Can Abusive Men Really Change? What Actually Works

Can abusive men really change? Discover how the Men of Peace program helps address coercive control, accountability, and lasting transformation.

#MenOfPeace #DomesticAbuseRecovery #CoerciveControl #ChristianCounseling #HealthyRelationships

Can abusive men truly change?

In this powerful conversation, Tabitha Westbrook is joined by Dr. Chris Moles and Dr. Greg Wilson—leaders in the fields of domestic abuse intervention, coercive control, biblical counseling, and therapist training—to answer one of the most important questions facing churches, counselors, and families today.

Together they unpack the Men of Peace program, explaining why genuine change requires more than information—it requires accountability, community, humility, and repentance. You'll hear why coercive control is so difficult to overcome alone, how group intervention creates lasting transformation, and why both survivors and those who have caused harm need specialized support.

The conversation also explores the relationship between trauma and abusive behavior, the importance of addressing false beliefs, how fathers can begin rebuilding trust with their children, and why churches and counselors need better training to respond wisely to domestic abuse.

Whether you're a therapist, pastor, ministry leader, family member, or someone honestly wrestling with destructive behaviors, this episode offers hope grounded in truth while refusing to minimize the seriousness of abuse.

Resources Mentioned (some links may be affilate links):

📘 Men of Peace Cohort at The Journey and The Process: https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/upcoming-events-groups/men-of-peace/

📘 The Path to Peace Devotional: https://amzn.to/4pn5khc

📘 The Heart of Domestic Abuse by Chris Moles: https://amzn.to/4vTkUD7

📘 When Home Hurts by Greg Wilson: https://amzn.to/4gDhf8k

🎓 PeaceWorks Live Conference: https://www.chrismoles.org/pwl2026

🎓 Certified Coercive Control Recovery Therapist (CCCRT) Training: https://taking-every-thought-captive.teachable.com/p/cccrt

🫂 Transformational Topics Community: https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/upcoming-events-groups/trauma-healing-support-online/

At The Journey and The Process we strive to help you heal. Our therapists are trauma specialists who use evidence-based tools like EMDR, Brainspotting, Somatic Experiencing, and Internal Family Systems to help you heal - mind, soul, and body. Reach out today to start your healing journey. https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/

Join a vibrant community that takes you deeper into topics with a private podcast feed available on your fave podcast platform, helpful tools served right to your inbox, and quarterly Zoom calls to bring it all together! Learn more and join now -  https://thejourneyandtheprocess.com/upcoming-events-groups/trauma-healing-support-online/

 This book is for every Christian woman who has been harmed sexually, whether that happened in childhood, adulthood, or even within your coercive controlling marriage, and you're longing to feel safe in your body again. We talk about the hard stuff, shame, desire, faith, and even questions like, is this sin or is this trauma?

You don't have to untangle it alone. Body & Soul, Healed & Whole is for you. Get a copy here today - https://a.co/d/8Jo3Z4V

👍 If this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share to help others who need this information!

📖 Order Body & Soul, Healed & Whole: An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse, and Coercive Control

Wanna support Hey Tabi? Buy me a coffee here - https://buymeacoffee.com/heytabi

📩 Connect with Tabitha & The Journey and The Process:
💻 Tabitha's Website - www.tabithawestbrook.com
📲 Tabitha's Instagram - www.instagram.com/tabithathecounselor
🎙️ Podcast Homepage - https://heytabi.buzzsprout.com

💻 The Journey & The Process Website - www.thejourneyandtheprocess.com

Subscribe to our YouTube Channel & watch podcast episodes there

🚨 Disclaimer: This podcast is not therapy and is intended for educational purposes only. If you're in crisis or need therapy, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional.

Need to know how to find a great therapist? Read this blog post here.

Transcript

Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not taking two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby. I am super excited to be here. I am here with two of my good friends. You probably know who they are. If you don't, you're about to know who they are. And I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. I'm here with Chris Moles and Greg Wilson. Chris, let's let you say hi.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Greetings, Tabitha. That's like the more proper podcast, isn't it? Greetings, Tabitha.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

I've got to say hey, Tabby.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Hey, hey, hey, Tabby. Uh hey, friends. This is Chris Moles. Uh I'm a pastor and biblical counselor. I work uh in the world of domestic abuse intervention and prevention.

Meet Chris Moles And Greg Wilson

SPEAKER_01 1:58

And uh love Tabby and Greg. So I'm really happy. I'm happy to be anywhere, but I'm especially happy to be back on the Hey Tabby podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

So glad you're here. Greg, tell us about you.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Hey Tabby, and I am Greg Wilson, and I'm a licensed counselor in um Flower Mound, Texas, North Texas uh area, Dallas Fort Worth area. I have a counseling practice there called Soul Care Associates. So we have several counselors and we work in a number of areas of counseling, one of which overlaps with my work with uh Tabby and Chris, which is in the area, of course, of control and domestic abuse. We work with victims and perpetrators both. And um I wrote a book called When Home Hurts a few years back with a guy named Jeremy Pierre that we all love as well. And I um love being with Tabby and I love being with Chris. I have projects going on with both of them, even as we speak. And so yeah, it's always great to uh uh to be here and to talk about things that we all have in common that we all have uh a lot of interest in and passion for.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. And Greg and I are gonna tell you about something that uh we're working on together, but we'll get there in a minute. We're gonna have to stay tuned and not miss out. So if you're a therapist or if you know a therapist, then you definitely want to continue listening. But we're gonna start talking about how do you help perpetrators of abuse change? How do we help coercive controllers stop that? And these are two of the most wise men in that area. Now, can we make anybody do anything? Absolutely not. God can certainly influence some hearts and change some hearts, but we do know from research that there are things that grease the wheels and lay some foundation. And one of those things is the Men of Peace program. So we're gonna talk about

The Problem Of Changing Abusers

SPEAKER_00 4:00

that. I'm a Men of Peace partner at The Journey in the Process. We actually um have partnered up on that and and so we run groups as well. But Chris, you know, you, you, you and Greg, y'all, y'all develop this thing. So like let's talk about it. Why? Why do we want to do this? Why do we want to have men of peace? What's the point?

