Why Christians Stay Anxious (And How to Finally Find Peace)

Can a Christian love Jesus deeply and still struggle with anxiety?

In this episode of Hey Tabi, licensed trauma therapist Tabitha Westbrook sits down with licensed mental health counselor and author Melissa Fisher to unpack one of the biggest misconceptions in the Church: that anxiety is simply a lack of faith.

Together they explore how trauma affects the nervous system, why healing isn't about "trying harder," and how spiritual formation and practical mental health skills work together to help us experience lasting peace. Melissa shares insights from her book Jesus for the Anxious, discussing breath prayers, mindfulness, embodied faith, self-compassion, and why Jesus consistently meets anxious people with tenderness—not shame.

If you've ever wondered whether your anxiety means you're failing God, this conversation offers biblical hope, practical wisdom, and compassionate encouragement for your healing journey.

Resources Mentioned
📖 Jesus for the Anxious by Melissa Fisher: https://amzn.to/3TmaHkP
🌐 Melissa Fisher Counseling:
https://melissafishercounseling.com

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Transcript

Is Anxiety A Sin?

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Is anxiety a sin? Oh my goodness, that is one of the questions that as a therapist I get all the time. And I will say, no, anxiety is not a sin, but that is only the beginning of this conversation. Stick around for this week's episode of Hey Tabby. Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips. We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith. Nothing is off limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning. I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, but I'm not your trauma therapist. I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being. Our focus here is knowledge and healing. Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever. There is hope. Now, let's get going. I am super excited to be here today. This is a woman that I met, gosh, I want to say maybe like two years ago now, but I am really excited to chat with her. This is Melissa Fisher. She is a licensed mental health counselor in Vancouver, Washington. She works with trauma and anxiety, and she's two decades of experience in Christian youth, women's military, and young adult ministries. That's a lot. She also does personal work in spiritual formation. She's the author of Jesus for the Anxious: Eight Weeks of Practicing Peace to Calm Your Worry and Fear. And it was published by Revel of Baker Publishing Group.

Meet The Therapist And Author

SPEAKER_02 2:17

She and her husband, who is a retired military officer, enjoy traveling with their adult kiddos and hiking in the mountains, who does not love that. And you can find her at MelissaFishercounseling.com. And of course, we will have that in the show notes. So you can find her, Melissa. I'm so excited that you're here. Thanks, Tabitha. I'm so excited to be here with you. I have been following the progression of this book. So we talked, we were connected by our agent, like it feels like a million years ago at this point. Um, and I got to hear about this book in its in its baby book stage, in its infancy. And it is such a delight to see it out in the world now. What has the process been like for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Oh gosh, uh longer than an eternity. Um, as you know, it takes forever to get these things into publication. Um, but really, I think the process started just back in the day of doing therapy and recognizing some really strong needs in the church. And uh and the church meaning the big C church. Um, people are hurting, people are struggling. And so over and over being asked by clients or friends, especially clients, you know, can you put this into a book form? Because my so-and-so needs it and they won't come to therapy or afraid of it or something along those lines, or don't have access to therapy. And well, you and I know we cannot reproduce therapy into a book. There are some things that we can offer. And so people like you and me get to

Why The Church Needs This

SPEAKER_00 3:44

offer those things into the world. And so getting it to publication was interesting, but I'm so grateful that now it's able to reach people and they're able to start learning about their anxiety and and more importantly, how to overcome that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

And it's such a beautifully practical book. I what I love most about it, besides everything, honestly, is that it is like bite-sized. So, you know, I work with a lot of trauma survivors who've been through some things, and reading something super dense and trying to engage with it is really hard. And the way that you have written it is so approachable and so like, okay, here's this little bite, and now I'm gonna like have you engage with this little bite. Was that intentional or did that just kind of happen?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

100%. And and early on, if I had written this 10 years ago earlier on my career, I wouldn't have done that because I wouldn't have known intuitively that that's what people needed. But since you work with trauma, I work with trauma, we know that that prefrontal cortex is just struggling to even be online, let alone do anything productive. And so we're trying to engage it in in really, like you said, bite-sized, simple ways, um, so that they're they don't have to have massive executive functioning or great intellect in order to heal. That shouldn't be a requirement. And it's actually impossible if they're super activated and and their nervous system is out of whack. And so need understanding that I needed to meet them where they are in order to get them where they want to be, and that required putting it into bite-sized pieces.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Hey, I want to take a quick pause in our episode and tell you about a super helpful tool. We have launched the Transformational Topics Community. This is where we take conversations like the one you're listening to right now, and we actually turn them into life change, real life change. Inside, you'll get deeper teaching through a private podcast right on your favorite podcast platform. You'll get practical resources that you can actually use served up to your email, and you'll have the space to engage, not just consume. We'll also gather for quarterly Zoom calls so you're not doing this work in isolation. You're supported,

Transformational Topics Community Invite

SPEAKER_02 6:01

guided, and growing alongside others who are on a similar path. Because healing isn't just about understanding your story, it's also about learning how to live differently inside of it. If you are ready for that next step, the link is in the show notes. And we can't wait to welcome you to the community. All right, back to the episode. I think that is so awesome. It's one of the things that I tell like my interns and my associate counselors all the time is you know, you cannot outpace the nervous system of the person in front of you. And so to put it in these bite-sized pieces, because for those who don't know what the prefrontal cortex is, it is our thinky thinky parts in the front of our brain that also control language and things like that. So when you are super activated, that goes offline and you're like, I got nothing. And so when you have it in this bite-sized chunk, it makes it so much more accessible and the ability to really actually engage with it and not get overwhelmed by the topic itself. And you start off so gently in this

