S03E142 Self-Empowered Recovery From Substance Use Disorder with Mary Beth O'Connor

What if recovery wasn’t a single path or a sudden epiphany, but a practical system you can build step by step? We sit down with Mary Beth O’Connor, attorney, former federal administrative law judge, and author of From Junkie to Judge, to unpack how trauma, co-occurring disorders, and culture shape addiction and how personalized plans create lasting change.

Mary Beth shares how early substance use and a high ACE score fueled years of chaos, and how prioritizing five core areas, sobriety, trauma care, relationships, work, and debt, became the backbone of a sustainable rebuild. We explore multiple pathways to recovery beyond 12-step programs, including LifeRing Secular Recovery, SMART Recovery, Women for Sobriety, She Recovers, and Dharma Recovery, and why outcomes improve when people choose the peer support that actually fits. We also dig into evidence-based tools like medications for alcohol and opioid use disorders, trauma therapy, and the reality that plans should evolve as life does.

For legal professionals, Mary Beth offers a candid look at why attorneys face double the national addiction rate: relentless pace, perfection pressure, and unpredictable calendars. We connect the dots between impairment and ethics, competence, diligence, and case delays, and point to confidential help through lawyer assistance programs. On stigma, Mary Beth explains how “open recovery” changes minds, brings hope to families, and reframes addiction as a medical, mental health disorder. Families get a clear starting point with CRAFT (Community Reinforcement and Family Training) and the book Beyond Addiction, which replace ultimatums with positive reinforcement and shared problem-solving.

Reach Mary Beth here:
Website: junkietojudge.com
My memoir: https://a.co/d/0W8sMrq
X: MaryBethO_
Bluesky: marybethoconnor

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Transcript

Welcome And Show Framing

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to the Leadership in Law Podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights, and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears, your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies in hard one with the poor. So whether you're a teaser leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership in Law Podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

Meet Mary Beth O’Connor

From Addiction To Legal Leadership

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, Mary Beth O'Connor, to the show today. Mary Beth is an attorney, former federal administrative law judge, author, and nationally recognized recovery advocate. After nearly two decades of substance use, beginning in her teens, Mary Beth has now been sober for more than 30 years. Her journey from addiction and trauma to a distinguished legal career is captured in her award-winning memoir From Junkie to Judge: One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction. Mary Beth is a director of MyFering Secular Recovery and the She Recovers Foundation and serves on the advisory council for Higher Calling Foundation. She speaks widely about multiple pathways to recovery, trauma, substance abuse disorder, and stigma, and trains attorneys, judges, and other professionals on addiction and ethics. Today she shares both her personal story and practical insights into recovery, resilience, and how society can better support those struggling with substance use. I'm excited to have you here, Mary Beth. Welcome. Thank you. I'm excited for it as well. All right, this is a great subject. Can you tell us a bit about your leadership journey and how you got here?

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Yeah, as you mentioned, my childhood started tough. I always use the trauma part because I think it's important to know where addiction often come from. And a lot of times it's from child abuse, right? And so that's what it was for me. I started using alcohol at 12. I was shooting methamphetamine by 17 and didn't get sober till 32. So it was a really long haul. I actually tried to go to law school in the middle of that at Berkeley Law, but because of my addiction, I literally gave back a top 10 law school because I couldn't get there and I couldn't concentrate. So that was like a huge loss. When I got sober, those last 10 years, I had really worked my way down that corporate ladder. And I also was not in great physical shape. I was still recovering. And so I started at a low-level, like part-time temporary job just to get my feet underneath me to get used to getting up and going to work on time and staying all the hours and doing that day after day. And then I got a full-time job, mid-level job. And then I worked my way into a supervisory position, middle management in a high-tech company. And at six and a half years sober, when I was 39, I finally decided to let's try to actually go to law school. And I went to Berkeley Law. I graduated when I was 42. I did the big law thing. I live in the Bay Area. I worked in Silicon Valley. And then I did class actions. I led class actions for the federal government. And then at 20 years sober, I was appointed a federal administrative law judge. And I did that for five and a half years. And now, as you say, I'm a writer and speaker and advocate in the recovery space, including that I do CLEs for attorneys and judges about substance use in the legal profession. So that's like the leadership argument. And I will also say my retirement has been great in that it opened up new opportunities for me to be of service to my community, but also to be of use because I'm retired. I don't have to worry about professional ramifications from telling my whole story. And so I try to use that former judge title as an ear opener so that when I share information that I think is important, people listen, I think, a little bit harder and maybe absorb a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

I agree. I agree. And so that's then that's is that why you named your book from junkie to judge?

