The Underwire Podcast

Rolling with Life: What Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Can Teach Us About Building Resilience and Confidence (With Guest: Kelsey Hunter)

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On this episode of The Underwire, we’re rolling into the world of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with my friend Kelsey Hunter!

Kelsey is a Board Certified Behavior Analyst and a proud blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. She’s passionate about mental health, empowering women in male-dominated spaces, and sharing the lessons she’s learned on and off the mat.

In this episode, we explore:

  • Kelsey’s journey into BJJ—what inspired her to try it and what made her stick with it, even when the going got tough.
  • The powerful connection between physical activity and mental health, and how jiu-jitsu has helped Kelsey build resilience and emotional strength.
  • How lessons from the mat influence her work as a therapist and empower her to communicate effectively in all areas of life.
  • The transformative impact of community, failure, and self-discovery in BJJ.
  • The three-month rule, a game-changing mindset Kelsey uses to push through the hard parts of starting something new.

Whether you’re curious about jiu-jitsu, considering a new hobby, or just looking for inspiration to tackle life’s challenges, this episode has something for you!

MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

Kelsey’s story is a reminder that even in life’s hardest seasons, we’re all capable of growth, connection, and learning to fight—on and off the mat. Tune in to hear how Kelsey has transformed her mindset through BJJ and what lessons you can take


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Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Underwire, supporting you where life needs a lift. I'm your host, Jess, and today we're diving into the journey of Brazilian jiu jitsu through the eyes of my friend Kelsey Hunter, who's not just a blue belt who's been training jiu jitsu for the past two years, but also a board-certified behavior analyst who loves talking about all things mental health and empowering women to be confident in male-dominated spaces. In this episode, Kelsey shares how jiu jitsu has not only transformed her physically, but has also deeply impacted her mental and emotional well-being. We'll talk about the Challenges she faced when she first started, the unexpected lessons she's learned, and how jiu jitsu has become such a powerful tool for personal growth. Plus,

Kelsey introduces us to the three month rule:

a unique perspective on sticking with new hobbies, relationships, or challenges, and how it's helped her to overcome the hardest parts of starting something new. Here's the thing,

though:

This episode isn't just about jiu jitsu. OK, so even if you've never stepped on a mat or don't even know what BJJ even stands for,

this conversation is about stuff everyone can relate to:

