After Spiritual Abuse, This is How to Heal

What role does storytelling play in trauma recovery? And what happens when the trauma occurs inside the church?

In this episode of Hey Tabi, I sit down with Dr. Ann Maree Goudzwaard—biblical counselor, domestic abuse advocate, and founder of Help[H]er Ministries—to talk about trauma, spiritual abuse, coercive control, and the healing power of telling the truth.

Drawing from her experience interviewing survivors, Dr. Goudzwaard shares why story is not just therapeutic, it’s transformational. We explore how spiritual abuse hides in church culture, why many pastors are undertrained in abuse dynamics, and how churches can respond with wisdom, courage, and compassion.

Connect with Dr. Ann Maree Goudzwaard and Help[H]er Ministries:
🌿 Website: https://helpher.help/
🛍 Shop Resources (including the cool journal devotionals): https://helpher.help/shop/
🎙 Safe to Hope Podcast: https://helpher.help/podcast-2/

At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

📖 Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

Wanna support Hey Tabi? Buy me a coffee here - https://buymeacoffee.com/heytabi

📩 Connect with Tabitha & The Journey and The Process:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com

Subscribe to our YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there

🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this blog post here.

Transcript

Meet Dr. Ann‑Marie And HelpHer

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby. And I have a very precious friend here with me today, and I'm really excited. If you don't know her, you need to know her. This is Dr. Ann-Marie Gabsward, and she is a founder and executive director of Help Her, a nonprofit ministry, committed to producing rich resources, offering comprehensive training, and providing specialized care for women in crisis and Christian organizations. As a help her advocate, she works to ensure that women receive compassionate, informed, and scripturally sound care. Anne-Marie is a biblical counselor that does not suck, just in case you're wondering. Anne-Marie holds a doctor of ministry with a counseling emphasis and is trained in domestic abuse and trauma care. She's an author and a teacher and has served as an expert advisor to the PCA domestic abuse and sexual assault ad interim study committee. In her role as executive director, she's a leader in developing resources and training programs that equip the church to respond wisely and redemptively to women in crisis. Anne-Marie and her husband, Bob, have been married for 42 years. Together they cherish her roles as parents to three adult children, their wonderful spouses, and Gigi and Papa to their 13 precious grandchildren. Like that is such a life goal, is to have that many beautiful grandbabies. That is incredible. And I happen to know your daughters and I adore them. They are also wonderful humans. So, Anne-Marie, welcome to Hey Tabby. Hey Tabby. Thanks for having me with me. It is so good to have you here. I think folks need to start by knowing how you came about creating Helper.

Why Churches Need Female Advocates

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Oh, yeah, that's a great question. You mentioned I was on the PCA study committee about domestic abuse and sexual assault. And while I was on that committee, first of all, I was one of the expert advisors on that committee. And if you can imagine, the other experts were Rachel Dunhalender, Diane Lingberg, and Darby Strickland. And I'm like, so I'm the least of the experts on the committee. But my role was interviewing victims and survivors to help us better understand how to create best practices or what best practices to recommend for the report. So I got a reputation for helping. And sometimes, or at, I guess, one time, I was approached by church leadership in our denomination to help them with a domestic abuse case. The woman was acting as normal as we would think she was she was in a domestic abuse situation. However, that wasn't normal for the church. So they asked me to come alongside and help them. And in doing so, I realized that there's a gap, especially in male-led denominations of a female voice, somebody who can translate for them, but also being abuse-informed, trauma-specialized, etc., all the things so that I can better, or somebody could better help help understand the situation that they need more help with. Anyway, all that to say, I've said help probably 15 times now. So I founded helper to be able to, I guess, more effectively reach the churches that need help and the victims, more importantly, the victims and survivors that need the help, and to even create a space for more advocates to work. So we I am a biblical counselor. Yes, I am trained as a counselor, but I don't counsel anymore. I'm also trained as an advocate. And I can talk about that if you want to, but I work strictly as an advocate and let the counselors do their work. And that's kind of a new place, it's a new position for people who knew we needed advocates in the church. And so right now I'm trying to encourage more women to think about serving in that role. Anyway, so that it was a platform for women to advocate and a platform to find help for, you know, any problems that a woman's having in the church.

