45. Bek Woodbine Returns: Chronic Pain, Nursing and Finding a New Way Forward

Bek Woodbine returns to It Takes Heart for a deeply honest conversation about chronic pain, recovery and finding a new way forward.

Since her last episode, Bek has undergone major back surgery and has been learning to live with the physical and emotional impact of chronic pain. As a nurse practitioner and host of Tenderness for Nurses, Bek shares what it feels like when the helper needs help, how pain can change your sense of self, and why learning to accept support has become part of her next chapter.

Bek also reflects on the future of nursing, including nurse wellbeing, boundaries, bullying, respect, the nursing shortage and the importance of returning to the basics of care.

This is a vulnerable and thoughtful episode about nursing, chronic pain, resilience and the power of honest conversations.

It Takes Heart is hosted by cmr’s Samantha Miklos and Kate Coomber and recorded at cmr’s head office in Brisbane.

We Care; Music by Waveney Yasso

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Transcript

Welcome back, Bek

Sam Miklos 0:00

Today on It Takes Heart, we welcome back Bek Woodbine, nurse practitioner, podcast host, and the voice behind Tenderness for Nurses. Since we last sat down with Bek, she has had major back surgery, worked hard through her recovery, and now finds herself in a new season of life. This conversation is a vulnerable conversation which explores the power of community in some of life's toughest moments.

Bek Woodbine 0:23

It's been a struggle because there's now limitations, and I hate, I hate the limitations. Even with work, there's things I can do and things I can't anymore, and I feel like I'm constantly managing myself.

Kate Coomber 0:39

So don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and pop over to the It Takes Heart Instagram page and follow us there so that you get to know our guests a little bit better. So today we are delighted to welcome Bek Woodbine back into our studio. I feel like it's been a long time since we've seen Bek. You joined us in season two where we talked about so many things. Um and you are host of Tenderness for Nurses, an incredible podcast. Absolutely. Um so much so that we now partner with you for your podcast, which is a thrill for us that you um Yeah, that it was so nice meeting you. Such a privilege. Um and I guess we haven't seen you in a little while and we thought we'd get you back in today just to ha have a bit of a catch-up, see where you're at. Um Yeah, how are you? What's happening in your world?

Bek Woodbine 1:36

Well,

Life since the back surgery

Bek Woodbine 1:37

it's up lots of ups and probably lots of downs. Um last year, as some of you would know, when I've spoken about on my podcast, um, I had major, major back surgery. Yeah. And it's been a bit of a struggle getting um back to where I was. And maybe I'll never get back to that point. So then that's that head thing trying to readjust my life around some limitations, which I hate.

Kate Coomber 2:08

But your audience might have missed you a little bit more. They actually have. I've got a week. I might have no audience. I thought yeah, I'm sure your audience are probably wondering, yeah, what is happening and

Bek Woodbine 2:22

But I did come back with a bit of a bang with horses um interviews, which we did here, and Remarkable Man and actually that um Bravery and Betrayal is now on Netflix. Is it Netflix or Prime? Oh so you can actually watch that movie now. And I urge everyone to watch that, especially with all the stuff that's going on around the SASR and um Afghanistan and that sort of thing. Remarkable show. And Horse is one of the people that instigated that and helped develop that movie. So yeah, watch it. It's it's gut-wrenching to watch, but so worth it. So But yeah.

Sam Miklos 3:03

When you say Bek, you're not back to where you need to be, what does that mean?

Bek Woodbine 3:08

So the my back surgery was quite complex, and there were quite a few things that were wrong, and even though my back is scraped, it's a little bit of that, you know, um domino effect, and you know, it's highlighted a few other issues with with my back and um yeah, pain, and it's just been a bit of a journey, and I find like most people that have have had some form of chronic pain, it really affects your mood. Um and it certainly does mine. So I've actually gone back and done some more um TMS.

Inside TMS: pain, mood and trust in the process

Kate Coomber 3:44

So you spoke about that last time. Do you maybe want to just talk about that again for anyone who may have missed that of what is TMS?

Bek Woodbine 3:49

So TMS is um transcranial magnetic sequencing, I think that's how you call it. And it's literally like a big magnet that sits on your head, depending, you know, left or right, or actually now for pain, it's actually in the middle of your head, so they're starting to use it for pain management. Um and it just pulses this sense it's a weird sensation. Um, and it's not like ECT, it's not shock therapy or anything like that. You're awake, you sit in a chair, it's for me it's 20 minutes. Um the first couple of times I feel quite tired after having it done, and then after that I just feel my mood improving. And look, to be honest, usually I sit and you know delve in and try and find out everything about it for whatever reason, this I haven't. I've just trusted the process, which is different for me.

Kate Coomber 4:47

And I think that might speak to the uh team you've got around you that you have trust in the world. Oh, therefore, because I think that that doesn't happen when you don't.

Bek Woodbine 4:53

No, absolutely. So you do have to see a psychiatrist to be uh able to have this treatment and um you need to be monitored while you're having it done because you can have seizures, that sort of thing. But for me, it doesn't work for everybody, but for me I found it to be fantastic. And so I just now if if I feel you know my mood is going down a little bit, I just ring up and make a booking and so do you have to do it consistently or is it more just I feel myself dipping, I'm I'm everyone is different. So I think for some people they have to when I did it f initially, I did it every day, five days a week, my whole 35 of them. So um and that was Medicareable, but see, I'm not Medicareable anymore now. If I was part of defence, I could be, but I have to pay for it out of pocket now, which is I think disgraceful, but because it really does make a difference. But the problem now is that you've got these clinics opening up that are sitting in that grey area. So they've found a little way around the yeah, the loopholes.

