The Underwire Podcast

Grief Debrief: How We Deal After Losing Loved Ones

• The Underwire Podcast • Episode 5

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On this episode, we’re diving into the deeply emotional topic of grief, focusing on the loss of loved ones.

Joining us is our special guest, John Wren.  The both of us have lost some pretty close people to us including siblings, a best friend, and a parent, and we're gunna talk about it. Wren is an ironman and triathlon athlete.  That's kinda cool. He's also vegan.  That's not that cool, but I respect it.  We’ve known each other for a very long time, and their experience with grief has offered me a lot of insight and support through my own stuff.

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In this episode, we share our personal stories and experiences with grief, particularly in losing loved ones. We explore the complex emotions that arise and how we’ve both navigated these challenging times—sometimes successfully, and other times, not so much.

We also discuss healthy coping strategies that have worked for us and emphasize the importance of seeking support, whether from friends, family, or professionals. Additionally, we offer practical advice that has personally helped us along the way, which we hope can be of assistance to others facing similar experiences of loss.

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT:

  • Personal experiences with grief and loss
  • The emotional rollercoaster that comes with grief
  • Coping strategies and the importance of support
  • Practical advice for those grieving the loss of a loved one

We hope this episode offers comfort and guidance for anyone dealing with the pain of losing someone close. Grief is a universal experience, but everyone’s journey is unique. Remember, it’s okay to seek help (and we encourage it), and there’s no right or wrong way to grieve. If you have any personal stories or questions, we’d love to hear from you!

Tune in and join the conversation on navigating the difficult but inevitable process of grieving.

Keywords: Grief, Loss, Coping Strategies, Mental Health, Emotional Well-Being, Support Systems, Personal Stories, Healing, Bereavement

