The Beckhams: An Example of How We Blame Women And Let Men Off The Hook

Headlines love a villain, and too often she’s a woman. We dive into a high‑profile family feud not to trade gossip, but to trace the pattern beneath it: the siren myth that dumps blame on women while absolving men as heroes or innocents. From crisis PR to school‑gate rumours, we connect the dots between brand narratives, media incentives, and the quiet costs of living inside a story written for public consumption. 

We talk about: 
• historic and royal parallels that scapegoat women
• weddings as flashpoints for older unresolved conflicts
• personal stories of gossip, trolling and reputational harm
• the cost of image management and crisis PR cycles
• sovereignty, values, and holding firm boundaries
• calling men into accountability without vilifying women
• practical ways to opt out of gossip and choose discernment

Drawing on years in PR and decades coaching clients through change, we explore how image management hardens into control, how weddings become flashpoints for long‑brewing tensions, and why setting limits in adulthood can look like betrayal when a legacy brand expects constant compliance. Along the way, we map the historical lineage from Yoko Ono to Wallis Simpson to modern royals, showing how institutions survive by scapegoating women and smoothing men’s agency out of the frame.

This conversation is practical as well as cultural. We share tools for resisting the rumour mill: verify before you share, ventilate in trusted spaces, and step back from threads designed to inflame. We talk sovereignty, values, and what it means to say no without shouting. We name the emotional toll of trolling and the double standards around women’s bodies, menopause, and leadership. And we come back to accountability, insisting that equality means holding everyone to their choices, not outsourcing responsibility to wives, mothers, or girlfriends.

If you’re ready to see past the spectacle and choose a kinder, clearer story, press play. Then tell us where you spot the siren myth in your world, share this with a friend who loves thoughtful conversations, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Webinar : Empowering Women Leaders. 5 strategies to close the gender gap. Join us.

Transcript

Welcome And Today’s Controversy

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Say It Sister podcast, where two friends who met way back need to talk about topics women talk about in private, but we're doing it out loud. We are midlife mothers, coaches, and women who are going through our own journeys in this strange and transformational times, challenging but also fascinating. So this week we are focusing on a bit of a gossip story when the world should be focusing on things like Greenland. Instead, we've been inundated with stories about the family strife. Our DMs have honestly gone crazy. A conversation about how we still talk about men and women and responsibility. And it kind of reminds me of the old Roman and Greek god legends where warnings were given to sons about following paths against their godly parents' wishes, or being cast out, fooled by temptresses, demons, and also the hero story about following one's own true path. But the women, well, we're never painted in a good light, and that's what we're here to talk about today. So hey Karen, how are you? And what do you make of all of this?

Media Statements And Family Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Ah, wow, yes. Well, I think we all feel like we know this family really well because we grew up with them. So it's a strange one, isn't it? Because it's like David and Victoria, everyone knows who David and Victoria are. And I actually did have a night out with David Beckham when I was 19. Um, so I have met him and I have hung out with him and parted with him and had um laughs with him. So um I've probably known more than some other people out there. Um, but I find the whole statement thing really interesting and and also really sad because at the end of the day it's a family and it's a family that are being torn apart um one way or another, and we'll never really know the truth of what really is happening. You've just got like, you know, fragments of things that have been put out. I think when someone releases a statement, they're normally just really in a bad place to have to release a statement because it's just not the norm. Um, it feels like a sort of like, you know, for this moment in time, like a break. Um and it's a also private family matter. You know, we've all had those fallouts with people that we love and care about and whether family or chosen family, and how hard it can be, and it can take a really long time to heal. Um, but it has brought up that sexist story that women are the manipulative ones, uh, we're the sirens, you know, that a man is almost like painted as pure, um, you know, and there's no kind of accountability or responsibility, and and it's always the wife or the girlfriend or the mother. Um, you know, and and at the end of the day, you know, they're all grown-ups in this, aren't they? Situation. It's all grown-ups. So I feel like we need to talk about that because we are here to talk about the feminine narrative. Um, you know, we want to have um, we want our men to have boundaries, we want them to be their own men, um, we want them to speak their truth, and perhaps that's exactly what he's doing, but the way it's been sort of positioned um feels a little bit off to me. What's your view?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Well, it's not the first time, I and I wish it'd be the last, but I don't think it will be. Um for as long as we've had well, the patriarchy, we've had this trope being um wheeled out to keep everybody in their place and to try and like we said, you know, centre-men the the hero story and then blame the women, whatever their role, you know. Um, and it's just well, I've had enough. It it's so obvious to me when everybody else, when I was reading all these comments and everybody was like weighing in with their thoughts about what was going on and stuff, and I just sat there reading them, just thinking, here we go again. Women bashing, once again, not giving men accountability or even trusting their own decisions that you know, um the comments around Brooklyn, being ungrateful, betraying his parents, or he wouldn't be in this position if it wasn't for them, absolutely he wouldn't. He wasn't, you know, he didn't choose to be put on parade and be in the public eye from the day he was born. Um, it was part of Brand Beckham. And you know, don't we all go through this stage of life where we we try and find our own identity and say, I didn't like that in my growing up, so this is how I'm gonna do it differently. Um, and yeah, I know like you have these really strong words, like he's a grown-ass man.