Kate Coomber 6:06

So we were talking about the wellness space, I think.

Bek Woodbine 6:08

Yeah, so it really does concern me because you know, things can go wrong. And you want to make sure that you're being looked after appropriately, especially with your brain. Well, I was just gonna say with your brain.

Sam Miklos 6:19

Bek,

What chronic pain takes from your sense of self

Sam Miklos 6:20

chronic pain, I've never experienced chronic pain. What does living with chronic pain do for your sense of self? How did that has that impacted your sense of purpose and

Bek Woodbine 6:42

um I've always been you know, super busy and um active and you know I would do Pilates every day, I've done Oxfams, I've done Kakoda, I've you know it's been it's been a struggle because there's now limitations and I hate I hate the limitations and even with work there's things I can do and things I can't anymore, and I feel like I'm constantly managing myself and sometimes I do a really shitty job at it. So I have an amazing um colleague, um Sarah, who works with me, and I've got Jay now in the clinic as well, and I've just trusted them to uh manage me better because I don't manage me very well.

Kate Coomber 7:37

And because you run your own business.

Bek Woodbine 7:39

Yeah.

Kate Coomber 7:40

Yeah, I just I just can't imagine how you it's stressful every every day because this isn't a period of time, presumably. This is it's very long term um what how do your team help you?

Bek Woodbine 7:56

The girls uh have got really strict with the hours I work and I also make sure that um I, you know, there are if I'm bending over people, I only do that a couple of times in in a day. And what we do now is we start with a small block and then we extend the block out that I'm working so that I don't have you know one client in the morning and then you know it's an hour break, and then not to be honest, not that there's ever an hour break, but um just so that we're managing me better. And then if it is a shorter day, I I go home and I get a heat pack, um, I have a bit of a rest, I'll go for a walk, I just try and manage it as best I can. And you know, my GP had a very stern chat with me the other day, and she's she just said, You've just got to change how you do things.

Sam Miklos 8:51

Do you think that that causes you to change the people that you allow in your circle? Um, you know, because if you've got to shift the way when you've obviously been very busy doing all the things, running, you know, fingers in every pie and running all everything, to have to be vulnerable now and ask for help, which I imagine would be challenging. I would find that very hard.

Bek Woodbine 9:13

I find

When your circle has to shrink

Bek Woodbine 9:14

it very hard.

Sam Miklos 9:14

Um I imagine that shifts then the type of people that you would let in and your circle would maybe shrink a little, or am I assuming completely wrong? I'm just speaking from what's what I'm feeling.

Bek Woodbine 9:27

No, you're 100% right. My circle has dramatically shrunk. Yeah. But then the other day I just my husband went on a trip to India at the end of last year on a motorbike and loved it. And I grew up on a farm, so I knew how to ride motorbikes, and I just went, you know what? I I'm going to be sore regardless. So I went and got my motorbike licence. Did you? Because we're going to do Nepal together. Now, am I going to be able to manage it or you know, am I being stupid? I don't know. But we've got to do some bigger trips than that before we book anything. But it felt so good, so good to, you know, go and do something, you know, a little bit crazy. I paid the price for it for a couple of days afterwards, but it was worth it. It was absolutely worth it. Oh yeah, yeah, it was great. And that's what I miss, that spontaneity and that um, yeah, just I just have to be, you know, this weekend for the family wedding, you know, because we were out in the country and the ground was all uneven, you know, I was I was getting really sore. So, you know, I said to my sister, because the wedding was in the shed out the back, yeah, um, I just went up and had to lay down on the couch for a for a while and then got up and went back to the reception. But that's stuff I don't want to be doing, but I have to do.

Kate Coomber 10:48

Yeah. For someone who might have been there on the dance floor and normally party. So when you talk about your your circle shrinking, I guess is that because there's judgment with people in chronic pain? Do people misunderstand what it is?

Bek Woodbine 11:08

It it is it is hard. And I I know my husband struggles uh with it. I struggle with it. Um and also I don't want to be, you know, I don't know, this whingy whiny pain in the ass uh person. Do you know what I mean?

Sam Miklos 11:24

Like And in a time when people are really busy too, you know, it's um Do you think people struggle too because um chronic pain you can't see?

Kate Coomber 11:33

Yeah.

Sam Miklos 11:34

Yeah. They really do people really do And then when you are up and about and and when you push through, it's kind of like, oh there you go.

Bek Woodbine 11:45

Yeah. They just don't see me at the end of the day when I can hardly get up and um or struggling to get into the car or um but it look it it's getting better. It's just I just gotta give myself some grace. And I think as women and as nurses, often we're not very good at giving ourselves that period of grace that we probably should.

Sam Miklos 12:12

And we see that too with our nurses, you know, when they um when they sign up and they disclose all of their health questionnaire. There is so much going on, and I think when um in healthcare, when you're in that profession and you're wanting to help, do you think that healthcare professionals pushed themselves to those limits and and and that would be resulting in more instances of chronic pain? Like Absolutely.