building resilience, finding confidence, and ways to feel empowered and creating balance in It's about how trying something new, whether it's a hobby, a new challenge, finding new people can totally shift your perspective and help you grow. So get ready to roll with us. Yes, that is a pun intended. And let's jump into the episode. Well, thank you so much for doing this today. I'm so excited to get into our conversation. Hopefully, we don't get too off topic because we do have so much to talk about. We do. Right? I'll try not to segue too much. OK, all right, cool, thank you. Yeah, yeah, so technically my title is a Board Certified Behavior Analyst, which is a fun fancy acronym, BCBA. Basically, that means that I specialize in using the principles of behavior to enact behavior change. Whereas a therapist, a more traditional therapist, say you're a counselor or an LCSW or something like that, they're going to be trained in a lot of different treatment modalities. So they're going to be using CBT and acceptance and commitment therapy. And so that's a lot of talk therapy versus the work that I'm doing, which is more focused on behavior change, if that makes sense. That makes a lot of And what type of people do you specialize with helping with that? Yeah, so I specialize in working with people with autism, pediatric populations, so like zero to 21 with severe behavior disorders. So a lot of my focus is on behaviors that are unsafe and how can I help families and kids be safer in their home, school, and community, things like that. That's so awesome! It's a very intellectually stimulating job, which is why I like it so much. Yeah, that's really cool. Are you able to share a really positive experience that you've had recently with helping somebody? Yeah, oh yeah! Man, you know, I have to say I think the positives that I've been seeing the most is just in the work that some of my families are doing. I have quite a few families that actually have multiple children that are neurodivergent. that are all having challenges in the. And so, to be able to watch parents decide to basically change their routine, their approach for the benefit of multiple children and be able to actually make change happen is really impressive to me, because it's already hard enough to change one human's, let alone three or four depending on the. So that's been a positive. I've had a couple families with multiple children that need support. So that's been something that I've been seeing a lot lately, which is nice. That's really awesome. And I'm sure that that gives you such a sense of fulfillment. You feel like you're actually doing something. at work which is important. It's so important. Yes, I think that that's where I feel for people that don't have those types of jobs where they get a lot of fulfillment because I don't really know the type of person I would be if I didn't have a job that was fulfilling. Yeah, I'm there now. Yeah, my corporate job is sucking the soul out of me, but that is a topic for another day. That is a topic for another. Man, we could talk about that for a week. Kelsey, you and I could talk for so long about so many things, but today we're talking about jujitsu. Yeah, so I'll say I'm a jujitsu practitioner. Oh, I like that. That sounds so professional, does yeah, I'm not a professional and I'll never be a but I think it's a good way to talk about it. Yeah, I love that. So I wanna know what inspired you to try jujitsu because I remember you were at my house. I don't know why I remember this moment so vividly in my but I remember the exact moment when you were telling me I think you met somebody who was telling you about jujitsu and you were kind of indifferent about it and going back and forth. And you mentioned something about you've had concussions and injuries, and you were trying to take that into consideration. So I love that. That was about two years ago and you started it; you fell in love with it. and you're sticking with it and you're doing it now and it's such a part of your life. So I'm so excited to hear about all of that. So what was the what inspired you to try it? Great question! I think I've always wanted to do a martial art. I don't know where that comes from. I think I'm a feisty personality, so I think that that lends somewhat to my personality. And I've always wanted to do something like cool and tough. And also, I'm a very small we're both very small humans, right? And when I was learning more about jujitsu, I was like, wow, jujitsu is really good for it's good for overpowering bigger opponents, if you will. Like, if you know what you're doing. So I was like, that's perfect! I'm really tiny woman. I don't wanna do striking because of my concussion history. So what's another way that I could learn a martial art? And I was getting tattooed, and my tattoo artist, who did my sleeve, is a blue belt. And he is the one that like pushed me over the edge because I remember speaking with you, being like, I'm not sure, and felt it out. That's incredible! So when you first started, what were some initial challenges or surprises that you encountered and had to overcome as a? Because I'm sure there is a lot. There's a huge learning curve with jujitsu. Yeah, they say it's like learning. another language, right? I can attest to that, for sure. The very little bit I have dabbled in jujitsu, it is a complete brain warp. It is because you're moving your body, and you're thinking in ways that you don't typically think, right? The thing that I did expect, but also didn't make it easier, knowing that it was gonna happen, was like just the anxiety of showing up. I think was something that I dealt with for probably the first six to eight months of doing it, because showing up not knowing and knowing that you're going to be bad is really anxiety provoking. It absolutely is. And it could be the determining factor of somebody not wanting. to come back because there really is so much about jujitsu that is exactly like what you said, like learning a new language. When I was training Muay Thai and trying to also then transition into learning jujitsu as well, somebody explained it so perfectly. One of my coaches said you can imagine what it's like to punch and kick somebody, but when you're down on the ground rolling around, it's almost like a puzzle, and it's hard for your brain to grasp what your body's supposed to be doing. Even for looking in from the outside and trying to figure out what two people are doing, it's hard to see which body part is which and whose leg is. whose It's like a twister and it's such a mind fuck. And I'm so proud of you for getting through that and acknowledging the discomfort and working through that and sticking with it. And I just think that that is so cool and I'm so proud of you. Thank you. Yeah, I think that that's important for people to think. It's the same with doing anything that's hard, but I think specifically with jujitsu because you don't know and you're not going to know. I remember my first couple months we would always do this one specific warmup before we even started instruction and just not being able to do the warmup in the way that I knew it was supposed. to go was like that felt like such a big battle for me. And it was so funny because we were doing that warmup the other day, and I was just doing it. And I was like, I can't believe this was such a big monster in my mind. That coming to realization of those moments is the best, when you realize, wow, I really sucked at this and now I'm extremely proficient in it. And to be able to just see the growth in those small little moments is such a monumental thing in life in general, just to be able to acknowledge that. And I think that that's what sucks people into jujitsu because there's very much a lot of, I think, parallels that you could take from jujitsu and apply to life, right? So, you know, it's like joining a That's the joke; it's like joining a But I think the parallel that you're describing is the fact that doing something really challenging and uncomfortable, and being disciplined and persisting through that, you learn so much. And that applies not just to a martial art, but to a new job, to a new relationship, to learning a new skill. And that's where I think it's a great practice for people to do that and then be able to maybe take that and do other things outside of jujitsu that are similarly challenging. Yeah, I think that that is a really great point. And I wanna come back and I wanna revisit that. But first, I wanna ask what your first day was like? Can you describe that? And then, you know, you did also mention those feelings of anxiety. What made you push through and continue to keep showing up? Those are key moments that you're right, determine whether or not somebody comes back. And I had a really unique situation. So, I trained at the vault in Morton, PA. And at the time when I joined, there was a very strong women's community at this particular gym. And when I did my first session, quote unquote, session, it was with two women. One was a blue belt and one was a, I think, a purple belt. And they gave me a free 30 minute basic intro. So, there was nobody else there. It was just them. And they talked me through, this is what you expect, this is what you wear, this is what this means. And just being able to come in comfortably with two women, no expectations, just working on basics like I signed up on the spot. I literally was like, okay, 12 months, take my money. That's amazing! That's incredible! So that was a very positive first experience. And then when I showed up to my first class, which I would say is the most anxiety-provoking, I immediately was drawn to women. It's a male-dominated space. So when you walk into a space and you see other women, we tend to. gravitate towards each other. So, the women in the gym really pulled me in. And that's how I met my best friend, Nikita, who she was one of the first people that I ever rolled with. Mind you, she's like six foot and outweighs me by a lot. But I came in very anxious, not feeling like I knew what to do. And then I gravitated towards women, and they really just broke it down for me and made me feel successful, basically. I love that so much. And you make such great points too about how it's important to have other women be representing these male-dominated sports or activities. I feel like we see that a lot, especially in the punk rock, hardcore metal. scene It used to be so male-dominated, and now it's so cool to see all of these women and all sorts of people. JustI mean, you were like the first girl I saw in a hardcore band. So I think that that's like, it's