The Siren Trope And Male Accountability

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, I mean, I think we all have that fight for maturity, don't we, as we are growing up, and um it comes at different phases and stages, I think, in life, and um there is something about going, actually, who am I now and what do I believe now? And I think, but when something's done so publicly, you know, it has such a wide sort of rip ricochet that goes out, and when then everyone's talking about it, I mean, you know, there's gonna be people who are not gonna be sleeping for weeks as they sort out this sort of crisis that's happening for them, they'll have the teams on it. I've worked in crisis management, you actually don't sleep because things are bouncing around the world, you know, with a story like this that you know it's crazy how it sort of captured people in a way, and I think that's fascinating. Um Yeah, I f I s I feel it's probably the struggle to find his voice, his space, his manhood in a way, um but done in a very, very, very public way. And but perhaps, you know, when these things do happen in such a public way, it's probably because the lines have been crossed. Um because it's not the norm, is it? You know, like you don't normally have that and and the breakaway scenario and probably all the attention. I mean, I hung out with you know, I I was in PR in the 90s and the you know, and after that, and I hung out with three AM girls from the mirror, and they were like my best friends because we lived in this sort of time when the celebrity obsession, if you didn't have a celebrity link, it was very hard to get publicity and for your brands and and the clients that you looked after. So it was part of my world, you know. Um and even to the point where someone was chatting about me the other day and this story got back to me, and they said, Oh, she was scandalous because um somebody like Victoria Beckham, you know, would be using the GHD products and then it'd be in the papers two days later. And that was how it was, you know, and I mean we weren't making stories out, we were genuinely doing these sort of, you know, like sending products and getting feedback and stuff. So it wasn't there was no lies in there, but I mean things were reported on because of the link. And um I didn't I know I was behind the scenes, so I didn't have to face the sort of bombardment that celebrities faced. Um, and I always felt really sorry for them actually, because I feel like whilst you use the press, you're also gonna get burned by the press. And our press have got, you know, as it's been found time and time again, they've taken many unsavoury ways to get stories, including taping people and you know, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

So um chasing them through Paris, you know, um car accidents, you know, it's it it is um the relationship between the press and the newspapers, the advertising campaigns. Um, and now we are in the world of celebrity where people who actually don't really have much talent are just famous for being famous, um, and you know, the so-called influencers. But again, you know, it's not just about um if you're not being spoken about whether positively or negatively, it's seen as a bad thing. And it's interesting because there are so many similarities to this story as to what we've seen with Harry and Harry and Megan. And I've seen like things like oh next stop Oprah interview and things like that. And it's like, oh god, these are real people, and immediately I could see that uh the press turned on Megan um when she didn't want her baby's faces being shown um uh after the birth and to have like more of a private christening, and that was it, they weren't getting their money's worth, so therefore they turned and it was relentless to the point where Harry said, No more, we're leaving, just in a similar way to what um Brooklyn's had to do. But it's not the first time, you know. Um John and Yoko, people are still really vile about Yoko, who literally just fell in love with a man, and because he then chose a different life and a different interest and his passions, um, it meant that actually it came to the end of the Beatles. She didn't break it up, yeah. It was her relationship. And then we've obviously got Christine Keeler in the whole profumo affair. We can't remember the other politicians and the other people involved in that, we just remember her name because she was the seductress that could fool spies and ministers, and even Wallace Simpson and our king who abdicated. I mean, everyone knows Wallace Simpson, she was the American divorcee who brought down the monarchy. Well, she didn't bring down the monarchy, he chose love, he chose to marry the woman that he wanted. Um, and so the idea that um kings or musical kings, uh politicians, princes, uh the sons of footballers and pop stars haven't got their own minds and are simply just brainwashed fools, it's kind of like, come on, people, wake up, listen to the narrative. These are not villainous women. Um yeah, that's that's what came to mind.

