can't work 40 hours a week anymore. Just can't do it. I so I probably work on average 28. But there was years and years and years of my career where I was working 60, 70, 80, like even as an intern, I loved it. I honestly relished finally when I came out of med school and just that whole concept of holy shit, like I'm getting paid for this. Like I'm getting paid for something that I actually love. But was doing 14-hour shifts like regularly, telling all the other interns, no, if you don't want your shift, I'll do it. But at what cost, you know? It's not sustainable.

Samantha Miklos 45:15

No, not forever. And I guess that's where then we're seeing that shift now. We've spoken to a number of healthcare professionals who are pursuing creative interests now and content creation and blogging and you know, you said you're working 28 hours. Are there other passions that you're pursuing in those other hours?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 45:34

Yeah, and uh being really conscious to try and continue those recently. So um so my kind of passion started really strangely to be fair. So I I really love fashion and I particularly love First Nations fashion. So back in when I was I'll take you back to Port Headland days, so I love the races as well. So, you know, putting fashion, races, all of that together. Dressing up. Yes. Yeah, because there was not many opportunities in Port Headland to do that. Oh yeah, yeah. So you have to travel a bit, yeah. Well, yeah, they they actually come up with this concept. This was the inaugural year of um this Fashions in the Field competition where they were so this is WA State, um, all the different regions you could go, do your fashions in the field, put an outfit together, walk the catwalk and see how you went, essentially. Um so I put an outfit together and re it was completely hired. So head to toe was hired, and really didn't think too much about that, but my husband and I that um were going to go to the broom cup, so I had, you know, poured myself into this broom cup outfit, thought it was gonna be amazing. And just went into this competition thinking, I'll give it a crack. Anyhow, I won that heat, and then out of that, um, all the different girls, so you had Kimberley, Pilbora, South West region, all the different all the different regions, met in Perth and then there was this like three-day extra. Oh yeah. So it's not like when we go. No, it was so it was wonderful. Like the first prize for the heat was like, I mean, it's dependent on the individual race clubs, but it was a two and a half thousand dollar travel voucher. I was like decent. Yeah. Yeah. And then you got flown to Perth, three days, like I said, um, you know, food, wine, like you were. Really good. Yes, it was really great. And the other girls were wonderful. Like I met some friends that they're still doing fashions in the field and nailing it. So the the girls that I was sort of hanging out with at the time have taken out Melbourne Cup fashions recently, many times, a few of them. Um, but yeah, anyway, so I went down to Perth and it was a um $25,000 prize and I won.

Samantha Miklos 47:43

Oh wow. I was like, what the hell?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 47:45

Wow. It's like $10,000 cash.

Samantha Miklos 47:47

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 47:48

I've tripped to New York. New York, what am I talking about? Hong Kong.

unknown 47:51

God.

Vision, Law, And Advocacy Ahead

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 47:52

And um, yeah, some jewellery and flowers and all that kind of stuff. So that's just that just sparked my interest in fashions, fashions in the field. It sort of all started there. And at the same time, um, in Port Headland as well, on the hiring side of things, I just had this passion to try and increase the the availability of of nice clothes, because I'm a fashion addict, um, to the rest of the community, right? So I started a little um hiring business called Glamour in the Dust. And people could come and borrow items from me. And it was more of a social community rather than anything. But my idea with that was to try and um leverage from fashion and then talk about health and wellness and well-being, and to try and go out to the school communities and and and use this platform. This is early days influencer. Yeah. Um, and then I was really keen to try and find some First Nations fashion to also, you know, to showcase, right? There was nothing around in 2017, but there's just like a flood now of of different designers. I'm wearing my Mimi and Ginder. Where is this? Yeah, so this is Mimi and Ginder. They're actually um fairly local to here. So uh Coffs Harbour um family group, so it's Mimi and Ginder is like grandma and and um daughter, so in their language. Yeah. Um but yeah, so um Melissa Greenwood is is one of the designers' names and her um mum or nen.

Kate Coomber 49:26

We'll have to drop their details in the show.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 49:28

