S03E134 Non-Transactional Networking for Career Support with Jagdeep Sekhon

Ever wondered how a junior lawyer becomes the steady legal voice in a fast‑moving startup? We sit down with corporate attorney and Legal Chutney host Jagdeep to unpack the mindset shift that turns theory into leadership: owning outcomes, translating rules into business choices, and building relationships that open real doors. From taking board minutes through an acquisition to guiding product timelines and negotiating contracts that reflect industry norms, she shows how to lead without waiting for a title.

We open up about the art of the principled no, how to explain the law, frame the commercial risk, and propose a workable path that keeps sales and product moving. In tech, where innovation races ahead of regulation, that skill is the difference between friction and flow. Jagdeep shares pragmatic tactics for in‑house counsel and firm leaders alike: understand your product, quantify risk, decide when credits beat refunds, and focus every redline on what advances the business.

Networking gets a refresh too. Forget collecting contacts. Ask better questions, follow up at milestones, and turn a one‑off chat into a mentor who tells you the truth. You’ll learn how informational interviews help you choose a practice area, avoid mismatched firms, and grow faster with genuine connections. We also go deep on mental health and belonging in legal education, what isolation feels like for first‑gen students of color, why the curve undermines collaboration, and how schools can help with socially aware faculty, resourced DEI, and accessible counseling.

Reach Jagdeep here:
https://linktr.ee/legalchutney13

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Transcript

Welcome And Show Purpose

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to the Leadership and Law Podcast with host Marilyn Jacob. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights, and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears, your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies in hard one with the whether you're a teason leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner. The Leadership in Law Podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Meet Jagdeep: Role And Podcast

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, Jagdeep Sakon, to the show today. Jagdeep is a corporate attorney at a tech startup and host of the legal podcast Legal Chutney. She's passionate about helping startups build successfully. She also enjoys helping others navigate the legal field, which is the reason she started her own legal podcast. I'm excited to have you here, Jagdeep. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Thank you. I'm really excited to be here, Marilyn.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Awesome. Tell us a little bit about your leadership journey.

Early Career And M&A Experience

Leading Without The Title

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah, so I am an attorney at a tech startup, which meant I had to go to law school for interference and grind and do all that good stuff. And then after law school, I ended up being in a law firm for a year and then moved over to a tech startup, which I'm at now. And I was also the board secretary. We just got acquired a couple, actually, maybe two or three weeks ago. So up until then, I was also the board secretary for a few months and dealing with just like the board work and how it is with the merger and all the closing documents. And so it's been a really great journey. I'm only about three years out of law school. But I feel like in the past three years, I've had such great legal experience by being at a tech startup, actually. And you're mentioning leadership. And I think even though, again, only theories are law school, right? So junior attorney, being at a startup, you have to take on so many roles and so many leadership opportunities that has come to you just because there's not that many people at the startup doing legal work or taking responsibility for the work that you have to be responsible for, right? There's no contract manager, there is no pay legal. There was a GC a while ago, and she left to do some other things, which meant I am taking on her role as well now by being sole in-house counsel. So even though I don't have the GC, let's say title, I think there are other ways you take on leadership roles, which is seeing projects from start to finish, making sure things get done. Even if it's not a legal responsibility, just knowing that, okay, this is a timeline that we have to launch this product, what is happening, who is responsible for what? Are we taking care of XYZ? Have we thought about consumers? Have we thought about the new laws? Those are the ways leadership has come into my plate at my job. And then also running the legal training podcast. I'm a one-will miss show, as I had mentioned to you earlier. So I have to take on the responsibility of producing, hosting, editing, finding people too, right? Finding who is a good fit for my podcast. Who is a good fit for this week or next week or a series I'm thinking of doing. Like I really want to do an in-house series because a lot of attorneys want to know what it's like being in-house. And so I was like, okay, let's have a few attorneys who can do that. But you want to make sure you're picking folks who are at big companies, small companies, different roles, different departments. That's not another way that leadership has I take it on in my life, even though I may not have those big titles that you would think you would want for a leadership responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I think with the in a small startup though, what you get is you're getting a lot broader experience. And now you've gone through the MA process as well. So that's increased your experience.

