%20(7).png)
Leadership In Law: Growth & Leadership for Law Firm Owners
Leadership In Law™ is the podcast for law firm owners, managing partners, and attorneys who want to build stronger firms and become better leaders.
Hosted by Marilyn Jenkins, founder of Law Marketing Zone® and a digital growth strategist for law firms, each episode brings practical conversations with accomplished attorneys, law firm leaders, and industry experts.
We explore law firm growth, leadership, marketing, AI and legal technology, hiring, culture, client experience, communication, operations, profitability, business development, and the future of legal practice.
If you're building a law firm that can grow without depending on you for every decision, Leadership In Law™ gives you practical ideas, real-world lessons, and proven strategies you can put to work in your firm.
Powered by Law Marketing Zone®
Leadership In Law: Growth & Leadership for Law Firm Owners
The Secrets to Thriving as a High-Achieving Woman with Jo Stone
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Life in a high-achieving role often leads to stress, burnout, and questioning one's path. In this enlightening episode, Jo Stone, founder and CEO of The Balance Institute, shares her story from executive burnout to establishing a fulfilling career focused on helping other women navigate similar challenges. Through a blend of personal anecdotes and professional insights, Jo provides a deeper understanding of what it means to truly succeed in life without compromising mental health and happiness.
Throughout the conversation, we dive into Jo’s past experiences in the corporate world, revealing how societal expectations can lead to pursuing dreams that might not align with one's true self. She emphasizes the necessity of reevaluating what "having it all" truly means and encourages listeners to embark on their own journeys of self-discovery. Jo introduces listeners to her "triple P trifecta" concept, addressing how perfectionism, procrastination, and people-pleasing can derail high-achieving women. She emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and actionable strategies to overcome these challenges.
This episode is packed with practical tools for creating boundaries, fostering self-care, and implementing a mindset shift that encourages women to confidently own their space in the workplace. Tune in for this empowering and insightful conversation, and take the first step toward redefining your success! Don't forget to subscribe, share your thoughts, and help us spread the message of balance and fulfillment in life and work!
Reach Jo here:
https://www.balanceinstitute.com/book
Season 1 Episode 50
Ready to level up your law firm marketing? Book a FREE Discovery Call with Marilyn Here: https://lawmarketingzone.com/bookacall
Leadership In Law Podcast with host, Marilyn Jenkins
Powered by Law Marketing Zone®
https://lawmarketingzone.com
A full-service Digital Marketing Agency helping clients increase Leads, Cases, and Profit by getting their digital marketing right.
Subscribe on your favorite Podcast listening platform!
Like, Share, and Review us!
#leadershipinlawpodcast #leadershipinlaw #lawmarketingzone #marilynjenkins
Welcome to the Leadership in Law podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins . Cut through the noise , get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership . In each episode , we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you , from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team . We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies and hard-won wisdom . So , whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner , the Leadership in Law podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice .
Speaker 2Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast . I'm your host , marilyn Jenkins . Please join me in welcoming my guest , joe Stump , to the show today . Joe is the founder and CEO of the Balance Institute , who guide high-achieving women in finding balance , fulfillment and clarity in their daily lives . Established in the wake of Joe's own brush with burnout , the Balance Institute provides ambitious women with the tools to reclaim their power and create a life of success on their own terms , without the sacrifice , through blending neuroscience with ancient wisdom , holistic practices and a nurturing community to fast track transformation for lasting change . Joe was recently named the Executive Coach of the Year 2024 at Corporate Visions , corporate Coaching and Recruitment Awards and has also taken out titles of the most transformative executive coach 2024 and best entrepreneur coaching best of Australia's small business awards in recent months . Wow , I'm excited to have you here , jo , welcome . Thank you for having me . Absolutely , gosh . Okay . So let's just tell us a little bit about how you got started .
Speaker 3Yeah , I had a very similar trajectory to many in the corporate world . I rose quite quickly within my field . I was a marketer which many lawyers may know was the coloring in department , but it does require degrees and masters , believe it or not so progressed relatively quickly and had two young children , built my dream house from scratch which is very much an Australian thing but found that , despite all the accolades , all the success you know , I became a chief . I had an Asia Pacific role . I was on a not-for-profit
Introduction to Leadership in Law podcast
Speaker 3board , despite the running I was doing triathlons at the time .
