The PharmaBrands Podcast

Dr. Chika Oriuwa on Everything from Slam Poetry to Neuroscience.

• Propeller Events • Season 4 • Episode 3

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On this episode of The PharmaBrands Podcast, Neil sits down with a Doctor, an author, a keynote speaker, a former competitive slam poet, a mother of two with her third on the way, a TIME magazine nominee for next generation leaders, a MacLean's Power 50, and the inspiration for Matel's Role Model Barbie. No, this isn't a multi-guest episode, this is all the fascinating world of Dr. Chika Oriuwa. 

For more on Dr, Oriuwa's book, Unlike the Rest: A Doctors Story, click here. 

This episode was made possible through the support of Changemakers, find out more at: thechangemakers.com. 

The PharmaBrands podcast is hosted by Neil Follett and Produced by Chess Originals.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the Pharma Brands Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Follett, and you've made a wise decision tuning into this episode. Okay, I'm biased and I think you've made a wise decision every time you give the show a listen. But today's a little different. Today's guest, Toronto-based Dr. Chica Uriua, is unique even amongst our unique guests. She is a true multi-hyphen, a doctor, an author, a sought-after keynote speaker, a former competitive slam poet, a Time magazine nomination for Next Generational Leaders, a McLean's magazine Power 50, and the inspiration for the Mattel role model Barbie. Oh, she's also a mom of two, with a third on the way, so clearly she had all the time in the world to sit down with me and record this show. This show was actually made possible by the support of our partner Changemakers. And here is my very far-reaching conversation with Dr. Chica Oryua. Thank you, Dr. Oryua, for joining us. I really appreciate your time and appreciate that you are working us into a very, very busy schedule. So thank you. Yes, of course. Thank you. You are very much a multi-hyphenate. Where would you like to start this conversation?

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Um, oh my gosh, there's so many different entrance points. I know. That's why I handed it over to you. Oh my gosh. Let's see. Um I guess maybe we can talk about my life as a writer. Let's do that. Because there's so much there to explore, like my life as a poet, but also as an author. There's just so much there.

SPEAKER_01:

I was reading your book and I was only a few pages into your book when I made a note to myself saying, Did she always want to write? Because your book is phenomenally well written. It is very easy to read and at the same time very, very moving. And then you get to the part in the book where you also were a competitive slam poet, and there's a whole world over there. So let's do that. Let's start with your life as a writer, uh, which obviously began before your publisher said yes to your first book.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I would say my life as a writer truly began from my earliest memories of life in general. So I started using writing as a means of self-expression, as a means of processing the world from a very young age. So I started writing poetry, my goodness, when I was maybe like five or six. And it's interesting because most people will say, like, well, that doesn't, that sounds like almost too good to be true or like unbelievable. But it's it's because writing poetry is actually the most organic way for me to write. So a lot of people will even remark, even when they read my book, that even though it's prose, it sounds very poetic.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And that that is subconscious for me. Like it is literally just how like I communicate organically. It's how my mind structures sentences and processes things. And even the way that I like interpret and make sense of a lot of my medical stuff, it really is filtered through a poetic lens, as wild as that sounds. And so when I started to write as a very young girl, I was just writing, not really knowing what exactly it was. And then I brought it to my teacher. I remember bringing it to my elementary school teacher and submitting it for like a writing assignment or just showing them my work and them saying, like, this is this is really beautiful poetry. Like you're writing a lot of poetry, you're using a lot of rhymes, you're using a lot of like metaphors. And I was like, Oh, okay, like that's great. And then they started to submit my poems and my short stories um into writing competitions, like without my knowledge. And then they would just tell me, like, oh, you did so well, you won this writing thing. I just submitted this because you've done like this is so beautifully written. So I knew from an early age that writing was very sacred for me. But I think it took me probably a few years after I started writing to realize that writing is, even though it is an independent endeavor, it really is a collective experience. I found the most beauty when I was able to give my art to the world and have it consumed.

SPEAKER_01:

In those early days, when your teacher came to you and said, Hey, you won this competition that you didn't even know you submitted to, was that a good thing? Did you feel like, hold on a sec? Like my writing is a bit more private. Did it feel okay to have that writing out in the world? It sounds like eventually, obviously, that was part of a gift that you wanted to share. But what was like that in the in the early days?

SPEAKER_02:

I loved it.

