42. Is Spirituality Missing From Healthcare? | Nurse Rachel

Some nurses treat symptoms. Others help people feel truly seen. First Nations Nurse Rachel McLeod, shares why healing is about far more than clinical care. Drawing on nearly 20 years of experience across rural and multi-purpose health services, Rachel explains how story, trust, spirituality, and cultural understanding shape the way she cares for people in their most vulnerable moments.

Rachel reflects on growing up on Country, the grief that shaped her nursing journey, and the realities of working in rural emergency settings where nurses often lead in high-pressure situations. She also shares powerful insights into Indigenous healthcare, communication barriers, cultural safety, and why listening matters more than simply ticking boxes.

This episode is for anyone passionate about rural healthcare, culturally safe practice, and the human side of nursing. If you believe healthcare works best when people feel heard, understood, and cared for, this conversation will stay with you long after it ends.

Rachel's organisation of choice is Nourish Street Inc., a grassroots charity powered by the local community, providing essential support to people sleeping rough. Their work is entirely funded by the community, enabling their volunteers to deliver food, supplies, and dignity to those most in need.

It Takes Heart is hosted by cmr’s Samantha Miklos and Kate Coomber and recorded at cmr’s head office in Brisbane.

We Care; Music by Waveney Yasso

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Transcript

Introduction

Sam Miklos 0:00

Hi, I'm Sam. And I'm Kate. What if the missing piece in healthcare isn't clinical but spiritual? And what would happen if we prioritised connection and community in clinical care?

Rachel McLeod 0:11

We can have a patient that comes in and we can see straight away what that person's carrying. Right, it doesn't matter who what background the person comes from, what culture they are, ethnic background, we can see what that person is carrying, but we can't do anything about it.

Kate Coomber 0:28

And don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on Instagram so that you can get to know our guests a little bit better.

Sam Miklos 0:40

Okay, so today we are joined by a member of our CMR community, Rachel McLeod. Rachel is a registered nurse with almost 20 years experience, and she is so loved by the communities that she supports that our clients are always asking if she can stay longer or extend her contract. In fact, one client recently said Rachel is everything. I wish we could keep her great knowledge, brilliant clinical skills, an incredible asset. Welcome, Rachel, to It Takes Heart.

Rachel McLeod 1:09

Thank you. I'm very good and excited to be here.

Sam Miklos 1:13

It's wonderful to have you. Rachel, would you like to start today by giving your own acknowledgement to country?

Rachel McLeod 1:19

Yes. So I am a Yugatapol woman from the Yagra Nation, uh right here in South East Queensland, uh born in Ipswich, raised in Berezit. So I'd just love to give a big shout out to all my mob out there and to any other First Nations people who may be listening in on this um podcast. Um great welcome to everybody. Our country is for all of us to share and nurture together. So yeah, a big shout out to everybody and to those of non-Indigenous um culture who are also sharing our country with us. We do love having you here. Absolutely.

Sam Miklos 1:56

Yeah, I love that straight from the heart. Yeah, Rachel, um, I guess going back to um the love that our our clients feel for you. I'm I'm keen to know, I don't know if you know, but like, why do you think our clients have loved having you so much on contract? Do you think there's something special that you bring to those contracts? What do you think is it that sets you apart?

Rachel McLeod 2:21

Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a little bit um, you know, everybody has a story, um, and even when they come into the clinical practice and our patients and even the staff that we work with, everyone has a story, and that contributes to the holistic care that we actually give in the workplace and that our um patients um receive that. So having that being an approachable person and just recognizing that story behind people, it helps us to plan our care better, but to relate to people on that personal level, whether it's the staff or patients, because if our staff aren't happy and they're struggling, we can't give the best care to our patients, and they need us to be in that space where we are happy and healthy just to be there at work. And I think if you love your work, which I do, um, I'm absolutely 100% for people receiving healing. I believe that healing is a major factor in fixing a lot of barriers um within people individually, but which will contribute to making our society and our country better. So I'm really big on the healing, and I guess it's recognizing that not just the patients um need to go on that journey, but we as nurses um and other staff around us all have that journey as well. And we just need to be mindful of that with each other. And I think that that's a huge contribution um to to our work and to our patients. I think that's what people probably recognise the most.

Kate Coomber 4:04

I think we need more of that in the world generally, don't you think? And yeah, in whatever sector, in any industry, in any profession, it would be lovely if we all took that view of just understanding each other a little more.

Rachel McLeod 4:17

Yeah, absolutely. But I I believe that we uh our us individually, we are the gift to the world. You know, so if we nurture the the the potential and the identity of people, sometimes people lose that in their experiences as they're growing up and getting older. You know, bad things happen and some people can get lost along the way. And when they reconnect to their identity and they become a gift to the world, you know, and that helps our um our society come together, I feel. You know, when you're working at your capacity, but when you're broken and you're you're you're lost, that journey gets interrupted.