Bite Sized Healing For Trauma Brains

SPEAKER_02 7:01

book. Like it's, you know, you're not like bringing in like the biggest, deepest, like, here, let's dysregulate you and make you feel all the feels right now. You know, you're like, let's talk about this little thing right here.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah, it's, you know, there were times I wanted to get deeper and more broad in the conversation and bring in some theoretical principles because that's where my brain was in those moments. And then, because as you know, being a therapist doesn't let us be immune to life's issues, I would have a day of anxiety or a life crisis would come in. My own executive functioning would be limited, and I'd realize, oh, I can't, I can't even read this right now. It's something I wrote, you know, I'm not able to handle this stuff. And so it just reminded me, oh yeah, I've got to scale back because if I can't even focus on this right now because I'm overwhelmed from something going on in life, how can I expect readers who are just learning this for the first time to be able to capture this? I'm literally writing this for people who have anxiety. So already I'm trying to capture a field of people who who their nervous system's about out of whack, um, if not totally out of whack. And so I have to cater that. I can't assume that they're just coming to this with a calm presence because otherwise, why would they pick up this book? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

And I think that's one of the I love what you said about like if I can't engage with it, how can someone super activated engage with it? Right. Like, and that's the thing for a lot of people who have survived really big traumas or like chronic trauma, right? So trauma that's taken place over time. Reading is actually really difficult for people. And, you know, that's where I think audiobooks have been so helpful for people and things like that. And also taking things at that like smaller, you know, piece by piece level for people so that they can engage with it and start that healing journey and not feel overwhelmed in that process, which is so good. And your book has a ton of practical. So you like set up the, you know, for people who haven't read it and everyone listening, hopefully, is going to go grab a copy. And we will have the link for that in the show notes. But, you know, you set up the concept and then you're you have you invite engagement in very practical ways. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yes. So there is no point in learning about things like anxiety or depression or trauma if it's not going to change us. Um, I really dislike when I read a book and it changes nothing about me or my world or maybe something I do differently. And most especially if we're learning about, you know, self-help or mental health things. So, what I wanted to do is instead of just telling people about it and expecting them to figure it out, is to actually put that as a part of the process of reading the book. So this really isn't a book to read as much as it is a book to do. And so I figured by incorporating that in every single day, having a practice that ends the day's reading, it basically forces us to now do what we've just read. And and over time, it builds the habits that I'm asking them to build. So if you do this for eight weeks, you're already going to have habits in place that I that I'm encouraging you to have because you've been doing them every day.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Absolutely. And there is a good bit of research out there that eight weeks of doing something that is essentially the practice of mindfulness, which this is, right? When we're focusing on a topic and learning to regulate ourselves, that we actually change our neurostructures. And so our brain actually changes and it helps us reduce anxiety, which that is the whole point of your book. So I love that you framed it in an eight-week, you know, you know, eight-week, I don't know what else to call it, but like series, um, rhythm, rhythm, rhythms, yeah, rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

And it is because if and you know, I had someone, I think, tell me, oh, my son read it

The Eight Week Practice Rhythm

SPEAKER_00 10:50

in in like two weeks. I'm like, well, then they didn't they read it, but they didn't do it then because you can't build habits in two weeks. And so I've been telling people, don't read this in two weeks or four weeks or six weeks, or even seven. Read this in eight weeks. First of all, it's not gonna take a lot of time. None of those daily readings are that long. Um, the end's a little bit longer, but by doing that, you're actually doing the practices that are gonna change you. Um, I could care less if you take my information. I care more about somebody doing the work that changes their own demeanor, their own nervous system, their own heart. All of that I find way more important than good, then you know, gathering information.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Absolutely. And I will say this to all the trauma survivors listening because I see this all the time, and you probably do in your practice as well. Like the motivated one that comes in and is like, we're gonna do all the things, and you're like, man, your nervous system is not gonna do all the things. You know, like I love you for that, and I am here for you. I hear the desire for healing. And also, you got to slow down. You gotta slow down. And so to take it in the eight weeks and trust the process is such a good just encouragement for the folks who will grab your book.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Sure. And I think, you know, I don't know about you, but one of the things I had to figure out early on as a therapist was working with mostly trauma and anxiety, and some depression is um depression, you know, you're trying to motivate them. The anxiety people, and if their trauma looks more like anxiety, this works for them too. They're already motivated. They're motivated because they want everything to change. And that, and that makes them rush too too quickly into things. And so we get to be the ones who say, hey, put on the brakes. This is gonna take a little longer than you want it to. But at the very least, they're motivated, which I appreciate. And so it's just about slowing that process down for them. And like you just said, helping them to appreciate that that process actually is valuable in and of itself. That's where that work is done.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

