Healing Yourself with Super Foods with Tero Isokauppila and Danielle Ryan Broida

Our guests this week are Tero Isokauppila and Danielle Ryan Broida authors of the  book Healing Adaptogens. We talk about what adaptogens are, how they improve your health and how to add them to your diet.

Follow up with Tero and Danielle at foursigmatic.com or healingadaptogens.com

As always, if you like our podcast, Rate, Comment and Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And tell your friends! If you don’t like our podcast, then keep it quiet, I guess.

For more information, and to sign up for our private coaching, visit tesh.com

Our Hosts:
John Tesh: Instagram: @johntesh_ifyl facebook.com/JohnTesh
Gib Gerard: Instagram: @GibGerard facebook.com/GibGerard X: @GibGerard

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Gib. Hello and welcome to another episode of intelligence for your life. The podcast. I'm Gib Gerard, our guests this week, there are two of them. They co authored a book called Healing adaptogens. I'm talking about Taro is a Coppola and Danielle Ryan broyden. Now you may remember, we've had Danielle on the show before she she talked to us all about mushrooms, the healing kind of mushrooms, and how how they can be used to get yourself, to get your your brain, your body, into into a higher plane of health. And that's what we're going to talk about today with both of them, with Tarot and with with Danielle, we're going to talk all about exactly what adaptogens are, where you can find them in your diet, and how you can add them to your life in order to live your best life, in order to be emotionally more centered, in order to have your gut health be optimized your every bit of your body can be optimized with these, with these adaptogens, these these foods that we, you know, we've known about for for millennia, but we, we don't get in our diet enough. So that's what we're gonna be talking about today. All kinds of good stuff coming up, new guests on the podcast coming up that are we think are gonna be really exciting for you guys are trying to trying to get you guys in the place you are the place you want to be. So here, without further ado, my interview with Tara, Isa Coppola and Danielle Ryan broyder. Daryl, Isa Coppola and Danielle Ryan Broida, authors of the new books, of the new book healing, adaptogens. Thank you guys so much for being with us today. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having us. Danielle. We've had you on the show before we talked all about, you know, the the benefits of mushrooms, this sort of mycological revolution that's going on. I feel like, since we've talked this idea of food that helps us in in other kinds of ways, that helps our brain, that makes these significant differences in our lives, has really gained a lot of traction, and we're seeing, we're seeing a lot of that all over the place with like Netflix documentaries, and that kind of thing. Is that why you guys decided to write this book? Why did we why are we dealing with adaptogens in this way now? Yeah, great question. The category is definitely exploding. A lot of people are hearing this word adaptogen and they're seeing it on movies, as you said, in all sorts of different products. I mean, the span is huge, and yet what we find is there's still a lot of confusion. People are like, Okay, I'm seeing this everywhere, but what are they actually? What do they do? How should I use them to make sure I get the benefit? So we really wanted to clear the air and create a really accessible guide, but that is also definitive that covers the history of use of these incredible species, a lot of the gold standard clinical trials to back up some of the claims and the benefits that are touted about them, and just have a kind of comprehensive but really simple way to reference and be confident about how to bring these into your life to actually reap the benefits you guys. I love that you guys are affiliated with. You founded and worked for the one of the first companies to really get into this space. Then you guys have been really popular in the podcasting space for a long time, sponsoring and doing interviews, but Four Sigmatic really, really quickly. Can you guys give people a quick primer as to what the mission of Four Sigmatic is, before we dive deeper into the the idea of adaptogens in general? Of course, I founded Four Sigmatic about 10 years ago, in 2012 with the idea of elevating people's wellness with these world's most nutrient dense foods. So Four Sigmatic is a super geeky and nerdy way of saying we focus on the top 100 most nutrient dense foods. It's all on a bell curve, four standard deviations from the mean, and you end up with these. And the words come plenty. When we started the company, people talked about super foods, we highlighted particularly on the value of the functional mushrooms in the top 100 foods, because though we felt that those were underrepresented and adaptogens, surely in the top 100 there's a couple dozen of these so called adaptogens that this book is all about as well. And the funny thing that has happened over the years is, I thought I started a superfood or mushroom or adaptogen company, but what has actually happened is we've almost started a mental wellness company, and people then have seek the benefits of these either elevating or balancing their body and and and seek all kinds of benefits in this super stressful modern day life that we all live in different forms and facilities and professionally and personally at home. I think, I think the. Two fold, right? Like, I think there's the fact that people, a lot of people, have gotten kind of tired