Sam Miklos 4:58

And is when you work clinically, how do you bring those stories to life? Is there is there certain questions that you always ask patients and families or staff when you interact with them, or is it the listening?

Rachel McLeod 5:14

It's the listening and just taking that time um just to sit down and chat with that person, and it doesn't necessarily have to be about why they're in the ED. If you just sit down and talk with them, um the story will come out. And I find that you can pick up a lot of um additional information without having to ask for it if you just sit and chat with people. And I found over the years that that's actually the best way of getting the information that I need from them rather than targeted questions. Um, because people come in to the ED, um, they're not themselves, you know, and they're not thinking right. There's something that's interrupting that flow. So if you just sit down and chat with them, they they all bring that out themselves. Um so you can get a lot in five minutes of just sitting with somebody rather than sitting there for half an hour asking specific questions. Um and I feel I feel that's just a better way. It's just that time and that listening.

Kate Coomber 6:15

So less checking boxes and more just soliciting. So you talked there about the ED and patients coming into an ED. Talk to us about the type of work that you do because I believe you do locum work.

unknown 6:26

Yeah.

Kate Coomber 6:26

We said earlier that our clients often want to extend you. So an initial contract becomes a longer contract. I guess what's what's the work you do now? What type of nursing?

Rachel McLeod 6:35

So I've worked mostly in MPS sites, which is multi-purpose services. So they incor incorporate a hospital with the emergency acute and any other things that that hospital might run through to aged care. So it's all incorporated in the one organization. So you have to be multi-skilled to be able to work in an NPS site.

Sam Miklos 6:58

Because would you work in the ED, the acute, and age care? Absolutely, yeah.

Rachel McLeod 7:02

Yeah, so you have to have the skills to be able to operate all of those areas. Um, so you have to have emergency training um to come out to an MPS site, it's preferred. You can get trained on site, but you will get thrown in at the deep end straight away, and you need to be able to manage that. Um, so there are some exceptions, um, but definitely your ED training um is essential because whatever comes through those doors, regardless of the nature of of what the people are experiencing, you have to be able to manage it. So from mental health, um, your emergency trauma, MB MBAs, um, everything.

Sam Miklos 7:46

Um where in Australia do we find these MPS services? Certain size of towns. Is there a certain town? Yeah, yeah.

Rachel McLeod 7:54

So MPS services are the smallest sites. So you've got like your metro, and then you're moving out into your regional rural, and that's where you'll find your MPS services. Right. And then from there, obviously, you've got the um remote, yeah. Um, more in the central and outback sort of areas of Australia. So yeah, your regional, rural, small towns that um don't have large teaching hospitals, they've just got small AE um type facilities, but you have to be multi-skilled to work in that setting. So you're sort of the in-between the rural and the metro, if that makes sense.

Kate Coomber 8:35

And have you ever explored going further remote and doing that real remote area nursing work?

Rachel McLeod 8:41

Yeah, I have. Um when I back when I first started nursing, um, I had wanted to go rural, um, uh sorry, remote, yeah, remote. But my children were young at the time, and so it just wasn't the right right time to go. Um, but now that I my children are all grown up now, you know, my baby is will be 28 this year.

Speaker 2 9:06

Wow.

Rachel McLeod 9:07

So I have more opportunity to do that now. But I love the MPS sites because it gives me um steady contact in all the areas and keeps all my skills in all those areas. And I like to have all my skills. So should we maybe go back a little way then to when you first started?

Kate Coomber 9:27

I like story. Whisking all the pieces. But let's maybe go back to when tell us a little bit about maybe where you grew up, a little bit about you, and then how you found your way to nursing.

Rachel McLeod 9:41

So, like I said, I was born in Ipswich, uh raised in Bodessert, out on a little cattle station called the Hollow. Um, my grandparents worked out the holler, um, and there was Mr. Tilly who was in charge of it at the time. My family lived in a little uh a hut, a little wooden hut that had no modern facilities in it. Um, so our water, you know, our washing, everything was in the freshwater creeks out at the holler, nothing modern at all. Um, eventually, after my father, because he was a fencing contractor, moved us to Beltana, which is in uh you're moving out in towards your more remote northeast South Australia. Um, very desert country out there, so we had a house which was a little bit more comfortable. House inverted commas for those listening. That house more comfortable. Um it was just a little bit more insulated, yeah. Maybe an extra room or two, um, and the bathroom um was just a bathtub. We had still had to cut water. Um our water taps ran on top of the ground, there was a well, um, but again, no modern comforts.

Speaker 2 10:58

Yeah.

Rachel McLeod 10:58

Um in the mid to late 80s we actually moved to Corn, and that's when we lived in South Australia. In South Australia, yeah, Corn, South Australia, and that was the first place where we actually lived in a comfortable modern civilised home. With running water. With running water and a toilet inside.

