Rob McEwan and Michael Service from ChangeMakers on the Power of Perspective When Navigating Change.

On this episode of The PharmaBrands Podcast, we welcome not one, but two guests to the show: Rob McEwan, EVP of Health, and Michael Service, SVP of Healthcare Strategy at Changemakers. In a world where the lines between marketing, PR and reputation management are more blurred than ever, Michael and Rob share their views on the value of a multidisciplinary approach.

Changemakers partnered with PharmaBrands to help bring this season of the podcast to life, we deeply appreciate their support and hope you enjoy our conversation with Rob and Michael as much as we enjoyed recording it. 

Learn more at: thechangemakers.com.

The PharmaBrands podcast is hosted by Neil Follett and Produced by Chess Originals.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Who We Are
• 2:00 The Grey Zone Between PR And Marketing
• 5:00 Building Changemakers From Six Firms
• 9:30 Why One Brand: The Name And Vision
• 12:30 AI Mandates, Guardrails, And Momentum
• 17:00 Data Intelligence And Compliance In Practice
• 20:30 Efficiency, Fear, And The Human Layer
• 24:00 Where AI Helps Most In Marketing
• 27:00 Inside The Health Misinformation Study
• 30:00 What Brands Can Do About Misinformation
• 34:00 Meeting Patients On Social, Safely
• 37:00 Competing With Products And Narratives
• 40:00 Beyond Awareness: Driving Understanding

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to the Farmer Brands Podcast. I'm your host, Neil Follett, and I hope you are all keeping warm and cheerful as the days get shorter and colder. I'm excited to bring in today's conversation for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is my personal connection to our guests, Michael and Rob and their company Changemakers. The very short story is that back in 2022, I completed a transaction on my agency Brightworks, where we brought six businesses together to form a new North American business that formed the foundation of Changemakers. One of the core value propositions of Changemakers is that to navigate, manage, survive, and thrive in today's business world, you need a multidisciplinary team that can help guide you and your brands through change. In today's conversation, Rob McEwen, EVP of Health, and Michael Service, SVP of Healthcare Strategy, share their perspectives and vision for how that value proposition comes to life and benefits clients in life sciences. As I've said for the last few episodes, Changemakers partnered with pharma brands to help bring this season of the podcast to life, and we deeply appreciate their support. I'm excited to share my conversation with Michael and Rob. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me this morning. So great to be here with you, Neil. Thanks for your time. Looking forward to it. I think this is the first uh multi-guest pharma brands podcast that we've done. So breaking new ground here. And uh appropriate that it's a multi-guest episode because I think Changemakers is uh a little bit different than some of the other businesses that we've featured or folks that we've talked to, because there are two pretty, I think, distinct uh parts of the business. So maybe each of you give me a little kind of who is Changemakers and what part of the business do each of you represent?

SPEAKER_02: 1:57

Changemakers is a uh independent reputation management, social impact, and marketing firm. We have offices across Canada and also offices in the US. We uh we really pride ourselves as uh as an agency to be a true value add partner for our clients. And we have distinct specialized areas of business. One of them is in uh health. Uh, I have personally been um a health communications professional working in an agency environment for over 25 years. Um, it is an honor and honestly a privilege to lead this incredible team of dedicated healthcare marketers and healthcare communications professionals.

SPEAKER_00: 2:39

And from a marketing perspective, we work with healthcare marketing in pharmaceuticals. So, one of the great advantages of having the organization work so closely together is that I've been able to work across both marketing and communications initiatives. And I think that it just keeps things fresh and it keeps things uh we we take a different perspective on it because we we have that cross-pollination, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01: 3:02

As we sit here at the getting to the tail end of 2025, more than ever, it feels like sort of comms is on this big spectrum. There's maybe like really discrete ends of the spectrum where you know you have a DTC ad uh just you know, sort of squarely in marketing, or you're doing maybe some government affairs work very squarely in PR reputation management. But it feels like there's this really big kind of spot in the middle where it gets gray as to whether or not that that is what would be traditionally considered PR or what is traditionally considered marketing. You mentioned, you know, you throw social in there, you throw media in there. Are you finding uh there's a fair amount of space in the middle where both the kind of historical PR perspective and the historical marketing perspective can meet in a very interesting way and bring maybe a different perspective to clients compared to maybe a firm that doesn't have both of those kind of crafts built in?