And anxiety is kind of a liar, right? Anxiety is like, we have to do it now, we have to fix it now, we had to fix it yesterday. Oh my goodness, right? And so to like slow it down, actually, like it's uncomfortable. We call it edge work, right? Like we're kind of hitting the edges of our comfort zone and feeling around them a bit. And so it does make you engage that a little bit to slow yourself down and to not read it in like a week or a day or whatever. Um, but to really engage with it and to sit with it and learn how to savor that. And I know for folks who've been through a lot, like busyness can feel safer than you know, taking those moments of savoring. Uh, but this book is such a good invitation to savor.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yeah, it kind of forces you out of that busyness mentality, at least for 10 or 15 minutes a day.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Right. And that's really like some people might think that's not enough. We need to do more, which also I have questions about who first said that to you and where you heard that in your life and things like that. Um, you know, but like that yeah, the research is 10 minutes a day like that will change your neurology. And so, you know, if we're building new neural pathways and that's what it takes, then we can give people confidence in that slowing down, that that's actually really the work itself.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, I think you know, so much about our culture is what causes us to not believe that that that type of time and start can have such a big impact. Um, and as we know, the world has become more fast-paced with every moment that passes by. And so it feels like we're actually missing out on things that we could benefit from by taking time away, that even the 10 minutes a day, when in reality, like you just said, or the research shows that that 10 minutes away provides us the um the foundation and the peace in order to move through the other 23 hours and 50 minutes a day. Um, and that is modeled by Jesus, right? He models that very well for us in taking that time away and showing us that that's that's the touchstone point for him so that he can go out and do his ministry. Our touchstone points are being able to find those moments of rest with Jesus, you know, seeking that um space with him so that it can feed into the rest of our days.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah, absolutely. And this is a really embodied book. One of the things that I noticed as I was working through it, because I we we're doing this interview now because I actually wanted to work through the book first and you know, have like an actual intelligent conversation about it and all. Um, but it's very embodied. So you're engaging the body, you have breath prayers in there. I love a good breath prayer. Oh my gosh. So tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

What what made that important for you? I I love breath prayers as well. And it's funny because I never do call them breath prayers in the book. Um, I and I don't know why. That wasn't intentional. It wasn't until after we published that I went, oh wow, I never even called them that. But I think it's just more natural to how I walk with Jesus. And I didn't realize I was doing breath prayers for many years. And I I think for me, it was helping, especially Christians, to see that that working on anxiety or anything mental health related and what and working on your faith can't be separated. It's not that they could be together, it's that they have to be, they have to coincide. To to do faith work, to engage with Jesus requires emotional engagement, right? Because otherwise we're petting up an emotional

Breath Prayer And Embodied Faith

SPEAKER_00 17:41

wall, which means we're um avoiding vulnerability and therefore, you know, it's usually shame-based, right? We're putting up that emotional wall to the shame, even if the shame is based on um untruths, right? Based on lies. But regardless, that lack of emotional connection causes us to then not deepen our faith. And so whether we're talking about depression, anxiety, trauma, you know, OCD, any of the other mental health issues that we've labeled, it all requires engaging with Jesus as we do that work because we cannot go deeper with Jesus if we refuse to address the emotional state of who we are. And at some point, a lack of working through doing that emotional work will stymie our faith process. We won't move beyond where we're willing to go emotionally with him.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Absolutely. And also, this isn't spiritual bypassing, right? So, like that's another thing that I noticed in your book. And it's always a risk when you are looking at books that engage the Christian faith, right? Like we can be super just the industry itself, sometimes, like in the Christian book industry, can sort of be like, just slap a Bible verse on it. It'll be fine. And that's not what you do. You're bringing not only good neuroscience to it, but also a very robust understanding of God and his compassion and his mercy and the hard world that we live in and all of those things. And I think that is such a huge and valuable thing. So when we're talking about engaging Jesus, it's not take two verses and call me in the morning at all. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, I think, and I think that comes from understanding like God is God, whether or not he ever wrote the Bible. Right. And so, and Jesus came and died for us and is our savior, whether or not God ever wrote the Bible and wrote about him. Now, obviously, God wrote the Bible for good purpose and and we are to use it. And those of us who have access to it and the ability to read, we should do all of those things. And so don't stop doing that. But understanding this bigger picture of he exists outside this word that he created. This creative word does not define him, it describes him, but he is so much bigger than the words on the pages that we see. And once we can kind of branch outside of that idea, we start to realize that um there's so much about how he works and interacts with the world that um that a verse can describe and can point to, but at the end of the day, even the Bible points to Jesus. Um, and and I'm forgetting where in the New Testament, I want to say it's Romans, where he he talks about, um, I think it's Paul that talks about these um, you're distracted by the words essentially. Like don't let the Bible be the goal. It's not the idol that we're looking for. Um, Jesus is still, the savior is still the savior. And so, and that is not a quote by any means. This is me describing it and realizing I should have written the verse the verse down. But regardless, understanding that as we're moving through this, if we're just throwing, slapping Bible verses on something, we we might, not we are, but we might be missing something. We might be neglecting someone's emotional state by throwing a Bible verse at something because we can't handle their emotional state.

