This Is Not a Side Quest: DIY, Self-Doubt, & Doing the Damn Thing with Mike McGinnis

On this episode, we’re diving into what it really takes to build something from the ground up—creatively, consistently, and without a roadmap.

Joining me is my good friend Mike McGinnis, a veteran of the South Jersey and Philly hardcore scene. Mike is the founder of Knife Hits Records and Heavy Claw Shipping, two self-made businesses rooted in the same DIY mentality that shaped him through years in the punk and hardcore scenes.

Mike’s one of those people who just does the thing, and this convo pulls back the curtain on what it actually looks like to be your own boss, navigate self-doubt, make messy progress, and build something sustainable while staying true to who you are.

He also shares how perfectionism might be the reason you’re stuck, and why just talking about your big idea isn’t the same as actually doing the damn thing. We also talk about the power of taking breaks, what to do when self-doubt creeps in, and how beating a rented video game in 36 hours (yes, really) might have been early training for the kind of grit it takes to run a business.

Follow Mike and check out his work:

• knifehitsrecords.com
•  heavyclaw.com
• Rid of Me on Spotify
• Fight Amp on Spotify

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT:

• The origin stories behind Knife Hits Records & Heavy Claw Shipping
• Owning your self-doubt without letting it run the show
• How urgency culture and outside pressure can sabotage your decision-making
• The power of small steps
• How music + DIY ethics shaped his work ethic
• Practical ways to reset your brain when you’re stuck
• Why talking about ideas can be a sneaky trap

A HUGE THANK YOU TO MY MONTHLY “BUY ME A COFFEE” SUPER SUPPORT SQUAD SUBSCRIBERS:

• Chrissy Duffin
• Sean Downing

• ALL LINKS HERE
• Instagram: @TheUnderwireOfficial
• Now on TikTok!: @TheUnderwireOfficial
• 1:1 Coaching: START HERE to Learn More!