DISCLAIMER: The Und


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Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Underwire podcast offering support where life needs it. I'm your host Jess, joined by my co-host Ryan. And on today's episode we're diving into a topic that every adult is definitely able to relate to. And that topic, unfortunately, is grief, specifically grief that's caused by losing a loved one. As I'm sure all of us already know and are very well aware, grief is extremely complex and is everything but black and white, filled with every type of emotion from sadness to anger to confusion. I mean, the list goes on. It's something that can severely impact our mental health and without. healthy coping strategies or support systems it can very easily lead us into a downward spiral of bigger issues including depression, anxiety, difficulty focusing. And that's all just the tip of the iceberg. So today, Ryan and I are joined by our special guest, my friend John Wren, and we all refer to him by his last name. Wren is an Ironman and triathlon athlete, which is extremely interesting and impressive all on its own. We could base an entire episode on that itself. However, today we'll be diving into some discomfort while discussing our stories of losing a whole bunch of loved ones due to various things. So buckle up, we're about to get into some heavy shit, but you know what? The only way that heavy shit gets any lighter is to talk about it. And that's the truth. Throughout this conversation, we're going to share some of our personal stories and experiences of how we have personally coped with grief from losing loved ones and emphasize the importance of seeking support. With that being said, it's worth emphasizing that none of us are experts or professionals regarding this and is simply just a conversation based off of our personal experiences and things that have helped us along the way. Remember, there is not a right or wrong way to grieve the loss of a loved one and healing is also not linear. It's just important to find something that will work for you and accept that it will take time and patience. And honestly, that will look different for everyone. All right, well that's enough waffling for me. Let's get into the episode. Well, Ren, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate you. Yeah, only you will I open up old wounds for. I appreciate it and record it. I really, I really appreciate it. You know this is going to be on the internet, so you know you can't take it back. Jess, why don't you tell me how you pitched this to Ren, that you even wanted to talk to him about. this on a microphone. Well, Ren has been a very big supporter of my projects along the. And I let him know that I was doing a podcast talking about some some deep and heavy topics. And him and I both have a lot of laws to talk about. So he was nice enough to want to share his vulnerabilities. And that's what led us here today. Well, that was very nice of him. I'm happy to hear it, but yeah, I didn't really think about that. Well, thank you for being here today. Seriously, we appreciate it. Yes, thank you very much. All right, guys. Well, I'm excited to hear about your trauma. So, all right, well, today we're gonna share our own personal stories and experiences. with grief, specifically in regards to grieving the loss of loved ones. We got a lot of content for you. We're going to explore how grief can lead to all sorts of feelings and emotions, and how we've successfully, or maybe not so successfully, dealt with them. We'll discuss healthy coping strategies that have worked for us, the importance of seeking support, and we'll offer some practical advice that has personally helped us along the way for others facing similar experiences of loss. So, a lot of heavy shit. So, it's a good time episode. It's a good time episode, but you know what? It's important. It's important to talk about. these things because when you don't talk about them, that's when it becomes way heavier. So somebody's got to do it. Might as well be us. Would you say people should start their day listening to this? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know what? What happens? Somebody could be going through a really hard time and need to hear about people that have experienced the same thing just to know that they are not alone, and that might bring somebody a some sort of sense of comfort. And we're also not alone. Is that true? It's true, yes. So today we have Jon Wren, good friend of mine. Wren, thank you for joining us today. Well, the pleasure is all mine for opening up Old Bloons with you guys today. So, it should be fun. Should be lighthearted and full of But no, I'm Jon Wren. Everyone calls me Wren since I was 10 years old. Been into bands, been to like a show or two. I've known Jess for like half of our lives, which is funny because we were talking recently. I vaguely remember the day that I met her, which is like the weirdest thing that just clicks in my head, which I believe was at like a Newfound Glory show. Former Muay Thai kickboxer turned marathoner, now five-time Ironman. So yeah, I'm a weird conglomeration. It doesn't make any sense. But that's me in a nutshell. Can you now let's get into the topic at Tell us why I asked you to be on this specific episode. Can you share a little bit about your regarding your experiences with grief? Well, I'm assuming that the two major ones are 10 years ago. I lost my best friend. Not something I... that's like my hetero life mate, straight up. Like when people say best friend, there's usually a lot of times where you're like, oh, it's one of my best friends. It's like, you know, a group of people. This was like, no, the number one homie, like soulmate type person. And unfortunately, two years ago, I also lost one of my All three of my sisters are younger than me. I lost the middle one, Nicole, to a few years of struggling with addiction and resulting in a self-induced overdose, which took her life. So I'm assuming that those are the two reasons that we are why I'm guest of choice for this episode. So whenever, whatever questions you have, I'm here to answer, and hopefully it helps someone out. First of all, again, thank you because I know that talking about these things is not easy, but as I was saying before, it is really important to talk about. So thank you for being open to being vulnerable and sharing your experiences with us. For me, my most personal experience with loss is that last year I lost my mom. She died of a, well, her cause. of death was that she had a, but really, she just, you know, never took care of herself. And then I lost my two big brothers, one from a heart attack. Again, didn't really take care of himself too well. Didn't, you know, ever wanna was the typical dude, like, never wanted to go to the, always just pretended like everything was okay. And then my oldest brother, I believe he, like your sister, Ren, overdosed, but we think it was on purpose. So we've got a lot, we've got a lot to talk about, you know, a lot of really great things. As you were talking about, I can tell that I'm fucked up myself because the way that I handle traumatic things are like people talking. about their traumas. And I feel like I've been like this my entire life. When you started talking about people dying, my immediate reaction is just I start laughing, and it's not funny at all. People will tell me, oh yeah, so and so just died. I just start laughing, which has gotten me into a lot of trouble. But even with my own stuff, it's like oh, let me just laugh about it. And that's just my body's response to terrible things. So we've got that there. So just, if there's a little bit of, just know that it's just my body's response to dealing with things that are uncomfortable for me. So just putting that out there, it's not actually funny. I actually run into a lot of people that have that as a coping mechanism. They will laugh at stuff like that because it's easier to laugh at it than to cry about it. Again, I mean maybe it's not the best one, but you know, if it prevents you from breaking down, then you know. I just sent you a text the other day about this because you were like give me a. And I was like well I have a dead best friend and sister. And you were like what the fuck? So I mean like it's not funny in any way, shape, or form, but it's just the way sometimes I like have to let something out like that just to like kind of cope with it. So I think laughing about it is it's a. That's all it is it's a. It definitely is a defense mechanism for sure. But, like, you know, obviously you know that if I'm sitting here laughing because of something like that, immediately in your brain you're not going to, oh, why is she laughing? Because you know me personally. But somebody I wasn't as close to started telling me about, oh, yeah, this person died in my family, and I just start cracking up laughing. And it'd be like, that's really messed up, she's so rude. No, I'm not doing that, that's involuntary. I'm sorry. So back to you, do you mind going into a little bit more depth about how the death of your sister and your best friend, who I was also friends with? as well John you're talking about John Barlow, right? Yeah, I mean I have to go back a smidge. Well, I have to go back like 12 years. Before John died, I