From Epstein Files To Everyday Patriarchy

We confront the Epstein files as a lens on patriarchy, institutional silence, and the dark triad of sex, money, and power. We share lived stories, map the deny–deflect playbook, and make space for anger, grief, hope, and healing.

• centring survivors over sensational images
• updates on Maxwell’s silence and why it matters
• how rank, privilege, and status shape deference
• the dark triad of sex, money, power explained
• a personal story of early predation and its echoes
• institutional failures from grooming scandals to elites
• gaslighting tactics and the power of naming them
• signs of cultural change and male allyship
• healing with boundaries and soft power
• practical next steps and finding support

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Epstein Files
• 2:00 Outrage, Grief, And A Call For Justice
• 4:35 Silence As A Shield: Maxwell Updates
• 6:00 Centring Survivors Over Sensation
• 9:20 The Dark Triad: Sex, Money, Power
• 13:20 Conditioning And Rank, Privilege, Status
• 18:00 A Personal Story Of Early Predation
• 22:30 Institutions That Look Away
• 26:30 Speaking Or Shutting Down: How We Cope
• 30:00 Gaslighting And The Deny‑Deflect Playbook
• 33:30 Signs Of Change And Male Allyship
• 37:00 Healing, Boundaries, And Soft Power

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to the Say It Sister Podcast, the space where women's voices rise, truth takes centre stage, and silence is never an option. We are Lucy Barkas and Karen Harris Kelly, founders of Wise Women Lead and the Say It Sister Podcast. And every Friday we drop another episode, a conversation about what's on our mind, womanhood, and often just trying to make sense of what's going on in this world when we're constantly in what the F moments. And today is no different. There are so many WTF moments happening every day. We're tackling the story that has basically taken over our hearts and our minds, and that is the Epstein Files. For us, this is absolute epitome of the worst atrocities of patriarchy. A system that uses men, women, children, and the planet as just mere objects, a means to an end, and places power and control at the centre of all its interactions and secrets. I am both lost for words and swirling conversations in my head all at once. But in those moments of clarity, we see that the patriarchal system for its worst, driven by power, sex, and money, and using women and children for its own satisfaction and exerting power over all of us. We also see that the behaviors of the men in power, the ones where, you know, there's been conspiracy theories around for years about these, but now they're not conspiracy, they're truth. Whether it's from Andrew to Mandelson, Elon Musk, Gates, Trump, Clinton, you name it, even the Dalai Lama and Richard Branson have been named, although no evidence has come against them. But it's all now in the public domain, and I know you're feeling it too, Karen.

SPEAKER_00: 1:58

I am, and as you started talking, I hiccuped. And it's like my whole system is just like, you know, like in a state of um distress, you know, the hiccups, and then I'm now a bit goosebumpy, so I feel like there's a lot shifting through, um, even at the beginning of this conversation. I feel like there's just this call for justice that is like worldwide, and I'm really shocked that there is only one person in jail, and that person is a woman, Giselle Maxwell. I just I'm like, how while she does deserve to be in jail for sure, why is she the only one? I see it's a moment of fuel for women to come together, for our male allies to stand with us and say, we have to change. No, it's not just a narrative, it's not just a story, this is reality. This actually happened. And this is the moment to say, no, enough. This is no longer allowed to happen. And we know this has been good, these things have been going on since you know, time began, probably, but it's no longer on our watch, not in the world that we live in when we have awareness of what's happening. Because at the heart of all this is this evil web, and it's using children, and that burns all of us, and it's creating a legacy of pain and shame, I want to say, because the shame is totally on them, yet, shame, as we know, lives on in all of us, and we carry that, and we um it's so incredibly toxic, it makes me feel slightly sick. Um, so I feel outraged. I'm also very sad, and I feel like the systems are failing us, and I've been getting the most incredible responses over social media. You know, the responses to my post, which was all about the victims on Instagram, has really overwhelmed me, and I've had so many comments, and I started off responding, and now I can't respond anymore because it's just too much, and I'm saddened that it takes something like this for us to actually show up and actually, you know, push for change. But unfortunately, that's the way the world is, and at least we are showing up, and it's this anger, this unification, and it's also there's a lot of courage because people are saying, you know, they're there, they're showing up, and they're speaking their truth. Um, we also had some trolling, but the comments were so unbelievably ridiculous. I didn't respond. A couple of women responded, they didn't even go in, didn't feel it. I just thought, I don't care what you think. Um, that's a first for me, so I'm celebrating that. Um, and all of this has shook us and it's struck a chord. So let's dig in, let's go a little bit deeper.

