Leadership In Law Podcast

S03E114 Hourly Billing Is Nuts with Jonathan Stark

• Marilyn Jenkins • Season 3 • Episode 114

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Imagine your fastest work earning you the most money and your clients feeling calmer as the matter progresses. That’s the power of pricing outcomes instead of hours. We sit down with Jonathan Stark, author of Hourly Billing Is Nuts and host of Ditching Hourly, to unpack how lawyers can move from the grind of timesheets to a model that aligns incentives, improves margins, and strengthens trust.

Jonathan takes us inside the moment he realized hourly billing punished his best developers and rewarded inefficiency. From there, we explore the core mindset shift: stop selling scope and start discovering value. You’ll learn how to lead smarter intake conversations, estimate what the result is worth to the client, and present three clear options with matching scopes of involvement. We dig into a practical divorce example to show how “value to the buyer” varies widely, why hourly pushes risk onto clients, and how fixed fees bring clarity, stability, and better relationships.

We also dive into technology and AI. Under hourly billing, speed cuts revenue; under fixed fees, speed raises profit. That change turns automation, templates, and systems into strategic assets rather than threats. Jonathan shares tactics for piloting fixed fees, tracking internal effort to calibrate pricing, specializing to attract high buying power clients, and deciding when to decline work that can’t be priced within an order of magnitude. For legacy clients, he outlines a pragmatic path to fixed monthly fees with periodic review, freeing you from time tracking while improving outcomes.

Reach Jonathan here: 
https://valuepricingbootcamp.com
https://jonathanstark.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanstark/
Hourly Billing Is Nuts on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3J4EoC6

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SPEAKER_03:

Welcome to the Leadership and Law Podcast with those knowledge in the knowledge, the actionable insights, and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears, your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. And in each of the stuff, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you from all the explosive growth to building a driving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who need their proven strategies and hard law wisdom. So whether you're a teaser leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law Podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

SPEAKER_02:

Jonathan is a former software developer who is on a mission to rid the world of hourly billing. He is the author of Hourly Billing is Nuts, the host of Ditching Hourly, and writes a daily newsletter on pricing for independent professionals. I'm excited to have you here, Jonathan. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. Can you tell us a little bit about your leadership journey and getting to where you are?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Probably the relevant starting point would be in 2003. I was promoted to vice president managing a small software firm. We developed software for clients. We had about 10 or 15 developers at the time. And when I got promoted to a management role, I got access to all of their salaries and I was doing one-on-ones with them and everything. And it became apparent to me that we were losing money on our best developers and making money on our worst developers because we paid the best developers a lot of money and we paid our most junior developers maybe half that. And we built everybody out at the same hourly rate. And the really good developers were fast and then only had to do things once. And the junior developers were slow and had to do things a bunch of times. So they build way more hours. And everybody was keeping their clients happy. I was like, wait a second, if we were going to hire people, we'd want to hire junior people and not develop their talents, not teach them how to get faster, not teach them how to get better. And I could not sleep on that one. I was like, wait a second, something's wrong here. And after puzzling about that for about two weeks, I finally realized that it was because we built by the hour. And if we were giving fixed prices of some kind instantly, our best developers would be super profitable. We'd be getting things done really quickly. We could, it would be so much better. All of the time tracking would go away. There were so many advantages to it. And so that was a massive eye-opener for me. But I told this to my boss at the time, and he was like, I understand what you're saying, but how would we what would we transform to? What would we switch to? And I had no answer for that. I just knew that hourly billing was nuts. So I said, All right, I'm gonna go solo and figure it out on my own, so I'm not threatening everyone's mortgage payments. And and I went off and did that and it went great. So that was the beginning of my I went from being the VP of a boutique software development firm to being a solo consultant, and it was wild. It was so much better to not be billing by the hour. And then people started asking me to teach to them, and that's what led me to where I am now.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. I love that. So I know a lot of people were confer concerned about going hourly bill, going away from hourly billing. What kind of mistakes do you find that businesses and law firms make when they first move, make that move?

