Dave Makerewich, Founder, Maven, Reflecting on the Challenges, Changes and Celebrations Along His 10-Year Entrepreneurial Journey.

We all know that big milestones are an opportunity to reflect and that’s just what Dave does on this episode. In conversation with our host Neil Follett, Dave reflects on the motivation for Maven when it was just an idea and shares the moment he took the leap to start out his own business. He reflects on staffing and scaling up and talks about the clients and changes that have powered Maven’s success over the last decade. Dave's thoughtful answers make for an episode we know you’ll enjoy.

The PharmaBrands podcast is hosted by Neil Follett and Produced by Chess Originals.

For more information on our next Age of AI event please visit: www.pharmabrands.ca

Transcript

Welcome And The 10 Year Mark

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Dave McCarowicz, founder of Maven. Awesome. Dave, thank you for joining me on what is sort of a delightfully warm Monday afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

First off, I think some congratulations are in order. I think Maven just passed your 10-year anniversary. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Yeah, January, uh, 10 years. Um it's great. You say that with a a sigh almost. I say it with a sigh only because how quickly I feel like it's gone by, and that's more of a reflection of, oh my God, I'm getting old. You know, how much has uh has happened in the last 10 years with with Maven and you know, with my family. And I've got three young kids now, and this and that. But yeah, I don't know. It's uh you kind of stop and reflect at a big milestone like that, and you kind of think about the journey and everything you've been through. And I don't know. A lot of people talk about the milestone. I mean, thank first, thank you for recognizing it and and calling it out. Um, I have been getting a lot of love on LinkedIn and other places on it. And, you know, everyone talks about the milestone, but I mean, you yourself, Neil, must know as well. Like starting and growing a company is very little to do with like giant milestones and very much to do with just making progress every day. Like it's just a every single day you're you're trying to get closer and closer to your goals, and uh it just flies by, right? It's kind of like what they say about kids the the days are long and the years are short, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Yes, absolutely. Okay, so I'm glad you're reflecting because that's part of what I want to do in this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

So why

From Biotech To Marketing

SPEAKER_01 1:36

don't we start just more than 10 years ago? Maven, what were you up to? And then to the you know supplier side, uh, and I think I'm gonna do my own thing here.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Like, let's talk about the the end of your yeah, so right before Maven, I was a marketing manager for several years for a few different big brands uh in Canada. And I I don't know, I was just I was always kind of partly drawn to the agency side. I would say like way back when I was graduating from my M biotech degree out of the University of Toronto and Mississauga. It was the second year that program was out. I was uh I was a part of that program. And as a part of my internship, I worked at a Biogen located in Mississauga. And as a part of that internship, I kind of got exposed to many different sides of the business, um, marketing being one of them. And that was the the first sort of, hey, I think of all of the things I've done. I think marketing is the place for me. And then once I started working in marketing and working with external agencies, I started to think almost in my head that I kind of feel like one day I'm belong more over there just because of the creativity aspect of it. And I guess the the background for me is, you know, when I was going into university, uh, it was like, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna go into the sciences or am I gonna go into the arts? I was really conflicted with that. Um, my father's a physician, so probably pushed me in the direction of going into the sciences with the intention of, you know, being a doctor at some point, but realized quickly that that wasn't the uh the path for me. And I'd always been kind of struggling in my head with finding that sort of interlude between those two things. Like, is there anything out there that I can do, you know, tickle the the left side of my brain and tickle the right side of my brain at the same time? And and I think I think that seed was kind of just planted early. It was like, I think I think the agency world is kind of where I can meet that crossroads of where those two things happen. But it was just an idea. I I kind of went along, I I worked in sales, I worked in marketing, I spent years uh in uh in pharma. And it wasn't until I was a marketing manager working with creative agencies on a regular basis and just having like an overall frustration of how that relationship was and how I thought it was being managed and how the work was being done. And I don't know. It just some something happened in my head to say, I think things can be done differently in this space. And I'm I'm gonna take a leap and I'm gonna give it a shot and see if I can do something different.

