S04E166 Changes in the Legal Profession in 50+ Years with Mark C. Zauderer

The fastest way to lose your edge as a lawyer is to shrink your world down to a screen and a timesheet. We sit down with Mark Zauderer, a veteran New York trial and appellate lawyer known for high-stakes business and commercial litigation, to unpack what actually builds a lasting legal career: real training, real relationships, and the courage to bet on yourself.

Mark shares the leadership journey behind his book, “Counsel, The Courtroom Is Open,” including the moments that pushed him to finally write it, the formative experiences that shaped his confidence, and the practical reality of starting a boutique litigation firm with no money, no clients, and a whole lot of belief. We talk candidly about business development for lawyers the old-school way: bar associations, CLEs, community visibility, and becoming someone other lawyers trust with referrals.

We also dig into the harder questions law firm leaders wrestle with right now: how remote work changes mentorship, why billable hour pressure can warp incentives, and what gets lost when the “profession of law” starts acting like the “business of law.” Mark explains a simple but powerful boundary in legal ethics and client service, where client decisions end and lawyer judgment begins, then zooms out to justice as a human system for resolving conflict through courts, arbitration, and mediation.

Reach Mark here: 
https://www.markczauderer.com/
Book Mentioned: https://amzn.to/4unrLF6

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Leadership In Law Podcast with host, Marilyn Jenkins 
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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:35

From the lovely exposed world to building the private team, what can we do with successful firm leaders and industry experts? Whether you're a text leader or just starting or turning as a law firm owner. The leader's stuff in the law podcast is starting equip you with the knowledge and tools you need to build a successful and fulfilling legal practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Welcome to another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. I'm your host, Marilyn Jenkins. Please join me in welcoming my guest, Mark Zouter, to the show today. Mark is a well-known New York trial and appealate lawyer who's represented major corporations, prominent individuals, and a presidential cabinet secretary in significant business, financial, and commercial litigation. He is also a go-to source for media commentary on high-profile trials, appearing on MSNBC, CNBC, Fox Business TV, ABC, NBC News, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Reuters, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, and the LA Times. Over the span of a decade, he was also the subject of nine interviews on PBS. He resides in Westchester County, in Fire Island, New York, and in Nevis, West Indies. I'm excited to have you here, Mark. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

It's a pleasure to be with you. Good to see you and your audience. I'm delighted to talk to them, although I don't see them. So thank you for having me and happy to share thoughts with you.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Fantastic. I love it. Tell us a bit about your leadership journey. You've been doing this a long time.

Writing A Life Into A Book

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Time creeps up on you. It seems to accelerate. So it has been a while, well over 50 years, in the trenches, as they say, in the courts and in the both trial courts and the appellate courts. And I never really thought about tying it all up and what does it mean and about leadership until relatively recently, because we just go about our daily lives, all of us. And I think I first had a notice, a notion of writing a book, which I did, and my book is was just released and being distributed by Simon and Schuster very widely. It's called Council, The Courtroom is Open, which is what court officers say throughout New York at 9.30 every morning when they unlock the doors, and as I say, people come in to seek justice. So I thought that was an apt title for the book. As I say in the preface, the first thought I had about sizing it all up came to me about 20 years ago, where I soon dropped the idea. I was having conversations with the former governor of New York, Mario Cuomo. I was president at the time of a major bar association called the Federal Bar Council, and he was getting an award, and he was going to be making a speech in the grand ballroom of the Woldo Fistoria Hotel in New York, where thanks just before Thanksgiving, 2,000 judges and lawyers for the last 60 years would have a lunch. And he hadn't really spoken to lawyers in a while. And he's a he was a lawyer himself and very proud of the fact that he was a lawyer. And he was drafting his speech, and he called me a few times and he'd read me portions and he'd say, Is this too serious? Is it too long? Is it too political? And I gave him my thoughts. And then after a while, he started to ask me about my own life. And for about an hour, he was a very interested, not only interesting, but an interested person. And he said at the end, Mark, you ought to write your autobiography. And I didn't take it seriously at the time. And then about 18 years later, I was talking to my son, and he said, Dad, you ought to write your autobiography. And so about two years ago, I started to do it. It went pretty quickly, and I realized I had some interesting, many interesting experiences in my life. Also some challenges that had nothing to do with Lord growing up, having had my parents divorced and the effects of that on my life, which I wrestled with and I decided to talk about very candidly in the book. Probably the first third of the book talks about my life. And I did have some very fortunate experience growing up. By chance or otherwise, I knew some very famous people. I discussed them in the book. And I do talk about my childhood in Brooklyn, New York, and my best friend Bobby Miller, who is playwright Arthur Miller's son, who was married to Marilyn Monroe. I was very close with Bobby. And I tell an incident that we were in downtown Brooklyn one day, and it was the fall of 1960. And my friend Bobby said to me, Look at up on the truck there on the back of the pickup truck, there's the man running for president. And we walked up and shook hands with John F. Kennedy. It was in November of 1960. And as I wrote the book, I traced my life in this little school