Training Advocates And Called To Peace

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I love that. And, you know, I love advocacy. So I am a faith-based advocacy trainer, as you know, but you went through the advocacy program before I had that space and was in that role. So tell me about getting advocacy trained and how that has helped you in the role that you have now.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, I so appreciate that you are participating in the very training that I did as an expert in that training team. I did the Call of the Peace training. Joy Forrest founded Called the Peace. I'm sure everybody in your audience probably knows about that. And right as I was graduating with my master's degree, there were no positions for me as a woman, graduating with MDivs and a specialization in counseling. And so I was looking for my next gig, if you will, and found out that Joy was going to start training with Call of the Beast. So I was in the first class with Dr. Deborah and Joy. Yeah. In the thinking, in my thinking, I thought if I get this training, I could be indispensable for helping in again in the church and in Christian organizations. And so yeah, I I highly recommend it when we're hiring at Helper. We prefer that that's the training that our advocates have taken. It's really comprehensive, as you know, and very, very good.

Scripture, Abuse, And Misused Texts

SPEAKER_00 6:52

It is. I always tell people that it is more intense and more information than almost all of the graduate classes that I took. Like you know, it is really, really well done. And I'm not saying that because I am on the training team and I help with that. I'm saying that I'm on the training team because of that. And because of not only the academic excellence of it and staying abreast of all the research and all of that stuff, which is important, but also the biblical aspect of that, because we also take time to comb the scriptures and to look at all of the places that God talks about his heart toward men and women and his heart toward oppression, which, spoiler alert, he is not a fan. And look at like what does the Bible say about certain things, particularly the scriptures that get twisted, like the scriptures on submission and scriptures on oh God hitting divorce and whatnot, that are almost always taken out of context by a coercive controller. And by almost always, I mean actually always, and also that are not well understood at times by pastors. And that's no shade to pastors. I think that we can oftentimes be brought up and study in an environment that preaches something a certain way. And instead of going and looking for ourselves, we just accept it as, yeah, that must be it, instead of really diving in. And so our invitation is let's dive in. Let's dive in and look and look together at what the Lord says about these things. And that brings us to a much fuller place than I think any other domestic abuse and coercive control training that I have ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah, and just to be fair, I mean, you know, I've done all the training that a pastor would have done with my MDIB and also with the doctorate. And I don't regret it. It's wonderful theological training. But I'm also I'm an indictment to what we don't learn. So I keep saying this 10 years of seminary, I had one class on anthropology. You know, compare that to you as a counselor. How much did you learn about human beings, about methodology, about anything to do with care, caregiving, and pastoring is a caregiving role. So I think the problem isn't the pastor necessarily, the problem might be the training. It might, you know, obviously there's more training needed. Anyway, that's my soapbox for the day.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

I love your soapbox. And I would agree. I mean, I went to a school for graduate school that also had a seminary. And when I would ask around about what counseling classes they got, I mean, they had an entire counseling department that was training people to be counselors. And I was like, oh, maybe one. And it was like, what do you mean one? These are people who are gonna sit in front of other people who are like, please help me with my marriage or my life or this heartbreak. And they get one class, yet they get a bajillion on how to preach. And I'm not saying how to preach the word is irrelevant because James says, be careful if you want to be a teacher, they're held to a higher standard. However, like that's not a sum total of shepherding at all.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

No, and they're spending probably more time, more of their time interacting in those shepherding roles than they are preaching or preparing to preach. So yeah, yeah. Same with my seminaries, both of them. It was one class on counseling. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah. How would you invite, because I think this is a great opportunity. We have pastors that listen to this particular podcast. How would you invite them to consider expanding what they have been trained in to be a better shepherd?