of, particularly in the mental health space, the side effects of a lot of mental health pharmaceuticals. And so people are looking, are looking for alternatives, alternative ways to sort of get their brains firing properly. I think we live a life that is also unnatural. Most of us live a life that is not what our brains and bodies were meant for, but is it, you know, we're sort of shoehorned into. So I think that a lot of that contributes to this desire for what you're talking about, seeking out this sort of mental wellness associated with with what you guys offer. I want to I got to answer some, I got to ask some basic, basic questions. So first and foremost, what are adaptogens. How do you guys define them in and how does it apply to this? Yeah, I'll take it. Give it a go. Yeah, I'll take a stab at this first, and Terry, you can fill in. But adaptions are a category, so think of them like an umbrella category of super plants and functional mushrooms. There's about 30 of them. It's debated. We focus on 21 in our new book, and they all have certain characteristics in common. So all of them are non toxic. This is huge. It means they're safe to take every day. They have a history of being used long term. They're more like foods in this way, rather than medicines, right? They're incredibly, incredibly nutrient dense, beyond non toxic, they're all normalizing. So this is really interesting. They don't have a specific exertion in the body, but rather, they are nourishing and tonifying multiple systems in the body at the same time. Do you think that's like, you think that's a big contributor to why people are reaching out to this over, not over pharmaceuticals, but, like, maybe before they go to pharmaceuticals, is for this reason that it's it does normalize, as opposed to creating a an issue with homeostasis? Yeah, I think that's a part of it. People are like, hey, this one thing I've been reaching for isn't working. Or, as I mentioned, maybe there's all these side effects. And what's really cool about adaptogens is you can use them starting for that benefit, like, hey, I want to use Lion's Mane for brain support. But when you what you then notice is because it's not just targeting that one spot in your body. It's also nourishing your gut health and acting on your immune system. We get these other long term benefits where we're simultaneously supporting more the root of where these issues or where these ailments might be stemming from that we end up saying, hey, I need this nootropic to help with. So there's this, like, dual action that goes on where someone might reach for it for one purpose, and then a few weeks later, be like, Wow, I didn't expect this other improvement to happen, but now I'm sleeping really well. Or now my, you know, kid got sick and I didn't contract it, or what's going on. So they're, yeah, regardless of why you first turn to them, they're so packed with nutrients, they're working on so many levels of the body that there's a lot of reasons to believe, right? And they're, they're gaining this popularity for a reason, and I think that's one of the big ones. So I interrupted you to ask that question, but you were, you were in the middle of explaining why. So they're, they're normalizing and non toxic, and why, what kind of draws you to them, and what else? What other factors do you look for, aside from those like, it's, it's more than just, you know, adding dietary fiber, which is normalizing and non toxic as well. Yeah, there's one, one additional key point we've got to hit on so they're non toxic, they're normalizing. They're also non specific. This is really cool. It's similar to normalizing. But essentially what it means is these adaptogens have compounds that work in either a gas, like a stimulating way, or a break, like a relaxing kind of, whoa, chill out way. And depending on the body that ingests the adaptogen, the gas effect or the break effect, will be louder. Is kind of a way to think about it, based on what that body means, right? So we hear, they're like, adapting, like pun intended, they adapt to our bodies. They work with us. So you know all of these adaptogens about, you know, the 2030 that exist have these in common, and yet they each are unique, right? They're not the exact same phytochemical makeup. They each have unique vitamins and minerals and different phyto constituents. And so they can each offer a slightly kind of various range of benefits, whether it's for skin health or immunity performance, brain or body. So we can really get Cho like, get choosy and get specific about which ones we reach towards. And yeah, continue to be surprised by the way that they they move and shift and improve multiple areas of our bodies. How do you guys identify, you know, what is the standard for which we've identified, the you guys stressing the 21 but the 30 that you that you mentioned adaptogens, and I'm assuming it has to do with just historical, historical context. And that people have used these for generations. Why? Why do we stop if it is historical, otherwise, how do, how do you guys? How do you guys find and or curate that list, like, what is the standard you guys use? Yeah, I can, I can try to answer that. So the three requirements that was set 70 years ago by the quote, unquote founder, of adaptogens is sounds really simple, but it's actually quite strict an herbalism, which Daniel can speak closely about. Lot of things are toxic. Lot of things are seasonal. So most, like in traditional Chinese medicine, there's very few of these Emperor herbs that are not preventative or healing and instead can be used year round. So that's actually quite limiting. So you would