The fall on Wickham Terrace

Bek Woodbine 12:37

I actually was sitting and uh, you know, my back I mean look, I I had falls off horses and, you know, all sorts of stuff growing up and lots of sport and that sort of thing. But it was triggered by me walking down Wickham Terrace and I just it was slippery on the sidewalk and my feet just went out from underneath me and because it you know, I fell at an angle, I completely fractured my sacrum through, and that's how this has started. But how long ago was that? That was the end of um 20, what are we, 26, 23? So it was December 2023 and you know I sh I should have s waited and got an ambulance and got taken to the hospital straight away. But I was so mortified and I had a dog in one hand and um no one it was in in like there was a coffee shop in front of me, no one came and helped me. And how wild is that? Like I I was ho it was horrify and you know I had a s skirt on, I was thinking, oh god, have I flash flashed my badge? You know, like yes. Um and I remember I rolled onto my front and staggered up and then staggered to the car and drove to work. Sacrum. With a fractured sacrum and drove to work. And then the girls, I got there and they went, it it what are you doing here? And it was getting w the pain was getting worse. Oh god, it was awful. But in hindsight, you know, I should have called it ambulance, but I w what is it though that you think? I was too embarrassed. I didn't want to be lying there on the how long was an ambulance going to take? But financially that would have been probably the sensible thing to do. But and I would have got straight into and x-rays done and scans and all sorts and probably been managed completely differently to how I was. So, you know, but that's just typical nurse and female and you know, didn't want to cause didn't want to cause any drama.

Kate Coomber 14:48

Yeah, well I think particularly as a healthcare worker, when you see emergencies coming into the hospital or you see, you know, you see so much, I can imagine when that's your turn. You're just like, no, no. No, that's excessive. I'm fine, that's excessive. That's for that's for those people.

Bek Woodbine 15:03

I don't even know how I walked to the car. I was in agony. I just think about it now and go, God. You know. Yeah. It's probably the most painful thing I've and I've had, you know, a couple of breaks and surgery and whatever else. That would have been the most painful thing I've ever had it happen.

Sam Miklos 15:22

I can imagine then the struggle that you felt in this last period recovering, like considering that you got up with a fractured sacrum and got to the car, drove to work, um, you know, you don't want a badge of honour for that moment. But considering that you could do that in all of that pain and then to now be having to re-evaluate, I I think that that I imagine would just put so much more challenging, like, because that is just such a sign of who who you are.

Bek Woodbine 15:51

It's yeah, it's well, it's a sign of weakness, isn't it? Yeah. Well It's not. It's not, but it's it feels it feels like it is, you know. But you know, uh I've got good people around me, I've got some great support, I've got a good pain specialist, um, I've got a nurse practitioner that works with a pain specialist, she's been amazing and I've found a great GP. So, you know, I'll I'll get there and um I do exercise physiology and you know, I walk, I I look, I try and do as much as I can.

Looking for a silver lining

Sam Miklos 16:31

The lesson I was just gonna say though, like from that adversity though, there's always great lessons. But in these last few months, what are what have you learned? What are the what are the positives? Like what are the what are the things that happen you've gone, yeah, that's the silver lining in this moment.

Bek Woodbine 16:53

At the moment, I actually can't say there is for me. It's been a bit it's been a bit tough, but but it has it's actually made me uh look at my business differently and where it's going to go.

Kate Coomber 17:10

How so?

Bek Woodbine 17:11

Um because I'm not there, I haven't been there all the time, my business has changed. So I unfortunately had to make a couple of my staff redundant um and pair it right back to me and work around me, and then I suppose eventually we we've got other rooms in the clinic, so you know, I might look at um renting some of the rooms out, doing a bit more telehealth. Um I love what I do, like I love dermatology and love that side of nursing, so I'm not going to stop that, but I'm definitely doing more acne treatments and managing um kids with acne and referrals and you know, using being a nurse practitioner for that sort of stuff, and I'm finding word of mouth it's that's growing quite rapidly. It's just I can't charge what a dermatologist charges. So, you know, I've got to work on that financial side of the business, and it sounds terrible to say that, but I I have to run the business. Yes, yeah. So that I suppose the there you go. There's a silver lining. I'm actually, you know, working with kids and I'm working um dealing, helping them with their acne, and we're getting some amazing results. You know, so that's that's been great, and it's also made me look at how into the future, you know, what mean nursing is going to look like.

What's next for nurses living with pain

Sam Miklos 18:37

And yeah. Do you think that um, you know, if we think about you looking into the future and nurses having so many mm so many nurses out there experiencing chronic pain and um Is there a future for older nurses? What does that look like, you know, and I supp uh what in terms of the way that you've looked into the future, what are you seeing or what needs to shift to ease that next generation um into the the latter years of their career?

Bek Woodbine 19:08

I think the next generation isn't going to have the issues that my generation have had in nursing because when I started nursing, we did all the lifting and we didn't have all the mechanisms or the people to assist us or so we did everything ourselves. We did everything. And then I worked in an operating theatre and you know there were no Wardies, so we did all the moving of the patients off the beds and um so there's been a lot of heavy lifting in my career. It's not like that now, uh or it shouldn't be, um, because they've got devices and they've got lifts and you know they've got people to help. So that has made a big difference. So hopefully that younger generation of nurses have learned from my generation, the older generation, that you've really got to look after yourself and you've got to look after your back. And you know, there's manual handling skills and things like that, you know, they're set in place to protect your back.

Kate Coomber 20:05

It's hard to think about when you're in your twenties, isn't it? That's even a thing.

Bek Woodbine 20:09

But people to say, oh, you got nurses back. Yeah. We've all got nurses back because it's bloody awful. But you talk to anyone my age that is nursed as long as I have, we all have shitty backs.

Kate Coomber 20:21

Yeah.