Beautiful, yeah. And my other favourite is Mara, so Julie Shaw is um heads up the Mara Collective, and I often rock her. I was texting her actually before the podcast going, Sissy, are you around to like send me some clothes? She goes, Oh babe, you need to give me some more time. And then I realised that I packed these pants anyway because I just love them. But um, but yeah, going back to that, so there was no First Nations fashion sort of like high-end fashion or um available. And um yeah, now there's an explosion. But the reason I do or I started all of those kind of initiatives and my thought process behind all of that is that I was in such a man's world in Port Headland. There wasn't very many places to go out to dress up, big mining towns. Mining town. But there was a plethora of young girls who wanted to to do that, right? Like mining towns attract usually young, younger crews, you know, women who like uh, you know, childbearing age or thereabouts or what have you, and people who are adventurous and wanted to go there to make something of themselves, you know, get ahead, great place to go and do it. But um, yeah, not very many opportunities. So I used to kind of, again, it's my rebellious streak coming out, like wear lots of, you know, over-the-top stuff to work. Did you used to wear heels all the time and Port Headland when everybody else is in high vis and you know work boots. But um, yeah, it was just kind of like this rebellious branding of you know what, yeah, we're in this raw rustic, I think it's absolutely stunning, the landscape in Port Headland and and surrounds, but it's not everybody's cup of tea. But I wanted to just stay grounded in the femininity of it because when you're working in a place that's like four to one male to female ratio, surrounded by yeah, all of the high vees, it kind of gets monotonous after a while. So yeah, that was my aim to try and like bring back some some of that feminine energy, which I feel like I was losing. Like medicine is so like cutthroat in such that you know, problem solve, problem solve, problem solve all the time.

Samantha Miklos 51:33

Or it's quite a lot of that masculine energy too. That's not that nice creative flow. Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 51:38

Yeah, which I find is interesting, right? Because more women these days want to do medicine than men, generally speaking. I think the ratio is just a a little higher for for women. I haven't seen the stats recently, but um but yeah, it it is very difficult, I think, in that space to try and kind of continue to capture that essence of of trying to balance things out from an energy point of view if you interrupt that, which I am.

Kate Coomber 52:07

But but I guess if you think about um women for a long time trying to make sure that they're equal and various things like that, then you can lose those feminine elements because you almost feel you have to, or if you're in a male-dominated area, you almost feel you need to be a certain way. Yeah. So it's beautiful um uh to think you can still retain those parts of yourself. And I guess uh that brings us to International Women's Day this year. I guess what does that mean to you? Or I think this year the theme is balance the scales.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 52:42

Yep.

Kate Coomber 52:42

So I guess talking about that, what does that mean to you? Where are the scales most out of balance?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 52:48

Yeah, it means hard work. Yeah. Which is is sad to say, but it is it is difficult to balance a life of continual obligation. Um, you know, where you're always technically on. So even putting boundaries around things like I'm really cutthroat around Christmas and New Year, and when my husband and I go tools down, and I'm like, right, that's it. Put your laptop down. He's also an Aboriginal doctor as well, so we've got a huge family that have expectations. It's not just our family either, it's like community too that, you know, brothers, come on, can't you do a medical certificate for us? Can't you? Can you just do us a quick script?

Kate Coomber 53:30

Can you go to a social event and you're just like, oh, you know, what's the results for that?

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 53:35

Or oh, just you know, like it never ends, right? And you know, you again that sense of obligation to always give and serve and um and do well, particularly because of our backgrounds, I suppose, and the different values that we bring into our whys for doing medicine and and all of that kind of thing. But getting balance right without going too far is is quite tricky, you know, because people get quite offended when you're like, no, sorry, I'm on holidays. But why should it be that difficult for home?

unknown 54:08

Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 54:09

But nowadays also I'm really being more and more strict as well, trying to put my family first, and particularly my son, you know, like I'm an older mum, and like everyone says, it goes so quick, and they just grow up but in front of your eyes, right? So I have even on my email signature, like I work these days. I work doing this, this, and this. And I even told my GP registrers recently we were lucky enough to get three of them, and I said, girls, like ladies, um, I I don't want you to be back after five o'clock. I want you to make sure that you're having your lunch breaks. I don't want you to answer emails on the weekend. You won't get one from me. I said, because I won't be answering you after 5 p.m. on a Friday. It's not happening, not happening in our organization. So I think it's a trying to shift that whole ethos of that feeling that you continually have to give because we've got to just draw a line in the sand, I think, to try and tip that balance back to being equal and that you know, as selfish as it sounds sometimes I suppose, but you just need to do what's right for you first and and what's important to in your patch. And if that's family, then that's it. If it's if it's work, that's great too, but still I think there needs to be some kind of caveats around that that you're doing it healthily and safely. Safely is the other important thing, you know. If you're overworked and you don't have the balance right, then you lose perspective. And I think that um that can probably lead to a lot of decisions that that are made that aren't probably the right one. If you were more balanced and were more rested and did look after your own health, I'm a big advocate as well for um for our doctors particularly to to really stop for a minute and look at their own health because there's so many around that are not fit, that are I'm not saying that fitness is everything, but I'm just talking about just generally abiding by our own suggestions.