SPEAKER_02 4:21

I met Chris because um I was doing some work with uh my church um and we were we were needing some help. Um, and I'm a deacon in my church, and so we were needing some help in this area. And Chris was really the only kind of, I mean, I could say the leading, but uh it would it would be even be better just to say he was really the only voice, uh the only male voice that was out there doing this kind of work from a Christian perspective at that time. He had all the right kind of experience. Um, I'll I'll uh I'll say things about him that he might, you know, uh be embarrassed to say about himself, but like uh but maybe not, but uh he was uh doing a lot of of work with churches. He had been a, at that point, uh a domestic violence uh batter intervention, uh interventionist, I guess, uh uh leading batter intervention groups um there in the state of West Virginia and also a pastor. So he had a skill set that I was very interested in as someone who was a counselor and also a deacon in my church, wanting to get help uh from my church because he had the pastoral background and I knew that he had worked with Leslie Vernick and I had a lot of respect for her. Um, and she was really kind of the main female voice from a Christian perspective out there at that point. And so um I reached out to him because I actually wanted to do a training at my church. I ended up bringing Chris and Leslie both to my church to do a training, and that's how Chris and I really, that's how we got to, that's how we met, right? Is that I was talking about our situation, our church. Uh, you were telling me about a couple of other churches that you were working with and what they were doing um in that area. And um, and then I got you and Leslie Vernick to come out um and to teach at our church. And that's how that's how I got to know this uh lovely man, like it was over a decade ago, right? Something like that, around a decade ago, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Around a decade ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Yeah. And you had just written what we affectionately call, I think, the Green Book, uh, the uh um The Heart of Domestic Abuse, which uh is a book that I still think, you know, listeners uh is highly relevant. It's a book that even though it's a few years old, you definitely should get that at this point. Um and um and so I had somehow I'd stumbled across that book, and then I said, I gotta call this guy. And so I just placed a call to the headquarters of Chris Mulls Industries, which is where he's sitting right now. Um, and um, and uh that's that's how that's how our relationship got started. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

You know, Greg, I think that from a from a kind of a Genesis perspective on Men of Peace, I think the Green Book The Heart of Domestic Abuse, um being a uh the first, and I think that's a way I think that's a good way to put it, rather than saying leading voice, it was just it was just there. Right, right. Being the first work on that topic, which is using the gospel to confront and call abusive men to repentance, kind of became the genesis for what I was doing in my personal uh biblical care and coaching. Uh, and and I began working with individual men um from a Christian perspective. Took me a minute, having been a biblical counselor and a group interventionist, took me a minute to recognize I was really missing an opportunity, not bringing my secular training of group facilitation into my biblical counseling world. So after a couple of ideations of um working with perpetrators uh personally, I switched over to group models. Um and that this was kind of crazy because as you know, I was leading groups for years face to face in corrections, and these early groups were being done via a conference call line. So that's how old I am. Uh and then when Zoom came on, when it came on as a platform, I was an early adopter. I'm usually not an early adopter of technology, but I was of Zoom. I was a pre-COVID user organizing my groups. And it was Greg who um really brought to light this scripture to me, Psalm 3737, um, mark the blameless, behold the upright, there's a future for the man of peace. And that's when the concept of what does it look like for these interventions built on the green book, kind of built on experience, what does it look like for them to produce men of peace? And over the years it's just evolved. And when when we decided at Peaceworks, which is the ministry that I lead, uh, Tabby, when we decided to do our first ever event, uh, we actually made it uh an invite only. Uh 50 people were invited to that little room uh at Bible Center Church in Charleston. And Greg and I taught the very first Men of Peace facilitator training. And that was

How Men Of Peace Began

SPEAKER_01 9:31

kind of the genesis of what we have today, which includes uh seven very healthy partners, uh groups in multiple locations, uh over 600 self-paced courses that have been distributed, uh, and groups that I don't even know about. We actually have Men of Peace groups that are running kind of covertly around North America that I'm just finding out about because someone's taking the material um that I produced and the concepts that Greg and I delivered in the training, and they're just doing it. And so it's an interesting time to be a part of Men of Peace. I would say we have gone from kind of a grassroots, what does this look like, I think, Greg, to having to kind of backfill organizationally uh to help implement a growing need that we're seeing, which is more and more pastors, ministry leaders, certainly victims and survivors, and I would say even a greater number of men are self-reflecting and identifying how they need help to move from this I this idea, this concept of coercive control and dominance uh into loving and leading their families well.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Hey, I want to take a quick pause in our episode and tell you about a super helpful tool. We have launched the Transformational Topics Community. This is where we take conversations like the one you're listening to right now, and we actually turn them into life change, a real life change. Inside, you'll get deeper teaching through a private podcast right on your favorite podcast platform. You'll get practical resources that you can actually use served up to your email, and you'll have the space to engage and not just consume. We'll also gather for quarterly Zoom calls so you're not doing this work in isolation. You're supported, guided,