Brooklyn Roots And A JFK Moment

SPEAKER_02 5:40

in Brooklyn off to college where I thought I was going to take in a completely different track in my life. I actually was working professionally as a rock and roll disc jockey. And I worked on five stations. And I dressed out a break on a major 50,000 watt AM station in Albany, New York. Did some fill-ins, then I was sent down to what I would say is the equivalent of a baseball farm club in a smaller market to have a regular show and hone my presentation. And in those days, this was the only real source of music for young people. Remember, FM radio was just in a very early state of development. And we didn't have podcasts, we didn't have all the sources of music that we have today. So if you were a teenager, you'd listen to one of a few stations in town that had rock and roll music. And so everybody was listening to the same music. And it's funny, today, I sometimes talk to people from my generation, and we still remember all the songs from the late 50s and 1960s. Just sing them easily. It's been a long journey, and I was grateful for the suggestion ultimately that my son made that I write it down my life. And the book recounts, the recounts, as I say, my earlier life and after actually look, they were not deferring for Vietnam service. They were not deferring disc jockey, so I figured I'd do something else. And ended up in lost almost by accident, really. And in the book I talk about my journey through law. And if there's one thing that if there's one decision that I made that I think was the correct one for me, and I want to share it with your listeners, only because it may be meaningful for them, was a decision at some point. I was an associate at a very fine law firm in New York City, but something didn't feel right. Not about the particular firm, just the structure. And I took a leap of faith with four other people and started a law firm. At the book I talk about this and how, and I think back, maybe the naivete assisted me in moving forward successfully. But we did this with no money, with no clients, and my job was to go to a bank, and I discussed in the book how I talked to these fancy bankers and got a line of credit. And so that's the kind of thing that taught me a lesson about having confidence in yourself at yourself. So I think my life has been a lot of do-it-yourself.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

I love that. I love that. Just power through, power through and do what you can do.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

You have had a remarkable career in trial work, appellate litigation, media commentary. When you look back, what do you think allowed you to build that success in such an evolving profession?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

First of all, I was blessed to have very good training. I went to

From Radio DJ To Lawyer

SPEAKER_02 8:44

a good law school and that was interrupted for a year. Actually, it was a very good thing. I it was a great experience. I was a I was not in favor of the Vietnam War, and the New York City school system had a program that they worked out with the draft boards where they allowed they needed teachers in the ghetto schools in New York City. I took a leave of absence, and that was really, and I taught fifth-grade kids for a year.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