SPEAKER_02: 4:05

Yes. Next question. No, but yeah, no, really good. No, you know what? I mean, it is, it's um, I think, I mean, change makers, you know, uh, as a vision, you know, bringing together uh six firms with a lot of great marketing experience, some PR experience, we all had a book of business. And so when we came together, you know, unlike other startups um and other firms, there wasn't, you know, an immediate need to send clients around and you know, for offices to literally worry about keeping the lights on because we all had established books of business. We all had established you know relationships. And where I think that there has been some of the greatest benefit is in healthcare. And so health is one of the biggest pillars and verticals that we're working in. Um, and um on the marketing side, uh, we have the pleasure of working with JJ and CSL Behring and Vertex and so um and Abbott, a number of you know, of your established pharma life science brands. And on the same you know, side of PR, we were we've been working for years with GSK and we've been working with Nova Nordisk, and we've been working with Takeda and ABB. There was this incredible established book of business, but that gray area that you referenced, uh again, we we've seen where clients are, you know, either looking at reimbursement and trying to focus their efforts, you know, either at a federal or a provincial level, uh, or there's you know, uh above-brand disease understanding campaigns that they're doing. And maybe, you know, it was uh it was uh came in as a marketing-driven play, but we've identified opportunities where earn media could very nicely complement paid uh uh media and get you know that kind of surround sound effort. So yeah, it is being realized and and we're seeing it come to fruition. I will say the best thing has been that because we've now been doing this, you know, we're going into our third year of collaboration. And again, as I mentioned, you know, there was no need to force fit anything, there was no need to upsell clients because everyone was, you know, functioning and had their own business. So it's really been organic. It's been these opportunities where we talk to clients. And again, when they have a problem or they have a need, it's coming to them and looking at solutions that really do support their business and you know, meeting their needs. And so it's been truly, you know, a collaborative but organic, uh natural way. And uh some clients have said, no, I don't I don't want to do that, or I have another agency partner that already does that. And that that's completely understandable. But there have been, uh, you know, and it's growing, it's it's more so than not, where clients are at least open to the idea and very much want to hear what we're thinking. Um, and you know, I I've never once had a client say, I don't appreciate you thinking about my business, or I don't appreciate these ideas. It's it's quite the contrary.

SPEAKER_01: 6:52

It it is actually, we're recording, I I think almost three years to the day, maybe three years plus a day from when Believeco was announced, which is the precursor to Changemakers. The six firms, one of them was my former agency, uh, Brightworks, uh, Revolve out east with the East Coast perspective, Venture Play and in Calgary with a with a West Coast uh perspective, some folks in Vancouver as well. Changemakers, the Indigenous advisory firm. And the biggest of the firms in in the deal was Argyle, which is where you uh came from, Rob, which which had uh the D PR perspective on the health side of the business, and then Brightworks had the health perspective on the on the marketing side of the business. It's been a big three years, I'm sure, of integration. Maybe speak to uh the birth of change makers as it is today as an evolution from Believe Co, which is where the business, at least on the marketing side, originally launched. So maybe talk about why change makers versus where it was maybe a year or so ago, which was kind of a separately branded marketing and a separately branded PR entity.

SPEAKER_02: 8:04

Yeah. Um, so you know, like most businesses, they evolved. And so coming together, you know, with the six different companies, and you did very kindly reference CastleMane. So CastleMane is our indigenous advisory. Oh, did I you said change makers? I'm more than happy with the double double down of the brand name. So thank you, Neil.

SPEAKER_01: 8:21

Either Darrell will either Daryl will either uh uh edit that out or we'll leave that in to show that I am an imperfect host.