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Normally it's junkie, and I wouldn't call anyone else that. There's no person who's too hopeless to help, who's too far gone to help. I shot methamphetamine for most of 15 years, and then I had a robust recovery. It was a progressive recovery step by step. And it also was a trauma recovery. A very high percentage of people with substance use disorders, which is the modern name for addiction, the medical name, they have another mental health disorder. I had PTSD and I didn't know it. I had very severe anxiety. And so I had to recover from that as well, which is very common. With work, with time, with effort, you actually can fully, I say 95% recovery from the trauma, but you can build a happy and robust life. And to me, that's more reason that we should help those who are struggling because they can get out of it if we offer them the right opportunities to do so.

Turning Points And Early Recovery

SPEAKER_01 5:42

I agree. I agree. So now you've been somewhere for over 30 years. When you look back on it, what was your turning points that really made your long-term recovery possible for you?

SPEAKER_02 5:52

I know in movies it's always like this epiphany moment. But for me, like for many of us, it was really a wearing down process where I was just getting more debilitated, more exhausted, more miserable, feeling very trapped, very hopeless. And finally, that made me say, maybe I ought to go to rehab. And that's how it started. I did not, like many of us, I did not start my recovery journey thinking I'm definitely going to be able to get sober or being perfect. I used methamphetamine three times in my first five months. Very common. Very few people have perfect abstinence from day one. You don't really have the skills to do that for most of us. And so it's not, it wasn't a light switch. It was a gradual process. And even I didn't really believe sobriety was an option for me. I was trying to figure out how to do fewer drugs so my life was better. But that exposure to other people with a similar story who have succeeded, it can be really critical because it starts to give you the hope that maybe it is actually an option for you too if you do the work. And so that's how it was. It wasn't, it wasn't a like a major event. It wasn't perfection. It wasn't, I'm confident I can do this. It was really that step-by-step progression until I got to the point where I both thought I could have it, but also I was developing the skills to maintain it.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

I love that. That is because there's so many stories of this cold turkey thing. You're taking it, you took it realistically in your own mind. Let's just get better as opposed to get Yes.

Priorities And Building A Recovery Plan

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Although I I'm making it sound like I was happy about this slow progression test. And I wasn't. In early recovery, there's this urge to make up for lost time. I want to fix everything like in the first year. But they at some point you have to un realize it's just not realistic. And like for me, when I got home from rehab, I actually made a list of everything that I had to work on. Um, it turned out it wasn't a comprehensive list, although I thought it was. But it was way too long to work on everything from like at the beginning. And so I had to prioritize. And so there was that recognition that this is not going to be uh snap my fingers and my life's gonna be where it would have been if I hadn't been using meth for the last 15 years. It really, I didn't like it, but I had to learn to accept it because I had to maintain focus on the limited number of things I could prioritize at once. And I really had to start where I was, and it's what's the what are the five areas I'm gonna work on? Which I picked sobriety, my trauma recovery, my relationship with my partner, which was really the edge of explosion, getting back to work and starting to get my debt under control. And that was it. Like everything else was secondary. What's my first goal in each of those areas? What's my first plan in each of those areas? Okay, what's my second? That incremental process that I really had to learn to accept was going to be the way forward in all areas. So I wasn't thrilled. I wanted it to be faster than it was, but I learned to accept it and I learned to take that approach and then see that I was actually gradually moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Very good. Yeah, those are you say it's only five things, those are massive things that you chose.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Yes, but they were the core fundamentals. And but you're right, it was a lot going on at the same time, even with just those five things. It was a lot to try to work on. You're right.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

You talk about surviving abuse and trauma, childhood abuse and trauma. How do you how do trauma and substance use disorder often intersect?