Seminary Gaps In Care And Counseling

SPEAKER_01 12:15

How would I invite them? I mean, immediately what came to mind is one of the first pastors off the first situation, one of the other first pastors I worked with, another domestic abuse case. You know, I just I was just basically coming alongside and educating him about what I did know, what I could know. I didn't know the case personally. I was just helping him with what he was dealing with and his response. At the end of it though, I mean, it was a relationship, is what I'm trying to say. We were just in relationship, working alongside each other for the goal, for the good of this person, people. And at the end of it, he said to me, Amory, what where should I go to school to know all of what you know? And I thought, now there is somebody, there's a humility because he too has an MDiv. And so he again took all the coursework to pastor and preach and preach. Um so anyway, he's getting his doctorate now at one of the southern schools. So that which one of one of the southern schools that has a huge program abuse and trauma and the dynamics that he needs to know. And so, you know, that's just I don't know if that's an invitation or not, but it's just that was exciting to me that that he just wanted uh he wanted firsthand information so that he could do well when it came up again. And it's gonna come up again. So that was very wise of him to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, I think that is the best invitation is how do you want to lead and how do you want to shepherd? And if you want to be able to care well for all of your sheep, not just do a baby dedication, not just do funerals, not just perform weddings, which are all important, those are important things, but they're not the sum total of all that you do. When you have that person in distress sitting in front of you, how do you learn about that? How do you know how to enter in? How do you make sure you're thinking of all the things? And I think I heard Brad Hambrick on a podcast recently talking about the imagination and not having the imagination to look at something outside of what you know as normal. And it's beautiful when a pastor has no understanding of abuse because they've never experienced it and it's never been part of their story and they're good men on their own or good women. I have a lot of women pastors that also listen to this program. And so, you know, if you just don't have the imagination and it seems like, oh, this is just a marriage problem, and you're not listening for those undercurrents and the things that might tip you off to it being so much more than that, then this is an invitation to walk into that space and go, how would I know? And I believe firmly, once you see, you can't unsee. So once you know the dynamics, you start to hear them. And so when people are like, Do you see abuse under every rock? And I'm like, about a third of them, yes. But no, otherwise I don't. Like, I in fact, I love it when I'm like, this is just a difficult marriage. I'm so excited. Like, those are the ones I want to counsel with. I've got methods for that. We're gonna have a great time, my version of a great time. But, you know, we're gonna not have the destruction, but I need to know when I'm hearing something destructive and when I'm seeing patterns that would tell me that. And if I didn't have those eyes, I could do a lot of damage by accident.

Inviting Pastors Into Deeper Learning

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Right. And that is the problem. They are, you know, without those eyes. And yes, I'm accused as well of seeing abuse under every rock, but you know what? I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to be able to see abuse. I've been trained to do so, and that's not a problem, you know. And what better way to like I won't be able to remember the verse right now because my mind is going blank, but just we're supposed to, as believers, we're supposed to discern evil, right? We're supposed to be able to know good from evil, and so there is nothing wrong with seeing abuse because that helps the church, you know, bring those people, those those sinners to repentance, which is one of the things that churches are, you know, there for is to call sinners to repentance. So seeing sin shouldn't be a problem. Seeing abuse should not be a problem, but yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