Bek Woodbine 20:22

Horrendous backs. So, you know, uh and shoulders, that's another one. Shoulders are bad. And do you think things like telehealth and um give more opportunity than for your generation of of of nursing colleagues then that are wanting to finish out their years or I hope so, because that'll be something, you know, experience-wise, you know, I could retire but still do, you know, a day's telehealth or you know, go into the children's and do some volunteer palliative care work with Sammy or so there's some other things nursing-wise we can do, and I love the idea of telehealth. I think it's brilliant, but now, you know, you can't do telehealth with someone unless you've seen them in the clinic. So I don't know how all of that is going to work, and then you've got people constantly wanting nurses like myself to um prescribe for um for vapes and for cigarettes and um what's the other one out, peptides, that sort of stuff. So, you know, they're all illegal, and you know, I mean, I was reading about one doctor that had made someone like thirty million dollars through to you know, and they were seeing someone every three minutes. You can't you can't care for someone in three minutes. But you can certainly write a script. Yeah. So I don't know how that I don't know how that all reconciles. But I would do I would do telehealth around mm aesthetics, skin. You know, I'll I'll find something that i is legal and and works. Yeah. But it's it's exciting to do something different like that. And I think nurses down the track, it's gonna be a wonderful way of retirement to still keep a finger in, you know?

The bed she couldn't watch be made

Sam Miklos 22:10

Do you feel um hopeful for the future of the nursing profession? And do you I guess what are the concerns about the profession that you hear from your conversations on the podcast or clients that you see in the clinic? Like, do you feel hope? D is there a sense of hope for the profession?

Bek Woodbine 22:31

I think there's always a sense of hope. But do I fear for the profession? I do.

Sam Miklos 22:37

Yeah, how so?

Bek Woodbine 22:40

I and this is from my own experience recently being in hospital. Um I sat there and I watched a nurse try and make my bed. There were creases all through it. Um he didn't even bother to take the sheets off. He just, you know, he can throw them at the back of the bottom of the bed and then you just sort of do a bit of a tuck job or whatever. Like I was when I was taught to make a bed, you do not have a crease in it because you don't want a bed sore. Um, you know, we were proud of we took pride in our beds. People make beds now and talk about hospital corners. Yeah, like that was a big thing. And the funny thing was the registered nurse he was working with was watching me, watching him, watching me getting wound up. Yeah. Like I was just major back surgery and I was about to say, mate, just stop, I'll make my own bed. Like I I can't watch you do this. And in the end she took pity on me and she told him, Oh, look, it's okay, I'll finish this, you you go. And I'd looked at her and went, Oh, thank God. I said, please tell me he's not a third year and doesn't know how to make a bed. And she goes, They don't. People have they've lost I think they've lost the basics. And to be a good nurse, you've got to be up to do the basics. And that's washing, cleaning, um, making sure someone's turned appropriately when they need to be, um, learning how to make a bed properly, doing oral care. I mean, this stuff doesn't happen.

Kate Coomber 24:15

Is

A fix for the nursing shortage

Kate Coomber 24:16

it the pride that's not in the profession of being proud to be a nurse? I don't think they're being taught.

Bek Woodbine 24:22

Yeah. I mean, we were taught this stuff. It didn't all come naturally to us. There were things that, you know, we were taught to do, and you know, working in palliative care, I was taught the importance of oral hygiene and um the importance of turning someone and washing their back. You know, I did night duty when Winham Hospital was there and there was this fabulous nurse, her name was Mary, and her and I worked together two or three nights a week. And we just had the best system, and we would just start at one end and we would go all the way through and we would roll everybody, we would wash their backs down, um, you know, fix them up if they needed some hygiene stuff done, w whatever. But then we'd get to the end and literally we'd start again. But I would finish that shift knowing that every single person on that ward was cared for appropriately, like I would want my mother cared for. But it doesn't seem to happen that way anymore.

Sam Miklos 25:22

Do you think there's a cost-cutting element or it is just an education?

Kate Coomber 25:26

Is it is it not enough nurses on on site?

Bek Woodbine 25:30

I think I don't think there's probably enough nurses. I don't think education-wise they're being taught appropriately. I mean I can see a see in my mind, I can see how to fix all this shortage of nursing is that the universities are attached to the different hospitals and the students work like we did, but you're just attached to the um universities and you do first year, you just get paid first year wage, second year, third year, and you go through you we wouldn't have any issues with lack of nurses because that'd all be working.

Kate Coomber 26:07

Yeah.

Bek Woodbine 26:08

So it doesn't see the answers don't seem that complex to me. That's correct for that period of time sometimes, particularly if you've got more mature n people who wanting to go into nursing, you know, how do they then Well it cost me nearly fifty thousand dollars to do my um masters to become a nurse practitioner. Yeah. It wasn't cheap, and I had to pay for that all up front while working and you know, what take the HECs away. I didn't have to pay hex when I did my went back and did my degree. If it's that much of a shortage, don't charge them hex. Like there's so many ways around this that is to me easy, but they seem to make it so complex.

Boundaries: the generation gap in nursing

Sam Miklos 26:50

You know when you talk about then um the the younger nurses coming out and they're missing some of those skills. And I and I know you're not in working like clinically in the hospitals at this moment, but in terms of the conversations you have on your podcast and um friends in the profession, are there is there intergenerational conflict between the various generations in the workforce? Because, you know, and I guess uh we had a um we ran a session here a couple of years back where we looked at, we had I think four or five generations in the workplace and we talked about, you know, how we want to be interacted with, do we like to speak on the phone? Do we like, you know, how do we how do we approach a contract negotiation? All the way we all did things so differently, it was quite confronting for us all. Um is that conflict present in the workforce when you think about the the older matron style nursing and then the younger generations coming through that are just like, no, I want work-life balance, I I don't want to be spoken to.

Bek Woodbine 27:50

That's well, funny you say that because when I interviewed my niece Gemma, it caused huge disparity. Because she was like, you know, I work and then I go home. Boundaries. Absolutely, and I actually really like that. I think that's fantastic in the generation. Yes. Imagine if we had boundaries. Oh my god. But they have nailed that. Yeah. And it doesn't mean they're a bad nurse, it just means that they're putting boundaries in place around their mental health and their physical health and work-life balance. I mean, every other profession has it. Why can't we have that in nursing?