Team Player Mindset Over Department Of No

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yeah, it really, again, really has. And I think that's another thing for listeners who are in their earlier careers is oh, I don't have a leadership title. I don't have the big role. I'm just a junior associate. But within your role, there are probably lots of things you take responsibility for because that's what a leader is. You're just taking responsibility for something. And even when I was at a law firm, you are still managing like a paralegal. And when you're a second or third year, you're usually managing like maybe a first year. You may be managing honestly the partner, right? Because the partner isn't gonna sit there and ask for when are we getting this done? Is this happening? They're looking to you to take on that responsibility, like making sure the timelines are done, making sure everything's moving, is opposing counsel getting the documents that they need to get. So I I encourage other folks, especially juniors, to really look at leadership in a bigger, broader role versus just, oh, I have a title, I sit at the top, and I manage 20 people. It's not like that's you may manage one person, but you're also managing multiple task projects.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

It sounds like it's a whole lot of being a team player as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Oh, yep, yep. I think wanting a startup 100%, you have to be a team player because real departments that's uh in-house are departments of no. That's what I've always heard. And I'm not the department of no, I'm the department of maybe not this way. Let's figure out a different way to do it. And that you have to be a team player with that, right? Because at the end of the day, the success of the company is only if they're still a company, which means I have to get sales and business. And so sometimes I feel like for me, it's really staying there, understanding what is our end goal and what are the business risks, what are the opportunity, and do the risk weigh out outweigh the opportunity or vice versa, and letting folks know that this is how we can mitigate the risk, this is how we can work around it, this is what other people are doing. Because you don't want to, even when you're at in-house or outside council, you still don't want to leave your client, I think, disappointed. Obviously, if something's illegal, you're not gonna tell them to do that. That's when you're like, okay, no, this is definitely something we can't do. But a lot of the times, if there is a workaround, you want to help find the workaround or at least explain to your client in-house or outside council why this can't happen. Sometimes I feel like attorneys, we don't explain why something isn't possible. We just say, oh, this isn't possible. We can't do it. But the other side wants to know. And so team players is that as well. It's not always just saying yes to everything that they want. It's sometimes it's saying no, but explaining to them in a manner which they understand why it's a no, why we can't do it this way. I do that too all the time. We're like, actually, I'm sorry, I can't do this because X, Y, Z reads it. And so then we try to figure out what's the end goal? Can we do it a different way? Maybe it's not worth even doing it. And so that is also being a team player, especially as an attorney. I wish law schools taught that because in law school you're always taught, oh, there is like the law, and this is what you need to do to follow the law. But a lot of the times it's also just how do we explain to people that this is not possible? How do we explain to our team that I don't not saying no because I don't want this to happen. I'm just saying no because this is actually illegal or this is something that's not done, not been done before. So it's gonna be hard for us to do. How do we figure out a way to make it easier for us? And those are things I wish Lost could talk and also just, yeah, being a team player is so crucial as an attorney is so crucial.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

And I think giving that explanation of why you said no also gives them the opportunity to troubleshoot and figure out, okay, if we still want to do this, how can we make this happen?

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Exactly, right? Because if you just say no and you move on, it's they're gonna one, they're gonna be upset, right? Because they're not attorneys, they're business people or tech or technical people, and they're not sitting there reading legal rules or you know, they didn't go to the law cover for a theater. So say they want to know why can't we just do that? It doesn't make sense. Because sometimes, as you know too, Marlin, you've interviewed, play boy, then inventing this industry. Sometimes a law doesn't make sense. Sometimes a law is just, it doesn't make sense, it's archaic, especially when it comes to tech companies, it's not it where it needs to be, right? The tech is preceding the law. The tech is always a lot faster than what the laws are in place. And so sometimes you may work at a tech company where they are revolutionizing an industry, and now you have to sit there and tell a technical person why they can't do something, not because it's wrong or whatever, but the law just doesn't allow for it because it's not there yet. Right. And that techno person technical person is sitting there like this makes no sense. And you may agree, as an attorney, you may be like, I'm so sorry, you're right, it doesn't make sense. But at the moment, this is what the law says because it's not where the tech is. And so I feel like that's an that's another thing, too, is these folks sometimes are not gonna understand why we're saying no, because yeah, logically, maybe in their world it doesn't make sense for a no. Maybe you're like, this isn't this is not making sense to me. I don't understand. So it's your job to make them understand, right?