I agree. And I think when we're in that authentic place and we are able to call a thing a thing, that it actually does speak volumes to those who are watching, to those outside the church who are like, Do you guys even care? You know, or is it just about filling the blank? And I have heard lots of things. You know, churches only care about money, churches only care about the institution, they don't care about actual people. And those are frankly indictments that are sometimes very true. And that's a hard pull to swallow sometimes in the church. We think, oh, people just love the world more than they love God, and therefore that's what they're choosing. Okay, maybe, maybe sometimes, but not always. And sometimes where people are feeling like, I thought I had a home, I thought I had a family, and then I was deeply harmed either by the church itself, you know, because the church itself was toxic and coercively controlling, it was a high control environment, or by their spouse, and then the church sided with a destructive spouse, which I've seen more times than I'd like to count, as have you. Then, you know, people go, if this is God, I don't want him. Right. Yes, yeah. Is that the God that you're talking about to me? I like him. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of beauty in showing the real Jesus, the one who says, I don't like oppression, I hate oppression, as a matter of fact, and who is willing to walk with the brokenhearted and who calls Pharisees to repentance. You know, all of the things he said, all of those harsh things that he said in the New Testament that Jesus said during his time on the earth were A, directed at the Pharisees, going, Come on, guys, come on. That's not what the Torah says. Come on, y'all, and inviting them to do something different. I always tell folks when Jesus was flipping tables in the temple, it wasn't that he just had a holy aneurysm and lost his tacos. It's a moment of saying, A, I'm not going to tolerate shenanigans, and B, this is your wake-up call. How many of those people sitting on their tush with their tables flipped over and doves going every witch away had the moment to go, what just happened? What just happened? And to then take that home and go, you know, honey, I don't know what just happened today, but I have a different perspective, or maybe I need to think this through, or what am I doing? And then they had the opportunity to change and do something different. So tell me about your podcast. It's like podcast inception. This is fun. You have one of my favorite podcasts on the planet, safe to hope. And I love it. The number of times I give episodes to clients as homework is quite high. And to say this, there was this great episode, this is what it talked about. This would be really helpful for you. There's one in particular, I've mentioned it to you before, that I think is the best. Where is God when bad things are happening? And that is season six, episode two, Jesus is my captain. Favorite episode of all time that I've ever heard. Like I listened to it on repeat, cried my eyeballs clean out, and then watched the look it read the transcript, cried my eyeballs out some more, and listened to it some more. And I send that one off as homework a lot to my clients, especially those who've been deeply harmed. What led you to a podcast that is story-based?

Seeing Abuse Versus “Marriage Problems”

Witness, Repentance, And Church Credibility

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Well, again, I'm probably gonna sound boring, but it was that time when I served as an advisor on the PCA study committee. I interviewed over a hundred victims and survivors and learned that's my education. Diane Langberg said that her education was her clients, and I will 100% say that was my education too, even though Call the Peace was excellent. So one of the things that I thought of when I started thinking about the podcast was well, if I learned from hearing stories, then that would be a great, you know, opportunity for our listeners to learn by hearing their stories. But also in listening to the women that I interviewed, each time, and I could feel it like bodily, each time I listened, this overcoming this bearing witness that we talk about, this overcoming feeling of bearing their burden with them and how important that was to be in their presence, just listening. I wasn't asking questions, I wasn't, you know, interrupting, I was just sitting there listening. And then also finding out just how healing that is for somebody who is telling their story. So, you know, maybe you hear, maybe you're out in the audience here and you're in a church leadership role or a counseling role, and you're always hearing people's stories. Well, there's a reason for that. You know, we're processing every time we tell our story, we're healing in some way every time we tell our story, we're making sense of the world in our stories. We're trying to find God in our stories, we're asking the tough questions. There's just so much power in storytelling. And let me just remind you all that the Bible is a book of stories. And so somebody knew how important it would be for people to tell their stories, for other people to hear those stories, and for all of us to put our story into the context of God's story. It's his story, right? History. And so he provides a framework for us to look at our stories. And this is what I'm doing in my counseling with my counselor on a weekly basis. She's helping me frame my situations with God's perspective. You know, we're putting his perspective around it. And that is what scripture is so, so just rich in doing. And scripture's got more, obviously, there's more that it's meant to do, but in the way that God used narrative to meet us as human beings in the need that we have, that we have over and over because circumstances don't go away. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you, I'm almost 63 and they just keep getting worse. You know, having to having to deal with my stories is just it's a constant daily thing. Anyway so just the real value I saw in storytelling. It was another reason that I thought this is a good podcast to think about. But then also Chris Moles was helping me brainstorm through what does this look like practically speaking? And I don't know who came up with the idea of inserting the expert contributors between the stories to help us gain more understanding about the best practices. So our expert contributors, when they are interviewed, they aren't necessarily interacting exactly with our storyteller because there's a whole bunch of reasons that can't happen, but they're talking about a situation that our storyteller has brought up and helping our listeners understand better how what best practices are for that kind of situation. And we've had some really, really complicated situations. The season you're talking about, oh my gosh. Does the church need uh five-year degree on that one? So yeah, even our podcast was probably just touching tip of the iceberg type stuff. But domestic abuse we've dealt with. We don't we talked about foster care, the difficulties with foster care. We we discussed clergy sexual abuse, which is just happening more and more. And then this year, tomorrow, actually, if I don't know when you're gonna air this particular episode, but tomorrow is February 10th, I think. And we'll be Releasing our 26th season, which is on spiritual abuse. And again, it's like, where are we learning about spiritual abuse? In our seminaries, in our schools, in our training, anywhere, where are we learning about spiritual abuse? And because we're talking about the church here, we're, you know, from the church, you and I are in the church and you know, love the church, spiritual abuse has to be learned, it has to be understood, and it has to be dealt with. It absolutely has to be. Amen. So tomorrow our introduction will be with Wade Mullins. I think he's one of the leading voices in that discussion. And then we've got several others that will be coming on in Chuck De Groot. Steven Tracy, and then our storytellers, who are all leaders in their own right, let me say. So some of the voices you may recognize, and some of them use their own name, including me. My story will be told. Part of my story will be told. But yeah, so often we find women in leadership in the church will be some of the most some of the biggest targets for spiritual abuse. So it'll be interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