Kate Coomber 28:29

And other passions too. You know, once upon a time you're a healthcare worker, that was what you did, that was your identity. Whereas I think what we're seeing as well as with uh different generations now having a multi-passion life of yes, I love nursing, but I also love this, whether it's content creation or travel or or some other hobby that they have, and making sure that they carve out time in their life for those things. And that's not always you know seen positively by certain people too, I'd imagine.

Bek Woodbine 29:00

I I just remember, I don't think the intergenerational thing has changed from when I nursed and I was a young nurse. You know, I've made some great decisions, I made some horrid decisions. I remember tiptoeing around senior nurses. I rem remember very quickly learning who to pretend I was a fly on the wall and you know, who I could get on with or who I you learnt pretty quick. And I don't think that's that's changed at all. I just I think it's just a bit different. Maybe there's more of an appreciation for the differences now. Trevor Burrus And I don't think um, you know, I mean, like I I remember some of the doctors in the operating theatres were abhorrent and their treatment of nurses was disgusting and disgraceful. Um I think that's wonderful, that sort of stuff has changed because no one should have to put up with that sort of rubbish. And we did, as nurses, we absolutely did. I mean, I I've spoken about it before. I would, you know, pretend I was the wall in some of those operating theatres because I was just so terrified of those doctors, terrified. I was terrified of some of the senior nurses too, because Lord, you didn't want to cross them either. So but was that also a bad thing? It just made you like we just all worked super hard and tried not to do anything wrong so no one had noticed it. So I don't know.

Would she do it all again?

Kate Coomber 30:29

If you had your time again, would you choose nursing?

Bek Woodbine 30:31

No.

Kate Coomber 30:35

What would you do?

Bek Woodbine 30:36

I'd probably still do health. Yeah. But I'd probably do something in allied health. I say that, but I probably would become a nurse because I always wanted to be a nurse, but um I yeah, I'd I'd probably do something in allied health like speech therapy or something like that instead. Still can oh well I'm done with my study. She's going on a motorbike and I've gone to the hallway. She's got things to do. Sounds amazing. I uh m what I truly love is I've loved this platform of podcasting and um giving nurses a voice and not just nurses but allied health professionals and other people that have just it was all meant to be about nurses, but it's been very interesting how nursing has become interwoven with all the different stories that have of the people I've spoken to, you know, in tenderness for nurses, and that's what's really surprised me is that being a nurse has opened so many doors for the podcast and for this platform. And I don't think that would have happened if I hadn't been a nurse and had this people skills uh I've got from nursing. What are the big issues that are you

Bullying, respect and the cost cutting squeeze

Bek Woodbine 31:54

thinking about it?

Kate Coomber 31:54

I was gonna say the themes or from everyone you've interviewed, you know, you're a you're ahead of us.

Bek Woodbine 31:59

Bullying.

Kate Coomber 31:59

Um so talk to us about that. Like what what's the theme, what's happening from the people that you've spoken to for your podcast?

Bek Woodbine 32:09

There seems to be an element of senior nursing that and I think they're pushed from their management side of things about budgeting, cost cutting, um, making people feel terrible if they want time off, like nurses trying to do the right thing, letting their, you know, managers know that they need time off for a surgery or whatever, and then getting in trouble for it, or now whether this is happening or not, I mean it, you know, you if you follow some of those groups and that on Facebook, which I which I do, I look at all that sort of stuff. You know, is it one's person's take on something? And it's, you know, like I always say there's two sides to every story. Um, but it does seem to be a theme that there's cost cutting, um, they're replacing RNs with ENs or EENs. Um there is a lack of respect. Um and I just think at the moment nurses are really trying to f find ourselves, and we're not quite sure where we fit in the healthcare system anymore, I think. I th you know.

Kate Coomber 33:23

So a lack of respect where from From nurses to nurses? Yeah. So just between each other, just not respecting.

Bek Woodbine 33:31

Medically as well. And I think there's a huge lack of respect from the general public for what nurses do and how we should be treated. It's disgraceful how we are sometimes spoken to and um, you know, the things nurses have to deal with. I mean, look at paramedics. Every time they go out and go to a scene, they don't know if they're going to something terrible's gonna happen, they're gonna be abused, they're gonna be spat on, they're going to be you know, you've got nurses that are working in emergency departments that have been told by management that what could have they done differently after they've been assaulted by someone. I can't even comprehend that conversation has been had. Yeah. But that is that is what is happening. What could you have done differently?

Kate Coomber 34:24

Which is interesting, isn't it? From our experience with this podcast and you know, not being a healthcare professional myself. Um I sort of have the reverse feeling of meeting people, hearing stories, hearing what people do and how they care for people. You know, I'm in awe of nurses, of what they do the work that I couldn't. Um So that's that feels crazy to me to feel that more generally speaking, there might be not that sense and people don't have that respect.

Bek Woodbine 35:00

They don't.

Kate Coomber 35:00

And why?

Bek Woodbine 35:02

Because everyone's s thinks they're entitled to I think people behave in a really entitled manner now. I think manners are a people just don't have manners anymore. How about a please and a thank you? It doesn't take much.

Sam Miklos 35:16

Um if you push this down, you know, a couple of years down the road, obviously, you know, there was big spend in COVID in healthcare and a lot of hospitals have exhausted budgets and there's there is that um that need to cut costs, but what do you foresee the impact of that's going to be in you know five years time replacing an RN with an EN or it's not that ENs or EENs can't do the work. They can. Yeah, but what's the gap? There there's a gap. There's a need for all of them.