very important to have women spaces for women in different areas. And I would say, you know, people that are wanting to join a gym, especially if you are a woman or you know identify as a woman, make sure that you are finding a place where women are present. Because if you walk in, I would argue, if you walk into a gym and there's no women there, that would be a question of like, okay, why aren't women training here? Right? That would be a huge red flag. And a turn off for me. And it's so cool to hear about such a positive experience that you had, because it is not like that everywhere at every gym. And I had a very positive experience where I went also, and I hear the complete opposite from so many people, especially other women. It's a very ego-driven sport. That's the other thing that's challenging about it. So I've talked with other women that have been in other gyms, and instead of being like collaborative community, it's been more competition. So that's not an unfamiliar idea. But I think the vault where I train does such a good job of like cultivating a safe environment for women. It's our women's like program has grown, you know, substantially. We have so many women that train there now, and I think that that's also a huge reason why I kept showing up. That is incredible. I love hearing everything about that. So let's get back to overcoming those challenges of when you first started. So can you give us some examples of some specific struggles, like frustration or failure, some of which you've already even mentioned? But how did you work through them? Yeah, that is um, failure is a prominent theme that is going to be prominent throughout our conversation. I think feelings of failure, feelings of inadequacy. It's very humbling. And so, if you're a person that struggles with ego— and I don't feel that I am really one of those people— but it kind of brings out different areas in which you're like, " Oh damn, I didn't realize that I cared that much But that's cool because you're realizing more about yourself and who you are as a person. Yeah, acknowledging that by being put in uncomfortable situations, which is absolutely so important. And so, I remember lots of feelings of just anticipatory anxiety of getting there. And then, you know, feelings of kind of like failure or inadequacy as I'm moving along; also just feeling like silly and stupid. Right! So, like, you're moving your body in a way you've never moved it before, which means you're going to misstep, you're going to fall, you're not going to understand what somebody's telling you to do. And that's challenging, because it's almost like you're constantly getting, like, feedback. And you're like, why am I going to keep doing this if all I'm getting is just keep up at that, do this better, you know? And nobody at my gym was saying that. But that's like the internal narrative. Absolutely! Like, oh my god, I'm so bad at this. Why does anybody want to roll with me? What am I going to do? And then you just come back and you do it again. Yeah. yeah So I remember just I think the community was a big part in me pushing through the anxiety. I think talking to people about the anxiety was also really helpful because, and it was almost I almost didn't have to solicit the advice. There'd be so many people that would just sit on the side of the mat and be like just keep showing up. It's okay that you don't know. And that was like oh okay. So I'm not supposed to be good at this Right? Yeah and I'm sure that really helped embrace that discomfort and kind of lean into it and just be like this sucks but I love it. And I'm going to keep showing up because I know it's going to make me better. Yeah it's like a It's like you know you start a puzzle and you want to find the last piece, right? Like that clicks in your brain. And that, that is what clicks in my brain is like I just want to keep finding the puzzle pieces because it is really hard. And I want to, I want to be good at it. I want to climb the mountain. I want to get to the top. Yeah, that's a really great analogy. So with that being said, what advice would you give to anyone feeling intimidated by starting jujitsu or anything that seems really out of their comfort zone? And I would ask, and this is going to be my therapist hat that's going to go on, which is I would ask you to ask yourself is it stress versus distress? Because experiencing stress means you're experiencing a challenge, which stress produces good things, right? It makes me get my notes done, and it means I show up to work on time. But then there's distress, which is I can't do this, I feel hopeless. So I would encourage people to say, like, am I experiencing distress? Because if I am, then maybe this isn't something that I should do. Or maybe I should approach it in a different way versus if I feel a little bit stressed, maybe I push through that. Maybe I talk to somebody. And I think finding the right environment for you as a human is what makes or breaks somebody. starting So if you're feeling intimidated and you've walked into a gym and you feel intimidated, maybe that's not the right gym. Or maybe it is, and maybe you want to push through it. But I think I would ask yourself, is this just a little bit uncomfy? Or is this uncomfy in a way that's telling me that it's not the right fit? Yeah, that's such a great thing to bring up and to think about. And on a related note, you were talking about bringing out your therapist. So what are some insights from jujitsu that you bring to work, if any, as a therapist? Well, in a very literal sense, because I'm working with people that engage in unsafe behaviors, there are a lot of aggressive episodes and things like that. It's given me some very practical, literal advice of how do I position my body? How do I safely maneuver this human so that way I can keep them safe and myself safe? So that's really nice to have that knowledge. But I think that what it's brought to work for me is just a peace of mind, right? Like the work that I do is really heavy. And so it's great because I'm able to step out of work and not think about work. Yeah, great question. It's hard. It's hard to find a balance with anything. And I found that because of the intensity, and I think this is good for somebody to know if they want to start. Right, because of the intensity of the workout that you're getting, it's not just cardio on a stair climber. Right? Your body's going to hurt; your joints are going to hurt. So I've found I only train two to three times a week with days in between. So that's really helpful. I also think because I've been doing this job for a long time, I'm quite boundaried with my work. So when it's like, we're done work time, we're done. And I'm going to go work out because I need the endorphins to feel better. Right? So you're like compartmentalizing your different things, like you have dinner and then dessert. And even though you're full from dinner, you. still have more room for dessert because they go in different compartments. That's just science, obviously. That is science. Yeah, I think I compartmentalize it. And I think there are days when I don't do jujitsu because my work is really heavy, but it's almost like an escape. I think that it's almost like a coping strategy for me at this point. I think a lot of people feel that way just about exercise in general. I completely agree with that. Yeah, because you're an avid, you know, you're an avid gym-goer. And so it's nice to be able to go and not talk about work. It's also nice to be able to show up on the mats and say to somebody, like, I had a really shitty day at work today. And like I'm glad that I came. Yeah, so, but it is fatiguing. And I think I would encourage people to just like give yourself mental space. And there are going to be times where you're not training. Like I haven't trained in a week because I got a really severe migraine after training last week. And I was like, I'm just my body. Not, not today. Yeah, that's important to be able to also listen to your body. Because I feel like with anything, it's easy to become obsessed with a hobby, any sort of physical activity. And then people go from one extreme to the next wondering why they still feel like shit. And you bring up. another really good point about finding that balance and figuring out how you can listen to your body to effectively incorporate all of the things into your life and not feel burnt out on anything because that's a real thing. Just feeling burnt out about something that you love just because you love it doesn't mean... Yeah, I think people need to take space. And that's something that's been hard thing because I want to be really good and I want to progress. And when you take time off, it feels like you're not doing that. But I found that when I do take time off because I'm listening to my body, I actually come back and I feel a little. bit more capable and successful when I do come back. Yeah. So sometimes it is about finding that middle ground of like how do I train regularly? But how do I also make sure that I'm not pushing myself too hard? Yeah. And that is a very personal thing for everybody. Not you or I can tell anyone else, well, you should train this much or this little. It really is something that you need to figure out yourself. Yeah, it's like what can your body, you know, handle? Because I train with high schoolers, right? There's kids from high school that come; they're 17, they have endless energy, they don't need to sleep, their body doesn't hurt. Whereas you know. I'm 32, and I have hard rolls with a 200-pound man. I'm like limping for two days, right? So you just have to, I think, be prepared. I don't want to worry people like, oh, you're going to get injured, but it's taxing. And so you have to allocate time and recovery to do it well. I would say, yeah, that's definitely good advice. So along with giving more advice, why would you recommend jujitsu to someone or any physical activity, for that matter, for somebody's not just physical health? Because we know the obvious benefits of the physical benefits of physical activity. But let's talk about benefits for somebody's mental health. Why would you suggest? that There's so many there's so many. And the reason why I think jujitsu is great is because it comes with community. And I think that when we talk about depression and anxiety and those symptoms and what are things that greatly impact them, it's like, are you able to get out of your house? Are you having meaningful connections with people? Are you getting endorphins? You know, and I feel like it's kind of all wrapped up into like one little