Transformational Topics Community Invite

SPEAKER_00 11:23

and growing alongside others who are on a similar path. Because healing isn't just about understanding your story, it's also about learning how to live differently inside of it. If you are ready for that next step, the link is in the show notes. And we can't wait to welcome you to the community. All right, back to the episode. Absolutely. And you know, I was just thinking as we were, as I was listening to both you and Greg, I must have met you not long after Greg did, because I've known you almost 10 years at this point. And I remember hearing you speak and thinking, thank God, a pastor who actually knows what he's talking about, and walking up to you and saying, Hi, my name is Tabitha, and we're gonna be friends, which is exactly how we became friends. And, you know, just so grateful. But I think about God's providence in that because it wouldn't be, but a few years later that I was sitting across from someone and they revealed that they were a coercive controller to me. And I thought, oh God, I gotta find somebody to send them to because that's not the work that I typically do. And having to like, you know, try to look for somebody and couldn't find anybody that knew what they were doing. And God said, Yes, Tabitha, that's because you're going to be the therapist. You're gonna still do that. And I just remember calling up Chris and saying, Will you help me? Will you please help me? And Chris graciously agreed. And both you and Greg helped me with that case, walking it through and all the things I learned a ton. We also found out that I wasn't half bad at that work, who knew? Um, and and so I think that was my entry into the Men of Peace curriculum and just like compassion, right? So I think it would be good to talk about why this particular curriculum is a bit different than what someone might see out there and why it matters that it's different.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, I think uh I think for me um it's different because I think for a lot of us, and I'll be interested to hear what Greg has to say, I think for a lot of us um coming out of the church background, we tend to see curriculums uh and material as uh entirely informational in that uh Bible study or uh point A to point B type of guide, or um, or something that's going to just give like direction to whatever's next. And what Men of Peace does, it's a little bit different, is we are informational, we are educational, um, but we're also transformational. And that means there's a high level of accountability. That's like this information is only a means by which God is now calling you to embrace transformation that only He has for you. And so I do think Men of Peace as a curriculum, as you call it, and just for the listener to know, um, ever adjusting, ever-changing, um currently uh built on a nearly 30-week model based around the self-paced course uh with logs and with questions and with responses. And uh really the the groups themselves are designed not to be a solely educational experience as far as a teacher teaching, but a group facilitated discussion where clients and participants self-reflect and self-learn um as a as a means of ownership, which is a big part of this. Because I don't think you can really change if you don't take responsibility. So for me, Tabby, I think that's one of the biggest rocks that's different. And maybe for, and you guys can speak to this more than me, I think sometimes for counselors coming out of a therapeutic environment where you tend to work with your clients, uh, this type of work is has an agenda. So you are leading the witness a little bit more, I think, than you are in counseling, which is you're not being deceptive. You're clearly articulating where you're heading. Um but I think you need to balance. I think it's a balance between this isn't a Bible study that just walks guys through principles. This isn't therapy that walks along with someone as they self-discover. This is accountability and targeted education designed to

Why This Curriculum Hits Differently

SPEAKER_01 17:13

pull out a response uh from the individual, either repentance or obstinence.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah, that's right. I would I would just add to that that you know a lot of it came out of this uh, you know, kind of unusual really partnership between a uh pastor, biblical counselor, um, domestic violence interventionist who's mostly been working with criminal populations and this uh Christian counselor, deacon in his church, former pastor, who is mostly working with coercive controlling patterns that have not yet become uh violent to the point of someone getting arrested or you know, whatever. Um, and so that's a that's kind of a unique pairing of our skills. Chris had Duluth training in uh domestic violence intervention. I was familiar with Duluth, but I didn't have the training. Um, and so as we were talking about it, it really became like how would we, if we were going to try to create groups that would be a pairing of what we do that we think would be like that would really get to the heart of domestic abuse, as Chris's book uh says, uh, that would really get to the heart of the matter in this situation, how would we do that? And it would be a pairing of some of the things that I do in um a counseling room with an individual client, um, like um CBT and motivational interviewing and uh you know uh things like that, things that are related to even trauma interventions, because we talk all the time about how uh often trauma trauma is a contributive cause, not the not the ultimate cause, but like a contributor to uh the pattern. And so, like, how would how would we bring what I do together with what he's been doing for so long in a way that would like uh be helpful for um people? And obviously, we don't try to make them counseling groups. We're not doing trauma work with people or anything like that. I would say that there's definitely a CBT element to what we do with the logs. I would definitely say that there's a motivational interviewing element to what we do. Um so again, it is bringing some of those things that you know we've learned from the counseling room. And Chris is not, I mean, Chris has done individual biblical counseling as well, um, you know, for years. So he's not those concepts aren't foreign to him at all either. Uh, but just like the way that we wanted to uh bring those together in kind of a unique way. The logs are a big part of it. The logs and the accountability are a huge part of it. So uh there is a there is a component that is logging incidents that either have happened in the past or that have happened or that are ongoing. Uh incidents of of course of control, violence, abuse, harm, uh manipulation, hurting the other person, whatever language you want to use, um, and and ask asking yourself some really basic questions about what did I want and what would I hope that would come from this situation and what was underlying that and what kinds of false beliefs and patterns were going on there, and like helping people to like think through a particular scenario. Um, and then we talking about those in group is as you know, a big part of it. And then because you can't talk, if you've got a room of six or seven or eight people, you can't do logs with everybody all the time because you wouldn't do any of the educational component of the group. So then having uh an accountability partner or multiple accountability partners and what we call a shepherding team, where that can be fleshed out a little bit more on a weekly basis. So I think for me, those are you guys have both heard me say this a million times,

Logs And Accountability That Expose Control

SPEAKER_02 22:05

but for for me, those are both the heart, the the heartbeat of Metapeace. If you're not doing logs, if you don't have accountability, why are you here? You know, like we're it's it's not you're not gonna get a lot of help.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