went through and no one really talks about this but like grieving the loss of love. It sounds corny to say now, but like this person I dated at the end of high school and first year of college I thought was like that was it. This is gonna be the relationship for the rest of my life. And we had the worst breakup. And I think I mourned the loss of like what I thought I had and lost forever and was never gonna get again and whatnot. And I spent a lot of time crying about that. And I think I feel like I wasted all my tears. And so for like 12 years, I barely cried about anything. I had other friends that were not as close as John that committed suicide. I had family members, like my great-grandfather, passed away and I was sad, but I never like fully grieved them. And then when John died, I think the weight of his death was so massive that I had to like uncork the bottle and like let it all out. And like I still cry about John. Last year, I was like listening to a Blink-182 song from that new album, and I hear Mark Hoppus say, like, I miss you in a certain way. And I'm like boom, like immediately like a bazillion images of John just flash and I'm breaking. down driving to But with John, I always thought he was like indestructible because he bounced back from some of like the worst shit that I've ever seen. And so when he actually died, it was like a new reality like hitting me in the face. Cause I was like if John dies, like anyone can die. Like I said, it still has me fucked up today over it. I mean I'm more comfortable with it now, but I think John's passing allowed me to start to regulate my emotions when it came to grieving better because I think I bottled shit up for so long. I've cried since. And I think that's healthy to let it out. Like I'm not just holding it in like I used to. Cause when I would hold stuff in it would eventually boil up, and it would come out in like anger. It would come out in some other way that wasn't productive or good for anybody. And I think John's, if there's one good thing that came from his death, is it allowed me to voluntarily or involuntarily, it's like I regulate my emotions when it comes to grieving completely different than I did before. And I think now I'm at a point where I would say I'm comfortable with, I hate it but like I can do it. Do you think that that kind of thing helps you in not just grieving, but just in general? Like, emotionally, are you able, do you feel like you take in day-to-day situations? differently because that's one small facet of life, right? Being sad. But do you feel like that helps you across the spectrum of your emotions? Do you feel like you're a more well-balanced person? As a—well, I think just through, in terms of like the rest of it, I think growing and learning, because there's a lot of shit that I look back just at my teenage and early twenties and whatnot, and I'm like I handled that like a complete idiot. There was so much stuff that I would go back and like choke the like 20-year-old me for thinking or acting or handling it the way I did. I don't know if John's death specifically did anything beyond the grieving. process Like I just knew how to I mean I could talk about John for hours, but I think one of the things I got from him when he passed was, what would John Barlow do? Because he was the guy that I used to confide in with everything. If I asked him, hey, I have this fucking stupid idea, should I do it? Sometimes his answer was, yeah, go do the stupid idea. You only live once. And so, and he was the type that always took the chance. And I think that his death specifically, I took a piece of him to try to be like, what would John do in this situation? Sometimes I don't do what John would do in this situation because it'll get me in trouble, but I don't necessarily think that it factored into and maybe it did. Maybe I'm just not putting that piece together. But I think when he died, it specifically helped me to and handle grief better than I ever had before. Because like now, that's probably the one I don't know if it was anything like machismo. I was like, oh men don't cry or anything like that. I just think that I bottled stuff up for so long that I think he just allowed it. Now there's no cork. Like I don't bottle it anymore. His death is like that catalyst of me allowing that out. And that probably does weigh into other aspects of my life because instead of bottling it and just getting angry at shit. It's free to come out, and I don't care who sees it or hears about it or anything like that. If it's one of those moments where I think of something like, oh, I just want to talk to John and I fucking start tearing up, I don't give a shit. You know, it is what it is. So, like, that's something different that happened from his death and beyond. So, maybe as I'm speaking, maybe it has affected other aspects of my emotions just because I don't bottle everything up anymore and I don't build any kind of like rage from holding it in too much. Yeah, I think that that is a really important thing to know about yourself, and I think that's also really awesome. that even though something so sad and traumatic happened, you're able to take something and learn and grow from it about yourself and be able to help others with maybe the same thing. You know, and I feel like for men especially, I'm sure as you grow up you're not taught how to handle your emotions. We're not taught that in school. Nothing that we need to develop any sort of emotional maturity is taught within the schooling system. So you need to kind of figure that shit out on your own. And I feel like for men, I mean I don't know from personal experience, but from what it seems like from all of my male friends, it seems like there's a lot. of stigmas against feelings and showing your emotions. And I just think that that's a really great thing that now you've gotten to a point where you know if you don't express your feelings or have some sort of support or whatever you need to do, it's just gonna get bottled up inside and get worse. Yeah, I think it's sad because I think men are taught, like as a whole, like what's masculine is, you know, you don't cry, you suck it up, you do this, that, and the other thing. And that's fucking terrible. Like people become alcoholics because of that shit and because they don't let it out, so they do something else to. And I'm like a proponent of saying there's no right or wrong way of grieving. I just think, as long as it doesn't include self-harm, if it starts to get into self-harm or you start to do, you're like, oh, I'm gonna start turning to alcohol or anything like that, that's when I think you've made a But that's the thing, is like, it's really stressful on us. Like men don't cry, be a man, like that whole thing, social stigmas. But I wish men would find this shit out in their like late teens and early 20s because I think it would probably prevent them from doing a lot of stupid shit. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think as the generations go down the line, I think it's it is getting. better and better. I think that the generation under us, I feel like there is more of an emphasis on getting whatever mental help you need. I think there's more of a support system for men and women equally to share your feelings and figure it out. Unlike people like our dads, who just really just suck it up. My dad, just seeing him, he only knows how to handle being angry or being happy. There's no in between. So if he's feeling anything else, he takes it out on the world. It's just he's just angry. If he's upset, he's angry. There's no differentiation between the two because he doesn't, he wasn't taught how. And you know, you can give somebody. a little bit of I guess empathy and compassion. But at the end of the day, they are still an adult and need to figure that out. I just think that it has been getting better as the generations go on. People are a little bit better with being taught how to manage their emotions in a more healthy way. And I just I think that that is really great. And we have to encourage people to do that and figure out their shit. Jess, what are some things that you think are important for people to avoid when grieving? Just because it sounds like you both have been through a lot recently. And I'm sure every step of the way you weren't doing things that you. look back and are happy that you did. I know, Ren, you're saying you know this was kind of like the turning point for you where you had had gone through other stages of grief, probably unfulfilled with actually getting to process them, and that your friend passing really helped you be able to get to that point. But, Jess, do you feel like with your mom passing away that there are parts you know, just overall depression, I would imagine, had to come into play that are maybe rejecting the help of people? Or were there anything like that that you would advise people to avoid, even though it's probably easier said than done? Yeah, I mean, it's so difficult because there are so many emotions related to grief. And you know it's not something that ever goes away. It's just something that evolves and changes and that you have to live with for the rest of your life. It's inevitable that every person is going to be dealing with grief at some point in their lives. And I really feel like, like