Explaining Legal Nos And Finding Workarounds

Why Laws Lag Tech Innovation

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yes, and exactly, and then let them come up with solutions. One of the things I know that you're very interested in based from your time in law school was networking. So, what does real networking look like in the legal world and how can attorneys make meaningful connections without feeling transactional?

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Oh, that is such a good question because I feel like that all the time as well. Like when I was looking for jobs or when I'm generally just even networking, I always feel I wonder if they think I want something from them. Because I don't. Sometimes you just want to learn and grow, especially as a law student and especially as a junior associate. The legal industry is really big, but also really small. A lot of people know each other. And so sometimes networking is an opportunity to land a job. I think when we'll start from law school, it's in law school a lot of time you're networking to get a job. So some at some point it is a little transactional. And I think as an attorney, they understand that. They understand like you're reaching out to them because you want to learn about their field, their job, their firm. So you can eventually either apply or not apply because it doesn't work for you, right? For me, I didn't really know what startup law was or what ECVC was. I had no idea. So the only way I found out was by networking. And when I networked, I realized, okay, this is where I want to be, this is the industry I want to be in. And so I applied for those jobs during OCI. I applied for tech company roles, right? And I was only able to figure that out through networking. And I'm sure the other people on the other end knew, okay, she's a law student, she's obviously reaching out so that she can figure out what I do, either apply, not apply, write me in a cover letter. But the way you make it not transactional is when you ask them about their job and get to know them and what they do and what they enjoy about their job or what they don't enjoy about their job. What sometimes you will meet partners or attorneys who've been practicing for 10 plus years. Why? You ask them, like, why are you been practicing for 10 years? Because clearly you like it, but what is it about it that you like? And sometimes some attorneys will just tell you, oh, I don't really enjoy it. I'm just doing it because it's a paycheck. And that also gives you insight into, okay, maybe this is not the field of law I want to go into because I don't want to be miserable. I want to do something I enjoy doing. So the way you that's one way you make it non-transactional is by getting asking the questions that are invested into their career, into their personal life, and then always follow up. I that's another thing. I think if someone's like, oh, I want to grow my network, it's not about meeting a hundred people in three years and saying, Oh, I've met a hundred people. It's also about meeting a hundred people, but who are of you followed up with? Who do you have a connection with that even after you graduate, you can reach out to them? For example, I have a mentor who I found in law school via a club. I can't remember the club now. And, you know, I met her in 2021 and I still talk to her. I still meet up with her. She's not too far from me, she's about an hour. So I met up with her once, but we always do a lot of Zoom calls. I'll text her, we'll do phone call chats, just to update her on what's happening in my life. It's not always about giving a job. In fact, I don't think I've ever really asked her that. It's always just, hey, this is what's happening in my career. This is what I'm doing. Do you have any advice for me? Or this is I'm thinking about moving, switching. How do I do that? And so she's become this really great mentor for me, but I started off just like a one-time program for a semester, and then we just kept it going. So that's another way where you can make something non-transactional is if you connect with them. Obviously, you'll have mentors who won't connect with all of them. But when you do, just follow up, send an email, send a text, send a message, send a Zoom call. And I feel like that's one way in law school to make it non-transactional. And it's important that you don't you make it non-transactional as well because people will see right through you if we're just like gonna be there for 20 minutes, 15 minutes, ask them, oh, I'm actually thinking about applying to this role. Can you tell me about this job? Can you tell me about that job? Can you here's my resume and keep it on file? There's just questions that you can ask and make it non-tract transactional, but then there are questions that you can ask that clearly show that you're just there to write them in a cover letter and move on. And they're gonna remember that too. They're gonna remember that. So when you apply, they're not gonna wanna put in a good word for you because at the end of the day, you were in a service industry, and if you can't even have a proper conversation with another person, felt, oh, this is a good conversation. Yes, I know she's applying for this role, but she's great to talk to. That's a problem because you're gonna you're not gonna have that relationship with clients.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

I love that. And and then same thing- Yeah, I was gonna say, and they get your personality.