think it's simple, but it's not. The other part is that the things that are safe and non toxic actually are are not attacking multiple body systems. So they tend to be mostly focused on macronutrients or micronutrients. Instead. A lot of these adaptogenic functions are these nano nutrients, you know, be it polyphenols or beta d glucans or certain try terpenes or saponins. So it's a hard list. And to answer your question, if we would only take the indigenous use we could probably find, you know, more than 20 to 30 of these adaptogens. But what's the beauty of adaptogens is that they actually are supported by Western research. So adaptogens is a perfect Mary between the West and the East. They've been used for hundreds, if not 1000s of years. They're the top one or two in their native area. So each one of these adaptogens is, you know, elevated into this, you know, immortal status in indigenous cultures or ancient traditions. And at the same time, they have hundreds of research papers, which is rare in food. And we could probably extend the list by another dozen or two, if we would ignore the Western research. But in the adaptogenic side, it's really important that they're also validated by credible research. And we went through over 1000 research papers and and many of these hype supplements that you see ads on, you know they might or might not be good, but they're not proven credibly, and that's why the list is so small. Could we, in 50 to 100 years, have a bigger list? 100% I want to get into what's actually on the list and which ones you guys think are the most important. I mean, it's some of them I looking through the table of context for your book. Some of them are things I recognize from Four Sigmatic products, but before we even get to that, I want do you guys have, like, a rubric or a primer? Because a lot of these words have become buzz words, like we see Chaga and lion's mane. I think when you guys started, there was nowhere and now, or at least nowhere in like Western grocery stores, but now I'm, you know, almost every company now makes something with, you know, like a Chaga matcha latte or something or, you know, it's something with Lion's Mane extract in it. How do we what is the standard that we as consumers can use when we're looking for this to know where the snake oil is and where the the real, the real good, essential adaptogens that we want to add to our diet are. So that's that beautiful question. I'll try to answer that as a CEO of adaptogen company. And then Daniel can Gib, aside from saying just by Four Sigmatic, but I mean, honestly, it's really damn hard. Yeah, it's so so hard. Like, what you're asking is super relevant, is that there's a lot of excitement on the potential health benefits of these products. And me, after doing this for 20 years, and as a CEO of a company, we've tested literally 10s of 1000s of batches of different products. It's so damn hard, like there's just so much data and so much to manage. And by the way, some of these ingredients, you know, Four Sigmatic, doesn't sell. So it's also not like these are just the things to take, in our opinion. But we wrote this book for that reason, like I would have wished this book existed 20 years ago to explain what are the quality factors based on our research. Both me running for Sigmatic and doing all these lab tests and trying to procure the best stuff, and us together reviewing research papers, and Danielle's practice of working with people in real life, with with, with these super herbs and super mushrooms. So it's really damn hard. The book is set to be here, the seminal book for this for many years to come, and explain these answers. And we we have, like, a shopping guide, what to watch out for, and we try to write it in a way that we don't actually really mention many companies. It's more like. Like, hey, here's like, 10 things to consider when you're shopping, things like extraction, which impacts by availability, pesticides, heavy metals, what is the form and genus of the plant or the mushroom in? What form is it the root? Is it the leaf, and how that impacts? And how do you marry those ingredients. What's the dosage, based on modern research, like, is it 100 milligrams of extract? So what amount? And try to debunk some of these marketing mix where you buy, you know, a super food that has 75 of these quote, unquote, super foods and adaptogens. And then you start to look at the per dosage amounts and the forms, and you realize this is not in any way supported by the research on their health benefits. So that's that's my view. It's really difficult. That's literally the main reason why we wrote this book is we've been asked these questions a million times, and we wish this book would have existed, you know, decades ago. But Daniel, I don't know with your practice, what do you what do you see being helpful for for people to navigate this territory? Yeah, first off, I have a lot of compassion for people trying to navigate this space, because it is really crowded and really confusing, and people want these benefits and so you know, first Bravo for being curious and wanting to get to the place where you feel you know what we say is a life on adaptogens, but we really focused in on this third part of our book. It's a it's a really practical shopping guide. And as taro said, This is so needed. I think the five big things that we really hit on to ensure that you're getting what you intended to get is, yeah, one that form, like, there's, we call it a power hub. You know, there's different parts of each plant or mushroom where the active compounds lie that will really give you those benefits. And so, yeah, it's