SPEAKER_00:

Away from hourly? The main thing is that they don't change the mindset of cost plus pricing. So if you switched over time and materials, you might call it. So if you switch from if you switch to a fixed price from a sort of hourly rate, you will almost certainly not be asking the right questions in the sales meeting. You'll almost certainly not be you'll be thinking about scope instead of thinking about the outcome that the client wants. So at least in the software space, what that means is in an in a situation where I'm going to give somebody an hourly estimate for a proposal, when I meet with them, when we first meet with them, I'm gonna be asking them about all the different complications, all the features that they need built, all the, you know, all the tactical things, the small little things about their sort of vision for what the deliverable is going to look like. And I'm not asking them anything about how does this make your business better? How does this make your life better? If you're gonna pay me a million bucks to do this, how are you gonna be two million bucks better off when we're done? And asking all the sort of business questions or personal questions about how this is gonna transform their business or life into something that they'd rather have than this big pile of money that they're gonna give me. And that is the shift that you need to make when you switch over to I would if you're gonna do projects, I would say use value-based pricing. And it changes totally changes the conversation to where you talk to the person, you understand basically what it is worth to them to have your contribution to their desired outcome. And then you would set some prices that are totally fair based on that value to the client, and then you set some, then you decide what scope you're gonna do. You don't decide what you're gonna do before you've even figured out if it's worth anything to the person. So once you have the value from the client, you set a price or maybe three options, three different prices, then you come up with a scope of involvement for what you can do at each one of those price points.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So instead of the, if you imagine a doctor scenario, client runs in and says, Doc, give me a triple bypass. And the doctor says, Okay, take off your shirt and jump up on the table. And when the client's, okay, first cut here and then do this and then that, and then sew me up. And they micromanage the client, micromanaging the expert. Instead of that, when the client comes to you, it's like you you need to really understand their underlying motivation, why they were to hire someone really expensive like you, because there are a bunch of other options. Why would they pick an expensive option?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And then by it's subjective, but you guesstimate the value of this particular outcome to this particular person in this particular situation, this time frame. You say, okay, this has got to be worth about$100,000 to this person. That'd be crazy if it wasn't. So then you say, All right, for$10,000, what could I do? For$22,000, what could I do? For$50,000, what could I do? And you design a scope of involvement that will contribute more or less to the person's desired outcome based on the price that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so imagine that you've got say a messy divorce, and it doesn't start at that, but it becomes that. So you charge a flat rate, your original scope then would be it this happens, this is the price. Then we have to, is things complicate, then it's uh outside the scope. That's a different quote. That's a different price.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that Are you asking me if that's how I would do it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm just wondering if you know, because you can start out with a particular problem that you're gonna solve for a flat rate, but then wrinkles occur.

SPEAKER_00:

So you have to make sure you set your price high enough to account for the inevitable wrinkles. So if you talk to someone and this divorce is worth you tell me a number. Divorce I'm the husband, I come to you, I say, Oh, we've got to do this divorce. And what would that probably be worth to, I don't know, someone like me or like you?

SPEAKER_02:

If it's uncontested, it's really inexpensive, less than$2,000. But then those then become contested, and now you've got back and forth a lot of time as something decides, I want the house. No, you said I could have the house and I could have the beach house. And you know, when things finally get down to the nuts and bolts, that's when it gets when it changes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, that's true. And what you're describing is the scope of your involvement as the lawyer. You're not describing the what it's worth to the buyer. So if a buyer comes in and they don't and they have no house, they have an apartment, they don't have any kids, they don't have any dogs, they have nothing in the bank, and they just need this divorce done, it's probably worth very little to them. And they can go to probably pretty much anybody. But if Jeff Bezos comes to you, it's surely going to be complicated and be worth a lot of money. Those are two massive extremes, but the idea is that if you build for this stuff by the hour, nobody knows how much it's going to cost until you're done. So you've really never given the person a price. You've only given them an estimate of how long you think it would take. So you're putting all of the risk on the buyer. And if you've ever had the experience of something taking way longer than you expected, you probably noticed that the buyer wasn't very happy about it and there was a lot of tension in the relationship and they wanted to get it over with. Why is this taking so long? All that sort of thing. But there's no real risk to you because for every hour that you put in, you're gonna get paid. But with no risk comes no reward. So if you have someone who like Jeff Bezos comes to you and you say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna interview him. I'm gonna say, Okay, what how messy do you think this is gonna be? And if you've been in the business for 20 years, you could probably tell pretty quickly if you interview the person how messy it's gonna be or how difficult they are, your client. True. Right? So you can get a sense immediately of probably, okay, this person's a little persnickety. Based on what he's telling me about the spouse, this is probably gonna be contested. There's a lot of money, there's kids, they're fighting, they're already fighting. He's saying mean things about the spouse. So you're like, okay, this is gonna be a huge amount of work. So that means that your scope is probably gonna be really big. If it's Jeff Bezos, it's probably worth enough that you can set a price that's high enough that you don't care how much work it takes. So you say it'll be a million dollars. And okay, it takes you twice as long as you expect it, but you're still making an effective hourly rate of$3,000 an hour. Or it seems like it's here's where it cuts the other way. Someone comes in, they it's not worth that much to them, they don't have that much buying power. It's whether it's gonna be messy or not, it's just not worth that much to them. So if it's only worth$2,000, like you said, and you can tell it's gonna be super messy, in an hourly model, what you would probably do is say, look, I know you only want to spend$2,000, but I'm getting the spider sense that this is gonna take my rate is$500 an hour,$300 an hour, and this is gonna take weeks, this is gonna take months. I can tell already that this is gonna take way more time than you want to spend. So you should probably go to someone cheaper. So you can tell that it's gonna be too much, and the person is not gonna be happy if you take on that that gig unless you get super lucky and it some reason it doesn't become a big problem. So there's the cost to you, which is what almost everybody is thinking about when they're bill by the hour. They're never thinking of the value to the client. They don't even understand what I mean when I say it. So that is the mind shift that usually causes people trouble when they first shift to fix prices based on value, is they don't even understand how to think like the client or how to figure out what it's worth to them. So they're only thinking in terms of their own costs to protect themselves from feeling like they're losing money because it took longer than they expected. And really, what the problem is they didn't set the price high enough in the first place. Because I don't know about long-ish legal matters, but in software, a decent sized project will take anywhere from six months to two years. And ask me if there are ever any surprises. Yeah. Always, every single time. And so what happens when you're billing by the hour is you give them if you essentially give them an estimate for the perfect, if everything goes perfectly, the best case scenario, it's gonna take me about a hundred hours or it's gonna take me about a thousand hours times my hourly rate. And you're essentially lowballing them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because if you stop for a second and said, was this gonna go the was this gonna go perfectly? And you'd say you'd laugh just like you just did. And no, it's not gonna go perfectly. Well, so then why are you putting this estimate in that's so low? It's not gonna be that low. It's just an estimate, it's not a price. Yeah, I can't be expected to stick to it. So that is the that's the big shift. And so the trick to growing your practice without hiring more people to increase your inventory of hours, because that's what people think they sell. They think they sell hours. I've only got so many hours, so I I need to increase my hours inventory by hiring people and then marking that up. Instead of that, you need to find clients who have really high buying power. They really want what you have, like they really want it, and they don't perceive that there are that many options. Like maybe you're the only option. Maybe you're the specialist for NBA superstars handling divorce divorce matters for NBA superstars, and you're the only person that that anybody trusts. So you can charge a premium. They have a massive amount of buying power. There's no one that they trust to undercut you, and so then you can essentially set a price that's much higher than you would have estimated. It's still a good deal for them, and you end up profiting way more, and you don't have to track your time.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. That makes a lot of sense. I like the idea of changing your mindset, and and as far as the team goes, you're paying your team by the hour. So now you're you've got to figure out am I losing money if I do this? So is there a I don't know, a formula for lack of a better word to try to figure out? Or you just figure it out as you go, is this going to be profitable if I say$50,000 for this divorce that has some assets, a house and maybe kids?