Networking Without The Ick

SPEAKER_02 14:12

And they get your personality again, because everybody knows when you're networking to a certain degree that you are there for something, right? Either to learn or to grow. But it doesn't, you don't have to come across at that way when you're meeting them for the first time. Show genuine interest. That's honestly the basic thing you can do in a conversation. And same thing when you're a junior associate, like when you're at a job thinking about pivoting, or you still want to grow your network even though you're at a law firm or in-house, it's the same thing. Why are you speaking to them? Is it because you want a job? If that's the case, then how do you approach that? Or is it, do you want to grow a network? For example, myself, like I'm the sole in-house counsel right now to Tech Startup. So networking for me, sometimes it's just like learning about resources, learning about networking events, webinars, CLEs, workshops, what are what programs are other attorneys using? What sort of ways are they managing their contracts? What are they doing when they get a legal request? And so for me, now in this part of my career, it's really just trying to figure out how I can grow at my current role. And also what can I do next? What's the next steps for me? How do I get there? And again, same thing, like genuine interest with people. And it's not about the numbers, it's sometimes also about just genuine connections with folks. And I feel like that's where it's not as transactional.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

And I think in the legal industry too, it's way more about mentorship as opposed to in a lot of businesses, it's a coach. In a legal, it's just a normal thing to have a mentor. And I think if you can make that relationship as opposed to making it sound like I need something, so can you talk to me for a little while?

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah. Exactly. And the other thing I do want to tell folks is sometimes you meet someone and just doesn't click. Sometimes you're because I've had that too, where you're showing genuine interest in this person, especially as a law student. I feel like everyone's very excited and a junior attorney, you're really excited to meet people. And sometimes the other person's just not reciprocative of that behavior or that energy because they're tired. Maybe they just again don't like their job, and so they don't want to talk to you. They agreed to talk to you, but now they're just over it. And that's okay too. Sometimes you are gonna be the one to like this is not what I want with my life. I'm not gonna speak to you again, but thank you so much. There's a way to deal with that too, right? When you have a 15-minute conversation, you're just like, This is not, this is not good vibe, this is not the energy I want. That's okay. You just say, Hey, thank you for your time, and you don't need to follow up with them. Yeah, but I will say you will meet great people, and it's great to follow up and keep them in your your radar, your Rolodex of okay, I'm gonna email this person, let them know, update them, especially when there's milestones in your life. That's when people want to know, right? What's happening, what do you've done?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah, I love that. And I love the idea of using networking to decide what type of law you'll enjoy doing. You need to make that decision at some point, and if you can do it in a very relaxed networking environment and learn from that person as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, I because I will say you'll meet people who you can tell hate their job or their firm too. Like, especially at any point in your career. I won't even say law students, because I think as attorneys, you don't stay sometimes at the same law firm you started at after graduating. So sometimes you are meeting people and you'll tell, you can tell that they hate their job just because the way they talk about it, the way they interact with you about the job. And sometimes some people will tell you, hey, I don't like this practice group at all. I'm actually thinking about pivoting, or I don't like this firm, I'm actually thinking about leaving, and being honest with you. There are attorneys like that, and I think sometimes the younger attorneys are actually more honest because they are just like fed up, or they also have more transparency with you as a law student because they're closer to you in age or they're closer to you in experience. And yeah, sometimes you want to know what law you want to practice, what law you don't want to practice, what firm you want to go to, what firm you don't want to go to. So networking is a win-win. Either it lands you a job or it shows you don't want that job and you don't want that firm.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

I love that. Take it and take and learn from it. Excellent. Yeah, absolutely. You said law school can be very competitive and stressful. What were the biggest mental challenges that you faced and how did you manage them? And did it affect the fact, or was it because you were during COVID?