Open Hands Safety In The Body

SPEAKER_00 21:57

And so whether we're guiding this person or ourselves in that moment, it needs to be, hey, let's just go to Jesus with this. Let's actually sit in the silence of the Holy Spirit and recognize he has power that that exists, whether we can see that power right here or not. And so that's some of that breath prayer work, that's some of that just sitting alone work. I think I, oh, I do open hands in the book. All of that. Essentially, I mean, if you think about what we're doing to open hands, we are acknowledging I have nothing. I'm coming to you in this moment. I might walk away in one minute, five minutes, however long I sit here, if I can last more than five minutes, and walk away with the same empty hands. And yet that five minutes was still valuable. That's crazy. But that's the God that we serve.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

And there's something else about, you know, open hands that happens neurologically. So one of the things that we know about that is it tells our body we are safe and that we can have those open hands. And it actually helps some of our defenses stand down. And it's something I've done with clients for years and years when they're struggling, like, I feel like I can't push past this thing, I can't do this, whatever. And it's like, well, let's just open up your hands and let's feel how our body shifts. And I think that is one of the things that Christians in at least in the West in this day and age tend to minimize the importance of is their bodies, right? Like Jesus came in a body, we are embodied, like he lives in our body, right? We are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. That's what scripture tells us. I think it's in Romans that says, you know, the power of Christ through the Holy Spirit lives in you. The power of Christ that raised the power that raised Christ from the dead lives in you. And, you know, so when we are engaging our bodies that are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, like God does stuff with that. And that's huge. And I think that to minimize that minimizes the goodness that God has given us.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Yeah, and I think you're actually talking about two different things there that we as post-Jesus believers, which I guess that are all believers, but um, that we take for granted. So there's the body that that God gave us at the very beginning. I recently heard someone talk about it as the skin is the very first boundary God gave us. Right. And so, and so that's that was for all human, all of humanity, regardless of believers. And then with believers, I know I take for granted the fact that when I sit and I pray, whether my eyes are open or closed, they're usually closed, and I immediately engage with God and with the Holy Spirit, that that didn't exist for many years. That's a gift that I get to have because I'm this post-Jesus rising from the dead believer that has access to God in a way that didn't exist for thousands of years. And so this embodiment of the Holy Spirit, that that wasn't a given for people. And so the fact that I get to access his that his embodiment of me is a thing, first of all. And then, of course, that I have this body, this flesh that interacts with his embodiment. Those are two pieces about me that are super powerful and that I can take insights from, right? To then impact um my own emotions in that moment, my own demeanor in that moment, and of course, eventually take that out into the world. And so by recognizing, oh gosh, by opening my hands, I'm putting my brain in a posture, right? A posture of surrender, a posture of safety, which is super helpful neuro neur uh neurologically. But also my embodiment of the Holy Spirit engages with something so far outside of these two hands that I can't even touch. And yeah, I am touching. I can't do it on my own volition and yet I get to tap into but that's that's powerful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah. And I think it's like it it's almost that liminal space where we're kind of between the now and the not yet and we're in that space between what we can see and what we can't see but is still equally real. And that's that can be such a tough place to like lay hold of when we're feeling really anxious. It can be really hard to feel God's presence with us.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Yes, which is more than more important like you said, you know, putting your body in a posture of recognizing okay if I do this it's a reminder that someone else is with me. I know for some people when they spend their silence with with the Holy Spirit or with God they'll light a candle. The candle is not the Holy Spirit but it's their reminder right that there's a flame here that the Holy Spirit that God is sitting there with them in that actual moment. And so for them it's their physical reminder of that. For me for whatever reason open hands does that for me. Like the moment I open my hands I'm like oh yeah I'm sitting here in my office right here on this day while I'm talking to Tapitha and somehow God is with me. Like you know that is and so even just that moment right there of me saying that out loud puts my body and my spirit and my emotions in a more peaceful place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

And I think like that's the beauty of it right we build our own toolkits right so for some people it will be open hands. You know for some people it will also be the candle or it will be a sunrise or you know something that speaks volumes or it could be all of those things, right? Because you know different days need different things at times. And so you know as you walk through a practice like this, you learn what are my go-tos? What are my in the moment this really helps or these things are the most helpful for me. And you get to build out your own toolkit that way.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah and that's why I built it that way it was really hard to decide you know how much how many options do I give people without overwhelming them and so in that first week giving different breathing tools and then giving different mindful tools and then giving different posture tools um it, you know, I don't want to overwhelm people while they're trying to overcome anxiety. But at the same time we know that personalities and histories really impact a person's ability to handle things. And so I'll change the story a bit but I had a client who was afraid of a particular color. That's not exactly it but we're going to use that example. And so this particular color I had to avoid in a lot of my communication with them or my handing them of things to make sure because that was for whatever reason their fear was attached to that color. And so there were certain tools that I

Build A Toolkit That Fits You

SPEAKER_00 28:26

had that I had to shift because of that fear right there. And so you know just making sure even if it's not a trauma-based fear there are just some preferences. So especially in breathing tools I've noticed some people absolutely love box breathing and there are others are like that is the dumbest thing ever. I need something else. So providing enough you know resources that then they can take that toolkit um you know doesn't have to be the one in the book. We all a lot of us therapists use toolkits, you know, and being able to like you said build it um and I try to get people to build it across the different spheres of you know physical, mental, um relational so that they're really addressing all those areas of life as they're overcoming this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