SPEAKER_01: 4:31

Well, I just wanted to just uh point out one thing before we go deeper, and it probably layers on to what we're going to chat about. Um, this morning I turned on the the news um and Gelaine Maxwell has appeared in front of the I don't know, is it in the UK it'd be the parliamentary committee? Um, and on each and every question she chose to um no comment, you know, take the First Amendment and say silent, and it just was really poignant. I have no sympathy or empathy for her whatsoever, but I thought that she is using the only thing that she's actually got for self-preservation, which is her voice, and she has chosen to stay silent to protect herself, um, because she knows that she is just one cog in a very huge machine, um, and it's just so frustrating that you know it one woman, like um uh Virginia Giffray was the one who exposed this first and foremost, and then there's another woman sat on the other side who is protecting, um, and it just made me really sad. But the one thing that women do have that can make a change is using our voices together, and so I just thought it was a poignant moment because it was for like fresh news this morning that she was back in the news. But yes, I'm ready to dig over to you.

SPEAKER_00: 5:55

Let's go into the victims because you know, when I was looking at what was going on, I was like, I do need to say something. This is a matter of clo really close to my own heart, but I I do not want to post those pictures of like Andrew, like with her in the background with the awful white top and the brown tan. It was like, I don't want to be posting that because it that for me makes me feel so physically sick. Now, when I look at the victims, that also makes me feel sick, but at least we're talking about what happened to them, and so that was really important for me.

SPEAKER_01: 6:27

And seeing the women today as survivors, not it in the images while they were being abused or victimised, but actually today as the women who yes, they are sad and they have real pain, but they are standing together, which gives them real strength. Um, so yeah, I I don't want to see those other images either.

SPEAKER_00: 6:47

No, and and also the the support and the some of the comments that were put on there. I mean, I can't remember how many thousands of comments are on that are on there now. I was like, the love that was coming through, like it brings tears to my eyes, and we had like 151,000 um it's been viewed that many times, but the comments were like it was like they were speaking to these women as their own family, and it and I was like, oh my god, like they're actually standing for something that we all know. We all like if you're a woman, you know about sexual assault, it's part of our it's part of our lives. We've grown up with it knowing about it. Um obviously there's different levels of it, but I really, really now feel that this is so incredibly mainstream. It's not one in three in the UK, it's not one in four, um, you know, if you put in in America, it's so much more than that because most many most women don't report. So we know this stuff, and it sits inside us, and that makes me feel deeply sad. But I'm also, you know, like it it was just humbling and heartwarming for me. Um, I didn't expect to get such a huge response. I didn't do it actually for that. I did it because I was like, I can't stay silent, I have to sp I have to show something for these beautiful, beautiful women. Um, so that was my intention, and then the rest of it is kind of rippled. But it's something about us honouring the victims without sensationalizing their pain. For me, it's like that's really about sending them lots of love and showing their faces and where we can, using their names. Um the other story that came out was around the supermodel, Karen Mulder, who ended up, you know, going to in, you know, she was basically um institutionalized, which because she told the truth, and how many times has that happened, you know, in the past? It's like that was the place where women were sent to um when they started to say, I've had enough of that, I'm not accepting that, when they started to show their anger, you know, the it it that is systemic, and so I remember her, I remember her from like growing up and seeing her and her beauty on the catwalk, and I just think I cannot believe that there's so much when you dig into it that was so much that we still don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

But do you know what? Um I posted, but then I noticed so many other women were posting. Um, please tell me she's okay now, or does anybody know is she okay? Um, because obviously we can look back at oh god, that was awful, but also it's when the sisterhood comes through and says, But what about now? Is she getting the support that she needs? And nobody's able to answer the question, but it's just that feeling of wherever you are, we're with you, we care, we support you. And I I I was incredibly touched and moved by how many other people came out and said that it was almost like sending her a healing message of we still care.