Crisis PR And Celebrity Narratives

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Yeah, there's just so much to say about it, isn't it really? Because it it's it's like there's always a victim and there's always a villain, and there's always a hero. And depending on what you're listening to, reading, um whose page you are on socials, you're gonna get different views on things, you know, and and it we have to be able to determine like actually what do we think, like what's our view on that? Now, our view on that is that this is really, really complicated, and this is about relationships, and and this is about a break and a breaking away. Um, you know, it reminds me of my own wedding and and a speech that was made at my wedding by um my husband's best man, and he said, Well, as soon as Richard met Karen, that was the end of the fun that I was having. And I was like, you know, and this was in his speech, and I like the whole speech, you know, I was cringing all the way through it really because I was like, What is he gonna say next? And I kind of took a step back and thought, Well, it was that true. Well, for him, it probably was true because we fell in love, he moved in quite quickly. Um, obviously, when you meet somebody, you kind of have to curb your ways, because if you're still gonna be carried on like that, I wouldn't have been in a relationship with somebody who was out and about all the time. And you know, have he was like, Rich chose this. He was living his single life, yeah. And he was having you know, he was living his single life, but he he was wanting to meet someone and then he met me, and you know, and that was his choice, and he wouldn't have had it any other way, and you know, but yeah, in in the wedding speech on my own wedding, it was like I was like named as this person, and I was like, he doesn't realise what he said, but I know what he said, and it was like the implication was there, and I could see the people's faces in the room, you know, as you do when you're kind of aware of other people. Like people were like, you know, the the the tightness in the jaw, and I'm not you know someone who's out there. I mean, I am on social media, but I'm not living the life of someone like the Beckham, so it's kind of like a comment, and you just think I felt it, but you know what?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

And I had similar being part of the gossip or the subject of gossip um at the school gates when my marriage broke down, and people had got an image of me anyway, because I used to turn up suited and booted off to my uh corporate job where they would often turn up in their ugg boots and their their um leggings, um, and I wasn't they didn't welcome me in. I try and be friendly, but they didn't welcome me in. And so when the gossip came out about who and what and why and everything, it was all made up because I hadn't spoken to any of them about my circumstances. Um, but it was always, well, she did this and she said that, and actually, there were lots of people involved in the relationship breakdown, um, mainly me and my husband, but because he was never at the school gates, um, they they made him out to be the victim in all of it, and oh poor him, and then um yeah, they put him on a pedestal when on the odd occasion where he would have to pick the kids up from school because it was his day, and they were like, Oh, isn't he a good dad? Well, no, I'm a good mum because I do that every day, you know what I mean? So it's always that division constantly, and I I actually think it was around that time that I actively said I will not engage in any gossip ever again, and to be fair, I probably stuck to that. Um, now I can go to trusted people and ventilate a little bit and have a bit of a moan, but then it's done. Um, but I've I've never been engaged in gossip, which is why I think when I see this gossip and this, it's almost like a witch hunt in real life on all the comments, and I see it, and I'm like, I've been that person in my little world. Um, imagine being on the global stage. Um, because we are always the virgins or the temptresses, or we're the pure ones, or the evil queens, or the nasty stepmothers, and it really damages and it really hurts. Um, and like you say, it's complex.