SPEAKER_01:

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think when I really started to understand the impact of my words on others, that for me was a life-changing experience. And I would say actually the first time that I truly grappled with that was shortly after my grandmother's passing, my maternal grandmother's passing, which I spoke about in my book. Um, and my mother was just overcome with grief. She was so close to her mom. And I am so close to my mom that I was devastated just to see her in that state. But I also didn't know how to console her as a 10-year-old girl. And so I wrote my mother a poem from the vantage point of my grandmother in heaven trying to like provide comfort and reassurance. And, you know, it was it was the best that my 10-year-old mind could conceptualize at the time. And I gave it to my mom. And it was the first time that I had seen her smile or show any kind of happiness in in the depths of her grief and and and of her sadness. And I think that for me is a moment that I still carry now, you know, 22 years later. And that was the first time that it really just struck me the gravity of words, the importance of words, and how you can use it to heal. And we can unpack this a bit later, but I think that for me really laid the groundwork for not only my work as a poet, as a writer, but also as a doctor in the future.

SPEAKER_01:

It sounds like with that story of your mom, you realized in that moment, and maybe you had realized before, the soothing power that your poetry can have when you think about those early acts of creating. And I know we're talking about going back to you as like a little kid, but what do you feel was the genesis of your desire to pick up a pen? Or was it a whole bunch of different things?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I wonder. I that's a really great question because it probably was just that I had so many thoughts in my mind. And that and that for me, and I I think this is even true to me to this day. Sometimes I'll just have an entire stanza fully formed in my mind. And it almost feels as though I am a conduit and less of a of the creator of that. I I feel like I'm struggling to articulate this, but I will literally wake up sometimes and I will have like two or three lines already formed. And it's like, I have to write this down or it's gonna be gone. And I think that's what I must have felt as a child was just the intensity, just being compelled to get out whatever was in my mind that felt like it was formed, that felt like it was coming through, and I needed to put it down on paper. And that's something that still rings true to me. And I have to kind of confront that all the time, this feeling of like, I feel like there's a poem here. That happens to me like once or twice a week. And of like, I will literally be in the hospital and something would have just happened with a patient, or I'm processing a difficult situation, and I'll just start creating stanzas in my mind and I'll be like, I don't have time for this. I don't have time to write this down. But I have historically just been like, let me take a second to journal and jot down these thoughts.

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like in some of these conversations, I host another podcast that's about business innovation and having these conversations with startup founders who become quite successful. I always have these moments of the scene in the movie, right? The scene in the movie where you have the big idea. And I feel like there's a scene in the movie about you when you're in the hospital and you know the poetry starts coming on the screen or the poetry starts coming in a voiceover. Um, it feels like those things are so intimately connected for you. Oh, it really, it it absolutely is.

SPEAKER_02:

And I do credit so much of my ability to be an artist to my ability to be a compassionate doctor. Like it's just so intricately linked.

SPEAKER_01:

So talk about that a little bit. How how are those things as intimately connected um as they are for you?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I always say that in order to write poetry at a baseline, you need to be able to have an unflinching examination of the world. You must be able to investigate some of the most heartbreaking, at times depraved, at times just like gut gut-wrenching experiences there are to life. And that's often, you know, we we hear about the sad poets, the tortured poets, but it's because poets don't look away from these things. And a lot of the poetry I've written has been kind of sad poetry or hard poetry or or gut-wrenching poetry, but it's because that's how I was able to process some of the difficult things in my life. And that's very true when it comes to other artists that are in the you know, poetry/slash slam poetry scene, you'll see a lot of beauty, but you'll also see a lot of pain. And I think that when it comes to being a doctor, the same is so true, especially in my specialty of psychiatry, that you need to be able to have that unflinching examination of someone else's life. People will come to you with some of the most devastating stories that are more unbelievable than fiction, like things you could never even imagine in a movie or in a story. That's what we have to hear and confront every day. And part of our job is to be able to hold that and not fall apart ourselves and find a way to help these patients navigate the muck and the mire of what it is that they're experiencing, but also doing so in a means or through a means of compassion. And what I find that poetry helps me with the most is being able to communicate because poetry is transcendent by nature. And so being able to get through to someone who is in the depths of suffering, truly, especially in psychiatry, that requires a certain transcendence as a doctor.