Speaker 3So on the outside I looked like I had everything , but I was miserable on the inside . I was constantly guilty . I was burning out . I was constantly guilty , I was burning out . I was pushing myself harder than anyone else could ever push me , and so I did the only thing I knew , the high achiever way and I blew up my life . I thought you know what ? This isn't working . I'm going to quit my job , I'm going to sell my house and reduce debt so that I've got more financial freedom . And all this happened when I wound up in the hospital with a suspected incurable autoimmune disease . It was my body's way of saying enough , you need to wake up . You cannot push me like this . You cannot deal with lack of sleep like this .
Speaker 3And so that started a very long and painful journey of rediscovering who I really was , because after doing all of that , after selling my house , starting my own business , the feeling was still there and I realized that it wasn't the job , it wasn't the industry , that it was me .
Speaker 2Okay , self-realization .
Speaker 3Absolutely Very much . That , you know , kind of meeting dragons on the hero's journey and that sort of pit of despair and realizing that I actually have to change myself . I have to redefine success , I have to stop comparing myself to everyone else and I have to build a deep belief in myself and rediscover who I was , because I was chasing what I thought were my dreams but it turns out they were more other people's dreams . I was trying to have it all according to someone else's definition of success , you know we've run into that with social media as well .
Speaker 2You know people think , well , that person's got it all . Look at how , you know , everything's working out for them . Look at all the business they have , Look at how all they have and not really realizing that social media is a highlight reel . You'll never see the bad part .
Speaker 3Absolutely , and you'll never also see how somebody's feeling . I know many people who have millions and millions of dollars in the bank and I've had many clients come to me and on the surface you think what do you have to be stressed about ? And yet on the inside they feel empty . They are constantly exhausted and they know that they're not where they're meant to be or this isn't the life they're meant to be leading . But they feel too far in to you know they've invested too much to blow it all up and yet , invariably , something often makes that happen . Whether it's divorce or whether it's you'll be passed over for promotion .
Speaker 3I've worked with many lawyers who were on the partner track , who become partner and then get to this point of going okay , this is everything I ever wanted and I've got here . And I thought when I got here I'd finally feel like I arrived and I finally would feel like I could now relax and take my foot off the pedal . And now I realize , oh God , it's now a whole nother level , and now it's just beginning , and now I have to go even faster and even harder , and I don't know how much longer I can do this with the sacrifice that it's currently taking .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , there's a lot to be said to be home for dinner instead of working in 10-hour days .
Speaker 3Yeah , and you're trying to meet billable targets and never seeing your kids . And particularly as the kids start to get older , they make comments about why is mum always working or why are my parents never around , why don't you ever come to my recitals or my concerts or these things , that you start wondering what's it all for ? Why am I doing this to myself ?
Speaker 2Yeah . Nobody on their deathbed said I wish I worked more .
Speaker 3No , no . And nobody ever says you know , I wish I made partner three months earlier than I did , or whatever . You know , if it's going to happen , it's usually going to happen , but it's going to happen on your terms , in a way that you can say , yes , I've achieved what I want . And I'm all for women achieving their careers and getting whatever success they want , but it shouldn't be at the expense of your personal life or your health or your sanity .
Speaker 2So , with that in mind , can we really have it all ? And you know what is the truth about word-life balance . How did it work ?
Speaker 3out for you and how would you suggest people work on that ? Well , I , everybody always says that you can have it all , just not all at once , and I think that's a myth . I call BS on that one . But what I have found is that you need to redefine what your all is , because all according to social media and society is to if you're a parent , is to work like you aren't a parent and parent like you don't . Work is to be a 1950s housewife , is to be a v vixen in the bedroom , is to be the boss in the boardroom , is to be a supermodel , and that's all unachievable . So it's defining what really matters to you , what success means to you , what is important , and when you've defined that on your terms , then you can have that all .
Speaker 3But you can't have the all that society gives you , because somebody else , is all possible somebody else is all , and so you will chase it and you will think that's going to make you happy , but it will leave you feeling very empty and very unfulfilled okay and we have a saying in the states , keeping up with the joneses , you have got to do everything .
Speaker 3Then yeah , I'm sure you guys have something similar , yeah yeah , yeah , we absolutely have keeping up with the Joneses , and
Actionable Insights for Law Firm Owners
Speaker 3when you are , particularly once you reach a certain level of income , that really becomes exponential in terms of the house that you have to keep in , the car that you have to have and the handbag that you have to have , and then you get stuck in this cycle of now needing to earn the income to sustain the lifestyle that you have now subscribed to whether it's school fees or kids' activities and then you feel very trapped . That's where I was . I had a huge mortgage and I felt like I couldn't walk away from my job . I couldn't change it because I was stuck . I'd made these choices and I didn't want to change my kids' schools and I didn't want to do all of these things that had big impacts on other people . So that's a horrible feeling being unfulfilled , being on this treadmill on your hamster wheel and not feeling like you can get off .