pretty package:

you go to jujitsu, you get to talk with people, you get to learn something new, and you get to get some endorphins. So you get all of it in one place. I would argue, yeah, those are all really. Good points, and I love that you brought up community because that was the next thing I wanted to talk about. So, that's a great transition into asking how jujitsu has helped you build friendships and find that sense of community that's so important in your well-being overall. It has fundamentally changed my life, and I think you knew I was gonna say that. I love that so much! Seriously, I'm this you can't see me if you're listening to this right now, but I'm just grinning. I'm like, I'm just five because that makes me so happy. I love hearing about these things from people when they, you know, I've known you for so long, and I was there from when. You first started this, and I just love that so much for you that you found such a great community and one of your best friends through this. And all of that is just so important. You know,

I want to say it again:

I'm just so proud of you, and I'm so happy for you. Thanks! Well,

I think that that's what's so cool:

is you have the perspective of kind of almost like seeing the human I was before I started, and now seeing how I am after starting. And like, it's changed my life in so many ways because of that community, because I've met so many people. And I think what's also really cool about it is that the Philly community of female grapplers is massive. We're very spoiled here. There are a ton of incredible women that are doing really amazing things for just the sport in general, like Maya with Alchemize Fightwear. She is a nationally internationally recognized brand and person who literally is in Philly, and I got invited to go to one of herI'm connecting with people, with women online. And now I know like all these women from different gyms in different areas. And so it's really enriched my life socially because I just, we have that thing in common. That makes a lot of sense, and I fucking love that for you. So tell me more about how being a part of a supportive jujitsu community. has deepened your commitment to the practice and positively impacted your mental and emotional well-being. As a result, I think that it has made me realize the importance of pushing myself to do things that are uncomfortable and difficult. Like, it is a natural human response that when your fight or flight is kicking in, you let that run its course. And I think jujitsu, you're training your body to respond in different ways. And there's something really empowering about that; that you are basically, it's like mind over matter. I was talking actually with Maya from Alchemize about, I said, or I said, like, why does this feels like the hardest thing I've ever done. I've done so many hard things, and this feels like the hardest thing. And she had this like just profound response of, well, it's you versus you. And I was like, damn, is deep. But it's so real. Yeah, that just goes for every aspect of life. Why is everything against yourself the hardest? Why are we, especially as women, the hardest critics of ourselves, filled with imposter syndrome, filled with self-doubt? Yes. And that is so true. You against you, it's the biggest competition. Yeah, and it's like you're your own biggest battle, your biggest critic. And I think in that, it's made me face a lot of those. things It also like it's just so good for me mentally to be able to take my mind off of what I'm doing at work because it is really heavy and I'm very empathetic. So like when my people are having a hard time, like I'm crying with them, I'm walking away and feeling weighed down. You know if your kid is getting, you know, one of my patients is hospitalized, like it's all encompassing. So to have an outlet where I don't have to be so tuned in all the time is like so beneficial because you're literally fighting. How do you think of anything else when you're fighting? You can't, you literally can't, you can't. It's impossible. It helps with I would say like mindfulness and like present moment awareness, which I think a lot of people benefit from, especially too, because you're in these compromising physical situations in which you're kind of panicking and your breath is, you know, you're out of breath. And so I've had so many moments that have helped me get it more in tune with myself, where I've actually just like closed my eyes and just like stopped. And I'm just like, Okay, concentrate on your breath. What does your body want to do? And like that, I think also then builds trust between you versus you, which is another really cool thing. That's, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And with the whole breath thing and being out of breath and just having to think about all of that makes me think of of all of these people coming in to try martial arts and it being in really great shape and coming in there being like I'm gonna fuck it up I'm gonna be I'm gonna do so good. And then they're out of breath and dying within 20 seconds. And they're like, Oh wow, I don't know what's going on. What is you really cardio is good until you have to move constantly with 200 pounds on your body for six minutes without a break. Yeah. And also your adrenaline is going, your fight or flight is pumping. Yes, it's completely different than going on a treadmill or going for a run or any other sort of cardio activity. Yeah, yeah. And there's like this typical like stereotype of like this spazzy white belt. So like people that are trying this for the first time, they don't really know how to control their movements. They're very much in fight or flight, you know. People will make fun of that, but I try, if I'm in that situation with another person, to cue them into it and be like, " Hey, you're panicking right now. Slow down; like you're going to get exhausted So like it's okay. You don't have to, like you don't have to keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. That coaching is so important coming from. Anyone because anyone needs that. As a beginner, you don't know what you're doing. So it's really great to have the supportive environment where people are coaching you through that. Hey, I acknowledge that you are gassing yourself out way too quickly. Let me help you with that. Yes, which is again like another indicator of a good gym environment for a person, right? Because I've rolled especially with women who have come from like more male-dominated gyms where they're all just like beating the shit out of each other constantly, which is like if you're in a competition gym, like maybe that's good for you. But for like the average. hobbyist, which is who I am, like I'm not going to learn, you're not going to learn technique by just smashing somebody, right? So, I think I'm naturally a teacher. So, it also gives me some empowerment in that aspect of like there are people that haven't done this that long, maybe they're women, and I get a chance to connect with them and be like, Hey, like we can do this. Yeah, I love that approach so much. And it's so important. It's really great that you have the attitude going into it. And I'm sure so many people have been impacted by you just reaching out and being a good coach and being a good teacher and being empathetic. And we just, we need more of that Yeah, that's why I try to like spread the gospel. And like, I just I want people to come back. I want people to have an enjoyable experience. And if I am the determining factor in that, I think that that's like a big, that's a big privilege to determine whether or not somebody likes and does something that could literally change their life. So I think I take it very seriously. I love that. I love that. So I want to go back to when you said and mentioned,

