How The Manosphere Hooks Boys And Harms Girls

We name how the red pill manosphere feeds on low self-worth and turns pain into a performance of power that harms girls, boys, and families. We share what we notice as midlife women, why smartphones and algorithms make this harder, and why integrity and inner work are the only way out. 
• misogyny and male dominance rhetoric showing up in schools and social media 
• Gen X “have it all” messaging and the hidden expectation of traditional gender roles 
• young women choosing not to settle without a true partner 
• grooming dynamics of podcasts, porn, influencers, and algorithmic content 
• loneliness, grief, trauma and abandonment beneath the bravado 
• pseudo-self-esteem and the addictive chase for likes, money and status 
• practical antidotes through parenting boundaries, community spaces and real role models 
• integrity versus pyramid-scheme promises in coaching, spirituality and hustle culture 
• the principle that no one is coming to save us and healing is a personal journey 
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Transcript

Empowerment Versus The Manosphere

SPEAKER_01 0:31

We are here to help them to be empowered, to make powerful choices about their lives, and to raise amazing sons and daughters. And here we are with a counter-ideology that wants to promote both men and women's low self-worth. Old gender roles and really unhealthy images of what it is to be a real man or a real woman, real woman. We're here to challenge that. Lucy.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah, hello. Um, do you know what? We are two women in our midlife, um, and we absolutely see through the BS and the facade. And, you know, we remember when we were kids, uh, we were told that if boys were mean to us, then obviously it meant that they liked us. And now we know that's absolute BS. But, you know, what we see now is absolutely vile hatred uh towards women, even when we put stuff on our socials, um, the the vileness of the comments of these trolls or these incels, um, and then you go and look at who they they are, and they're just everyday regular blokes, which then calls us back to the whole Giselle Pellico thing. They are literally there amongst us. Um, you know, and we know that in even in our children's schools, they are being plagued with this male dominance rhetoric because these kids are seeing it from the age of 10, 11, as soon as they've got a smartphone, and they're then going to perpetuate that and being the cool kids by giving the female teachers a load of um grief, basically, and just saying, you can't tell me what to do, or know your place, woman. And this is this literally happening in our schools right now. And I think back when we were told that we could have it all, you know, that was the the Gen X kind of 1990s, women, you can do it all and have it all.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

And I think and you can also be men. I think we were told we could be men.

Gen X Promises And Hidden Roles

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Oh, absolutely, and also it was the the new age man who was there seen holding the baby. I've got that Athena image right in my mind, you know, and you know, I'll I'll keep that image. Um, but you know, it was it was a real time of liberation and freedom and hope, and it was like cool Britannia and all that kind of stuff, where we're like, actually, we can be it all and do it all, but there was still this absolute expectation of these gender roles. We could enter the man's world, but we've still got to keep our women's role, we've still got to get married, have babies. Um, and then we've like got to this point, and we're now educating our girls to say, no, you can have some of it, you can have part of it, you don't have to have any of it, or you can have all of it. It's absolute choice, and this is what is now getting really worrying with this red pill incel manosphere, is they are pushing against this because let's face it, women are becoming more successful. You know, some of the girls are saying no, I don't want to settle down, or at least not yet. Um, and they are blaming women's choice for their loneliness. Um, and it is impacting all of our lives. And we know, you and I, we can see behind the bravado. I think a lot of uh women in particular can, and quite a few men, they can see behind it, but women are really talking about it, and we're thinking about solutions, we're we're thinking about what we can do. Um, so yeah, that's my that's my rant so far.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Well, there's a lot to take in on that, isn't there? And I think, you know, I think when we were younger, we didn't necessarily challenge the family and children. It was almost like you got to a certain point, you would meet somebody, you would settle down and have a family. Like that was just even though we were like, you know, out there living our lives and we had careers and we had dreams, the it kind of the family element slotted in somewhere into that dream.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, we weren't allowed to give that part of the dream up, we weren't told that that was a choice.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