Transcript

1:57

[Jess .] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of The Underwire,[Jess .] supporting you when life needs a lift.[Jess .] I'm your host Jess and today we're diving into the DIY trenches with[Jess .] someone who's built not one but two businesses— a record label,[Jess .] and a moving and shipping company— from the ground up while staying true to his values,[Jess .] his creativity,[Jess .] and his love for music.[Jess .] Today I'm joined by good friend Mike McGinnis,[Jess .] a longtime staple of the South Jersey and Philadelphia hardcore scene.[Jess .] Mike is the founder of Knife Hits Records and Heavy Claw Shipping[Jess .] and someone who's figured out how to blend creativity,[Jess .] resilience,[Jess .] and a whole lot of self-awareness into a sustainable,[Jess .] self-made career.[Jess .] From putting out records to moving gear and entire apartments up and down the East Coast,[Jess .] Mike's worth ethic and ethos are rooted in the same DIY mentality[Jess .] that shaped him growing up in punk and hardcore.[Jess .] And in this episode,[Jess .] we go deep into what it's actually like to build something from[Jess .] scratch without a roadmap.[Jess .] We talk about what it really means to be your own boss and how he[Jess .] deals with imposter syndrome without letting it run the show and how[Jess .] embracing imperfection has helped him stay consistent and grounded.[Jess .] Mike shares hard-earned wisdom on resisting urgency,[Jess .] building trust in yourself,[Jess .] and how knowing when to walk away or take a break can be the power[Jess .] move that no one teaches you.[Jess .] We also get into the sneaky trap of talking about doing things[Jess .] instead of actually taking action and why the tiniest,[Jess .] littlest steps are the real secret to accomplishing the big dreams.[Jess .] Plus,[Jess .] yeah,[Jess .] we talk about how needing to beat a rented video game in under 36[Jess .] hours might have been the early training for the grit it takes to run a business.[Jess .] Look,[Jess .] if you know,[Jess .] you know.[Jess .] So,[Jess .] if you're someone that's been putting pressure on yourself to have[Jess .] it all figured out or feeling stuck because your next move isn't clear,[Jess .] this conversation is your reminder that no step is too small,[Jess .] self-doubt is normal and a part of all of us,[Jess .] and more often than not,[Jess .] doing the thing messily is the only way forward.[Jess .] So,[Jess .] without further ado,[Jess .] let's get into it.[Jess .] Mike,[Jess .] it's so awesome to have you here.[Jess .] Thank you so much for doing this.[Mike McGinnis] Hey,[Mike McGinnis] Jess.[Mike McGinnis] How are you?[Mike McGinnis] I'm very happy to be here.[Jess .] I'm doing well.[Jess .] Thank you for asking.[Jess .] How are you?[Mike McGinnis] I'm good.[Mike McGinnis] Can't complain.[Jess .] Amazing.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] I can't wait to get into this today.[Jess .] You're obviously balancing a lot of things.[Jess .] You're a musician,[Jess .] entrepreneur,[Jess .] somebody who's built not one,[Jess .] but two successful businesses.[Jess .] I'd love to start by hearing about what...[Jess .] inspired that.[Jess .] So you have Knife Hits Records,[Jess .] a record label,[Jess .] Heavy Claw Shipping,[Jess .] Moving and Shipping.[Jess .] What made you want to take the leap into entrepreneurship in the first place?[Mike McGinnis] I think the word entrepreneur just happens to describe what I ended up doing.[Mike McGinnis] Between the record label and doing Heavy Claw,[Mike McGinnis] they stem from two very different chapters of my life.[Mike McGinnis] Knife Hits,[Mike McGinnis] the label,[Mike McGinnis] was absolutely out of necessity.[Mike McGinnis] It started 20 years ago,[Mike McGinnis] playing in a heavy DIY band in Fight Amp.[Mike McGinnis] We didn't even know people that ran record labels.[Mike McGinnis] So we wanted to release our music,[Mike McGinnis] and the best way to do it instead of,[Mike McGinnis] you know, 'Hey,[Mike McGinnis] we've heard of this label and we've heard of that label.[Mike McGinnis] Let's find out their phone numbers or something or their email addresses.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] we just did it ourselves.[Mike McGinnis] And then it just grew from there.[Mike McGinnis] And only in the past five years has it become something where I sort[Mike McGinnis] of just wanted to take that same ethos of,[Mike McGinnis] okay,[Mike McGinnis] there are so many good friends of mine and musicians that I love who[Mike McGinnis] don't know what to do or how to release things.[Mike McGinnis] And now that I know that,[Mike McGinnis] I just sort of want to bring...[Mike McGinnis] more people into within the means that i can do uh into that thing[Mike McGinnis] with people if they feel gate kept it's nice to be able to help[Mike McGinnis] people feel not gate kept and uh heavy claw like that was just me it[Mike McGinnis] was born of the pandemic and just it started as a side thing after[Mike McGinnis] being unemployed but By the time I had to get a job again,[Mike McGinnis] it felt like I didn't need to.[Mike McGinnis] And to me,[Mike McGinnis] that's like a rare opportunity.[Mike McGinnis] And I saw it as something that could,[Mike McGinnis] at the very least,[Mike McGinnis] give me a break.[Mike McGinnis] to maybe experience a little bit of the freedom to cut out of like[Mike McGinnis] workplaces that are designed to take advantage of their workers so[Mike McGinnis] it was like nice to kind of be able to just get away from that for a[Mike McGinnis] little while it comes with its own challenges obviously you know but[Mike McGinnis] it is nice not to be totally part of a system where i feel like[Mike McGinnis] there's like a boss or an entire structure set up to kind of like bleed you dry.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] And you get to make your own schedule and deal with the people that[Jess .] you would hopefully like to deal with.[Jess .] You know,[Jess .] if you have a.[Jess .] shitty person,[Jess .] you're like,[Jess .] I'm not going to help them out again.[Jess .] And you get to decide that.[Jess .] So that's really great that all of that is within your control.[Jess .] And something that you thought was just going to be a cool side gig[Jess .] pandemic project turned into a full-time lucrative thing.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] I'm actually now sort of transitioning into trying to put it into[Mike McGinnis] like more of like a 50-50 with like other things that I'm doing.[Mike McGinnis] But it was really nice to get to a point where I was like, 'Okay,[Mike McGinnis] it's time to be employed again.' And I was like, 'Wait,[Mike McGinnis] I kind of already am.[Mike McGinnis] It's me.' So yeah,[Mike McGinnis] it just sort of happened naturally,[Mike McGinnis] which is nice.[Jess .] And coming to that realization,[Jess .] how did that feel?[Jess .] Was that weird to be like, 'Oh yeah,[Jess .] I got this.[Jess .] That's cool.'.[Mike McGinnis] Well,[Mike McGinnis] it was amazing because any chance to not be part of like a structure[Mike McGinnis] where I have some chain of management above me is like amazing,[Mike McGinnis] you know?[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] yeah,[Jess .] you're telling me.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] most people understand it.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] to be your own boss,[Jess .] that's life goals,[Jess .] honestly.[Mike McGinnis] Hell yeah.[Jess .] So speaking of being lucrative,[Jess .] though,[Jess .] with a record label,[Jess .] I'm curious,[Jess .] are you making money?[Jess .] Have you made money?[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] it's not real income— everything sustains itself.[Mike McGinnis] If I have something that does well,[Mike McGinnis] and then I'm like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] I actually came out on top of this one significantly,' I pretty much[Mike McGinnis] will then be like, 'I was only going to do one more record next year,[Mike McGinnis] but now I can add another one.' You know,[Mike McGinnis] it's not necessarily— I don't really treat it as income.[Mike McGinnis] It's really just something that I enjoy doing so much.[Mike McGinnis] So,[Mike McGinnis] and if it were up to me,[Mike McGinnis] I would be doing it full time.[Mike McGinnis] So any chance I get to like put back into it,[Mike McGinnis] I do.[Jess .] What have you found the most success now compared to like when you[Jess .] first started Knife Hits?[Jess .] When was that,[Jess .] by the way?[Jess .] When did you start the label?[Mike McGinnis] 2004.[Jess .] Oh my goodness.[Jess .] Was that like 20?[Jess .] That's like 20.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] we just had the 20th anniversary last New Year's Eve.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] But it's changed form since then.[Mike McGinnis] So it's like that answer has a little bit of context just because[Mike McGinnis] there was an early version of it and then...[Mike McGinnis] It sort of went away for a little bit.[Mike McGinnis] And then we kind of revived it in order to co-release one of my ex-bands,[Mike McGinnis] Low Dose.[Mike McGinnis] We wanted to have more of a hand in the release of that rather than[Mike McGinnis] just hand it over to another label completely.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] and same with like the last Fight Amp record.[Mike McGinnis] So there were like these stages.[Mike McGinnis] The most recent stage when I was kind of sitting on my hands a[Mike McGinnis] little bit in 2020 during the pandemic,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I just wanted to find a way to be more involved in music without[Mike McGinnis] having a second band,[Mike McGinnis] which is.[Mike McGinnis] I think what a lot of people were like, 'I want to do more with[Mike McGinnis] music.' So it's like,[Mike McGinnis] and I've done it and it like never works.[Mike McGinnis] So I'd be like,[Mike McGinnis] I could do two or three bands.[Mike McGinnis] And then I'm just like,[Mike McGinnis] nope,[Mike McGinnis] it just does not work for me.[Mike McGinnis] But a label and a band I 100% can handle.[Jess .] So you mentioned that you would like for the label to be your full-time thing.[Jess .] What do you think would be necessary for you to get to that point?[Mike McGinnis] It's so tricky because I'm sure you know,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] it's just like,[Mike McGinnis] there's just not a lot of money in the music industry.[Mike McGinnis] There's money there,[Mike McGinnis] but it's like,[Mike McGinnis] I am sort of adamant about not,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] I would never release something that I don't.[Mike McGinnis] Really like.[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] even if I was like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] that's gonna make me money,' I don't know.[Mike McGinnis] I probably would need to like pump more money into it,[Mike McGinnis] which I don't really have that kind of money to pump into it.[Mike McGinnis] I would have to just have like multiple records— just be like the[Mike McGinnis] goose that laid the golden egg to fund the next ones.[Mike McGinnis] But I never really expect that to happen.[Mike McGinnis] The music industry is just such a wild place.[Mike McGinnis] So I'm happy with where it's at,[Mike McGinnis] but in a perfect world,[Mike McGinnis] I'd be doing it more.[Jess .] What do you think is the most lucrative thing?[Jess .] Are CDs still selling?[Jess .] What type of thing sells the most?[Jess .] I'm really curious to hear what does well versus what doesn't.[Mike McGinnis] Believe it or not,[Mike McGinnis] CDs still do well,[Mike McGinnis] which I am blown away by.[Mike McGinnis] I just brought them back from my most recent release.[Mike McGinnis] But vinyl does the best.[Mike McGinnis] Everybody wants vinyl,[Mike McGinnis] but it has so many challenges to it.[Mike McGinnis] It's very expensive to make.[Mike McGinnis] It's slow to make,[Mike McGinnis] although it's better than it was a couple of years ago.[Mike McGinnis] Digital is like peanuts,[Mike McGinnis] but you know,[Mike McGinnis] when you have a label and you have a whole lot of bands,[Mike McGinnis] then that all adds up.[Mike McGinnis] somewhat,[Mike McGinnis] but it's vinyl for sure.[Mike McGinnis] But it just,[Mike McGinnis] there's so many challenges to that.[Mike McGinnis] And we have a record on pre-order right now that has both vinyl and[Mike McGinnis] CD and the vinyl is outselling everything else as expected.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I was going to say that.[Jess .] That doesn't surprise me.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] just is what it is.[Mike McGinnis] I think CDs are making a,[Mike McGinnis] they've never gone away,[Mike McGinnis] which is wild.[Mike McGinnis] But recently,[Mike McGinnis] I think that people are looking at them as collectible again,[Mike McGinnis] which is wild.[Mike McGinnis] But awesome because I stand for physical media in general.[Mike McGinnis] So if it's a CD,[Mike McGinnis] awesome,[Mike McGinnis] whatever.[Mike McGinnis] I really like cassettes.[Mike McGinnis] The boom that happened just a couple years ago kind of came down to earth,[Mike McGinnis] I've noticed.[Mike McGinnis] And every person that I'm friends with that runs another label says the same thing.[Mike McGinnis] Oh yeah,[Mike McGinnis] cassettes,[Mike McGinnis] the bubble kind of burst a little bit,[Mike McGinnis] but they're still there and some people still want them.[Jess .] I like cassette tapes as a collectible item,[Jess .] but I don't even have a tape player.[Jess .] So that's legitimately all that it is.[Mike McGinnis] That's cool.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] I kind of look at it that way.[Mike McGinnis] In this day and age,[Mike McGinnis] releases like almost everyone is listening to their new music digitally,[Mike McGinnis] even if they buy a record.[Mike McGinnis] So I just look at,[Mike McGinnis] even if I put out a record and it's cassette and digital only,[Mike McGinnis] the cassette is just a way to have sort of like an artifact for the release.