and I really love this:

you versus you. Okay? So with that and jujitsu in general, how has your perspective on life and your own self-worth evolved since you started training? And what are the noticeable differences in your inner self-talk? So what was it before versus what your self-talk looks like now? That's that's incredible. That's that's huge though, because we're so good at doing that. Yeah, yeah, especially as women. Like, I think that that's like another theme that just keeps coming up as we're having this conversation is like, and what's so funny about like tying it back to this idea of like stepping into the space and how people might react. It's like I often see women coming in and being like really small and like kind of meek and like themselves smaller. Whereas I see a lot of men walk into the space with like the ego and they're like I'm supposed to be here I'm going to beat people up. And for me, it's a confidence builder also. And I've seen that in other women and I've seen that in myself of like I feel so much more confident and capable as a person because I'm showing up and doing this hard thing all the time. Yeah, it's incredibly empowering to show up in that way for any aspect of life. Yeah, yeah. So I think like before and after you versus you, like my confidence has definitely increased. I think a lot of people, and I try to point that out to people, I'm just like dude when you came here the first time, like you were scared you didn't talk. to you didn't do anything. And now you're just like rolling and doing a bunch of crazy stuff. And that's so important. It's so important to have people like you who point those things out. Because as we both know and are aware, it's really hard to sometimes think about those things yourself. So it's amazing when somebody else points those things out to you. And it's not like anybody should need validation, but it is nice. It is nice to hear those things. And those types of people that will reach out and just remind you of those things are so important. Yeah, and I think too it's also a really good way. There's a lot of proof of accomplishment. in doing the thing right. So like it's not like a subjective, oh well, like I showed up to work today, and like maybe I did an okay job. Maybe my boss really likes what I presented to them, but you never get that feedback. Whereas in jiu jitsu, you're like I've been trying to hit this bar for two weeks, and I actually got it or I got to that position. And so I think there's very tangible proof of progress that's really rewarding because you can't convince yourself that you're not doing the thing because you're getting to better positions; people are pointing them out, they're telling you that you're doing things differently or you're Improving. And that I think is really nice for me, who's like an anxious overthinker, that I'm just like I can talk myself out of anything I've done. You know, so I think that that would be great for people to be able to look at, like, there is tangible proof that when you keep showing up, you improve. And I think that people really like that. I agree. Tangible evidence is always really good to have to be able to propel you forward in your self-talk for sure, because you can reassure yourself, oh, I did do the thing. Oh, I did do that. And you start listing things out, even writing them on paper, and being able to visually then see, oh wow, I did do this. stuff I'm going to remind myself who I am and what I can accomplish. Yeah, yeah, I think I think just like increase in confidence. It's definitely changed some of my self-talk. It's also really, it really has hammered home for me. Have you ever heard of the one third rule? No, what is the one thirdrule? There's like a super famous clip of I think she's like an Olympic medalist or a track runner or somebody, and she talks about how her coach was telling her that basically one third of the time you're going to have an absolutely ass-kicking workout, and one third of the time you are going to have a mediocre workout, and one third of the time you are going to like have an exceptional workout which you feel really strong and capable. And that is overall kind of how it should feel and look. And you are having more ass-kicking days than mediocre and good days, then that might tell you maybe I'm training outside of my skills or maybe I am burnt out and I need more breaks. And so I often think in the one-third rule for the patients that I work with, that are like how are their days looking. For me, the one-third rule is like when I get my ass kicked on the mats, it's not that I'm bad. It's not that it's the end of the world. It's okay, I'm falling into the one-third and that's okay. So that to me helps. It's helped me find a middle ground and understand that the one third rule is applicable to all things. You can kind of give yourself a little grace when you're having worse days because it's not that you're bad. It's just part of the I love that. Yeah, the one third rule is a really helpful reframe, I think, for a lot of people, myself included. If we're living in a world devoid of stress and challenge, then you're always going to have great days, but that's not what life really is. So we really should aim for the one third rule so that way we're growing the way we need to grow. Yeah, that's a really good point. That can be applied. to any, like you said, any aspect of life. Anything. All of it. Yeah, exactly. If everything is really comfortable for you all the time, is it really comfortable? Let's be real here. If you're not uncomfortable in some aspect of your life, you're not growing, and us as humans, we're meant to grow and evolve and learn. Yes. And you don't grow without being uncomfortable and challenging yourself. And so you can live in this little comfort bubble, but mentally, I mean, I can't speak for anybody else, but I know me personally, if I'm comfortable all the time, I still am uncomfortable because I'm so comfortable. Exactly. And I fear like being stagnant. And I think that's always a big driver for me to join this sport also of like I don't want to be the person that just like lives comfortably. And, you know what, if I am in a physical altercation, like I don't want to I don't want to not know what to do. Right? So do I want to be comfy and like live in fear? Or do I want to be a little uncomfy and build confidence and know that I can do something differently? And right, yeah,