Ren said earlier, everybody deals with grief in their own way. And there's no real right or wrong way to deal with that, as long as it is a healthy way. And for me, I am lucky; I had a very good, I have a very good support system. I have a lot of people that I can trust, that I feel safe with, a lot of friends. that I would consider to be family. I really relied on that. You know, I have a therapist that I've been seeing for years and years and years. You know, that helps. It's easy to, when you're in the midst of it all, like everything is just a blur. And sometimes just getting through the day is the hardest. And when you're in the thick of it, like right after something like that happens, it's so traumatic. And it's just, it really is just this explosion of so many different emotions. Sometimes you just want to lock yourself in your bedroom and not come out. Sometimes you I don't know. For me, I can say that I just really wanted to be in the presence. of other people at all times. You know I live alone; I'm a single lady. You know I just wanted to be with other people. So to anyone that was that was a part of that for me, I thank you. And I appreciate that because that's really what got me through all of that. But I don't drink, and I don't do drugs and stuff. And I can imagine that for people that do have those types of vices, it being a lot easier to fall into destructive downward spirals. And I have a lot of empathy for that. But still, it is your own personal responsibility to make sure that you're good. It's not anybody else's responsibility to manage your emotions for you. So whatever. It is you just have to figure out what works for you. And really, I think that the biggest, biggest thing for me going through any of that was the support system honestly, like to help keep my head above water. Ren, what would you say with all of that? I know that was a long-winded answer. It's ADHD at work. To cycle back to your first episode, oh I know. Yeah. But no, I think the support system thing is good. I know that when John passed, because so many people knew him, I had a lot of people reach out to me about that. Because as soon as he passed, I go, 'Shit, Ren and they would call me, like people that I didn't think would call me, people. I haven't been friends with in a few years, call me to be like, Hey man, if you need anything, and that really, like, I've always been like my friends' biggest cheerleaders, and I've always tried to be there for them. But after John's passing, I noticed myself a lot more. I reach out to people and it's 100% sincere. I'm like, hey, if you just need about some fucking grief off of someone, give me a call. I was like, I'd rather you call me than do something stupid and sincere in that. And it almost doesn't even, it doesn't even have to be my, like, close nucleus of friends. I just know how it is. And I've always put myself out there being like, call me and if someone calls me at three o'clock in the morning and they're like, Hey, I'm going through it right now. And you said to call you. I will get up at three o'clock in the morning and talk someone off the ledge if that's what they need, because I know I know how much it sucks. Like I said, like, and Nikki are like one A and one B of like the worst days of my life. And so when John passed, I know the gravity of that. That was the first time I ever had to deal with anything like that. And like I said, I had great grandfather pass away. I had other friends. I went to school with 900 people, so like someone from my fucking graduating class like dies like every three days at this point. But once John like passed, that was like the first time like I had to like deal with something like that head on. So now I don't want anyone ever have to feel like they have to deal with it alone. So I think the support system is a huge thing. I think your friends know you better than yourself. Because when you're grieving hard, you're not thinking clearly. And if your friends are there and saying, 'Hey, I know how you normally operate they can guide you down that path somewhat, getting back to normal. I mean let's be real, what happened you know before January 6, 2014, and after January 6, 2014, are two completely fucking different me's. But I think friends have allowed, have guided me back to being normal. They did it when my sister passed away, and I posted about it, a bunch of people immediately called me, texted me, messaged me on Instagram. A lot of people were sincere and like, " Hey, if you need anything, give me a call I used it. I called people. So I think, yeah, I think your support says, I think your your friends are one of, if not the most important thing you can lean on. Obviously, therapy, if you feel like you're spiraling, like there'll be always above, you know, most things because an expert will definitely have tools to get you through it. But as you said. the support systems is huge. Don't let yourself be alone. I mean, yeah, sure. You can have your nights where you're like, you know what, I'm just gonna sleep this one off today. But I think being around people, trying to maintain like something. Yeah. Also, when you said that having some sort of a routine, that immediately a light bulb went off in my brain because that too, luckily, I am a very disciplined person. Like going through my mom's death in particular, I had a lot of good things going for me before that happened. Like I was already a very disciplined person, I was already very set in a routine where you know I would just have my meals. prepped and everything like that. I would go to the gym and, for lack of better words, luckily, not so luckily, but luckily, I was preparing for my mom's death because, you know, she was in the hospital for a couple months before she actually passed. But during that time, I was making sure that I was taking care of myself properly. I was trying to stay in a routine as much as possible because that is really, between that and just being with friends or somebody, just as much as possible, just to not be alone and just to have company, even if it was just sitting on the couch with somebody. Those are the things that really, really saved me. That routine the the idea of some sort of normalcy before and after the death of somebody is really important. Even if it were to happen, like both my older brothers, their death was sudden and really same thing. It's like you have to have some sort of sense of normalcy, and that's for yourself to be able to survive, to be able to get through the day and know that, like, it's also okay. You're going to be feeling all the feelings, and like, it's okay to feel all of those things. It's actually okay for you to feel some sort of joy every now and then, like just from, you know, oh, I'm going for a walk outside. It's okay. I deserve to, like, have these things. in my life. But then you also feel the guilt of, Oh well, I can't be happy right now. Like my mom's fucking dying. How can I, how can I experience joy when my mom's dying? It's such a confusing thing. But going back to what I was saying, like the real, real help is the support of friends and and just some sort of sense of routine and and doing those small little things for yourself that you really have to push yourself to do, but it really makes a big difference. Like going for a walk, making sure you're eating, just staying in the presence of of a friend, that really helps. Now you're saying, uh Ren, that January 6th is a big day for you in your life. Can you tell me more about where you were, uh, several January 6th ago that may have been you acting out as a result of these things that have happened to you. That's like a running joke. I'm like, John's in the beyond going, 'Great! I have to share my day with these assholes.' Like, so I constantly make a joke about the January 6th thing, but that's where John January 6th, 2014, is when John passed. And unfortunately, January 6th of what, 2020, 2021 was when everyone acted like an idiot. But I just think it's funny that they don't have to share days. That's one of the, like, sixth sense of humor that I'm like, ah, that's fitting of John has to deal with that. shit Well, yeah, they acted like heroes, I think is what you mean. But speaking of heroes, um, I understand that you are also, which I'm just understanding, the crying man, Iron Man. I get it now. You're a five-time Iron Man, much like your hero, John Joseph. And, uh, I ain't no mama Luke. I recently, I know you wouldn't know this, but I recently did become runner guy. Right? Okay. And people ask me, they're like, oh, why, you know, what do you like about running? Why do you, why do you do it? What made you want to start running? And running is actually horrible. It's a terrible thing, and nobody should do it. But when I'm doing it, I can't think about other terrible. things that are happening in my life. I can't think about anything that I might be grieving or stressed out about because I'm certain that I'm moments away from the end of my life as I'm nearing the fourth or fifth K on this trail. So was that something that helped you in coping? I mean, you may have already been involved in these uh athletic events before that, but is that was training something that was able to kind of let you get an escape from this grief that you were feeling? So yes and no. I mean,