really important to use the fruiting body of the mushroom. Or with ashwagandha, you have to use the root right go to cola. We use the leaf. So knowing that you're actually getting the right part of the planter. Fungi is huge. Dose is another big thing we're seeing like, Oh, two milligrams of this one adaptogen on a gummy or on a, you know, beauty product, or whatever it might be, and it's just not enough to have a true impact in your body. So knowing that the dose you're actually getting enough for your body to utilize and feel benefits is huge. So we have form dose, as Tara mentioned, this purity, like the ingredients have to be clean, they have to be organic, ideally, they're third party tested, right? You want to get something that isn't further damaging your body, but that is actually clean and pure, and the forms used in in clinical trials, the extraction piece, right, making sure that what you're getting is actually able to be used by your body. We call that bioavailability. And then kind of the fifth bonus that we mentioned is, is sustainability and really sourcing your ingredients from their their native lands. I'm really passionate about this as an herbalist. And there's some really cool things about adaptogens, where they grow in really extreme, harsh climates, often. And there's this thing called the doctrine of signatures, which is, you've probably heard of it. It's like a walnut being good for your brain, but how something looks out in nature is giving us information about how it's going to act and benefit our bodies. So because walnuts look like brains, they're good for your brains. That's it. That's it, right? And there's so many foods and medicines and plants like this that are kind of giving us information. And part the relevancy with adaptogens is they grow in these crazy, harsh climates where there's huge temperature ranges, or really harsh soil conditions, or, you know, there's glacier ice caps, or Rhodiola is found in Iceland. There's like volcanoes erupting next to it, and yet, they're super resilient, right? They're able to they're able to survive and thrive despite huge environmental stressors. And so overall, you know, if we source them from these native places where they've developed these compounds, where they have to survive and and really grow despite what's going on around them that is going to be so much more significant and have a greater impact in our body than if we were to get these, you know, lab grown or right, yeah, from a different region, right? So you have to go to where you have to go, where it is, try to source it sustainably, but also that you're getting the right one. There's all kinds of examples of this too, where people try to regrow stuff in or make something in a new factory. They really, they forget that there's a secret part to whatever, wherever it was, natively that gives it, that imbues it with the power that we saw initially. So a really banal example was there was a sausage company that. Had these famous red hot sausages, and when they built a new factory to make the sausages, the time it took to move the sausage from one part of the cooking to the other was too short, and it wasn't actually getting the same texture and color that it used to get, because in the old factory, they had to walk it down a longer hallway. And so the sausage is cooled properly anyway. That's a really back where, backwards way of pointing out that, like sometimes, the the native environment that something comes from originally, is actually going to give it more of the quality that we love about it, than trying to just grow it in its own in a new, more idealistic place. Yeah, and there's a word for it's called Geno hormesis, so similar to think of yourself as a as a living being, and if you expose yourself to challenges, be it physically or mentally, you if once you get through it, you become out stronger. So that's the hero's journey. But plants and fungi, there's Xeno hormesis, which means that heat, temperature, shock, radiation, all of these stress responses increase, for example, polyphenol production, and that that polyphenol is actually there for the plant or the fungi or the antioxidants to protect itself from those stressors. And then we can, when properly used, we can leverage those in our whole in our life. So what do you think guys are the most important ones? Like, what are we missing the most from our diet? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's funny, because, like, this top 21 is really, like the creme de la creme, so there's really nothing to cut. And there is ways how we teach based on your body types and your challenges in life, where to start, because it can be overwhelming to have start with 21 so do you are you focused on your skin or immunity or brain and stress? But I would say few ones that should be pretty interesting to everyone. Let me give me my three and then Danielle can add at hers to me, ashwagandha, Rishi and Schisandra are some of those things that everybody should have on their radar. Rishi being the queen of mushrooms, the most studied of all the fungi, ashwagandha being arguably the most studied, top Indian Ayurvedic herb. And to me, Schisandra is, you know, is the most diverse, in a way. It's five flavors. It hits all the meridians. There's a lot of things with it. So to me, all the 21 matter. But if you're new to it, and you don't know where to start. To me, ashwagandha, Rishi and Sandra are just the great ones. Interesting. Go ahead, Daniel, oh, I'm like, stressing over here. How do I choose three? It's like, choose your favorite child, and you're like, I don't know there's so many, okay, but I'm on a big