It wasn't really something that I even questioned, to be honest. I always felt like I wanted that. So, you know, that sometimes I wonder and I think, well, was that was that just because that was societal or did I really want it? Um, and it's a question, it's a question I still have, you know what I mean? And I have no regrets though, that's one thing for sure. Yeah. So I'm happy that I have made the career and the family work. But it has come, it has come with a lot of challenge, it's not been an easy ride, and I think that's what the younger generation, I'm going back into women here, are seeing is like the impossibility of how do I keep the career and how do I make the relationship and the family work. And actually, if there is no um potential father, husband, boyfriend, partner, whatever you want to say, in there that actually could really, really be a good partner, then they're choosing not to.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah, and that's causing problems. Yeah, because you know, girls, we've always known, mature more quickly than boys. Yeah. And so when you're in that, you know, the 20s and you're dating, the the girls are, or the young women are a lot more mature, they're already, you know, laying down the foundations of the rest of their lives, while the the boys maybe not so much that they might be going, you know, to the purple with to the footy, or still in a very selfish mindset. And then you've got these videos, these podcasts, books, you name it, who are saying, um, no, it's your right, you know, the the women should be submissive. And then you've got the the women or the young women saying, No, I see all the red flags now, I'm educated, I see it. And we've just got this complete clash um of ideology that's out there, and yeah, it's it's getting dangerous, but equally, I'm so glad of Louis' um Louis Thoreau's documentary, and also when adolescence came out, and that was like you know, the huge talking point, because there are lots of men and fathers out there who don't want their sons to go down this route and they don't want their daughters to experience this. So it is creating a change, um, but right now it's still everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Yeah, let's go into the you know, like the insights that we've had from watching the programme and from having conversations and from who we are and what we do. Now, we know that being a teen is really hard, and we all remember that. Now we're we obviously we're girls, so we girl coming at we're coming at it from another point of view, but uh I mean I'm just thinking about my own life. But I when I was 15, I had a boyfriend who was 19. He had a job, he had a car, he was absolutely gorgeous. And I went out with him for about five years, I think. And I knew I wasn't gonna settle down with him, but i there was no way I was gonna be dating. I mean, dating's a big word, isn't it? But like going out with somebody who was in my class at school, because when I looked at the boys, I didn't see anyone who there that could be a boyfriend. Now, recently I uh somebody from my school life, one of the boys from my class sent me a message on Instagram, and he was like, Oh, you were always so sophisticated, is what he said. That's how he remembered me, and he's such a great guy anyway. And so we had a little bit of like backwards and forwards, and I was like, God, it's so interesting to see how people view you like as sophisticated and mature, and I was like, and I always was I don't I wouldn't say I was sophisticated, but I was definitely mature, and so you know, again, how much of that is training, how much of that is was genuinely me, I'm not quite sure, but I was already growing up.

Dating Gaps And New Red Flags

SPEAKER_00 8:19

You were already you were in in an adult relationship because you were with somebody so much older, so you were you were already immersing yourself in a world that was older than your school years, but as long as you felt emotionally ready for it, not an issue. Whereas, yeah, this lad wasn't in those spheres, so he was acting like a normal, probably 14-15-year-old lad.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

But we didn't have we didn't have back then, you know, this whole um these influences, and we didn't have the phones and we didn't have access to things that were obviously steering young boys. So, you know, I'm just sort of putt trying to put myself into the field of this of my life, but we lived in very, very different times, and so now these you know young boys are being groomed ultimately. That's the way I see it.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