The log is an interesting um just for our listeners. So uh logging, what we talk about, is is just seven questions that they ask, uh the guys ask of themselves. And that is a direct correlation to Duluth. So if you are familiar with the Duluth model, that's a concept. Now, what we've done, and Greg was vital, I think, uh mostly in rewording the questions. Greg took the questions and really boiled them down more consistent with what we were wanting to draw out theologically. So for instance, Duluth will talk about feelings, intentions, and beliefs. Uh, our log is really going to ask about functional view, which is like, how are we if if somebody looked at your behavior, how would they describe your relationship with God? Like, what are you really saying about God, yourself, and others through this behavior? Uh and so it's a it's a powerful tool, I would totally agree. But what you can see is all of these elements are utilized, and that's one thing I'll say and then send it back to you, Tabby. Men of peace for the listener is not just a curriculum or a product or a service. In fact, I used to talk about that, and Greg, Greg probably has noticed the shift in my language. I used to talk about the Men of Peace product suite, which is like, what are the products and services that we're offering? I'm now using the term men of peace ecosystem because I actually think men of peace is not just one item on the product list or the product or service itself, but it's the encompassing all of the above, which to Greg's point includes the shepherding team, the accountability, the involvement of the local church, the advice and consent of the victim.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yeah. You know, I I want to hop back a little bit to the trauma element of it, right? It is contributive, not causative, right? There's a lot of people that have been traumatized that do not coercively control other humans, but we do know that it plays a role. I will say men of peace is trauma informed without question. So trauma is not ignored. Um, it's not primary in group, right? We do invite uh the men to engage with a therapist that knows what they're doing and understands coercive control. Um you know, but trauma is not unimportant and completely ignored because we do know that some of these behaviors have been fueled by those things and and are and and it's related. I will say one of the things that I find to be true about Men of Peace is it is invitational and it has a variety of invitations that one can accept or deny or reject or what have you. You know, the first is the devotional, the path to peace, right? So that's in some ways a bit of a let me get my feet wet, start looking at my own heart, you know, let me look at this. It's a 90 day devotional. I commend it highly. I've actually gone through it myself, like and done it. Am I either a Or destructive, no. But you know, there were still questions in there that I was like, man, I really want to wrestle with this a little bit more in my own heart and things like that. And I so I think that like I would honestly commend this to just about everybody, especially men, especially pastors. I would invite pastors into that because even if you're not a destructive person, you're gonna see them as a pastor. Like we know that one in three relationships in the church either have been, are, or will be, you know, caught in domestic abuse. And so you need to know what you're gonna see. And you can start wrestling with the heart issues by walking through this devotional yourself. So to me, that's our entry level, you know, do I want to know a little bit more about this? Like that to me, it feels like that. And then there's a self-paced, you know, um, study group thing curriculum online, whatever it is, um, for lack of better words there, that I think is is an option. And it can be useful if, you know, getting into a group isn't timely or whatnot. I know um both Greg and I have used that in our counseling practices as a go do this first and then come for individual therapy so they can start to understand some things before they're sitting across from us.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

I can tell you from our experience working with guys, and now uh most recently with the the group that we're running at Peaceworks that you guys are very familiar with, one of the things we're finding the self-paced course is most effective when combined with counseling and care or combined with uh an accountability group on site. Um individual just working through it by themselves is much less likely to finish it. And and if I may just take a privilege in saying when when Tabitha brings up the Path to Peace, that's the 90-day devotional. Um I want to guard against the same thing and so be on the lookout. This fall, we're attempting to launch the Path to Peace 90 Day Challenge, which will be um just some added layers of accountability to help you get through day one to day 90.

unknown 27:20

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

So you can at least finish that. Because as Greg can tell you in intervention work, completion has a psychological advantage when it comes to change.

Trauma Informed Without Excuses

SPEAKER_01 27:30

We don't know exactly why, but there's an advantage between uh a large gap advantage between the guy who finishes day 90 and the guy who finishes day 89 and quits. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Absolutely. And then, you know, the in-person or online groups, the full men of peace group that is in a group with facilitators and all of that, I would say that is kind of in in some ways, you know, the the all right, I want to do, I want to give this a try and we're gonna see what happens here. There is something about group work, right? And so when you talk about completion, I'll put it this way, I'll put it, you know, in these kinds of terms. Like imagine doing men's or women's Bible study. You're going and and how likely are you to do any of the homework if you're not gonna sit in a room with other people on a Tuesday night, right? And I and I say Tuesday night because like I in my church life, women's Bible study has always been on Tuesday night. That's just when they apparently do them. So yours may be on a different night, but I'm gonna use Tuesday. But like I'm much more motivated because I know I'm gonna see people, I know I'm gonna, you know, answer questions. If you do something like community Bible study or um uh Bible study fellowship, you know, like you're not even allowed to answer questions if you haven't done your homework in some ways. Um, now do I ascribe to that? I do not, but like, you know, that it gives you this incentive to go, and there's something about hearing someone else's answers and hearing their presentation and seeing how their body responds. And I was talking about um group therapy with a buddy of mine, Matt Winger, who's up at Begin Again Institute, and how powerful that is for addiction. And one of the things I know doing this work is there's a lot of co-occurrence between um addiction, particularly process addiction like sex addiction, and coercive control. Um and so when you're looking at like what works to help people change, it is group work without question. You know, and you can see yourself in someone else and be like, oh, is that how I sound? Oh my gosh, oh, I've done the same thing that feels icky, or you know, like having other guys when you're on maybe a night when you're like, I don't want to enter in, I want to not enter in. In fact, I'd like to avoid entering in and you get called in by one of the other men who're like, dude, you're being really quiet, or like that was a half answer, or like, what did you just say, man? Like, and it's so to me, compassionate and invitational to do that in a group with really well-trained facilitators who are going to help you pull those threads and see something different and give you this amazing opportunity to truly be a man of peace. And I think that is a gift. And I will agree, I will echo that what I've seen be the most effective, and I know Greg and I have talked about this, is when you're in a group and you have a good therapist who knows their stuff, and your partner has a good therapist that knows their stuff and understands coercive control from the betrayed partner perspective, and then you're in a group with good facilitators, like we have seen people radically change their lives.