And you know I just the ex I love the example that you used because so many people would vilify that person. So if it is like oh man this color is really activating or triggering for me. And then people be like well I mean just you know hand them the color make them walk through it. And it's like bro that is not how God addresses us. It is his kindness right and so like I think that you know we can even do that to ourselves where we're like I shouldn't feel this and it's like but you do feel this you do. And so I can work with that or I can make your life worse. Like I'd rather work with it frankly right over time we may deal with the traumatic experience or whatever caused that. You know and is is the world going to end if you can't have the a certain color around you no it's not but I can be caring and kind for you in that. And also then that helps your nervous system when you give that to yourself and you give yourself that self-compassion it helps your nervous system go, oh okay we're safe here and we're not broken. And it also keeps the enemy from having a foothold because he's going to whisper in your ear, you're right, you're just a hot mess. I mean like I don't understand why you can't have the color fill in the blank around you. I mean like you know and so we can kind of cut that off at the pass through self-compassion and really orient ourselves to God differently.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Well yeah because what we're talking about is you know it's easy for us to add shame to something that isn't particularly shameful. So we often do that with people like why don't you like the color orange? What does that make you afraid or or red or whatever color you know and so I think to step back and recognize in this moment it doesn't actually matter. Like right now me shaming them for their lack their fear of a particular color does not actually help them at all. It's just because I'm annoyed by it. And so being able to offer that compassion and grace um gives them the space to calm down that nervous system. Like you said down the road we may be able to direct to address that. But like one of my earlier supervisors said people don't change until they are accepted exactly as they are. And so that's a part of that acceptance is early on recognizing that I'm not justifying the things they're doing by accepting that this is where they are right now.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

I'm just acknowledging this is where you are doesn't that sound like Jesus right because he meets us where we are he's not like first of all you have to do X, Y, Z before you can come to me. Like I'm just gonna need you to do that. And if you can't then I guess you're out of luck with me here person. Like that's so not how we are approached. And yet we approach others that way often and we approach ourselves that way. And I think you know I can avoid horrible other humans. I can't avoid myself and if I'm being the horrible human to myself that is not good.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yeah that can be a lot harder for some of us is that we just get in our own heads and we let those thoughts and those those negative beliefs or schemas spiral and spiral and it's to our own demise at times.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Absolutely I always tell folks that like you know that is not a suspiciously curved path it's a spiral and the only place it leads is a ditch. So you know but we all do that even as therapists like I can know all the things and on a bad day I can forget that I know all the things right and God still meets me there.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I so wish that having you know a degree and insights and experience in doing this work that it made me immune to all of life's issues and I never had to have anxiety again. Bad news people that's not true. And so even with something like this, you know, working through anxiety working through anxiety and overcoming anxiety does not mean you will never have anxiety again because the world is crazy. It means that you will experience it differently than you had before and you will not have the tools to um to move through it differently than you did before.

Self Compassion Over Shame Spirals

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And usually it's faster and with less panic and more understanding a lowered level of activation than it has happened before.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yeah. And when you experience it, a lot of times we will shame ourselves like I can't believe I'm here again, you know, fill in the blank. But the more I think that you engage with this, the more you practice it, the more that you're able to go, of course I'm here again because the world is hard and I have tools now.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

And so the shame doesn't get to eat your lunch exactly it's kind of like oh hi anxiety uh yeah we're back okay so this is what's happening. So life is kind of crazy right now. Um we're just gonna do some things okay and calm you down and then I'd like you to go back to where you were in that closet.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Absolutely like it's gonna be fine. We're gonna be great. And in some ways like you know talking to anxiety as if it is another part can be really helpful. So on this podcast we have talked about parts work before no that does not mean you are other people um but what it means is that I can take this aspect of myself this part of me that might have been formed through a traumatic experience when I was younger or at some point in my life and the one that's really scared that is God going to show up? Like is it going to be different this time? And I can give that part of me compassion and say, hey the adult part of me that's done a lot of healing can absolutely walk through this with the Lord and we're gonna be okay. And then you have these experiences, I call them rocks of remembrance, where like I can point to these places where God met me in it.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

I love that yeah yeah those touch points from your past where you can remember very quickly and very easily okay God met me here he's gonna meet me here too God met me there back there and I've recognized that whether I recognized it in a moment or had to learn that later on but my my current and my future self can touch back to theirs. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah. And you know the more we practice this right the more it becomes proficient, not perfect. Right. So you know in those moments when we are feeling anxiety again and we're like oh no you know we might have a little momentary freakout. We might have a little Menti B in there for a second and then we're gonna reset because it's like muscle memory. I tell clients and people this all the time there is a particular breathing exercise that I do that's a paced breathing exercise. And even telling you now that I do this, my body is starting to regulate because I have done it so many times in client sessions with my clients I've done it on my own so many times that my brain and body are like as soon as we start talking about it, everything's just gonna start to settle down. And that's a wild thing because I've built that neural pathway it didn't happen overnight. It wasn't fast. Like it took some time but I know it's there right and so now it's almost a delight when I'm like oh I'm gonna think about doing this and then start it and my body's like amazing let's do that together. It sounds like fun and start to regulate itself and it's like oh yeah this does work.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Isn't that so cool that you can build in this habit that just comes so naturally down the road. And you're right because it's important that you're doing it you know you've done it enough times with clients you've done it enough times in other situations where you probably weren't at a level 10 panic you know um so that when you start to get to the get close to that it comes more readily and and that's why you know I I imagine you do something similar. I ask my clients to do all of their coping skills when they're calm and then when they're mildly activated you know when they're getting up from bed and then going to bed um because they won't remember them in in those high state times when they're not doing them in the low state times. And so for me I I think I put this example in the book but I witnessed a motorcycle accident several years ago um I was still living in Las Vegas at the time and and I was I stopped with and spoke with the authorities and went to work after that. But I kept visualizing it over and over again my brain could not let go of quite honestly it was an image of a body flying through the air because that's what I saw. And so that's what my brain kept repeating over and over as I was driving the work. I'm like I can't do this and it's causing me to panic. And so I went straight into my five senses mindfulness because that's what I had been teaching clients for so many years. And there's no way I could have gone straight into that had I not done it so many times just you know in for me you know low stakes moments of just teaching clients. And so for me to go my hands are on the wheel I can see that it's great. I can see my radio I can hear my radio I'm turning it off because I can't handle the noise right now. I can smell my coffee