It's a grooming it is absolute grooming.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah, and if there is I mean, a part of me goes, where are the parents? Where are the parents? How do the parents not know? Um Yeah, and and I can't I actually can't question that because our answer it actually, but it's more like we've got this social media influences, it's so toxic, and they're basically telling these young boys how they need to behave. And beneath it all, what we're seeing is really deep grief. Grief that is old, I would say, from their childhoods. And I suppose when you're you've you've had a lot of hurt in your life and you haven't turned into that hurt or done the work, it's very, very easy to sort of turn that pain back out and actually look at ways to sort of hurt other people. The ones that are being hurt, I would say, are minor minority groups, um, the boys that are being groomed to go into this, you know, way of living, and the girls, and obviously the parents as well. So there's a lot of people that are going to be hurt by this. Um, and but for us, I think the thing we really wanted to name was that the fact that this is about pain being disguised as power.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And it's it's it is seductive, you know. There's these bros who are parading around with um, you know, really sexy women, uh fast cars, living the life, you know, um having all their other bros around them who adore them, and they are chatting online on their lives, you know, getting this fake friendship. And these young kids are looking and seeing, I could do that, but what they're not seeing is like you say, underneath there's a lot of pain and loneliness that they haven't healed. So they're saying, Come be like me, my life is awesome, but they're only seeing what they want to project, and let's face it, every single young boy, young man, um, like us as teens, they're trying to figure out how to be popular, how to get the girl or boy, um, how to fit in, how to belong. So if they're starting to hear their mates at school use this uh misogynistic, homophobic, racist language, and then they're going online and seeing these bros who have apparently made it and they're awesome, these are the role models that they're looking at, but it's all just smoke and mirrors. Um, and yeah, you you ask the question, like, you know, where are the parents? The parents are doing their bloody best because as soon as your daughter starts getting to year six, maybe when she gets to year seven, she's gonna want a phone. Yeah, you're gonna want her to have a phone because she's gonna be getting to school um herself. Her whole social life is gonna be on that phone because that is where they hang out because kids don't go and play in the street, they don't go and knock and call for kids anymore. Um, and so you can't escape it. Well, you can, you can just have an absolute ban and it'll be the better for them. But emotionally, um, when they're saying, But oh my friends, you want your kids to fit in. Yeah, and it is just so dangerous. So the parents literally are doing their best, that they are aware, but I don't think until some of these documentaries have come out, they've really seen just how toxic it really is in those rooms.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

I'm even hearing of like parents, not at my the school where my daughter goes, there are parents they're picking up children from like the primary schools, seven so let's say seven, eight, and nine. I'm I don't know what the actual ages are. And when the kids come out of the school, the mum or the dad gives them each a phone. Now, for me, I haven't seen anything like that, but I've had things come through in the chats that are around phones and gaming, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, like can we not go down this road? I guess I must be that annoying parent. I'm like, carry your pigeons only, is what I always write. Because I feel like you know, if if we do go down the phone route, there's not going to be anything, it's not gonna be a smartphone for sure. She will not be getting a smartphone. We're pretty pretty solid on that one. So she's gonna have a phone that that is a basic phone because there's just no way I want to open her up to that world. Um, I feel like you know, if we go back to the manosphere, what I actually saw was abandonment, violence in the home, poverty, I heard stories of suicide and homelessness.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

That's what for me that's what I saw when I watched it. I saw all the bravado, I saw the aggression, I saw the blatant sexism, misogynistic behaviour, um, I saw all of that as well. But underneath, that's what I saw, and I just thought this is this is super, super sad. And actually, if we were gonna tell the stories properly, that's what we should be talking about.

Phones Grooming And Parent Panic

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, and you know what? When we were growing up, there were a lot more, there was a lot more support for young people. There were youth workers, there were youth clubs, there were places that we could go and hang out, but obviously austerity has come along, slashed all that. So, you know, we know that there are gangs, there are county lines, there are, you know, manospheres, there's all of this going on. Um, because these these boys are trying to figure out where do I fit in. Um, and so that's where as a society we have to come together and say, right, how are we going to fix this? If the government isn't gonna fix it, um, what does it take? And yes, it might be to say, you know, to our schools and to the other parents, we're making a pact, we're not gonna give our kids these phones. Um, it might be setting, you know, I chose to do scouting because I thought, right, I need a positive outlet for my girls to be able to grow confidence and grow skills. Um, I know plenty of dads who have taken up being a football coach for their local team so that their kids have got that um outlet. Um, because without the societal structure, these boys, unfortunately, they they do get into the hurt and pain. And so when you talk about the the bros who were making it big, actually, yes, all of their stories were about pain. And um, yeah, they they had trauma in their lives, and all kids will have some kind of trauma, but it's about how safe and what support are they getting in their lives, and yeah, if you can create that stability, these boys won't need to go down that route. Yeah, and I think that's where as a society we're missing out.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