[Mike McGinnis] And if I even think that,[Mike McGinnis] if someone is like, 'Oh no,' I'll buy a cassette and display it on my shelf,[Mike McGinnis] but I love the record and I'm going to listen to it digitally.[Mike McGinnis] That's still just as good as whether you're putting the cassette in a tape deck or not,[Mike McGinnis] you know?[Jess .] I agree.[Jess .] I think that's a good perspective to have because it's art.[Jess .] There's something different about having the physical media as[Jess .] opposed to the digital content.[Jess .] It's great for convenience.[Jess .] Digital stuff is great for the convenience of being able to listen to it whenever,[Jess .] wherever.[Jess .] You don't have to carry something around.[Jess .] But it is really cool to have the physical media itself for display purposes.[Jess .] You know,[Jess .] the artwork is cool.[Jess .] All of the amount of work that goes into the creation of the[Jess .] physical media is also really cool.[Jess .] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] And to be able to display it and not just look at it on a screen,[Mike McGinnis] I think is huge.[Mike McGinnis] And honestly,[Mike McGinnis] like that from like when the label started 20 years ago till now,[Mike McGinnis] that mindset is one of the ways that I've had to adapt,[Mike McGinnis] even just like thinking about it that way rather than be like,[Mike McGinnis] no,[Mike McGinnis] like.[Mike McGinnis] Fuck digital like we had like physical only you know like all that[Mike McGinnis] yeah old school nonsense you know like that's so that is one of the[Mike McGinnis] ways that just having to like embrace like the digital age whether[Mike McGinnis] you like it or not it just is what it is and yeah that that's been[Mike McGinnis] one of the biggest changes for sure Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I'm sure.[Jess .] So along with changes,[Jess .] you brought up challenges,[Jess .] which I'm sure there are quite a few.[Jess .] But the thing that I want to touch on now is that starting something new can,[Jess .] I'm sure,[Jess .] bring up a shit ton of self-doubt.[Jess .] So how did you push past those types of any harsh self-judgment or[Jess .] criticism in the early days when you first got started,[Jess .] not just with a record label,[Jess .] but with your moving company?[Mike McGinnis] Well,[Mike McGinnis] I don't know if I ever have fully pushed past them.[Mike McGinnis] I think I would maybe even give this as advice.[Mike McGinnis] If you're someone who,[Mike McGinnis] if you are a little hard on yourself or something,[Mike McGinnis] I found it easier just to accept that I am and let myself be,[Mike McGinnis] but not let it stop me.[Mike McGinnis] It's like raising my standards,[Mike McGinnis] but I've never been someone who's like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] I'm being hard on myself.' Therefore,[Mike McGinnis] like I quit unless it's a job that I hate or something.[Mike McGinnis] You know what I mean?[Mike McGinnis] If I'm working towards something,[Mike McGinnis] I've definitely been my own worst critic.[Mike McGinnis] And I think just accepting that that's just the way I am is how I[Mike McGinnis] got past it personally.[Jess .] I think that's such a great way to approach it.[Jess .] You know,[Jess .] you would acknowledge that the imposter syndrome or what have you is there,[Jess .] but you don't let it dictate your actions.[Jess .] And I think that that...[Jess .] is incredible.[Jess .] Like that,[Jess .] that really is such a thing that you,[Jess .] I hope that you're proud of because a lot of people let that get in[Jess .] the way of them doing whatever it is that they're trying to do.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] I know.[Mike McGinnis] Thank you.[Mike McGinnis] It took me a minute to get there.[Mike McGinnis] But again,[Mike McGinnis] I just think like the acceptance of myself and be like,[Mike McGinnis] oh,[Mike McGinnis] you just are like this.[Mike McGinnis] So instead of being like, 'stop being like that,' be like, 'oh,[Mike McGinnis] you're like this.' So let it just be a part of the process.[Mike McGinnis] And I think when I really first embraced that was when I started to[Mike McGinnis] learn how to self-record,[Mike McGinnis] which was maybe about 15 years ago or so now.[Mike McGinnis] And,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] it was very rudimentary when it still is.[Mike McGinnis] But I mean,[Mike McGinnis] even back then it was just like.[Mike McGinnis] As bare bones as could possibly be.[Mike McGinnis] And the learning curve is all bunched up at the beginning.[Mike McGinnis] And I was like, 'This is impossible.' And then I was like, 'But you[Mike McGinnis] always say that about everything.' And that was sort of me being like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] wait.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] this will just take time.' And as time goes by,[Mike McGinnis] even if I'm doubting myself,[Mike McGinnis] I'll still learn.[Jess .] That's such a great way to look at it.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I'm not going to stop doing that.[Jess .] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] there's no way.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] I've had people be like,[Mike McGinnis] don't be so hard on yourself.[Mike McGinnis] I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] that's easier said than done.[Mike McGinnis] And then once I was,[Mike McGinnis] well,[Mike McGinnis] I'm just going to be like that.[Mike McGinnis] but I can still do this thing.[Mike McGinnis] Right.[Jess .] And that's important because that self-doubt will always creep in[Jess .] and be there no matter what level you are.[Jess .] And I think that that says something to you as a person that you[Jess .] don't have this giant ego that you think that,[Jess .] oh,[Jess .] I'm just the best at everything and blah,[Jess .] blah,[Jess .] blah.[Jess .] I think that having,[Jess .] I think that having that imposter syndrome just be present is a sign that,[Jess .] you know what?[Jess .] I'm human and that's okay,[Jess .] but I'm not going to let this bully dictate what I'm doing.[Jess .] And one of my favorite analogies that I've come up with with my own[Jess .] imposter syndrome is,[Jess .] and I think that you'll appreciate this,[Jess .] is in Home Alone,[Jess .] okay,[Jess .] in the beginning of the movie,[Jess .] Kevin hates going down in the basement.[Jess .] He is scared of that furnace.[Jess .] He will run up the stairs and he will let that furnace dictate what[Jess .] he's doing in that basement,[Jess .] okay?[Jess .] But by the end of the movie...[Jess .] He goes down to the basement,[Jess .] no problem at all.[Jess .] And he tells the furnace to shut the hell up.[Jess .] And he just goes about his business.[Jess .] And to me,[Jess .] my imposter syndrome is that furnace that's still there,[Jess .] still grumbling,[Jess .] still making noise in the background.[Jess .] And I'm just Kevin McCallister being all like, 'shut up,' you know,[Jess .] and does not feel liberating.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] yeah.[Mike McGinnis] You know what's funny is I think that was probably intentional when[Mike McGinnis] they made that movie,[Mike McGinnis] right?[Mike McGinnis] It probably was.[Mike McGinnis] It probably was.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] what you just said may have been someone in that,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] writer's room was like,[Mike McGinnis] you know.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] This is a metaphor,[Mike McGinnis] but yeah.[Mike McGinnis] No,[Mike McGinnis] but absolutely.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] I think that if you're someone who experiences some kind of[Mike McGinnis] self-doubt or some form of imposter syndrome,[Mike McGinnis] it's because— you've maybe learned at some point in your life to[Mike McGinnis] keep your ego in check.[Mike McGinnis] I think that your ego can really hurt you.[Mike McGinnis] It needs to be there somewhat,[Mike McGinnis] but I think that squashing it sometimes is huge and can really allow[Mike McGinnis] you to grow inside your own head.[Jess .] I completely agree with all of that.[Jess .] Along those lines,[Jess .] I want to ask,[Jess .] so you said that it's something that never leaves.[Jess .] It's part of the process.[Jess .] So after being in the music industry and running businesses for quite some time now,[Jess .] what is one thing do you think that you still struggle with the most?[Mike McGinnis] It's normally things like I can't control and I just have to like,[Mike McGinnis] it sort of touches on some of the stuff we talked about earlier.[Mike McGinnis] Just like,[Mike McGinnis] especially if we're talking about like the record label,[Mike McGinnis] sometimes it's really easy to get in your head that like.[Mike McGinnis] trends matter and on a grand scale they don't i think the goal with[Mike McGinnis] a lot of people that make music is to make it timeless and like you[Mike McGinnis] know trends are there's things that come and go but it's really easy[Mike McGinnis] to like look at them like especially when you're like someone who is[Mike McGinnis] in touch because you're running a label,[Mike McGinnis] it's easy to get fooled into thinking these things like,[Mike McGinnis] oh,[Mike McGinnis] well,[Mike McGinnis] this is the way it is now.[Mike McGinnis] It's not necessarily true.[Mike McGinnis] And I have to check myself on that thought process like all the time.[Mike McGinnis] That's basically stuff like that,[Mike McGinnis] that I just have to check myself on.[Mike McGinnis] And then when it comes to just like myself,[Mike McGinnis] it's just like class level,[Mike McGinnis] be able to like control what you can pull off and your future and stuff like that.[Mike McGinnis] And that's also not necessarily true,[Mike McGinnis] although it certainly can hinder you.[Mike McGinnis] It's just things I have to remind myself that they can be worked past.[Jess .] So what does that look like when you're working past them?[Jess .] Like,[Jess .] what does your self-talk look like when you're trying to overcome[Jess .] something that you might be struggling with?[Mike McGinnis] For example,[Mike McGinnis] if I'm sitting there and saying, 'I love this,' but I don't think[Mike McGinnis] it's going to land at all.[Mike McGinnis] I sort of just accept that if it doesn't,[Mike McGinnis] it doesn't like what's the worst that could happen.[Mike McGinnis] You know what I mean?[Mike McGinnis] Like that's,[Mike McGinnis] that's all I'm going to be alive tomorrow.[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] so I don't know,[Mike McGinnis] like if I believe in something and I believe in it.[Mike McGinnis] And also that one of my big things is that,[Mike McGinnis] and this is for like anything,[Mike McGinnis] like if you're like learning a new skill or starting a new job,[Mike McGinnis] I've used skills that I've learned 20 years ago.[Mike McGinnis] And then.[Mike McGinnis] put to sleep for a long time,[Mike McGinnis] as recently as just a few months ago.[Mike McGinnis] So throughout your life,[Mike McGinnis] it's not as linear as it may seem,[Mike McGinnis] I guess.[Mike McGinnis] So even if something feels like if you're doubting yourself or what[Mike McGinnis] you're working on at the time,[Mike McGinnis] the seeds that you plant might sprout.[Mike McGinnis] again in five years or six months or eight years or 20 years,[Mike McGinnis] you know?[Mike McGinnis] So yeah,[Mike McGinnis] just not looking at it so linearly is what I do a lot.[Mike McGinnis] And that helps me.[Jess .] I think those are really great things.[Jess .] I mean,[Jess .] the two that you mentioned,[Jess .] the part where you said,[Jess .] I'll still be alive tomorrow.[Jess .] What's the worst that could happen if I do this?[Jess .] And really,[Jess .] I think that there's so much— to learn from making your choices like that.[Jess .] Sometimes you just need to make a choice and then decide on whatever[Jess .] that choice is later.[Jess .] You know,[Jess .] do I like this?[Jess .] Do I not like this?[Jess .] Do I need to pivot?[Jess .] And also the point that you mentioned about seeds that you plant.[Jess .] I mean,[Jess .] how many times has something happened where you just,[Jess .] I'm like,[Jess .] I'm going to just lay the groundwork down for this,[Jess .] but not really expect anything of it.[Jess .] And then weeks,[Jess .] months,[Jess .] even years later,[Jess .] something.[Jess .] Come of that person that you talked to that you were like, 'Oh,[Jess .] well,[Jess .] I don't know if I really made an impact or that CD that you released.' You're like, 'Oh,[Jess .] I don't really know if people like this.'.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] even we had a little bit of a precursor conversation before we started recording.[Mike McGinnis] And the band I play in,[Mike McGinnis] Rid of Me,[Mike McGinnis] we're writing a new record right now.[Mike McGinnis] And one of the songs that we're working on,[Mike McGinnis] it's actually the only one that I laid the groundwork for initially.[Mike McGinnis] I think I started writing it three years ago and put it to sleep.[Mike McGinnis] And suddenly I'm like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] I thought this was in the trash pile.' And that's happened to me so many times.[Mike McGinnis] So I think sometimes it might feel like it's really easy to be like[Mike McGinnis] , 'What am I working on?' and then, 'That's trash.' And it's not,[Mike McGinnis] it never is.[Mike McGinnis] Things can always come back and things you learn,[Mike McGinnis] things you do,[Mike McGinnis] things you create,[Mike McGinnis] they can be timeless.[Mike McGinnis] People can discover what you've done even far after you've passed away.[Mike McGinnis] There's a lot of great writers and artists and creators throughout history that really,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] didn't even leave a mark on history until they weren't there for a[Mike McGinnis] couple hundred years,[Mike McGinnis] if not longer.[Jess .] I think that's a great perspective to have.[Jess .] I love all of that.[Jess .] I think all of that is so important and life is not that serious either,[Jess .] so.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] right,[Mike McGinnis] exactly.[Mike McGinnis] For a lot of people it is.