I will say this:

due to having severe ADHD, training endurance sports has allowed me to zone in and, like, focus on that. Like I almost when I run I almost meditate if that makes any sense. And I'm allowed to get my thoughts in order. And you know sometimes that does include a bit of the grieving process. You know when my sister passed away I was already in the midst of training for another Ironman. And some of those like long days on the bike you just kind of everything just starts to like line up in an. You have chaos with everything. Cause all I have is me and my thoughts as I'm riding this white wall and trying not to like run over little kids that keep cutting on the path. But I'm very zoned in on bringing everything narrow and kind of making sense of everything. It allows me to prioritize a lot of what's going on in my life. So I would assume that does play a factor into dealing with the grieving. I know that one of the things I do, and I don't think anyone I don't think I've ever told anyone that so you guys are getting an exclusive. When I am about like a quarter mile from, or like when I'm rounding the final turn to go into a finish line at an Ironman, I have John's initials tattooed on my wrist. I always kiss my wrist before I go off. It's just something I started doing randomly on my first Ironman. So now it's a thing that I do. The year that my sister passed away, I'm not Christian; I do not believe in the normal. sky dad, but I pointed up and I don't know why I did it, and I kissed my wrist and then I ran, and I was just something involuntarily I did for Nikki and John, and that's how I finished my race. So, like, I think they're kind of always with me now when I'm training and when I'm racing. So, to answer your question, I don't know if it directly helped me with grieving, but it helps me prioritize my own head. And probably with that, it helps me deal with grieving as well, because I just start to prioritize stuff. And I'm able to, like, get some thoughts out; I argue with myself, wash away some bad thoughts if I have any, or I say, like, 'Hey, I'm going to do this thing I got a one, two, and three that I want to do now. So when I get off the ride, I go home, I shower, I start tackling one, two, and three. So I, you know, and some of that is probably dealing with the grieving too. 'Cause I can't say that I don't think about them. There are certain things that happen where I'm like, oh. And Jess, are there, I don't want to say hobbies, because that's certainly not the word I'm looking for, but were there activities that helped you kind of get refocused and resituated in life? You kind of mentioned that prior to, you were really honed in on the meal prepping and working out and stuff like that. Were those same kind of things? because I know those are things you're involved with now. Involved with sounds like a funny thing to say. With meals, I know you're involved in eating meals now. I'm in a relationship with food. Yes, and it's complicated. Was getting back into those routines something that was helpful for you? Yeah, really, the entire way, like especially with my mom. I was really just very dialed in prior to all of that, and I just knew that keeping up with it, as difficult as it was, like I would simplify whatever I was doing. So I wasn't doing anything complicated, but I was making sure that I was still kind of like having food, making food. I ordered those. factor meals you know to make my life simpler because I knew like I knew myself and I knew that it was going to be difficult to like want to eat. But I knew that I had to eat like going to the gym. I don't want to fucking go to the gym like my mom was dying or my mom died. Like I don't want to go to the gym but I had to for myself. And really the part that I struggled with the most is being able to do things for myself because I knew that I needed to. And really those feelings that that come with it of guilt because you're doing something for yourself especially before my mom died and she was in the. So like I just felt bad about only being able to be at the hospital at the hospital at the hospital for a certain amount of time because I just couldn't I didn't have the capacity or the bandwidth to be there all day. But I was able to just kind of trust myself and know that, like, hey, it's OK. I'm a person and I have to take care of myself too. Also knowing that's what my mom would have wanted. You know, she doesn't want— she wouldn't want her kids hanging out in her hotel, in her hospital room all fucking day like being sad and depressed. She wouldn't have wanted that. So I try to take that into consideration as well. But yeah, really just the routine of just trying to get to the gym trying to make sure I have food so I can eat it and just keeping it as simple as possible through all of that. You know, therapy really helped. And also, going to I had been going to therapy for years and years and years before my mom died. So like, obviously that built up a strong foundation in me being able to overcome my grief. You still have what people really talk about a lot, is you still have all of these feelings. It's just that you don't let that feeling of grief or feeling bad about something dictate your actions. So you're able to make a better choice that better suits your own well-being, if that makes sense. Yeah, that definitely. makes sense. And Ren shared with us that beautiful tribute that he does to his friend when he does the race. As far as the initials on the wrist, it was actually very cool. Is there anything that you do as far as remembering your mom? I know you have different things that remind you of her and things like that. Is there perhaps anything that kind of keeps you with her, keeps her with you? You know, like there's there's really nothing in particular. There's no sort of thing that I do. Her and my older brother's pictures up on the fridge. And you know, I say hi to them sometimes. My oldest brother, I feel guilty because him and I weren't that close. We were when I was younger, but then, like a bunch of stuff happened, which is a story I'm not getting into. We kind of got a little distant. So there's guilt over that too, because I find myself missing my mom and my second older brother, Frankie, a lot. And then my oldest brother, Brian, I feel bad for not missing him as. Anyway, that's I'm getting off topic because of ADHD. But back to your question, I don't really have any traditions or anything, but I do think about them frequently. I don't know, sometimes I like talk to myself, but like be talking to them in some weird way. But my family, my dad and my little brother, they don't, they don't talk about. anything They are like the typical, let's shove it down, men not talk about anything. Like my dad recently sold my parents' house, which was also really difficult for me to deal with. And my dad's new condo that he has, him and my brother are still living together. And it's hard enough going over there because it just makes me sad. But there's no picture of my mom over there at all. I feel like I can't talk to my own immediate family about my mom because they'll get upset or whatever. And it's just, I don't know. So I talk to my friends about that and, you know, sometimes I feel like it's important to choose your family. And for that, I'm very Grateful to have really, really great supportive friends. Now, Ren, I understand that you are currently living with a terminal illness of veganism. Is there anything that your friends do to cope with the grief of your impending loss as a result? Yeah, my whittling away. No, they just bust my stones constantly. No, you know, just a first quick humor about that. My friends are actually pretty good with it. They, every now and then, I'll get a little stone-busting about, " Oh, when you just want to eat this hamburger But now my friends have moved on from the grieving process and now are just in the acceptance process of that, of the 12, 15, 20 steps. whatever it is. Yeah, I mean, I typically go through a lot of phases of grief at an airline. And I explained to a stewardess recently how that worked. And I believe there's five phases. There's, you know, there's denial, there's anger. Anger, step one, anger, denial. I believe the last one is acceptance. There's bargaining. You know, you're like, oh, can I please get on this flight even though, you know, the gate's closed? There's denial