And I think it's that is the next insight that we had, which is really about feeding on low self-worth, because being attached to a phone, algorithms, hits likes, the money, you know, watching the money going up. Obviously, you could see through the program that when Louis was going on the shows, you know, things were they were getting even more traction and more sort of stuff coming through. You know, it's it's almost like it's like I know, you know, like I've worked with a lot of rich and famous people, and I see the addictions to certain things, like the attraction and the addiction, like the need to be loved, the need to be liked, the need to be approved of, um, the need for so much money. I've also met a lot of people like that who are so incredibly lonely and ill, actually, underneath. So there is this like illusionary thing of like, look at my life, I have all this stuff, um, look at the beautiful girl, even though I disrespect her. But actually, it all feels really, really lonely and quite cheap on the inside. Um, we've both been on our own journeys with that, with like success and money and materialism, and like I've got all this, I've got it all, but I'm not happy on the inside. We know that now because we are like, you know, we are in our midlife journey, so we understand that. These are kids that don't understand that, you know, and it's a little bit like how women get pressured into beauty as young girls. Like if I've got the perfect skin and the perfect hair, and I weigh the perfect size, you know, that's what women are sold, that's what the girls are sold, then I'll be happy. Well, this is exactly one of those things. So if I do, if I follow these bros, um, they look like they've worked it all out, they're successful, I'll be happy, I'll fit in, I'll be one of the, I'll be part of that, and I'll feel like I've got something that's important. But it's ultimately pseudo-self-esteem.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

So it's yeah, and do you know what? I I don't actually hate the message that they're giving the young guys that you can create your own life, you can achieve anything you want. Um, what I don't like is the way that they then say, and to do that, you've got to hate on everybody. Yeah, you are the supreme one, you are the dominant one. Um, you're not a real man unless you do XYZ. That's the bit that is the problem. The the starting point that you know what, we're all broke, we're all trying our best, we've all got our issues, and the only person that's gonna get out of it is you. That, if they just stopped there, would be an amazing message. It's all of the other stuff that they do for clickbait to get the followers, to get the money, to get them then subscribing with their playbook, that's the bit that is the real issue.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

And that's then goes back to the system. Because if we are selling hate over love and hate is the currency, and hate is the thing that you know, like it's like adrenaline, you know, like it's like watching extreme sports. You could go get that from watching extreme sports or watching people doing crazy stunts on their like um skateboards or whatever, you know, like there's enough of like adrenaline-fuelled activities that are not about hating, you know, any other human being where you could get that source from and actually, you know, really get into it. Um, but we are talking about a system that is ultimately promoting hurting other people to get by. Now, I think you know, we talk about we go back to the patriarchal conversations that we always have. It was always hidden before.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Now it's very, very open. It's like you're gonna get you're gonna get here by hating on women, by treat by showing your power. You're gonna get here, and that's what's gonna make you successful. Whereas before it was like, we'll just hide all this.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

We'll hide the triads and the control, we'll hide it, and we'll but that's ultimately what's happening. Now the masses have got on board with it, and they're still being used as puppets because they're still, they're still basically, there's still always gonna be somebody who's powerful and somebody's is perceived to be weak. And who's got the power, who's got the fire, who's got the money? And it's this kind of thing that's out.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