[Mike McGinnis] And that's sort of the other thing: 21:33

even if like we struggle on a day-to-day basis,[Mike McGinnis] there are so many people in the world that are struggling in ways[Mike McGinnis] that we can't even fathom and they are fighting for their lives.[Mike McGinnis] And like,[Mike McGinnis] I had to remind myself of that too— that I'm lucky to be in the[Mike McGinnis] position that I'm in and not actually making life and death decisions,[Mike McGinnis] you know?[Jess .] Right.[Jess .] Like we're not doing heart surgery.[Mike McGinnis] That,[Mike McGinnis] that,[Mike McGinnis] exactly.[Jess .] So maybe,[Jess .] maybe that would be a different conversation,[Jess .] but just,[Jess .] you know,[Jess .] what pair of pants do I want to put on today?[Jess .] I don't know.[Jess .] People are going to judge me if I wear these versus the other ones.[Jess .] I don't know.[Jess .] You know,[Jess .] I made a mistake.[Jess .] But yo— speaking of mistakes,[Jess .] I want to hear about a time that you made a mistake and you were[Jess .] like, 'Oh shit,' but you learned so much from it.[Jess .] Can you think of a time that that happened?[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] I've made so many mistakes.[Mike McGinnis] That's good.[Jess .] That's a good thing.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] absolutely.[Mike McGinnis] I don't know.[Mike McGinnis] I guess like doing things like biting off more than you can chew,[Mike McGinnis] I guess,[Mike McGinnis] which I've done and like have bitten off more than I can chew and[Mike McGinnis] jumped into things way too fast.[Mike McGinnis] Like I can think of like John Dehart who plays in 'Rid of Me' with[Mike McGinnis] me and played in 'Fight Amp' with me the entire time.[Mike McGinnis] We were just talking the other day,[Mike McGinnis] like about a mistake that we made.[Mike McGinnis] One of the few regrets that we have in that band is that the second[Mike McGinnis] full length that we like rushed into the recording process.[Mike McGinnis] Rather than like letting the record develop a little bit more in the[Mike McGinnis] writing process before we jumped in.[Mike McGinnis] And it felt like it was sort of like outside pressure where we were like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] well,[Mike McGinnis] we have to.' It's this amount of time.[Mike McGinnis] And that's the rule for some reason,[Mike McGinnis] even though it's not.[Mike McGinnis] And I think about that all the time.[Mike McGinnis] It's like,[Mike McGinnis] it's talking about the thing we were just talking about when it[Mike McGinnis] comes to like time and everything.[Mike McGinnis] Like anyone who's paying attention,[Mike McGinnis] they're just going to dump their thoughts into a comment section somewhere.[Mike McGinnis] And then a year is going to go by and no one's going to care when[Mike McGinnis] your record came out.[Mike McGinnis] All they really care about is whether it's good or not.[Mike McGinnis] So rushing into things because of outside pressures,[Mike McGinnis] that was a specific time I did it and I've done it before and I've[Mike McGinnis] tried to just squash that.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] I can see how that could become very frustrating.[Jess .] So knowing that,[Jess .] has that helped you plan for things differently in the future when making decisions?[Mike McGinnis] Absolutely.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] I think not allowing like outside pressure or criticism is[Mike McGinnis] important— of course,[Mike McGinnis] like constructive criticism and suggestions are very important.[Mike McGinnis] But you have to take them as just that and not the end all be all.[Mike McGinnis] And I've definitely felt like.[Mike McGinnis] pressure to hurry up and tour or hurry up and make this business decision.[Mike McGinnis] And then when you think about it,[Mike McGinnis] you're like, 'Why am I being told this?' It actually doesn't make any sense.[Mike McGinnis] What does someone even have to gain for telling me that?[Mike McGinnis] A lot of times when people give you advice or they're pressuring you a little bit,[Mike McGinnis] oftentimes they're like projecting and talking about their own situation,[Mike McGinnis] even though they're talking to you and you might be sitting at a bar[Mike McGinnis] having a drink and you're like, 'I'm getting this advice right now.'[Mike McGinnis] But then if you really think about it,[Mike McGinnis] you're like, 'They were sort of talking to themselves.' So it's just[Mike McGinnis] helped me think about it that way.[Mike McGinnis] Again,[Mike McGinnis] I'm not saying don't take advice.[Mike McGinnis] Don't ask for help.[Mike McGinnis] Don't ask for advice.[Mike McGinnis] Always ask for constructive criticism.[Mike McGinnis] But sometimes I do think that people project when they do those things.[Mike McGinnis] And I try to just maintain that perspective that that may be the case.[Jess .] Yes.[Jess .] I think that you bring up a really good point that the people that[Jess .] you go to for advice,[Jess .] you need to be sure of who that person is.[Jess .] Or if these people,[Jess .] whoever it may be,[Jess .] are giving you advice,[Jess .] you have to know the difference between...[Jess .] okay,[Jess .] well,[Jess .] I can take their advice to heart because I know 110% that this[Jess .] person has my back and what's best for me versus,[Jess .] oh,[Jess .] this person might be projecting or might...[Jess .] be envious or might be like,[Jess .] there are all sorts of things.[Jess .] And it's not even like that other person trying to give you advice[Jess .] that they mean to be doing something.[Mike McGinnis] Oh no.[Mike McGinnis] A lot of times it's completely subconscious.[Mike McGinnis] They're just unaware.[Mike McGinnis] I think I,[Mike McGinnis] I have probably been guilty of it.[Mike McGinnis] Like I probably told friends advice and not even known that I was[Mike McGinnis] sort of projecting a little bit.[Mike McGinnis] I think it's something you just do.[Mike McGinnis] So I just think it's important to not feel pressure from advice,[Mike McGinnis] I guess,[Mike McGinnis] is what it really comes down to.[Mike McGinnis] Even if someone means well,[Mike McGinnis] it's good to take it into consideration,[Mike McGinnis] but also consider it as equally to something that's within your own gut.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] And that's also something that's really important and something I[Jess .] want to bring to your attention that I hope that,[Jess .] again,[Jess .] I hope you're proud of because it seems like through all of these discoveries,[Jess .] you have grown to a point where you're able to trust yourself.[Jess .] And that is something that a lot of people really,[Jess .] really struggle with.[Jess .] And that is why people struggle with the imposter syndrome,[Jess .] letting that debilitate them or struggling with pressures of[Jess .] hurrying up because we're all feeling pressures every single day.[Jess .] I feel pressure to hurry up,[Jess .] but it's like— what?[Jess .] For why?[Jess .] Why are we all trying to hurry?[Jess .] And going back to what you said before about things being part of the process,[Jess .] the process is life.[Jess .] And if we don't slow the fuck down sometimes,[Jess .] we're just going to— if we're all hurrying up to do what?[Jess .] To die?[Jess .] Like,[Jess .] I'm good.[Mike McGinnis] Exactly.[Mike McGinnis] Seriously.[Mike McGinnis] Or get to work.[Mike McGinnis] No,[Mike McGinnis] I hear you.[Mike McGinnis] But I still struggle with those things all the time.[Mike McGinnis] It's just as I become older,[Mike McGinnis] I become more aware of it.[Mike McGinnis] And then it's good to just like...[Mike McGinnis] know where certain thoughts,[Mike McGinnis] sometimes I can check myself and be like, 'Wait a second,[Mike McGinnis] why am I operating with this urgency right now?' And then sometimes[Mike McGinnis] there's no answer at all.[Mike McGinnis] And I go, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] well,[Mike McGinnis] I don't have to do that.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] that's great.[Jess .] That's cool.[Jess .] I could give my permission to not do anything right now.[Jess .] That's fantastic.[Jess .] Fantastic.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] Wow.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] But that's a skill.[Jess .] That's,[Jess .] that's hard to struggle with all of the things going on in your brain.[Jess .] Just check yourself and be like, 'Well.'.[Mike McGinnis] Most of us,[Mike McGinnis] most of us,[Mike McGinnis] had that skill when we were kids,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] and we lost it sometime.[Mike McGinnis] I don't,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] when people generally lose it sometime in high school,[Mike McGinnis] maybe,[Mike McGinnis] but I think most people have it and lose it.[Mike McGinnis] And then a lot of it is about getting back in touch with it again.[Mike McGinnis] Again,[Mike McGinnis] I'm guilty of it all.[Mike McGinnis] Sometimes I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] what am I doing?[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] but just knowing how to like detect that it's happening,[Mike McGinnis] I think is like.[Mike McGinnis] And I don't know why,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] maybe it has something to do with the time we're growing up in and having,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] a cell phone that's a computer in our pockets at all times.[Mike McGinnis] It's the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] like maybe all that is part of it.[Mike McGinnis] I don't know.[Mike McGinnis] But we all are,[Mike McGinnis] I think,[Mike McGinnis] are born with being like,[Mike McGinnis] this could take as long as it takes.[Mike McGinnis] It doesn't matter.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] And we're taught to 'get going,' especially here in the Northeast.[Mike McGinnis] So.[Jess .] Right.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] just in America in general,[Jess .] that's just.[Mike McGinnis] Absolutely.[Jess .] Just go,[Jess .] go,[Jess .] go.[Jess .] Do as much as you can.[Jess .] So.[Jess .] It makes sense that we're conditioned to feel that way.[Jess .] And then in our adult life,[Jess .] we have to learn to unlearn all of that conditioning.[Jess .] And it's really difficult.[Mike McGinnis] Absolutely.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] it's definitely a product of the system that we live in.[Mike McGinnis] And some people break free of it.[Mike McGinnis] Other people embrace it wholeheartedly.[Mike McGinnis] And I personally,[Mike McGinnis] I think more people should strive to maybe just take a walk in the[Mike McGinnis] woods or lay on a beach.[Mike McGinnis] If they can,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] some people get into situations where they don't have that privilege and I understand.[Mike McGinnis] But,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] if you have the privilege to be able to do that,[Mike McGinnis] just do it.[Mike McGinnis] You're missing out if not.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I mean,[Jess .] taking a walk is something that's so underrated in nature,[Jess .] even just in the city.[Jess .] Like,[Jess .] it doesn't matter where you are.[Jess .] Just taking a walk outside is so underrated and can make you feel so much better.[Jess .] Even if it's just 1% better physically,[Jess .] mentally,[Jess .] it just makes a world of a difference.[Mike McGinnis] And better is better,[Mike McGinnis] right?[Jess .] Exactly.[Jess .] 1% better is still better.[Mike McGinnis] Still better.[Mike McGinnis] Yep.