Parallels With Royals And Old Scandals

SPEAKER_00 13:30

It is complex. Um, you know, I also know that when when we get to breaking points sometimes in in close relationships, it's the breaking point moment. So for them, it seems to be a lot around the wedding. You know, I feel like we're going into the gossipy bit here, and it does make me feel uncomfortable because I've deliberately not commented on on any of it because I just think you know it makes me feel a bit icky. But you know, the wedding was the thing that it seems to be in all the you know, like the explanations, it's all about the wedding, and I feel like in relationships we have this point where there's lots of things that have happened, a massive buildup over time, and then something will happen, and a wedding is a really good example of that. And uh bad behaviour starts to come out because people are drinking, people are emotional, um the bride and groom are carrying so much, like I felt that on my own wedding, and you're trying to make it all you know, trying to get through it all, and there's a lot going on, and then the alcohol thing is a major thing, and people start doing crazy things. And if you're at that wedding, it can be quite fun. But if you if your wedding it's how you have experience, and oh I'm echoing, and I feel like that was the breaking point, but actually there was all the stuff before that didn't get resolved, and I had situations like that at my own wedding where I lost relationships after the wedding because you know, as I went in and then had conversations with people, they didn't like what I was saying, um, but it was their behaviour, and then I I further look back and I went, actually, I'm responsible for some of this stuff as well. I have a responsibility because things happened in the build-up or whatever, and rather than address it head on, I didn't, I just continued with life, and then when things do blow up, we're like, actually, it takes two taboo life, it takes two, you know like you said with your husband, there's a break. But even if you're the one that leads the break, there's been many breaks in the build-up to that, and this is the final break. My throat is getting really tight.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Oh, let me come in and just share a perspective I hold about the the wedding topic, um, because he was very clear that there were two specific moments that he wanted to address. One was the dance which he said was inappropriate, and the other one was um the wedding dress being, you know, unfulfilled. And what I interpreted or through my lens straight away, I just thought actually, this is a man who is from this day forth creating a new family, and all he actually wanted was everybody around him to wish him well, uh him and his wife well on their new journey. But even up to you know, a couple of weeks before, and on the wedding day, it was still about somebody else, or it was still about control, and he was he's just had enough, and now he's trying to build his own life, living in a different country, um, yeah, building his own brand and his own business, yet he's still having to be brought back into family images and Christmas photos and red carpets. He's just like, I've had enough, and so for me, it's like the only reason why he mentioned those stories is to say, you know, well, it was very pointed the way that I see it is he mentioned those because that was the point where he said, I'm a man, I have my own family now, this is what I need to do to move forward. Um, and I also want to speak to the point that I think the only reason why he has become out public is what he says is there has been a narrative being spun for the family brand, which is not true. And he has done everything he can to keep it private, he's blocked, he's tried to try to remain silent until he's like, This is really impacting me and my wife. I have to speak out and put the record straight. But now I think he'll probably just go away and just live the life he this is it, it's his done. It won't be done forever because hopefully families can repair, but it takes all the family members to repair. But this is his lying in the sand and saying, It's about me and my wife now, and so I just want to celebrate him.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah, I hear that, and I also feel like there's no way he's getting privacy anytime soon, you know, like with a public statement like that. It is your voice, your words. It's like you sort of say it to sort of say, right now, leave me alone, but as you can see, there's no leaving alone that's gonna happen over that. And and this is the thing that that he will know as as somebody who's in the public eye. We do so if a celebrity does something and it's out there in the public domain, that information never goes away. 20 years' time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

In the in America searches, and it's a different the the British press are more fascinated by by the beckhams than most people. Um so I think in the British press and on our social media, yeah, it'll run for as long as the newspapers keep talking about it. But if he's not contributing or not giving any new information, over in the States where he lives in his bubble, it'll probably be a very peaceful life. Probably just like a very normal life.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, the States is slightly different, but I I I can say this because I know it, because I've seen it, and I I know celebrities who've had you know scenarios and they are still like 20 years later, like it's amazing what happens behind the scenes in and in in the world of like social media and um even things like Wikipedia. Now, we might not have a Wikipedia in five, ten years' time because the internet's changing, but if whilst there's a Wikipedia, people go in and change people's stories. And so I've got friends that have made a mistake, um, done something, they've had all the press, and 20 years later, you know, their their information about them, somebody goes in behind the scenes and changes it, and it's unbelievable. And so in the end, they're like, There's nothing I can do about that, you know, this thing is still running and it will always be part of the story.

Personal Stories Of Blame And Gossip

SPEAKER_01 19:12

That's interesting. That sparked something for me about, and you know, we we did a an episode on the We Do Not Care Club, and I think this is where it kind speaks to truth of character, um, and a lot of work that we do with our clients as well, where actually, if you are the king or queen of your own life and you are mainly concerned with who you are, what you stand for, and you know your truth, then actually you don't really care so much about the other stuff. And if you are going on interviews or whatever the thing is that you're doing, you just say, I'm not talking about that, or that's not for this conversation. You hold these really firm boundaries, or you can be consumed with your outer image because you've built that brand on your image, but he hasn't. His family might have done that, but he has never been brand. Pelts Beckham or Brooklyn, he's just living his own life. So it who knows how it would go.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