Bek Woodbine 35:48

Absolutely. You know, uh I had a lady, she's reached out to me a couple of times, but she doesn't seem to want to speak on the podcast, but I but they had worked for years, years and years and years at this nursing home, and they got rid of all the ENs and put AINs in. But how they did it, like all of them ended up like PTSD or it it horrific what happened. She wants to talk about it, but she can't bring herself to talk about it. But she has messaged me numerous times about what they all went through, and it was a big cohort, and it's one of the big um nursing homes. But that's what they've done. They've replaced the enroll nurses with the AINs. And so the patients aren't getting anywhere near the care that they should be getting by having enrolled nurses, and people don't realise, you know, they're paying for a certain level of care for their loved ones, but they're not getting it.

Sam Miklos 36:48

And

RN, EN, AIN: what's actually changing

Sam Miklos 36:49

and that's a bit of a gap for people listening who aren't in healthcare. Can you explain what the difference is between a registered nurse, an enrolled nurse, and an assistant in nursing? Because they've all got their value. Absolutely. But what are the roles that they play or the skills that they bring?

Bek Woodbine 37:06

So assistants in nursing um usually um, I don't even know if there's a course, I'm assuming there's a basic course, but it's bed making, it's bathing, it's um, you know, helping people get dressed, um, it's that basic nursing care that every nurse should have. RNs, nurse practitioners, right down to AINs. Enrolled nurses um can do more, they can do dressings. Um, if you're an endorsed enrolled nurse, you can do medications, but you can't carry the drug key. So that's for a registered nurse. So registered nurses that level up again, they just have more skills, they have management skills, they can um deal with drugs in a different manner to EENs. Um and usually, if like like you're in a nursing home, you might have a cohort of ENs, EENs, and AINs, and there might be one registered nurse on for that whole, let's say, the night shift. And she would cover all the different wards or areas or whatever that may be, and you'd have the enrolled nurses sort of being in charge of say a different ward, but that RN would be over the top of that. Yes. Clinically, a nurse practitioner is the highest level you can be, and we can prescribe, we can order tests, we can refer to um specialists, um and basic nursing care again. You know, that to me is the most important part of nursing is be able to, you know, wash someone, listen to someone, make a bed. Um if you're gonna be a good nurse, that's what you've got to be good at. Keep a keep a tidy environment. You can't be a good nurse and have crap from one end of a room to the other. You just can't. You know, you've got to um I suppose, you know, you've got to be clean, tidy and efficient. I don't know.

Who belongs in nursing

Kate Coomber 38:58

We often talk about making sure we've got the right people in healthcare and the people who are in healthcare for the right reasons, I guess. So from your perspective, who needs to go into nursing? Who do we need more of in the profession to to make sure that it is a profession to be really proud of and sustainable?

Bek Woodbine 39:21

I a lot of empaths end up in nursing. And I I get that. Being one myself, you know, we tend to feel that everyone's emotions.

Kate Coomber 39:31

We need all sorts of people. Because there are all sorts of types of nursing, right? Absolutely. Um whether you want to be a mental health nurse support. See, I couldn't do that. Yeah. Or whether you want to be in theatres. I loved that. You know, to a practice nurse in a clinic, to aesthetics, to there's so many careers within nursing that you can have.

Bek Woodbine 39:52

And they say there's where the young people now will have seven career changes. What other profession can you work in that you could actually have seven career changes in that one profession? Yeah. Recruitment, recruitment, definitely. Yeah. So it's just one of those, you know, you could go and do, you know, emergency, then go and do theatre and then do medical, surgical, then do mental health.

Kate Coomber 40:16

And so if you think about the bullying or the unhappiness in nursing, do you think that maybe people are in the wrong career in the wrong area? And if more people were where they were meant to be, there'd be more happiness, more synergy, more respect.

Sam Miklos 40:30

Or is it just the pressure, like is the bullying um been um you know, escalated in recent years because of all the cost pressures?

Bek Woodbine 40:44

I think uh like we sort of said before, what's bullying? Um you know, I think there needs to be a better definition of what uh bullying actually is. You are allowed to disagree with someone.

Kate Coomber 41:00

So yeah, so maybe, you know, you said before that you're hearing there's a lot of bullying in the workforce. I guess what are the things that you're hearing versus an and is it is it or is it uh disagreements?

Bek Woodbine 41:12

I think there's probably personality clashes. Um bullying is you know uh systematic system.

Kate Coomber 41:21

Systemic, yeah. Yeah, repetitive ongoing to one person.

Bek Woodbine 41:26

Um don't get me wrong, 210% believe that it would be going on, but to the extent that you know you might see online and that, I think we also need to build up a little bit of resilience. You're not going to get on with everybody all the time. Absolutely. So, you know, sh ask to be moved out of that ward or go work up the other end. I I you know, you're not gonna get on with everyone all the time. I mean, God, I worked in the operating theatres and those more mature nurses when I was a younger nurse, they were terrifying. But I learned pretty quick, you know, how to manage them. Like, you know, you just get in and work with them, and if they say do this, yeah, okay, I just would go and do it. I was the junior nurse, it didn't worry me. So I think people get wound up when someone might tell them to go do something or they don't want to particularly do it or don't want to be micromanaged, even though it's actually just making sure that you're an opportunity.

Sam Miklos 42:27

It's also

"We need to harden up a little bit"

Sam Miklos 42:28

an opportunity to learn. You know, it's that.

Bek Woodbine 42:30

Um I just think we need to harden up a little bit. And I know that sounds uh that's gonna probably upset people, but That's not where I thought you were going. Well, I just we're not gonna get on with everybody. Yes. And that's life. So you've just got to learn to work together. You don't have to like everybody. You should respect everybody, as long as they've earned your respect. But you know what, if you really hate it, we're in nursing, we can go work elsewhere. Yeah. Or in another area or another ward or another I don't know. I I just think we're making things tough for ourselves that sometimes they're not needed to be so hard.