The Client Experience Problem

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Take me back.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Frustrations and what did you what did you think that you could do better?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Like every I think every entrepreneur has a bit of a thesis upon which their business rests. Differentiate it from other agencies that were out there.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I think it was just overall the client experience. So I found myself as a marketing manager, I found myself allocating a very large amount of money to an agency to help me with getting uh all of my all of my projects completed. I found myself spending a lot of time giving feedback on materials. I found myself spending a lot of time fixing copy decks, um, going back and forth, like just spending too much time managing the whole process and managing the projects, way more than than I had time to do it. Like I think, you know, the the development and management of promotional materials is probably 20% of what a brand manager is required to do. And so when you're when you're getting sucked into that world over and over again because this copy deck was wrong or this is incorrect, or you're not getting it. Like, this isn't our strategy. This is our strategy, just that back and forth constantly. And I just kind of envisioned myself in in the other role. I was like, I feel like I just want someone else that understands my brand as much as me, that I can rely on them a little bit more and be a little bit more proactive with moving things along and making sure that these um materials are meeting my strategic goals. And I just don't have the time to like to hand hold as much. Um, and so I kind of just imagine myself in that scenario. Like, if it was me and I was behaving like a brand manager, but on the agency side, how would I do things differently? Um, how would I think about um the projects? How would I, you know, do the work versus delegate the work? How would I push things along? Um, and and that was kind of it. Um,

Choosing Entrepreneurship Over Doubt

SPEAKER_00 6:45

and a lot of people in those early days, you know, I I will say the the hardest part of starting a business uh or the hardest part of business having you know, reflecting in 10 years is probably the decision to do it. Like that that that that struggle that people go through, because I see it and I experienced it myself. People have an idea, they want to become an entrepreneur, they have a business idea, they waffle back and forth, they're constantly debating in their head, should I do this, should I not? You know, it's hard. And you end up asking friends and family and colleagues, like, what do you think of this idea? And what do you think of that? And and what you get back at the end of the day is a lot of uh, you know, the people's own reflections of their own self-doubt, all the reasons why it's not gonna work, all the reasons why it's gonna fail, all the reasons why you shouldn't do it. And you you just gotta get to a point where you're like, enough's enough. Like, I believe in myself. You know, I'm gonna take this shot. If I don't take the shot, I'm always gonna regret it. And I don't, I don't care what the naysayers say, I'm just gonna go ahead and do it. That was the hardest part. Um, and and sort of, you know, getting over that was um was a big piece of it. But but one of the things that people said all the time at the beginning was like, you're crazy if you think you're gonna go start an agency and you've never worked in an agency. Like go go work at an agency, like get some experience, see how they do things. Like, why why start from scratch? And and I felt very strongly against that um suggestion. I felt, you know, I'm a I'm a sort of a believer of first principles thinking. Like there are things that you can't change, and everything else is is is changeable. Like don't make assumptions on how things should happen. Just jump in. You you know, as a brand manager, Dave, what you need to do and what's important. Just focus on that and keep that at the center, and everything else is figure outable, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:40

So there's sort of two sides of that coin, right? One one side is, hey Dave, you know, you're crazy to go off and start a business that you've never experienced from the inside, right? The why don't you go work at an agency? But the other side of that is I heard you very clearly say one of the motivators for starting Maven was I actually don't want to do it like a bunch of these agencies are doing it. It is actually very much about doing it differently. And so therefore, starting with a bit of a clean slate makes strategic sense where you're sort of like, yeah, like I'll come up with my own methodologies and processes to address what I think are some of these fundamental gaps, you know, speed, quality, attention, all the rest of it. So, so was there a uh, you know, you obviously had some conversations with folks who, to your, to your point, brought their own anxieties into those, into those discussions. Was there something that was sort of the moment where you were like, it was a conversation, or maybe somebody, you know, committed that they were going to give you some business? Or, you know, maybe your wife sat down and was like, just do this. So, you know, like what was there, was there a moment where you were like, okay, that's it? Or was it just sort of a slow burn to get to the point where you're like, all right, I'm not having any more conversations? You know, was it a big flash of light?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Great question. And I actually remember the exact moment that it happened. And it's it wasn't anything uh spectacular, like it wasn't a big like aha um in terms of some sort of you know external um environmental factor that happened. I just I think I had just been thinking about it for so long and debating for so long. Um, and and and I will say one of the things that I think was a catalyst was a very close friend of mine at that time was an entrepreneur. Uh, and you know, I could see that how they were spending their time and what they were doing. And so there was there was some positive motivating factor as well. I did have it what it wasn't all you know people on one shoulder saying, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah, you must have had other folks saying, yes, go. This is possible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