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Yeah, so there's a very high correlation between trauma, especially in childhood, and developing an addiction. So there's something called an adverse childhood experiences score. It's a test of 10 questions of adverse childhood experiences. So, for example, was there physical abuse? Did you suffer physical abuse, sexual abuse? Was there partner, parent-on-parent violence? Were you in poverty? Were you, was there divorce? Was that one of your parents' untreated mental health? Questions like that. And it's 10 questions. And if you only, even if you score four, you have a three to four times likelihood of developing an addiction. And my score is seven. And so there's a real high correlation. And there's a lot of reasons. One is when you're a child and you have these experiences, they have a disproportionate impact on you because your brain is still developing, right? And so it affects you. You're not really learning emotional regulation from the home environment. You're not learning how to handle issues, you're not safe. But the other side of it is that substances have a disproportionate impact on you when you're a teen because your brain is developing. And so the odds of developing an addiction are a lot higher the younger you start. And so part of what we encourage is for people to think about at least starting later so that you reduce your risk. So there's strong data correlating the two. Same with mental health disorders, strong untreated mental health is the second most common pathway into substance, excessive substance use. Those aren't the only two paths, but those two together are about 75% of the people that develop an addiction.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Okay. And it's interesting. So when we're talking about recovery, most people think it's just that one is one path. Why is it so important to talk about multiple peer support options?

Trauma’s Link To Substance Use

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah, I'm for me, like 12 steps is what people know, right? Alcoholics Anonymous, narcotics and all of the many anonymouses. And 12 steps is a good fit for many, but it's also not a good fit for many others. And what the data shows is that if people go where they're most comfortable, they're going to have the best odds odds of success. The other thing is that 12 steps doesn't work better. So there are other groups like I'm on the board for life ring secular recovery. There's studies showing that life ring is equally effective to AA, that smart recovery is equally effective to AA, that women for sobriety is equally effective. So it's really about when I talk to newcomers, I say, read up like on at least the top six groups, right? And she recovers would be another, as would Dharma recovery. Read up on their philosophy, read up on their meeting format. One or two of those groups are going to really sound more attractive to you. Like people that think like me are going to be there, or that meeting format sounds good to me. Go there. If you're comfortable, if you feel like the people in the group are going to understand you better, you're going to have a better chance. And so that's really critically important. And then it's multiple pathways, also, though, does mean things like do you also need mental health treatment at the same time? Some people find doing yoga to be beneficial. A lot of people need medication, whether for their mental health disorders or for their uh substance use disorders. There's medication for alcohol use disorder, and there's medication for opioids use disorder. So multiple pathways is about peer support choice, but it's also just about the broader point that the sort of the plan, the combination of strategies and techniques that will work for me is probably going to be different than the best plan and strategies and techniques for you. And also that it will change over time. Plans evolve over time, and what is helpful or what works for us evolves over time.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

That's interesting because I think AA is the one, the main one that most people think about. And you're right, it's not a good fit for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah. I'll say in Life Ring, we're secular, but we have a pretty high percentage of religious people in our program because they like the self-empowerment approach, or for us, it's about a personal recovery plan, that individualized plan approach. So people choose different groups for all kinds of reasons. 12 steps is very structured. Some people like that kind of structure, other people really hate it. Like any aspect of any of the some people find life ring to be too loosey-goosey. So it's really about what is the right fit for you. And the good news is even that is literally every town, as far as I know, so it's everywhere. But now it's online. If Life Ring or She Recovers isn't in person in your community, they are in person, but not everywhere. These meetings are all online now. 12 steps is online too. So people have a lot more options and a lot of flexibility. And you can mix programs. I did multiple programs and pulled this idea from here and that idea from there and developed an individual plan that worked for me. So you don't have to give up 12 steps to try other methodologies. You can you can mix it up. You can mix it up.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Just find what works best for you.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yes. And keep and also keep your mind open to what you might need next. Like it's good to reevaluate your plan. Is the plan still working for me? Do I need to either add something or can I let a strategy go because I don't need it anymore? It's not really helpful. And I need the mental bandwidth to focus on what's the right next step or the new thing that I want to learn. And so it's an iterative and evolutionary process.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

And I think we as people are like the right next step. Yeah. So you don't just finish a program and you're done. You can find something that's going to work better for you for the next step.