Mentors, Follow‑Ups, And Real Relationships

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah, so that's another thing you mentioned too, right? I started law school in 2019, September, and then COVID hit what, like January, and then we were like locked down in the fifth around February. So a lot of my law school career was in COVID, which I think impacted a little bit, but I had come home during winter break, and then I just stayed home until I think almost the end of the third or fourth quarter. Because like there's no way I'm gonna go back and fly and all this kind of stuff. But I feel like law school is hard, right? It's like academically challenging. I don't think you'll meet very few people that say, Ingrad, law school is so easy, even though people are at the top of the class. But I feel like the one thing people don't talk about enough is it's also emotionally and mentally really draining. And what I mean by that is I was a first gen person of color going to law school. I come from a very diverse, I'm from the Bay Area from California. And I went to EC Berkeley for undergrad. I've been in a very diverse environment my whole life. Like I have never been in a room where there wasn't, let's say, five different types of ethnicities or races or different types of cultures. But when you go to law school, it's a very privileged, isolating place for people of color because there's not that many of us that go to certain schools, but even just job law school generally. And when you sit in a classroom, I think this was like one of the first times where I was like, oh my gosh, I don't see that diversity I used to see when I was in law school in undergrad. And then when you step out of your house, sometimes like I moved to Seattle and where I lived, it wasn't diverse as well. And so that really took a mental toll on me too, because when you don't see people that look like you in the same room, you do feel imposter syndrome. And I think that's probably the first time I felt imposter syndrome, like in my whole entire academic career, because I just didn't see people that look like me. So I felt, oh my gosh, I don't belong here, or I'm struggling mentally, and maybe it's just me because I don't see very many other people. And the other thing about law school is even if you do see people that look like you, everyone wants to be at the top of their class. Everyone wants to go to big law. A lot of people want to go to big law, and big law looks at grades, and then people who don't want to go to big law and me want a clerkship with a judge. That also is very grade-oriented, or you want to go to a really big nonprofit like the ACLU or other recognized nonprofits, those also look at grades. So grades are really heavy on your first summer jobs, on your first job after law school, and it's competitive. Like people don't want to really share their answers with you. They don't want to have big study groups, maybe, because they just want to get that A since it's also a curve. Law school's really on a curve. So only so many people are gonna get an A. So many people are only gonna get A minus, and then the rest are gonna average to a B or a C. So that kind of environment, to me, it's really funny because when you start law school, people are like, oh, be collaborative. These are your friends for the rest of your life. But that environment is not set up to be collaborative. It's not set up actually to want to help each other, if you think about it, because if that was the case, then why are we being created on a curve? Right? Then it's yo, whoever gets an A, whoever gets a B, gets a B. Why is there a curve in place? Why are grades so heavily dictating my first job? You've probably seen it. OCIs have gotten moved up almost by three months, four months. People don't even have grades now. So what are we, how are we figuring out who to give a job to now? Because now we're not even having grades by the time people get interviews. Maybe by the time you get an offer, your grades may have come out, but that's only one semester of grades. That can't really dictate how well you're gonna do the rest of your legal career in law school, but also your legal career. So the environment is not set up to be collaborative and it's not set up to really be friendly. I have friends who I've made in law school, and I think it was simply because we had the same sort of issues that I'm telling you right now. We all felt very isolated, we all felt very like we don't belong here, children immigrants. And even when I transferred to a different law school, it's still the same thing. So I won't even say it was just one law school felt like that. I feel like this is just an entire law school sort of phenomenon. Some people may have it better, some people have it not even worse than I feel like maybe I have may have had it, but it is a problem. And I feel like it's not discussed as much because everyone's so focused on law school being really expensive, law school is really academically challenging, don't do it, you're gonna hate your life. We're focused on those kinds of things, and we're not really focusing on our mental health, which really can tank if you don't understand how to take care of it before you go to school. So it's 'cause like I again, like I never faced imposter syndrome too much and didn't really have too much anxiety. Right. Like I feel like the normal things I had. As undergrad was great, we're fine. But when I go to law school, everything just exacerbated. Just because I was feeling like I also moved away from home for the first time, lived on my own, and I'm a very extroverted person. It was Seattle. Seattle gets dark. It's starting September. It's it gets dark at five o'clock. So all those things I wasn't really aware were going to impact me so much until I got there. And then I didn't really know how to deal with it because I've never had to deal with that in the past, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:21

And do you think that okay, so it seems to be just part of law school? Is there something that that the across the board law schools can do that to help more for that inclusion factor or just the welcoming?