cacao kick right now. And I think cacao is an underrated adaptogen. A lot of us think of it more as a food. Maybe we eat it in a highly processed form that then gets into a chocolate bar. But we really break down what cacao is, right? That true bean from the Theobroma cacao tree, and cacao is, is the most nutrient dense, right? The most identified phyto compounds of all foods on the planet. It's incredible. I'm a huge component of sleep, and cacao is one of our richest forms of natural magnesium. So incredible to either have that kind of stimulating or relaxing, adaptogenic quality based on your body really working with you individually. It's just such an incredible plant. Next I would choose Moringa. Moringa is super cool. It's a leaf used in a lot of parts of the world for its nutrient density as well. So again, this is more more food like which, as a herbalist, nutritionist, I'm really drawn to these, these foods like adaptogens. It's actually been used in places where there's malnourishment to help with repleting These bodies and just flooding the system with a huge range of amino acids and vitamins and minerals and really, really amazing leaf can be used in so many ways. And my third, I'm like, I've got to throw a mushroom in there. But we're gonna, we're gonna tell the plants today. So the third for me in this moment, and it changes every day. Is Tulsi, often known as holy basil. It's the most sacred plant in India. I used to live in India, and it's growing all over the place, wild up in the mountains, every home has a Tulsi plant. It's like a communication between the humans and the gods. And it's it's tried doshik. So this basically means it's a really safe, approachable herb no matter what your body type is. So regardless of, you know where you live, or you know if you're prone to be more warm or cold or a little more moist, and you'll get it into this in the book, and really getting to know like who you are individually as a body type, Tulsi is. Great, really gentle place to start, amazing to support the stress response, stress and mood and so much more so cacao, Moringa and Tulsi in this moment. Wow. All right. I My question to you right now is, I know we have a highly processed food diet at this point. Most, most people do right, and we are starting to see the health consequences of that. How do we begin to correct both as a society and as an individual? How do we begin to correct that, the sort of consequences of that and begin to lean into this more nutritionally dense lifestyle that you guys are purporting? Yeah, my take is, is you have you don't make progress without compliance. So if you want to get fit, it's not about having the best workout program off the gate. It's more about just showing up and making progress. Similar with your diet, obviously, depending where you are in your journey. To me, compliance is everything. So when I used to do nutritional coaching for professional athletes, I would often start with upgrades by looking at what are they eating now and seeing how can I upgrade? How can I upgrade your smoothie or post workout shake? How can we upgrade your coffee? How can we upgrade your spice cabinet? How can you upgrade your oils that you're using? The other thing is adding in finding ways, how, without sacrificing convenience or flavor, how can you add things to your diet? Is it like adding I mentioned spices like turmeric? Is it something you could add or into, into your daily routine, items and finding ways how you can add things to soups and broths and and other meals. And then finally, swaps. There's like swaps, where you have a routine or a habit and you swap it with something that is more nutrient dense, but similar, like, if you love evening snacking and you have, you're creating something salty and fatty, and maybe, maybe you are deficient in salt after a sweaty, hot summer day, or something like that, then finding things like maybe seaweed snacks and other things that will hit that spot. I think refusing temptations and urges is actually really dangerous because it takes a lot of willpower and it often ends up failing anyway. Interesting reason is that it's body signal of a nutritional inefficiency or craving. So these cravings are actually there for a reason. Obviously you have to separate what the craving is and how to support it, but I think you can support the cravings and make huge progress by just, you know, upgrading, adding and swapping things in your current routine, and starting there you can later go on and get all the supplements you want. But I would not start with that strategy. You know, I think that there's a really, make a really interesting point there, right? Which is, I think our, most of us eat a diet that is very calorically dense and nutritionally void. And what you're describing there is the it makes intuitive eating, which is essentially what you're talking about really difficult, where you listen to your body and you eat what your body's craving. But what we have are a lot of like poor substitutes. We have these processed foods that that signal our brains that we're getting the nutrients we need, but are actually giving us ersatz versions of them, right? And so we want to listen, we want to eat more, what X, Y or Z, but we have a hard time doing that. I feel like my first step whenever I'm eating well is to remove processed foods, because I can't listen to my body while the processed food sort of mechanisms are still in it is, does that work? Or are you just suggesting the swap outs to start and building from there is the best way. Again, there's like 5000 different ways to the top of the mountain. There's one right way, both