The Pathways From Devotional To Group

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Not as many as we'd like. So we'd love to invite more of you to do that. Um, you know, if you're like, man, I might be a little destructive, then we would love to see you in a group. But you know, I think there's this every time I work with addicts, and I'll I'll just put it in these terms there's that, well, I don't know what different looks like because they've been away so long, it's so woven into their system, their way of being, even their DNA, that they cannot think of a life outside of it. But when you have a twisted theological understanding, you gotta disentangle that. And to have facilitators and other, you know, group members, your cohort with you to help you disentangle and you're all working together from this place, it is profoundly changing. It has the ability to do quite a lot if you will lean into the process.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

It really does, it really does. Yeah, I um I would just I would just add that um all of us clearly are big believers in the whole uh team approach that Tabby just articulated. I literally was on a consultation call yesterday with someone who was like, you know, yeah, but my you know, my person, you know, that they've rejected, they don't really trust their team. Going back to a trauma-informed perspective, Tabby, and an invitational approach, uh, which I love that language, by the way. Tabby has given us that language of invitational approach. And I I'm really thankful for it because it is important. So I was on a consultation call yesterday with someone who's like, you know, I don't really uh his client was saying, I don't really trust the rest of the team. Uh, I trust you. And, you know, and then he was like, So what do I do? And I'm like, well, you keep working with this person for sure, right? You know, and you hope to like build some trust with them so that you and and you continue to talk up what we're all saying, which is you know, a team approach is great. And, you know, if you can have a team and if that if those team members can be talking to each other even better, that was kind of where the breakdown was, you know, with this uh counselor that I was talking to yesterday. And um, but like if they can't, that doesn't mean that like this material isn't gonna work for you or isn't gonna be helpful. So we are talking about an ideal, but we're also talking about it's an invitational approach and it's a trauma-informed approach. And if you've been through some stuff and you don't trust people and you found somebody that you trust, whether that is Chris Mole, so it's like, well, I trust Chris. So I could start by reading the Path to Peace. Great. Read the Path to Peace, you know. Then maybe I could do the self-paced program. Okay, it's gonna be a little bit more of a stretch because he's gonna ask me to have a shepherding team. I'm not sure if I'm really ready for that, you know. Okay, um, maybe, you know, start out, see if you can try to find some folks. Uh, all of us would argue and have, you know, for this group approach and for having, you know, a team around you and all that, and absolutely it makes a big difference. And so not not an a but or an or an on the other hand here, but just and like if you're someone who's listening and you're not there yet, but you know you need to do some work, then just start in on the work. I have a feeling that like if you honestly before God start in on the work and you start by reading the path to peace, um, or Chris's green book, or you know, whatever. Um, Chris's green book is primarily written for helpers, but like if if that's what ends up in front of you, great, you know, whatever. And then um, and then you start down that road and think, oh, you know, I really do need a group or I really do need something else, then praise the Lord. The Lord has invited you further in to the work that you need to do, and so you need to like take that step.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think there's a scary thing, right? Like it I know most people that start groups sometimes are voluntold by someone close to them, like a pastor or a spouse or a friend. Um, and it's scary, right? You're like, what's gonna happen? What's this gonna be like? And I think every group I've ever facilitated the first night, that is one of the questions I ask. What are you most afraid of? You know, because I want to know, like, what are you coming in with? What's your what's your vibe? What are your fears? You know, and we can help walk through then like what is this actually going to be like? What is this gonna be? Now, look, we're going to say hard things, we're gonna challenge, we're going to invite change, and change is not comfortable. I was actually talking about this yesterday. I did a little Instagram reel on it that you know, the process of healing is sometimes like being pruned like a crate myrtle. And I don't know if you guys know what a crate myrtle is, but those are like trees, you know. I for some people up north, they've never heard of a crate myrtle, but it's like a bushy tree. I know, right? It's so wild to me that other people don't know what these are. But, you know, if you live further north, they're bushy-looking trees that bloom in the summer. But in order for them to be healthy, you have to cut them back almost to a stump. And you look at these things and you're like, is that gonna make it? Is it gonna be okay? But it's actually what the tree needs most is to have all of the junk. They call them sucker branches on the bottom. Um, you have to have all the junk pulled off because it's getting in the way of growth. And so Men of Peace does an excellent job in the groups of helping you pull out that sucker growth that's actually taking from your root system. It is growing things you don't want, it is keeping you from flourishing. And yeah, there might be a pruning of some things that you're like, I'd really kind of hope to keep that. Dang, you know, um, when I'm doing addiction work, we call it the shadow kingdom. Um, like, and you may have to get rid of that, but what you don't realize is on the other side of that, there is goodness and real life, real flourishing, real connection. Right. A lot of times I see destructive individuals leaning into destruction because they're insecure, there's a lot of shame, there's all kinds of stuff going on. And they think this is what I gotta do to get my world to be what I need it to be. Like this is what I gotta do, and like, and this is how it's supposed to work, right? And what they're not realizing is they are missing out on real love, real connection, real flourishing because they don't have a concept of it. And so by helping pull out that sucker growth and get those things out of the way, then we can look at where their roots are really going and do some cultivation so that the fruit that's coming off of that tree really looks like it ought to, and it's healthy and it's vibrant. And I think that that's the end goal of the men of peace, right? It's not an easy journey at all, but it is a good journey.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So uh friend, if you're if you're listening, I'm gonna take a privilege. Um, I'm gonna turn it to the host for a second. If you're listening, there's opportunities for you. If you're feeling this tug, this conviction, if you're thinking, okay, I'm ready to step into uh the men of peace ecosystem and give it a shot. I I I want to honor God. I want my family to be safe. I want to see change in my own life. All of these resources that we talked about are available to you. The Path to Peace Journal is on Amazon. The 90-day challenge will be on menofpeace.org, the self-paced course. The Men of Peace Groups 2027 for peacework start in February at men of peace.org. But if you need a group now, you don't want to wait another six months. Um, I think it would benefit us to talk a little bit about Men of Peace partners. We have some partners in place, the Journey in the Process being one of them. Uh, hey, I'd love for you to sign up for our group at Peace Works, but I do know that for some of you, waiting until February of 2027 uh is not going to be viable. You need an opportunity right now. And the journey in the process has not only an opportunity to fill in the gap with our curriculum, with our uh blessing, with our material, but with trained facilitators that are actually experienced and gifted. They rank right up there with anybody we've ever trained that are ready to step into the gap with you. So, Tabby, I know I just went all host on you, but I do know that we have a waiting list, we have a referral list, and there are men listening right now that need to take the step immediately. What does that look like for the journey in the process? Where can they find that information? And uh when do you think the group could could start if we get enough clients?