Speaker 2Right , and that's completely different than imposter syndrome . You've put yourself in a different position in that way .
Speaker 3Yeah , and usually imposter syndrome and lack of confidence plays a role in this , because part of the reason that you're working so hard is because when you're chasing something that's not your all and it comes to you , you then don't feel like you've earned it or you've worked hard enough or you've proven yourself enough . So imposter syndrome definitely plays a role in how people go about their goals .
Speaker 2Okay , and you mentioned something in one of your talks about women unknowingly self-sabotage . How do we do that and eliminate , avoid doing that ?
Speaker 3Yeah . So I call this the triple P trifecta , which is one of the most common things , and I see lawyers doing this in a very , very big way . So self-sabotage is when we get in our own way , when we're the only ones who are holding ourselves back . And the three most common behaviors and these are labels , whether people subscribe to them or not , but let's call them sort of high-level behaviors is we have perfectionists , and those in the law firm tend to be trained perfectionists . They are trained that a missed comma or a missed full stop could completely change the definition of that sentence , which means they're now open for , you know , to be sued , and so it is drilled into them very much . It's whether perfectionists are attracted to the law or the other way around . I'm not quite sure , but you know there's definitely something there . There's procrastination , which always comes with perfectionism . So if you are a perfectionist , you will always procrastinate , because there is no better way to avoid making a mistake than never beginning , and so that's why they always come together .
Speaker 3Yep . And the other element that I also see applying a lot to women is people pleasing . And this can be some people like oh , I'm not a people pleaser , I'm not a suck up , but it's more things like if you have trouble saying no , if you can't hold boundaries , if you worry about letting other people down , then they are all signs of people pleasing , self-sabotage behaviors powerful and we all have parts of that , depending on how we're , how our moms treated us and how we , how we're we just develop , yeah yeah yeah , I think people pleasing is .
Speaker 2We don't view that exactly what it is , you know , and we think it's the the suck up and it's not the suck up and it's not the suck up no it's not the suck up .
Speaker 3And what's interesting is I see a lot of women who you know can that they've got to a certain level in the corporate world where they they have to say no . They've learned to say no so they go . Oh well , that's not a problem for me , but some of the interesting ways that we see this , people pleasing self-sabotage run is one of the traits I used to do . I call it excessive collaboration , where you don't back your own decision and so you circulate , you debrief , you get buy-in , but really all you're doing is going to others to validate your own opinion . And there can be a fine line .
Speaker 3I know a lot of cultures can be very collaborative and excessively collaborative , so you've got to juggle culture . But I know I know a lot of cultures can be very collaborative and excessively collaborative , so you've got to juggle culture . But I know I would do a lot of things . It wasn't until my CEO called me out and said Jo , you're just coming to me to get confirmation that your decision is right . Why don't you just back yourself ? And I went , you're so right .
Speaker 3And realized then that so much of what was slowing me down was me just not backing myself . And that's a beautiful example of the way that self-sabotage and we get in our own way can be very sneaky and we can logically dress it up in . That's the culture I'm getting buy-in , but in fact we're not . I mean , the question is do you need ?
Speaker 2buy-in , but you're saying , if it's part of the culture , do you find buy-in but you're saying if it's part of the culture ? Do you find that the leadership assessments make a difference with that ? I worked in a company at one time where the second in charge wanted to fire this one particular person and he was a social in that level of leadership and he needed to get two or three people's opinion and he was the only one that really mattered and he just needed to make the decision had been made . He just needed other people to agree with him before he could actually go through with it and the CEO actually came down and went . You know , kind of like you were just talking about just do it right . It's better for everybody to just pull a bandaid off , get it done and believe . Believe in your decision yeah .
Speaker 3So sometimes some of those , because these behaviors really born in our childhood , typically between the ages of six and nine , is when they are embedded the most so they become part of your identity , they become part of your dna and they will show up in some of these assessments so you can look at other traits that that say individual has around .
Speaker 3Do they also struggle to hold boundaries and do they also struggle to say no , their fears about letting people down ? And you will start to see that actually that social is just a way of putting a label on a self-sabotage behavior . And , like anything , there's a spectrum . There are , just like there's , introverts and extroverts on a spectrum . There are people who are going to be more , I I guess , predisposed to wanting buy-in or to wanting to talk through things , but there's a line where that now becomes too much . There's a line where that's no longer backing yourself and it's understanding yourself and understanding your patterns and your history and being able to self-regulate and say whoa , okay , this is I've now , I'm now going too far , I'm now not backing myself .
