LEVEL THREE: Marketing Veteran on Why Most Founders Burn Out and How to Avoid It

Level 3: $3-$8M
DELEGATION AND EARLY LEADERSHIP 

On today’s episode of The Business Game, we’re sitting down with Phil Ohren, Founder and CEO of Intender, a growth marketing agency on a mission to make advertising useful, not annoying. 

Like many founders, Phil spent years chasing growth, building teams, serving clients, and pushing for the next milestone. But behind the scenes, he found himself facing something he never expected: burnout so severe it left him with writer's block, strategy block, and a growing realisation that his identity had become tied to external validation. 

In this episode, Phil shares the lessons that came from that experience, including why he believes many entrepreneurs are unknowingly people-pleasers, how learning to let go transformed his leadership, and the advice from a mentor who told him he was operating like "a genius with a thousand helpers". A mindset that simply doesn't scale. 

Let’s dive in,
With Phil Ohren: 

• Why founder burnout often starts with seeking validation from others 
 • The leadership shift required to stop being the bottleneck 
 • Why Phil would build a CRM before writing vision and values 
 • The power of accountability frameworks inside growing businesses 
 • How being "neuro-spicy" became one of his biggest strengths as a founder 
 • Why curiosity is a competitive advantage in business 
 • The future of AI and why Phil believes robots will transform advertising 
 • How small, consistent wins compound into massive growth over time 

Whether you're trying to scale a business, build a stronger leadership team, or avoid the mistakes that lead many founders to burnout, this conversation is packed with practical insights and honest reflections from someone who's lived through it. 

The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses  High Level’s software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere - so click here for your 14-day free trial:
https://www.gohighlevel.com/?fp_ref=ribu88 

This episode contains affiliate advertising. The Business Game Group is a GoHighLevel affiliate. If you sign up through the link in the show notes, we may earn a commission at no additional cost to you.

Transcript

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I, I burnt out pretty bad last year, to the point where my ego wouldn't... I had, like, writer's block and strategy block, which was a bit odd. The vision I set seven years ago of making advertising useful, not annoying. A lot of the ones that burn out are the ones who have realized, "Oh my gosh, um, why am I actually doing this now?" Um, and again, they're so obsessed with pleasing others and getting external validation that they've sort of lost sight of what pleases them. If I could turn back time, I would've started a CRM the very first day. I would've done the CRM before I even did my vision, mission, and values. One of the advisors said to me, "Phil, you're, you're acting like a genius with 1,000 helpers, when actually that's not gonna scale." Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to $200 billion so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level three, which sits in the 3 to $8 million bracket, the emerging CEO stage. At this level, revenue is consistent and the team is growing, but you're no longer just building a business, you're building leadership. The challenges? Delegating real ownership, installing managers, and making the psychological shift from founder operator to CEO. The goal? Step out of the bottleneck and build a leadership layer that scales beyond you Hello, and welcome to The Business Game. I'm Steve Plummer, and today we're joined by Phil O'Ren. Phil is the founder and CEO of Intenda, a performance marketing agency built on a simple premise: make advertising useful, not annoying. With more than 20 years in digital marketing, Phil has helped brands like UE, Canon, and Amex turn search into sustainable growth. Today, he's playing at level three, focused on scaling Intenda in the age of AI by building the systems, people, and processes needed to grow without losing the edge that got them there. Let's dive in with Phil O'Ren. Phil, welcome- Hello, mate to The Business Game. It's almost welcome back. I thank you very much. Yeah, it's great to see you again. It's great to be back. All right. So Phil, for listeners who haven't heard of you before and haven't heard of Intenda, can you give us a, a rundown about, a bit about your background and what Intenda does? Um, so essentially I started marketing very early, the age of 14-ish, and, um, I just felt gripped by SEO at that stage. It was kind of new, it was cool, it was mysterious. Um, and I quickly became a specialist in that area. Mm. Um, how we got to Intenda though, I worked for some big, like, international agencies. We call them holdcos when they deal with the biggest brands in the world. Um, and essentially throughout that journey, I worked with some incredible brands like Chanel, like Chelsea Football Club, um, Booking.com. Like, you name it, they were kind of there. Yeah. But what I kind started to learn was just the darker side of media was often the, the deals that are done behind the scenes to, you know, minimum spends of X million per brand and stuff like that. It started to make me realize that- Um, a lot of what was going on in advertising was just about volume. And then I think one day a client had sort of mentioned, "I want more seven-seat SUV intenders." And I was like, "Wow, that's a really good way of thinking about it." Um, and lo and behold, the domain was available. Um, and then essentially it got into my brain, and I pretty much was gripped by this notion of, of an intender, which is someone who wants to do something or is actually in market- Mm-hmm versus a non-intender or a future intender, who is someone who's just living their life. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? It does, yeah. And so from there, the Intender brand was born, and you've gone from strength to strength. Pretty much. Pretty much, yeah. We, uh, HQ started d- in Noosa, um, Queensland- Yep um, just at the time of COVID, and now we've got teams in Melbourne, Sydney, and overseas as well, which is really cool. Right. Fantastic. Well, congrats. That's really good growth- Thanks in a short space of time. All right, Phil, you've said that one of your biggest challenges right now is scaling lead generation. Mm. Now, if nothing changes over the next 12 months, what's the cost to the business? If nothing changes over the next 12 months, I think we would, we'd probably be very re- very reliant on referral-based business, I think still. Which the challenge with that for any businesses who are at, like, level one, two, or three really is you kinda don't know when those referrals are gonna come. You can't bank on them. Um, and then the irony of being an advertising agency is more often than not, the ads actually aren't that effective, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. Um, some work, some channels work better than others, but in many cases you're sort of going, "Hey, spend with me now," but it might not be the right time. And so I think- If we don't crack this over the next 12 months as well, it is, it is a limiting factor for us, like doubling or tripling in size. And it's something that we really have to kind of get, get a foothold on, I would say. Yeah. So that's almost the paradox, isn't it? That the referral clients are often the best. Mm-hmm. But like you said, they are unreliable to a point. Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, have you cracked that yet? I'd say, I wouldn't say crack it with res- 'cause w- uh, with respect to the referee, um, it's definitely an earned media, I would say, where you've got to earn the right to be recommended. Uh, and then flipping that back to sort of like the paid media aspect of it, when you're buying the attention, whether that's on YouTube or Google or Facebook- Yeah you, you are effectively buying the privilege to get in front of that person. Mm-hmm. One of the harder things to do with that is it might not be permission-based at the time. Mm. And it's- Yeah. When you say permission-based, what does that mean? I mean, if you're googling new digital agency or, um, looking, you know, you're looking for a performance agency, there's some level of permission there. There's a level of expectation that they are open to receiving that. Mm-hmm. Whereas if you're sort of watching your favorite TV show and an ad comes up trying to s- I see you know, talk about work while you're at home, I would say that's non-permission-based. Yeah. Okay. And so you're very much built around that permission-based environment- Yeah and that, that concept of intent. Yeah. If someone has intent to do business, that's your, your shtick and where you play. Is that correct? Yeah. I would say so. In many ways, the metaphor I like to use is that there is a haystack and there's some needles in there. The job of Intender is to try and remove as much hay as possible- Yeah so that you can cleanly and easily see the needles. Yeah, nice. That's a good metaphor. Right. Phil, you've mentioned a, a major breakthrough in your business was finally defining your value proposition in a way that wasn't geek speak. Nice term. What do you mean? Not geek speak. So can you explain what you mean by that and how you were, what you were doing wrong before that breakthrough? I think what we were doing, what I mean, sorry, what I mean by geek speak is, is it riddled with acronyms? Mm-hmm. For example, at the moment, one of the biggest acronyms thrown around is AIO and AEO and GEO. Yes. And a lot of that can be grounds for bamboozling a client and trying to, you know, blind them with science. And so I think when I'm, when I'm saying de-geek something, I mean, could you say it to your mother and would she understand what you're talking about? Right. Mm-hmm. You, you mentioned too, I mean, this seems very obvious, defining your value proposition. Mm. Has, is that, in your experience, something that businesses generally struggle with? And if so, why? Um, I think a lot of people struggle with it. I think- It's one of those, it's one of those things that's never quite done. I would say as well, it should be more of a value proposition platform or something that's a bit organic that changes with time. For example, in the first three to four years of Intendo's life, we were very much leading, you know, trying to position ourselves with our vision, which is to make advertising useful, not annoying. When in actual fact, that, that didn't work as a value proposition because it doesn't quite explain on the tin exactly what, what or how it does it. Uh-huh. And so where we've moved to now is that, um, you know, our current value proposition is most age- uh, most agencies start with channels, we start with symptoms. Um, now that is probably very simple, but also it b- it raises a question of, well, what's a symptom? But t- technically, what we, what we mean by that is that you're able to, instead of saying, "We're gonna advertise on Google," we're basically saying, "Actually, we're gonna find the people on Google who are suffering from something that you can solve." Right. Okay. So can we just broaden that, uh, for a moment? Companies that don't have a really strong value proposition or at least a well-defined- Mm or well-articulated, um, value proposition, what, what's the consequence of that for them in the marketplace? So let, let's start with, like, a high street business like a florist. Um, most would say, you know, ask people what does a florist sell, nearly everybody says flowers. Flowers, yeah. Um, and so their value proposition is anchored around that. But then if you think about a really boutique high-end florist, they would struggle to charge- Mm $100 a bouquet plus for flowers, and so what they sell is hope and appreciation. Mm-hmm. Or impact or, um, in some cases a conversation starter, uh, in, in many ways, right? And so I think where businesses can, can make progress with this is really spending time to, to work out what it is you really sell. You know, a doctor sells time ultimately. Mm-hmm. Um, they don't necessarily make you better straight away, but the diagnoses of the symptom is what they are ultimately selling you. So and is that, based on what you're saying, is that more often than not an emotion as opposed to a thing? I would say so, especially when we're dealing with people, and obviously we are dealing with people for the most part. Yes. But now with agentic transformation in the industry, we've also got to make sure we've got a value proposition for AI. Ooh. Whoops. So where we were probably two years ago... Well, where we were from the start is we were a people first agency. Uh, very recently we've had the realization of like well, actually, that cuts out a whole bunch of robots straight out of the bat. Wow. Mm. And so, um, the symptom first is what we're, we're, we're kind of going with now because- Of course, the AI's out there searching for- Yeah. AI- Wow AI needs to please its master, its master's symptoms, its master's context. Mm. Um, and in the same way that the person behind there also has a motivation for that day. So there's an emotional aspect with, uh, with the, with the human and, and then there's almost a utility aspect with the robot. Um, one of the things that is kind of exciting, potentially concerning, is, like, at the moment, we don't really know how the LLMs will make those decisions- Mm on utility. My biggest learning in this area, and I'd love to impart this wisdom on others, is- We needed content to engage humans. I think we need context to engage the robots, but also humans are expecting context as well now. Okay. Can you explain what that means? For example, if I was selling umbrella- umbrellas in a full sun day, the context is out. The content was still okay, but I'm not gonna buy an umbrella unless I need one, right? Yeah. So, um, you know, ads that... Ads and media journeys that pay attention to the context around you are really important. For example, you could assume that somebody walking wants to buy a car, but that would be a fatal assumption if they enjoy walking. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, there's some good Tom Fishburne, um, uh, cartoons on useful advertising and stuff like that, that illustrate things like that quite well, I think. And, and how do companies... How, how do they discern the context? Hmm. Is that a, a simple process, or is there... Uh, I, I didn't think it was going to be. It's, it's not simple. However, the- But we've actually been doing this for a very long time, and the people who have been really good at this are actually brand marketers and brand strategists. Mm-hmm. More often than not, when they create a, um, persona, like a Sally, a John, or a Craig, um, they were trying to get into the context of three people with three personas. I think where we need to go now is getting that up to a hundred or a thousand. Wow, okay. Where the context of someone searching cheap, cheap home loans or, uh, cheap car insurance is very different to someone looking for, um, car insurance with new for old, for example. Yeah. And so I think we can use media signals and persona-based, um, theory to sort of enrich those and create multiple context situations. Right. When you say media signals for our listeners, what does that mean? So media signals would be things like, um, you know, a search that someone's put in, or whether they've gotten to a complaints page on your website means they're probably gonna complain, right? That's, there's a signal there, I guess. Yeah. And, um, there's this notion of, of signal loss at the moment with marketers, which is essentially, um, that some of the black boxes that we're using, like your Google Ads and your Meta's that, you know, uh, with Performance Max and Andromeda, are basically not telling the marketer or the business how they're getting the click. Yeah. And so you're missing that context. Yeah. And so I think it's... They obviously work as great platforms, but the trade-off is you won't work- you won't be able to see what that context is. And so from our perspective, I'm trying to help brands create some more context by asking their customers where they're at. For example, you might go onto a skincare page, a skincare brand, and they might quiz you and triage your skin concern- Mm-hmm as opposed to hoping that Google knows their skin concern. Right. Mm-hmm. Hope that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, again, if for our listeners, if they're going, "It all sounds just too overwhelming and too complex and too hard"- Is there light at the end of the tunnel there, Phil? In, in that it sounds hard, but is it really in practice as complex and multi-layered a- as it seems? I've gi- I've, I'm, I, I guess I'm asking for some hope here that it isn't a, a jungle out there that's impossible to get through. No, I can give you some hope, yeah. It's good. Okay. Um, and essentially I would say that AI has, has and will enable us to do this much easier than we ever- Okay wanted to before. Yeah. And in some ways, I feel the vision I set seven years ago of making advertising useful, not annoying- I f- feel like in ways it's manifested itself into, well, the only way to do that was with robots. Like- Yes like, the only way we can have one-to-one ads is with- Yes robots. You can't scale any other way. Yeah. And in 2019 that wouldn't have been possible, right? Definitely not. It was getting better. Yes. It was getting better, but there was lots of limiting factors in the fact that, you know, my ad creative agency, the people who make the actual ads, if, if we said, "Hey, can we have 100 variants of that?" They would've probably la- laughed at us. Yes. Yeah. Um, but now, you know, with things like Nano Banana and whatnot, we can pretty much create an ad for Steve. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Interesting. One of the, the sayings that, um, I've heard from you is that only dead fish go with the flow. Um, what does that mean to you, and how has that mindset shaped the way you've built Intenda or even how you approach business and marketing? I think it's kind of... It's become a bit of a guiding principle in, in the fact that- My biggest watch out is am I people pleasing here, or am I trying to be like everyone else? And every time I end up doing those two behaviors, I notice that my cut-through or my impact is a lot lower. Uh-huh. And so I don't necessarily wanna swim with all the other salmon going up the stream- Yeah necessarily. Um, I'd like to go in the other direction so that we can get some clear space and that we can hone in our impact. And so dead fish going with the flow is pretty much used daily when we're trying to ideate and trying to ideate ideas that are unique, but also multiply them with things that are, you know, working, I guess. Mm. Okay. And that, does that expand thinking? Does that expand possibilities to- Totally D- And does it make the work more interesting because you're, I guess, you're looking outside the box straight away? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, like, the next follow-on question is what are they not doing, is the, the next question I n- normally gravitate to after reminding myself not to be a follower and to try and be a leader. Yeah. Um, and that's where I think you come up with the best kind of new thinking for clients. And, and in this world where AI can give us, like, mean and average and mediocre responses- Mm-hmm clients are still wanting our brains and sense checking more than anything. And so as a result, we've, we've had to pivot slightly to go back to our roots of consulting and advisory, as well as implementation- Mm as well. And so more often than not, clients are going, "We're, we're, we're gonna do the content ourselves now. We, we know enough. Thank you for that. Can you set us up a content engine that will work? But also, can you keep giving us new ideas- Mm to fuel that engine?" Which has basically meant our hourly rate's gone up- Yeah but our time on account has gone down, if that makes sense. Yes. Which is still a great win-win for us anyway, I would say. Yeah. And, and that whole pivot, that whole change has come from that philosophy of only dead fish. Well, I suppose so. Flow. We- weirdly, I discovered it was on, like, some postcard in my... I think I was in year eight or something, been to the library at school, and it just seemed to be some sort of- statement. I wouldn't say it was an affirmation, but something along the lines that's just, it's just in there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. What, what I find interesting about that, that's two references you've made to your early teen years. Mm. Those formative years that have pretty much shaped your adult life, which is- Oh an interesting thing for an entrepreneur. My inner child has to drive this ship, I think. He's very... He is the curious one, and the one that wants to sometimes people please. Yeah. But, um, I would say it, that's where the best dopamine comes from, and also where my best purpose comes from as well, I would say. Right. When you say please your inner child, what does that mean? Oh, no, I'd actually say, uh- Yeah the, my inner child wanted to please others. Uh, yeah. Others. Actually, no, let, tap into your inner child or y- or use your inner child. What do you mean by that, like? Um, just pick a- How c- And what I mean by that is how can our listeners take that and go, "Ooh, there might be something in that for me"? Mm. Explain that whole concept to us. Essentially, I would say what life does to us as we get older, um, it, our ego and our shadow, I suppose, if you're into that stuff- Yeah um, they basically are at loggerheads with each other, with you the person in the middle. And what I'm learning more and more as I go deeper into this and, and the self-work is that- Those two more often than not have to be at loggerheads with each other. Right. And so when I go back to a time in my life when they were not, it was when you were younger and generally you knew who w- you were. So say if I go into a meeting with American Express now, I'm, I'm not inner child Phil- Mm being childish. I'm adult Phil trying to, trying to add value. However, you know, at, at the top there is still those guiding principles I, uh, that are helping me make the right decisions based on my, my inner values that I've had, which is be curious, um, be people first, which is also robot first now, but, uh, and then also be consultative, which is just to help people with multiple options. Hmm. Okay. Um, one of the