SPEAKER_00:

So there's a couple of answers to that. The first is your profit and loss statement will tell you if you're making money or losing money. But I think what you're really asking is how do I know if I'm doing a good job setting these prices?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

On a project basis. And that phase, especially if you do have employees, that's a phase where you just track the information and you try and get better at it. You probably you're obviously already tracking your time. So you could start trying, I would do it on a small project. Somebody comes in with something small, something that's a slam dunk for you. You've done it a million times, and instead of the hourly thing, you say this is gonna be$5,000. And they spend you track your time anyway, but you don't send them timesheets or build them in that way. They just pay$5,000. You probably pay it up front 100%. You do your thing, and you what you might find, this is certainly my experience. So the first time I did that, even though I would have told you I was the most efficient software developer on planet Earth, magically I got a lot faster because my brain just started getting more creative. So it wasn't like I was ever purposely being slow before, but it was in my financial interest, or it would have been against my financial interest to think creatively about like how what are some other ways I could solve this problem that are outside of my wheelhouse that are not in my normal, like buying a plug in, buying some software instead of me building it from scratch. Maybe this exists somewhere and I can license it. Oh, what do you know?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So instead of a 20-hour project, I did it in two hours and I made the same money. And the client was happier because it was done faster. So all of a sudden, when you switch over, you start to get way more productive. And and there's another thing about that. So you so initially I would continue to track on a project basis for a little while just to see is this working? The and if you if it turns out that your prices, your fixed prices that you're setting are too low, which they almost certainly are because everyone starts out that way, they can't help trying to calculate the number of hours and setting the price based on the hours. They just a hard habit to break. It took me over a year. Once you notice that your prices are too low and it should have been 10,000, not because, not necessarily because any one project lost money, but you're doing the same type of project across lots of clients, and the profit margin is not that much better than it would have been with hourly, you're taking more risk. You should be making more profit. So if you say, okay, then let's say this should be 10,000, but no one's buying it at 10,000, that means you need to attract a client that has more buying power, or you need to specialize more so that they see that there are no real options that they would consider other than you. So there's some positioning and marketing that works into this, of being known as a specialist for a particular thing, and then you basically have no competition. You become a monopoly.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, that's awesome. And so your alternatives to hourly billing is flat rates, line and scale. How do you come up or discuss those alternatives with potential clients?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there's basically three ways that an expertise-based business, three main ways that an expertise-based business can price. A lawyer would obviously fall into this, software developer, designers, all these things. And the big categories are you can sell products, like you could sell boilerplate, you could sell things that that are just on your website. People buy them, they download them, you wake up, and there's more money in your account than there was when you went to bed. So I'm sure you can probably think of lots of examples in the law space for such a thing. There are even services like LegalZoom and whatever where you could just buy individual things. I've never used it, but but it even in the architecture space, there's like pre-made home plans that you can buy. These are just digital goods that are set at a price. People click a buy now button, they download it, done. So that's probably pretty that's probably the least likely thing that anyone listening to this is going to jump to, but that's a pretty common one. It could be a book, it could be a could be some kind of course. Do your own divorce, DIY divorce, something like that. Then there's a middle thing, which is a product I service, which is halfway between a product and a what you'd normally consider that what you do, hands-on service. And this would be something that is a fixed scope that is relatively fixed scope. I mean, maybe it fluctuates between 20 and 30 hours. It's not going to take more than 30 hours, probably gonna take 20 hours at least. And you publish it at a price on your website. And I know a lot of lawyers do this. So, like a no contest divorce for$2,000, and that kind of thing. That's a productized service where the buyer doesn't know how many hours it's gonna take you. They just know that$2,000 is worth it for them. So they say, yes, let's do that. And then however many hours it takes you, or if it takes you one hour, they don't care. Right, they just want the outcome for that amount. And so that's another way. That one's pretty common in the law space. I've interviewed a bunch of lawyers on my podcast that that do that. And that can be pretty profitable, but it does it can leave money on the table if you have some really wealthy buyers that can leave money on the table. So then the third way is what we've been talking about, which is where a client comes in and they're you're gonna make a custom solution for them. And they t they basically spill their guts to you. You're taking a lot of notes, you're trying to understand their motivations, you're trying to understand the outcomes that they want, you're trying to understand how they see you contributing to those outcomes, what all of that's worth potentially to this person in this particular situation. And then you give them a proposal and say, Oh, there's three ways we can work together. And that's what I described first. So you figure out the value, you set three prices, you decide what scope of involvement you want at each one of those price levels, and then you propose that to them and they pick one or the other.