100%, 100%. Um, but I think I think things were you know lining up. I was um dating somebody seriously, they were in um going through medical school, so it's like I know this is gonna be a significant time suck. This is a great time to do it because you know my uh my partner doesn't have time for me anyway, right? So they can't get a partner's unavailable, so but the the moment uh I I I don't know. Like I I remember walking back uh in my apartment, like uh down the hallway to go back to my condo, and it was just again in my head. And then I don't know. It was just like honestly, it was as easy as my own voice in my head saying, fuck it, I'm I'm I'm in. I'm gonna do it. Amazing. And it was like it was just that moment where I knew it wasn't about an idea anymore. It just changed in that moment to what is the plan? How am I gonna do this? How can I do this responsibly? And and it just shifted in that in that very in that very second, um, it shifted how I approached it and all of the things that I did over the next, you know, six to twelve months to kind of prepare myself mentally and and everything that I need to do to get ready to jump into the pool, you know. It wasn't as like, I don't know how to swim yet, I'm just gonna jump in and drown. It's okay, I know I'm gonna jump into the pool. What do I need to do to make that happen and and and increase the likelihood that I'm gonna be successful when I finally do that?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

So and so who were some of the early folks that you surrounded yourself with when you when you opened up the agency?

The Early Pitch And First Work

SPEAKER_02 12:40

And what was the early, the early pitch? Like if I if you were in the boardroom and you had a whiteboard marker and you were like, okay, here's the where I think Maven will be different for you, brand X, and why you should choose us. What was that? What was that original kind of value proposition?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

I don't know if you're gonna like the answer, Neil, because it it impacted uh I mean, I mean, I mean, you were running Brightworks at the time, and Brightworks was one of the you know big AOR agencies uh, you know, at uh the companies that I was at. So I apologize if uh my you know approach approach put you guys in the crosshairs. But I mean, I mean, uh honestly, the the idea at the beginning was a lot different than obviously like the the goal at the end of the day was to become an agency of record, but I also wasn't foolish to think that me as a single individual, I was gonna be able to get in and um and be an agency of record. But I also know, you know, again, having been a marketing manager, where are people spending their money? Where where are these agencies of record providing the most valuable or value and where are they providing the least value? And the reality was is that, you know, as you know, how many, I mean, how many projects does every brand produce in a year? It could be anywhere from like 20 to 100 or more. How many of those are renewed year over year? You know, those renewals are simple, tactical, executional updates. You know, you've got a small update from a uh your product monograph, you've got to apply that update. It's simple. Like it's not a it's not a difficult task. Uh, and when you give it to a large shop, you know, they're gonna run it through the same process. They're gonna run it through, it's got to go through these seven layers, it's gonna take this much time, it's gonna cost this much money. And the proposal was simple at the beginning. It was, you know, I know you, you know, person A, you're probably spending this much money on your renewals. You're probably not getting the value out of an AOR that you would like. Give those to me. I will do them in a fraction of the time for a fraction of the cost. And you can use that extra money to give back to your AOR so you can do more of the great stuff that they do. And that was it. Uh, and it started there. Um, I had a few people that were very interested at the beginning because they they could see, like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Why am I wasting my money with this other stuff? And and over time, it just kind of led to building a good reputation, people giving me uh more complicated work. And I just slowly moved up that spectrum from, you know, the simplest, most executional type stuff all the way up the spectrum to where we are now eventually, which is you know, everything that uh you would expect from an agency of record.