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah. Definitely. I think law schools, one can hire faculty who are socially aware and understand that there are going to be some cases and some laws that are going to trigger people, right? Like, for example, as a woman, I was in contract class and I remember there was a rape case. And just because I may not have gone through that doesn't mean that it's not going to trigger me or that it's not going to bring up memories that maybe my friends have gone through, or other women in the room who actually have gone through that. So maybe we make, I'm thankful that the teacher was very socially aware. So she did give a trigger warning. She was very mindful about discussion. She didn't really open it up for people to start to have discussion about this case, even though people try. That's another thing. People try in law school, I think, to say the most outrageous thing and play devil's advocate. We don't need to play devil's advocates in certain cases. So I think hiring faculty that are socially aware and not just like great legal scholars, but also emotional, like their EEQs are high too. Yeah. And that they understand that the law impacts different people very differently, depending on who you are, and that they can address that. Because I think that the only thing about law school is always just is like the Black Latter law. This is what the law is. Here's the rule. Do your analysis. But maybe we need to spend some time discussing how it impacts people and why it will trigger you and why, if you came to law school, maybe it wasn't so you can uphold racist laws. Maybe it was actually so that you can create an inclusive space and fight against that oppression that you feel like this law or these, yeah, like the legal industry or the laws may bring to you. So that is one thing I think folks can do. The other thing, what do you think most law schools do is I don't know now with the current sort of administration and how things are, but a lot of schools do have DEI clubs and initiatives where you will meet people. Like I remember I went to a networking event that was solely for people of color and women. And so that was great because if I felt like, okay, now I'm around my peers. Again, right? Like as a first gen, I didn't really have any lawyers in my family. I had interned at a public defender's office and that was it into my legal atmosphere. I didn't have a partner, I didn't have a dad who had a partner at a big law firm, or I didn't grow up around aunts and uncles who are lawyers. And so to have an event cater towards those kinds of students who are similar to me and have a similar background was really helpful. Because one, you get to meet other people in your law school who have a similar background, and two, you get like more one-on-one time with those folks at the networking events. So that's another thing. And the other thing, lastly, too, I will say is don't just bring people, students of color, thinking, oh, this is great. Like our numbers find out diversity are amazing. You really need to have systems and programs in place to help them, right? Some people think, oh, this law school brought in 70% women. But what are you doing for those women? Are you having a club for women who are mothers? Are you accommodating to women who are mothers? Or do you have nighttime classes for them? Do you have really early morning classes for them? For students of color, do you have, let's say, the law school I went to had a therapist who was also a lawyer? And that was great. But then do you have a therapist who's maybe a person of color? Do you what does your faculty look like? What does your staff look like? Do you guys celebrate or allow, if you don't want to celebrate, do you allow other students to celebrate their cultures and share that with their peers? Do peers, do students feel comfortable sharing those kinds of things? So I think all of that is what law schools can do. I really hated law school. I love practicing as an attorney. I love it. I love my job. And I loved undergrad, but I will say I did not like law school and I'm very open and vocal about that just because I felt like I wasn't learning. The focus on learning wasn't there as much as it was trying to just survive for me because of the environment that is created.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Wow. Now that's an interesting way of looking at it. Yeah. I love the coming back to the inclusion. And if you're going to have DEI, have the clubs were. I remember when I was in college, the clubs made a huge difference. And just meeting friends, absolutely. And other people like you.

Choosing Practice Areas Through Conversations

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Yeah. And again, I think sometimes, and this is true across the board. I won't even say it's a law cool thing, but sometimes we'll have these clubs and we'll have these, oh, like things that we can list in our brochure. But are we funding the clubs? Are we actually giving them the time, the space to have meetings? Do we make it easy for them to have meetings or hard? Do we support them? Because sometimes there will be law schools tend to be smaller classes. I think maybe two, three hundred kids in your incoming class, which is really small compared to undergrad. Even less, I think when I my first loss I went to was like 150 kids or so. And so maybe that club you're gonna start is only gonna have five people. Do you make it easy to have a club with five people? Do you have a minimum okay? We need to 20 people for you to start a club. Because maybe you're out of school where you're not gonna have 20 people. Like for me, I was one of two South Asians in my entire incoming class. Like I'm Indian and the other young lady was like Pakistani, right? So not that we started a club, but because there was one, there was a South Asian and the Middle Eastern club. But let's say we wanted to start something and it was just the two of us. Is it easy for the two of us to try a club or are you gonna impose like a minimum requirement and then we'll start a club? Are you gonna help us with resources or is it just oh great, now we can put this on our brochure that you two started a club and it'll be like one other thing you can advertise, right? So that's another thing. Like, how much support are you giving to even students who want to start something?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

That's very interesting. It yeah, to be able to network within your group. Let's think a little bit about the when you transition to an in-house. I know that's a big shift. You said you worked at a firm before. What surprised you most about moving from traditional legal path to working inside a company?

Mental Health, Belonging, And Law School Culture

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yeah, I the biggest thing is how business oriented you need to be as an attorney. Again, you don't really run a law school because it's just it's not taught to you. But when you go in-house, and I've met other attorneys too, so I can say that this is very true, is how business oriented of a mindset you need to have, and you always need to be thinking about the business, right? Can I get this done? What are the business risks? You're not always thinking from some you are thinking from compliance, but you're always thinking, what's the business risk too, right? Do I want to fight back on this clause because I feel like it's a legal issue, or am I gonna fight back because it's a business risk to, you know, the company I work at? And that's another way you have to frame it too. It's like this is actually not illegal, but it's a business risk. You need to understand the product really well. I feel like, especially when I'm being in a smaller company as a startup, because you're handling so many different departments and so many different things, it's not enough for you to just sit here and understand like contracts. You need to understand the product really well to be able to write the software licensing agreement, to be able to understand the industry as well, because there are gonna be certain things that are normal in an industry and you need to be aware of that. Is net 30 normal payment terms for your industry, or is it something you're asking, or that's something has to be that's out of the ordinary? Is it normal that you're not gonna get a refund for this kind of contract and you're only gonna get credits? If that's not the case, then you need to fight back on that, like when you read it and redline it. But if it's normal, then that's something that you're not gonna be sitting there fighting back on because you 99.9% of the companies don't give refunds. Hey, this is something we have to suck up, which is why understanding the business is really important, right? Because then you understand, oh, it's okay if we don't get a refund because it's a it doesn't impact our business too negatively. Or actually, this is a huge issue if we don't get a refund. Are we prepared to take the risk and the loss in case we don't get a refund and we have to get credits? Is this a good supplier? Is this a good vendor? These are questions you need to ask when you're looking at contracts and when you are thinking about saying yes or no to something, versus when you are outside counsel, you're not really thinking about those things. You're just sitting there, like, yes, this payment is gonna be net 30, there's no refunds. And then the business teams in-house have to figure that out. But you being in a company have to preopt and proactively figure that out. You have to say, This is not good for a business, this is good for business, or I think this is a business risk, you tell me. So the business mindset is something that I think you will have to learn very early on when you go in a company, unless you're in a different department, right? Like I met someone who was doing product at a big tech company, and she probably didn't have to doesn't have to do with this business stuff, right? Hers is just the product, creating agreements, licensing agreements, whatever it is for that team. But then she also has to understand like business certain extent. So I guess it does depend on where you go, but I will say a lot of folks I talk to always say how much you need to know the business and help it grow and think from a business mindset too. Like you've done LinkedIn, a lot of folks are in-house. They always talk about yes, you're an attorney, but you're also a business leader. You're also not you're not a salesperson, but you are helping the business grow. And so you need to have that in your mind when you're reviewing and discussing and negotiating.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

I love that. I agree. I think having because it's not necessarily something they teach in law school, it's how to run a business. So you get a much much more rounded experience from where you are.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah, you really do. And again, like I said, there's a reason I'm not a big fan of law school, and I feel like there needs to be things that change, but this is one thing, right? You don't learn that in law school. You just learn how to understand the law, interpret it, but not how it comes into place in actual practice. Like you learn theory, but theory doesn't, it's not how actual practice is, and especially when you're in a house dealing with the day-to-day grind.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

So agreed. Now, you've done a lot with your support system and your networking system. If we're looking at it at say law students that are listening to this podcast or young lawyers, what's your best advice for them building a strong support system in in such a high pressure field?