things you mentioned is not being a people pleaser or overcoming that aspect of, of who you are. Mm. Can you talk about that journey? Yeah, it's a long one. Um, it's still pretty fresh as well. Um, but yeah, I, I burnt out pretty bad last year to the point where my ego wouldn't... I had, like, writer's block and strategy block, which was a bit odd. Mm-hmm. Um, but it needed to happen and it was supposed to happen, and I, I hear it's pretty common in your late 30s f- for a lot of people. Um, but basically what I discovered about myself is the reason I wasn't able to recharge my battery is because I was looking for external validations for things that- Hmm my inner child or my inner Phil or whatever should've been giving himself. Okay. And so when you apply that to business, I think sometimes you can make a product because your customers have complained about it. That is an example of people pleasing when you might, you, you probably should be listening to the feedback, but still coming back to what pleases yourself and your brand. Right. And so I think- What makes a great brand is when you, when you pay attention to both, but you anchor it back to what your principles are as a whole. And then again, in business, people pleasing would be you're working with every lead because you, you just need the money. Um, yeah, you might get, you might get what you need today, but later down the track, you know, you, you might not. And so that's why client fit is really important to us. Mm. Um, and making sure that, you know, we've got brands who respect people and respect what we do, but more importantly, respect what we don't do and why we don't do that as well. For example, there's clients who want us to do their ads for them, but it's not something that we, that... It's not something that is core to our, to our, like, um, skill set, and as a result, I could do it, but should I do it- Mm is not. So that probably leads me to the final statement, which I think I picked up in Queensland, to be honest, which was just because you can doesn't mean you should. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Cool. Does that answer your question? Yeah, it does. I've, I've probably got one follow-up. Yeah, sure. Was it hard, um, working through that, um, you know, that people pleasing phase? Mm. And, and what did that look like for you? It's, it's hard because it's a learned behavior, and sometimes you don't realize when you're doing it. But I think, um, what, what is hard mostly about it, I would say, is just that you've- It's something you've probably got to unlearn, and it's probably something you picked up when you- you're quite young. Um, I'm not to say everyone's a people pleaser. There's lots of people that are not. But there's probably an equivalent behavior that you... There's probably an equivalent behavior that's in there that's having a similar effect. That said, though, a lot of founders are people pleasers. Mm. And a lot of the ones that burn out are the ones who have realized, "Oh my gosh, um, why am I actually doing this now?" Um, and again, they're so obsessed with pleasing others and getting external validation that they've sort of lost sight of what pleases them. Mm. How do you get that back? Um, starting to go therapy. Which is great. Um, I would say what I've been learning is, is present moment awareness really. Bringing it back to, like, what you can see, touch, feel, taste, things like that is really quite important. Um, and again, I find it... I, I, I wouldn't say I struggle with it. I'd say it, it's hard, especially for someone like me who's a b- bit neurospicy in the brain, but, like, you know, I don't wanna turn that off. It's my superpower. Yeah, yeah. And so it's kind of allowing, allowing, um, myself to have my needs, which is curiosity. Yeah. Um, and then grounding them into something of, you know, grounding them into, into a process where I can actually, like, give it airtime, um, and al- allow it to sort of come out when it needs to and, and how it should. Mm. All right. It's a real interesting journey, Phil. Thank you for, for sharing that part of it. Um, uh, a- as you've grown or as Intent has grown, um, what has nearly broken first? Was it systems? Was it the people? Or was it the founder? Well, I'd be lying if I said all three at some point have been under pressure. Yes. Thankfully, never all at the same time. Yeah. Um, but let's probably start with systems. I think when, when you're at level one or even just zero, more often than not the systems, they're an afterthought. Uh, if I could turn back time, I would've started a CRM the very first day. Yeah. I would've done the CRM before I even did my vision, mission, and values. Yeah. Um, and still to this day, like, I've changed the CRM recently, um, to HubSpot, which is so much better. Um, and I'm already noticing the benefits, particularly in the, um, you know, 'cause I'm a service-based business- Being, being interested in people is more important than being interesting to people is one thing I've learnt. And so having a connection with people is really important because I don't want every time they see my phone or an email from me for them to think, "Oh, he's just trying to sell us something." Yes. I actually need to make sure that my, my relationship platform with people is actually giving value 80 to 90% of the time, um, so that one of two things happen. Either organically they pick up the phone or email and talk to us, or two, they might even refer us to someone else. And so bringing it back to the previous question of people-pleasing, I did find before that, um Um, I did find that before that I would be trying to, trying too hard, I think, without a CRM- Wow, okay and being a little bit, probably coming across quite intense, I guess- Uh-huh in those, and so that's really helped ground us. Having, having that system and proc- uh, and process in place with the CRM has definitely al- enabled us to sort of do better, uh, content marketing to, to give more than we take. Um, and as a result, comes back to our vision of being useful, not annoying. Mm-hmm. Mm. So the reason I had that vision was to probably ground the annoyance that I could... that would naturally wanna come out of me sometimes as well. Yeah. That neuro spicing that's coming out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what was the second part? Uh, so what broke first? Uh, the systems people or the founder or, or- Uh, I think, yeah, so on the people front, um, when we first started, we had, you know, it was just myself and my wife, and then we hired some amazingly young, talented people as well. And again, they came on the journey with us, which was really good. But then we got to a point where, um, probably the biggest challenge was then we wanted to target more enterprise people and, like, clients that we actually needed the senior rigor as well. And so that was probably a really good learning of, I, I wish I'd got six months ahead of that- Mm in hindsight. Um, and so I think I had some good advisors at the time that were generally helping that, but it didn't click with me that why. And so I was... I think one of the advisors said to me, "Phil, you're, you're acting like a genius with a thousand helpers, when actually that's not gonna scale." And to their point, that, that, that can be burnout territory for people. So I'd say that is, that is a watch-out for founders. Uh- What was the one again? It, you don't wanna be a genius with a thousand helpers. Helpers. 