Moving Up From Tactical To AOR

SPEAKER_02 15:30

How then over the years were you able to move from kind of one value proposition, which is a little bit incongruous with, and now give us your brand refresh, give us your launch work, like like when somebody knows you as the sort of high velocity, low complexity, high value partner? And cause because it's not just about cost, right? It's it's for sure it's about value. So if someone knows you as that partner, how difficult was it to change people's minds over time that you could also do things that were maybe kind of like up the food chain a little bit? Or was that the result of getting new relationships where that expectation was set from the beginning? Like that's it, it's it's tough to invent a business. It's tough to reinvent a business, it's tough to play, I think, in a couple of different spots in people's minds in terms of how they peg you. Like, how did you manage all of that?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Um I think there's a few elements. So I think firstly, um, I I do think we've done a good job just building and maintaining relationships. I think, you know, our um client set scores have always been really high. And I think overall, our approach and philosophy has always been focus on the clients that you have and do everything that you need to to keep those clients happy. Um, and I say that because I feel like the trend in the industry is the opposite. I feel like the trend in the industry is do everything that you need to to wow them to get the business. And once we have the business, it's we know it's really hard and it's difficult for them to get a new agency. Like we don't need to put as much effort and time into it, into keeping the business. Um, and that's just my own personal feelings. I'm just saying as a as a marketing manager, that's kind of what I felt. So, with a that sort of different approach to say, you know, we're we're we're putting all of our focus on maintaining those relationships, building them over time, and uh and and growing together. I think those relationships as they grew, we just, you know, our our clients just started asking us if we were capable of doing more. And so, so there was one aspect of those clients getting us to do more. And and and, you know, we started to be a lot more proactive in saying, hey, here are some other things that we can do. Can we give you this proposal for your consideration? So there was sort of a proactive uh element to that. Um but you're right, you know, for the for the people uh and the the individuals or brand managers that had heard of Maven but have never worked with Maven, we were painted uh into a bit of a box to say, like, hey, we've we've heard you're kind of the executional team, and that's really not what we need. And so there was a lot of time and effort spent on how do we change the thinking about who we are and what we can deliver and and what do we need to do with our current clients and what do we need to do to sort of market ourselves differently uh with other prospective clients. Uh, and and that was certainly, you know, that was certainly a roadblock that we had to get over. But, you know, I I think with with anything, giving something dedicated focus and being proactive about it, you can you can overcome it. So I think where we are now, that historical feeling is it with it's also very different too when when the company is a single person, like the other flip side of this is Maven's in the early days, 10 years ago, was just me.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

And so it was also the roadblock of do you have capacity to take on more? You know, and convincing people that I have more capacity or hiring more individuals and convincing them that we can take on more. Like it's kind of like what you said at the very beginning, Neil. Like you hit the 10-year mark. It has nothing to do with like the work stops and it not, you know, it's it's not hard anymore. I think with growing, scaling, uh, growing and then eventually scaling a business, you're just sort of getting past milestones and then being um faced with new challenges that you that you have to focus on.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Yeah, well, and and the new challenge uh like also becomes at some point when you become the AOR, what flank of yours becomes exposed to the next Dave and Maven who's saying, Hey, you know, Maven's doing all of this work, but I think I can do this part of the Maven work, you know, more efficiently, just as you had said, yeah, Brainworks is doing all this, but I think that we can take some of this Brainworks work, right? Like there's a you need to be sort of like, you know, looking ahead and looking back all at the same time a little bit as you start to become that agency who's got more of the work and is covering everything from the you know the derivative to the unique.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah. No, I completely agree. And and part partly it's, you know, the the truth and the reality is is that the the people that were your clients in the early days are probably not the same type of clients that you're gonna have in the later days. And um the the individuals that uh were really, really trying to save money uh above all else, you know, while I still believe that Maven uh delivers exceptional value, and and we sort of look at the work in two streams, a strategic and a tactical stream, the tactical stream being how do we redo this or or use a different sort of business model to try to deliver this work more efficiently? The reality is, you know, as you grow as an agency and the demands grow in terms of the types of strategic support you need, and just you know, your your agency gets larger, the number of non-billable resources grows. You know, you've got a CFO, you've got a CEO, you've got all these people that aren't necessarily billing, your costs go up, you've got to charge more, and it's uh it's it's just it's just the teeter totter, right? It's like, you know, you hear from from one end uh procurements telling you, like, hey, you need to be more strategic, and then you're more strategic, and then they say, Hey, you're charging too much now, and you're like, Well, I gotta pay for the people that are delivering the strategy. Like, it's you can't have both, right? So um, so so yeah, that's kind of the um the balance, and uh and and I don't know, I think you know what you're saying. Is absolutely true. I think there's always an opportunity, uh, especially with AI now. Like if I was reflecting on, well, what if I was starting Maven today and it was just me and I had the power of AI, like where would this go and how would things be shaped? I'm sure it would be a lot different.