That's the problem. The weak people um they look at everybody above them and say, I want that, I must be really low self-worth, I must have really, you know, I've got really low self-esteem because I'm not as good as that. So who can I suppress to make myself feel better? And that's every marginalized person out there. Um, it's just it's a rigged game. Um, and that's where we need to be having those conversations with our children, with our brothers, etc., to say, you know, you see that the game is rigged, you see that the stuff that you're coming out with is based on hate, let's talk about it. You can't tell them they're wrong because obviously, in their mind, they've been brainwashed to say, I'm better than you, you don't know. Um, so you've got to start engaging into conversations and saying, right, you know, what are your beliefs? What are you hearing? Where does that come from? And start then having that rational conversation. And often it's like, so do you see your mum like that? Do you see your sister like that? Or if if one of your best mates spoke about your sister in the same way, you know, what would you do? Yeah. And it's that kind of like trying to show them how absurd their thinking is, but you have to show examples rather than just then meeting the hate with the hate, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it is that thing like boys need real role models, men who are present, men who excel, men who are gifted, whatever that looks like men who are guide, men kind, yeah, men who cry, men who love deeply and openly, men who love their mums, their girlfriends, their boyfriends, their sisters, you know, it's as simple as that. It's so obvious to me, but you know, and girls need girls and women need to see this too. Yes. And that's really the simplicity of it. It's not the world that we're living in right now, but it's the simplicity of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

I I don't know. I I do think we it it's not all that there's there's this microcosm which uh is going into our young boys' minds. But a lot of the let's just say our girls they are seeing good male role models, hopefully, not everyone, but they are they have got good male role models. Models in their lives where hopefully they get a cuddle from their dad. Not all of them are pedos, not all of them are assaulters. So there are enough decent good men around to be able to soften that. And that's why, yes, this is a problem, but actually, if we focus all our time on the problem, we don't actually see that there's a lot of good parenting and a lot of good systems and families out there. And this is exactly the reason why the girls are turning around and saying, My dad doesn't treat my mum like that, so why would I go out with a boy who treats or who says those things? And this is where the the chasm gets bigger. There's just going to be a lot of lonely um boys unless something comes in, people, society, community, the government, everything comes in and just says, Come on, guys, let's detox you from this stuff. Um, let's show you another way. Um yeah, I I I refuse to think that it's hopeless.

Pain Disguised As Power

SPEAKER_01 23:02

No, and and I agree with you on that. And I think, you know, for me as someone who was married, um, you know, I Rich it was funny because my dad, when I was growing up, was very active with me. He did so much with me actually. He would go and take me places, he would always pick me up. To be honest, he still does. I was out recently and I said to the doorman, I said, Oh, I'm he said, Are you alright? Because I was waiting waiting on. I said, Oh yeah, just wait for my dad to pick me up. And he went, Your dad? I started laughing because I realised how silly it sounded because I'm nearly 50. That my dad's stopped coming to pick me up from outside the pub. Um, but it's well, he's a real man. You know what I mean? But and I then I was like, How nice is that that my yeah, that my dad, I'm nearly 50, and my daddy's coming to pick me up from the pub. Um, and Rich was still inside, and then he was getting he was saying goodbye to some people, and he came out, and so we both off off. We both went, and my dad picked us up, and I was like, I'm kind of like living my life right now, and it's a beautiful moment. Um, but he was there and he was very active, he was very present. He did so much, he would take me off to the weekends, he'd take me to the markets, which I didn't actually pursue. He was present, he was present and he was present. He would also like do the cooking and mum and dad shared the cleaning. So I had this like very sort of you know, Spanish dad who was quite macho in his way, but so soft and gentle, and you know, share they shared everything and and then So why wouldn't you choose that for yourself? You know, that just makes sense. Exactly. And I think this is the message, isn't it? That you know, when we are active and present with our children, and we're we're whether that is it might be somebody else's children that we're active and present with, it might be like you with your volunteering, you know, that children see that there is love and care out there, it's really, really important. Um so that's what was coming up for me as as as you were also talking, that we show up fully for children. It's interesting. This m when I pulled a card this morning, I did one of my cards, and the card that I got was guiding children, and it says, You are good at helping, counselling, and healing children. Use your skills to help children now. And so, as we're talking on this, you know, here today, it's like this is actually about children, yeah, isn't it? It really, that's what we're coming back to. These boys, these young men, um, the influencers who were doing it, they're still young children at heart. I don't think they've evolved yet.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