Sam Miklos 43:07

And how do we um, you know, improve the I guess the levels of respect that the profession is getting from the public?

Bek Woodbine 43:18

That's a really tough one. Um I don't think it's just nursing, I think it's across the board in in everything you talk to, you know, I've got colleagues that are dentists and that, you know, if they're being treated and spoken to just as badly as, you know, um I have been in the past, or I think I think it's just people aren't being taught manners anymore. I don't know.

Sam Miklos 43:44

And it might potentially controversially get worse if you think about the interactions people have with Chat GPT and how to have this conversation. What am I right? How do I do this? There's no um like the kindness and the the warmth and the genuineness. Of a a conversation and interaction gets lost then, and then um we're interacting with these platforms about what I need to get from my you know orthodontist or my whatever and we're seeing the orthodontist is not seen as a person, it's they're seen as a service.

Kate Coomber 44:15

So yeah, as opposed to that person, the expert. Yeah. People are coming in armed with their own diagnosis, thoughts. You know, it's putting yourself in other people's shoes, I think. I think people don't do that enough of just imagine yourself in that position for anything.

Bek Woodbine 44:28

But you know, when you've got a a leader of on the other side of the world that thinks it's okay to say what he says and behave the way he does, it's not and people think that's okay to own. I mean that's that's a leader. So it it is that to me is concerning. You know? Because that's what people are seeing. So it's okay.

Where AI fits into human care

Sam Miklos 44:50

Bek, um you sit in the hot seat asking all the questions in your podcast. I d I haven't even thought about what I'm about to ask you, so that it's probably gonna come out terribly. But um what's a question no one's asked you that we should we should be asking you? What have we not talked about or that you don't I that's a that's a really tough one because there's lots What have you not shared that you that you would want to share? What is there more about your story that's because you're always asking the questions? And I guess not knowing all of your story, that's where I'm like, I don't have a specific question for you, but I'm like, is there something in you that hasn't come out in any of your interactions that you're like yeah, there's there's a couple of things, maybe one day it will.

The story Bek hasn't told

Bek Woodbine 45:48

Um I'm happy to talk about other people's trauma. I don't want to talk about my own.

Sam Miklos 45:54

Yeah.

Bek Woodbine 45:55

Um which has made me who I am today. And as an adult and a menopausal woman, they say that's when you start working through all that stuff, and you know, you do you think that those conversations help you uh work through when you have those conversations on your podcast at all?

Sam Miklos 46:17

Yeah.

Bek Woodbine 46:18

It does. It helps me think it helps me that I I know there are others, but uh it's not just me.

Kate Coomber 46:24

But I think to the guest, I think it helps them as well. Being you and who you are and everything that you've experienced will make you a better podcast host because you have an exceptional level of understanding and empathy. Um and you create such a beautiful safe space for people to share that you should be really proud of. You do. Yeah, you do.

Bek Woodbine 46:52

I I know um I knew this when I first started in the aesthetic space. I um started by spray tanning.

Kate Coomber 46:59

Yeah, that's right.

Bek Woodbine 47:01

But it was always interesting that in, you know, twenty minutes to half an hour, people would take their clothes off. And what they would share with me always blew me away. And now, you know, they come in and see me for their anti-wrinkle treatment or whatever. And once again, the the information they share with me, I sit there sometimes and go, oh my god. How did we even get to this conversation from there to there? And I've I've always found that a real privilege that people trust me enough to want to share some things. And I think sometimes people maybe forget that this is all here when they do share some information. And I've had some beautiful moments, beautiful, very privileged moments of very deeply personal things that have been shared on the podcast, and it's not lost on me at all. And I have to say it's not lost on my listeners, because it's a certain type of person that's listening to my podcast. And I know from emails and messages and things that have been sent to me that uh people are desperate to hear uh the truth. But you know, they're just they love hearing true stories and they love people being honest about themselves and what they've been through. Um so we're all three of us are in a very privileged position.

Kate Coomber 48:33

I think it just helps people feel seen too, doesn't it? In a world where sometimes people might be afraid to speak up or some people don't aren't fortunate to have any sort of circle around them. Um I guess we hope that it it gives people something to listen to and to recognise and feel validated perhaps with certain things.

Bek Woodbine 48:58

But what blows me away is um this podcast, you know, perfect um Tenderness for Nurses is heard in like so many different countries, countries I've never even heard of today. And I sit there and go, wow, you know, how fantastic that we can disseminate information about nursing that goes all over the world. And that'll happen with you guys with your podcast as well. You'll start like a bizarre little country in Africa will pop up more. And you go, wow, you know, I was actually able to reach someone on the other side of the world and give them some information about nursing in Australia.

Why Tenderness for Nurses exists

Sam Miklos 49:42

For anyone who's not listened to Tenderness for Nurses, what what did you set out to achieve when you started the podcast and what can they expect?

Bek Woodbine 49:52

So initially I was going to talk about aesthetics and that sort of stuff, and then I thought, oh, this is really boring. I don't I don't want to do that. So I made a list of people I would like to speak to and hear from. And that was the first season. Ten people I found like that. And were they nurses that you'd want to do that? Not all of them were nurses, like Nick, who owns Therapy and Support Animals Australia. She was nervous and you know, didn't particularly want to do it. It was that's been one of the most popular podcasts because, you know, and everyone still goes treat a dog like a dog. Yeah, yeah. That was Nick's big thing, treat a dog like a dog. Yeah. Um so and then I just found people would start messaging me, oh, you need to speak to this person, or this person's got a great story, or this person. So people were then coming to me, and people do have the most fascinating story. Everybody has a story. Absolutely. And I that was the one thing right from the get-go was that everybody has a story.