Scaling Culture And Handling Client Stress

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Are there moments that stick out to you over the last 10 years that have been real kind of learning moments that you know that fall into that category of like hard won knowledge or, you know, wow, I really didn't expect that this would be something that I would need to be doing or dealing with when I imagine starting up an agency? I think that there's a bit of romantic thinking about being an entrepreneur. Uh and the reality isn't always quite as as rosy. What were the moments for you where there was a bit of that, like, wow, I I sort of, you know, maybe, maybe I'm glad I didn't know this thing because uh it might have actually impacted my decision.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, there's a few things that come to mind. Maybe like uh a direct answer to your question and maybe an indirect one. Sure. I'll use the I'll use the indirect one first because um I think when when Maven started, my you know, the only goal really was can I replace my salary and and work from home and be happy and deliver great work? Like it I don't think I had aspirations at the beginning of building, you know, a um a large agency with you know X number of people. That wasn't that wasn't the goal. Like I didn't start there. I started with I just want to do this thing that I like because it makes more sense in terms of things that that like that I'm personally drawn towards, and I'm just gonna do the work. And if I can, you know, if I can replace my salary and like I'm I'm golden, like that's that's all I'm looking for. But once things started rolling and you know, more um opportunities were coming in, and you know, I started hiring people um and trying to figure out okay, now how do I teach these people how to do what I'm doing? And how do I start developing a structure behind it and and all of these things? And I think, you know, again, the indirect answer to your question is I think I just woke up one day and I was like, you know, at the beginning, the only thing that mattered to me was the work that we were doing for the clients. Like it was that underlying goal of like, I'm just trying to do a great job, and I really want people to feel that, and I really want to deliver exceptional value. And then one day I wake up and I say, I have amazing people that I work with. They're smart, um, they're proactive, uh, I can rely on them, I trust them, and I I want to keep them. Like what the, you know, they they say that the great people want careers and not jobs. And it was like, I I gotta make sure that I can give people a career here and you know, let people grow and develop and and retain the people that I have. And I don't know. It was just this this shift in focus of like, I don't have one client. Like I have two clients. My the the clients that we service, obviously, the ones that are that are paying um our salaries, but the people themselves and you know what I can be to them to to help create a work environment that they like to work at, that they feel like they're being um treated well, that they're they have a good work-life balance, that they're getting paid well, that they feel like they're growing and developing. Like it was almost like that, that that kind of gave me the juice to keep going. Cause because you're right, like it is hard and you and you don't you don't really realize how much work it's going to be until you do it. And it's just, it's just the sheer volume that you're not used to. You know, when you're in a when you're not an entrepreneur and you're just doing your nine to five job, you're you're always thinking of it in terms of, you know, I'm clocking in and I'm clocking out. And if I'm working more than that, I'm I'm I'm gonna get burnt out. And, you know, evenings and weekends are for me. And and obviously there's exceptions and people do it. And but but when you're an entrepreneur, it's like it's just complete work-life integration. Like you are constantly thinking about it. It's never not on your mind. And for some people, that this probably would be unbearable, but I think for me, it wasn't. Like I actually loved being involved and caring so much about something that um, you know, I I've I've I have a close friend who's thinking about moving careers right now, and they were asking me how I feel. And and I said to them, I was like, you know what? Um, since the day that I started Maven, I have never not once woken up and not be excited to go to work. And I can't say that for any other job that I've had. There's always been days where I woke up and I'd say, I just don't want to go to work today. Like I'm just, I don't want to do it. I'm too tired. I stayed up too late last night, whatever it is. But regardless of the circumstances now, I always feel energized and I'm always excited to start the day. So that's the indirect. Very long answer to your question. The direct, which is the what didn't I think, uh, or what am I glad that um that I didn't know, um, is probably I misunderstood how in this line of work, how difficult and challenging it can be sometimes to, I want to say this in the nicest way possible, but to manage clients who may be being unreasonable or difficult or just unleashing their own stresses and frustrations onto the agency. And I say that one, because I remember as a marketing manager, obviously upon reflection, I remember how stressful it was. And I remember um how difficult it can be at times. And if, you know, you're you're in charge of so much and uh just accountable for so much when you're in that position. If things aren't going well, especially uh if it's related to promotional materials, it is so easy to turn to your agency and vent on them and um sort of unleash your frustrations. Um and I think as a human or in the position, like I can understand how um why that happens and how it happens again, like there's large amounts of money at risk or at play. Um that there's a lot going on, but but it can be really emotionally difficult on the other end. Like even if you're doing everything that you can, if you're working evenings, if you're working weekends, if you're trying to control everything that you can control, and there are things that are not in your control that are making things worse. I don't know if brand managers always have that perspective. And uh, I think the reality is at the end of the day, the agency kind of takes the brunt of that sometimes. And I think I think it's just emotionally hard. And it's one thing for you as an individual to to understand that and to take it, but it's another thing to have a team of people who are taking sometimes that difficult, uh, those difficult situations and you're coaching them. And you can see it like people care and they love the work that they do, and and they want nothing more than their clients to be happy and satisfied. And and if something doesn't go the way that they wanted, and it's just it just hurts. Like I think there's like you you get you get really uh emotionally tied to the work, I think, more than more than I realized. And and I didn't I didn't see that coming. Like I didn't I didn't know I would have to be prepared for that and and know that I had to like coach people on how to how to manage that and deal with that. And I don't know. I don't know if you've experienced the same thing or if you feel like oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