because you can't believe, " Oh, don't you work for the same company that got me here late?" Like, how come you flew away without me? And so, yeah, I'm familiar with the phases of grief for sure. And I'm familiar with the. the veganism and with people I mean they all have great jokes. You know they all have a lot of. So Ren, I'm going to back up to where you mentioned January 6th. January 6th. So I'm going to, I'm going to back up to where you mentioned when you were driving to Virginia and Blink 182 came on in the car. So that made me think of wanting to ask how you handle difficult days or triggers that remind you of people that you lost. How do you cope with that? Usually, well, in that case, I just fucking bawled my eyes out driving down 95 to Virginia, but it really depends upon what the trigger is. That date in particular is a little rough. Like January 6th is rough. Not because of the insurrection, but because of John's death. And this year was the worst because it was the 10th. I don't know why 10 is arbitrarily like a bad year, but I think it was one of those, I guess, anniversaries I had to get over. So that was the first rough time that I had on the day of his death since he—well, I should say that the first year I go visit his grave every year on that day, and every year I get lost. I make a joke about him being like, 'I'm right here, you fucking idiot until I find him. Like I just figured he's just sitting on the tombstone, being like, 'Again, you're a—this is where I'm at But the 10th one was rough. That was the roughest one since the first one. So that, that was like a trigger, I'm assuming that 20 will be bad or 25 will be bad when it eventually happens. But like, I get reminded of stuff about Nicole; my stepfather will post stuff. That's sometimes, I'm like, was he drunk when he posted this? Cause it seems like a drunk emotion. But that'll trigger some certain things. I like you, you said with your brother I had hangups with my sister. There's a lot of woulda, coulda, shouldas. I could have been closer with her. There's a lot of reasons that are both our fault and not our fault why we weren't closer than I am with my other two sisters. It doesn't mean I loved her any less or anything like that, but sometimes I'll get triggered into one of those like woulda, coulda, shouldas type situations. And then I got to deal with that. I have to accept that there's nothing I can do now. It's too late for that. And I got to learn. I try to use that as a learning tool for what I go forward. So that's how I deal with like those particular triggers. The things with John are really random. Like I can't explain when or why or what it is that happens. Like I said, I just randomly was like, Oh let me listen to this new blank way to record, not thinking anything of it. I thought I was going to hear a bunch of dick and fart. jokes like they were known for and then all of a sudden there's this really sad song about friendship and missing their friends. And I'm like, motherfuckers. So it comes when it comes, and every situation seems to be I've just accepted when the stuff with John happens. If tears come, they come, and it is what it is. And if someone asks me what's wrong, I'm like, Oh, just thought about some fucking idiot that you know had to go and pass away 10 years ago. And he's making me sad again, probably laughing at me because I'm crying about him. But you know, That's a good point. I mean, it really can happen at any time, and you just have to just be like that's. okay and do whatever you need to do. Would you say after that that your perspective on life and relationships has changed at all? And if so, how do you think that they've adapted? I've always been the type of person that leans into friends. I value my friends, the relationship I have with friends probably as much, or sometimes more so, than my own family. You know, it's the family you choose; like you don't get to choose your actual family. I think there's something to be said about choosing these people to be in your life. And I think when John passed particularly, I am more, I'm always like, 'Hey, let's hang out and people are like, 'Oh, you know they think there needs to be this big hangout. I'm like, dude, I'd come to your house with French fries. Like, let's just fucking shoot the shit and watch some dumb on TV. And that's the type of person I am. And when John died, I realized that there's like only a finite amount of time we have to do any of that shit. So, like, I try to do it a lot more because I know if you gave me, if you told me years before that, Hey, this is the day that this is going to end, I would have fucking ran so much more. And with that relationship, same thing with my sister. I mean, like again, it's what it could have showed us and all that stuff. But I'm now, you know, if there's one good thing that came from Nikki passing was I'm close with my other sisters. Now we're not the type of family that's like up each other's ass. Like I have a ton of friends that are like the only people they hang out with. They're their siblings and their siblings' kids and all that shit. That's like the only friends that they really have now as adults. And my sisters and I would never like that. And now I make the effort to see them more. They make the effort to call me more, send me pictures of my nieces and nephews and shit like that. So like I said, there's one good thing that came from either of their deaths is now I'm like even more in tuned with My relationships with other people and how I'm going to try to take advantage of seeing them as much as I can. I think that's, I think that's really important. I think that's really great. And I love that, you know, that kind of, in an unfortunate way, brought, unfortunately fortunate, brought your family together. And that's, that's really great. So going forward, what advice would you give to others who might be going through a similar experience of loss, like in the nitty gritty of it right now? My my main thing would be, allow yourself to feel your feelings. Don't bottle them up. Don't avoid them. Don't push it off until I'll deal with. it later I'll deal with it after the funeral I'll deal with it after this. Like no, like if you're fucking bummed out, let the waterworks go. Like sometimes that it's just the stress reliever you need. I think the other things that we covered about trying to stay in a routine, keeping your mind busy so that you don't spiral, because if I think everyone would recognize that they're a type of person, they'll go off the deep end real fast. And I think sometimes, like even if it's like going to like work sucks, but like I think even sometimes going to work is important because it's just something you have to go and you have to focus on that. And it allows you to stay away from it for just a little bit for those eight hours. Now you can get out of work and deal with it. I also think leaning into your support. And if you think that you are handling it in a bad way, if you start drinking, if you start to do drugs, if you're starting to self-harm, if you're not eating, if you're just going home and sleeping, and not socializing with anybody, obviously first and foremost, like you need to get therapy. Like, as you said about the younger generations, I think the younger generations are starting to accept therapy a lot sooner. I know that when I was in therapy as a kid, like it was unheard of. Well, my parents got divorced. I was, I saw a therapist, and like I tell people that, and they were like, you were in therapy? When? And I was like the only person I know of that ever saw a therapist as a child or like even until like after they were like in their 20s. Some people are like, I didn't see a psychologist until I was like 35. So I think what I'm starting to hear, like especially with working with younger people, that like, oh yeah, I went saw my therapist the other day, and I think that's good. But like I said, if you think you're smiling, you—those are all really good things. And when you were talking about therapy, it made me think about wanting. to if I could give a piece of advice to anybody, it would be everybody could use therapy. It doesn't matter if your life is perfect. I think that getting that set in, it's just like physical therapy. I don't know if anybody that will be listening has ever done physical therapy or has gotten surgery that required physical therapy.