So that's the Safe to Hope podcast. I am really excited about this coming season, not gonna lie. And it will, this will air a little bit after that launches. So if you're listening to this, go back and listen if you have not already. First of all, you're going to have to subscribe and follow Safe to Hope. 10 out of 10, highly recommend. And then catch up on any episodes if you're just now hearing about it for the first time in this podcast, and you're like, oh, I need to go listen to that. Yes, in fact, you do. Go do that. It would be amazing. And as you were talking about that, I think about the importance of story and how Jesus used stories more than anything else, honestly. Stories and questions were a lot of how he impacted the world. And when we think about the Bible, we do think about it in terms of stories, right? The story of creation, the story of the flood, the story of the fall. And I think about how one of the ways stories become trauma is when you don't have an empathic witness and someone turns their face away or against you. And I think of the Maya Angelou quote all the time there is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

And that is one of the beauties of this, right? So, like, even if we don't personally know the storytellers in the Save to Hope podcast, by listening and engaging with it in our own hearts, we are turning our face toward this person who is telling us their story. And we get to hear your interaction with the storyteller. We get to hear the expert contributions and interaction with the story. And that creates a profound turning toward because I know as I've listened in the past into past seasons, I've heard echoes of my own story in the stories. I know I'm going to hear big echoes of my story in this season because I also am a survivor of spiritual abuse. And so I look forward to that to see it like, oh, I'm not alone. And I think that's one of the beauties of it is even if your story isn't exactly mirroring one of the storytellers, there's something in you that feels it.

Safe To Hope: Why Stories Heal

SPEAKER_01 27:34

100%. Yeah, the one releasing tomorrow, we've had some editing problems with. And so I've had I've had to listen to it multiple times, which is good. That's not a problem. But I heard I heard my circumstances that happened just recently in this story. But I've also heard it in, like you said, domestic abuse, or even the one last year, which was oh my gosh, childhood sexual abuse, ritual abuse, rape, what else? What it was everything trafficking, trafficking, family trafficking, yeah. Anyway, even in her story, and like you said, I think it was the first release in the series last year of 25. Jesus is my captain. Like you said, it's just that counseled me. That episode counsels me to this day. And it's it's an understanding about who God is and who Jesus is personally. I don't think I've ever heard from a church. And that's where that going back to, you know, just hearing from people's stories, how much we hear that we learn from and grow from and benefit from.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Absolutely. I definitely commend it to everybody to listen and and then to engage. Like whether you engage again in your own journal or you engage in your own faith community, these are actually really great episodes. Honestly, I could see a space where, you know, taking the Safe to Hope podcast and sitting down with your small group and saying, let's listen through these together and talk about them and talk about the scriptures and like do that deep dive. Like, I could see that being really formational beautifulness for people.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