There's a real when you get to a certain scale that that you're at, I think the job really does become about you know nurturing and supporting and elevating and protecting the people who are on your team because one, that's your core responsibility, and those are the folks who are the primary interface with your clients and who are doing the work. And the better equipped that team is and the happier that team is, the happier your clients are gonna end up being. So it's it is an interesting shift, I think, to go from the Maven N of one being Dave to running a larger organization. I've seen some of your pictures on LinkedIn with your team offsites. Like you have a you have a big staff. Uh, and it really does become about that focus on the staff.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

So looking maybe sort of like today and looking forward, is there a shift or has there been a shift in what clients are that you find that clients are looking for out of their agencies, out of Maven? Are you finding that there's something that you are doing or saying in market that really feels like it's resonating with clients? Like where does it feel like things are right now in terms of what clients are looking for and what Maven's able to provide to them?

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Um again, having started this experiment, not knowing how to do anything, figuring out how to do it in a way that makes sense uh for the client, figuring out how to teach other people, how to use that uh methodology, figuring out how to then scale that methodology, which is different, as you know. You know, it's one thing to bring on one person and teach them one-on-one. It's another thing to bring on 10 people and say, okay, we're gonna teach you how to do this, but you know, it's there, there's more and more people in between you and those people. I think, I mean, it's been 10 years, and I think, at least in my head, the idea that something could be done differently in this space and and would it work? And and is it something that you know uh clients would be happy about? And would it be a way of working that employees would be happy about? Like, I feel like that is the thing I'm most proud of at the end of the day. Like, I think I've satisfied my own curiosity of, you know, is it even possible? I think I do believe that our approach is uh is is uh a bit unique in this space. And based on the feedback that we continue to get internally and externally, I think it's working. So I I don't I don't know if I have uh an answer to your question that's more of like um, you know, how is it changing? I think it's more of to say, you know, the the way that we're approaching things in that, you know, we're we're very hands-on, we're very proactive, we're very much trying to replicate the idea of when you work with Maven, you're basically working with another group of brand managers on your brand. That is the feeling that we are trying to instill. That's what we're hearing from our clients. We're hearing from them that they feel like we are a partner, not a vendor. People are overall generally very happy about the the type of work that we do. And and I think it's starting to spread. Like, you know, as people move from company to company, um, we're getting more and more offers to come in. And and I think since day one, it we've always had more opportunities presented to us than than things that we could actually take on. Like we we still say no to a lot of opportunities. And I know that's crazy from an entrepreneurial perspective or from a scaling perspective, but I think we've tried so hard and for so long to develop a reputation. Um, and and I've seen how quickly reputations in this space can fall apart because you know, they get dollar signs in their eyes and people take on more work than they can scale up in a healthy way to do. I think uh I think we're we're still kind of working that balance and making sure that we can we can sort of grow at a at a healthy rate. So I don't know if that really answers your question, Neil, but that was the first thing that came to mind.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Yeah, like it's there's no there's no right or wrong answer. It's I'm I just like to try to get in your head a little bit in terms of sort of where where are things? So uh, you know, you had mentioned you had brought up AI.