Speaker 2So that's the beauty of developing this awareness , particularly around these programs , and one of the things I found it was interesting to catch is weaponized incompetence from other people around you . And you know , one person said to me at one point well , you're a busy person . If you didn't get anything done , you give it to a busy person . That's weaponizing confidence , right I mean , but it happens in so many situations , whether it's work or business or personal , and it's really ridiculous when you start looking at it and people validate that and it's like that's going to be one thing that's going to lead you to burnout as well is doing things for other people because they suddenly can't do it .
Speaker 3Yeah , and so many women who come to me what I call the you know , get stuff done person , like you said , give it to me , I'll get it done . They become the go-to person . They know everything in the firm or the organization and that actually becomes part of their identity . It's often how they get significance , it's how they feel important . But it will usually cause a career plateau because a get-stuff-done person is not the influential leader that they could be . They will always be bogged down in the weeds and they actually allow .
Speaker 3Usually those people are overlooked . They are usually not compensated for all the extra work that they do and they usually burn out before others . And then they get very upset when someone either claims credit for the work that they've done and then gets promoted or gets bonuses or compensated because of that . Or they're told that they're not strategic enough , or they're told that they're not . You know they're not focused on the big picture , or maybe they're not being their billables or their business development or whatever the task is . That isn't the weeds that they've allowed everybody else to dump their stuff on . So that often , I find , relates to an identity issue and you've got to learn how to put that down and craft a new identity around . You know , being influential , saying no and having the courage to stand up to that person that is dumping all their work on you and probably taking the credit for what you've done for them .
Speaker 2And thinking about that and , of course , you know planning . So if you're making a change to these things I know I use a lot of post-it notes when I'm doing things , trying to change things and stuff Is that something that you plan for that adjustment ? Because you have to purposely make these decisions , that I'm not going to say yes to these things anymore . These are the things I'm going to focus on .
Speaker 3Absolutely . And what I teach women is when you , in any relationship with another human , when one person changes , the other human won't like it . And so part of this change process is planning for resistance . And you can either make that resistance mean oh my gosh , I've upset them , they're not going to like me . Hello , people pleasing behaviors , I'm not being nice anymore . Hello , people pleasing behaviors .
Speaker 3Instead , I train women to see that that resistance of what do you mean you said no , or what do you mean you're not going to do that for me , is actually a sign that you're changing . So we have to change our mindset about resistance and be willing to embrace it and make a new meaning of it . But you've got to be really grounded in yourself . You've got to have strong tools . So , as an example , rather than just saying no , I teach women five ways to say no . I give them five different and a lot of scripts , because you need to know in that moment I need to have something to fall back on . If no feels too hard , I need another option . So it's making sure that you've got a hefty toolkit to support you as you make those changes .
Speaker 2Fantastic . That is excellent . So you give the tools as well as the whole process . I love that that so is that part of your the high achievers guide to lasting energy and fulfillment ? You're you're helping them get all of the concrete foundation in place so they have that long-lasting energy and they can have that . Can you expand on that a bit ?
Speaker 3yeah , so that's what I do . I have a signature 12-week program and I'm very big on tools , because what a lot of women . The two pieces that tend to be missing is an understanding of how our brain works and why we do what we do . Most women are very aware of their behavior . They're aware that they're perfectionistic , they're aware that they're procrastinating and they can see the consequences of that behavior . But what they don't understand is where did it come from and why are they doing it , which brings a different level of awareness and allows them to change their behavior more from a compassionate lens , rather than I'm such an idiot , I'm doing it again , and more of that self-deprecating beating myself up lens , because we cannot beat ourselves to change . We have to do it from a more loving place . So I give them that really deep understanding of what's going on , how your brain works , how you've become this way , with no shame attached , and then they join the dots of okay , this is the behavior that I'm doing , this is the consequences , all right .
Speaker 3Well , now what's the practical thing ? That I need to change it ? Because too often I've been through every high potential program , leadership program out there and they give you leadership frameworks . Okay , that's great . But in this moment , when I put on the spot , what do I say ? I know I'm a blue or I'm a green or a , but I can't burnt out , I'm a blue , help me . It's about what can I say in that moment ? What tool can I use , what can I do to regulate myself , to really catch my thoughts and learn to change those ? So I found that it's those two bookends , it's the understanding and then it's the tools that when you put that together with women's self-awareness , their intelligence , their speed and ability to learn , that that's when they become rocket fuel and able to make really , really rapid change .
Speaker 2I love that rocket fuel enabled . I agree with you the tools are the big thing . You know it's like you know we can teach sales to people and then the real light bulb changes when you give them a sample script Okay , now I can make that my own and I can do that . So now it makes sense . So having the tools , I think really does connect all the dots how it makes sense .