it's like that saying that you always hear:

choose your hard. It's going to be hard either way. So do you want to be hard and you're just stuck in your own little comfort bubble, or do you want it to be hard and challenge yourself? and grow and expand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, choose your heart. That's great! I think that that's so relevant. I think about that all the time. It's gonna be hard either way. So choose the one that you would like instead. I say to the parents that I work with all the time, I'm just like, the path forward is hard. No path that I'm going to walk you down is going to be easy. So we have to decide what does the hard look like. And I would prefer if the hard looked like providing teaching opportunities and like doing all these things differently instead of just letting it be hard to be hard. Right? Right. So, okay. So with that, can you tell me if you can think of any? any unique lessons that Jiu Jitsu has taught you that you didn't expect unexpected lessons. Yeah, like life lessons, unexpected lessons. I have now instituted something that's called the three-month rule for friendships specifically. So, okay, I'm so interested. I know I like keep throwing out all these fun terms. I'm like one-third rule, three-month rule. I love this. This is a Nikita, and I have decided that being in a community-driven space, and I think that that could be said for like a lifting gym versus a Jiu Jitsu gym, a lot of people come and go. And it's really easy to like fall in love with the idea of a person, but a lot of the time. They don't stay, and they don't show the same colors, and they end up leaving. And so, through Jiu Jitsu, I've realized just how important it is to give people time and space to be themselves before I, like, fall in love with that person or, like, build a strong friendship. Because I have met people at my Jiu Jitsu gym that I was like, I thought you were a friend, I thought you were this, and then time passed. And that wasn't the case. That sounds like good relationship advice. Also, it's great relationship advice. But I think it really highlighted that because that's the other unique thing about joining a martial art is I was never an athlete. So I was never in like an athletic-type environment, and it's like a playground, adult, right? Like, it's an opportunity we all get to play; we all get to do these things, which means there's going to be like fun, and weird, and bizarre human interactions. It can feel like a high school at times, and so you have to be boundary with the people that you go to the gym with because it's easy to be like, I like you, I want to spend time with you, I want to invite you to do things. But what's the commonality we have? Jiu Jitsu. It doesn't mean that we're going to be best friends. So I think it's helped me with friendships. It's hard though because I'm like I like connecting with people, right? I want to connect, and I don't want that person to, you know, I don't want to not be close with that person. But it's taught me to be a little patient and slow down and see over time, you know, is this person going to be somebody that can be a part of life, right? Or that you want to be a part of your life, more importantly? But that could be applied to anything, any relationship in life. Yeah, I think that's why it's such a cult, right? Because we learn all these lessons in this situation that do apply to other aspects of life. And then that's why people won't shut up about it. And that's okay. It's okay. I love I am a big supporter of anything that brings positivity and joy to somebody's life. Who is anybody to anybody else's interests? If it brings if it brings you happiness and joy, and yeah, yeah, if you want to rant and rave about something that you're passionate about, who is anybody to judge that? Exactly. Because you're not living their experience. You don't know what that's like for them. Right. And also, maybe people should spend less time worrying about what other people are ranting and raving about and find something that they could invest their time and energy in, and rant and rave about that also. Everybody needs something to be. passionate about. And I think that that is just, in general, such an admirable quality. And those are the types of people I want in my life. I want people that are passionate about things. I want people that will talk my ear off about birdwatching or book reading or jujitsu. Yeah. Embrace the weird! If you're not weird and passionate about stuff, you're not living. Yeah. And maybe I don't want to be your friend. I don't. To that point, I have come to the realization that I just don't want that type of person in my life anymore. The person that's just humdrum through life and woe is me and making comments that are negative about how other people. are living their lives. How is that serving me at all? It's not. No, it's not. It's not. And that's where, again, I think the sport is good. It can be good for those people, and it can be really bad for those people because it could mean that you're focusing on all the wrong things, because you care about who's in the gym and doing what. And then there's these people that just show up because they love to train and they want to get better. So, yeah, I think that that was a nice, unexpected lesson that I learned starting. Yeah. So on a related note, then what would your advice be to anyone considering starting jujitsu or any challenging new skill? Well I think I'll speak about jujitsu first. I probably could list off maybe five things that I would say are very essential. One, find a gym that you connect with. That is the key thing if you want to start. Invest in gear;I think that was another unexpected lesson and thing. Like I never considered like how much hygiene is involved in jujitsu. Like you're putting your head in some pretty fun places. Yeah, you want to make sure you're smelling good in all areas. Yeah, you all are getting close in gross ways, you know? Um, so so like clean yourself. Be clean; clean yourself after. Those would be like big sticking points. Like you want to start those. You would think that that would come without saying. I like, but like, I think the other thing for people, especially women, like walking into these spaces. Like those are the little things that caused me the most anxiety, was like, what do I wear? What do I put on my feet? Like, how do I get on and off the mats in the right way? It's like dumb little etiquette things that I think people would like to know. Like no shoes on the mat, you know, like keeping trimmed fingernails, like just stuff like that. I think it's good for people to know. I think also just prepare to maybe not like it for a little bit and just keep going. Don't just give up because it feels hard Give it the three month rule. Give it the three month rule because I, but I will say it is not everybody's cup of tea like that. And that's fine. Like for people that maybe have trauma, you know, that experienced fight or flight, you know, because they've been in physical situations, it could be a really great way to push through; that could also be really triggering. So, you know, I think be kind to yourself in that. But don't give up right away because you might end up really liking it if you could just get past that initial challenge. I think that's all really good advice. Thank you. Yeah, I got it all. I'll give you all the unsolicited advice. also No, it's all solicited. I want to hear about all of it. But so all of that was really great. We're going to get into my favorite part, which is the fun questions. But before we transition into that, I want to ask about your new podcast. Can you tell me a little bit about that and tell people where they can find you in the podcast? Yeah, so my podcast is Friends Living Well. It is a podcast with my best friend, Nikita. We're both therapists, and so we talk very much mental health therapy and just different aspects of our friendship. It's very, very therapy mental health focused. So if you're interested in learning more about anxiety. depression, somatic symptoms of stress, like all these things we're talking about them all the time. So we do bi-weekly episodes. We're on Instagram, and YouTube, and Spotify, and all those places. So check us out, like give us a couple of listens. What's your Instagram? That's a great question. I should probably know it off the top of my head. OK, it's friends living well pod on Instagram, and we've been doing some Q A stories on there. So if people have questions that they don't have a therapist, or they've been afraid to ask, ask away and we'll be able to talk about it, give you some of our insight. That's incredible. And Nikita, you mentioned her earlier You met her through jujitsu. So this is fantastic. Yeah. And the reason why it's called Friends Living Well is because her therapy, her private practice, is called Full Living Wellness. And I've joined her practice as well, doing some parent counseling and things like that. So we're doing, you know, we're working together. We're doing jujitsu together. We're doing a podcast together. I'm telling you, I love that. It makes me, it makes me so happy. Yeah, I'm happy for you. It's really fulfilling, and doing a podcast is super fun. It is a lot of fun. It's a lot of work. People don't realize how much work it actually is, but that's not me complaining It's it's just a lot of work and I would not be doing it if Tom didn't produce his own shout out to Tom shout out Tom our producer He does all of it He films it He clips it Um and he doesn't look for 0 because he loves meSo Tom if you want to edit my podcast too I'm not going to pay you but I know he's downstairs I might have to I might have to put that in his ear Thanks Tom All right well that's a great segue into fun questions My favorite part OK So the thing that we always ask or that I always ask on this podcast is who is somebody that you are grateful for and why Oh boy I have so many people that I'm grateful for That's so that's such a big question. The first person that comes to mind is Nikita. Like, I just love that! I'm obsessed with her. She's my person. She makes my life better, and I wouldn't change it for the world. I don't think I've ever met Nikita yet, but I would like to meet her. I think you would love her. We literally were just talking. We recorded an episode yesterday, and we were just like, maybe like this is the first lifetime that we've like been humans and best friends together. Like, maybe we've just been dogs best friend dogs in every other lifetime. And we just started crying. That's incredible! Yeah, I would love to meet her. So hopefully one day. Yeah, that. would be great. Yeah, OK, so next question.