from five individuality and genetics point of view, but also from the lifestyle point of view outside what stress is, what is important is, What is something you can sustain and maintain. Often, in my experience, that requires some level of enjoyability, both as a habit and as a flavor. So to me, it's just easier. But I think you make a good point about like I grew up foraging, and I've taken people out of forage and this and that, and when you start getting wild food, you quickly realize that you are you have abundance of nutrition and not enough calories. And then when you live in a modern city, like like many of us do, you start to realize the opposite, where you have abundance of calories and lack of nutrients. So it's something super important to keep mindful of, and maybe, for example, slight caloric death. Said, both for longevity and weight, is pretty easy to if you currently are at some level of balance where you're not gaining weight, or you're not losing weight, or you're gaining a little bit of weight very slowly, by doing couple of these swaps into lower calorie, higher nutrient density foods actually could be like your coffee creamer and or something like that, and then doing those swaps Could, could actually get you to caloric deficit and increase nutrient density of of micro and these nano nutrients that fuel your body. So I think whatever you can sustain would be my main answer, yeah. I mean, yeah, is it right? The best workout program, the best diet, is the one that you can that you can continue, is the one that you can do. I mean, I think you we, we get the we get these foods that, again, like you're talking about. You make these, you make these nutritional swap outs. You begin to you begin to start to listen your body. You can supplement with some. I know that you this is the last step. Is to supplement with, with things like Four Sigmatic but I feel like the convenience factor for so many people is, is a big is a big barrier, you know, and what we have in modern life sort of is we have, we give ourselves less and less time for this stuff. Do you have any any opinions about how to live a better, more nutritious life within the context of of our sort of a convenience obsessed society? Yeah, convenience is big, and we get this a lot. People like, Oh, I'm not going to remember to do this new thing, or I don't have enough time, or all these excuses. And we talked last time, you said that was a big reason for how you guys developed. It was everything was supposed to be easy and replace a habit that we already, that we already do. Yeah, this idea of habit stacking, I think, is really relevant for a lot of these excuses. It's like, okay, we get it. We're all busy, and we have a lot of things to remember, and that's the reason you're probably reaching for adaptogens in the first place. You know, you're stressed and you want to, you want to have an easier, more clear mind and less stressful day. And so think about that. We all have habits, right? We all have habits. We do every single day, whether we realize it or not. So taking a few moments to say, Okay, what's the routine thing I do when I wake up in the morning. You know, for most Americans, that's a cup of coffee. It's a really, really easy place to start. Add an adaptogen to your coffee, right? You don't have to think about doing anything extra or different, or setting an alarm or having an extra bottle. Just add it, right? Stack it to the thing that you're not giving up and you actually enjoy, right? As Tara mentioned, this isn't something we want to get rid of. Maybe there's negative side effects to it, but what if we can add something? We can continue the habit, we can still have that moment, because it's a really food is personal, right? It's a really intimate thing for a lot of people. And so, yeah, it's cultural, too. I mean, we we have a lot of these things. Are they not just about nutrition, it's about they are cultural touch points for a lot of us. Yeah, absolutely. And we don't want to get rid of those, right? But when people come to us and say, Hey, like, I'm experiencing X, Y and Z issues, and I'm having headaches, or I get this crash and later in the day, or I can't sleep, or I'm really looking to improve my performance, we want to honor those habits and say, Yeah, we get it. Tarot is a Finn. Finns drink more coffee than any other country in the world. Man up to my own heart. I had no idea. Yeah. I think there's also a slower process that happens when you start improving nutrients in your body is, is, is twofold. One is that when you start, especially with things like adaptogens, you start normalizing your body systems. You start to sleep 2% better. You sleep 2% better. You have more energy. Maybe you'll go for a walk or a workout, that will start to improve a lot of things very slowly. So then habit stacking, from that point of view, certain cravings go away, when, when, when you are when you sleep better and you have naturally more energy. The other one is your biome, both the microbiome, but also the microbiome. So we have both bacteria and fungi in our gut and our skin, and a lot of these adaptogens and other healthy foods help support or even heal your biome, and then that leads to various cravings going away, so especially things like bitters, like a Reishi or an ashwagandha that we already mentioned, and then, and then things that are like, have certain kind of gut friendly compounds be prebiotics, probiotics, fermented foods, those, those fermented things will start to then heal your gut, which leads to having healthier life without. Of stress because your biome changes, so your cravings change, yeah. Do