That would be my dream. We've talked often in our staff about turning our Saint to Hope podcast into coursework. And, you know, just the show notes, they have recommended books and you know, having interaction with other people about it, whether it's virtual or in person. So that would be that my that would be my dream come true. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

So if you're out there and you're listening, A, again, follow the Safe to Hope podcast. You need to make that happen. Second, if you do start to engage with it like that, shoot the team an email and let them know. Tag them on the socials and say, hey, I am doing this and it has been beneficial or interesting or whatever. Because I do think there is a hunger out there. I see it in so many people to take something deeper and authentic in terms of that. Like I there's a beautiful place for Sunday sermons that are more broad and general, that exegete scripture, hopefully well, ideally well, you know, but then there's that space for like a deeper dive. And doing that deeper dive in community is so vital. One of the things I hear a lot, particularly from trauma survivors, is, you know, this friend that I love that I've known for a long time, they haven't been through these things, or maybe their story isn't quite as intense as someone else's story. And so it feels like we're waiting in the shallow end of the pool, but I need to scuba dive. You know, doing stuff like this can be a way to help teach other people to scuba dive. I'm personally a scuba diver. I am in the deep end of the pond all the time. That's just my life. And probably because I'm a therapist that works with trauma. But for other folks, like how do we invite them into these places? And stories are a great way to do that and to go, what was it like for you hearing this piece of this story? You know, and here's where it lines up with my story or differs from my story, or is completely different than anything I've ever experienced. And talking about it together and just, man, what would God have us to know about him? Because at the end of the day, that's the most important thing, right? Like we can know all these stories, but what does redemption show us about Christ? What does redemption show us about Jesus? What does it show us about his character? And leaning into that, where do these places take us in the throne room?

Expert Contributors And Tough Cases

SPEAKER_01 31:44

No, absolutely. And that's the like tagline, or if you will, for the podcast. We are, as much as I'm thrilled to be witnessing, be to be a witness to these stories, I'm always looking for God. I'm always looking for where he is. You know, if he's if he promised and he did that he would be with me till the close of the age, I want to be looking for him. I want to see where he is. And not just in like my surroundings, but I want to see him in your world, in your how you experience life and how you live. And it's I should have been a sociologist. That's what I should have gone to scroll for. But it just thrills me to hear both a person's story and then hear God in it. It just it's I don't know how to describe it. Somebody else, it's sacred. Somebody else has used that term when I've talked to them before. It's just it's a sacred space. And it's an it's an experiencing of God. Yes. You get that with worship, you get that with sermons, hearing the word preach, but there's an added, you know, element. There's this this thing where we l we listen to each other with curiosity and just genuine wanting to know that person, genuinely wanting to know that person. That's another piece of the image of God in each other. Like yeah, learning that who that image is in that other person. I don't know if that's correct. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah. I love that. I think that is great. And I think that is an art that we are that we are losing if we are not careful. Is, you know, you mentioned it earlier that Diane Langberg wants to know the person in front of her. And the quote I have heard is what makes you you. And I agree. I need to know the person that I'm sitting in front of. I need to know not what I might surmise about them, but who they really are. And that gives me a lot of information on how to love them, you know, in the places where I might need to challenge something, how to challenge them. And again, like Paul says, if I don't speak with love, I am a whole bunch of noise. Like literally, that's what it says. And so we can't speak into another's life until we understand them because we might not be speaking correctly, realistically. Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. Listening. It's a skill. Yes. And I will say, Helper has some other fun stuff. And as we kind of get ready to close out, I'm gonna lean over here because it's sitting next to me. This is one of my favorite things of all time. This is if you can see it, if you're watching the podcast, this is the first of two. There is a second volume now, and this is Advent Through Lamentations. Oh my goodness, it's good. It's so good. And it really speaks to the survivor's heart. Not only is it absolutely beautiful, like y'all did a great job in design, like 10 out of 10, no notes. But it is also, and I like that it's spiral bound because it lays flat, and that's important to me. Was the most important thing to me.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, I believe that's why we get along. Well, equally beautiful is the new one, and it has tabs, like tabby. Oh, there are tabs. I look, man, you're speaking my language. Yeah, no, and this one is remember his benefits. So, yes, both. I mean, I've done that one that you you held up, the remember my affliction. I've gone through it three times now. It's so good. It has impacted me. And just so the audience know, it's not a book, it's a journal, and it's uh a guided way to walk through the scriptures, but in conjunction with your story. And we don't we don't think it's a substitution for good counseling care. We actually ask therapists if they would use it or recommend it that it would go alongside what they're doing with their with their counselee. So but yeah, yeah, we're excited.