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Yeah, so we are enrolling right now. Um our group, we are hoping to start it in August or September. Um, we, you know, provided the enrollment is there, obviously. Um, and it's our facilitators are incredible. So we have two of the best facilitators. Now, I look, I know the other Men of Peace partners and no shade to them. I just love my people and I know how well trained they are. Um, you know, uh we have two folks that have been doing this a long time and are really good at it. They've both been trained by Men of Peace at Peaceworks live events multiple times. In fact, I mean several of us go through it annually because we really honestly, you can never learn enough. You know, I think we should all be lifelong learners no matter what we're doing. And our facilitators are that way. Um, and it has a corresponding spouse's group. So for your partner or spouse, um, that they will also have a group that they can join. So it's a it's a one and done. You get it's a it's a twofer, if you will. And all of our facilitators are very well trained. And and I would love, we would love to have, you know, men come and join us and and really make real change, you know, in their lives and have that place where they can wrestle with some of the hard things and walk through this curriculum with us so that they have the opportunity to be a man of peace. You know, I have to say, like of all the guys I've worked with, I've I've worked with, I don't know how many at this point is a lot. Um, you know, it it's such a joy to see them lay hold of the goodness

Finding A Group Now Through Partners

SPEAKER_00 40:52

and to go, wait a second, maybe what I've been doing isn't gonna get me what I've hoped for.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

And maybe, and maybe honestly, I've hoped little. Right. I think about there's there's a passage in James that it's like, you don't get what you want because you don't even ask. And then when you do ask, you ask for junk, you know? So that's the NTT, that's a new tabby translation of that passage. Um, but like we ask sometimes for junk because we don't know that that we can ask for something good. And God promises us the abundant life and that he will give it to us, and he promises us wisdom when we ask liberally and without reproach, which means a lot of it without being mad at us. And I think that those are things that we want to invite men into is to have something so different, you know, and to really embark on a journey with us, you know, with your brothers, right? Because it's a group. So you get to do this as a cohort and learn together. And I've seen that be so good. In fact, some of the guys that have been in groups that I've facilitated in the past actually still connect with each other. They still, you know, encourage each other. And that's incredible to me. Like that's that's what we want to see. We want to see change, we want to see, you know, flourishing. And that's the goal. So what I think a lot of times guys will think, oh, I'm gonna go in this group for destructive men and you're just gonna nail me to the wall and yell at me. And I'm like, dude, I don't think I've ever even raised my voice. Like, that is not what we do. Um, you know, I don't know, you guys are men. What what would you say to guys who are like on the fence about this? Or to pastors listening who are like, I know three or four guys.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

I would say, uh, I'll just jump in. I would say that uh what I said a minute ago, which is uh we are we are inviting you into a process that is going to improve um your life in in radical ways. Um and so if you are if you're stuck in a in your uh current relationship, if you are have been, have heard it be said of you that you've been mean or hurtful or cruel or destructive or any of those kinds of things, uh, what does it look like to just like take a take a basic step of faith, kind of like I was saying earlier, whether that is picking up Chris's book, whether that is uh going on um menapace.org and looking at you know what is available there, um, I would just encourage you, you know, take that first step. If it's on going to the Journey in the Process website and signing up for the program that the Mena Peace program that you guys are running there, which I know your facilitators there too, and they're great. I mean, we all do because they've come through mine and Chris's training. Uh, but um, you know, like they're fantastic. And so um, yeah, uh, so take a first step. I would also like to say um there's uh I want to make space for um uh the webinar that Chris and I are are are uh working on right now to tell you guys a little bit about that that's coming up and then Tabby also the thing that you and I are are working on for counselors. So can we dive into uh some of that before we before we run out of time here?