Kate Coomber 11:17

It's interesting. I've just come back from a few days camping with the kids, and it's one thing that they said is you know, we had no running water, and we had to walk over here and we had to fill a bucket and bring it back to wash dishes or to do any of those things, and it it they said that. They said, Can you imagine?

Rachel McLeod 11:31

You know, yeah, yeah. And that's like the first half of my life when I was living like that.

unknown 11:36

Yeah.

Rachel McLeod 11:37

Incredible. So we had to wash in the creek, um, get our water. We had a big cauldron and um we would light a fire, but we would have to cart our water. Um, so it was very, very basic living. Um, but absolutely loved it.

Sam Miklos 11:52

I was just gonna say that my eyes are like lit up when you're talking about this.

Rachel McLeod 11:56

Absolutely, yeah. So I absolutely loved growing up on country. Yeah. I wouldn't have traded that for anything, and I miss even living in society now. Like I have my own home and core now, five bedroom house and two blocks of land and lots of dogs, but I I would not trade what I've got now for the upbringing out on country. It's beautiful, it's the best part of my life. Love that.

Sam Miklos 12:19

And did that um did anything about your upbringing um I guess shape you wanting to get into healthcare at all? Where did where did nursing stem from?

A Dream That Set A Calling

Rachel McLeod 12:30

So where that came in, um so we obviously raised in culture, me and my brothers and sisters. We know everything about Aboriginal culture. Um, the only thing we know about non-Indigenous culture is we live in town now, so there are a lot more comfort comforts, you know, in society. But our our culture is Aboriginal and that's who we are. So when my youngest son was probably about three years old, you know, he just started Kindi. I was like, right, I need to do something now because he'll be in school soon. Um, I'm also a Christian, absolutely love Jesus Christ, and with my culture and my Christianity, I wanted to heal people, you know. So I said, Lord, if if I've got to work, I need to do a job that's gotta be like you. I want to heal people. And I had this dream one night, and I was walking past the basketball courts in Corn, and this elderly white male had been going for a walk and he fell down in front of me on the ground, and I I'd rushed over in my dream and I'd placed my hands on his chest, and my hands um just lit up with light and fire over this man's chest. So when I woke up, I was right, yep, that's it. I'm gonna be a nurse, I'm gonna heal people. Wow, and that's what I did, and I haven't changed my course since then, and I absolutely love it. Yeah, so healing people. Uh you know, like I said, for me that's a major factor um and breaking barriers.

Kate Coomber 14:03

And so you mentioned there your smallest was three, did you say at the time? And so you got three children? I have three children, yes. So then how did you go about becoming a nurse?

Sam Miklos 14:14

And you were living in corn, so where did you study? How did all what's in corn?

Rachel McLeod 14:19

Yeah, so Corn is a small farming community 40 kilometers northeast of Port Augusta, which sits right on the innermost part of the Bight in South Australia. It's about three hours from Adelaide, so Corn's about three and a half. Um, like I said, it's a small uh farming community, probably about three thousand people, but during the holidays that can um double to like six, seven thousand with all the tourists coming through. The hospital there is very, very busy, and the AE department can rival sometimes the Port Augusta hospital, which is a larger hospital 40k down the road. Um, very busy. So when you go to work there, you put your shoes on, you hit the floor running, and very rarely will you have time to stop. And I there's a missconception I feel about the rural MPS sites that people think they're gonna go there, it's gonna be nice and easy. It's sleepy, it's sleepy, and they're just gonna have a rest, and then that just does not happen. That's not the reality of MPS sites. Yeah, so anything can come through that door, um, it you you don't get rest.

Sam Miklos 15:33

So, were you able to study at Corn or did you have to go into Adelaide?

Rachel McLeod 15:38

No, yeah. So once once I'd after I'd had that dream and decided, okay, I'm gonna be a nurse. Um, I then did my aged care traineeship. Alright, so you know, I'm a Christian, I speak to the Lord, you know, opened doors for me, and he did this aged care traineeship popped up through the Corn Hospital. So I applied for that and got it. Um, and then from there I went straight from the aged care certificate straight into university through the Wyala campus, and I did that external because I had the children at home. My husband worked on a mine, the Beverly Uranium mine at the time, so he was gone every second week, week on, week off. So I did my studies externally through the Wyala Um University of South Australia, and Wyala is probably about an hour's drive from Corn. Um, and it's like similar to Port Augusta, it's quite a large rural town. Um, they have a huge hospital there with many units. So I did my my training, went in for the workshops and then did my studies at home.

Sam Miklos 16:40

How'd you manage that? Three children.