In a minority area, and it was an eye-opening experience. Uh, and I learned to relate to these kids, and vice versa. Uh, and I think it really gave me a good perspective in life. And I went back to law school. I managed to get a clerkship with a federal judge in the U.S. District Court in New Jersey. I was then offered a job for a judge on the Third Circuit, but I declined to do that, and I wanted to get back to New York City, and I began as an associate at a large law firm. And I think to answer your question, that the training there was instrumental uh in helping me navigate the world to co. And when I went out on my own with four people, uh and we practiced in a boutique for many years, there was some change in personnel over the years, we had a handshake. We never had a written partnership agreement, which is like shoemaker's children. We never advised that. But at the end of each year, some one of the five partners would write some numbers on a napkin, go around and do a little shuttle diplomacy, figure out how do we would whack things up. And it was we were fortunate because the bounty was plenty, and that made things a little easier. But I also felt, and this is something I would pass on to anyone who's interested, and I'll contrast what was the case then with what we see in law firm practice today. We knew that if we were going to succeed, we had to do something beyond just our cases. We had to be part of the legal community. We joined bar associations. I learned that I knew quite a bit at an early age about drawing business cases. I organized CLEs, and I would always associate myself with a very well-known experienced lawyer. So I'd be the moderator. Nobody really knew me at the time, and I'd put some of New York's or the nation's best known lawyers on a panel. And in those days, flyers would go out, and my picture would be bigger as the organizer than all of these lawyers who I knew much less than them at that point in my career. So over the years, the decades, I got involved in the court system, got to know many of the judges. The top judges in New York relied on me for various projects. Twenty-five years ago, I headed a blue ribbon commission called the Commission on the Jury in New York, and we took a sweeping look at the whole jury system in New York, where over 60,000 people are called for jury service every year. We issued a 120-page report and made recommendations for changes, most of which were adopted by the chief judge. In fact, I told her at the time, and I knew her, I said, You sure you want me to do this? Because like bar associations often do studies, they issue a report with recommendations, and they end up on a shelf. Gathering dust. Chief Judge said, Don't Mark, if you do this commission, whatever your commission recommends, we'll implement. And she was Judge K, Judith K, who was a great judge and a great administrator, uh, and she was true to her word. So the central point here is if you're going to be entrepreneurial or be on your own, don't just be narrow and expand your career. Now that's very hard today for young lawyers. People are talking about it. I think about lawyers who got out of law school during COVID and they will work remotely. The technology was there, the culture changed, remote work is so common

Building A Boutique Through Relationships

SPEAKER_02 12:55

today. So we're now six, five, five years later. Some of these lawyers are five or six years out of law school, and their whole law life is staring at a two-dimensional screen. With Zooms from morning to afternoon to night, they are completely isolated from the experience that I was fortunate to have as a young lawyer. We would go out to lunch with partners most days. If a partner didn't invite us to lunch, we'd get together as a small group of associates. We'd go out to a pub and have lunch. Some of the people I went out to lunch there later became general counsel of major companies. And I got professional work from them because we were who knew where I would be or they would be. But if you're an associate operating remotely, and we have some firms that just operate entirely remotely without offices today, I have to become aware that you're not networking, you're not making your contacts. And I tell young associates, I suggested them, look, if you're not making contacts now, you may want to change jobs in four or five years. If you're out there, if you join a bar association, you'll meet people, you may have someone you can call that you knew or you worked on with a case. Many of my early contacts, for which my work had expanded greatly, were senior lawyers and other law firms who I would see in meetings, in-person meetings in a law office, we'd be on the same side of a case strategizing, talking about the next court appearance. We'd maybe meet before we go to court. Today, the associate who may have supervision from a partner doesn't even meet doesn't even get together with that partner. They're just seeing each other on a screen.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

And I started out with my colleagues. We made the rounds of these law firms to chat with these people and say, look, we're starting a firm. And there was a there was actually a business concept there. It was a litigation boutique. We were one of the first boutiques in New York. Maybe the second one. And there was a concept there. I guess we would call it a business concept. We didn't think of law being a business in those days. That's a whole other topic I've spoken to. And it's in the book, there's a chapter called What Has Happened to Law Firms. So if anyone's interested, they'll see my perspective on it. But the the law firm and these activities that we engaged in were a breeding ground for growing relationships. And that was central to our work. So as a boutique firm, our message was there were five, and we soon expanded, we had associates, but we said, look, we can do we can be an appendage. You had a tender offered case, we'll send a team, we'll do the depositions. We could by not trying to be all things to all people, those maybe having a corporate lawyer and a litigator, and we'd be spreading ourselves thin. We could handle work of a greater complexity than if we were all doing something different. But we're all litigators trained in large firms, and these were people that had very good reputations. And we went we walked in the offices of some of these major law firms, we do partners, we told them this is what we're doing. And the other thing, which was an interesting, really important aspect of boutique practice, because we weren't all things told, people could refer