SPEAKER_02: 8:29

No, I I mean I think you know, with the firms all coming together, like again, you know, there was everyone was doing amazing work, and you know, everyone was you know leaders in their in their own markets and and in their own right. And so I think when we all came together, there was, I know there were discussions about, you know, do we keep some of these you know legacy brands? You know, you mentioned Argyle. I mean, Argyle has been operating in Canada's PR space, and actually we even we we've we we expanded in the US for over four decades. You know, it's a known, you know, name. We we actually did you know some some consultation and focus groups with our clients to ask them, you know, should we you know change our name? And so there was a lot of discussion, but you know, when you when you bring all these businesses together, I think that the you know the biggest and most important, I guess, factor, and also it's really an intangible, is the people. So, I mean, what we're not making, you know, widgets, we're not you know selling anything except for our expertise in our services. And the people were really, you know, are at the core of everything that we do. So we had to realize and be very transparent, you know, in the beginning there there were some bumps, and you know, there were different people had different thoughts and and different ideas. And so, and and and we, you know, we heard them out and we made a decision as an organization to kind of lean into you know this aspect uh of change. And ironically, one of the businesses actually that Argyle acquired well over a decade ago, based in Winnipeg, was actually called Changemakers. And so we had the, I guess, the intellectual property, the the trademark, you know, we own that that doname and all that information. And, you know, as there were discussions and we were just looking at truly what we are trying to do as an organization and looking at how we want to differentiate ourselves from our very smart, competitive peers, we we leaned into this aspect of change because in the end, you know, in the in what we're doing for our clients, we we we are looking at changing behaviors, we are looking at changing attitudes, we're looking at changing outcomes. And so regardless of the business, you know, what what regardless of what you were doing, you know, the interaction that we were having with clients, ultimately everything was coming down to change. Nobody was hiring us to do the status quo. So that really kind of you know identified and created this opportunity for us to lean into this aspect of change, which really is at the fundament, you know, the fundamental level, everything that all of us are trying to do.

SPEAKER_01: 11:00

You mentioned change, and I I feel like we're all any anybody who's in the in the communication space right now is feeling change probably more acutely in this current moment than ever. You know, we see it with uh some of the big uh holding companies, uh, you know, you see uh mergers, you see some pretty significant staffing changes, you see new platforms being launched. Uh Steph Moores was just uh recently sort of uh announced as the as the permanent CEO uh of Changemakers. He was, I think, uh sort of interim for a bit, long-standing leader uh within the organization. And uh when his announcement came out, uh he had a quote saying, you know, we're gonna be on the cutting edge of AI, technology, and innovation while keeping our focus on the human-centered relationships that build trust, drive results, and enhance reputation. That's how we'll deliver value every day. So it sounds like obviously similar to sort of any business that is looking to stay competitive, you are in the process, probably, and I'm I'm gonna imagine it's a process because it probably hasn't been answered, but in the process of figuring out how do you kind of propel and accelerate the work that you're doing through uh AI tools, platforms, technology, et cetera. Where are you guys on that journey? How has that been? Because I know it's not easy and it's a big shift.

SPEAKER_02: 12:27

Yeah, I'll have two, uh, just very two quick thoughts because I really like to hear Michael Service's, you know, thoughts on this. Yeah, I mean, listen, you're you're right. AI has, you know, changed everything. And, you know, I literally recall in probably Q3 of 2024, clients, you know, coming to us, a few of our clients, reminding us that, you know, AI, you know, Chat GPT, whatever it is, the these programs should not be used because there is, you know, with our master service agreements, there were very specific terms about privacy. There were very specific terms about, you know, we're being hired, for instance, to you know, draft content. And so if you're going to be using, you know, these tools, uh, you know, there needs to be disclosure. There was a lot of you know concern about how in in the summer and going into yeah, the the later half of 2024 about you know, parameters and guidelines surrounding AI use. And then quite literally in going into Q2 2025, I was hearing those same clients say to us, you know, you can't, where where are you using, you know, aren't you using AI more? Well, exactly. Why aren't you using AI more? Where why am I you know looking at you know an invoice you know with 10 hours to do something when you know, presumably it could have been done done much more efficient? And that that's completely you know fair. And so, but what I what is just really, really blows my mind is at the speed of what that you know that change was, because it literally was over 12 months where I was having you know big, big, you know, research-based global pharma companies, yeah, take you know, this this understandable, cautious, you know, we have to, you know, be mindful. I'm worried about what we're gonna be putting out, you know, in and disclosing, you know, information privacy and confidential information, completely fair points and still very prudent and accurate to, yeah, let's make sure that we're you know maximizing our efforts and using AI, you know, in an efficient way. So I just think the speed of that happening in business is is truly remarkable. And the fact that, you know, it it's here and you know, companies need to be embracing it more. The second point you mentioned, I mean, Stefan. Stefan has been, you know, with our company and part of our leadership team for, you know, even by the he was he was with me at Argyll. And the he has championed and and really you know focused and I'm gonna say doubled down on this topic of AI. I I will be very transparent. You know, AI use has always been there in the last year, and it's kind of been on the side of the desk as to how to be more efficient. But he really is, you know, focusing and wants and needs our business. And this is from you know, his latest, you know, kind of, I guess, direction on this has been, you know, everyone in the organization, no matter what you're doing, and no matter what your title is, you know, people need to be comfortable in using AI in compliant and appropriate ways. But it is something that we are leaning into heavy, and it is, you know, the future of the business.