Rachel McLeod 16:42

Yeah, yeah. It was hard. Asking for a friend. I'm like someone with three small children. Any tips? Yeah, no, so while the kids were at school and at Kindi, that was my study time. When the kids came home, the studying went away. It was all for it was me and them. Yeah, so you just have to find that balance, what works for you. Families are different. Um, so what worked for me may not for somebody else. Um, but that was my balance. Yeah. You know, while they were studying, I was studying. Yeah. Yeah. When they were home, I was home.

Kate Coomber 17:13

Yeah. And then so how old were they then, I guess, when you were graduating and getting ready to to be an RN?

Grief And How It Changed Nursing

Rachel McLeod 17:20

Yeah, so I graduated in November 2025. Uh my oldest was eleven, um, my daughter was nine, and my baby was seven at the time. So I graduated November 2025, uh 2005, sorry. And I was due, I signed a contract with the Corn Health Services to begin in February of 2006, and then four days before I was due to start that contract as a brand new registered nurse, my husband died on the uranium mined.

Sam Miklos 17:56

Oh, yeah.

Rachel McLeod 17:57

So then that that set my journey into nursing back a little bit, and then I had to learn come into that nursing to learn how to be a nurse on top of dealing with uh husband that just wasn't there anymore. Yeah. Oh my goodness. So that was a bit of a setback. It took me a little bit harder to get my head around a lot of nursing stuff. Um took a while, but once once we me and the children found our feet in our new way of life, then you know, obviously it went well from there. But that first period of losing him was very hard.

Kate Coomber 18:32

I can't even imagine. Did you have family support around at that time? Like you talked about there, your three children in corn. Who else was there with you?

Rachel McLeod 18:41

So my mum and some of my siblings. So I'm the oldest of seven. Um, and my mum and my siblings were amazing. Um, so they would help do the school stuff and the kindy stuff with my baby. Um, while I studied, if it was on days, you know, um, like the weekends, if I had to do stuff, they stepped up and they helped do all that stuff. They were absolutely amazing, and that I think that's what's carried me and my children through is that our family's just so big and everybody was on board. Yeah.

Sam Miklos 19:11

When you talk about earlier on, you know, your patients having their story, how did that moment in your story impact the way that you um approached nursing when you did get into your career then?

Rachel McLeod 19:26

Yeah, so just going through that grief journey and all the emotions that you obviously go through when you lose somebody and how it can affect your mind. Um, when your mind takes a hit, it doesn't fully recover, um, never gets back to a hundred percent, you know, and you know, your neural pathways are reshaping all the time. So that helped me to understand that when patients were coming in, they were not at their best capacity, um, functionality, and so that gave me the patience to sit uh to sit with them in that moment where they weren't functioning well and to meet them there, and then we just walk through that together. Um, I think when people have these types of experiences, they can rely on that and remember, you know, I was in this spot at one time and my mind wasn't working well back then. So I understand what the patient is describing to me now because I've been there.

Speaker 2 20:26

Yeah, yeah.

Rachel McLeod 20:26

And so that's that experience, um, if we can relate it to other people and their story, you know, you sort of connect the dots, and then that helps that um that flow to happen between you and the patient.

Sam Miklos 20:41

Oh sorry, I was. I was gonna say you talked before about your dream and placing your hands on the white man and and having that impact. As you've gone through your career, have there been other members of your family that have been sick that um you've had to nurse through those moments? And have you felt that you've had that that power to do that? Yeah, so that makes that makes sense. So I was thinking about this vision of you, and I'm like being such a healer, being able to heal those that you love.

Rachel McLeod 21:17

Yeah, so we when somebody goes on a healing journey, healing can incorporate a lot of things, and it's not just a physical um laying hands on somebody, there's a supernatural element that is attached to that. So, Aboriginal culture is very spiritual, and we learn the supernatural power that um that people can possess, and also being a Christian, we learn it through our faith as well, and they're pretty much the same thing, you know, to lay hands on somebody and be able to command sickness to leave or to take spirits. So sometimes bad spirits come or somebody can carry a wrong spirit and sometimes those spirits can make the person sick. So there's a difference between a a physical, natural illness that can occur um and something that can be a spiritual thing. So we learn the difference between the two and that impacts in how we would deal with it. And the laying on of hands comes from the supernatural, spiritual side of things. So and my dream I interpret it as not only just to be healing people, but there's power in our beliefs and in our hands.

Kate Coomber 22:29

And have you had the opportunity in your work over the years to practice in this way? Because I imagine that perhaps there are some services where they're like no. Tick the boxes, check the list. You know, absolutely go through the motions as opposed to this.