It's I I've had a memory that's come back, and and this is about a grown man who um, and this was probably about two years ago, he got divorced um and was only with his kids, you know, the every other weekend, maybe one night in the week kind of thing. And he was living in a one-bedroom flat because obviously he'd left the family home, the divorce was going through, um, and he was really resenting giving money to his ex-partner to pay the mortgage, uh, to put a roof over his kids' heads, and he was angry. Um, and that is, you know, the reality. Some, you know, as you take two incomes and one house and you then split it, everybody in a monetary sense is poorer. But he was seeing it as this is my money, this is my that's my house she's living in. And it was all about um all it was all money and ego, and he was like really hurt. Um, and he had clearly been watching some of this content online because all of the stuff that he was saying, like, what have women ever invented? Uh women uh just want to pick men, have babies, and then screw them over. And I say what we've invented babies. Yes, absolutely, and the internet and the coding that you're watching this stuff on. It's just like, yeah, we created what we're doing. Why didn't Louis say that? You know what? They called you. Yes, that's all he needed to say, wasn't it? Yeah, he created you, the ego. Go on. Um but but it he was, yeah, this guy was absolutely then absorbed into this hatred. And I remember I was sat in a pub and there were um a load of maybe 20, 22-year-olds um who are like our younger set, and then people our age, and we were all just saying to him, You've got this wrong, you know, the way that you're talking, it's not healthy. Do you disrespect us? What you know, and and even like the the partners of these uh women were saying, Come on, this is just horrible. And anyway, um, we've all naturally distanced ourselves from him because he just was so in it. Now, two years later, thankfully he's found his way out of that um because things are a lot more settled. So, yes, it is about the children because we can hopefully influence them, but it's impacting the men um who are feeling dejected and low self-worth. But it all comes back to money and ego is the tool. Um that and actually, these I don't know whether he ended up buying the products from these people or going onto the Tate's um courses online and handing over money, but that's all it is. It's just a blumming pyramid scheme saying you can have what I have, give us£50 a month, and you can have what I have. And it's all money and ego, and actually, what your father represents is that actually it's about kindness, it's about being present, it's about protecting your loved ones, it's about um experiences, everything that money and ego can't buy.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

It is about honour, I think it's about honour, I think it's a good respect, and I think it's about integrity because both me and you are self-employed, I've seen this happen in the spiritual domain, and I've watched you know people in my peer groups, you know, go off and take this sort of model and sell spirituality as enlightenment and abundance, and it's always made me feel a bit icky. Oh yes. And just because I because I feel like we can really help people to open their hearts, to do deep work, to really like you know, know who they are, show up on purpose. We can do all that work. Well, you can't say to somebody, and you're going to be rich and famous, and um, you know, that you'll have the most amazing abundance ever in your you know that you could ever imagine. Like, I don't feel like we can actually promise that there's no snake or and I just and for me it's like I I want people to come and work with me because they're like, you know what, I need to do this for myself. And often people get promoted and great things happen and they meet the love of their life and all that stuff, um, and they have a baby or whatever, or they don't, and that's good for them, you know what I mean? And and it creates all this amazing stuff in their lives, but I don't sell that because I feel like I don't know. I'm not sometimes they just find peace in their life, yes, and that is brilliant. Yes, and so exactly you know, so there's always something that people say to me, like, Oh, I love what you do, but I don't really know what you're selling. And I'm like, I struggle with it because I go, yeah, because I don't I I don't really want to sell the stuff that people are gonna go buy.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Well, come on, let's go hire um a plane that never takes off, get some pictures in there with our like our glitzy life, and just say you can have this if you get coaching. It's it's just so fake. But again, our honour and our integrity means that you know we would never do that because we never tell people what to do, and I think that's the difference. And yes, I've been um taken into some of these um spiritual um or new age healing stuff, and again, it becomes a cult unless you really believe in this, you're not one of us. Yeah, which is things are failure.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Don't ask questions, yeah. Exactly. It's setting people up for failure, and then they have to come back and do the next course, or you know, like it the there was more integrity back in the day when it was like you would actually buy a book and there would be stuff in there and you could do the processes, but they they never sold you the lifestyle, they sold you the journey. I think that's what I'm realising. Like, I sell the journey to people, but it's their journey and they're on it, and I'm and they have to do the work, and they have to do the work, and it's not gonna be handed out to them for sure, and actually, it's gonna be a little bit messy for a bit, and all the stuff that we do.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