AI Reality Checks And Client Risk

SPEAKER_02 34:28

You sort of can't talk about anything, especially being creative agencies these days, without talking about AI. Um how does AI fit into the mix for you now at Maven? And also like maybe where is it fitting into the mix and and where is it not fitting into the mix? I uh I will say that since starting up my new business, I have found that this sort of like the magical promise of AI efficiency is actually a little bit harder in practice than one might realize. So we are developing a like we're gonna keep this as a human methodology for the foreseeable future. And hey, let's try some AI over here. Where are you guys seeing gains, or where have you, again, maybe said, like, yeah, it's not, it's it's not ready for prime time in in these areas?

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah, it's a good question. And then I mean, the reality in this space is I I think agencies and their use of AI and how to apply it is also very contingent on the clients that they have and what their sort of risk appetite is for AI. Because, you know, there's there's manufacturers that you know are going, I mean, at the the age of AI conference, you know, I think it was GSK that that stood up and they said, look at all the things we're doing with AI, and they're they're fully on board and they're pushing the envelope. And, you know, there's other manufacturers that that are just on the total opposite side where it's it's even hard to have the conversation because I think they're I mean, as you know, pharma has always traditionally been a little uh risk averse with new tech. Like they're just slower to to bring on new tech. And and I think AI, for all the benefits that it that it can bring, I think pharma is also acutely aware of the potential risks that are associated with it. So I think that's one of the things that makes it difficult because you're it could be something as simple as like I'm gonna give a specific simple use case to demonstrate my point, which is you know, one of the things that AI is tremendously good at is transcribing notes. Yeah, I could transcribe this entire conversation, I wouldn't have to write a single note down, I wouldn't have to worry about remembering what it is you mentioned, what I need to do after. Like those are all places where a human needs to, in the pre-AI age, they need to manually type all of that stuff out and they're gonna forget some stuff and they're they're you know, things are gonna fall through the cracks. Whereas with AI, you can just set it and forget it. You can just focus on the conversation that you're having and let the AI capture all that for you. And and it it can save time, which means save money for both the client uh and yourself, uh, and it can just help you provide better value, like make sure that nothing is falling through the cracks. Like who wouldn't want that? But you know, there are some manufacturers, and and I've there's a few that I've spoken to, and and not to say that they don't have a reason for it. Um, there's obviously reasons to be concerned. Um, but you know, some manufacturers just omit the um, or sorry, do not permit the use of any transcription technology. So it's like, okay, well, if we have all of these uh as this one example of this tool that allows us to save time and money for client A, but we can't use it for client B, we got to continue to do things the old way for client B and type everything out manually and having a second person on the call. So, so I think that's one of the challenges is say like there is a lot of opportunity here, but you got to kind of look at it on a client-to-client basis to see like how this fits in. So, so that's I think that's part one. Um, to get back to your question of where it fits in, I think, I think for me in the big picture, it's it's kind of two buckets, right? It's how are how how are agencies using AI to elevate and maybe deliver new campaigns or projects or ideas or services to clients that they wouldn't be able to before. You know, what can you do with AI that would have been um prohibitively expensive in the past or that just weren't possible in the past? Um, simple example could be, you know, using an AI chatbot and developing that so that patients can ask this AI chatbot for answers instead of it, you know, being some other tech. The other side of the equation is what is the agency doing to use AI internally to make its team more efficient, to free up resources so that people can spend time doing higher level strategic work and give people back time. So I think, you know, I think for us, we we look at both of those sort of verticals. And um, we're kind of, I mean, again, that the what we're delivering to clients is very dependent on the client and and their risk for it. But what we're able to do internally and um how can you use AI to, for example, help with the training and development of your team, um, help give people access to higher level knowledge that they wouldn't, you know, have access to otherwise, help them do some of the grunt work that is part of agency life. Um, so again, to give them time back so they can do some of the higher strategic level thinking. I'm very much, I think, on the same page as you that, you know, having been in this world, this agency world for as long as I have, the people are still at the end of the day, it's the it's the relationship with the person that that people are um are signing up for. And and and I don't think in the near future AI is uh there's a risk for AI to replace that. Um, I think if anything, AI is just going to be an accelerator for helping to improve those relationships and and uh improve the outputs that we can do as an agency um for the clients that we have.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