New Season On Spiritual Abuse

SPEAKER_00 35:51

And what I like, what I really like about it is it is not minimizing, it is not take two verses and call me in the morning. It is just really embodied goodness that walks with us in our story and points us to the one who heals. And I love it so much. So I don't have the new one yet. I need to get it. It's I like had it in my cart and had it in my cart and didn't hit by yet. It might just show up by you. You just never know. One never knows these things. I I know that like now that I know it has tabs, I'm like salivating a little bit, not gonna lie. Which it says a lot about me. I am certain I'm like, oh, tabs, tabs are great. I was at a conference recently and I was looking at a leader guide for betrayed partners because that's work that we do is work, you know, coming alongside betrayed partners. And I was flipping through the leader guide and I was like, oh, there are tabs. Oh, this is nice. And she was like, You're a woman after my own heart. And I was like, I am, I love a good office supply. I'm not gonna lie about that.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yes, same. Absolutely. I mean, those were that those were the criteria. It's like I've got to be able to fold it over.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

It's just it has to be every Bible study and journal should be wirebound, but with the spirals that don't catch your clothes, which by the way, these are. So you're I'm about to nerd out in a in a big way. So are we all ready? Let's get ready. So there's something about spiral bound like this that it's so helpful because it does not undo itself. I don't know if you've ever had a spiral bound thing that was cheaply bound and it like uncorkscrews itself and then it catches on your shirt, your hair if you're curly haired like me, and that's pickle. And, you know, and it's just obnoxious because you have to keep screwing your notebook back together, but like I will take it because I need things to be able to fold over and be flat. Like that's just it works for my soul. This is not that. It is so securely bound. I have never had anything uncorkscrew itself. I've also been through this one multiple times and I can't wait for the new one. It's so good. But, you know, there are so many like beautiful things about that. Again, and it's illustrated, they're both illustrated beautifully. So from the aesthetics, right? So it's an inviting space. And I don't know about other people, but I sometimes to get myself to do things that are good for me, I need it to be inviting. I need it to invite me in and these two. And so I hope that folks, we will have the links in the show notes as well. Go see them, look at them, order them, you know, order several, give them to others.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

I'm just saying, you know, these are looks too.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yes, there's so many things. These are just my favorite things, I have to say. But if you like go and avail yourself of the beautiful things that helper offers, that it are just meant for your growth and your goodness and your healing. And one of the things I love about you and about the organization as a whole is that it's never spiritually bypassy. You're not gonna minimize someone's harm or pain. You're not going to take two verses and call me in the morning them at all. You're going to sit with them in so much care and compassion and kindness. And I love that so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

I want to.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I mean, that's not scripture, didn't meet me a verse at a time. It was the richness and the the drilling into it and finding out what it you know really, really is trying to tell me or reading it more than once. Yeah, I don't want to do that to somebody else. If it's not gonna help me, why is it gonna help somebody else?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

So right. Absolutely. Well, Anne Marie, it has been so fun to talk with you. I love you to pieces. I'm so glad that you were here. You're and we get to see each other sometime soon. Yes. We do. I get to see Emory a couple times this year, and I'm I'm very excited about it, not gonna lie. I have big hugs. So thank you for joining us this week on Hey Tabby. We will see you here again next time. Remember, everything is in the show notes. And if this is valuable to you, please be sure to like and subscribe and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I, and you can grab it there. Look forward to seeing you next time.