[Jess .] And everybody,[Jess .] I think most people can have access to going for a walk somewhere.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I think,[Mike McGinnis] again,[Mike McGinnis] I live in the city.[Mike McGinnis] It's beautiful to walk around here.[Mike McGinnis] And I know some people live in places that maybe are a little bit[Mike McGinnis] dangerous to walk around and stuff like that.[Mike McGinnis] So if that's the case.[Mike McGinnis] And unfortunately,[Mike McGinnis] it is a lot.[Mike McGinnis] That's a shame.[Mike McGinnis] And honestly,[Mike McGinnis] like that's like a failure,[Mike McGinnis] a failure of our leadership.[Mike McGinnis] Yes.[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] like I think everyone should have access to those things.[Mike McGinnis] And the fact that some people don't is really just a top-down[Mike McGinnis] failure system we live in.[Jess .] Yep.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] we can't get into that because we'll be here for a very long time.[Jess .] But,[Jess .] you know,[Jess .] kind of related,[Jess .] I guess.[Jess .] I wanted to ask you when the going gets tough,[Jess .] like on your worst days,[Jess .] when you're having,[Jess .] when nothing seems to be going right,[Jess .] when you're just really frustrated.[Jess .] What's your go-to mindset shift?[Jess .] So,[Jess .] you know,[Jess .] we were just talking about going for a walk.[Jess .] Is that something that you would do if you need to shift your mindset?[Jess .] Or can you think of a time when you're in your own head,[Jess .] but pushed through and you were proud of yourself that you did?[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] like what's my go-to?[Mike McGinnis] Like I need to like reconfigure the way I'm thinking about this[Mike McGinnis] situation or day right now?[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] do you have a default when shit's hitting the fan and you just need[Jess .] to pause and kind of shift?[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] First of all,[Mike McGinnis] I think that this is extremely important.[Mike McGinnis] There's always a time where you have no choice but to power through.[Mike McGinnis] Of course,[Mike McGinnis] we've all been there.[Mike McGinnis] I traveled for work and I'm on a job site or something and I'm like, 'Well,[Mike McGinnis] I can't leave.[Mike McGinnis] It just is what it is.' But if you have the choice,[Mike McGinnis] if you're spinning your wheels on something,[Mike McGinnis] and I have done it a lot— if you have the choice to get up and walk[Mike McGinnis] away and go get a good meal or take a walk or go to sleep and then[Mike McGinnis] come back to sometimes you can solve a problem that you're sitting[Mike McGinnis] there and be like, 'I've been at this for two hours' and come back and be like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] it took me 20 minutes.' Your frame of mind is huge.[Mike McGinnis] My default is to take a walk,[Mike McGinnis] maybe sit down somewhere and have like a sandwich and a beer or meet[Mike McGinnis] up with a friend and do that or hike.[Mike McGinnis] It's huge for me.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] it'll completely clear my mind,[Mike McGinnis] but I'm a firm believer in like sleeping on things too.[Mike McGinnis] If you have the luxury,[Mike McGinnis] if you're in a situation where you're like, 'This doesn't have to be[Mike McGinnis] done by six in the morning or three in the morning or something.' If[Mike McGinnis] you have the luxury to sleep on something and come back to it,[Mike McGinnis] you can save yourself a whole lot of aggravation,[Mike McGinnis] frustration,[Mike McGinnis] and time too.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I can't tell you how many times where I've been frustrated with[Jess .] something and just the pause of just reconfiguring my thoughts in my brain.[Jess .] Like,[Jess .] okay,[Jess .] this is what I'm working with and I'm getting frustrated.[Jess .] So what do I need in this moment right now?[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] actually a good one that I lean on sometimes— it's video games.[Mike McGinnis] Because sometimes I'm sure you can attest to this.[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] if you're working on something,[Mike McGinnis] whether it's creatively or it's at work or something like that,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I don't know,[Mike McGinnis] doing your taxes,[Mike McGinnis] whatever.[Mike McGinnis] And you're like,[Mike McGinnis] man,[Mike McGinnis] all I'm seeing are these numbers in front of my face or whatever you're wearing.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I've done electrical work where I'm like wiring something.[Mike McGinnis] I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] why is this one thing just like defeating me?[Mike McGinnis] And if I can walk away from it and call it a day and sit for a[Mike McGinnis] little while and like play some sort of video game that makes me[Mike McGinnis] think about another thing that I'm enjoying thinking about.[Mike McGinnis] And be strategic or problem solve or get involved in a story or something like that,[Mike McGinnis] that will do the trick way more.[Mike McGinnis] It'll rewire the way I'm thinking about things rather than sitting[Mike McGinnis] or maybe even sometimes taking a walk and I'm still thinking about the problem.[Mike McGinnis] Walking and thinking about this thing that I was like dealing with.[Mike McGinnis] Distracting my mind with like a video game helps a lot for me.[Jess .] Hey,[Jess .] real quick,[Jess .] I just wanted to take a second to thank you for listening.[Jess .] If you're enjoying the show and want to help keep it going,[Jess .] you can now support The Underwire on Buy Me a Coffee.[Jess .] It's similar to Patreon.[Jess .] It's like a little tip jar where you can send a one-time $5 donation[Jess .] or join as a monthly member for a little extra support.[Jess .] No pressure.[Jess .] Just know that every bit helps,[Jess .] and I appreciate you so much.[Jess .] You can check it out at buymeacoffee.[Jess .] com/slash/ theunderwirepod.[Jess .] The link will be in the show notes.[Jess .] Now,[Jess .] back to the episode.[Jess .] I can totally understand how that makes sense.[Jess .] You're getting away from the thing that was irritating you or making you feel frustrated.[Jess .] And even though,[Jess .] like you said,[Jess .] going for walks is great,[Jess .] but sometimes you're going for that walk stewing.[Jess .] In that same energy that made you feel frustrated,[Jess .] and sometimes that's not helpful.[Jess .] And that's really great of you to be able to recognize that,[Jess .] you know,[Jess .] maybe it's better I just take a break and play video games and get[Jess .] my mind off of that so I can come back to it with a clearer frame of reference.[Mike McGinnis] Well,[Mike McGinnis] I also think like when you're trying to solve a problem and let's[Mike McGinnis] say like you're doing something that's like important to your life[Mike McGinnis] or to your like passion or your job and you're trying to solve a problem,[Mike McGinnis] you're like,[Mike McGinnis] well,[Mike McGinnis] this is very important to me.[Mike McGinnis] I think your brain is like asking for that.[Mike McGinnis] Like when you solve that problem and you're like,[Mike McGinnis] okay,[Mike McGinnis] done.[Mike McGinnis] You get this,[Mike McGinnis] like the dopamine rush where you're like,[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] you know?[Mike McGinnis] And I think like playing certain video games can trick your brain[Mike McGinnis] into thinking you're,[Mike McGinnis] you're cause you're solving different problems,[Mike McGinnis] you know?[Mike McGinnis] And you're,[Mike McGinnis] but,[Mike McGinnis] and your brain's like,[Mike McGinnis] good,[Mike McGinnis] we're solving problems.[Mike McGinnis] Here we,[Mike McGinnis] here we are.[Mike McGinnis] And it's like worked wonders for me where I'm like recording[Mike McGinnis] something and I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] why does it sound like this?[Mike McGinnis] And I'm spinning my wheels or I'm like working in Photoshop and I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] I cannot get this thing to happen.[Mike McGinnis] And I can be like,[Mike McGinnis] let me call a day,[Mike McGinnis] come back to it in the morning and like,[Mike McGinnis] I'll just relax.[Mike McGinnis] And I like strategy games,[Mike McGinnis] a lot of stuff like that.[Mike McGinnis] And you're sort of solving problems.[Mike McGinnis] And I think your brain is sitting there going like,[Mike McGinnis] okay,[Mike McGinnis] you're solving problems.[Mike McGinnis] That's what I was looking for.[Mike McGinnis] And then you come back and it's all good.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] you just got to get out,[Jess .] get out and get back in.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] just those dopamine receptors.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I think that's a great strategy and something that I use all the time is,[Jess .] let me focus on something else.[Jess .] And I like what you mentioned about the— Yeah,[Jess .] exactly.[Jess .] About the solving problems,[Jess .] but different problems.[Mike McGinnis] Yes.[Mike McGinnis] And they're like meant to be solved.[Mike McGinnis] Or sometimes you might,[Mike McGinnis] you might be working on something.[Mike McGinnis] You're like,[Mike McGinnis] there's no.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] exactly.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] Right.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Jess .] Get me to a Zelda dungeon right now.[Mike McGinnis] Yep.[Jess .] So,[Jess .] along with that,[Jess .] is there anyone specifically,[Jess .] like a human,[Jess .] who has made a big impact on your both entrepreneurial journey or music?[Jess .] Just a person that has made a big impact on you.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] and just a little sad because he semi-recently passed away,[Mike McGinnis] but Steve Pappone was huge for me,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] and his memory.[Mike McGinnis] Now,[Mike McGinnis] RIP,[Mike McGinnis] Steve.[Mike McGinnis] We love you.[Mike McGinnis] Even his memory still inspires me when it comes to that.[Mike McGinnis] Steve was someone who branched out on his own and started his own[Mike McGinnis] recording studio and built it up to be one of the best on the East[Mike McGinnis] Coast and one of the most successful.[Mike McGinnis] Eventually bought their own building.[Mike McGinnis] Steve,[Mike McGinnis] up until literally the week he passed away,[Mike McGinnis] he was someone who I could...[Mike McGinnis] He was always a phone call or a text message away if I needed[Mike McGinnis] business advice or advice on how to do things myself.[Mike McGinnis] He was always there and he was always encouraging me and he was[Mike McGinnis] always willing to teach me things.[Mike McGinnis] So Steve was huge for me.[Mike McGinnis] And all throughout my life,[Mike McGinnis] because I knew Steve,[Mike McGinnis] he actually,[Mike McGinnis] we went to the same high school,[Mike McGinnis] even though we weren't in high school together.[Mike McGinnis] So yeah,[Mike McGinnis] definitely Steve.[Jess .] I love that answer.[Mike McGinnis] I miss him every day.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] for good reason that that makes a lot of sense.[Jess .] And I'm sure that's really hard.[Jess .] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] but the impact that he left is very inspirational.[Mike McGinnis] So,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] that'll always be there.[Jess .] Yes,[Jess .] for sure.