It's like speculation. I'm just sort of bringing in my own sort of background and of experience of you know being in this field many years ago for many years really and just knowing how things work. And um and he's well, I hope he's part of the We Don't Care Club. Yeah, and he will have insight to that. And I suppose when you take that, you still take that step. You're aware he, I'm pretty sure he's aware of the implications and how this stuff's you know going to impact things and the ongoingness. And then it's gonna make him I still think it's gonna make him people are gonna be like, everyone's gonna want to talk to him about this wherever he goes for quite a long time. But you know, maybe that's the thing with the truth when we speak truthfully and we just go, I will deal with the consequences of that because what I'm not prepared to do is live a lie. Um which I get, you know, I totally get that where you think, I'll speak my truth, I'll go out there, I'll do the difficult thing because it's too hard to keep living the lie. Um we've got experiences of that in our own lives, haven't we? And you just feel like Yeah. I mean they haven't got children yet, have they have they? They haven't gone down that path. There's like a whole, you know, there's a whole future ahead for for his new family and seeing where that takes him. But I I think my sense is he'll live his life and we don't know differently to the life that he's had.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Um because and let's face it, his um, yes, his wife is an actress, um, and he's got his own um cookery food brand. Um, but he've already got plenty of money behind them. Um, you know, she's a Truffs fund baby that um and her dad is a very successful but billionaire, you know, far outweighs what the Beckhams have got in the bank. Um and so I think they're gonna be fine, whatever path they do, but it's whether they want to use the media um or whether this is a line in the sand, and yes, we will find out. But I just know that there's plenty of even like royal families around the world who live very private lives. They don't, you know, they're they're good on their own, they don't need to perpetuate the the media. Um, but maybe there will be an interview with the Oprah, maybe there will be a book or a Netflix deal, who knows? But I sense that that's not coming with this pair, but we shall see. But let's just talk about um a little bit about the the kind of comments or the conversations that have been coming from women towards these women, because actually we've talked a lot about Brooklyn, but most of the comments have been about either supporting Teen Victoria um or slating her, or it's been about Nicola, and again, like you know, images of her with a sour face, or like, oh no, she's a queen. But actually, there's not been a lot about David or Brooklyn, it's mainly been about the women. So, do you want to speak to that for a moment?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

I think what was said is very damaging towards Victoria, um, even in his statements, the idea of him having to do the first dance with her and it being inappropriate. I mean, that in itself Oh, it wasn't the first dance, it was a dance at the wedding. Ah, I see, I misconstrued that as as you know, like he thought he was gonna have a dance with his wife and then his mum was there, and you know the concept of that just feels like that's how the the press have spun it, but no, that's not what the statement said. Okay, well that makes me feel a little bit a little bit better because I was like, Wow, you know, like I just can't imagine that happening, you know, as as women who've been married, it's just not. Um but I still think it's in it's much more damaging to towards her. So that's what I see, you know, when I I'm like, wow, this is you know, and then the you know, all the sort of like stuff that's then coming through of like someone dressed like Victoria dancing and all of that, and then all the you know comments, and you I just think, oh my gosh, you know, these are human beings who f have feelings, and yes, they've I think they have built their entire adult lives around the narrative and the brand, and everything has gone steered towards that, and that's why there's this sort of like idea of the protectiveness and them sticking together, um that must be actually quite claustrophobic if I think about it, because when you're just constantly focused on reputation, that's a defensive strategy, so it's like defending, defending, defending, defending. And I think even the way that sometimes she's she's portrayed on you know, other so wider social media things, like there was a whole thing that came through and it was like, you know, from the documentary that she's saying everything's fine with women, and then she said something, some of the middle comment, and then David's going, Tell the truth, Victoria, and she's like, Women around the world have you know cannot get access to sanitary products, and he's like, Thank you. And and whilst she said that and and did that, you know, it's when I see it, I'm quite shocked because I think we should never be wrapping up the truth with lies, we should always speak it as it is. Now, clearly there were three versions of that that then got I don't know how it got merged together in that one statement, but it just makes me feel like can I really trust her? Like, is she you know, and I think I have this thing with brands and companies as well. Like, are they just adapting to what's zeitgeist to what they should say, or is this a genuine real then? And I think this is where people, you know, consumers, we're all getting increasingly suspicious of each other because we're like, Well, do you really believe that? Are you saying that because that's the PC thing to say? Um, and what's the real, real truth here? And and you mentioned influencers, and I have a real problem with this because I'm like the true experts, the real genuine experts, and not getting airtime. But then you've got you know, these people with huge followings adapting, using the work of you know the true experts, um, positioning them certain way, but it's all smoke and mirrors. And so I have a real issue with that because it's not truthful and it gives the whole industry, you know, we're both coaches, we've we've been doing it a long time, um, 25 years together. You know, it's like we're not faking anything, we're the real deal here, and we've done the qualifications, we've done the hours, and we continue to do it, and and then someone else put coach next to their name, and yeah, you know, I just and it's that kind of thing that we I'm talking about here. It's like who can the real Victoria, can the real David, can the real Brooklyn please stand up? Um perhaps that's what he's done, we don't know.