SPEAKER_00: 9:36

Oh, I know, and like some of the things were like, you know, sweet girls, and I I'm getting really emotional over here because when when you see them as women, you forget in a way, even though they had their pictures, these were young girls who were sent into the lion's den. Um, you know, and the trafficking that happens, and this is still going on in the world, you know. And I I I I have a big thing around disappearing children and people, like it's something that really disturbs me. Um, so again, it sort of it brings up so much. Let let's go into it from the place of this like dark triad, this sort of sex money power. Um, you know, it's very hard to understand why people do these things. If, as women, generally speaking, I think it's very hard. Like, why would you do that? And especially to some something that is so innocent. Yeah, at the centre of all this is this power. This, like, if I've got the power, then I'm in control, I hold all the cards, and you do what I say. And it's like I think that is the c the kind of at the the heart of everything. Um, who's got the power? I need the power, you know, and it's just preying on the vulnerable, and it's about inflating that unhealthy ego, that you know, idea of what we all want to do is feel safe. Yeah. And I feel that often there are these, you know, like people will come in and they will take that authority seat, and people think, Well, they're in authority, therefore, I need to feel safe, so therefore I will trust that person. Actually, sometimes it's the worst thing we could do.

SPEAKER_01: 11:05

So I think it's almost impossible to know what life was like before the patriarchy, because it's what been 10, 12,000 years. Um, but it there was a a life before then. So when we start thinking about um the sex, money, power, um, or the dark triad, um it's almost impossible to separate yourself from it because we we don't know another way. And so, as a really small example, if anybody listening has ever been promoted um or given a position of authority, so your rank and privilege has increased. Um, and that might be that when you got married um or you got a promotion at work, or you maybe came into some money, got a pay rise, suddenly you feel different. Um, you might feel more confident, you might feel like you have power over others. Uh, people get to call you, whether it's missus or doctor or whatever the thing is. Instinctively, our ego grows. So that's really at the the essence of it. But then there is a choice about how you use that power, that money, that influence, and that's where unfortunately we are all conditioned to, in this patriarchal world, to um honour those who are either the sexiest, the most beautiful, they they have no other virtues other than their appearance or how they use their assets, um, or they um have that, you know, we always say like growing up, we all liked a bad boy because there was something about being chosen by him. Um, and that's the sex, it's that control that we have, and again, it's with that power. We all are conditioned from a young age to respect our elders or our more seniors, uh, don't question. And I particularly had this um from my boomer parents. Like, well, I had my one side of the family who is he's really against authority and power because he had bad experiences growing up, and then I've got my other side, my mum, who not like hugely practicing, but she had all of those things that you've got to uh be respectful of your elders and always be polite to the teacher and respect for your doctor and always assume that it's male. So there was this conditioning in me that um, and the same as all of us, that we should respect anybody who has got some rank, privilege, or power. And then if somebody turns up um driving a smart car or is wearing the right clothes or gets a promotion, um that that money aspect, automatically we're told that we should respect them all. They're kind of special, so it's just knowing that actually in our society we we are there to respect people with sex money power, even if they're absolute bastards, excuse my French, but that's the reality. But then when you get them all together and they try and hold or grow their status, then they start getting into all of these like narcissistic and Machiavellian behaviors, and it others them, so they feel like they're the elite, and all the rest of us, whether they're children, the poor, people of other colours, genders, sexual orientations, well, they're others. We are better than them, so they don't even see us as being on the same level as them, and that's how it gets then really sinister that we then become tools or toys or just objects for them to play with. And I think once you see it, you see why this circle, this web has like gone across the world with men and women in society who are basically social climbers who were trying to protect their own status.