Rachel McLeod 22:49

Beautiful yes you know it's it and it's a very frustrating thing when you're in an organization and there's policies and there's structure there and the spiritual component is not always recognized. Even though we talk about holistic care and spirituality in that it's not the reality is as we don't embrace it enough. And the spiritual component is a major part of people's health and their mental health because there are influences. You know it's there you can't see it but you know there's a force there's energy there and that's how the the spiritual healing happens as well it's that spiritual that energy and force that you can't always see but you know it's there so you use it. If that makes sense. And so I guess going back to your question do your family all look to you to be absolutely absolutely on the on the doctor too so if you've got any examples you can share with us so many every time something goes wrong with somebody no matter how big or small it is they're on the phone straight away so it's a very regular regular thing and if they've got questions they will ring me up first and then I will say okay this is what I think it is and and then you can get they can go to the to the hospital or the doctor then and they know what they're going to ask for and they know what they need to check. For example my my youngest son was bitten by a spider not long ago on his right foot rang me up straight away because he had this incredible pain and he and the pain just got worse over the next few days and it was so intense that he was vomiting he was sweating the sweat was just running off of him that's how intense the pain was and I was like okay I had a couple of days off of work I said um I'm coming home I need to check this I think you've been bitten by a spider maybe because the symptoms you know you sort of recognise and yep got there took one look at his foot yeah that's cellulitis you've probably been bitten by a spider let's go so he ended up on the drip you know but he never would have rang the hospital um because there's a lot of mistrust as well yeah let's talk about that yeah yeah a lot of mistrust a lot of um misinterpretation um and language barrier so when we obviously raised in aboriginal culture even for me sometimes there's a barrier even though I speak perfect English um I I still struggle sometimes with how a non-Indigenous person is thinking and then they they will treat me in the hospital and I only know the difference because I am a registered nurse and I'm good at what I do right so I I know to pull them up and say hey mm-mm I I think this here let's try this you know but my family members and other people who are non-clinical they don't know that and they wouldn't recognise the difference and they would just trust that person and then of course if that person they're not understanding um and that communication barrier and like I said even though I speak perfect English it can it still happens to me a lot. Can you give an example of maybe what you mean there in in misinterpretation because you know not everybody has a nurse a mum to call up and who can fly home and help right so if we're thinking about the wider community what are some examples of where it's just not marrying um because they might not realize yeah and they know it feels wrong but don't know why yeah yeah so a non-Indigenous person um if for example like you might be wanting to know information from your client about a specific thing say sexual health for example right so you want to know if you know this this patient has any sexual partners recently that might explain some of the symptoms that they have but how they actually ask that person who they've been with can mean many different things for us. So what might seem straightforward um to a non-Indigenous person you know and how you would frame that question um you could ask it to me and I could say yeah yeah that's that's right I have but you might be looking for something specific so you've not specifically come out and said um have you been with in the last couple of days well yeah I have been with somebody but you're not asking me have I actually been intimate with that person. You know so it's how you sort sort of frame it and I'm just trying to be a little bit delicate with that of course um so how a question might be framed won't mean the same thing to us. Yeah. Yeah you know so most of us know if you've been with somebody referring to intimacy um personal intimacy but to us it could be yeah I've been with that person I was out with you. We were out with them yesterday it's a simple thing but it can cause a lot of misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

Sam Miklos 28:18

Yeah if that makes sense absolutely so then you can take that and apply that to lots of different things um in nursing yeah it doesn't matter what it is you can apply it to apply that to anything so it's the way that um you know a non-Indigenous nurse treats an indigenous client how can they um give a better experience you know if you were to sit down with an a non-Indigenous nurse who's come out to Corn and go I'm gonna give you three tips for success what would they be?

Rachel McLeod 28:53

To make sure that they remember there's cultural protocols in our culture for men and women and there are things you can and cannot ask and you need to know the appropriate people to bring in to stand in that gap. The second thing is don't um don't take things at face value because we have we still practice traditional law in our culture and we we what would in society we would be called self-harming we actually those are actual practices so we may be scarred or there may be something about our feature that you might look at and think oh that person's not taking care of that particular thing you know like dentistry for example but they're actually signs of um that this person has actually been through our cultural laws and initiations so there's not a mental health issue there's not self-harming there these are our practices so don't immediately look at somebody and think oh I know what's going on here you don't unless you know what our culture practices so it's just that don't don't be quick to judge just sit back and let's just listen for a minute and let's get a story around this and again it's it's important to have the right person there if it's a man and we're female and vice versa the third thing is our people aren't dumb don't talk to them like they're babies okay they they have ears they can hear what you're saying they may understand what you're saying but there's a little bit of a language barrier and the issue is communication not that they're dumb so don't dumb the person down. See that a lot even with signage in some of the hospitals is very basic childish stuff and it's honestly insulting for us. Very insulting you know I look I get angry because my people aren't dumb right there's just a language barrier and we come from different cultures and if you're not prepared to sit in and learn about my our culture how can you understand what's going on here? You know it's like two different worlds and we've collided and we still haven't figured out how to navigate that properly.