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Absolutely. So let's start with the webinar.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Yeah.

unknown 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

So uh Greg and I are gonna be hosting a webinar August 3rd, uh, I believe the date is. It's called Helping Fathers Rebuild, a Gospel-Centered Approach to Repentance and Repair. It's going to be August 3rd uh at 12 Eastern time. Um you can find out more about that at uh Chris Moles.org, I believe, and uh menofpeace.org possibly. Really the the goal here is Greg and I are going to be talking about some Men of Peace principles, but applying it to the concept of fatherhood. You find that a lot of our clients coming through Men of Peace are fathers, and there's a lot of tension about what that means. And then there's also just a lot of language surrounding fatherhood and abuse that might be helpful to destigmatize a little bit so that we can understand that you know your past behavior doesn't have to be your future identity. There can be change that can happen, but it's gonna require the more people that you add to that scenario, the more people that have been harmed by your choices, uh, a little bit more work is gonna be required. So that again, helping fathers rebuild, that's gonna be August 3rd uh at 12 Eastern time. So please uh check out that webinar. It's on all the time.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

And it is at Chris Mulls, I just looked it up. It is at Chris Molles.org. So that's where you're gonna find um that information. And just to add on to that, this really is the conversation that we have all had, all three of us have had this, which is it's like, what about the stinking kids in this situation? You know, like uh what about what about the kids who have been affected? And how can um how can men who have been hurtful to their wives rebuild their relationship with their kids? Uh, because we all know that that's part of it as well. And certainly the big part of it is just, well, being safe for their mom is probably like, well, not probably being safe for their mom is definitely like number one. But then there are going to be some trust trust issues here that, you know, that uh just have to be worked through. And so hopefully we'll um, you know, we'll we'll be able to give some guidance on that. I do think that that would be helpful if you uh have kids and uh you have found yourself um uh in a situation where the kids are even saying they don't trust you. I mean, honestly, sometimes that might be the first one of the first indicators that a husband has. Like if he doesn't take his wife's perspective seriously, which a lot of times in these situations for various reasons they don't, they usually still want to have a pretty good relationship with their kids. And so, like, and if you're noticing that your kids are distant from you and you're not really sure why, maybe this is your first step. Maybe your first step is this webinar, and maybe it's like, well, maybe I haven't been showing up as emotionally, spiritually safe in the home. And that's part of what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

And I will say one of the things I know that I have seen is a lot of the men that come through groups, they didn't have good dads. And so they don't know what it looks like to be a good dad. That's right. And that's right. And they may find themselves saying, I don't want to be like how I grew up, but I don't know how to be different. And I find myself doing the same things and I don't know what to do with that. And look, man, no shame in that. Like, let's do something about it. You know, that can change. You don't have to be resigned to a certain

Webinar On Fathers Rebuilding Trust

SPEAKER_00 47:45

thing just because it's what you know you can learn different. And so I would just invite not only folks to watch that webinar, but then join Men of Peace, man. Like join a group. Like I said, we've got a group coming. And you know, if you're like, I want to be a different kind of dad, then let's do that, man. Let's do that. Like you can. Um if you're a therapist listening, Greg and I have something super, super fun. We're very excited about, our version of fun. Um, it is the Certified Coercive Control Recovery Therapist or the CCCRT. Um, we are able to offer in sponsorship with uh the Journey in the Process and Christian Trauma Healing Network uh continuing education credits for most counselors across the U.S. This will be done by Zoom or in person at the Journey in the Process office in Flower Mound, Texas. We have two modules. Um, mod one is August 13th through the 15th, and mod two is October 22nd through the 24th. These are live trainings, and we are going to teach counselors how to enter in with someone who is on the receiving end of coercive control or someone on the perpetrating end of coercive control. And I think this is one of the things that sets our training apart. First of all, Greg and I are both real well-trained humans on this. I am a you know advocacy trainer, Greg is a better intervention trainer, we're both licensed counselor supervisors. Um, this is the work that we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

Both trauma-informed and trauma trained and all that, all that stuff. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yep. So we we are well equipped to teach this and to teach it in a way that also like is is, I think, holistic. I'm a whole person counselor, so I'm I'm very holistic, mind, body, spirit when I'm working with people. So we are going to not just teach you the overview and the dynamics of domestic abuse and coercive control, but how to get in the room with either someone who is a survivor or someone who is a perpetrator of these things and walk with them to a place of healing. So we're gonna dive into not only like, you know, the basics, but also the therapeutic how-to. What does it look like to do therapy with either one of these populations? God forbid, what happens when a couple comes in and you're like, uh-oh, what do we do now? This is stuff that you do not learn in graduate school and that no other program covers. No other program that I know of covers working with, you know, both populations and what to do in those spaces. And we're gonna talk about neurodivergence. Um, that's a big question that lots of people get. So autism, ADHD, all of those things. At this point, I call it neurospicy. Um, you know, what do we do with the neurospicy amongst us and all of those things? And we're gonna really take that deep dive. Greg, what else would you say about this training?

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Well, one other thing that you haven't mentioned is that between mod one and mod two, and then after mod two, there is gonna be uh consultation and uh opportunity to like, you know, get experience under the supervision of uh one of our trainers that we have. So what are we calling that? What do we call that uh there's a word I'm missing in in what we call it?

SPEAKER_00 50:56

It is called it consultation.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Consultation. Okay, all right. Um so um so there will be that opportunity to like have some live consultation on real cases, again, between module one and module two, and then after module two. So if you're if you're a therapist and you've done like EMDR training, for example, or something like that, you can think of it like that. It's the same type of model. So it's gonna go really deep. I'm really excited about it, as Tabby said. We're excited about it because for the reason that she said at the top of the pod, which is that we just often,