Multiple Pathways To Recovery

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah. The same skills that I was building for my recovery were actually life skills in general. What are my priorities? What's my first goal? What's my first plan? Boom. It worked for everything. Now, some people start off not as broken as I was. And so they actually don't, they don't have to start at ground zero the way I did. The substance use disorder, which is the medical name, substance use disorder addiction, is a mental health disorder. It is, I guess it is a mental health disorder. It's in the SNM, the diagnostic manual. Like all mental health disorders, you can have a mild, moderate, or severe substance use disorder. Like you can have mild, moderate, or severe anxiety. It's the same thing. And so where you're starting and what you need can depend significantly on where you are on that spectrum. So for example, somebody with a mild to moderate addiction may not need inpatient treatment. They just may not need that. Somebody on the more severe end is more likely to need that. Whether they can access it is a different question, but they're more likely to benefit from it. And so there are a lot of factors that go into what's the right plan, but also where you're starting off in life. Somebody may be starting off where they still actually have a job. Good for you. Let's let's get help then. Let's not wait. But maybe they've already destroyed their relationship. And so they have work to do there. So we all walk in the rooms and a different combination of factors, different priorities, and different levels of severity for where we are.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

I see. So thinking about the programs, the LifeRame Secular Recovery and She Recovers Foundation, what makes those communities unique and who might benefit most from those?

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Yeah, so Life Ring's fundamental philosophy, we call it the three S's. So it is sobriety, although our definition can be a little different than some 12-step groups, in that for us, medication for alcohol use disorder or medication for opioid use disorder that fits our definition of sober if it's taken as prescribed. But also, our focus is on building an individual plan that works for you. We call it the personal recovery plan. So the purpose of the group is to help you build that individual plan. In fact, in life ring meetings, the format is crosstalk. Like we can talk to each other and have a discussion if you want it. So you could say, I'm going to go to my first alcohol event on Friday. Does anybody have any suggestions like as to how to handle that? And there can be a conversation. For she recovers, she recovers isn't just for substance recovery. It's also for trauma recovery, mental health, grief, perfectionism, and overworked can be trauma responses. Attorneys often suffer from those two things. That you can be in recovery from that. Cutting, gambling, eating, all of those things together. Because most of the women who have one of those things to recover from usually have one or more additional things. And when she recovers, you don't have to segregate. Over here, I talk about my alcohol. Over here, I talk about my gambling. Over here, I talk about my trauma. You can talk about it all together because the recoveries have an inner relationship. And so those are just two different approaches that people, you know, some people will find more attractive than some of the other options.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Okay. Okay. And you build an individual recovery plan for yourself, and that works. So what does that mean in in practice?

Personal Plans And Peer Support

SPEAKER_02 18:33

It really means you're the boss of what your plan is. So for example, when I was in rehab and they told me 12 steps is the only way. You have to do it. You have to follow the 12 steps. They literally said, or you will fail, Merryman. I I couldn't, 12 steps just was wrong for me, but I didn't shut my ears off. I read all the AA big book. I read the NA text. I went to meetings because at first I didn't know there were options. And I was always viewed it as my job to consider. These people in this meeting, this program may not be the right fit for me, but they do know things that I don't know. So let me see which of the things that they're using, which of their approaches, which of their strategies, which of their ideas I think would be useful for me. And so I viewed it as my job to listen and to consider, but that I got to be the decision maker as to whether I would incorporate that into my plan. So personal plan, individual plan doesn't mean by yourself. It just means that you're the creator, you're the decision maker, you're the sort of the boss of your recovery. But most people benefit from interacting with others who have succeeded ahead of them, from learning strategies and techniques that have worked for others. Like in Life Ring, if we were having that conversation about the alcohol event, nobody's going to tell you what you have to do at that event, but they're going to give you ideas for you to think about. Is this a good strategy for me? Should I use it? Should I modify it? So it's that kind of an idea. You're in charge, but we encourage you to keep your mind and your ears open to what's worked for other people and to see whether those are good techniques for you.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