Sam Miklos 31:10

And if someone's locuming out in like a location like Corn or somewhere else are there um clinicians like yourself that you give them those tips but then you can take that further and go here are our cultural practices here are the things that I need to teach you to set you up for success or is it more about that healthcare work and needing to seek that out so I will help somebody to navigate through those things and a lot of Aboriginal practitioners are absolutely happy to help people navigate through that but you can feel the energy off of people too when somebody doesn't want to learn and if we pick that energy up for you we're not going to force it on you.

Rachel McLeod 31:56

Yeah so it's it's it's a two-way street and it's a relationship you know between our cultures if we want something to improve we need to address what the gaps are and that means everyone needs to come to that party right so if you want to learn from me I'm I'm happy to do that. I would love to teach you what you can and can't do with my culture but you have to be able to receive that so and and that's another thing with people everyone has skills and experience and different knowledges in this country you know and we have to be able to receive that gift of receiving is really important I I feel because if you are if you put the walls up and and you you refuse to be teachable you can't do anything with with that type of attitude you know you have to be able to receive and then give us something back. So our culture is reciprocal you know um it's like it's like doing a trade if you come visit my country we'll give you a gift you know um and then we'll trade something you know and it means something it means we've made a connection so you give us something we'll give you something and vice versa but both of us we have to be able to give and receive to do that and that includes learning in a clinical setting about our culture um but not just our culture if you can receive that for Aboriginal culture and Torres Strait Islander people you can receive that to other cultures as well because there are so many.

Sam Miklos 33:23

Yeah yeah do you think um when we go back to the higher education and you know the nursing degrees are there gaps you see in that training even when you talk about spirituality I mean I was an occupational therapist and you know we talked about holistic care but I'm sitting thinking I don't recall us even thinking about spirituality of a patient. I felt like and I was in palliative care at the end it seems to come in. Yep we'd have a conversation then but there was all these other conversations I was in the ED as well and it was just ticking the questions.

Rachel McLeod 33:56

Yeah yeah so like I said like in my faith and in my culture Aboriginal culture is literally built on spiritual law the foundations of our our laws in the physical world are based on consequences for breaking spiritual laws if that makes sense so everything we do down here you'll reap what you sow and our laws were formed around that so we had s a very stringent strict practices and discipline in our culture because when you broke laws and protocols um it interferes this in the spirit world and then consequences don't just come on you but um you know spirits can transfer you know they can come from me through me into my children and down our generational lines and it's like where that spirit of intergenerational trauma comes from if that sort of makes sense. Yeah so it moves like a spirit and it goes because it's working through the person and they've suffered all these things and it changes how their their worldview and how they relate to the world and then those children grow up knowing that behaviour. Yeah right and then that's what they learn as normal. So you know two or three generations down the line it's culture it becomes another culture if that makes sense. Yeah so there's all of that stuff that comes into it.

Kate Coomber 35:22

And what about becoming a nurse you know it it sounds absolutely vital to have indigenous representation working within healthcare. But like how important is that to you and and do you see that improving?

Sam Miklos 35:42

How do we how do we encourage more representation in healthcare?

Rachel McLeod 35:46

Yeah I think one of the barriers is is there's a a like we said that lack of addressing the spiritual aspect. So if our culture is built on that but we walk into that clinical space that doesn't acknowledge it or recognise it and we're not allowed to practice it there only in certain circumstances. So they might bring in a traditional healer if the person's requested it but it's specifically requested. So that's spir having that spirituality we can have a patient that comes in and we can see straight away what that person's carrying.

Kate Coomber 36:24

Right where it doesn't matter who what background the person comes from, what culture they are ethnic background we can see what that person's carrying but we can't do anything about it because we're working in a system that doesn't embrace that and you just have to treat the clinical symptoms and and so I guess do you say that's frustrating yeah does that then not attract the right people does that then not attract the people that we need to come into medical so yeah definitely a barrier because while we can see um spiritually what might be going on with somebody and they've got a wrong spirit that's coming we call them wrong spirit so you've got a good spirit and you've got wrong spirit.

Rachel McLeod 37:07

So when that wrong spirit comes in and sits on a person it can influence the normal physical functioning and health of a person but we can't do anything about it in the modern clinical setting that we work in. Um outside of our job we can do that and we can talk freely about it but when you come into a white man's system as in the Australian health system it it's not it's not a thing. So how did you overcome that?

Kate Coomber 37:40

Because you're clearly a very spiritual person and you've had so much on country growing up and to then go into that system. Yeah and but you've done this a very long time and you seem to have found a beautiful balance. But initially how was that?