SPEAKER_01:

And I have to imagine that there is a need for you to process all of that. There is a how do I be present and how do I bear witness and have that unflinching examination and investigate this? But in doing so, you know, some of their pain is naturally like you just naturally metabolize some of that, I imagine. Oh, yeah. And then the poetry is likely a way to evacuate that and and you know, with a degree of grace, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. I could not have put it more eloquently myself. To be quite honest, that's that's that's the exact experience that I've had. Um and I always recognize that when I am struggling the most uh in residency or in life in general, is when I feel the least connected to my art. And it's for that exact reason. Uh, and using, you know, the the pathophysiologic parallel of if you if you don't metize, if you don't metabolize something properly, and then you have the buildup of the toxins and then you become sick, right? And for me, that's very much the truth, especially for through a mental health lens, that I do, I do often get exposed every day to stories that are so heavy, experiences that are so heavy. And it's not easy, you know, working in a psychiatric emergency department. It's also not easy working um on an on an inpatient unit, which um I'm currently working on. Uh, and it's not easy working in in a psychiatric intensive care unit and the experiences that you you have there. And so I find and and have found, especially in the last few months, that I've been on this service, that the least the less connected I am to my art and my writing, and I have not had a lot of time for that, uh, then the more that it just kind of like accumulates and I need to find ways to process it. And for me, talking about it is great, but it's not as cathartic as writing about it. And so yeah, that's an important insight for me.

SPEAKER_01:

I was thinking before this conversation about kind of all of these different parts of you, which I can't imagine occupy a small space, right? A mom of two little kids with another one on the way. Like that's that is not light parenting, right? So that's you know, that's big. You are you know deep into sort of also having to kind of pause a little bit because of because of your mom responsibilities, you're deep into a very you know meaningful and significant career that takes up a bunch of space, right? You also have this creative uh component to yourself, both writing about your own experiences and and poetry. I I know that you've also um started speaking, and you know, in that you're also a partner, you are also just a person. Like, how do you like even describing that? I'm just I feel like I need to take a nap. Like, how do you how do you integrate all of those and find the right balance and not constantly feel like you've left one of those categories wanting?

SPEAKER_02:

You know what? I actually think ironically, like something is always going to be wanting. Yeah, fair enough, and I think I think part of why I'm able to do it is acknowledging that I cannot do everything extremely well. And as a recovering perfectionist, I have learned I just need to be good enough. That is it. I don't have to be the world's best everything all at once because I will just burn out. There is there is no way, and I give myself that grace to know that there will be times where things are going to have to, I don't want to say suffer, but I can't be amazing at everything. And you know, put public speaking as I I haven't had a chance to really express how much that actually is a part of my life, but I've been doing it professionally now for 10 years. And I do it quite intensely. In fact, um, over the next five weeks, I think I have seven keynotes, most of which require getting on a plane and traveling for several hours. And so um, it's a very extraordinarily busy season of my life. And I think for me, it's all about prioritizing. There are things that I will never really let slip, or try my best not to let slip. And at the top of that is my role as a mother. I will always try and be the best mother that I can be because that's that's a value of mine, and that's what I believe my children deserve. And of course, being a writer, being a public speaker, being a good doctor for me especially. And I think the world of medicine, and this could be its own podcast on its own, but the world of medicine, it can be incredibly um, it can it can make one think that you have to give yourself wholly in order to be a good doctor, that it is intrinsically altruistic and sacrificial. And I think especially as a resident doctor, if you are not there, grinding to the bone and staying and working late and perfecting everything that you do and being the most knowledgeable and being the most up to date and all of that, which in effect is an endless pursuit. But you that really is kind of the culture that is baked into medicine. Um that's kind of what is expected of us. And I've had to let a lot of that go.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And so for me, it's I will be the best doctor I can be in the capacity that I have, the bandwidth that I have. And while I am there, I will be the best doctor that I can be. But when I need to go home and pick up my children and take over childcare and, you know, do the dinner and do the bathtime and the bedtime, that is my priority. And I'm not willing to compromise on that. And that is something that has shifted significantly for me since I became a mother almost four years ago. And so um, I think a a large part of keeping all of these different balls in the air and juggling everything is like recognizing that every now and again a ball is going to fall. And if the other balls are still in the air, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01:

In such an intensely competitive environment as a residency, it must be difficult to say, I'm gonna take the white coat off now and I'm gonna go home and it's time for bathtime. Like that's a I imagine that's a that's a tough line to draw, um, but potentially quite liberating if you can embody it. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

And it wasn't something that I was capable of doing until I became pregnant and became a mother. And that forced me out of medicine. It really did, because otherwise I would have been full steam ahead and you know, just it would have been my entire life. It would have consumed me. And I think becoming a mother has liberated me in so many ways. And the foremost way is recognizing that I no longer define my identity as being a doctor. And it's kind of ironic because when you asked me to introduce myself, it was the first thing that I, it was the first thing that I said, but I mentioned other things. And that was that was a real shift for me because before, if you would have asked me four years ago, she could tell me about yourself, I would just say, Oh, I'm a doctor and I'm a doctor in the specialty, and this is what I like. These are my academic interests. And I might have mentioned I was a poet and a writer and other things, but really my identity was baked into that. And I remember just this past couple of weeks, one of my co-residents, one of the other residents of my program, uh, who is not yet a mother and is an excellent doctor. And she was telling me, she said, you know, I want to apply to be the chief of our hospital and uh or or the junior chief of the hospital, which is a really important position and you know, really sets you up well to be the chief and then to get a staff physician and all these other things. And I remember thinking to myself, well, that's just not something that I would have the capacity for, but I'm so excited that she's doing it. And then when the news got announced that she did, you know, become the junior chief, I remember thinking to myself, there was that instant feeling of like, I'm so proud of her. And at the same time, that feeling of inadequacy that crept back in, that comparison, that, oh my gosh, like, look at this person doing great things. And like that is a huge, you know, kind of undertaking to take on top of residency. And I had to, I felt like I am not doing enough as a resident. I'm not a good enough resident because why didn't I apply for this position? What, like, what am I really doing? And I think I needed to, that only lasted about a few minutes because then I quickly reminded myself. And I'm like, oh, wait, in the in the little time that I have when I'm not in the hospital, I am dedicating myself fully to my children and to my art and to my my my craft as a writer and as a public speaker. And my schedule is packed, like from the minute I wake up to the minute I fall asleep. And not to say that that is how it should be. In fact, I think I need to cut back on what I'm doing. But I think it was just that realization that actually it's okay that I am not achieving all of these extra accolades in medicine, because then it just becomes an endless rat rain of what I need to do next. And so you're right, it has been very liberating to just be able to say, you know what, I'm gonna go home at five at 4:30 and I'm gonna pick up my kids for five. And that's where the buck stops, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00:

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SPEAKER_01:

You've mentioned public speaking a couple of times. How did that come about? Um, what are you talking about? What is that experience like?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my goodness, my my life as a public speaker, when did it start? So in a non-professional capacity, I guess you could say. I started public speaking when I was in elementary school. I don't know if this is still a thing. I think it is, but we had mandatory public speaking competitions in my elementary school. And we all had to write speeches and we all had to deliver it in front of the entire school. And then if we won within the school, then we went on to regionals and then, like, you know, it kept kind of progressing. And that was in grade seven and grade eight. And I remember winning both years and then going on to regionals and doing that a number of times. And that was really beautiful for me. And that was when I first started to share my writing in a non-poetic way. Um, that was just compelling writing in public speaking outside of poetry. But alongside this, I also started to share my poems publicly. And so I got invited by, you know, the teachers in my elementary school to share my poetry at like uh school assemblies as well. And like over the PA and stuff like that, they were like, you should just, you know, share it. And so I did it for Remembrance Day, and I, you know, shared my poetry about other things and they would always kind of call me up to share it. And so being in front of an audience and sharing my craft, whether it's public speaking or poetry, has always been very kind of innate to me. And then um, I did a lot of drama classes in high school, which is, you know, it just sets itself up. Like I wouldn't call myself a theater kid because I didn't do theater, but I loved drama and I loved kind of like learning about acting. And then, you know, slam poetry for me, which was something that I fell in love with as a little girl. I loved watching Deaf Poetry Jam that was put on in like, oh my gosh, the early 2000s, like you can't even find it anymore, except for like on YouTube. Like the videos are so old, but I loved watching Deaf Poetry Jam. And then when I went to university at Mac, I started to get a lot more serious about my slam poetry and spoken word poetry. And so I started to do competitive slam poetry through the Hamilton Youth Poets. And I did a lot of, I organized a lot of um slam poetry nights uh at Mac as well as in the community. And so I was very, very, very involved in the competitive slash just like slam poetry scene in university. Um, and I went to nationals and I did all this, all this stuff uh through competitive slam poetry. But then the public speaking came back for me professionally when I was in medical school. And this was really uh the platform for that came about when I was in my first year of medical school and I went public with my story of being the only Black medical student. I was asked on the behalf of the faculty at U of T to uh speak and promote the Black student application program at U of T and really do a lot of public-facing advocacy work around that. And then I got asked a lot to just share my story and speak at conferences and speak to schools and other universities and classrooms, and that really launched, that was the launching point for my professional public speaking career. And it has underwent or undergone a huge metamorphosis in the last 10 years. If you look at what I, you know, really started to public speak about almost 10 years ago versus what I do a lot of my public speaking around now. They are like worlds apart, but uh it's still something that is really important to my life.