I like it. So learning from other people that have been that are beyond where you are.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Yes, but they're not the boss of you. I think where we go, I think there's value in us all telling our recovery story to the newcomer because it's an example. But I think we need to approach it not as in I'm telling you what you have to do, but as in for your consideration, for your consideration, here's some techniques that work for me. Here's some ideas you might want to think about. And that's very different approach and sort of attitude than you have to do it my way or you're gonna fail. And that's how I think about it. That it's valuable to hear stories, but it's got to be delivered in an openness way, in a for your consideration tone and manner.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I love that. Yeah, because we learn from other people. And so that that makes a lot of sense. Take whichever consciousness is take the fish, eat the fish and leave the bones. I mean it's just take what you can use and not the rest of it. So let's think about your unique perspective in the legal pro profession. How common is substance abuse disorder or use disorder among attorneys, and why is it often hidden?

Addiction In The Legal Profession

SPEAKER_02 21:16

It the the addiction rate, the substance use disorder rate of attorneys is double the national average for every drug. I don't think that's going to surprise most of the viewers, but it is. And there's, I think there's multiple reasons for that. One of them is that it's high stress work, right? And it often is at a high pace. People are working a lot of hours. If you don't really have the time to take a breath and sit back and think about am I happy with this? Am I happy with my job? Is there anything I want to improve? If you're just running 24, 7, seven days a week with few breaks, it's hard. It's easy to turn to the short term relief of a substance because you don't have time for the long term relief of actually addressing any issues that are going on. But it's also high stress work in that lawyers are expected to be perfect, right? You can't make a mistake. Then there's the deadline issue you Don't have control. Oh, the sun's in my face. There you go. You don't have control over your calendar a lot of times, right? You think you're gonna do this week, and then ex parte motion comes in, or a partner gives you a new project. So there's a lot of stress and anxiety that can make substances attractive. But then also there's that fear sometimes of being found out when you do develop a problem. A lot of people have concerns about what if my boss found out I had an alcohol or other drug. Let me emphasize alcohol's a drug. Okay. Alcohol or other drug problems. So sometimes attorneys are concerned about, let's say, going to their local AA meeting in their town that some it's supposed to be anonymous, but that word would leak out or some there's professional concerns. But for attorneys, there are specific attorney groups. Most bar associations, county bar associations, have a lawyer's assistance program. And a lot of them have meetings specifically for lawyers. And they certainly have resources and other information that people can take advantage of. So there are there are some ways to address that, but it's a it's just a high stress job, and therefore it's got double the addiction rate for all drugs.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

That's amazing. And worth they, what role do ethics rules play when it's a struggle with lawyers?

SPEAKER_02 23:59

When you think about rules like competence and diligence, if you start, let's say, for example, asking for extensions from opposing counsel or filing for continuances with a court, essentially because of your substance use, because you've gotten behind in your work because you had a hangover and you didn't get as much done, or you were up for three days and then you had a crash and you didn't get the work done. If you're doing any of those requests, that is that's a violation of the ethics rules because you can't delay the litigation for personal reasons. It can only be for reasons advantageous to your client, right? There are also often a rule about you can't, you can't have your personal physical or mental conditions impact your ability to represent the client claimant, the client, or else you should get out of the case or not accept a case. Well, mental condition is an addiction. Addiction is a mental health disorder. And so if that's driving your case management, if you're not returning calls to the clients because you're behind, because you've been using alcohol or other drugs, all of those kind of scenarios can impact your, it can be ethics rules violations.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Okay, interesting. And so there it but there's so much stigma around addiction. How does this open recovery help reduce shame and encourage people to seek help?