Rachel McLeod 37:55

Yeah so when I first came into nursing obviously I had to learn the difference between the two and how to do my practice around those things because the one doesn't welcome the other and even though I'm taught about holistic health and spirituality the definition of what spirituality is in that holistic um setting is very broad and can pass so much stuff it's very broad and it's very nonspecific like you can't pinpoint something so in our culture identifying if somebody is carrying something um so we know how to read it in people even through my faith you get taught how to read it in people. Same thing and but there's nothing you can do about it. So for example I had a lady who came in um at an MPS service that I was working at and I could see straight away what she was carrying but I couldn't do anything about it because our clinical practice in that hospital setting doesn't allow us to go into that that type of healing. So what happened is is that we you know we admitted this patient treated her with the drugs you know spent a little bit one on t one on one time with her to talk and let her express her emotions and stuff. That's the standard that we do with people if we care about what they're going through. But I couldn't do anything about what I knew was the spiritual issue because it's you know it's kind of taboo in in the nursing setting. So what's the answer there? There is no answer unless that patient it has to happen outside of work and the patient has to want you to to go through that journey with you. And that's part of the healing journey um that we need to go on because the spiritual has to be dealt with along with the physical and the mental health as well.

Sam Miklos 40:06

It's really like you can't isolate it. No it's like such a systemic change though in the training like it's a even just back to that training as a as a nurse for example like even just the coursework to change and the whale you were saying working in a white man's system until we we go back to the training in the way that we work that's that's going to be very challenging to to influence. But it sounds like one of the ways that you've worked through that challenge though is from coming back to the beginning where you're going back to what's someone's story. Yeah. And I imagine that there's an element through those conversations where some of that spiritual healing or opportunities that I bet you there's some magic that you weave into some of those conversations.

Rachel McLeod 40:51

Absolutely and one of the big things about that type of approach is when your patient becomes comfortable with you and they feel that they can trust you to be able to open up and tell you their story truth telling comes into it and truth telling being honest about what's happened to you what it made you feel um you know that the anger the fear truth telling about all that stuff releases a lot of spiritual energy can set people free especially if they embrace that and continue on that healing journey that's how you'll bring somebody out of it and obviously there's more to how you would do that in depth but that's just like in a nutshell but truth telling um is a major factor that's what sets people free.

Why Rural Nursing Builds Leaders

Kate Coomber 41:45

And so I guess we've talked about some of the challenges that you face working within a system but but I guess if we were going to talk to people and and really try and inspire people to take this path because we need more people like you choosing healthcare what are the really wonderful things that you love about being a nurse what what are some of the really things you just love?

Rachel McLeod 42:08

Yeah. So I love that I have a lot of capabilities and I can do a lot of stuff you know like the cannulation the taking blood and all the trauma stuff you know so we have m lots of skills and we have to maintain those skills and that's why I love the MPS sites because I get to keep all of everything that I've learnt over my 20 years of nursing I get to keep all of them and practice them all the time versus if I went into a city where they would have somebody that specifically would take blood somebody would specifically do the ECGs but in MPS sites you have to do all of that and I love that we get to um I think that makes us just special a special breed of nurses your your MPS and your remote nursing I feel that really sets us apart and just being in a position of leadership because then you can take that um especially when you get the students through and they come to these small rural towns and there's nothing there you know not a lot to do you can go for a walk or maybe go for a hike and climb a mountain but there's not we don't have things like the city has but you can teach them all these other skills in the in the nursing setting and you know that they're going to leave that placement knowing a lot more than some of the city nurses who work in specific units will know and I think that's amazing that you can help somebody upskill in that way.

Sam Miklos 43:41

And I'm sure that um you know we go back to that needing to change like the systemic changes at the education level but I actually had written to ask like there's graduates coming out or even candidates coming out on placement to have that experience you're able to sprinkle some of that training and and shape the

Rachel McLeod 44:00

way that they think and yeah yeah and it's really when they you know when you get an emergency coming in you know like there's been a car accident you've got multiple people coming in and then you've got to time manage prioritize and be able to lead you know so then they get a get an open view into what each of those different components of that nursing is like in that setting where somebody's life is literally in your hands um and that opens doors I feel for when you know they go on with their further studies to the different areas of nursing that they may want to get into because there's so much but yeah the graduates that come through they get to in these smaller and rural remote rural remote sites will get touched with all of that stuff that they won't necessarily get in the city. And I feel sometimes students will come out or even like other agency nurses will come out and they think it's just a little sleepy hospital and they're going to be bored stupid you know and then they they walk out the door straight away you know I've I've worked in in a site where another agency from a different agency not this one had come in and left like two or three hours into the shift this is not for me. Because I feel there's a misconception around you know these small country towns and what they're actually going to be exposed to. And they don't they haven't given themselves enough time there to realise no you're going to get slammed. You know it might be you this is your orientation day today so you're not counted in the numbers but tomorrow you're on the floor and what comes through that door you have to be able to handle it. So I feel that they don't give give it that chance to allow themselves to be exposed to what these small sites actually offer them. But I wouldn't trade them out for anything. I love the the small MPS sites.