That takes us nicely on to the next point, which is no one is coming to save us. And I touched on this earlier when I said, you know, there's a good message there for the the young people that no one is gonna come and save you, um, but it's that it's that part about the journey, only you can get yourself out of it, and it never comes from a pace place of money, ego, hate, division. Yeah, the only thing that is gonna save you is getting clear on what is it you want, where do you want to be, how are you going to get there, and how are you gonna look at yourself in the mirror every day. And this was what was really powerful about the um the Louis Through documentary was right at the very end, it showed that HS Tiki Toki with his mum, and he was still just a little boy.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Um, because actually, behind it all, he just wanted his mum's love, he wanted to respect her. Um, actually, what was really he he was probably loving the fact that his mum was there with him and spending quality time, um, because actually that's all that matters that the people around you are still there. Doesn't matter whether you've got a million in the bank or whether you are, you know, going hand to mouth, if you've got the people around you, then to me, my view of the world is you're a success.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

I also think that this was probably highly much more manufactured than we think in terms of the production around, you know, the the programme. And it's always good in the edit, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, no, it is, and and it's more like you know, the production team. I mean, this is Louis Through, he's absolutely you know, he's huge. So he's not got he's got really great people working there pulling this together for him. He's also obviously fantastic as well. But it's really like I'm pretty sure there will have been things contractually that they had to do. And I have seen comments where women have said, but where were the women's voices? And there wasn't enough women's voices. And it looks like the conversations with the women in their lives were kind of um a little bit through the back door, you know. It they weren't certainly weren't the central figures in the stories, were they? And there was a lot of uncomfortableness about that from what I was picking up, you know, from the actual influencers. So there was, yeah, so there's that piece, but I'm pretty sure that the the production teams would have said, we need to speak to some of the women that are involved, and that will have been contracted, and so they had to do that um to a certain point. So that's what I was I'm sensing with that, because they want their stories to be in there, but they're not the central figures.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

I I also think that we we have to just take it for what it is. It was an hour and a half TV. It was a documentary. If it had been a series of you know, six, eight documentaries, they could go into right, let's hear about the women's impact, let's go and talk to the youth workers, let's talk about the people who've ended up in um extremist groups as a result of doing this. Let's look at the people who um took this pill and their life is worse because of it. Um, there are so many complex angles. So when I hear people say, What about the women's voices? Well, me and you are here talking about it. It's given an avenue for women um to speak and to have these conversations, it's given angles and permission for the parents to speak about it. So I I don't I don't like this like, well, what about ism? Um, because we're here doing the work. It's it's it's an avenue. And if we don't show the uncomfortable one-sided truth of things, how are we ever gonna go and learn about the other side?