Speaker 3So having the tools I think really does connect all the dots . Yeah , and the other big piece that come with the tools also is the mindset shift . So it's well and good to say to somebody
Journey of Joe Stump: From Burnout to Balance
Speaker 3you know , take your seat at the table . You know , own your worth and find your voice . But if they don't believe they deserve to be at the table , or if they're worried about that , they're going to offend someone , or they're , you know , spending all their time rereading emails they've sent to make sure that there wasn't a mistake in it , because they're worried about what that means about them . We shift the mindset and then the tools actually work .
Speaker 2Yeah , because if you grew up with a passive-aggressive parent , you're going to reread into everything what someone else is going to read into , not what you said .
Speaker 3Yeah , the amount of time women waste reading emails that they've sent , and even triple checking or quadruple checking something before it's sent , to look for okay meaning a , now meaning b meaning c meaning okay and afterwards , oh I , I forgot a comma there . Oh my gosh , I'm gonna try to retract it . It's insane . It's a huge productivity leak and a huge energy drain as well wow , wow .
Speaker 2It sounds like your 12-week program is just a groundbreaker when it comes to a high-performing woman wanting to get beyond herself and get to where she wants to be without burnout .
Speaker 3Absolutely . That's what we love doing . We love changing lives , and I say all the lawyers try to challenge me on this , but we have 100% success rate , as in , we have 100% of people finish our program , which , when typical completion rates of online programs are 15% at a push , we're doing pretty well . I think we can get lawyers to get through it all . I actually had a lawyer come through and she said Jo , I went and fact checked everything . You said I was like , oh my God , honey , you got way too much time and she said it all checked out .
Speaker 3I'm like really , come on , what do you think I am ? I work with so many lawyers . You don't think I'm going to check my facts before I put them in ?
Speaker 2Oh my gosh , that's crazy Fact checking a 12 week program .
Speaker 3She said well , this feels too good to be true . I have to double check that what you're telling me is actually fact , because it's working and nothing else has worked .
Speaker 2Oh , wow . Well , that's a great testimonial too .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , I'll take it .
Speaker 2Well , I know that our viewers and our listeners are going to want to reach out to you and take a look at your program . Where would be the best place for them to reach you , connect with you or learn more about your program ?
Speaker 3Yeah , the best place is to visit balanceinstitutecom , which is where they can find out more about our programs , and if they want to find out more on that website , there's a link for them to book in a call . They can book in a discovery session . It's free and they can find out about who we are , what we do , and we won't hesitate . If we're not the right fit for them , then we'll be sure to point them in another direction . But if we can support them in any way , then of course we'd love to help them in any way , then of course , we'd love to help them .
Speaker 2Fantastic , I'll make sure that that is in the show notes for them . Is there anything else that you'd like for our listeners to have as a takeaway ? Anything that I should have asked or they didn't ask ?
Speaker 3I think what's the most important thing for women to really embrace is that they can have it all , but they need to go on a journey to redefine what their all is .
Speaker 3They don't have to burn out . They don't have it all , but they need to go on a journey to redefine what their all is . They don't have to burn out . They don't have to accept , particularly in this profession , that a lack of personal life is the consequence or the side effect of success , that they can be as successful as they like at work , but they have to do the work if they want that fulfillment , if they want the presence at home , if they want to not feel guilty , if they want the presence at home , if they want to not feel guilty , if they want to have energy , all the things that we say we want , not just pretend we want . You've got to learn to put that down and really go on your own personal journey . But it's , it's worth it . I don't have anybody who comes outside my program who says I'm now , you know , confident at work , I'm present with my family , I now know who I am and and that's a path that , no , you know , no human will ever , ever regret going on .
Speaker 2Fantastic . Well , well , thank you so much for your time today , jo . This has been great . And again , jo , with the Balance Institute , I'll make sure that we have all your links in the in the show notes , so people can reach you Wonderful Thanks for having me .
Speaker 4Thanks for joining me today for this episode . As we wrap up , I'd love for you to do two things . First , subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode , and if you find value here , I'd love it if you would rate it and review it . That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast . Second , you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about . And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm , I'd be honored to help you . Just go to lawmarketingzonecom to book a call with me . Stay tuned for our next episode next week . Until then , as always , thanks for listening to Leadership in Law podcast and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode .
Speaker 1Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law podcast . Remember you're not alone on this journey . There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success . Head over to our website at lawmarketingzonecom From there , connect with other listeners , access valuable resources and stay up to date on the latest episodes . Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform . Until next time , keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm .