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

100% agreed. And I think the really nice thing about that is like yes, we were being challenged to see how we can explore using it daily, every individual at change makers. But then what we've also done is we've we've identified a team. We have a data intelligence team that is really leading the charge and trying to find out ways that we can leverage this tool for efficiencies in a very uh considered way. So that, and you you really do need a champion because there's so many ways you can go with AI. And if there's someone that's not truly championing it, I think it could, you know, you have best intentions, but it just you just won't get to where you need to be. So that's one thing that we're really proud of to have that team standing up and really looking into that and figuring out what is best for the organization.

SPEAKER_02: 16:03

Building on that, yeah. So our data intelligence team is, you know, looking at best practices and you know, talking to academics. I mean, McMaster's got some really, really great, you know, interesting programs and taught leadership on this topic. And we're literally at the table with them. We're collaborating with our clients and you know, we're we're talking to them about you know tools. I was actually at a pharma brands conference last year, and I remember you had, I believe it was somebody from Sanofi uh speaking and talking about their own internal closed, you know, gated AI, you know, platform. Takeda has, you know, the same. Everyone is using AI, which is it is incredible and needed, but I think also everyone is using AI differently. And so, as you know, a service provider, we have to be you know looking at ways to be, you know, follow the strict regulations and guidance, not only from you know, Health Canada and in the healthcare space, but also our clients and their legal requirements. But we also need to be looking at, yeah, just like what is always happening, what's evolving, what's the next best practice? And we're we're our data intelligence team is literally right now looking at you know, building some tools to support that, leveraging you know, different you know, programs that are out there and software applications. And so it is something that is evolving, but it is something that, you know, I'm very proud and pleased to say that it's no longer on the side of our desk. It is literally at the core of everything that we're doing.

SPEAKER_01: 17:25

So just on the shift, I mean, I've many times heard this notion of sort of clients sort of forbidding AI usage, some clients standing up uh gated AI platforms internally. It sounds like you've recognized a shift or have seen a shift from clients in the last, say, 12 months from maybe a bit more kind of like AI nervous and skeptical to a little bit more on the category of why aren't you using it? What do you think has driven that shift? And maybe there's not a single answer because there's a bunch of different probably client kind of experiences, but is that shift, you know, you mentioned they're looking at estimates saying it was 10 hours, don't you think you could have done it in eight? Do you think that some of that shift is coming from uh either procurement or a perceived sense of cost savings? Is some of that shift coming from the fact that they are becoming more comfortable with those tools? And so it's an easier conversation for them to then have with their agency partner about those tools? Is it a is it a corporate mandate? Like, are you seeing patterns in a client's comfort level increasing with yeah?

SPEAKER_02: 18:32

I think I mean it's a couple things. And uh, I mean, you've hit on a couple of them. I I think you know, efficiency certainly is one of them. I mean, um, I believe in whether that be, you know, procurement or whether that be, you know, even just at the highest level, organizations saying we need to be more efficient, we need to be, you know, better. Um, we're all working in a very competitive uh, you know, market and landscape. And so we need to find ways to, you know, do things uh faster. We need to find ways to do things and basically bring you know our innovation and our ideas to market in a more um effective manner. So efficiency and that will that does certainly does come down, you know, and in our business model when you're looking at, you know, uh billing literally by uh 15-minute increments, like that, that is something that is, you know, going to disrupt, you know, and anyone. And so as I mentioned, you know, we have a we have a data intelligence team and and our CEO is making this a priority. I I truly believe any agency in any you know market who is not looking at ways to um embrace AI, you're you're not going to be, you know, in business much longer. So, and that leads, you know, one to another, I think, you know, uh issue or I guess kind of concern or development surrounding AI is fear. I think a lot of people, and you know, myself included, you start to hear about all these incredible things, you know, whether, you know, you can now go into Chat GPT and it's gonna create an incredible PowerPoint jack in literally minutes, you know, better than you know, I could have done, you know, in in with hours of time. You know, that that's that's a scary, you know, realization. And so I think, you know, as AI, and I mentioned that 12-month window of clients literally in 2024 saying, uh, be careful and like don't use it because we're worried about, you know, um uh confidentiality and and uh trademarks and you know, literally um plagiarism to yeah, like let's how are we leaning into this more and and what are your processes and tools for actually using AI? So that's that's a huge, you know, um and a very short, you know, runway to make that happen. But I think during that time, you know, that aspect of fear, people have realized that as as great as AI is, you know, it's not going to replace, you know, everyone. It is going to make certain things more efficient, but it's not going to replace strategy. It's not going to replace experience. It's not going to replace relationships and interactions, you know, with reporters until you get to a point where the Globe and Mail or the CBC is completely, you know, published and generated by all AI and reporters are, you know, sent out to pasture, you know, you're not going to get in a situation where, you know, the communications industry is, you know, completely, you know, automated. So I think people realize that. And there are some drawbacks. And so, you know, while you need to be using AI efficiently, you need to also, you know, be governing yourself accordingly and how you are using AI and bringing that human element, that experience, that strategic, you know, um uh line of thought to to everything that you're doing with with this AI use.

SPEAKER_01: 21:39

And Michael, are you seeing that on the marketing of things? That you know, the the uh medical writing is something I hear a ton about. Um, why aren't we doing more medical writing with AI? You know, derivative work. There's a ton of ad app, especially in in Canada, it's like global adap work a ton that that happens. That you know, these are the examples on the on the marketing side where uh kind of efficiencies are can are are consistently referenced. I I will say that that uh I think with varying with varying degrees of of results. Um there's a there's a little bit of a an AI fantasy right now about how efficient and and smooth all of this is, but what are you seeing on the marketing side and where are you uh most excited about that about the potential for clients who are maybe a little bit more uh kind of marketing oriented within the change makers universe?

SPEAKER_00: 22:31

I mean, I think I think the big thing is going to be efficiencies, and I think you've nailed it, you you you definitely touched on some of the things that are are really where you're gonna see AI, I think, flourish, and that's in you know the iterations of of different pieces. I mean, I know that Pab, for example, is is embracing AI and the whole review process. So they're looking at uh they have a significant investment made in trying to speed up that process and the efficiencies as of that process through AI. Similarly, I think that that's where you might see some advantages too, and in being able to find claims and things that are already approved, and you don't have to go through that whole process. And it's you know, it's already being leveraged by some organizations, more so in the US, from what I've I've seen, but they they are actually leveraging it to produce things like you know, emails and things like that. So there's some things, those iterative iterations of content that's already been approved that might be pulled and be able to create pieces faster. It's gonna be, you know, create a lot more speed to market, which is great, as well as the efficiencies. But I think there still will be a need for place uh and a and a place for medical writing because especially in Canada, because it is it is a difficult thing to navigate the PAB code. And even if you have PAB reviewers applying that PAB code from an AI perspective, I think you still need to have people that understand how to write the content in the first place. Um, I think that uh exploring localization of global campaigns might be something that AI can really help push the boundaries on to, because I think that it's it's hard. It's hard to do that in Canada. And it might be great to be able to turn to AI to come up with creative ways that we haven't even thought about it. So those are some things that I think will be interesting to see how how things play out in the future.

SPEAKER_01: 24:16

You guys have have recently put out a really interesting report on misinformation and the impacts on clinical decision making. Maybe give me sort of the why now and what are the greatest hits of that report? Why did why did you do that report? Why did you do it now? And what were the big takeaways?

SPEAKER_00: 24:34

Uh great question. And honestly, I mean, it was sort of well, the reason why we did it now, or at the time that we did it in the summer is that the Canadian uh medical association had come out with uh a misinformation report from the patient perspective. So we thought it would be interesting to explore from the healthcare perspective what the information was like. So that's why we did that research with 75 healthcare professionals, 25 uh GPs, FPS, uh 25 nurses or nurse practitioners and 25 pharmacists. So we we we truly wanted to get their perspective. And the results were pretty interesting and very telling. And you know, like the one of the biggest ones was like 97% of the HCPs felt that misinformation posed a significant risk to providing appropriate care. And they another one, another key finding was they spend on average almost one day per week just dealing with misinformation. So it's a significant problem that they're facing. You know, the other thing is that only about a third of the HCPs felt that they were actually really even equipped to handle this misinformation that they're they're facing too. So again, like significant problem, and I just don't feel that they're necessarily the best equipped to handle it.

SPEAKER_01: 25:46

The report I found was really, really interesting. And actually um uh both unsurprising and surprising at the same time, right? Like it was unsurprising insofar as yeah, like it feels like this is a really big problem, um, just sort of at a gut level. Surprising, I think, in terms of uh scale, and just surprising to see how uh pervasive it is and the impact that it actually has on those those HCP's uh clinical experience. But as you were putting this out, naturally, as marketers and as folks who are focused on reputation management, I'm sure your thoughts uh went quite quickly to okay, what can brands, what can industry do to counteract this? What's the the the high-level takeaway for brands in the face of this kind of pervasive misinformation and the impact that it's got on um in the clinical setting? And maybe again, this is well, my all my questions are really long and then like they're so ambiguous that it's even hard to answer. But it it might be that there is no single answer. But what was your what was your sense of what can be done? So um agreed, I mean, you know, we weren't really agreed that that was a really long question.

SPEAKER_02: 27:03

That's our answer. Well, I do agree with that, but no, I I agree with a lot of the insightful comments that you you've just you know made. Listen, we we weren't surprised uh to you know get these results as as you've noted, but there were a couple of you know, I think very interesting um you know points that came out. Um, you know, number one, the fact that health okay, and sorry, one important point. The the reason why I don't believe we were surprised is that, you know, Dr. Google is, you know, the real thing. And, you know, as soon as you if people get, you know, a diagnosis, if people, you know, feel that they have some sort of ailment, something hurts, the first thing that they're doing is going online and doing a search. So, you know, it's not a surprise that, you know, misinformation is this enormous growing public health issue. To Michael's point, though, you know, it while that's been kind of like well documented and you know, from the CMA to other, you know, very, very credible um research and meta-analysis, we were really, you know, interested as to what what was happening, what this meant for the healthcare professional. And so, you know, uh, I thought two alarming uh points. One, that um a majority of healthcare professionals are getting pushback from patients in you know the EER, in you know, the clinic, um, where they're basically questioning their medical recommendations because they'll hold up, hold up their phone and say, you know, Chat GPT says this, Doc. You know, that that they're they're questioning, you know, their uh prescribing and you know medical counsel. Um uh that that that's a significant challenge. The other is again, you know, healthcare professionals, they're spending on average a day, a day of their clinical practice time every week uh addressing and combating this. And they've told us that they don't feel like they have the tools or the resources to support this. So your your important ask about, you know, what does this mean? I see an incredible opportunity for research-based life science industries to lean into what they've been doing for decades, and that is developing referenced, clinically reviewed, you know, whether it be their medical departments, their regulatory, their legal departments, you know, uh research-based pharma companies put out uh authentic, you know, vetted, accurate information that is above brand, that is talking about a disease, that is making, you know, a tremendous effort to communicate in a manner with you know patients so that they'll understand what that diagnosis means. And, you know, even the three of us sitting here talking, we've spent the bulk of our careers helping, you know, life science companies, you know, do that. And so this now is just created even more of an opportunity for them to do, and you know, and a requirement for them to actually. Provide that leadership. There's a cliche that, you know, a lie goes around the world twice as fast as the truth. I think now with AI, and I think, you know, with the level and volume of misinformation that is out there, you need research-based pharma companies providing the accurate, informed, patient-driven, and patient-centric information now more than ever. And, you know, the healthcare professionals that we were talking to, again, welcome industry's support because they know that they are, you know, heavily regulated. They know that they can't put out information that has not been vetted and verified. And so they welcome it. So I think that this is now a tremendous opportunity, you know, for us and for the companies that we represent to continue to do the important work that they do to support patient needs.

SPEAKER_01: 30:49

You know, certain generations, the number one demographic that's impacted by misinformation in your report is 18 to 26 year olds. Um 18 to 26 year olds do not read the Globe and Mail. So so showing up where the demographic is with compelling and truthful content is, I have to imagine, a bit of a challenge.

SPEAKER_00: 31:13

It's a great question, Neil. And it's uh it is something that I know that, like for a long time, I think that, and I mean, I don't want to put words in Pharma's mouth, but I know that there was probably a hesitancy or a reluctancy to explore social channels because they're so difficult to navigate. I think there is a recognition now that that is an important medium where patients are and that has to be addressed because that's also a big source of misinformation. So I think that, you know, they're trying to address that slowly but surely and find ways of reaching out to patients that way. And I think one of the things that we do to help with that, obviously, is we offer very significant monitoring programs so that we're making sure that anything, you know, if there is posting features, which usually there isn't, even you have to turn a lot of those off depending on what the campaign would be. But we're making sure we're monitoring to that so that the content, whatever is live is is okay, and whatever people are commenting on is okay, and and trying to to do the best we can to regulate it. But I think that you're gonna see more and more companies embracing this opportunity because they know that it is an important channel and it has to be addressed. I mean, and and look at like I we talked about Dr. Google, but there's so much other misinformation that you know we don't want to get into politics, but we know might be um coming up in waves from from down down south by people in very prominent positions that's even further uh and they're using social media as uh a way of spreading a lot of that inform this information as well. So it's it's definitely an area that you know is is being explored, and people want to uh break into more from a pharma perspective.

SPEAKER_01: 32:51

Yeah, and I should I should note, I mean, I I I uh I wouldn't say I picked on, but I picked up the social because it was first in the list, uh um, and sort of you know, fairly overwhelmingly, 69% of physicians said that that was that was a channel. But but you know, you go down that list and you report, and uh frankly, like there's some of some of the the the classic greatest hits of marketing and comms in there patient ed material, news and media coverage, you know, uh materials for clinic displays, uh patient advocacy involvement, uh, you know, training, CME. These are uh the bread and butter of almost every brand planner. And so uh it may be uh that it's about looking at those uh pillars uh through a lens as we get deeper into 25, 26, 27, through a lens maybe not just of sort of messaging on brand, but being mindful of messaging on brand in an environment where there is uh such an impact of misinformation. And I don't know exactly how that would change the strategy, but I think that how do we show up in a competitive environment is something to contemplate. How do we position against those other products that may be top of mind for physicians? But it feels like the playing field has changed. And it's not just that we are in a competitive environment with other products, we are a competitive environment with other information, uh, which I think is just it, it's that was a big takeaway I had from the report.

SPEAKER_00: 34:27

Yeah, definitely, for sure. I mean, it you know, it's that whole omni channel thing is the ultimate goal, too, in in pharma. At some point, that would be, you know, where and people are you know making inroads with that and trying to explore getting closer and closer to a true omni channel for physicians and hopefully even patients at some point. And one point I wanted to circle back with you too is you're mentioning about like Dr. Google, and then you're also mentioning how people are searching chat GPT. I mean, that's becoming part of our mix too, is not even just SEO but uh GEO to really look at how these chat GPTs are doing search and driving search as well.

SPEAKER_02: 35:05

We talked, I mean, one of the the biggest challenges uh surrounding you know social use within industry is you know Health Canada regulations and is um DTC regulations. And I mean, um the clients that we're working with, you know, leading uh research-based, you know, life science companies, they there is, you know, there's the regulation, and then most of them are even above, you know, uh, so they are uh hyper compliant and they are you know making sure that they are uh following, you know, uh uh the federal you know regs uh from Health Canada. But what I think our team, you know, uh comes and we always come to the table, and of course, everything that we do is, you know, compliant. It is, you know, the table stakes, it is the requirement. But I see you know Health Canada regulations as a sandbox, and there's a lot that you can do by staying in that sandbox. And so um we we see you know a number of campaigns, a number of opportunities, especially above brand, especially where it is truly rooted in disease understanding and you know education. And that's even been a shift, you know, as well. Like a lot of you know, a lot of campaigns for years were all about uh awareness. And I frankly think anyone that's talking about awareness, again, is you know, I believe that you're going to be left behind, just like, you know, not appropriately embracing AI. You really want to be looking at understanding. And this is where, again, you know, uh uh research-based pharma, it plays an incredible and important role to talk about empowerment and to talk about, you know, uh educating and giving patients the tools, you know, to have conversations of meaning with their doctors. Because we also know, I mean, you know, one thing that hasn't changed is that, you know, appointments with docs are rushed. And you go in and you've got a lot on your mind. And, you know, you want to make sure that you're maximizing that time, not only for you as the patient, but also for the doc. And so being going in and informed and, you know, making sure that you're maximizing the time that you have with your healthcare professional is just going to be, you know, a better outcome for you, a better outcome for the system, a better outcome for the healthcare professional. And so these are all, you know, opportunities and something that I feel is, you know, really, really exciting and and truly where the business is evolving. And and we're really, you know, uh Changemakers is doubling down on misinformation. And it is, as uh, you know, we we talked about, you know, even our standalone departments looking at AI. These two issues, as we've been discussing, are hand in hand. You can't, you don't have, you know, AI and incredible, you know, enhancements and volumes, increased volumes of information without, you know, misinformation and without you know, things that are being put out that are not referenced and things that are actually even purposely, you know, being tried to mislead people or they're you know biased. And so again, this is where I feel that the industry, well, of course, I'm not gonna say that we're all working for, you know, saints, like they are making medicines. They are doing research to bring new innovative therapies to the table. And they obviously want patients, you know, who need those medicines to access them. So there is, you know, their you know, intent. However, they ultimately do want an informed public. They ultimately want patients to, you know, make sure that they're going in and navigating the system as efficiently as possible. And I see that as truly the greatest role and the greatest opportunity that all of this right now with AI, with misinformation, and with, you know, um healthcare evolving in the industry, um, you know, it's just creating incredible exciting opportunities.

SPEAKER_01: 38:36

So where can uh folks who are listening to this episode and uh are now intrigued uh about this report? One, where can they go and find the report? And then for folks who are maybe contemplating meeting new agency partners, uh, maybe folks who can have a slightly different perspective, uh, where can folks find you two?

SPEAKER_00: 38:59

We'd encourage you to go visit thechangemakers.com, our website. And there you we have a dedicated health section. You'll see that prominently featured. If you go into the health section, you will find the bios for both Rob and I. Uh there's links there for them. And there's also a link to the uh health misinformation report. You can either read it online or you could even download the report there.

SPEAKER_01: 39:21

I had my podcast host hat on when I started, not my co-founder of Pharma Brands hat on when I started, uh, because I actually should have started this episode the way I'm gonna end it, which is by thanking Changemakers and both of you uh for uh being a really big support uh for Pharma Brands since the beginning. I think you guys have been involved in uh almost every single one of our conferences. You've been on stage a whole bunch, uh, and uh you have very generously uh made this season of the podcast happen. So uh I want to say thank you for your support and also thank you for this conversation. I really uh I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

Really appreciate that. And you know, we want to sincerely thank you. I mean, you created, you know, this uh the pharma brands platform to quite frankly, you know, fill a void and provide an opportunity for the life science industry and for all those supporting it, you know, in marketing and PR and you know, uh media, uh uh creative, you know, this really um important platform to share and comment on the incredible work that this industry does. So thank you for doing this and educating and um informing uh this uh uh our peers and our colleagues. So really appreciate it. Thanks very much, Neil.

SPEAKER_01: 40:37

Thanks again to the team at Changemakers for being great partners and great guests. Two weeks from now, we'll drop our last episode of 2025. Don't be upset, we'll be back in early 2026. Keep an eye out on December 10th for my conversation with Emily Seal, Executive Director of Cleo's Health, where we talk awards, the state of creativity in healthcare marketing, and so much more. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here in two weeks.