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Absolutely. Let's get back into that. No one's coming to save us, you know, because I know that in the times of my life when I've been in the deepest pain pit, I'm gonna call it a pain pit. It's the word that's coming up. Like, I'm talking the soul, I'm talking miscarriage, I am talking hit and run, um, accident. You know, I had I knew that I had to do my own deep work. I knew that no one was gonna come and make it better for me. Like, you cannot you cannot fix your way out of this. You also can't go, oh, this happened for a reason. And now I have changed. Like, no, like there is this deep, dark, dirty pit that you go into to do the like, oh my god, this happened to me. Well, how did this happen to me? Why did this happen to me? Why do I feel awful? How long will it take? Will I ever recover? Like, all of that, it's messy, and it can be quiet sometimes because we're in our cave doing the work. I just knew for me there was no pill that was ever gonna like take it away because it's no playbook, no playbook that I was going to have to do this work. Now, people did come and show up for me, and I did have support and guidance, and they were the right people. I can look back at each and every one of them because for me I'm going back, you know, like it's weird, isn't it? Actually, when I look at it, it's my 30s, my forties were like a lot happened in those 20 years that were like really deep, you know, and I had to go face it. And then in doing that work, I had to face stuff that was further back. Because as you start to sort of open up, things start to pop up, and you're like, Oh, there's that, there's that, there's that. So doing this work, but so people came, people arrived, I met new people, I evolved, I became a coach, la la la. But then people also left and people left my world, and I let them. And for me, that's what pat empowerment is. It's like just to be like, I can take charge of what I'm going through, I will do the work, it doesn't matter how long it takes, people will show up, people will leave, I'm good with it all. Like, not good with it all, but there's just something in that that makes you go, I can do this, and even when I don't think I can, someone will arrive.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Do you know what though? I don't I don't know whether we'd in our teenage years or in our early 20s, whether we could have done that journey. Um but there does come a time where you start seeing patterns, or you look at your life and you think something has to change, or what's the learning here? Um, so that I mean that still makes me worry about these young boys who are seeing this content, who are hooked on porn, um, who are getting into gangs and things like that, because actually they can't get out of it by themselves. Yes, nobody is going to save them, but when they're children, oh yeah, you know, you can see the grown-ups here. But let's hope by the time they get to their 30s and 40s, they will do the healing and then they will then heal the next generation. Let's hope because that's that is the thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:50

You know, as children, we absolutely need the adults to show up for us, you know, and and for things to be and the right systems and all of that. That absolutely has to happen. But there is just definitely some because I feel like things happen, you know, young earlier on in our lives. Um, sometimes they happen to us, sometimes we are the ones activating it, but things happen and we have those experiences and we can't handle it in the moment, and no one can. Like I don't know any child or you know, young adult who can handle it.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Yeah, they haven't got the skills, they're not developed.

Do Your Work And Closing

SPEAKER_01 38:18

But what I know about my own journey and from the journey of other people that I've seen is that whatever you need to heal, you will get the right lessons that will open you up later on in life as well. So later on in life, you get the something happens, you unfold it if you choose to. Otherwise, you're just gonna keep keep getting given the same things, and that later and there's a point when you go, Oh, there's a pattern here. Like, this is the fifth time that's happened to me in my life. It's the same message, it's the same truth. Am I gonna go do that work now or not? Like, that's how I've sort of arrived.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

And then I was Well, we need we need the men to go and do this work. And I always remember um during the uh lockdown, I was listening to the Dare to Lead podcast, and somebody had cut um Brene or her sister up, and she they started like getting really angry, and she just shouted out the window, do your work, man! Do your work, and then just drove off. And and I think this is the bit like whatever age the the men are at young boys. We need to be there at their aid, older, they need to do their work and save themselves, but just know that there's a whole village and a community out there who are willing to help them and support them. And on that note, we're gonna close out now. Because we always talk far too long. So, over to you, Karen.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

So, our message today is that we have to do our own inner work. No one is going to save us. The marketing of salvation, whether it's political, spiritual, entrepreneurial, is just noise. And the real work is listening to what feels right on the inside. Because that's where true integrity lives. That's where that healing begins, and that's where we find real freedom. It's not in the perfectly packaged promises, but in the quiet strength of knowing that we're enough and that we're worth doing the work for. Thank you for listening to Say Sister. If this episode resonated, share it with a friend. You may need the reminder that they are not alone. There's no quick fix, but there is power and truth. And together we're learning to lead ourselves one honest conversation at a time.