SPEAKER_01:

I was looking at your website uh before the call. And, you know, it's interesting. If you go bottom to top, it almost feels like that journey of, you know, where you spend time on stage. So, you know, the last in the list, and and not obviously by importance, is that you know, diversity in medicine, right? The evolution of a black female doctor and advocate. Next is dare to occupy powerful spaces, women in leadership, next is DEI. Then you're getting into authentic leadership. And top of the list, which feels like it's maybe the most current, is the curious mind, a doctor's prescription to 21st century leadership and innovation. So that feels like where you're spending time now. What was the journey to get to there? And then appreciating that we don't have like a million hours together, what are you sharing these days about leadership and innovation?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so in a nutshell, you know, as you mentioned, the in like kind of the uh the beginning of my public speaking journey uh professionally was within the world of medicine and my experiences of being a black medical student, the only black medical student, and what that was like. And that's because that's what I was asked to talk about. And a lot of my advocacy, if not all of it, was centered around that. And so when I was in medical school, that was primarily what I spoke about. And when I went through medical school and into residency, which you know started almost five years ago or over five years ago for me now, I recognized that I felt like I had told the story that needed to be told. And I had told it to the audiences who needed to hear it. And I was using a lot of my um pain and trauma to communicate that particular story because people wanted to hear my narrative, they wanted to know what it was like, they wanted to, you know, that's what was evocative and emotive and all of those different things. And so that was really what I spent a lot of my time on stage doing. And I think the turning point for me was actually when I wrote my book, unlike the rest of Doctor's story, because I felt like I was getting asked a lot of the same questions. And I felt like people wanted to, you know, really hear me tell these stories of pain again and again. And so I felt like I had told the story that needed to be told. And for one last time, with finality, I was going to write about it in excruciating detail in my memoir, and then I was going to pivot. And I remember having this conversation several times with my speaking agency and with the CEO, and being like, okay, I am ready to undergo an evolution and I want to pivot, I want to change. I have three degrees in science. And let's let's spend some time there. Exactly. And like, despite how much I talk about diversity. Diversity, equity, and inclusion and how important it is to me. I don't have a single degree in it. Not to say that I don't have lived expertise or even academic expertise. I certainly do. But my life's work, my passions, my academic interests, everything that I feel like I've developed a real expertise in has been in medicine and science and neuroscience. And I geek out over neuroscience all the time. I absolutely love talking about it. And I just felt that it was time for me to pivot. I, you know, I have a master's degree in leadership and innovation. I love talking about that. And I'm an I'm a psychiatry resident. I love talking about the brain and neuroscience. Let's find a way to blend the two. And so now my keynotes talk about the neuroscience of innovation and leadership. And I've actually developed this, you know, kind of three-step process. I call it the blueprint of innovation that talks about the three pillars that are necessary for us to innovate individually and then collectively, and doing so through neuroscience-backed tips, such that you can be a more effective and compassionate leader and innovator. And so that's what I'm super passionate about. I am taking, I have taken this keynote on the road and I'm taking it on the road again this fall. And so it's also just great to not be defined by our pain and our trauma. Like I wanted, I wanted people to see me for more than just that black girl who was the only black girl in her medical school class. And that's an important story to tell, but I've told it and I'm ready to share other things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it almost feels like a fundamental reordering of black female doctor to doctor who happens to be black and female. And those two things in a unbelievably important way have impacted your lived experience, but it's time to talk about the doctor stuff, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly. And like I I don't want to leave behind any part of my identity. No, yeah. I I also don't want it to become the only thing. And that's actually what I noticed. If I can like take a moment to air a grievance, is that it's your it's it's your moments to take. Is that I just I I have felt for a long time that even though I had this expertise, and this is this is not um, you know, an individual grievance of mine, like this is what I hear from from other black clinicians, clinicians as well. Yeah, is that oftentimes we will only get tapped on the shoulder to speak on things as it relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that is so important. But if that is the only time that my voice matters, then that is a problem. Because Black people, black women, what we can offer the world is so much greater than our experiences of suffering and the insight that we can give to our trauma. And that's what I felt like was happening for me, that I was being pigeonholed into this one box. And I wasn't allowed to be doctor. I wasn't allowed to share insights on other things. And so that for me, it has been a really challenging, but ultimately so gratifying process and battle of reclaiming what my narrative is.