Practice Skills Before Crisis Hits

SPEAKER_00 37:45

I'm gonna pick my water instead um I don't need caffeine right now I can see the car in front of me and this is a license plate because the body flew through the air again in my brain at that moment. I'm gonna get more specific this is the exit I'm taking I see the white line around the exit all of those things were readily available to me because I had been doing them for so long in those low stakes moments. And so it sounds like that's what you've done too is that breathing technique even as you talk about it. As you just mentioned yours I have one too and I was like oh yeah I've got mine too and it just came right in because we've been doing them. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

And it it feels almost silly like you know people are going to go, yes, this is y'all's job. You do this all day every day six times on Sundays whatever. Right. And yes, yes it is in fact my job it is forced practice for sure. However I've had clients that have chosen to engage in it and to practice it like sometimes with their kids. These are all great things to teach your children. You know, sometimes with friends I've had friends like get together and do regulation groups, you know, where they're like let's practice these together which I think that is so good because healing happens in community. And you know so all of these different things and then just setting a timer on your phone and saying you know what I'm gonna do this today. It's sort of like exercising, right? The heaviest door in the world is the one to the gym that you open, right? Like it's not even the waste that you lift. And so like when you can say I know that I don't want to do this today, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna give myself 10 minutes. I'm gonna do this thing that I know will be helpful down the line then you've done that and you're also opening yourself up to that space with God you know to say Lord I know you've given us this fearfully wonderfully made body and that these are tools that you give us to help us in the hard moments and you know we're gonna have hard moments. You know the Psalms say you know what we're made of, you know, and you know that it's scary to be us. And so these are tools that I have that you have given me and even though I don't particularly feel like it today because I'm not real anxious, I'm gonna do it anyway. And then when you do have those moments where you do have to like pull the skill out, it's just right there. It's sort of at the top of your toolkit.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Yeah and I think what it does is it it creates for a much better better moment than it would have been because you've built up that muscle memory. And so similar to like you were saying going to the gym, the first few times you go to the gym you feel awful afterwards. You're like, but this I do not feel better. This is no way this is helping me. And on day two you tried lifting a desk and you pulled throughout your back and but then after you've been going to the gym for a while, you know, all of a sudden a few months later you know a friend asks you to move them and you lift the same heaviness of a desk and you're like oh this is kind of I can totally move this desk. I feel pretty good. You know it's the same thing with our emotional skills of like oh that actually wasn't so bad. And now I don't feel like I'm gonna have a panic attack after this really, you know, a stressful day. It makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Right. And you know I think we sometimes don't see the benefit till we look in the rear view. Yeah, because it's not like big sweeping changes. I think as Christians we like the stories of the big sweeping change where God came in and delivered us from anxiety completely or whatever. And those are always the stories that make it to the stage at church. And I think it's a disservice. I would love some people up there in the messy middle you know who are saying like I am just muddling it through the day and like trying to like do this thing all the time and some days it's great and some days it's not like that's my version of a great testimony like tell me the real real you know and so I think like it really is when we go where was I five years ago and where am I today that we see that difference. We see the fruit of that. You know, I think it's in Galatians it says don't do weary, don't grow weary of doing good for in due time you will reap the harvest. And I hold on to that verse in those frustrating moments when I'm like am I going to reap the harvest? Is it going to come?

Progress Shows Up In Rearview

SPEAKER_02 41:38

You know and to then go, okay, but where can I look back in my own story and see those places where God has grown me and he has met me and I'm not the same as I was and all of that. And so sometimes it really is in the rear view mirror that we see these things. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Yeah I think you know you know a client will come in and they've had this really stressful or life crisis come up right because it's not like therapy is without its own crisis he's in the middle of it. And there's that freak out of like oh my gosh this happened I can't believe I'm so anxious about it. I thought we did all this work and now I feel like I've taken eight steps back and then I asked the question how would you have handled this a year ago before you started seeing me right and then they do that look back and they say oh never mind I would have called you last night in a panic and you wouldn't have answered because you don't answer your phone at night and then I would have even had a more bigger panic attack. I probably would have ended up in the ER and we'd be having this conversation over the phone right now. Right. And so that look back is so important because then people recognize oh yeah actually I have grown a lot. I handled that way better than I thought of and actually the stress I felt was probably normal because that was a really stressful situation. I said yeah I think I would have handled it very fairly similarly you did all the things I would have hoped you would have done and and here you are sitting in my office talking about it and not crying you know and not you know stopping uncontrollably uncontrollably and not able to get a ward out because of all of the anxiety. You were able to tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