[Jess .] And along with Steve,[Jess .] you know,[Jess .] you also brought up that you went to high school together,[Jess .] but all of the stuff within the music scene.[Jess .] And this has been a common recurring thing within a lot of the episodes,[Jess .] talking about how music has been such an influential part of life in every way,[Jess .] in regards to the DIY ethics that come along with it.[Jess .] So a lot of the things that you mentioned Steve doing—those that[Jess .] inspired you— were able to,[Jess .] kind of,[Jess .] learn through him doing things himself within the music scene.[Jess .] So do you think that those experiences from the music world have[Jess .] then influenced how you've run your businesses?[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] definitely.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I'm sure you can relate,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] the scenes that we grew up on,[Mike McGinnis] like in hardcore and punk and metal and indie and,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] all those things.[Mike McGinnis] They're chock full of people who like.[Mike McGinnis] I've sort of had to fight uphill battles and,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I've had to like push back against like gatekeeping.[Mike McGinnis] And I think that just the DIY ethos goes hand in hand with those scenes.[Mike McGinnis] And that's what I came up on and I'm still involved in them.[Mike McGinnis] And yeah,[Mike McGinnis] it's probably why I gravitated to it in the first place.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] that's,[Mike McGinnis] and a lot of my peers,[Mike McGinnis] you included,[Mike McGinnis] are people who have taken those things and turned them into other things.[Mike McGinnis] And we still continue to.[Jess .] Really,[Jess .] there's something special about the resilience and adaptability that[Jess .] comes from being involved within the hardcore,[Jess .] metal,[Jess .] indie,[Jess .] whatever music scene when you're so involved in it.[Jess .] All of the life skills that you learn and don't realize that you're[Jess .] learning because it just seems,[Jess .] when you're involved with this at such a young age,[Jess .] it just all seems normal.[Jess .] And then you grow up and you realize that others don't have the same skill set as you.[Jess .] And you're just like,[Jess .] wait,[Jess .] but you could just do it yourself.[Jess .] And people are like,[Jess .] wait,[Jess .] what?[Jess .] You can do that?[Jess .] I'm like,[Jess .] yeah,[Jess .] you can do that.[Jess .] You can do anything.[Jess .] And I think that that's such an important skill to have that we[Jess .] don't realize that we are equipped with until later in life.[Mike McGinnis] You know,[Mike McGinnis] I could even like put it a step further.[Mike McGinnis] And like,[Mike McGinnis] it took me a while to realize that there are people who like,[Mike McGinnis] don't know how to travel,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] like I traveled a lot because of music.[Mike McGinnis] And then,[Mike McGinnis] as I got a little older,[Mike McGinnis] I started to like experience being around people who are like, 'Yeah,' but like,[Mike McGinnis] what do you do when you get there?[Mike McGinnis] You're like, 'Well,[Mike McGinnis] what do you mean?' Again,[Mike McGinnis] no shade.[Mike McGinnis] Look,[Mike McGinnis] if something's new to you,[Mike McGinnis] it's new to you.[Mike McGinnis] Like if you don't have the experience,[Mike McGinnis] you just don't have the experience.[Mike McGinnis] It's fine.[Mike McGinnis] But I just didn't know,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] it was one of those things where it came so naturally to me to be like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I know how to travel and I can do it in many different ways if necessary,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] and there are people that don't and is what it is.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] for sure.[Jess .] Something else I want to ask you is for anyone thinking about[Jess .] starting their own business,[Jess .] speaking of DIY,[Jess .] what is one piece of advice that you would want them to hear?[Mike McGinnis] We've sort of touched on a lot of it already,[Mike McGinnis] right?[Mike McGinnis] I think it's okay to take small steps,[Mike McGinnis] even if it feels like there are 100 steps and you're like, 'Man,[Mike McGinnis] I really want to get to 100.' And you've only taken two and you're like, 'Well,[Mike McGinnis] this is bullshit because I'm only two steps of a hundred.' This is[Mike McGinnis] never going to get there.[Mike McGinnis] It still will.[Mike McGinnis] And two steps are two steps.[Mike McGinnis] And every step is just as important as the last or the next.[Mike McGinnis] So don't minimize small steps and it's okay to take your time.[Mike McGinnis] Don't let perfection get in the way.[Mike McGinnis] I used to do that all the time.[Mike McGinnis] I'm not going to nail the quote.[Mike McGinnis] I can't remember who it is,[Mike McGinnis] but like, 'Perfection is the enemy of art,' you know,[Mike McGinnis] because it can be like.[Mike McGinnis] It's okay to want things to be the way you want,[Mike McGinnis] but I've seen so many people let perfection make things never happen.[Mike McGinnis] And that's a shame because nothing's perfect.[Mike McGinnis] So if you let perfection get in the way,[Mike McGinnis] it's not going to be perfect either way.[Mike McGinnis] So why not just do it?[Mike McGinnis] And I think also,[Mike McGinnis] like what we talked about earlier,[Mike McGinnis] where it's like,[Mike McGinnis] it's okay to like take advice and talk things out with friends and all,[Mike McGinnis] but know that sometimes advice can be people projecting and also know that.[Mike McGinnis] If you talk things out more than put things into action,[Mike McGinnis] you may be allowing your brain to be satisfied by talking it out rather than doing.[Mike McGinnis] And that thing may never come to fruition because you've already[Mike McGinnis] talked it out so many times.[Mike McGinnis] I guess that's about it.[Jess .] All of that was great advice.[Jess .] And the last thing you said about thinking about things instead of[Jess .] just actually doing them and planning them in your brain,[Jess .] that is so true.[Jess .] And that's a thing that people,[Jess .] I know myself included,[Jess .] us ADHD people like to do,[Jess .] the planning,[Jess .] because it gives you such a dopamine rush.[Jess .] But the execution is something that we really struggle with because[Jess .] that requires taking action,[Jess .] which sometimes is really scary because we want things to be perfect[Jess .] because we don't want to be criticized and we are.[Jess .] scared,[Jess .] but guess what?[Jess .] We can be scared and do things anyway.[Jess .] And that is a lesson that we're all learning.[Jess .] You just have to do it.[Mike McGinnis] And again,[Mike McGinnis] I experienced that sometimes too,[Mike McGinnis] but the thing that's helped me is being okay with the small steps[Mike McGinnis] and knowing that those small steps are something that...[Mike McGinnis] If you're like,[Mike McGinnis] I see the end point,[Mike McGinnis] the end point is awesome.[Mike McGinnis] But no one just goes,[Mike McGinnis] well,[Mike McGinnis] I want to act on Broadway.[Mike McGinnis] And then the next day they're on Broadway.[Mike McGinnis] It just doesn't happen.[Mike McGinnis] Some people get more lucky than others,[Mike McGinnis] of course.[Mike McGinnis] And some people have a leg up and some people have ins and other people don't.[Mike McGinnis] All that stuff.[Mike McGinnis] But it takes,[Mike McGinnis] I think,[Mike McGinnis] just doing and making sure you're not tricking your brain into[Mike McGinnis] thinking that it's already done it because you've talked about it or[Mike McGinnis] thought about it so much.[Mike McGinnis] Because I think a lot of times your brain can go, 'Ah,[Mike McGinnis] we've already done this.'.[Jess .] Especially if you have a really creative brain,[Jess .] you're already thinking about all the different scenarios and ways that it panned out.[Jess .] And in your brain,[Jess .] you're just like, 'Oh my gosh,[Jess .] this is fantastic.' So you get the dopamine that you would have[Jess .] gotten if you actually did it.[Mike McGinnis] I think so.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] And I think,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] talking it out with people can do that.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] cause you're verbalizing it.[Mike McGinnis] And again,[Mike McGinnis] there's nothing wrong with like,[Mike McGinnis] if someone's like,[Mike McGinnis] I actually don't have this as a big goal.[Mike McGinnis] I just kind of want to like brainstorm about it.[Mike McGinnis] Like that's fine.[Mike McGinnis] But if someone's like,[Mike McGinnis] I really want to get this done.[Mike McGinnis] And then they allow them talking it out.[Mike McGinnis] to get in the way of really getting it done.[Mike McGinnis] Like it's something to just be aware of anyway.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] And I mean,[Jess .] there's nothing wrong with imagining or talking out these big goals,[Jess .] right?[Jess .] But then afterwards,[Jess .] you need to ask the question,[Jess .] well,[Jess .] what is the small action that I'm going to take today?[Jess .] What is that going to be to get me closer to that goal?[Jess .] And that is the scary thing,[Jess .] that little tiny action.[Jess .] But it's very important to then dream the big dreams.[Jess .] I'm there.[Jess .] I'm dreaming the big dreams.[Jess .] I'm talking about my big dreams.[Jess .] But then after that,[Jess .] you got to have that serious conversation with yourself.[Jess .] What's this action,[Jess .] this very tiny,[Jess .] small action that I can take today to get me there?[Jess .] Because without any action,[Jess .] your ass ain't getting anywhere.[Mike McGinnis] And don't be disappointed that the thing that,[Mike McGinnis] if you were sitting with your friends or if you're just thinking about it,[Mike McGinnis] and you have this like end goal,[Mike McGinnis] that seems like fantastic.[Mike McGinnis] And then you're like,[Mike McGinnis] okay,[Mike McGinnis] it's time to do this small step.[Mike McGinnis] A small step is not going to be that big,[Mike McGinnis] fantastic thing that you're dreaming about.[Mike McGinnis] So don't let that be disappointing because you're never just going[Mike McGinnis] to go, 'boom,' the big thing.[Mike McGinnis] It's going to be all those small actions.[Mike McGinnis] And then suddenly you're just going to go, 'oh,[Mike McGinnis] wait,[Mike McGinnis] I'm here now?' You know,[Mike McGinnis] you've made albums.[Mike McGinnis] That's how albums are.[Mike McGinnis] If you were just like, 'I want to make an album and I'm going to[Mike McGinnis] make it tomorrow,' it probably would not be a good record.[Jess .] It would not be a good record.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] That's a fact.[Mike McGinnis] And it's just little things,[Mike McGinnis] little bit at a time.[Mike McGinnis] And then eventually you go, 'oh,[Mike McGinnis] wait.[Mike McGinnis] I'm in the studio tracking right now.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] crazy.' Cause I remember when I was just doing that stupid little first thing,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] a year and a half ago or so,[Mike McGinnis] you know what I mean?[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] yeah.[Mike McGinnis] So I just think that not being disappointed and we're letting like[Mike McGinnis] things defeat you because they're like,[Mike McGinnis] they seem minuscule compared to the final thing you have in your head.[Jess .] That's really important.[Jess .] Got to let it cook.