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yeah, I think that once darks in law school, you have to find your people and you have to be honest with yourself of who your people are. Because you're gonna meet folks who come from so many different walks of life, different experiences, diverse backgrounds, and not just diverse backgrounds because they look different, but just from experience, right? You're gonna meet people who actually, like I mentioned, do have lots of warriors in their family. And that's gonna be really interesting because they're gonna have a different point of view on life. They're gonna have a different viewpoint in class. And so you have to really sit there and think, who is my community? Who are the people that I resonate with? Not because of the titles that they have, but because of just they have such really cool viewpoints in life, or they can or are connected with them because we have similar backgrounds. So find your community in law school and be honest with who that is. Don't just go being friends with people because they come from very perverse backgrounds, because you think they're gonna help you get a job. Because again, another thing people in law school learn is, oh my gosh, this is like your friends forever. This is your networking, network, network with your peers, which is yes, true, network with them. Don't be rude, don't be mean, don't go out of your way to be a horrible person. But you also don't need to be super close friends with every single person you go to law school with, right? Find like a few people who you are going to call your tribe or your inner circle. And then the rest of the people are, yes, your acquaintances, your colleagues, you work with them, you may have study groups with them, you may have classes with them. So you discuss certain things. And for me, my community was finding people who just had the same struggle as me, had the same sort of growing backgrounds as me, right? Like a lot of my friends from law school are people of color, South Asians, just because we have similar backgrounds, we can discuss the same things about our parents, about our culture, about where we come from and how we want to and how we see our Leo careers as well. That doesn't mean I don't have friends who don't come from those backgrounds. It just meant that those were the folks I would call and text when I was like venting or upset or just struggling because I felt like they could understand. And then the rest of the folks I had were great acquaintances, great colleagues, great people to chat about with class, about contracts, about finals, maybe do a study session with. And that was okay too, right? Like they weren't my inner circle, but they were still a part of, let's say, my community of folks to survive law school.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

I love that. I love that. Great advice. This has been absolutely incredible. I you shared so much. I know my listeners may want to reach out to you, connect with you. Where would be the best place for them to do that?

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah, of course. So I'm on LinkedIn, and again, Marilyn, you can share it everything in the episode details, but I am on LinkedIn. You can also email me at legotchetney13 at gmail.com. I also have an Instagram page, which is Lego Chutney. And again, I also have my own podcast if folks can listen. And, you know, it's not just me talking here, it was me talking about my experiences. But there I also bring lots of other attorneys, law students, faculty, recruiters, just everyone who's in the legal industry. I don't just stick to just attorneys. And they share their tips and tricks with surviving law school, OCI recruiting, mentorship, like drought applications, all that stuff that I feel like sometimes gets left out in law schools. And or sometimes just we don't, we want another opinion, right? Like we want a recruiter telling me what I need to put on my resume. We want the hiring partner, the law firm to tell me what I need to do and say in an interview to land that job. So all those people come, and those are the places you can reach me, you can listen, and hopefully it helps folks in their legal training.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Absolutely. What we'll have is in the show notes is your link tree that gives all of that, and that way people can reach out to you. That's excellent. This has been a really great conversation. I think you've shared so much on developing your network and your support system and the clarity of being an in-house counsel for a small tech startup. I love it. I loved it. Thank you so much for your time today.

unknown 37:19

Great.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Thank you so much, Verlaine, for having me. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to LawmarketingZone.com to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law Podcast, and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law firm owners out there facing similar challenges and striving for the same success. Head over to our website at LawMarketingZone.com. From there, connect with other listeners, access valuable resources, and stay up to date on the latest episodes. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us to review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep leading with vision and keep growing your firm.