Remote Work And The Networking Gap

SPEAKER_02 16:30

work to us without fear that we're going to take their clients to litigation, we're not going to be doing the corporate work or the estates work or whatever. And that's pretty much true today. So in in 54 years now of practice, including my clerkship, I took a detour about 25 years ago. I became a senior partner for two years in the world's largest law firm. And it was a good firm. And I was high on top of the food chain. But it wasn't for me. It just was not. It's like working for a corporation. It's not the same in the sense that you have a reporting line to somebody. You're your own person. But you're you there's this whole administrative overlay that can get in your way in a large firm. You have conflicts all the time, and you can't because I were over 50 years or 40 something since I went out on my own. I work a hundred percent of the time on matters of my own origination. And in a firm like that, you may be servicing the corporate partner. Now you're accountable in a way, if you're a service lawyer, not doing your own work, you're accountable, say, to the corporate partner, not just the client who brought it in. You may have the corporate says, I think we should do this. And you're not independent. When your clients are of your own origination, they either like you or they don't. They come to you and they take your advice, which helps me help them, uh, I think in a very important way. So I'm touching on a number of things, but those are have been central to me from the beginning, those concepts. And we have a debate here, we often talk about on the ethics battles, about let's say if you're handling a litigation, what is the realm of the client's decision-making responsibility, and what is that of the lawyers? And I'm a strong advocate in placing the line, it's a fuzzy line, but I'll give you an example that many lawyers have have encountered, which is they're representing a lawsuit, the client's very motivated, angry. And the defendant you sue gets a lawyer, calls you up as the plaintiff's lawyer, and says, uh, I want an extension, please. I'm just getting in the case. It's not an injunction, emergency matter. It's time to answer a complaint. It's going to be a long litigation. And you say as a lawyer, I'll see, I'm going to ask my client. To me, that's not a client decision. That's a lawyer's decision. And there are many examples of that. I analogize this to a surgeon who is going to undertake an operation. It's certainly up to the patient, family, whoever is communicating with the doctor about the scope of the operation, what options are, how serious an operation do we do. But once the operation is decided on, the client doesn't tell the surgeon where to place the scalpel. That's and by analogy, a lawyer brings to the table skills and experience to help the client and should be allowed to make certain decisions in consultation with the client and full disclosure of risks and benefits of different procedures. And the same is true when you're handling a litigation.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

I love that. And I love the way you your journey is taking you to where you are, because it seems like the most successful attorneys I've spoken with always had something they did differently than everybody else. Like you took the one year off and

Independence And Lawyer Client Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 20:15

did teaching, and it gave you a different perspective. When you started your boutique firm, you did networking, which is marketing, and got out there and made those relationships. I think that's missing a lot. And then a few people I've talked to did a lot of volunteer work. And it's totally different perspective. I think it adds into your perspective and your personality and how you approach people.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

I think that's very appreciated. That's right on. And by the way, talking about community, so when I did this book, which is now I see getting thousand in the first couple of days, well over a thousand ratings, all like four and five ratings. I'm not familiar with the system seeing all this stuff. It's got like a half five ratings and four. I'm pleased to see it that I've given something that people find, and there's some reviews, they find it useful. But any profits from this book are not going to me. They're being entirely donated to my son's charity that he started about four or five years ago called Grassroots Grocery. He appeared on the Digit Show about a month, a couple of months ago. They did a whole story on it. And what they do is food, great quantities of food come into the Bronx markets, but boom. That's where all the restaurants in New York buy their food, but a lot is left behind. And his organization picks up the food, and on Saturday, volunteers meet at a parking lot in the Bronx, New York, which is in many ways an underserved community. Hundreds of volunteers take this food, package it all together, and they distribute it directly into the communities where the food is most needed. And I'm very proud of Jim. He run he started it, he runs it, and he has now it's the organization's expanding and really performing a very important service. New York.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I love that. We'll have a link in the show notes. But what was the name of his charity again?