SPEAKER_00: 15:04

Yeah, that's when my head's gone. Yeah, I know, and and it and it's it's a good it's a good way of explaining it. I I want to talk about like so something happened when I was 11. Went to a party with um my best friend's older sisters, and so we went to this party, and there was a man there who was there with his pregnant wife. Now I was 11, I reckon he was about 40. He was giving- You're already feeling a bit sick thinking, where's this going? Yeah, um he kept giving me orange juice. In the orange juice was vodka. So I'm 11 years old, and I'm starting to feel a bit strange. So I don't know how much vodka he gave me, basically, I've no idea. But I went upstairs, and I remember going upstairs, and he was with his wife in this other room, and he was like, I just remember him's his energy was almost like trying to get her to go to bed or something. Now I could see because the door was open, and the bathroom was here. So I walked into the bathroom and I was thinking everything was spinning. Went to the toilet. When I opened the door, he was blocking the door and he went in to kiss me. Now, this is a big 40-year-old guy. I remember he had a bald head, like a patch. Yeah, I feel sick, disgusting. And so he was walking the door, I couldn't go anywhere. Um, and then luckily for me, my best friend who has has always been such an intuitive person, even at 11, was like, something's not right. She came upstairs and she said to him, and I remember it, and I was really quite drunk, but I I can remember this crystal clear. And she said, What are you doing? And he said, Oh, nothing, I'm just making sure sure she's okay. So we went so she said, She's absolutely fine. Um, so he went back into where his wife was, who was pregnant, who was lying down, who was in the next room, who clearly knew something wasn't quite right. She must have known she was sober. We went downstairs, I threw up all over the dining room, and I mean all over the place. So we we left, we got a taxi back, I got deposited at my parents. I was legless by that point because it was really hitting. Um, my mum and dad were like, What happened? And there was no follow-up, there was no consequences. Now I was just at a party with some other people, you know, vulnerable, young, should never that should never have happened, but it did happen and it does happen. And you know, it it's again that sort of like that guy in control, he's always already got the wife with the baby in the belly. Like, where's that going? Um, preying on someone who is innocent and and spiking her, right? So um really the police should have been called, if I'm being honest, to say this man spiked my child. Now, nothing would have happened, but it's that call in, isn't it? And I think this is the situation where I just think, and what that does is it places a seed inside where you go, you know, like who can I trust? Um, am I safe? Clearly, I wasn't safe in that situation, so perhaps that could happen again. You know, at 11, it's not really something you want to be dealing with. And I I think as I grew up, as women, we're like, well, if I don't use my sexuality and take control of my sexuality, then people are gonna take control of it anyway. So I may as well own the fact that I'm sensual and you know I've got curves and I'm growing up. So that was kind of my story. Like as I got older, you know, I'm talking like a lot older. Um, I was like, well, I'm gonna own it now because clearly enough people are gonna try and take it from me, so I'll own it anyway. And I became like quite consensual.

SPEAKER_01: 18:40

We were in the also the the girl power, you know, the the third wave of feminism, um, you know, the the 90s and early noughties. So we were emboldened, we had other women also showing up using their sensuality and sexuality. Um and so it wasn't abnormal to to almost like own it, own it so that others couldn't take it. And so I'm I do feel in a way quite privileged that um I was able to grow up in that period because every girl or every woman has got an experience not as extreme as yours, which is horrendous, but we've all been approached by that whether it's that uncle or or a friend of your parents, or being wolf whistled or hassled walking home from school, we've we've all had it. Um and thankfully now it's it's being named as this is not okay. And um I think like when it really brought it into its forefront in the the UK was around the Rotherham grooming gang. And this is not about any ethnicity, um, this is actually about institutional power, sex, money, because actually the children that were involved in that were the most vulnerable. They were the ones who were living in the care system, they didn't have parents looking out for them, um, and they were preyed upon. But the worst travesty of it all was the people who were supposed to be looking after them, the counsellors, the social workers, the schools, the education, they all knew what was going on, but they actually chose to ignore the children. And again, this is them not rocking the boat, they don't want to rock their political position or their jobs or be under investigation. So they went into again looking after their own power and their own um money situation, and actually then just throw these girls to the walls. Um, and we see it time and time again, and so yes, Epstein has like put it on a global scale, but actually it's happening in our homes, in our local parties, um, our communities, in our cities, and actually, it's the institutions that actually none of those people who turned a blind eye or stayed silent or didn't whistleblow, they've either retired with a nice healthy pension um or they got away scot-free. They're still in those roles today. And that is what makes me so mad and raging because none of this is new, is it? We we know this happens all the time. You've got stories, I've got stories, my daughters have got stories. Yeah. And that's why I'm just like, oh, we've got to use our voice, we've got to do things differently. And and I am raging. Um, I can feel it growing within me, because it's never gonna stop unless we stop it.