[Jess .] It's great advice.[Jess .] It's great advice.[Jess .] All great stuff.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] thank you.[Jess .] We're going to now transition to the fun questions.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] nice.[Jess .] All right,[Jess .] so now the first question is a question that I ask to every single person,[Jess .] and that is,[Jess .] who is one person you are grateful for and why?[Mike McGinnis] It's funny.[Mike McGinnis] This is very similar to talking about Steve Beponi.[Mike McGinnis] I guess if I had to narrow it down,[Mike McGinnis] it's such a cliche answer about my dad.[Mike McGinnis] I was born to a very old family,[Mike McGinnis] and a lot of them are just gone.[Mike McGinnis] So my dad,[Mike McGinnis] he's the only connection I have left to that world.[Mike McGinnis] I'm grateful he's still with us and that he's someone I can talk to[Mike McGinnis] and hang out with and have a relationship still as he and I are both getting older.[Jess .] I think that's a great answer.[Jess .] I don't think that's a cliche answer.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I would hope a lot of people would say that.[Mike McGinnis] My dad,[Mike McGinnis] my mom.[Mike McGinnis] My dad.[Mike McGinnis] That's great.[Jess .] Shout out to Mr.[Jess .] McGinnis.[Jess .] Yes.[Jess .] Fantastic.[Jess .] Okay.[Jess .] The next question,[Jess .] if it didn't cost anything,[Jess .] what would be one adulting task from your personal life that you[Jess .] would delegate so you wouldn't have to even think about doing it anymore?[Mike McGinnis] How much time you get?[Jess .] You can only name one.[Mike McGinnis] Okay.[Mike McGinnis] Grocery shopping.[Jess .] That would probably be mine too.[Mike McGinnis] I love cooking.[Mike McGinnis] So sometimes it is nice to go and handpick the things I'm cooking.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] I guess that's all right.[Mike McGinnis] But just the social experience of grocery shopping.[Mike McGinnis] I'm also someone who I drive a lot.[Mike McGinnis] And then you get into the grocery store and you're like, 'These are[Mike McGinnis] the people I'm on the road with,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] and you're still getting cut off.' And I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] you cut me off at the light.[Mike McGinnis] Now you're cutting me off with your cart.[Mike McGinnis] Like all that stuff.[Mike McGinnis] I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] yeah.[Jess .] People reaching in front of you and you're just standing there[Jess .] saying, 'Excuse me,' terrible social etiquette.[Jess .] How dare you?[Jess .] Rude.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] I just like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] it just drains me a little bit.[Mike McGinnis] It would be nice to,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] and I don't,[Mike McGinnis] I don't mean like getting like grocery delivery or anything.[Mike McGinnis] It would be nice to be like, 'I still want the food I'm going to[Mike McGinnis] cook,' but it's just like there already.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I understand.[Jess .] I don't like to go to the grocery store.[Jess .] I actually like going to the grocery store,[Jess .] but it's very overstimulating and I get burdened by analysis[Jess .] paralysis and anxiety and everything is so expensive.[Jess .] So there's that added thing going on in your head.[Jess .] It's just too much.[Jess .] I would much rather somebody else just do it.[Jess .] And then honestly,[Jess .] I love cooking,[Jess .] but it just,[Jess .] that's another thing that I'm just like,[Jess .] I just want somebody to put food in front of my face.[Mike McGinnis] I find cooking very therapeutic and getting the food to cook is part of it.[Mike McGinnis] And sometimes that will like hurt how therapeutic the cooking is.[Mike McGinnis] So I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] yeah.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] because it takes away your brain points.[Jess .] So I think that's a great answer.[Jess .] The next question is also food-related.[Jess .] When you eat a meal,[Jess .] do you eat your favorite thing first or do you save it for last?[Jess .] So,[Jess .] if your meal has multiple different foods included,[Jess .] do you eat your favorite thing first or do you eat it last?[Mike McGinnis] Um,[Mike McGinnis] well,[Mike McGinnis] okay.[Mike McGinnis] So I'm kind of a,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] a little bit,[Mike McGinnis] cause when things are put on a plate together,[Mike McGinnis] they're like meant to go together.[Mike McGinnis] So I kind of eat all of it semi-evenly.[Mike McGinnis] Uh,[Mike McGinnis] but to not cop out on the answer,[Mike McGinnis] like gun to my head,[Mike McGinnis] what's my last bite?[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] all right,[Mike McGinnis] I have three equal bites left.[Mike McGinnis] I'm definitely going to like,[Mike McGinnis] if I have mashed potatoes and asparagus and a filet mignon,[Mike McGinnis] I'm.[Mike McGinnis] Saving that last bite of flavor.[Mike McGinnis] That's the last thing I mean.[Jess .] Okay.[Jess .] All right.[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] I'm going to eat the star.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] But I like to just— I'm not like,[Mike McGinnis] let me eat all my fries and then my burger,[Mike McGinnis] like burger.[Mike McGinnis] I'm going to have like some of the burgers,[Mike McGinnis] some of the fries,[Mike McGinnis] some of the.[Jess .] Right.[Jess .] But the last bite,[Jess .] the last bite.[Mike McGinnis] The last bite,[Mike McGinnis] it's definitely going to be the burger.[Mike McGinnis] Okay.[Mike McGinnis] Going to be the star of the show.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] Always.[Mike McGinnis] Same.[Jess .] All right.[Jess .] Okay.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Jess .] All right.[Jess .] Cool.[Jess .] Okay.[Jess .] Another food question.[Jess .] I don't know.[Jess .] This is just all what came to my mind at the time.[Jess .] Okay.[Jess .] Good.[Mike McGinnis] I love food.[Jess .] What is not to like about food?[Jess .] My goodness,[Jess .] I'm going to eat dinner after this.[Jess .] Oh man,[Jess .] I'm getting hungry.[Jess .] All right.[Jess .] So what is one food that you can remember experiencing for the first[Jess .] time and describe that experience?[Mike McGinnis] It's funny because the place still exists.[Mike McGinnis] First time I moved to Philly,[Mike McGinnis] I was,[Mike McGinnis] I think I was 19 years old.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] it was 20-ish years ago now.[Mike McGinnis] I don't know exactly when it was.[Mike McGinnis] I know I wasn't 21 yet.[Mike McGinnis] And I moved to West Philly,[Mike McGinnis] to 45th and Walnut.[Mike McGinnis] And the place is still there,[Mike McGinnis] which is really funny because I was looking at some of the notes for[Mike McGinnis] this podcast and I thought about this answer.[Mike McGinnis] And then I looked at Instagram and the place that I went and got this food,[Mike McGinnis] it was like in my Instagram feed.[Mike McGinnis] Yo.[Mike McGinnis] I know.[Mike McGinnis] And I'm just like,[Mike McGinnis] oh man.[Mike McGinnis] When that shit happens.[Jess .] I think,[Jess .] honestly,[Jess .] that happens to everybody.[Jess .] And when it does,[Jess .] it's like,[Jess .] wait,[Jess .] hold on.[Jess .] First of all,[Jess .] it's gaslighting you because you're thinking in your head,[Jess .] did I say something out loud to somebody?[Mike McGinnis] I know,[Mike McGinnis] and I definitely did not.[Mike McGinnis] I was literally thinking,[Mike McGinnis] and I'm like,[Mike McGinnis] this is weird.[Mike McGinnis] So anyway.[Mike McGinnis] Scary.[Mike McGinnis] It was Ethiopian food at a place called Abyssinia that I lived near.[Mike McGinnis] And they're still around.[Mike McGinnis] Amazing upstairs bar.[Mike McGinnis] I went and revisited it kind of recently.[Mike McGinnis] It's very like speakeasy vibes,[Mike McGinnis] but they have Ethiopian food on the first floor.[Mike McGinnis] And when I first moved to West Philly,[Mike McGinnis] again,[Mike McGinnis] I was,[Mike McGinnis] I don't know,[Mike McGinnis] 19,[Mike McGinnis] 20,[Mike McGinnis] something like that.[Mike McGinnis] Never had Ethiopian food before.[Mike McGinnis] And someone was like, 'Let me introduce you to it.' And they just[Mike McGinnis] picked some random stuff.[Mike McGinnis] And I think they just completely failed on what my tastes were.[Mike McGinnis] And I was like, 'This is...[Mike McGinnis] it was...[Mike McGinnis] I hated it.' And I was like, 'I cannot believe,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] why do you eat this?' And then,[Mike McGinnis] as the years went on,[Mike McGinnis] I was like.[Mike McGinnis] I think that was just a weird experience.[Mike McGinnis] And it was,[Mike McGinnis] I actually love Ethiopian food now.[Mike McGinnis] So yeah.[Mike McGinnis] That's so funny.[Mike McGinnis] That was that experience.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Jess .] Wow.[Jess .] So you remember the experience because you hated it.[Mike McGinnis] I did.[Mike McGinnis] Yes.[Mike McGinnis] Although I loved hanging out there and I'm very happy that it still exists.[Mike McGinnis] And now I love Ethiopia.[Jess .] And now your palate has changed.[Mike McGinnis] I think that he just failed on the food items.[Jess .] Okay.[Jess .] Oh,[Jess .] okay.[Jess .] Gotcha.[Jess .] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] Like,[Mike McGinnis] I think that there were items that I would have been like,[Mike McGinnis] this is good.[Mike McGinnis] And he was just like,[Mike McGinnis] nah,[Mike McGinnis] you need this,[Mike McGinnis] this,[Mike McGinnis] and this.[Mike McGinnis] And it was just...[Mike McGinnis] It was the wrong choices for a 19-year-old who had never had[Mike McGinnis] Ethiopian food before.[Jess .] I'm glad that you didn't let it deter you from going back.[Jess .] So,[Jess .] cool.[Jess .] Next question.[Jess .] Okay,[Jess .] now we're moving on from food to grade school.[Jess .] Describe a super embarrassing moment you had in grade school.[Mike McGinnis] Well,[Mike McGinnis] this one also involves Ethiopian food.[Mike McGinnis] I'm just kidding.[Jess .] I was going to say,[Jess .] that would be such a wild coincidence.[Mike McGinnis] I'm sorry.[Mike McGinnis] Well,[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] there's so many,[Mike McGinnis] right?[Mike McGinnis] One that I immediately think of when people ask this is the first[Mike McGinnis] time I beat up my bully.[Mike McGinnis] He bullied multiple kids.[Mike McGinnis] It was in like...[Mike McGinnis] I don't remember exactly,[Mike McGinnis] like third,[Mike McGinnis] maybe fourth grade,[Mike McGinnis] something like that.[Mike McGinnis] And it was like a rainy day.[Mike McGinnis] And he was throwing kids on the ground.[Mike McGinnis] He was real big.[Mike McGinnis] Throwing kids on the ground because we had recess.[Mike McGinnis] It was inside.[Mike McGinnis] And everyone had to filter back into the classroom.[Mike McGinnis] The teacher would always be late.[Mike McGinnis] So there was no teacher in the room.[Mike McGinnis] And he just— everyone that was coming in,[Mike McGinnis] he was grabbing them and just like violently like throwing them like[Mike McGinnis] against the wall or a desk.[Mike McGinnis] And he had been bullying me already.[Mike McGinnis] I never stood up to him.[Mike McGinnis] And this was like first time I did.[Mike McGinnis] And I beat him up.[Mike McGinnis] And he's a lot bigger than me.[Mike McGinnis] I punched him in the face and he was surprised I punched him.