SPEAKER_02:

Interesting. I see that. Yeah, I'd love the idea of starting with an interview of what is what would it mean to you to have this solved? It's like sales 101, but again, attorneys aren't necessarily in the sales training. So interesting. And what do you think about a technology or what role does technology or automation play in helping these pricing models? And we have, of course, AI now.

SPEAKER_00:

So I've actually people know that I'm the hourly billing is nuts guy, and they send me these emails all the time. I have a fair number of lawyers in my audience, and they'll send me these like threads from forums that they're in about people saying, Oh, geez, with AI, I did this 10 times faster than I would have otherwise. Do I still charge them the number of hours it would have taken me? Things like that without the AI. And I'm like, it just makes my head explode because no, you can't. Because the deal is you're charging for your time. You're not even charging for your tools. You know, like there's no line item for your laptop or your microphone or your chair or your office rent. It's your time. That's the deal. You get to charge for your time, period. So if that's the deal, that's the deal. Now, as soon as that's and while that's the deal, it makes no sense whatsoever to create boilerplate, to automate anything, to buy a faster computer, to dictate instead of handwrite, none of that makes any financial sense. You should never do anything that's going to make you any faster. And just like me, when I switched over to a fixed price model, all of a sudden your brain starts thinking about all of these new ways that you could save time. Because every time I work an hour in the hourly model, I made 150 bucks. But in the fixed price model, every time I work an hour, I lost 150 bucks. So I'm like, okay, how do I stop losing 150 bucks every hour? Your brain really gets creative. And things like AI, plain old regular automation, dictation software, boilerplate code, SOPs, all of a sudden, all of these things make tons of sense the same way that all of a sudden hiring good developers made more sense than hiring slow developers. So it's it all of a sudden AI becomes your friend because you're every hour that you save, let's say thing is going to take you 10 hours and you get it down to one hour, you know, I would still, you got a human in the loop, you can't trust the AI, but still, yeah, it's faster to review than it is to write from scratch. If you saved yourself 10 hours and you gave a fixed price, that's fantastic. It's great, right? So all of that stuff now all of a sudden makes sense. Any kind of productivity enhancements that you can do makes tons of sense.

SPEAKER_02:

And it also helps you serve more clients at the same time.

SPEAKER_00:

And I've again I've interviewed a bunch of lawyers. One in in Oregon was telling me that there's a massive shortage of lawyers and that public defenders, there's just not enough public defenders. So there's just not enough lawyers around. Okay, what if we could 5x the output of all lawyers by switching off of an hourly model? That's pretty interesting. That's like a very different approach.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a different services. If you're going to be using any type of automation or AI to reduce your work, it shouldn't cost the client more money. Just because you do hourly. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. How do you approach when someone's asking you for coaching on how to transition a client that's say a long-term client that's on hourly to a better pricing model? How do you help do that transition?

SPEAKER_00:

That's actually really hard. It's easier to get a new client in the new model than it is to transition an old client with some exceptions. So if they're a really long-term client and you've got some kind of baseline around there, there's some stability to the amount of hours that you're billing every month, then you can switch over to a model where you say, look, I'm sick of tracking my time. You're not even reading my timesheets. It's on average, you're spending about$15,000 a month with me. Let's just call it$15,000. In some months it'll be more hours, some months will be less hours, and we can revisit it in six months and see if we're both still happy with that. And then if you do that, all of a sudden, it it might seem like the same thing, but all of a sudden, you can dramatically increase your profits because now you don't have to put in all those hours. You can get creative about how to do things more quickly without, and I'm almost willing to guarantee that your brain, even though you think you're as fast as you could be now, your brain is gonna go, whoa, wait a minute. I'm losing my hourly rate every hour that I work for this client where I'm gonna get paid$15,000 no matter what. So if I can get that down to two hours instead of 20, great. And the client's still gonna be happy. If you're still, if you're becoming more effective, more productive, and you're still satisfying the client, they are not going to care how many hours it took you.