It's a sign of progress yeah and I think you know again like giving ourselves that grace with the signs of progress right again like we don't like if I were to run a marathon today I would die. First of all it's like 116 degrees where I'm at as we record this I would not be okay and I've I don't run marathons. So like if I were to just try to run 26 plus miles right now it's not gonna go well. But if I little by little like do more and more I will be able to run that marathon. Now I personally have no desire to run from anything but you know that's just me. But like I think those are the things we have to remember is like I don't have to be an expert today. I don't have to be at some finish line. And oftentimes we think of healing as a finish line where it's like I am going to miraculously never have to deal with this again. It's gonna be perfect. There will never be another hard day I will never remember the things that happened to me that weren't good and feel sad. And that's not reality at all.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Well yeah and I think it comes from the fact that remembering those things in the past has caused them to relive that trauma. And so they sense the overwhelming fear, the overwhelming hopelessness that used to accompany it or maybe that still does. And so the idea is oh it all has to go away for me to be okay. And so as it's stepping back and recognizing that what healing does is it allows your nervous system to be calm in the presence of that story in the presence of those memories or those triggers where you don't have the overwhelming panic and the overwhelming hopelessness that used to be attached to it. And now you can sit in the space of that story and say that is really sad. That was really I won't use a bad word because it's a podcast but you know that was really crummy of what just happened but it no longer dominates my nervous system. And I don't have to have that I don't have that hopelessness anymore.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yes. Yeah and and that is sometimes the healing work right we can't make the bad things not have happened. Like that's just not realistic. But we can not let them eat our lunch anymore as we heal. And we can grow through them and get insight and also you know have a lot of deep healing on this side of heaven. Like the perfect healing is going to be in heaven right and we know that but we can have a good bit of goodness here as well which you know I think I want to remind people of but I do want to say this explicitly and I'm gonna ask you this question is someone a sinner and just not following Jesus if they feel anxious.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

No emotions are not sins. Our actions can be sinful and our intentions can be simple but our emotions are the responses of other things whether it be ourselves or that are going on around us. And so it sin is a condition of the heart and things that we've done and I look at emotions as they are just these chemical electrical reactions in the brain that have so much more than just chemical electrical reactions in the brain attached to them that we are feeling something as a result of maybe our own sin, maybe someone else's sin, maybe the fact that someone just spilled our milk, maybe the fact that it's raining and we were really hoping that it wouldn't be sunshiny today. And so maybe the emotion is disappointment. But I've never seen the word or the emotion of anxiety defined a sin in

Emotions Aren’t Sinful

SPEAKER_00 46:44

God's word um as much as it says don't be angry, God got angry. And so the emotion itself can't be the problem. And so that means we need to look outside of that. And it's not helpful to frame it as sin because that completely distracts us from all the things that the the Bible gives us advice to do, which is do things differently. And that's exactly what it tells us to do.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Right. And I think about Paul right who said we were afraid even to the point of death point of death. Right? Yeah and at no point is is God like And that was a sinful response. Not at all. And you should have repented. Right. And Jesus was anxious in the garden because you don't sweat blood if things are going great. Like, you know, and you're not feeling anxious. So if we know he was sinless, then how much more so are we? And again, I love your distinction, the feeling itself, the emotion itself is not sinful. What we do with it might be, um, you know, how we got there might be, some of those things might be, but the emotion itself certainly is not. And we're not failing God in that space. So, you know, for those who have heard, and unfortunately, I know that some of the listeners of this podcast have heard these very things where it's like, well, you just must not trust God if you're anxious. And that is such a minimization, you know, and then they proof text things like, do not fear. And I always want to say, what voice do you think God talks to us in? Is it the parent that's pissed off? I don't think so. Like when he was harsh, it was against the Pharisees who were setting up stupid rules and like doing dumb things, right? It was never with someone who was struggling. The way that he addressed the struggler was with such tenderness and compassion. And so why do we think when he says do not be afraid that that he's yelling at us?

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Yeah. Yeah. I think he says it both out of compassion and out of out of caution. Like, hey, don't be afraid. Like, I know this is gonna get tough. I know there are a lot of things going on. I want you to know this is what's happening bigger around, or this is the foundation underneath it. So he's giving us all of those pieces. He's giving us the bigger picture of what's going on, or the, or like Paul, you know, giving us the advice of how to handle it. Because Paul probably understood fear more better than anybody. And this guy was tortured and abused and imprisoned and all the things. And so for him to say, you know, do not fear, it doesn't come from just a an ignorance of like you'll be fine, or just just ignore it. Um, he very immediately goes into yes, prayer and petition and what you focus on, because all of that Paul knows really helps him to not be afraid. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