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Grassroots Grocery. Grassroots. Grassroots Grocery. There's a lot. If you go, if you put look at them on Google or you'll see a lot of their activity. How well it's being received and how needed. His name is Daniel Zauer, I shut.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I love that. We'll include that. Absolutely. It's a great thing. So let's talk a little bit about complex litigation and that sort of thing. And you've talked about justice as a human endeavor. With that, what do you mean by that, especially in the legal system that and often dual and transactional?

SPEAKER_02 22:54

The legal system is an imperfect institution. Litigation, which is part of it, was an alternative to war and violence. If you look back historically, as we developed legal systems and courts, we inherited ourselves from England in the US, but it's evolving to serve people. We've had first in the last 50 years the advent and expansion of arbitration as a alternative to courts, which has advantages. It has disadvantages as well. It's a whole topic. But we've then moved from arbitration. It still is performs very important function. But we have mediation, which is a situation that allows for resolution of disputes without

Donating Book Profits To Charity

SPEAKER_02 23:50

just having a winner and a loser, which typically is what occurs in court litigation or even arbitration. We find solutions to problems. And my introduction to the book, after explaining the title, Counsel the Courtrooms Open, I explain that conflict is an ever-present dynamic in society. We see it internationally, in our international disputes. We see it within our country. We see it in families. How we resolve conflict is such an important task in our society. And the court system plays a role, and within that, within litigation, of course, excuse me, we have other tools like arbitration, mediation. So I'm optimistic that we'll continue to refine and sharpen our tools, so to speak, to deal with conflict.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

I love that. So looking back, what lessons or values from earlier generations of lawyers do you think the profession needs most needs to preserve that they're losing right now?

SPEAKER_02 26:03

I'm glad you raised that. And there is a chapter on the book where I discuss my thoughts on that. Is law was a profession. We hear it referred to today as a business. To me, is unfortunate. Professionals, lawyers, doctors, accountants, the coin of the realm for them was once not money, but respect in the community. Law firms were run with a notion of ethics, not the morals of the marketplace. And by and large, I think law firms are

Justice And Modern Conflict Resolution

SPEAKER_02 26:40

ethical. But look what's happened to law firms, and this has changed. We talk about now the business of law. I thought it was the profession of law. Same thing in medicine and account accountancy. I think of doctors who, still, when I grew up, would make house calls with a little black bag and not end the day until they had seen the last patient in their home. I mentioned this recently. A few years ago, I saw a Super Bowl ad, and of course, client advertisers pay a lot of money, and it was in a for that, and they give it a lot of thought what they're gonna say. And it was a major accounting firm. And their message was, we're in the business of accounting. And I thought to myself, I thought you were in the profession of accounting, serving businesses. Look at in law firms, look at the incentives now for lawyers and the requirements. We had no billable hour requirement when I was an associate at a large law firm. We really didn't know how many hours we billed unless we added up daily in our timesheets, the number of hours that we put in over the course of a year. But there are now in many first requirements that lawyers bill at least 2,000 hours, which in many ways is unrealistic and it's an invitation to people to ban their hours. I don't know that I'm not accusing any particular firm or person, but if you think of the dynamic, to make your pay you've got to have 2,000 hours or your bonus, more than 2,000 hours. But that reflects an ethos that was not part of the profession of law when I started. And that has other consequences with the pressure on billable hours. Now these law lawyers have less time for the kinds of community activities that we talked about earlier, bar associations, the networking opportunities. And I think that's an unfortunate development in the practice of law. Things have become easier. We have AI, we have tools and all of that. That's got its own problems. But at the core of what the law profession was are these values that were critical to it that bound people together. Law firms were typically single city law firms. When people spent eight or nine years there to become partners, they were inculcated

Law As A Profession Not A Business

SPEAKER_02 29:06

with the firm culture.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Now we see firms growing internationally by aggregations of groups for whom the only qualification or requirement is certain busin dollars earned and bill and billable hours. That's the those are the metrics by which candidates for merger are judged, just like a business. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

And I don't think loyalty is valued or awarded like it used to be.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