SPEAKER_00: 21:35

I mean, these are conversations that I have at the school gates with loads of other m mums who are like, you don't, you know, don't let them on this app, don't I mean not that Katalina has a phone, but it's very, very easy to track kids these days if they are, you know, online. It's unbelievable to me. So I I and I had a this actually in a business this in a business conversation. So these are the conversations. That we are all having, and it isn't like if I'm gonna celebrate that, it's almost like they're not really pushed under the under the rug. You'll have people that want to talk about what's going on, you know, the serious conversations such as like these crimes, and then you'll have people who just don't want to talk about it, who are like, I can't go anywhere near it because it's too disturbing, and and actually I'm in survival. So my form of survival is to block it out and pretend it doesn't happen. Um, and then you've got the ones who are like, I need to talk about this. Did you know? Did you know? And have you heard? And this is what was going on. So, you know, we've got these, we live in these two different separate worlds, and I think as women, as leaders, we need to be able to know like how to approach that and how to, you know, fit into that, you know, because we I don't want to be making people talk about things that they don't want to talk about. Like that's not my vibe. Um, and at the same time, I don't want to stay quiet and silent on this issue because clearly there's too many touch points, um, even if there wasn't any touch points, it's just uh it's just wrong on every single level. And I feel like when it comes to women and children and girls, it's almost like we've been so downgraded, but without consciously, like without us realizing it in some situations, we've been so downgraded that it's like so secondary. But if it was happening to men, and I know that men have also been trafficked and groomed, that's been coming out with the Abercrombie and Fitch, you know, incidents that happened there. So this isn't just just a woman thing, it's much, much bigger than that, but it's still got this sort of like downgrade situation that happens, and that is the thing that that also needs to shift for me because it's like, hold on a minute, we are human beings, um, we are wives, we are mothers, we are business leaders. Like, when did we become so unequal? And I think this the answer to that is we always have been, at least since patriarchy came in, because women are there for men and for the purpose of men. Um, I want to read something out to you out as well. I'm like going for it today because I just think if you can't half say something, um, there's a reality with that, and I'm also very, very aware of if you say too much sometimes, it can be very off-putting for people. So trying to sort of like hold the the line of that because I don't feel like we have to overshare everything. I think we can we can be very conscious in how we go around having conversations, is my point. I think that's really important, otherwise people switch off and go, don't want to have that conversation. That's just too much for me, and they shut down. So, so this is some this is an email that I received in 2017 after my sexual assault uh from somebody that I knew very, very well. Um I I couldn't hold I couldn't hold it in anymore. I'd kind of done six months of silence and I just had to like let it rip. So I emailed this guy. This is what he sent back to me. Um I've I'm just gonna say ex thinks it's you that need that needs the help, as do I. We are actually insulted that you are trying to claim I tried to or had sex with you. That's just not true, and actually it's libelous. It doesn't even stack up. You must know that. I know you've had a tough year with your infertility problems, but that is no reason to suddenly start trying to bomb my family. We have children and I won't tolerate this. I think you are the one that needs help, and I would urge you to seek it, ASAP. I think it's best to cease communication from here on out. Please don't contact me again and leave my family alone. And I I when I I read I kind of dug it out again and read it yesterday and I was like, ugh. I mean there's more to it than that, but that's kind of the the subtraction, you know, of somebody doing something so bad to you, and then when you call it out, the gaslighting, um, blaming infertility, you know, like the story of the response, you know, and that's what happens when someone calls something out. I would and also you're the crazy one, you need help. Yeah. No, I would never make something like that up because quite c clearly I have too much to lose. Um, you know, I was engaged at the time. It it just like I I had too much to lose to and actually I did lose, I lost a lot, and I lost a lot of friends and stuff around as well. So, you know, for me it was like and I was also extremely ill, so I ended up being tested for leukemia um afterwards because my body just went into overdrive, it was awful. So, you know, this isn't for me, it's like wow, you know, but this is what we go through, you know, this is the response often. It's like you, you know, deny, deny, deny, which is what we're seeing in the world. Um, there's either no comment or there is a comment like that. And it and I think, you know, so as I'm seeing this stuff happening, I'm like, yeah, I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_01: 27:01