Sam Miklos 45:55

I'm sure though um as much as it's you know not like a sleepy town I'm sure that there's still a little bit more time in in those interactions with your clients to be able to ask more of those questions and have those deeper conversations and hear their story and with the patients.

Rachel McLeod 46:12

Yeah with the patients yeah yeah yeah not always and again that's a a misconception um because you can have if your ward's full and you've got still got A and E coming in because it happens quite regularly you don't have a lot of one-on-one time and you really have to prioritize um how you're going to manage that. And you try and divide yourself up between your AE and the ones that are already in patients is on the ward. Yeah so it can be very challenging um but you can do it if you have those skills to be able to manage your time properly and prioritise it's essential in that type of setting. Yeah.

Kate Coomber 46:58

So much exposure like for someone to we hear it all the time don't we metro nurses going out slightly more rural and just upskilling so instantly yeah because what you're thrown into and you're not just waiting for the next person next to you to do it.

Rachel McLeod 47:09

Sometimes you may not have a doctor on site you're you're the doctor too. Yeah um and we have this um saves which is a virtual um link up between the city so um seven to seven at night for priority three four or five if we get people coming in you know the triage three four or five we can link up through the save service to connect with um an on call doctor overnight um which will be situated in Adelaide and we can get things dealt with but if it's a triage one or two and you don't have a doctor there you are required to manage that one or two until an on call doctor from somewhere else can get there or the retrieval team comes from the city. So you literally are the doctor and the nurse and that person is alive based on your skills in that moment. Sounds like we need really confident but curious people who are that they want to learn yeah yeah and so I meant about they're having that time to just sit there when they come just allow themselves to be exposed to what's there because they'll find that it wasn't what they thought. It's not just a little sleepy little town they're going to be bored stupid no that that very rarely happens.

Sam Miklos 48:21

Very busy very busy Rachel if we um if we reflect on your 20 years almost as a as a nurse is there a story or a moment if you think about your connection to um country to spirituality to all of the patients that you've seen is there um a moment in your career that um that's really sat with you that really lights you up and and keeps you going um there's probably there's a little bit of that in all the patients in all my interactions there's nothing specific but uh the best parts that I feel is when other First Nations patients come in and we we understand the spiritual connection we can get a lot more done because that person and you know me obviously being First Nations we connect straight away and we know what's the problem here.

Rachel McLeod 49:20

Yeah and that helps us to actually deal with that a lot better and we we're working on the same level whereas um if that connection isn't made you're working on different levels um and that that can make it hard sometimes but I think there's just a touch of magic in every single patient and um every interaction um but my favourite would be the making that spiritual connection with First Nations people because we are able we we recognize what's really going on here and we can address that without it interfering in the policies and procedures um because we have the same attitude towards why this is happening and we can sit down and say yeah this is what needs to happen this is what's what's happening um this is how we're gonna fix it um and then we can connect them then to the people out in the community um who can then actually take that so the same way how we would network somebody needs allied health or needs a referral to a specialist the same way we would network that way um with the First Nations people we can do the cultural networking as well behind the scenes and just say look just go see this person. Yeah whereas we can't do that with other people um which is sad because I feel like they're missing out on a lot of healing.

Kate Coomber 50:37

I think that every community you go to obviously very lucky to have you. Yeah bringing so much more than just your clinical skills clearly to every community that you're in. So CMR are going to make a donation uh with this episode when we publish it where can we be raising some awareness for what charity today can we talk about?

Rachel McLeod 50:58

Um Nourish Street Incorporated yes um here in Brisbane yes yes I had to do a little bit of research because I hadn't heard of them before and um so I was looking at that last night and what they do so working with um people in need homelessness you know with the meals and stuff but they're branch trying to branch out to like get the nurses incorporated and like have a clinical side to their organisation which I'm actually stoked about um because you know going back to people's stories um those people who are in need there there was a cause you know and once that cause is there and people are no longer able to control that in their lives everything else gets out of control. So everything really is connected to everything and I feel that this organisation is trying to connect those dots and obviously they're for everybody so Rachel thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.

Sam Miklos 51:57

It's been so you know we talk forever but I can listen forever it's you know you talked then about every patient has a little bit of magic in them. Yeah but I tell you what there's a whole lot of magic in you you are just a really really special special person and you know every community every patient that gets a moment with you is so lucky so thank you.

Kate Coomber 52:22

Yes you're welcome it's been great I've loved it yeah yeah and like I said before I believe that we are each one of us is a gift to the world and we just have to help people get on that journey to to re-identify with who they are so they can share their gift with the world because we all need somebody else's gift at some point in our life yeah thank you thank you you're welcome for the letter we acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which we meet who for centuries have shared ancient methods of healing and cared for their communities. We pay our respects to elders past and present