I'm gonna use the metaphor of me now; follow me here:

me getting my ACL surgery for my knee, okay? Pre-surgery, they had me doing PT even before I got the surgery done because that builds up the muscles so that the PT after is not as extensive, it's not as hard, your recovery is faster. Going back to this topic, going to therapy for your brain. If you just go and do it, you benefit from it. You put some really cool coping mechanisms, you get some more things in your toolbox, and then it's life. Some shit's gonna happen, and then boom, you're already fucking prepared because you've been going to therapy, and you're better equipped to handle whatever life throws at you. So whatever that looks like, you're just putting yourself in a better position to be able to handle that. So, I really can't encourage going to therapy enough, even if your life looks perfect. And I understand that healthcare system is garbage, but if you are in a position where you can get mental health for free or for very little money; you should absolutely take advantage of that, because it will work in your favor for sure, for better preparing yourself for things like this in the future that you have no control over. I agree. I don't really agree, but I wanted to go. Do you not agree? Do you not agree? Oh, I mean, I don't like disagree. I just, I mean like I don't go to, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Well, that's fine. Yeah, I don't have insurance. Well, that's—or assurance. You know what, though?

I will say this:

as someone who has gone through therapy, it's been years, and I should change that. But like, as someone who has gone through. therapy I think Jess can attest to this too. Sometimes just talking to your and just letting your thoughts out and having someone to bounce an idea off of or a thought or an emotion off of is just what you need. It is that is a form of I think being around your friends and having the serious conversations; like not all conversations have to be about joking or, in Jess's case, Meshuggah. I think having like those tough conversations is important. And I think that will, you know, as you said, like most people, most people I know are like I can't afford a psychologist 100 an hour or whatever the fuck they charge. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. So I think the next best thing you have is talking to people you know. Obviously, don't take I don't know if I've talked to like some of your maniac friends. Like I know who my friends are that I'm like, I'm not taking their advice. Like I love hanging out with them because they're fun, but I'm not letting them tell me how to live my life. But I think something like this where you guys, where we're talking and having like a constructive conversation about something that's heavy, I think that is just as—maybe not just as— but I think it is beneficial. Obviously, if the therapist knows how to navigate these a little bit more and point you in. different directions, and as Jess said, coping mechanisms. But I still think some of the best conversations I've had, and when I've left feeling the best, is talking to a friend of mine, like someone that I can trust to have, hey, be like, here, I'm gonna spill my... what do you got for me? And sometimes just spilling the guts and them going okay is enough. Because now I just got it out. I got it out in a safe spot. Sounds like when I tell a girl I love them. Okay, thank you. That's nice. Oh, that's sweet. Oh, I appreciate it, pal. Jess, do we have some fun questions? Yeah, so after navigating through all of the heavy stuff, now we'll get into some fun questions. We're gonna talk about when my dog died or is that where we're going? Yeah, so Ren now tell us about your dog that passed away. Ren, tell us about someone you grieved that you killed. You don't have to name them, but I know statutes of limitations. I thought this was only an hour podcast, but no, go ahead. So now let's get into some fun questions, okay? So one question we always ask on this podcast is who is one person that you are grateful for and why? My grandmother. She's the greatest human being that's ever lived. I have like a rocky relationship with both of my parents from when I was a baby. I'm not necessarily close with either of them. the one constant parental figure in my life was my grandmother. my whole life, as of one point, I actually lived in her house for a couple of years. Actually, I've lived in her house a couple of times throughout my life. A couple of times when I was a kid, and then when I was an If you met her, you would understand a lot of me. And yeah, I just think she's like the greatest human being ever. And that's who I would be thankful for and why I love that. And I could spend an hour talking about my grandmother like I could John Barlow. So like, I'll just nix it. We'll save that for another episode, okay? Yeah. And when you say you have a rocky relationship, you mean you guys just run up and down those stairs a lot 100 that's it I'm gonna go meet them in 20 minutes there We're gonna do the dance to the song and everything I might knock one of them out like Apollo but I'm just kidding. Hell yeah I don't advocate for violence. Is there anything that you are currently listening to on repeat at the moment? What am I listening to on repeat at the moment? Probably the 200 Stab Wounds record. Haven't heard it. And there's a lot of weird EDM that won't make sense to either of you, so I just will spare you. Okay, that's another questionable decision I make in my life is how much dance music I listen to. I love. That can't be a worse decision than all the Blink-182 you've referred to on this podcast. Listen, my friend, I've been raving since I was 16. I love that straight-edge raver. Yeah, vegan. Yeah, so sorry for your loss. Nothing makes sense for me. I like Raven. I mean, she went through that thing where she shaved her head off later on and did the talk show, but you know she can see into the future. I think that's cool. Yeah, yeah, that's so Raven. That show was good. Her friend Chelsea was cool. Yeah, yeah, the Cheetah Girls. Is that right? That was their band. Yeah, they came into Ben Jerry's once when I worked there with 3LW, Three Little Women. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, ballers. They want to ball. Yeah. Wait, is this for real? That's a thing. Oh, blink-182 guy doesn't know about the Cheetah Girls. Okay. All right. No, yeah. There was a Disney Channel original show called That's So Raven, starring Raven Simone of The Cosby Show fame. And she was also in a Disney Channel original movie called The Cheetah Girls, with members of a pop girl group at the time called 3LW, which stood for Three Little Women, and they did a concert tours and came into Ben & Jerry's once, probably more than once. I mean, and I don't even know what that means. I don't either. Well, Ren, what band? If you could name one band you could see every. day for a year straight. What band would that be?

It's the answer for like everything with favorite bands:

White Zombie. I would see White Zombie every day. Okay, awesome. Sick. Okay, what training do you love the most, and what part of it makes you drag your feet the most? Oh, you're talking specifically Ironman stuff? Yeah, swimming is my favorite. And the part that drags me the most is— I mean, that makes sense. Because running is the— I know. Honestly, the reason that the running is the drag for me is because that's the one I've been doing the longest. Okay, I had swum when I was a kid from like age eight to eighteen, and then I took all those years off before. I started doing Ironman before I started like swimming again. So it's like still, I mean, even though I've been doing triathlons since 2015, swimming still feels quote unquote new to me. And biking is just fucking fun because you go, I do like 20 some miles an hour while I'm on this bike. So like it's just fun, and I cover so much ground. And the idea of like going to all these new places while I'm riding my bike keeps my brain happy. Running, I usually just run in the same spot. So like I kind of like, oh, it's that tree again, it's that statue again. Cool! Like I drag ass a little bit on the running. I do it and I still like it, but it's the one that I have. to fight with myself to get out of bed to go do sometimes. Yeah, that's why I don't do it at all. Well, what is the most rented video game and/ or movie that you have rented from Blockbuster? Video game would be Resident Evil, and the movie would probably be The Monster Squad. Okay. In your opinion, which berry is best? Which berry? Which, which berry is best? Isn't an apple a berry? Oh God, I knew I knew you were gonna be— I was like, I looked at this question and I was like, Oh, that's a good question because I really like berries. I thought you were saying very like the show with Bill Hader. I didn't know what you were talking about. What berry like as like. a strawberry blueberry antelope poison Very white. Very white. Yeah, Very white is the correct. All right. Next question. White zombie Barry White. Yeah, January 6. I'm seeing a pattern. Don't worry about it. Would you rather be able to communicate with animals or have to love?