CCCRT Training For Therapists

SPEAKER_02 51:31

the three of us here and other friends that we have that aren't represented on this call, um, look at each other and go, who could I send that person to? I I don't know. I don't know of a person in Virginia or, you know, whatever who's doing that work. Um, and as you know, if we're talking about therapy, um, you know, the the it is state regulated and state licensed. And so, you know, we're hoping to train people. That's why we're doing it virtually. We're hoping to train enough people around the country that we have options for people uh, you know, to send people to. So this will be not only will this be good training that as Tabby said, you did not get this in your master's program. I can promise you, I don't care where you went, I know you didn't get it. Because I don't know of any counselor, I I know of very few counselors who have it. Um and really it's because this kind of training honestly has not existed. So Tabby and I have it because through the School of Hard Knocks and like lots of experience. Like that's how we have it. And so we are hoping to impart something to you guys that has not existed before um that will ultimately, I believe, uh bring you more clients uh because um not only the fact that you have this level of training and a lot of people are looking for it, but people like us are looking for it all the time to send referrals to. I literally, an email came across my screen while we uh were talking here, and I was able to see enough of it that I know what it is, is someone who is reaching out about uh something in another state. They're gonna ask me if I know people in that state. The answer is no. I I mean, I know people in that state, but not people trained in this area who are therapists. And so um, yeah, so uh it's it's a very real, like this is a daily thing that Chris and I and Tabby and several of our other friends uh that we do this work with uh run into and talk to each other about. So please sign up. I think it's gonna, if you're if you're a therapist, and by the way, if you're not a licensed therapist, we're also planning on having a is it all right if I let this cat out of the bag, Tabitha?

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Absolutely, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Uh training for biblical counselors and coaches as well. So for people who are not licensed counselors but want to do this kind of work in a coaching capacity, which is another one of the um types of work that we teach at the Peace Works Live uh conference. So if you want to come to learn more about that, you could what you could do, this would be a great path if you're a biblical counselor or a coach or a pastor who wants to do a little bit more of this this work. Sign up for Peace Works Live in the fall, September 23rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 24th through the 26th. The 24th through the 26th. Um, and um so sign up for Peace Works Live and you will get some kind of ground level training from Chris and I. And then go on and hopefully shortly after that, maybe even at that point, we can announce when we're gonna have uh we'll still be in the middle of we'll be in between mod one and mod two uh for this first training that we're doing for uh licensed Christian therapists at that point. But uh hopefully 2027, I think, if I'm not mistaken, Gabby, we're looking at offering the the thing, the one for uh biblical counselors and coaches. And so you could go to Peaceworks Live, get your feet wet a little bit, learn a little bit more about it, and then sign up for our uh training uh that's gonna be coming up in 2027 on that.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Absolutely. And I will say to therapists, if you think, I understand domestic violence, let me tell you how many practices I personally have trained, and every single one of them, all of them, have said, I did not know this as we were, as I was doing the training. And that was just my overview training. And so you're gonna get two modules that are way more than just the overview that take that deep dive and walk you into how do I walk with people differently. And if you're like, well, I don't think I've seen that in my practice, yes, you have. And once you see, you can't unsee. And so we want to help you see well, we want to help you help well in a way that is is really gonna help you walk with folks who are in these places and help them heal both the victim and the perpetrator. That's our goal. So we're really excited about that. And we did talk about Peace Works Live. So do go to Peace Works Live. If you want to meet Greg, Chris, and I in person, we will all be there. Um and I'm very excited about that. Honestly, like like I pick conferences 95% of the time based on who I get to hug. So this is a good one if you're a hugging individual. If not, I'll wave at you, give you a high five, whatever. But really truly, it's incredible education. There are six tracks this year, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Six tracks. And it if you are considering uh men of peace, the largest concentration of men of peace facilitators on the planet will happen. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

So you can get your questions answered, your very real-world questions kind of answered from people who are like trying still trying to figure this out and still starting groups and things like that. So it's a really good time to jump in.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

It is. Winfield, West Virginia, 20 September 24th through the 26th.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Yep. And it's worth it. So you should get there on the 23rd. Greg was trying to get you there on the 23rd because honestly, it's a beautiful area. You should get yourself a pepperoni roll, a tutor's biscuit, all of those things. Um, and and make sure that you're ready for Peace Works live starting on the 24th. But Chris and Greg, I'm so grateful to be with both of you. I'm grateful that we get to do this work together. I'm grateful that we get to have these front row seats to watching God change the hearts of men that sometimes don't even know they need to change, you know, uh to begin with. And so it's just a joy and a pleasure to be able to do this together.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

Well, it's our pleasure. We we we love each other. Uh so we love you and we love uh I love Chris, and um, we all uh, you know, we all enjoy working together and it's it's really a lot of fun. If you come to any

PeaceWorks Live And Final Links

SPEAKER_02 57:43

of these events, whether you uh join Chris and I on the webinar or go to Peaceworks Live or go to the coercive control training, you will see the deep uh respect and love and friendship that we all uh share. And uh and and that's something that like if you're in if you're doing any element of this work, you want to be around people who um who love and respect and see you, you know, because it's uh it's it's hard work. And so um so yeah, I'm I'm we're glad to be here. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Yeah, absolutely. So I want to thank everybody for joining us on Hey Tabby this week. If you are like, you mentioned something, but I don't know where it is, it's in the show notes. So I will have Chris's books, Greg's book, um, all of that will be linked in there, Men of Peace will be linked in there, The Journey and the Process will be linked in there, Peaceworks Live will be linked in there, the webinar will be linked in there. We will have all the links that you could ever want, hope, and dream for.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

A link for you and a link for you. Exactly. Link for everybody. Everybody, everybody gets a link.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

So if you are a fan of Hey Tabby, first of all, send this episode to somebody that you know that needs to hear it and needs to be a part of it. And please be sure to like and subscribe. If you're on YouTube, liking and subscribing goes a long way to help us to get seen and to get this information in front of people that need it. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please go rate and review. I know it's a whole other step. You got to click stuff. I get it, but it really does help us out. And again, it helps us get it to people that really need it. So thank you guys for joining us this week on Hey Tabby, and we will see you again next time. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H E Y Y T A B I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.