'Cause... Yeah. And so, like the most important hire, without a shadow of a doubt, has been like a GM, um, and, and a head of growth and stuff like that, and then also the, the heads of departments as well. Right. And so now fast-forwarding sort of seven years, I can quite happily play the role of curious founder, innovator, and sales guy without having to worry about people-pleasing the clients to retain them. Mm. If that makes sense. Mm. And then, yeah, the founder did break at one point- Yes 'cause recharging your battery is important. Um, and I think it's Stefan Zeiger, I think is his name. Um, I've come across one of his books recently and, um, he actually only works like nine months of the year to ensure that he has three months to recharge and reconnect- Right with both himself and the world, which I think is quite cool too. Mm. So there's definitely some interesting, um, and useful kind of- modalities out there, I guess- Mm which are kind of cool. And I was gonna ask you that. What do you do to re- to un- unplug or reconnect or recharge? It's weirdly becoming the gym, which I hated the gym all my life, but now I actually quite like it. Yeah. Um, definitely enjoy that. Um, and to be honest, play. I play with both the kids and then little projects and stuff like that. Yeah. That definitely recharges my battery and curiosity. Um, and again, that's weirdly like a inner child- Yeah sort of thing. I'd always get in trouble for taking things apart. Yeah. TV remotes and stuff. Yeah. Um, most of the time I could put it back together. Yeah. Like, yeah, just again, bringing it back down to, like- Sure little Phil loved, like, playing with stuff, and weirdly, that's exactly how I personally find it easy to recharge. Mm. And you almost had to become okay with that. Yeah, totally. 'Cause people were like, "What are you doing?" Wow. Mm. And I'd be like, "I'm just playing." You feel like you can't say that at 38. Yeah. But you can. Yeah. That's totally okay. Yeah. That's cool. And weirdly, clients like it when we are playing in their data and whatnot- Mm and coming up with new product angles for them and stuff. Amazing. And in many cases, new products. Mm. Which is fun, so. Mm. You, you mentioned scaling. Can we dive into that part- Sure of your journey? Because you're, you're, you know, you've a very successful agency, multiple locations, as you mentioned. At the moment, you're at level three, you're moving into level four. So what do founders at levels one and two, I guess, completely misunderstand or even underestimate about growing from a small business to a, quote-unquote, "a real organization"? Mm. I think, I think probably one useful framework for this would probably be the Ps. So people, partner, profit, product, profile, preservation, which is a fancy word for retention. But, um, I'd say bringing it back to those, I think the misunderstanding often, or probably not a misunderstanding, but one that might s- one, one that might whip you for a second here is actually product. Oh. So when you're kind of in level one and two, you think you might have got the product right. But really, the real test is can you scale it, and can you scale it without you? Mm. And so I think, you know, an agency model isn't particularly innovative really. Mm. Um, and it's under serious pressure these days with- Mm you know, um, automation and whatnot. Yeah. Um, and so even seven years in, I'm starting to realize, actually, we don't have small products that are easy to sell, that they could e- like, potentially even buy with a credit card. Mm. Right? Mm. Um, and so product probably is my biggest learning there, and definitely my main focus now, followed quickly by profile. So how, how are, how, how are we perceived in the market? Where do we sit on that like, um, on that chart of, you know, leading, lagging, whatever it is, or, you know, who, who, who are we close to as well? Yeah. Um, and I think probably for- Someone who started, like when I started my career, I didn't really believe in brand. Mm-hmm. I was like, "Yeah, you just rank in Google for SUV and you'll sell an SUV," right? And it was very- Simple, right? Yeah. Easy. To an extent it worked, but I think where, where that kind of notion takes you is there's actually quite a lot of, there's quite a lot of like SEO specialists who really don't get brand as a result. And I think my watch out early was like, actually I need to work with these people, so I need to understand these people. And therefore, um, from product and profile perspective, always, always made sure that we give, give to others and that we are adding value to others. And so partnerships, which is another P I didn't mention, is, is, is probably my advice to level one and twos, get some partnerships. Like if you, if you're not interested in doing one area, find some people that are and look for a win-win between each other. I think it's a great way of getting referrals, and it's a good way of even doing, um, you know, unique pieces of research with each other as well. Hmm. All right, let's talk more about that, the journey personally. You, rather than just being a really good marketer, you, you had to become the CEO, the leader the business needed. And so what did you have to personally, uh, stop doing or even start doing for that transition to be effective? Hmm. I definitely had to stop, um, trying to do everything- Yeah which I think probably would be a very common answer with, with many. Yeah. Um, at the time I didn't know what the right things were though. Yeah. That I needed to stop, start, and continue. Mm-hmm. Um, and so probably the one thing that I needed to stop doing, first of all, was account management. Clients were getting, inadvertently getting a direct line to the boss- Mm and in many ways that meant that I was Only able to feed one mouth at a time. And so the, the next thing I had to start doing was how can I offload and teach and show the others in my business how they could be, you know, 1% better, 10% or 100% better in those areas. And so you become a teacher, I think. Mm. And the best thing is more often than not, the students become better than you, and they go on and do their own thing, and it's great to see those things. Yeah. Um, and yeah, that was probably the biggest surprise, was like, oh my gosh, I actually am a teacher- Mm here. And so spending more time with the people is really important. So to the point, I only really work on the business for two hours in the morning. So like, you know, what the finance is like, what are the, you know, what, what new business is in at the moment, who, whoever I've not got back to. And then the afternoon is very much like, how can I help others? How can I help others think differently? Mm. Uh, and then the occasional meeting as well- Yeah would be in there, too. That, um, that think differently piece is big for you, isn't it? And- Definitely it, it's one of your, it's one of your unspoken drivers almost, or modus operandi- Yeah with your life and with your business. It is. It's also potentially a two-headed snake as well- Mm to a degree. Um, so it needs to be regulated, like all good things. Yeah. Like everything in moderation, including moderation. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. One of the other things you've talked about is key man risk. Um, how do you know when a business has become too dependent on one person? Maybe that was in tender at some point- I'm not sure, but um- Definitely. Uh- How do you undo that, then? Yeah, I think, um, key man risk, uh, was probably s- it's probably something you would hear if you were listening to an Alex Hormozi podcast where he's talking about mergers and acquisitions. Mm. Um, and again, it can really determine the value of a business, and I guess the real litmus test for that at any level is what happens when you go on holiday? Mm. How are the team? How are the clients? How is everyone? And I think I would urge those who are, you know, in teams of four, five and six to start removing themselves from the business to, with the intention of learning and seeing how they go without you. Um, and then when you come back from holiday, it's not so much about them catching you up. You kind of need to catch up with what, what, what worked and what didn't while you were there. Mm. Um, because ultimately, some advice I got recently is that e- even with like a general manager and managing director, you are favored a lot better in a, in an M&A, um, perspective for having those people in there. But if you're founder run and founder led, there's already key person risk there straight away. Mm. The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website, and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, HighLevel Software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere. And HighLevel is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go HighLevel? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial Yeah. Um, business owners, entrepreneurs, founders, they're, they're always making a lot of decisions. Have you got a, I don't know, a framework or a way that you go about making decisions? Because- and, and again, it's a little bit of a paradox sometimes because neuro spicy wanting- Mm-hmm to do all the different things, and yet decisions often have to be very measured, and, um, thought through, and researched, and all of those things. Yeah. Full credit to my general manager and, um, co-founder as well, Morgan, who's also my wife. Um, I think they, they plucked up the courage to sort of bring that to the table once, um, with, with a sense of, "Phil, you're trying to make all the decisions." Uh, and they created a decision-making framework with like, you know, what am I accountable for, what I'm informed about, and I forget the other one right now. But, um, you know, there was, there was a, a third one in there that basically enables me to go, "Okay, I'm just gonna be informed by the decision that the GM's gonna make- Mm-hmm because that's their area." Uh, and it's also just a good way of taking probably 70% of your load off you straight away. Yeah. And so I would urge founders to sort of go, "What do you need to be across? And just be across it." Like, if they want your feedback, they will ask you. Um, but again, what do you need to be accountable for? And again, I've got things I'm accountable for, and they're the... You know, I only have two or three things. Mm-hmm. Um, like product for example, um, but not necessarily product performance. That's what like a head of department is accountable for and I'm informed about. I, I'd say probably, um, I'd be using AI to sort of come up with that kind of accountability spectrum, particularly with your, i- your business leaders with- in your, within your business, and then make sure the whole team are across that. Yeah. It really is good at removing anxiety at all level. Yeah. Okay. Um, just on the GM, Morgan being your wife and your GM- Oh, no, she's the MD, so yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Sorry for any, uh- It's all good a de- demotion there. Yeah. Um, taking work home and, and what does that look like? Do- have you guys got an arrangement where you don't talk work as soon as you walk in the door or? Very rarely. I don't, I... Yeah, I mean, full credit to Morgan. We just hit 12 years married, and we celebrated that. Um, yeah, we celebrated that well, but, uh, w- for the first time we kind of put it on LinkedIn and it kind of blew up a little bit. Mm-hmm. Um, but to be honest, you know, we've got three small children, seven, five, and four as well. Um, because of the children, we don't have time to talk about work really, and- Yeah we wouldn't want to. I think so that's been quite a blessing in disguise. But also because of the accountability framework, I kind of know that Morgan's gonna keep me informed about her area, which is very much finance, people, HR- Yeah and operational integrity and tender, that, um, it means it doesn't need to come home, and the pillow, the pillow talk is probably next to none, to be honest. Yeah. So it can work between couples, it really can. Mm-hmm. Um, I've seen it not work as well. It's quite sad. But, um, it's definitely not easy. Yes. Yeah. Um, y- you speak or have spoken about the power of compounding your small wins. So how has that philosophy influenced your leadership style and the company culture? Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways it's influenced the culture. It's kind of- I guess when you're looking at a client's target that you've gotta hit, it can be really overwhelming to sort of go, "We've gotta double this." Mm-hmm. Um, but really, I think it's LSKD's, um, the sportswear brand, their, their vision's 1% better every day, right? And it's amazing. And again, this, this... It's, it's so powerful to sort of think about those smaller wins, and I think it's, it's James Clear with Atomic Habits, he talks about that too. And so I think read- reading that book was quite life-changing for me. I'm not a massive reader, but it's one of the few that I've read recently. And I think having compounding behavior is, you know, if you change one page every day on the website, you know, by the end of week seven I've been done. Yeah. And if those seven pages now have symptoms and context in them that weren't there before, the ramifications are huge. Mm. Um, and so I think from a compounding perspective, where I'm trying to turn my attention to now is not profile so much, it's actually more product. Um, how can I have compounding products or products that open the door to brands that are small? For example, like a media waste audit is a really great way of helping people rather than going, "Hey, I want your retainer." Yes. Um, and so the compounding imp- impact of the product there is that rather than having to try and sell a huge 12-month, um, process, we're actually able to make a small, small impact early in the business with something smaller. And then I'd say the last little bit of advice or, or learning there really as w- as well is particularly in marketing, getting the gratification of results- Mm to the client- Mm-hmm waiting a month to two months is just not acceptable anymore. Um, they, they need to see wins quick and early- Yeah and see those wins compound. Yeah. And so I think when, you know, around that subject, everything kind of needs to compound, including y- like, your relationship with them, with the client, as well as the results and the output that you're putting through as well. Yep. What does that look like then, telling them of their wins early and quickly? Yeah. So some of the wins can, can be... They don't necessarily have to be, like, financial, but they can be like the, the shoots of growth. For example, if- Yeah if we talk SEO just 'cause it'd be easier, um, you know, you could wait eight weeks to do all your audits and then tell the client what to change, and by that point y- they've already paid two bills, and the CFO's going, "Where's, where's the results?" Yeah. Whereas if you structure your kind of process, uh, you know, some of your quick wins in early, you can get the gratification over to the client sooner, and then the trust is there- Yeah and then that compounds quicker. So that was probably a big learning for