SPEAKER_02:

No, and too, it gives you an opportunity to get more of those clients. So not only are you taking more profit because you're getting more creative and getting things done faster, you have time to bring on that more clients so you can scale your your firm. I love that. That makes a lot of b sense. Do you find that once you move over to the flat flat billing or however you want to calculate that, are there certain types of work that would still really only be an hourly basis type thing?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh yes. No. So on the my simple answer to that is I wouldn't take that kind of work. If I thought there was no way to not do it hourly, in other words, if I thought it was so risky that I couldn't possibly calculate within an order of magnitude how much of my effort it was going to take, I would almost say you shouldn't really take on that client because that means that you can't tell them within an order of magnitude how much it's going to cost them. Right. Could be thousand, could be ten thousand, could be a hundred thousand. No idea. Should you really take on that? Yeah, it kind of sounds like you're not qualified to do it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly. That kind of moves away from saying, quote unquote, your niche. You're now you're now taking a on a bespoke something where maybe that's not the best client to take. So you why would I take that client?

SPEAKER_00:

So that's another thing, is that when you do switch over to this model, you'll find yourself getting much pickier about who you work with. And you can do that because you don't have to be busy all the time because your profits double.

SPEAKER_02:

What the quality of life comes into it?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I had to imagine. And the relationship with the clients gets those are the first thing I noticed when I switched was if you had asked me in 2006 when I start January 2006 when I started solo, I the I would have said that clients are difficult, they're micromanagers. I like them, but when it comes right down to it, there's this back and forth that can be uncomfortable and it happens every month or so. When I was switching this model, I never expected what happened next. It turns out that actually clients aren't like that. They just don't like having a bottomless pit that they're pouring money into with no idea of how much it's gonna be. So they of course they start to micromanage you because you keep missing your estimates or things are later and they're taking longer or you're not communicating with them, and they just see this money flying out the window. The meter is running with no end in sight. So as soon as you're like, it's gonna be$50,000, and if it takes me twice as long as I expected, that's on me, not on you. Why would it be on you if it takes me twice as long? Like, I'm the expert. So that's on me. And all of a sudden, they all calmed right down. Nobody cared about deadlines anymore. All the deadline worries was really about how many hours it was gonna take. It wasn't about when it actually had to be done. There was no real deadline, just as fast as possible, but just when it's done. Because all of a sudden, it didn't mean it costs more if it took longer. And it was amazing for the client relationships because our financial incentives were aligned. We both wanted it done fast instead of one person wanting it done fast and the other person wanting it done slow.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that the change in the attitude between the customer and you and the customer, that does make a lot of sense. And people just want to know that they're not, like you said, throwing money into a hole that just keeps getting bigger.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So exactly. That's how it feels. Very have you ever anybody that's ever had a bunch of work done on their house knows how that feels. It's the worst.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And there's always overruns. It's the why. Yeah, exactly. No, this is the real lot to think about. I've talked with other people on the podcast about hourly billing and that kind of thing and how AI plays into going to flat rate. But it's interesting to have the conversation about, like you said, the mindset and where to start. And I think it's perfect for people who maybe are not brand new attorneys, but that they know the process. How long is this thing going to take? What are the pitfalls? And being able to make that transition with new clients, not current clients or old clients. Very interesting. This has been a really good conversation. I really appreciate you being here. If any of our listeners want to reach out to you or connect with you, where would be the best place to do that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, if you want to learn more about value-based pricing, I have a you can go to value pricingbootcamp.com and it'll redirect you to my website and you can sign up for a six-day email course at six lessons that's just sent over email. And it comes right from my personal email. You can reply to any of them to ask me questions and we can start a conversation there.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. And we'll make sure that that link is in the show notes. And Jonathan, thank you so much. This has been great.

SPEAKER_00:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Marilyn.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to Lawmarketingzone.com to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law Podcast, and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

SPEAKER_03:

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law promoters out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same extent. Head over to our website at logmarketing.com. From there, connect with other lists to accept valuable resources and stay up to date on the Linux episode. Until next time, keep leading with Bridget and keep growing your floor.

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Marilyn Jenkins

Host