And, you know, how do you think Jesus looks at you, right? Like I he we talk about God as Father, you know, a good parent, and for some people listening, I know they did not have good parents, and this was not their experience. But a good parent, if a child is afraid, is gonna take them in their arms and say, baby, I've got you. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid, I've got you. And that is how I envision the posture of Jesus when I look at what the word says about his character and his nature. That is how I picture him in those moments of, hey, don't be afraid. You know, I've got you. Because he does, he's got, he knows what he's doing. And yeah, he can handle it all.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah. And so I, and you know, for you, Tabitha, my hunch is that picture of Jesus does not come without having just spent time with him, right? Correct. Like your personal time with him is what contributes to that understanding or that visual or that, you know, position or that posture that you assume from him. Um, and so, you know, for me, I want, I don't want to just give people that. I mean, I want to give it to that, but I also want them to spend that time with him as well so that they can gain it directly from him versus me just telling them, like, oh, this is who Jesus is. I know that people could tell me that all day long, but unless I spend my time with him, I won't naturally just view him that way. I'll have my own perceptions of what that looks like. And so my encouragement is for people to just spend that time with him, walk, especially through the gospels, I think, because that's where he actually walks on earth. Um, and getting to know, like, okay, he treats this people, this person this way, this person this way. Why is there a difference? You know, why does it look like he's treating people differently? Because he's not a different person, he's the same person in both scenarios. So looking at why he does that really, I think shapes his character that gives us the ability to do what you just did, which is say, oh, this Jesus is one that is just gonna come wrap his arms around me and say, Don't be afraid. It's okay. I'm right here with you. Because as we walk with him in the scripture, that's the picture I do think that we end up with.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Right. And we're not saying that Jesus is soft on things that aren't in our best interest either, right? You know, I think again about the like a good parent who will be like, honey, I can't let you run in the street. You'll be a human speed bump, right? And so, like, I'm not gonna let you run in the street. I am now gonna keep an eye on you. I maybe put up a fence so that you can't run out in the yard out of the yard anymore. You know, like those are coming from a posture of love, of not I'm trying to take from you or anything like that, but like I know it's not good for you to run out in the middle of a busy road, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Yeah, and it gets a bigger picture, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

Yeah. And so I think like when we fundamentally look at is he just angry God, you know, or is he something totally different, that we get a different picture of God. And I know for people who've experienced spiritual abuse, they may have had a God that looks nothing like the Bible spoken about to them. And so their picture of who God is might be angry God. And so if you're listening to this and you're in that position, I love your, you know, encouragement to look at the gospels. And I always encourage people to do it in a translation you're not familiar with, right? That can be like the message, or you could use uh any version that wasn't weaponized against you to read the gospels, even a children's Bible. We are big fans in my practice of the Jesus Storybook Bible. It is so good for people who've had scripture weaponized against them. And so we just encourage folks look at it a little differently and you know, and and engage with it a little bit differently than maybe you were taught or

Healing After Spiritual Abuse

SPEAKER_02 52:47

that you've experienced.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

I love that you use the Jesus Storybook Bible in your practice. So I have a question for you then. Do you keep a Bible in your work office?

SPEAKER_02 52:56

I do. We have we have we do have them in our offices, and you know, we don't necessarily pick them up. I am more likely, honestly, because of the type of clients that we see to do what we call in my practice the NTT, which is the new tabby translation, which is my exegetically and hermeneutically correct summarization of any given passage at any given moment, because I know that quoting chapter and verse for scripture for some of our clients is really hard. That was the weapon. So yeah. Yeah. And so we we tend to really be mindful of that, but we have them because sometimes clients want to look at them. So we do have the Jesus Storybook Bible, we have the New Living Translation, um, we have the message. So we do have some of the less common translations, I guess, because a lot of the weaponized ones are like the ESV, the KJV, the NKJV. Those are the ones that tend to get weaponized. So we don't have those sitting around generally speaking. Um, but we do have ones that maybe a client, if they wanted to look at it, could. Nice. I like that. Well, it is such a delight. I hope everybody goes and gets this. I think it is such a phenomenal book. And you also have resources on your website that go with the book, and we will link all of that in the description so that people can go and grab it. As we kind of lay in the plane, what is one thing, if and I know this is such a hard thing as a therapist, what is one thing you want people to know? But what is one thing you would like this audience to know?

SPEAKER_00 54:22

To all of my fellow perfectionists and overthinkers, to those who can fret over nothing and everything all at once, um, maybe to the people who can sense the stress inside their bodies, the tension, um, the wringing hands. Um, you know, there's hope. And that hope is not just two Bible verses, but it's so much bigger than that because it is Jesus walking

Final Encouragement And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 54:51

with you. And um, as you overcome this, and the reality is is that it does involve Jesus and skills. And it's not that Jesus isn't enough, it's that he's in those skills. And so um, I hope that you can find that as you are walking and overcoming anxiety, um, whether that be through my book or your own therapy process or working with somebody else, that um you will recognize that down the road you will be able to look back and say, you know what, Jesus and me, we got this. And that is my hope for people. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Melissa, thank you so much for being with us. We are so glad that you were able to be here. And I know that our audience is just gonna get so much out of this. So thank you so, so much. Thank you, Tabitha. And to our listeners, thank you for being here on Hey Tabby with us. Please be sure to like and subscribe and rate us on all the podcast platforms. We are so glad that you're here, and we will see you again next time. Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby. If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby. That's H-E-Y-T-A-B-I, and you can grab it there. I look forward to seeing you next time.