SPEAKER_01:

It it's it's such an interesting point that you make because having a black clinician only speak on topics of blackness is the least inclusive thing. It is specifically exclusive because that is the topic that is being asked of that individual exclusively. Exactly. So you mentioned this blueprint of blueprint of innovation. Can you just without sort of giving it all away, kind of talk about a few of the greatest hits in there?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. So the first pillar is that you want to prime your mind to be innovative, and that's where you leverage your ability to be curious, to be creative, and to critically think. That is how you prime your mind to be in its most innovative state. And then you can ignite the same capacity for innovation. So the second pillar is that you want to ignite the capacity for innovation in those that you lead. And that doesn't just mean who you lead professionally. This framework actually applies for those you love at home, those in the community that you lead, and also those that you may lead in a corporate or you know, organizational sense. And you unlock their capacity or you ignite their capacity for leadership and for innovation through leading with authenticity and leading with compassion. And then lastly, one of the greatest callings that we have as leaders is that we must harmonize our collective capacity to be innovative together. And that's how we're going to tackle some of the greatest challenges that we face as a humanity. This is how we're going to solve some of the greatest issues that we currently face. So this framework for me is just a roadmap to unlock the full potential of the mind and leadership. And I'm incredibly passionate about it.

SPEAKER_01:

And how did you develop that? Like, is this a little bit like the poetry where it starts to come out? Is there a much different degree of intentionality, like a sort of, you know, sit down in a room with a pen and paper? Like how did you start to formulate something that feels as easy to understand and easy to run with as that kind of blueprint?

SPEAKER_02:

I would say it was definitely a lot more intentional and more sitting down. It took me eight months of research to even put the keynote together because I wanted to ensure that the science was tight. And I also needed to make sure that it was palatable enough for an audience who does not have a science background, which is not as easy as one might think. Um, especially when you want to ensure that people respect you as a doctor and as someone who is coming from this academic background. So that was a really fine balance, and it took me months of restructuring and figuring out. But the actual blueprint itself, it was, I wouldn't say it was always there, but originally, like the the idea behind it was I am a doctor, I am a poet, and I often get asked, you know, how do you have this mind that kind of works in medicine and in metaphor? Like, how do you find your zone of genius in these two different things? And for a long time I thought these were like different operations of my brain, but I recognize that in fact, what I've been doing is leveraging this foundation of curiosity and creativity that just makes me a really good doctor and a really good poet and a really good leader. And it's like, oh, this is a skill set that we're actually all born with that we can hone, we can train it. And then as soon as that clicked for me, I just needed to kind of lay out like, what is the science behind this? Why does this feel just so innate and organic for me? And how can you, you know, kind of bring others along in that journey? And that's how it all kind of came together. But it took several months to put together. It was not as quick and seamless as a poem.

SPEAKER_01:

That's really an amazing description of what that process is and also how it helped, I think, probably connect a bunch of dots for you personally. And it's interesting on the connecting dots uh metaphor. I always wonder, you know, how do I wrap these conversations up? And I feel like you just did a fantastic job of wrapping it up for me. Um, you've been an unbelievable guest. I honestly, if you did not have a hard stop, uh, I would have kept you in front of the mic for as long as humanly possible. This has been such an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time today.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you for having me. This has been a great chat. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for listening. We make this show for you, and so we would love to hear from you. If you have ideas, guest suggestions, or accolades, we love the accolades. You can always find me at Neil at pharmabrands. Thanks again to change makers. You can learn more at thechangemakers.com. We hope to see you back here in a couple of weeks.