you think that those, those incremental changes are harder in a society obsessed with feeling the effects and instant gratification like the all the stuff you're talking about, it has a cumulative effect that does not hit as hard as a pharmaceutical, for example, and do you think that that's that's difficult, that that's part of the problem, that you have to climb 100% and that's why, for example, in our formulation, we often think about like, what our body systems that have a fast cycle, for example, mitochondria, energy production and cognitive function. Those are benefits that you can notice faster, right, versus immunity, gut health take a longer time to build. Your skin will heal in 35 days. But your mitochondria is constantly your cellular energy production is constantly happening. So, you know, having a formula where you have a thing like a Cordyceps, which is an adaptogen that increases cell energy production and oxygen intake, you often notice it immediately, which you know that instant feedback loop says, whoa. I really feel this one and and then even another, adapting like Alliance, maybe has some fast acting benefits for brain and and and memory and things like that. But then it has like, slow, active benefits for longevity purposes. So I think what's great about some of these adaptogens is that they instant benefits, like a cacao, like when you get, like, an immediate kind of raw chocolate, raw cacao high but it also has many things for longevity. And many people who've lived 100 years report that they ate dark chocolate on a regular basis. So, so, but there are certain adaptogens and there's certain health practices that people struggle with because they do not give the instant gratification. Yeah, but I think adaptogens are more in the category that do give it while providing long term benefits, which helps many people will leverage them, and that's why I think a thing like ashwagandha has recently passed green juice in Google search volumes, and it's really hard to type and spell ashwagandha, pretty mind blowing that a weird Indian root has surpassed the huge health trend of green juicing and people. And I think it's only possible because it works. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, we'll put a link to where to buy the book in the show notes. Healing adaptogens. I'm gonna ask you guys two last questions, first and foremost, aside from buying the book, How can God, how can people follow up with you guys? Yeah, you can see us both on Four Sigmatic, on all social channels, four sigmatic.com you can also head to healing adaptogens.com for more info about the book specifically, and I can be found at Danielle Ryan breider and tarot, I will share that you can be found at I am tarot, T, E, R, O, I'll put a link to your guys' socials. And those websites, both the book website and four sigma x website will be in the show notes. Last but not least, and this is to both of you, what is one thing we can all start doing today that will make our lives a whole lot better? Drink more water. Oh, is something accessible to everyone? I think sleep more is the easiest. But that's not easy for everyone. But I think drink more water is most of us are chronically dehydrated and and dry, both physically and sometimes some of us mentally as well. So drink more water is huge. And then, if I may, throw another one is add spices, get brand new set of organic spices. Pretty much everybody can afford to have a spice cabinet and then use them liberally for both God purposes, but also many other health benefits. Interesting, Daniel, do you agree with all of that? Oh, yeah. I mean so many things. I'm like cheering. I'm like, yeah, yeah, the same, agreed. But I'll offer one more thing, and then I got to have a bonus too, to keep it even. So the first, it feels like a little bit of a cheat, but add an adaptogen into your daily routine. I think switching to a functional coffee, a mushroom coffee, if you're a coffee drinker, is so, so simple. So start there. And again, those, like, 2% 1% those incremental changes, just be open and excited about how they'll continue to move and improve in your body. And then a second one, which is, is free, kind of like the water, something that's really important in my life, is a breath practice. So instead of, like, having to find a whole practice, and like, Oh, my God, breath work is a huge category. See if you can count your inhales and exhales, and see if you can make your exhalations two seconds longer than your inhalations. So that's a little stress hack that we can do if we don't yet have an adaptogen on board to calm our nerve. The system and just be able to have more stamina to face all the stressors that we're going through in this crazy modern world we're living in. Yeah, yeah. I mean these simple changes, right? Guys, it's all right. Well, Taro Isaac Coppola and Daniel Ryan broido, thank you guys so much for your time today. We really appreciate it, and you've I'm excited to dive into this book, and I hope that everybody else is. Thank you so much for having us. Thanks for having us. That's it for the show today. Thank you guys so much for listening. If you like the show, please rate, comment and subscribe on Apple podcast. Stitcher, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. Helps us out a lot. Follow up with John at facebook.com/john, Tesh. He's also on Instagram, at John Tesh. Underscore, if, well, I'm Gib Gerard. You find me facebook.com/gib, Gerard, or at Gib Gerard on Instagram and Twitter, I try to respond to every DM, every mention of the show, because ultimately, I do the show for you guys. So thank you so much for listening. You.