Weddings As Flashpoints And Breaking Points

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Well, this is what I my intuition, my gut tells me this is the real him that stood up, and I just want to um also just salute uh Nicola because at this moment she hasn't actually come out and said anything. And so when we see things from other women who are saying, you know, oh, she's got him under her thumb, um, she's obviously manipulating, she probably wrote that statement. Like, by the way, you know nothing about this woman. You're just making up stories to fit your um your view of the world, how you want it to be. And like I said, this has happened time and time again. Um, where you know, the whether it's a brand or trickery comes out, so people fill in the gaps, and then they hear something from somebody else in the gossip or now in the comments, and they they say, Yeah, that's right, that's what's happened, and then suddenly that becomes the truth. And the only voice that we haven't heard from, and we probably never will, is Nicola, because she doesn't give a damn. She's just there being a married woman, enjoying her career, her life, being in love, and this is just noise and distraction that she never wanted. There's obviously a lot of hurt and pain going on there, which is why Beth um Brooklyn has named those couple of instances that genuinely hurt his wife. But wouldn't you hope that your husband would come out and defend your honour if he heard you hurting? And so um, so yeah, I just want to say really, women, stop picking on other women. And just remember, like as Karen said, these these comments will be in the social media world forever. And if new life uh you know things come to light, or actually like in the old days where it was like you know, the news goes away with the chip paper, your comment will be out there forever. So actually, just use a bit of discerning.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Be kind. Be kind, yes, or just don't comment at all.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

That would be a lot easier.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

And I think we've you know when we when you get trolled, like I've been trolled twice, and by men and women, and you know, and I have to think about my safety at that point because I'm like, sometimes this is I'm being trolled by people who live like 20 minutes down the road, you know, and like have to sort of let them think about my security, my daughter's security, like how nasty are these people gonna get? It is actually quite scary, and it and it you do I did lose like the first time I had a week and I was in such a state for a whole week. Um, you know, and then something had happened to my car, and I was like, Well, is this linked? You know, like my brain's working over time, and I've got friends who I can call in those situations, and they'll be like, I think you need to calm down. This is just like the way of the world now, and it's the way of the internet, and if you're it means that you're doing the right things because if you get in trolls comments, it means that you've kind of broke through to you know a wider audience. I'm like, this is just insane. Like, why should we have to put up with stuff like that? You know, yes, we can block, yes, we can delete, but it takes time, it takes energy, and it also it's it does get in, and you know, as as hard as you want to be with stuff, it gets in. Second time was much easier. Some of the comments I was like, they were so ridiculous, and it was you know, really around talking about menopause, you know, and because again it's a taboo and it's an it even though we're all talking about it, it's an issue for people, and we come back to you know, women's bodies, women's rights, women's health, um, women's autonomy and agency, um, women, you know, being true to themselves, women asking for what they need, you know, that sort of stuff, it triggers people, and it also triggers women. And this is what we're talking about here. So I think this is it'd been a really good conversation for us to sort of you know go into things and actually just name it all again. And we're gonna have to keep doing that.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah, and um the one thing that I wanted to just say before we close off this conversation is Victoria is a mother, and no matter what your opinions are, you you can have your opinions, they're they're usually curated by the press or some you know um information you've been given, but she is still a mother. David is a father, the siblings, um Nicola and Brooklyn, they're just real people in a real family who are going through a really hard time, and I know how hard it is as a mother to let go and let your children go and make their own mistakes um or go and leave, you know, fly the family nest. Um, it's hard, but yeah, we can all just be that little bit kinder. So just just think about if it was you in your family and this was going on for you, how would you want other people to respond? And I'm gonna ask you to sign off, Karen.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Thank you for listening to this episode of Say It Sister. Come and tell us your thoughts, especially if you've ever caught yourself in this narrative before. Maybe you've been putting comments on things and you've thought differently, or maybe you've had that done to you. But we'd love to hear your stories. Share this with a friend who loves these conversations, and remember, equality means seeing men as capable of choice and holding everyone, not just women, accountable for their actions.