Another thing I always like to ask is:

what are you currently listening to? This does not need to be something that has been just recently released. It could be literally anything released at any time. Just what's on your playlist? I am obsessed with Doji right now. Her album, 'An Alligator Bite Never Heals I believe is the title. Yeah, 'Alligator Bites Never Heal I'm obsessed with that album. I also have never listened to Tyler, the Creator before, but his new album, 'Chromocopia,' is also really fun to listen to. So those are actually somewhat recent, and I've been listening to them. a lot. Well, thank you for... Yeah, OK,

so now the next question is:

what is the most embarrassing thing, if you would like to share, that's happened during a training session? There's been a bunch. I think one of the most embarrassing I had an embarrassing moment the other week where I was rolling with one of my favorite training partners, and somehow, I guess I put my entire weight onto his fingers and all of his fingers bent back in a really uncomfortable way. So I've had a lot of those moments. I also got a friend of mine in a Kimura, and he was tapping, and I didn't know, and I was just cranking that. So that was very embarrassing. Can you explain? for anybody that might be listening that has no idea what that is, can you explain that to the common person? Yes, so a Kimura is basically, it's a way that you're holding the arm to essentially break the So I was basically bending his arm behind his back in a way that if I didn't let go, I would shatter his And so I did it a little hard, and I didn't realize that he was tapping and I ended up hurting him. So yeah, that was pretty embarrassing, and he still brings it up to this day. Straight through jail. Straight to Straight to That's great! Well, thank you for... Yeah, so next question, if you could pick any fictional character to roll with, who would It be and why. A fictional character to roll with. Oh my god, that's so funny. I'm like immediately picturing like a cartoon. I'm picturing like I don't know,

like Avatar:

The Last Airbender or something. Oh my god, that would be so fun, wouldn't it? Because he's just like a little scrawny guy, but he's got like crazy powers. So I suppose I'd try and fight that guy. Wouldn't he be able to use his airbending? Or just, I mean, well he's the so he has all elements, right? So I'm like, are we going to be like grappling like in the air? Is he going to set you on fire? Is he going to waterbend? Like, what is Aang going to do? What is Aang going to do? Great question, I don't know. I don't know why my mind immediately went there, but yeah, I would try that guy. That sounds fun. He could show you some new moves. That's what I'm saying. Like, is in this universe, do I have powers too? Because that would be amazing. Wow, well, that's, I mean, we could get into a whole episode of Make Believe. That sounds fun, doesn't it? Side tangents, right? That's going to be for when I have a, what the hell is it called when you charge people? Oh, a Patreon. Yeah, when I have a Patreon, I'll have side tangents. We'll talk about rolling with Aang, the Airbender. Yeah, or like a little, like 15 minute guys in between standard programming. Yeah, yeah, I love. that answer. All right, next question. If you could only listen to one song on repeat while you are training, what would it be? Probably like Killing in the Name of" by Rage Against the Machine, just because it's like it's such a banger and it's so, it's so much energy, but it has a slow buildup. Yeah, I do love the pace of that song on repeat. I feel like that would that's a really good choice. I like that choice. It's like you would get amped up, and it's like by the time we get to like that nice, you know, breakdown piece, I would be like just gripping and ripping at that point. I feel like that's a great song to represent you controlling your. You don't want to gas yourself immediately. You want to work up to that point. Yeah, it's not too hype, but it's just hype enough. It's just enough. It's like the Goldilocks and the Three Bears of songs to listen to on repeat. It is. I love that. I'm used to hearing a bunch of not excellent music during jujitsu, so I'm like anything close to Rage Against the Machine, like I will take it. Okay, well, next question. What is one staple you always have in your fridge or pantry? Tortilla chips. Oh, I love that answer! I'm such a chip girl, I'm such a chip girlie. I have three different types of I want to hear them. What kind of chips? So, these are amazing. I just have the horseradish and chive chips from Trader Joe's. It's very good. What do you eat? And it already has a ton of sodium, so I was like, let's go light. I'm all about the salt. Give me all the salt. I love salt. You're rolling around sweating; you can eat salt. I know, but I just like when I'm eating buffalo chicken dip. I'm like, I don't need all the salt because I got the hot sauce. It's true, if it doesn't bother you with the taste, then who cares? Yeah, so I'm a chip girl. Have you ever had Zapp's, the kettle-cooked voodoo chips? Are they always kettle-cooked? I think the Zapp's chips are always kettle-cooked, but they're just the voodoo chips they have. a really fun bag. They've got colorful voodoo people on them. I'm making this dancing move. Nobody can see what I'm dancing. You're painting a picture and it's great. Yeah, I have had those. I don't think they're my favorite though. Those are my favorites. I like a flavored chip. I haven't had those in a long time though. Those are like combining salt and vinegar and barbecue into one chip. And those are my favorite types of chips. I hate salt and All right, well, I can understand why people don't appreciate the salt, and but I do love the tangy. I'm a big tangy person. The other new thing that I've been ensuring to stock in my pantry is pickled. onions Pickled onions So you got your end of the Grillo's pickles right Because we both know Grillo's pickles are the best And now you updated me on theirs They got great lids Don't throw away that valuable brine Oh yeah you can repurpose itHot up some onions throw them in there and you got pickled onions Next question If you could create your own ice cream flavor what would it be Okay this is going to be crazy And it's very unlikely that people will like this When I was little and I still do it to this day I would put Reese's cups with my mint chocolate chip ice cream And I understand that sounds insane It is really good I will take your word for it. I've always been one of those people that just don't ever go for mint chocolate chip. I have no problems with it, but I would never choose it. Yeah, a lot of people don't like mint chocolate chip, but that is my favorite ice cream flavor. Reese's cups, all I'm here for it. Let's go. Okay, cool. I'm shocked I had an answer for that question. I'm really proud I love that. Yeah, because there's so many choices, I would have had trouble with that question. So I commend you for having such a great quick quality answer. All right, last question. It's a simple one, or maybe it's not. Do you think that air fryers are underrated, overrated, or Properly rated, I think they're underrated. Yeah, but maybe it used to be that people were really talking about them. I don't really feel like that's the case, but you can do so many things in an air fryer. And I feel like people should appreciate them a little bit more. Yeah, I, to be honest, don't use my conventional oven ever. You're like an air fryer queen! Like, I know that that's like your number one, and I have a giant air fryer. I never use it, so it's underrated in my... Wow! Yeah, I took a long time to actually purchase one because, in my mind, it's like, oh, another kitchen appliance that's gonna take up space. Then I used it at a friend's house. continuously. And I was like, these are the best things ever. Why don't I have one? And I got one, and I use it every day. That is why I don't use it; I don't want to clean it. That's what it does. I don't know if I'd like to admit this; I might edit this part out, but I don't do the best job of cleaning mine regularly. Yeah, they're a pain in the ass to clean, but when I do, I just put it in the sink, throw some hot water, and just do the best with scrubbing it. I mean, it's like a little oven; who cares? I know I should probably use it; I should probably bring it back out. So easy! It is so easy! I'm a woman of convenience and simplicity. Yeah, so it's great. Yeah, we're pro. Air fryers on this podcast, Pro air fryer, Pro jujitsu, right? Yes, Pro empowerment. Yes, and being passionate about stuff. Yes, we love that. Yeah, be weird and be loud about it. Well, Kelsey, thank you so much for joining me today. This was such a great conversation; I'm so excited to share it with everybody. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I really appreciate it. And maybe we need to do a crossover app on my podcast. Yeah, I would love that. Wouldn't that be fun? That would be fun. Yeah, we could talk about fun things. So, yeah, thanks for having me. All right, folks, well, that just about wraps up another episode of The Underwire. A huge thank you to Kelsey for Joining me today and sharing her incredible and very inspiring jujitsu journey, it positively impacted her life, and I hope this conversation highlighted how activities like jujitsu can benefit not just your physical health, but your mental and emotional well-being too. From building resilience to finding a sense of belonging in a supportive community, Kelsey’s story is such a powerful reminder of the life-changing potential in embracing new challenges and leaning into discomfort. As always, if you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to leave us a five-star rating, hit that subscribe button, and follow us on Instagram. at theunderwirepod. Hit us up and slide into those DMs because we'd love to hear your thoughts on the episode about your own experiences with trying new things or about a time where you chose your heart. Keep chasing those passions, stay weird, and we'll catch you on the next episode. See ya.

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Jess Goldey

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Ryan Rainbro

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