[Mike McGinnis] And then I just beat the hell out of him.[Mike McGinnis] Oh my God.[Mike McGinnis] And,[Mike McGinnis] uh,[Mike McGinnis] but I never did that before.[Mike McGinnis] And,[Mike McGinnis] um,[Mike McGinnis] I immediately in front of the entire class,[Mike McGinnis] like I beat him up and he started crying and I just started crying too.[Mike McGinnis] Like in front of the whole class,[Mike McGinnis] like we just bawled my eyes out.[Jess .] Cause you're probably like, 'Oh shit,[Jess .] what did I just do?' I'm going to get in trouble now.[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] I don't even— I think I just went into shock or something.[Mike McGinnis] Cause I just like beat the hell out of him.[Mike McGinnis] And then I was like, 'I love it now.' Oh my God.[Jess .] That's amazing.[Mike McGinnis] But I'm sure I went home that night,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] being like, 'Oh no,[Mike McGinnis] you know?'.[Jess .] Oh,[Jess .] man.[Jess .] Did you get in some serious trouble for that?[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] I got in trouble,[Mike McGinnis] but it was,[Mike McGinnis] you know.[Mike McGinnis] I remember,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] my parents and the teachers being like, 'Oh,[Mike McGinnis] so.' He punched the guy that bullies people.[Mike McGinnis] That other kid deserved it.[Jess .] Fuck that kid.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I mean,[Mike McGinnis] they have to do something.[Mike McGinnis] I don't remember what,[Mike McGinnis] but I remember it wasn't a whole lot.[Jess .] You have to take matters into your own hands,[Jess .] although we don't condone violence on this podcast.[Jess .] But for that,[Jess .] we'll make an exception.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] It worked.[Jess .] Sorry.[Jess .] Moving on to the next question,[Jess .] also that has to do with your childhood.[Jess .] What was your favorite book as a kid?[Jess .] And it doesn't have to be a book that you actually read.[Jess .] It could be a book that was read to you,[Jess .] just a book that you are fond of within your childhood.[Mike McGinnis] I kind of like can't remember what I was reading like before middle school,[Mike McGinnis] but I grew up in my house with an old,[Mike McGinnis] like at this point,[Mike McGinnis] it's really old.[Mike McGinnis] It was a super like original version of The Hobbit in hardcover that[Mike McGinnis] my aunt gifted my dad when he was like a teenager.[Mike McGinnis] And my dad's like 75 years old now.[Mike McGinnis] So very old book.[Mike McGinnis] And it was always on the bookshelf.[Mike McGinnis] And I like read it.[Mike McGinnis] All the time when I was a little kid,[Mike McGinnis] just in like pieces,[Mike McGinnis] because I was really young.[Mike McGinnis] So,[Mike McGinnis] that's got to be the answer.[Mike McGinnis] I was like trying—[pause]—I know.[Mike McGinnis] As I got a little bit older,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I read the Goosebumps series,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] and I liked it when I was that age.[Mike McGinnis] Um,[Mike McGinnis] and I know,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] when we were assigned to catch her in the rye in like eighth grade or whatever,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] I definitely was one of those,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] angsty preteens,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] yeah,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] all these phonies.[Mike McGinnis] I get it,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] like.[Mike McGinnis] Now I find it funny,[Mike McGinnis] but I liked it at the time.[Mike McGinnis] I remember we went on vacation to my aunt and uncle's house in Florida.[Mike McGinnis] They had a lot of Stephen King books.[Mike McGinnis] I read The Stand when we were on this vacation from front to back.[Mike McGinnis] I was way too young to have read that book,[Mike McGinnis] but I loved it.[Mike McGinnis] I'd love,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] I was like an early Stephen King and horror fan.[Mike McGinnis] So,[Mike McGinnis] but yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I think the Hobbit was like,[Mike McGinnis] cause it was always there on the bookshelf.[Mike McGinnis] And as I got older,[Mike McGinnis] I kind of like— it was one of those things that I would always go[Mike McGinnis] back to and read more and more and more of as I got older.[Jess .] I've never read The Hobbit.[Jess .] I've never even watched the movies.[Mike McGinnis] The movie sticks.[Mike McGinnis] Oh.[Mike McGinnis] The Hobbit movie.[Mike McGinnis] I like Lord of the Rings.[Mike McGinnis] The books are,[Mike McGinnis] they're better.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] maybe I'll give them a chance at one point,[Jess .] but that's a lot of time that I need to invest in those.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah,[Mike McGinnis] they're hefty.[Mike McGinnis] Yeah.[Mike McGinnis] The Hobbit is a big book.[Jess .] Hefty,[Jess .] hefty,[Jess .] like the trash bags.[Jess .] I'm curious,[Jess .] what video game as a child did you rent the most?[Mike McGinnis] Oh,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] Final Fantasy IV.[Mike McGinnis] Okay.[Mike McGinnis] Because it's a role-playing game and you can't sit there and beat it in three hours.[Mike McGinnis] And I would eventually,[Mike McGinnis] I think somebody in my family got it for me as a Christmas present.[Mike McGinnis] But we didn't have a whole lot of money growing up.[Mike McGinnis] So,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] my dad,[Mike McGinnis] like every couple weeks would be like, 'I'm going to go rent a movie from,[Mike McGinnis] there's a place called Video Van.' And there was another,[Mike McGinnis] this is one of my,[Mike McGinnis] some of my favorite childhood memories are going to the video rental stores.[Mike McGinnis] Renting movies and video games.[Mike McGinnis] It was so cool going in there and talking to other kids about that stuff.[Mike McGinnis] Final Fantasy IV,[Mike McGinnis] I was really young playing that game.[Mike McGinnis] I didn't exactly know how the mechanics worked and everything.[Mike McGinnis] We would always rent it,[Mike McGinnis] and there were only four save spots on it.[Mike McGinnis] I would always be like, 'Please let my save game still be there.'[Mike McGinnis] And a couple of times it wasn't,[Mike McGinnis] and I had to restart,[Mike McGinnis] but I loved it so much.[Mike McGinnis] Oh yeah.[Mike McGinnis] I eventually beat that rental though.[Mike McGinnis] So yeah,[Mike McGinnis] I remember I would always look at the other saves on it and they[Mike McGinnis] were like completed with all the developed characters and everything.[Mike McGinnis] I'd be like, 'Wow.' Level 48,[Mike McGinnis] oh my god,[Mike McGinnis] I'm gonna get there,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] but it had to be that because it was—I gotta,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] I had to repeat Reddit otherwise,[Mike McGinnis] like,[Mike McGinnis] Mario 3,[Mike McGinnis] you know,[Mike McGinnis] because that took a little time to beat.[Mike McGinnis] I remember I was renting it over the course of a summer.[Mike McGinnis] I had a couple cousins who were hanging out at my house at the time,[Mike McGinnis] who were just relentlessly giving me shit about trying to beat that[Mike McGinnis] video game rather than coming outside to play with them.[Mike McGinnis] And I was like,[Mike McGinnis] it's a riddle.[Mike McGinnis] I got to get through it.[Jess .] Determination.[Jess .] That's actually what built up your resilience.[Jess .] We got to go back,[Jess .] restart this episode,[Jess .] and just talk about how Super Mario Brothers 3 and Final Fantasy—[Jess .] running these games— have really built up the core of your strong[Jess .] will and determination.[Mike McGinnis] Gotta bring those video rental stores back.[Mike McGinnis] You only had those for 36 hours.[Mike McGinnis] Hurry up.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] with that being said,[Jess .] this has been amazing.[Jess .] I loved everything that you had to say.[Jess .] And I think that a lot of things that you said were great advice,[Jess .] honestly,[Jess .] great insights,[Jess .] and can be relatable to many,[Jess .] many people— entrepreneurs or not,[Jess .] just general life advice.[Jess .] I think it's really important.[Jess .] Where can anyone listening find you or your band,[Jess .] or Knife Hits,[Jess .] or Heavy Claw?[Jess .] All of your endeavors.[Mike McGinnis] It's really all— just go to Knife Hits Records.[Mike McGinnis] com,[Mike McGinnis] like pretty much the labels right there.[Mike McGinnis] My band is directly attached to it.[Mike McGinnis] And then my self-employment is Heavy Claw Moving and Shipping.[Mike McGinnis] And that's just Heavy Claw.[Mike McGinnis] com.[Jess .] And he gets five stars from me.[Jess .] Mike has been a great help in me trying to move my toy collection safely and soundly.[Mike McGinnis] Thank you.[Jess .] And I give him 10 out of 5 stars.[Jess .] So if you need somebody for your moving needs and you're in the tri-state-ish area,[Jess .] you should...[Jess .] You should definitely hit him up.[Jess .] He'll come get your stuff in a van.[Mike McGinnis] I definitely will.[Jess .] With windows.[Mike McGinnis] Yes,[Mike McGinnis] full windows all around.[Jess .] It's got windows,[Jess .] so it's not a creepy van.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] thanks,[Jess .] Mike.[Jess .] I appreciate you doing this.[Mike McGinnis] Thank you,[Mike McGinnis] Jess.[Jess .] Okay,[Jess .] well,[Jess .] that's the end of the episode.[Jess .] All right,[Jess .] folks,[Jess .] that just about wraps up another episode of The Underwire.[Jess .] A huge thank you to Mike McGinnis for hanging out with me today and[Jess .] sharing what it really looks like to carve your own path without a blueprint,[Jess .] without all the answers,[Jess .] but with a whole lot of heart,[Jess .] hustle,[Jess .] and DIY grit.[Jess .] I hope this conversation reminded you that there's no one right way[Jess .] to build something that actually matters.[Jess .] Whether you're starting a business,[Jess .] chasing a creative project,[Jess .] or just trying to figure out whatever your next step may be,[Jess .] what you're doing counts.[Jess .] Every seed you plant,[Jess .] every imperfect action,[Jess .] it all adds up and it all matters.[Jess .] If this episode gave you something to think about,[Jess .] made you laugh,[Jess .] or just helped you feel a little bit more seen in your process,[Jess .] it would mean so much if you could share it with a friend,[Jess .] leave a five-star rating,[Jess .] or write a quick review.[Jess .] That's how I'm best able to reach more listeners who might need to[Jess .] hear these stories too.[Jess .] If you enjoy these episodes and would like to help keep the show running,[Jess .] consider supporting by buying me a coffee or becoming a monthly[Jess .] member at buymeacoffee.[Jess .] com/slash/ theunderwirepod.[Jess .] Your support means the world and lets me keep creating the episodes[Jess .] that lift people up when they need it most.[Jess .] You can also follow The Underwire Pod on Instagram at[Jess .] theunderwireofficial.[Jess .] If you want,[Jess .] shoot me a DM because I'd love to hear your takeaways,[Jess .] personal stories,[Jess .] or any questions or topics you'd want me to cover in future episodes.[Jess .] Thank you so much for tuning in and being a part of this ride.[Jess .] Until next time,[Jess .] just keep on going.[Jess .] Keep on planting those little seeds,[Jess .] taking that messy action.[Jess .] And until then,[Jess .] I'll catch you on the next episode.