Ethics Risks And Impaired Practice

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Yeah, so open recovery can mean a lot of different levels. Like when I talk to people, it doesn't have like, for example, my first public announcement of my addiction was an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal. I used to do math and I was a judge. You don't have to be that open. Okay. There's the levels of open. But being open and telling your story and having people see your success can be a reassurance and a hope for people. And it's not just the person struggling, it's I also really think about their friends and family, right? Because friends and family can get so discouraged. I've had people message me when I that they'll say something like, When I found out that you recovered from methamphetamine, long-term addiction, at 32 years old, it made me more hopeful that it's not too late for my daughter or not too late for my son, that kind of thing. So having our stories out there can be a way to also help reduce stigma. I try to use that judge title as a way to get people to realize it's who I was in my behavior when I was in the middle of active addiction. That's not really the essence of who I was because the drugs distorted my choices and what I was doing. But in recovery, look, I'm you wouldn't know me from a non-using drug-using person if you met me. Does this look like somebody who shot meth for 15 years? No. And so it's to try to say that the stigma is misplaced because the person is deserving of help and can be a contributing valuable member of society if we help them. But it is also trying to remind people addiction is a medical disorder, right? It's a mental health disorder. It's like we go back and forth between saying, oh, yeah, it's a disease and it's your fault. And why are you not getting better, even though we haven't really offered you evidence-based treatment of an appropriate length, but you should just get better on your own. So there's this back and forth that America does between it's a disease and it's your fault, and therefore we shouldn't help you. And so I try to use my my recovery story as an example of why we should offer help. It's the judge, I use that judge title as a tool. It just helps people understand how robust recovery can be if only we give people the resources they need to get out of that horrible, miserable hole of addiction.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Amazing. Yeah, and having those different options of different programs is very helpful as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Yes. Although I really wish we we had treatment on demand, right? We talk like everybody can get treatment if they want it, and that's simply not true. If you don't have insurance or money in some parts of the country, it's literally impossible. But also to get treatment of a good length, even with insurance, a lot of times it's 28 days, and that's not enough for everybody. And so there's a lot of a lot of holes in our treatment system that we don't always acknowledge. Or we'll give people so, for example, sometimes a mom will say to me, My daughter's tried everything. She's been to rehab eight times. And when I ask questions, what happened was she was offered the same thing eight times. Nobody ever did an analysis to see did she also have depression, did she also have PTSD, or what about the pro the plan, the first seven times didn't work. What can we do to try to find a better fit for her or to help her in a new way? And so there's a lot of problems in our treatment system. And I try to talk about those as well to encourage encourage people to support broader-based treatment options for everyone. The truth is it's actually in the long run less expensive for us to provide effective treatment for people than the way we're doing it now.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

It sounds like we're not most of our programs are only treating one thing at a time as opposed to the person.

Reducing Stigma Through Open Recovery

SPEAKER_02 29:01

That's right. There are more that will do that individualized assessment. There are more that will do what's now called dual diagnosis or co-occurring disorder, where you have addiction and depression or bipole or whatever, but it's not the majority and it's and not everyone can get access. So the person who's got the substance problem feels like they failed when really they weren't offered a fair chance at getting well because they weren't given the sort of the robust treatment that would actually help them. And it frustrates the friends and family too, because they don't know what else to do. They feel like they've tried everything and it's not working. So it doesn't work on multiple levels, including that when people are uninsured and let's say they have overdose, there's ambulance costs and ER calls. It's very, it's a and then incarceration as our solution to the drug problem, very expensive, very ineffective, has multiple long-term impacts on people. So we say addiction is a disease. The government says it's a brain disorder or mental health disorder. And then it says, but we're going to put you in jail for there's a lot of contradictions, a lot of ineffectiveness, a lot of wasted money that would that would be better used in other ways.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Okay, agreed. Agreed. It just seems like throwing people in jail is not always the right solution. So for somebody that's listening that may be struggling, or maybe they know someone who's struggling, what are the first practical steps or resources that they should know about?