Kate Coomber 50:54

And they do. And so many people say they don't. And I've said the same thing. I was like, everybody has a story. A story worth listening to. Absolutely.

Bek Woodbine 51:02

You just have to know the questions to ask. And that person also just has to show a little bit of bravery.

Sam Miklos 51:08

Yeah.

Bek Woodbine 51:09

Because it is, it's nerve-wracking sitting in front of you. We doesn't seem to worry us as you know, the more you do it, the better you get at it. But for someone just coming in random.

Sam Miklos 51:17

They are they always walk in terrified and very like you put the microphone in front. Yeah.

Bek Woodbine 51:22

But by halfway through, they've forgotten that they're hard.

Sam Miklos 51:24

Yes.

Bek Woodbine 51:25

So yeah, that's that's me. There's some changes that are going to be on the platform. Um, we have also talked about um, and this is very early days, guys, um for nurses running some programs um and collaborating with these guys here. I've got some amazing nurses that want to come in and um just talk about skill sets or talk about mm you know how to um manage themselves, maybe some meditation. Um but we're working on that at the moment. Um on the website, my website now, um I've put up, because as you guys all know, I don't drink, I've put up a lovely mocktail um book for people, you know, there's a few just a few little bits and pieces that are coming up. Um so I'm constantly still working on tenderness for nurses, and um I'm very excited, so I was able to get the name tenderness as well. So, you know, it won't just be tenderness for nurses down the track, it will be probably tenderness. Tenderness, yeah. So it'll be incorporating not just nursing. Nursing will always have my heart, and it has from when I was, you know, a little girl. Um but there's going to be other other areas to tenderness for nurses. And the big thing I have I get asked all the time about the drinking and not drinking. Um that seems to be a bit of a thing at the moment though online where everyone's you know, I everyone's jumped on that bandwagon and, you know, each their own. You know, I'm I'm happy to chat to anyone that has sort of, you know, issues and that sort of thing. So um, and people do, they reach out. They I often get asked questions about how I stop drinking. That's probably the biggest question I get asked. But I also had some amazing conversations with people around gambling and the huge issues, you know. So I think those sort of issues cause health issues, which is how we end up talking about them anyway, because

Drinking, gambling and the conversations that matter

Bek Woodbine 53:40

of the mental health aspect of, you know, conditions like alcoholism and, you know, gambling addictions or addictions in general. And so we'll be covering a lot of different things. When I spoke about gambling, I I just had no idea that those apps that the kids play with, those little ones where they have to get the tokens, they're actually made by the gambling companies. Like the, you know, betting the betting ones to prime the kids to then actually, once they're of age, to go onto the betting apps. I I had no idea. So when they were talking about that, I was horrified. So they're they're physically going after little kids and changing their brain. So that as they get older they will get into gambling online. Isn't that terrifying? That is terrifying.

Kate Coomber 54:34

Look, the gamify the whole that's a whole another conversation, isn't it?

Bek Woodbine 54:37

Of course, we miss that. I'm so grateful I miss that with my kids. But you know, when my kids have kids, that's the stuff. So, you know, you guys I take my hats off to.

Sam Miklos 54:48

I just run into the thick of it in terms of parenting with all of those. But it'd be scary.

Kate Coomber 54:53

All the pressures of what they don't have and what they want, and you know, it's pornography. You know, I didn't have the the right pair of jeans, you know, now it's the phone, the app, the whatever it is, you know, it's um bigger stuff. How do you do that? How do you deal with that? Well I'm Yeah, you're ahead of me. How do you deal with that? I'm known as the strict mum, I'm told. That's great. No, that's great. I'm fine with it. Yeah. I think um I was very strict with my kids. I think it's just conversation. Like I I mean I am zero expert, but it's just we try and have conversations and even you know, I have had my son say thank you for saying no to this because now he's seen X and he saw something happen afterwards and he kind of understood now why. Didn't like it at the time.

Bek Woodbine 55:43

And he's only very young, but he can still see that, so I think it's just See when I said no for the kids, I always said to say that it was it was me because it took the pressure off them. Totally. Yeah. And they could go, Oh no, mum won't let me, I'm not allowed, like da da da. But my like they were never allowed to go to someone's place and then go to a party ever. You know, they could come back and stay at our place, but and they just I'd pick them up at there were certain things I was really strict on. Yeah. And um I'm grateful I was. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I see them both, you know, engaged and happy and doing the right things and giving back, you know, I've I've haven't done too bad. You know, you've done a lot of great.

Closing reflections

Sam Miklos 56:28

And I think it's important that that you remember that in this next chapter for you, because as much as you were like, Oh, I don't know, there's much good. There are a lot of glimmers there. There is a lot, and you you bring so much tenderness and care and vulnerability and kindness to every interaction that you have, and and I really hope that just from our conversation with you, you lean back into that because you're in the next chapter, which is a great chapter. It it's hard, but it also gives you a chance to reflect on what's important and getting on that motorbike and going in a pool and beating two years ago that wasn't a thing, you know. There'll there'll be these opportunities, but you know, the community that you've created in your podcast, they need you, your customers need you, and it's the you and the the fabulous version that you are today.

Bek Woodbine 57:20

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's yeah, it's it's nice to hear that. So thank you.

Sam Miklos 57:28

You're welcome, you're welcome.

Kate Coomber 57:30

Thank you for joining us.

Bek Woodbine 57:31

My pleasure, as always. I love it, I love coming in here, so thanks guys. You're welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Kate Coomber 57:48

We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which we meet, who for centuries have shared ancient methods of healing and cared for their communities. We pay our respects to elders past and present.