Speaker 1 56:07

You know, that's what you preached.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 56:10

Yeah, it's not actually that difficult to eat well, to exercise, to do all of those things because it brings the balance back, it makes you a better person. You can give from a fuller cup, maybe not the fullest. But yeah, I d I I think it's a great theme. And I think it is something that particularly as women, we need to to speak about and consider and reflect on, do some personal reflection about you know where you're sitting and how you can do things better. Like I'm forever hitting Kevin up, my mate Kevin from ChatGPT. No, truly, you should see some of the little things in my library, like it's about longevity and how do I increase my VO2 max so that you know, so I'm gonna be around for a bit longer for my son and really trying to get down into the minutiae, it's probably taking the balance a little bit too far. But yeah, Kevin's forever telling me, you got this, you know, you're already doing all these things really well, but um yeah, I just I think that we all need to just take stock of where we're where we're sitting and take some personal responsibility as well for feeling happy and well and safe and grounded and balanced and all of those things that everyone, you know, tries so hard to get to. But like I said, it is work. You do have to do that work.

Kate Coomber 57:27

That's interesting what you said about taking the personal responsibility too, because I think sometimes we look to others to create that wellness for ourselves. We're trying to outsource it, and yeah, you know, you need your employer to do X or you need this, whereas it's actually like what do you need to be successful? What do you need to be well? Yep.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 57:44

It's like there's no point in hiring a personal trainer if you're not going to do the work, right?

Kate Coomber 57:48

Yeah, I can speak for it.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 57:49

Or you know, get a gym membership. That's a classic, right? Yeah, get a membership and then. Yeah, absolutely. You look back on your history and you go, oh, okay, well, I went five times in three months. That was really a great financial decision.

Samantha Miklos 57:59

Yes, totally. Did you mention in our conversation that you'd wanted to be on Play School? Oh yes. Like, what else is there on your vision board? I mean, obviously being on this podcast was a vision board, you know. For 2026, we've done that. Yeah, look, you know what else? I really, I really would love. I think Play School's missing a doctor, yeah? Yeah, I also think you'd be amazing on there.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 58:20

Thank you. So play school, what else? I have actually enrolled this year in as you do, in a master's of um legal and oh, what is it actually called? It's it's bridging um law and medicine together. With the outcome for me is to try and really solidify more of this cultural governance and um more of that type of authority into the into what I do every day. So there is a um class action that's happening for some poor outcomes in um healthcare and mob up in the Taurus and the Cape. And I'm just trying to get myself prepared because I'd like to be on that team as well, just advocating for um yeah, some of the potential, you know, well not potential, but if there's a class action, there has been some cultural harm and also some medical harm that's occurred um out of that and really advocate for our people from that perspective.

Kate Coomber 59:15

With your episode, CMR are going to be donating to a a charity of your choice. Sort of where can we talk about today for for you? So I think that's a tricky one.

Dr Sarah Jane Springer 59:30

I I think so the most obvious for me would be the Australian Indigenous Doctors Association. But if we could specify that that goes to rural women, um like maybe I don't know, some kind of I'm not sure, I'm not sure how much you guys are donating. But it could potentially go for towards a scholarship or something for them to attend the annual conference or something like that would be great because it is those places where we we see the people that are doing the work and that light for them um hopefully gets brighter. Because like we say, you can't see what you can't see. Well you can't be what you can't see, sorry. Yes. So I think that would be the most influential spot for the money to go in terms of you know creating the next round of of of rebellious, ambitious, yeah, um, you know, young First Nations women doctors that are just not going to be told no and just keep going and keep pushing because there's yeah, there's a lot of discomfort in challenging systems that weren't designed for us. And I see that every day. And I, you know, I'm sure I've been called many names around some of the advocacy work that I've been trying to do, but I don't care because someone has to do it and our communities rely on it, and um yeah, I think that's what I've been put on this earth to do is to use my lippy mouth to challenge um and advocate for the people who you know don't have the opportunity to do that themselves. So I try and balance that out with the soft elements like being the doctor in play school and having fun. But what a cool role model would that be, like role modelling episode for my son as well. Be like, oh my god, my mind is on play school. Yeah, yeah, boy. Incredible.

Samantha Miklos 1:01:20

Yeah Sarah Jane, I can totally see why you were nominated for that award and how lucky we are that you work on this earth because you are one inspiring lady, you know, healthcare, now law, modelling, ambassador, governance, author down the line, like best place, girl host, all of the things, like you are so many things and so inspiring. We've been so lucky to have Ayan with you today. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 1:01:47

We care for the lessons.

Kate Coomber 1:01:52

We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which we meet, who for centuries have shared ancient methods of healing and cared for their communities. We pay our respects to elders past and present.