Well, it's almost like there's a playbook, isn't there, that um that they are raised with uh whether it's you know, how do I get out of being told off by the headmaster or getting into trouble with dad at home? Well, let's just deny, let's blame the the younger sibling, or it was the other kid at school who did it, and then they get away with it, and it's almost like they've learned how to just deny, deflect, blame, shame, but I I'm okay. Um because yeah, we see it all around the world with anybody who's in a position of any kind of power, authority, or has got something to lose, they play they play from this playbook. But the interesting thing that is happening now is that now the statement is we believe her, and it may mainly be the women who are writing that statement, and there are some women who still think that they're just fame seekers or gold diggers, but actually it is changing. And um yesterday I was reading um, so in my area, they have um some people in the police force who are actively going out jogging, and they've um they're wired up to a response unit. So every time that they are either cat called, harassed, or whatever, you know, um attacked, they have got response crew there and then, and then it's either prosecute or re-educate. And I was like, I went into the comments because I'm like, oh, here come all the misogynists, um, here come all the uh you know, what about men? And actually it wasn't, it was I'm so glad you're doing this, or this is my story, or this is why we need this, well done police force, or we believe her. And I was like, wow, things are changing. So there's a bit of hope there, and it's like the messages you you saw on your um Instagram, the messages around this, yeah, let's have a little bit of hope because things are changing.

SPEAKER_00: 28:58

It's interesting because the first comment I got was from my old boss, and he said, I am ashamed to be a man, and I just put on it, like, and I said the shame is on them, and yeah, and then I sent him a message like the day after, and I said, Thank you so much for that message. You do I don't think men realise that when they support us and they they believe us and they say like I don't want him to feel ashamed about something he hasn't done, it's not that, but when they show up for us, it means so much, and it has such a gravitas to it, and you know, and and because it it's like oh wow, you know, like and I know there's loads of amazing men out there, I talk about this all the time. You know, so many brilliant men who are so supportive and so on side and who I adore, who I who are like my sisters, just happens that they're men. Um, and I'm so grateful for them because otherwise I would be like scared to leave the house, I think. And the vast majority of people that I meet and see, you know, I see kindness and care. Um but it doesn't take a lot, does it, to sort of, you know, make us focus on the negative because the normally the crimes are so awful that it it kind of takes away that beauty and that love and that um companionship and the hope that we need to feel. So, yeah. So I want to say if there isn't any men out there listening to this, when you show up for us and you say something that is like poignant and supportive, it my God, does that heal? It really matters, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:29

We need allies, we absolutely need allies. Um, to call out the the behaviours of their friends or of their sons, of their own parents, uh work colleagues, but equally just to send us messages saying we stand with you, we support you, all of it matters. Um, and I do feel like there is something shifting and it is changing. And I think that stance of we believe her. When you all of the stories that came out of Me Too, I mean Me Too was just a phenomenal movement. Um, so I think that was a spark, but it was also on the backdrop of the Jimmy Savile um scandal investigation where someone who had all of the sex power money was there operating in plain sight and fooled everybody. And then we we saw the dramas and we heard, you know, the the real um stories. And we're like, ah, okay, this this isn't make-believe, this isn't a one-off, this is like large scale. Um, and so you know, um, Sarah Everard, um, and you know, that there's so many high-profile stories that actually to say this doesn't happen or we believe him, it just doesn't sit right anymore. And so, yes, thank you to all of the victims who've had the courage to speak up because you are part of this changing hearts and minds. Um, thank you for telling your stories and to the journalists and the filmmakers who want to tell these stories, um, because again, it is changing hearts and it is changing minds. Um, and thank you to you know, the people brave enough to like us. I mean, it takes a lot of courage to be able to come on um and speak about this stuff and about our own personal stories, but we do it in service of our listeners, but also making the change and also it releases our shame, doesn't it, when we talk about our own personal experiences.

SPEAKER_00: 32:23

I think it is never gonna get easy when there's just a point, and I think for me, like there's so many deep breaths on the journey from 2017, it's like take a deep breath, okay, and then we go, and then sometimes I just take a deep breath and I don't, you know, I don't need to talk about this stuff all the time, it's just not like that. But when when it is relevant and like you say, of of service, then I I I do, but I'm very, very, very conscious and very aware um of the impact and how that how things might land. So it's not something, you know, like I can do this on on here with a podcast. You don't just go to school games, hey, I was raped once.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

How about it?