To your point, right? Like you can't even implement, you know, Maven-wide methodologies that leverage AI efficiencies because client A may be thrilled and client B, you know, you may be banned from using those technologies. So it's it's it's it has to be sort of quite bespoke and and a little bit surgical.

Year 11 Focus And CEO Shift

SPEAKER_02 40:53

So as we as we kind of come to the end of the conversation, we've chatted a lot about the last 10 years, talked a little bit about where we are today. As you sort of think about year 11, what are the some of the things that you're most excited about? What are you what are you focused on as we get deeper into 2026 and and year 11 of the agency?

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Well, um I think uh one of the changes recently for us here at Maven was the separation of the CEO and founder role. So my business partner, Chris Rieger, has moved into the CEO role, which means he's managing most of the day-to-day and leaving me in the founder role. So uh sounds like a cliche answer because we just talked about AI, but I feel like I spend most of my time now on AI thinking about where it applies and how to integrate it. Um, so you know, yes, obviously, all those things that we just said in terms of why it's challenging, but I also feel that the writing's on the wall and there are going to be new agencies or incumbent agencies that are gonna do AI really well. And I think it's my goal to make sure that that we're one of those agencies that it's at the forefront of that. Um to try to, you know, again, I'm envisioning the next uh Dave McCarowicz starting another agency, seeing the opportunity with AI right now and and creating a new uh creative agency in this realm, that's a very real possibility and is you know most likely uh already happening. So how I think, you know, it's a different game with when when you're a bigger shop um and things are slower to move than when you're a one-man shop. If you're not very um strategic and very deliberate about how do we keep making progress with this and keep evolving and making sure that we're at the head of the curve, then you know, the last thing you want to do is wake up one day and find out that your entire business model is antiquated, right? And you're just put out of business.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

So it's an interesting year ahead. Like even X of the fact that you're gonna be focused on AI, you know, just personally and trying to figure out kind of how to, if not future-proof, future-ready the business a little bit, even the shift of you know, that CEO role and kind of moving away from some of the operational stuff is is a big, is a big change in how you run the business. So it's also a really big step to be able to do that. So congrats on 10 years, congrats on everything that you know you've achieved and uh excited to hear where you keep going because you've uh uh you've done a great job. And I really appreciate you being on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Yeah, thanks for having me, Neil. I I appreciate being on the show and and you know, a shout out to you. Like you were one of the individuals that I reached out to 10 and a half years ago and said, Hey, I've got an idea. You know, what do you think of this? And I I I spoke a lot about the naysayers, um, but uh you you'd always been a positive encouragement, and and I do. Look at you as uh somebody that's been a bit of a mentor for me and somebody that I've looked up to, and obviously what you've done um with Brightworks when when you were still there. And I'm sure your new venture will be just as, if not more, successful. But uh, but I I still remember that conversation, that coffee chat that we had when I told you the idea and and the advice that you gave me and stuff. And I'd never forgotten about that. And I'm grateful for for the support that you gave me. So thank you.