SPEAKER_02 30:25

I love this question. So for friends and family, and that's the terminology that we use in the recovery space for friends and family, that old tough love idea or those interventions where you tell the person with the addiction, you are going to this treatment program today that I picked for you, that you had no input on today, and you're, you know, now, or else I'm cutting you off. That is not effective. It works for a small percentage of people. Everything works for a small percentage of people. But what is much more effective is called craft, community reinforcement and family training. Craft is based on positive reinforcement techniques, and it's based on creating a joint approach to helping them. So, for example, maybe it is appropriate for you to research treatment options and say to them, I found a couple of programs. Do any of these interest you versus you must do what I say? And there's a really excellent book based on craft, and it's called Beyond Addiction. And it's on Amazon and all the usual sites. It goes into a lot of explanation about what addiction is, about why it's hard to stop, about what friends and family can do and what they really can't do. And also about the self-care that friends and family need to do to for themselves to keep them emotionally healthy during what is a very difficult process. So I always recommend Beyond Addiction is an excellent book, and there's a workbook as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Fantastic. Fantastic. You've been in recovery for 30 years, sobriety and advocacy. What gives you the most hope when you're looking at the future of recovery?

Gaps In Treatment And Access

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Oh, that's interesting. There is definitely more support for individual plans and multiple pathways. SAMSA, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, now it explicitly endorses the individualized nature of recovery plans. That's the most effective. It does actually have information about what evidence-based treatment looks like so that people can review it and see if the facility they're considering meets the standard of what is evidence-based. And so the multiple pathways idea is more broadly accepted. The other interesting thing is that drug use is going down among the youth. Alcohol use is dropped significantly. Cannabis has increased, but not as much as alcohol has dropped. And so that's a positive. But we do need to do better. And we need part of it is about what's going to be preventative, right? And I will say the number one thing we could do to lower the US's very high addiction rate, one of the highest in the world, is to offer early mental health treatment to teenagers and kids. If we intervene early, their odds of developing an addiction are going to be less. So if they get early treatment for their depression or their anxiety or their ADHD or whatever it might be, or any trauma. And trauma is not just sexual assault or physical assault. It could be bullying. There's a variety of things that impact teens. It could be being excluded at school. If we intervene early, they're going to have a much lower chance of developing a long-term addiction problem. So that is better understood now than when I got sober. So these are the kind of things that give me some hope. On the other hand, there's been a slashing of the federal budget for treatment and other harm reduction and other research. The research budget for addiction has been slashed. So that's a negative. I'm hoping it's a short-term negative and not a long-term negative.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah, exactly. This has been incredibly informative. I appreciate you being here. I know that our listeners may want to reach out to you and learn from you or how best to connect with you.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Yeah, so my website is junkytojudge.com, and you can message me through my website and I will answer all messages. And it also does have like my opinion pieces, my Wall Street Journal and other pieces if you're interested. I'm on X at Mary Beth O underscore, and I'm on Blue Sky, Mary Beth O'Connor, and LinkedIn. And I will say my social media is exclusively substance use, addiction, trauma, mental health, and recovery. I do not post anything else. I do not click on anything else. I keep very narrowly focused. And I post the new studies that come out, opinion pieces, articles, and then my recovery thoughts. And so if people are interested in those topics, they can definitely find, follow me, and you will, I hope, find useful information.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Fantastic. I'll make sure that we have this.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

I'm sorry on my book. I apologize. From Junkity Judge is on Amazon and all the usual sites. And it's in all formats: the paper the paperback physical book, ebook, and audiobook.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Oh, fantastic. All right, great. We'll make sure we include links to all that in the show notes. Absolutely. And this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time of being here today. And I've enjoyed it as well. Thank you very much for having me. Thanks for joining me today for this episode. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, you can connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take the next step with a digital strategist to help you grow your law firm, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to Law Marketingzone.com to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, thanks for listening to Leadership in Law Podcast, and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.

Effective Help For Families: CRAFT

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Welcome to the Leadership in Law Podcast with host Marilyn Jenkins. Cut through the noise, get actionable insights and inspiring stories delivered straight to your ears. Your ultimate podcast for navigating the ever-changing world of law firm ownership. In each episode, we dive deep into the critical topics that matter most to you from unlocking explosive growth to building a thriving team. We connect you with successful firm leaders and industry experts who share their proven strategies in hard one wisdom. So whether you're a teason leader or just starting your journey as a law firm owner, the Leadership and Law Podcast is here to equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.