So you attract the lawyer or a group of lawyers to your firm who have no loyalty to the firm they came from. And when they are with your firm, if their financial expectations are not met, they'll leave you and go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Which also breaks down the mentorship that it was always inherent in the law, right? When you were growing a firm, you mentored the associates. An associate expected to have a mentor. It's how you got better at what you did. And that's, I don't think, especially with the remote, I don't think that's a thing anymore.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

That's a very good point. Mentorship is so critical. And what occurs to me about mentorship when I think about it, is we are all the beneficiaries of the mentors who helped us. Now, what a mentor says may not be exactly right for you, but you have many mentors and you take a part of each mentor's advice that feels right for you, and you become, in many ways, as an experienced lawyer, the product of these different pieces of advice and different influences that come from more than one person because each little piece felt right for you and has become part of you.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

I love that. I love that. When you think of legacy, not just career success, but the impact that you leave behind, what matters most to you now after all you've done?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

First is the thought that I'm leaving something behind is not one I entertain because I want to go forever.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Love it.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Uh the book was actually very useful to me personally. Putting aside who might benefit from the thoughts in the book, which I hope they do, but it made me think about your question there. I think it's a life of satisfaction doing something that I allowed me to match whatever skills, attitudes that I had, skills and aptitudes, with something practical that certainly provided me with a living well beyond what I ever thought about or expected, but which that has now begun less important to me than the interaction with other lawyers who are less experienced. I have a number of lawyers I work with on all my cases. They're physically in the same office as I am in the same building. We typically meet almost daily, have a cup of coffee. What are you working on? What are you working on? These are cases that I've people have come to me and they're working with me. I enjoy introducing them to clients who increasingly have confidence in them and go to them directly and not just me. A good part of my practice is working with major law firms in some of the largest cases in the country. They will bring me in as co-counsel

Legacy Through Mentorship And Training

SPEAKER_02 32:30

at trial. They have dozens of lawyers working on the case, but they want to benefit from my trial experience, my experience picking juries in New York, for example, where the jury system is different from the way juries are picked anywhere else in the United States. It's a unique system. And so we have those, I have those opportunities. And to train those lawyers and give them a benefit of whatever experience I have.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Love that. It does sound like you've just been a gift to the legal profession, helping to grow in the way the advice that you've done and just how you grew your firm is admirable. I appreciate you being here. I know that our audience is going to want to reach out to you. We're going to include a book, a link to your book, but how can people connect with you, maybe follow what you're doing, get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_02 33:21

My name is I say Mark M-A-R-K Zouter Z-A-U-T-E-R-E-R. If you put my name in Google, you'll see pretty much my whole life. Uh I'm in LinkedIn, although I don't use social media very much. The book publisher wanted to put stuff in. A lot about books in terms of libel law, but I knew nothing about the book distribution industry and how much is on social media these days. So if you have my name in, you can go Dorf Nelson and Zouter as my firm, but you'll pick that up if you just put my name in Google. And if you have any thoughts about this interview, you can email me at mzouter at dorflaw.com. That's D-O-R-F-L-A-W dot com. Be happy to hear your thoughts. So thank you, by the way. I like your podcast and your interviewing, and I wish you well with it.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Thank you so much. And again, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

My pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

That's a wrap on today's episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. Before you go, I want to make sure that you know about something that could be a real game changer for your firm. If you've been doing the work, showing up, serving clients, but your marketing still isn't producing the caseload you know you deserve. That's exactly the problem Law Marketing Zone was built

How To Connect With Mark

SPEAKER_01 34:35

to solve. My team and I work exclusively with law firms, and we don't do cookie cutter. We build a strategy around your practice, your market, and your goals. More high-quality leads, better cases, less stress, and more profit. Head over to LawmarketingZone.com/slash book a call and book your free case growth session today. The link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next episode.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Leadership in Law Podcast. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. There's a whole community of law promoters out there facing similar challenges and striving for the things to test. Head over to our website at lawmarketingsmogue.com. And there to look with other listeners to access valuable resources and to stay up to date on the latest episode.com and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, keep living with big people and keep growing further.