SPEAKER_00: 33:05

You know, it's just not it's not that and I it and I know that it you know it has an impact on on the p the people around my family and thing as well. So I'm really, really conscious. And I'm you know, the thing I do want to say for anyone who's like listening and goes, Oh god, I'm not I've been through that and I'm not okay. It definitely gets easier. And the level of healing that I've done with it and work and like you know, what it un kind of uncovered in my life, and the level of it, and then going in off and doing that healing work, and you know, just like unlet layers and layers and layers and doing it all, and then now I can sit here and you know I'm quite I'm balanced with it. I yeah, I can feel like the anger and the frustration still, it's still there, but I can it it's so far, it's much further away from me. Um, and I you know, I always knew it's like when something happens to us, it's like why did that happen then? Like what why? What what what was that you know, like we go into the why, don't we? And we want to understand why and could we have prevented it and was it our fault? What what signals did we give off? La la la, you know, like a you dissect you dissect things that happen to us with that are traumatic sometimes. Doesn't really help with the healing, it's more of like trying to work it out as to you know how could we none of this was your fault. I know, and then there's that process where you go, you know, that and it's like it's something that the brain does, you know, that's just how we're wired. We're wired to survive, we're wired to sort of try and understand things that sometimes we'll never understand because it's far too complex, um, and we can lose energy there, but it's part of the process, and that's okay. And then to sort of like come out of that and just be very sort of you know, yes, it happened, and yes, it changed me, and yes, it's made me who I am today. But there's it's also made me such a powerful individual, such a powerful woman, and there's something that I'm playing with this year around this soft power to be able to call things out and speak up, but to do it from such a grounded and balanced, and I'm gonna say the word healed place. Yeah, um, there'll always be some things I'll need to work on behind the scenes, always, and I'm okay with that because that that makes me human, but there's also this really evolved um p person in me, this strong woman who's like, you know, I am scared of stuff, but I'm I'm also not scared of things. Because a really weird, weird sort of um contrast that I hold. I am scared of the things happening to my daughter. That's where my fear goes.

SPEAKER_01: 35:39

But when it comes to me, I'm a much more like and I think well, it's that old phrase, and I I probably won't get it right, but it's lead from the lesson, not from the pain. Um, and I think that's what I hear from you that the pain is more like a little ripple now rather than the raging volcano or or the devastating. So the pain it's it's distanced, but the lessons are really strong, and that's where the courage comes. Um now we are gonna have to bring this amazing conversation. I've it's really it's helped me because I needed to be able to talk about what's been going on. Um, and I hope it's helped you, Karen, and also the the listeners at home. Um, we will be doing a follow-up episode, uh, which is about well, what can we actually do? Um, because it can feel quite you know disempowering when it's just more and more news, and you think we can't change this. Um, so we will explore what we can do for ourselves, for our own families, and for the wider community in the world. Um, so make sure that you subscribe so that you don't miss that um episode. Um, have you got any closing words before we sign off, Karen?

SPEAKER_00: 36:54

I think if there is this conversation inside you that needs to be had, find an outlet, found find someone that you can talk to. There are so many helplines. Um but find a person, you know. You so I know you sometimes say find your dog or your cat or whatever. Like you can also speak to your pets, but but definitely have the conversation and and don't sit there in silence with it swimming around inside you because we can't heal if we don't take help. And part of that is the talking element, you know, the the talking therapy. We know this podcast has healed so many parts of ourselves. Um, that's one of the reasons why we do the podcast is to sort of come back together and have a conversation and hopefully help others. So just know that you're on a journey, and if you really, really want to make some changes, and that can be in your own relationship with yourself, you can you can make that happen. But you're gonna say one step after the other, is what I'm going to say. So find a person, um, call the number, um, reach out.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

We're here for you. Um, text, message, email, you know, um you can uh find us on Wise Women Lead or follow the hashtag say itsister. Um you will find us, we are available. Um but with love we send out there to everybody. Until next time, goodbye.