I can't even say this word:

telepathy, telepathy, telepathy. There we go. They'll go to speech therapy. Yeah, I do. I do need to. My brain doesn't work when I try to talk. I probably would talk to animals. I don't really need to know what people are thinking. I knew you were gonna say that answer. What would be the first thing you would do using that superpower? Like, what animal? Would you go up to? What would you ask it or tell do or my dogs? I wouldn't talk to my dogs. I want to know what they're thinking. Yeah. Am I a shitty owner? Like what? Like do I need to Do I need to change the food that they get? Do they hate the food that I give them? Like what do we got? The brown squares you give them every single day? Brown circles? What is one product you swear by and would endorse? I'm gonna keep an Ironman. I don't like, and Ryan probably uses since he's a marathoner now. Tailwind is a high carb drink. It's a with electrolytes. It's a powder mix instead of using shitty Gatorade. That's a product that I use every day that I back. is like caffeinated. Ryan loves his energy drinks. It can, it can be caffeinated. Well, yeah. So let me clarify that I'm not a marathon runner; I'm trying to run 5k. And I do drink elements, element, elements, electrolyte drink. And I do swear by in the sense that every time I drink in the morning, I say swear words because it's disgusting. Just tastes like the sea. It's like the, if you get tailwind, you get the lemonade; it tastes like lemonade. Two scoops or a scoop, it's 100 calories per scoop. It's so, it's got the carbs to give you the energy, and it has the electrolytes. So okay, that is a brand I've used for almost every Ironman I've done. And without it, I feel like I would fail miserably. I would bump the shit. So maybe, maybe I'll put Ryan on something. That's the one. I'm sure there's some other products too that I could, you know, like dub soap or some shit, but like I'll definitely try it. I mean, I can't get any worse. There you go. The product that came to mind for me would be Rain-X, like the windshield wiper fluid that you put into your car. I will never buy the cheapie window washer fluid; I will spend the extra dollar for the orange Rain-X. Never once put fluid into my car. You need to know that you bugs down there. You pay the, you pay the person at the speedy oil change. to do it What are you doing it for? They put they put bullshit in your window. They put top of the line. They assure me every time when they're ringing me up for three hundred dollars for my oil change that I'm getting all the good stuff. It is well worth it to put Lucas oil in your car. Do it once and then tell me I'm wrong. OK, you'll be like oh my gosh, Jess, I can see in the rain. It's amazing. And then I will say the rain too because I use my wipers. Yeah, yeah. OK dude, well use Rain-X because it will make the rain bead up. You don't even have to use your wipers. It doesn't smear all over your car. Trust me, do it once. God, make sure I'm not on the road with you. I don't even use my wipers. The Rain-X takes care of it. Yeah, exactly. It's his. It works really well. I don't believe in stereotypes about female drivers, but Jess—whoa! Please use your windshield wipers. Excuse the hell out of me. All right,

last question:

If one food could have zero calories and no negative repercussions for the rest of your life, what would it be? One food, zero calories, no repercussions. Yes! Like, I would go back to pineapple again because I eat that more than anything. But I'm going to say ice cream. I want all the calories and everything. That's why I'm eating it. And I feel like, I mean, I think they made zero-calorie vegan. ice cream and people pretended it was good a couple of years ago. And I wish I could remember the name of it right now. You know what I'm talking about? I certainly don't. They made non-vegan flavors as well, but they made, there was a zero-calorie ice cream and people would make believe. Was it Arctic Arctic Circle? Cause that tasted, even the regular kind tasted not good. No, people, 500 calories per spoonful. Like I, Halo Top, people pretended Halo Top was edible. I got a whole bunch of it in my... Well, I rest my case. It was on sale. Can't talk, can't taste. Thank you for joining us about this episode of grief. We're grieving Jess's. ability to drive properly and know what ice cream is. Yeah, whoa, whoa. Just because I have Halo Top in my freezer, it doesn't mean that I don't know what good ice cream is. I have Halo Top in my I better be for a bludgeon in case someone breaks in. It is. It is. Well, the dairy kind tastes a little bit better than the non-dairy kind, so I will say that I've had both. I have no interest in non-dairy, although it has come a long way. Still waiting for the cheese to taste good, though. So let me know when that happens. You'll be grieving all of our losses before cheese tastes good vegan. Yeah, dude. Oh man. Sorry. Anyway, thank you, Ren, for joining us today. We do. appreciate your openness and vulnerability on such a heavy topic. No, it's nothing for me. Like I said, I think it's important to talk about it. And if my experience helps anyone, if it clicks for anyone, then good. If it only clicks for one person, then I think that's a positive. So I'm happy to talk about it. It's the two deaths in particular that I've come to terms with that I'm okay with, that I even sometimes crack jokes about, even though that's morbid. So talking about it was not that big of a deal. And like I will talk about John and Nicole any way I can, as often as I can. So this also was good for me to just share a little bit about them. They were two amazing human beings for their different reasons that unfortunately are no longer with us. So, you know, I got to keep their memory alive in some way, shape, or form. And if their loss helps anyone else out, then that's a great thing. I think that's great too. It's really important. Thank you. So hey, you both converted to Christianity on this. Alright folks, that just about wraps up another episode of The Underwire. A huge thank you goes out to Ren for being comfortable with getting uncomfortable with us today by sharing their experiences with dealing with heavy grief that comes alongside with losing a loved one. really hope talking about all of this today provided some sort of comfort and validated anyone who may be currently going through a similar situation, or maybe has helped someone understand how they can be a better support to someone who may be going through it. Regardless, the goal was to help you feel less alone in your experience, and I can't stress enough that grief is a deeply personal process. There's no one right way to go through it, so don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you found this episode helpful, we'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment to leave us a 5-star rating because that would help us reach more. listeners who might relate to this. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at theunderwirepod. We'd love to hear your thoughts, your stories, any questions you might have about grief or loss. We're here to support you, and we would love to continue the conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen today, and we look forward to catching you on the next episode. See ya.

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Jess Goldey

Host
Contributor

Ryan Rainbro

Co-host