us about a year ago, really, where now we really try to put that front and center. And so, and to the point I've even mentioned it in sales recently, because ultimately a lot of the board-led companies need to impress the board. Yes. Yeah. And waiting eight weeks is not, not- Yeah. is a very long time now. Especially aren- now, you know, things are- Mm-hmm you know, things are uncertain in the world, and so I s- I guess that whole- For sure energy is part of that as well. And then again, hooking that back into the CRM and making sure that the- Mm their concerns are in there. And, um, one of, I th- I think a, a guy called Scott Ennis, who was the founder of Switched on Media, um, which was an agency about 15 years ago, he always taught me about three points of contact in a business. You need to y- you can't just be reliant on the one person. You need to go out and compound your relationships with others- Yeah. Mm as well. And I'd say that is really important for all levels of business as well. Yeah. Is again, there could be a key person risk on their end that what happens if they get fired? That means you're probably gonna go as well. Yeah. Okay. And so again, compounding conversations I think are important and, and, and then that value too. Mm. Right, can we dive into data-led storytelling at scale? Sure. Uh, y- you're currently working on that as, as, as one of your projects. So what does that mean in practice, and, and why do you think most businesses get it wrong? Oh, um, if we bring it back to storytelling, and obviously I know you've written books, so I feel like a bit of an imposter right now. Um- I'm al- I'm, I'm always, Phil. Bring me along. I feel that, um, when we th- when we think about some of the greatest creatives in the world and, you know, huge people in the business like Rory Sutherland, who's ex Ogilvy, um, where PR and creative have always been much better than media is the emotional- Mm leadership. Mm-hmm. And I think l- look, there may be some frameworks and some shortcuts for some of those, but I think ultimately what they, what they, what they are good at is storytelling, and storytelling still follows multiple formats, and again, Hero's Journey is probably like the most common one, right? Yeah. Um, and I think when what we're trying to do with data, both from a, a sales per- perspective for us, is make sure that, you know, w- it's not just dribs and drabs of, oh, these keywords are bad in SEO, or this audience isn't working in SEM, or this, this digital out of home buy is not relevant because of X, Y, Z. It's but what's the thread between those? Mm. And then how, how do we, how do we structure that into a strategy that follows like a journey such as an ambition, a barrier, and a challenge? And then I'd say for us, telling that, telling that, um, with data is again, making sure those data points follow that succinct approach. All right. So typically- That would, that would be how I would do data-led storytelling at a business-to-business level. But when it comes to, like, the ads and the experiences that Joe Bloggs on the street sees, the probably the most fought over asset in any client's business is their homepage. And thank goodness we're not seeing carousels so much anymore. Um, but if you wanna know about carousels, you should go to shouldiusecarusel.com and just read the stats. Um, but, um, what we're trying to help with the data storytelling now is that we're having more, more, um, doors into the brand. Um, so the front of house is the homepage, uh, and then making sure that there's more entry points, um, at other levels which have a unique, um, emotional response or data point to help support that. When you say entry points, what does that mean? Yeah. So if you're, say, you're... Let's use the SUV example, it's just my go-to. Um, you're looking for an SUV, um, you probably expect to land on the home page or the SUV page of Toyota or, or a brand like that, right? Yeah. But if you're looking for an SUV with massage seats- You might have massage seats in the features of a, of, of a product, of a car, a specific model. But what if you've all of your cars have got massage seats? Maybe you should have a page that is about the massage seats and why they're so good to drive with, and here's the models that have them. I would say the data there would support that, um, you know, people who've Googled that query of cars with massage seats are expecting to get that answer. And so when they don't get it, the data would suggest, you know, your bounce rates are high. People are leaving the site within a few seconds. Um, and so the data-led storytelling there is if we make a granular mini story or, you know, a mini, um, point there that the data's saying, "Oh, they're actually, they're actually staying for a minute, and they're going to other pages." Um, and that's what I mean by data-led storytelling. We're trying to make sure that those data points go to the right places in the business as well, like the product people- Mm-hmm the brand people as well. And that is the real battle. Like SEO used to be something you do to a business. Now it's something you do with a business. Or sorry, something you do to a website. Now I'd say it's something you do with a business- Mm so to speak. Mm-hmm. Um, it really, a lot of the reasons why brands are not performing well is because the people who made a decision, like the product team or whatever, just were not informed- Right at the time. Right. Um, I did have a realization recently as well. I was like, brands that need to spend money in marketing ultimately have a bad or average product. Right. Whenever the product is really good, you rarely need that much media or marketing. And so I think that's why we've kind of creating Intendo Advisory so that we can help clients sharpen their axe before they go down that route. Uh. Um, which is exciting 'cause, like, doing desk research around what people are interested in and what products you can make is actually really fun. Really fuels the curiosity as well. Mm. Um, and ultimately, brands can learn a lot from what people want in search and what people are talking about in social, um, to, to shape what they're doing. So I guess, uh, advice to, like, level one, two, and, you know, I'd, I'd love to be honest, is go back to the basics and check. Mm. Like, do you have a product gap? Against the current demand. Mm. Um, yeah. It's like, that's interesting. Go back to the basics. That seems so simple, doesn't it? Um, yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, let's talk about the future of marketing. Mm. As someone who, let's face it, Phil, is at the cutting edge, and you have your finger on the pulse of marketing, what, what does the future look like? Um, I would say the future looks, the future looks really bright for marketing, I think. Um, it looks like we're going to be seeing a lot more personalized journeys to products, which excites me. Um, we're gonna be seeing less media waste, which excites me from a mental health perspective. I think, you know, with m- Meta getting that case, um, against them that, you know, it's damaging to mental health, I think it's actually, it's a great thing to hopefully be dialing down some of the intensity- Mm um, of that. Like for example, I don't know who decided to ha- the Reel format and who decided to make them repeat, but someone did. Mm. And- Mm there, there is a, there is an impact of that. And I think the future in marketing as well would be- Yeah, the future in marketing will, will improve drastically through the, through the data that we're getting. Um, and I like to think of... I think we're really at a preface this right now over like, you know, GPT recently launched ads. Those ads for me, I kind of compare them to like going to confession and- talking to the priest. Yeah. Opening up everything. However, on the wall is an ad that like is kind of not what we were talking about. Right. Yeah. Which again, I think will be under pressure in the future. And from my perspective, I actually think Google's gonna win. Um, I think they're gonna win the battle because- Why? Google's always had the context in the background. It's, it's an intent platform. It always has been. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think instead of doing a cost per, a cost per view on the ad, I hope they do something like cost per conversation started or- Yeah you know, similar to their cost per click. It's kind of like... Or cost per recommendation. Mm-hmm. I think 'cause paid media is still... Paid media is not gonna go anywhere. You've only got to Google something like car insurance to see there isn't- Yeah there isn't actually a AI response at the top. There's an ad. Yeah. Um- Yeah the big networks need to protect their revenue, and that's ultimately why they exist. So, I do think the, the future of advertising will be under pressure across paid, owned, and earned. Like paid, paid needs to survive. At the moment, it's under pressure because people are cognizant of like AI ads and people, um, getting their answers without needing to, to click an ad. Yeah. But then conversely, owned and earned media is under pressure because we can't quite get the reach. Mm-hmm. So the only real antidote for all three of them is to get really granular- Mm-hmm with what people want, like, and desire. Mm-hmm. Which is, kind of what... Like we're toying with the idea that Intendo is probably more of a platform and a way of marketing than it is an agency. Right. As well. That's, um, quite a nuance, isn't it? Yeah. A pivot almost. Yeah. Um, we're hearing that GEO and AEO are dead. Um, w- firstly, what are they, for the listeners who don't know- Oh what they are and why are they dead? Well, let's go back to the last time I was here, where you wanted me to talk about why SEO is dead. Yes. Um, which I, I think is quite funny. I think that my pers- SEO's not dead? SEO is not dead? According to Google two weeks ago, GEO, AIO, AEO, they're all just SEO. And I think why those new terminologies have come forward is- Um, if we cast our mind back to when social media came out, there was a big battle in the professional services and, and media industry to say- Yeah who owned social. Um- Yeah PR believed it was them. Mm-hmm. The media team believed it was them. Creative teams believed it was them as well. Yeah. Um, and I think fundamentally we've seen that come around again. Um, generative engine optimization, which is GEO, is basically different to search engine optimization because instead of trying to optimize for a list of people, we're actually trying to optimize for inclusion in an answer. Right. Yeah. Um, answer engine optimization is taking that a little bit step further, which is you might not necessarily get a click, but you're trying to change the, the, the, the snippet that comes at the top or the response in GPT that is the answer to the question. Now, you could argue that there's people out there trying to, trying to say, trying to change the answer of four plus four equals nine. Yeah. Like, that you could argue that would be answer engine optimization. Yeah. But, um, in some cases it's possible and in, in others it's not. And then AIO is basically AI optimization, which from my perspective, they all fit under the same umbrella of in- uh, intent marketing. Intent marketing. Right, marketing answer. Um, which is a real shame that we don't seem to have that as the words to describe them because I think you lose a lot of the humanity when you say, "Oh, you know, it's just SEO." It's not just SEO. Yeah. It's, it's finding the right person who had the right intent, and they're telling you, and they could be the best customer you had all week. Mm. It's, it's kind of, it- it's a real shame to sort of- pigeonhole it like that, so to speak, I think Um, it's, it's an interesting nuance, or, um, to call it, you know, intent marketing. It's, um... But you're right, that's, that's what it is, right? That- Thanks. Yeah. And I think that, uh, it gives rise to interest marketing, right? Yeah. So, you know, if you're a gardener or if you're interested in motorsport, you're interested in it, right? Yeah. It doesn't mean you're gonna be buying a new shovel or a new car. And so I think brands, when they start to shift their mindset a little bit more to thinking about intent and interest, they actually can, they actually can add a lot of value- Mm to those. Um, so even if you're, even if you're a level one business at the moment and you're doing something really niche, um, f-for example, you might be a, a plumber. You have, as, as a plumber, you have the right to talk about plumbing as a whole, and you can talk about it commercially for people who need a tap fixed. Mm. But you can also talk, talk about it non-commercially around, like, you know, why certain materials need to be used, uh, than others and, and again, do thought leadership. Mm. So that then gives rise to the third one, which I would say is inspiration-based marketing, which to be honest, the world is pretty good at. Some of the best creatives, and like, you know, Disney's an inspiration-based brand, like storytelling brands. Coca-Cola does the same to a degree in their marketing. Yeah. Um, and any kind of creators, I would say deal in inspiration. But I think, you know, the, the difference between a, a reel that is talking about a problem that needs to be solved versus a reel that's trying to entertain, versus a reel that's, which would be inspiration, or a reel that's in the middle, which is around interest, that's, that's kind of where the art comes through, I would say, and where brands kind of need to, kind of need to pay attention to that. Uh, another example of that is, like, you'd be surprised how many people are using TikTok and Instagram as a search engine now. Mm. And the content that you're making to go viral Isn't really the content that should be showing up for intent that's been expressed. So if I was searching car deals Brisbane in TikTok, I would expect to see some car deals in Brisbane, right? Right. But is the content there? Probably not. Um, data suggests that, you know, and there are ways of getting data. You can go to keywordtool.io, and you can get TikTok search volume. Mm-hmm. Meta didn't really share it, unfortunately, but again, TikTok's good enough, and I think they get it around this social search thing of intent and interest, that again, my advice to brands would be that, yeah, you might be trying to get leads on SEO and SEM, but you could also probably go and do an evergreen video at TikTok around the problem that you solve as well. Okay. Let's talk about AI a little bit deeper here. Sure. AI in business. Um, so beyond the hype we're hearing today, um, how do you see AI changing the way businesses do operate in the future? I think the, the one thing probably everyone would, would be able to agree on is that we have all devalued our own services as a result of AI. Mm-hmm. Lawyers, uh, lawyers now think their marketing team are not doing anything, and the marketing team think the lawyers aren't really doing anything either, right? Which i- which I think is the, the biggest elephant in the room. Yeah. And so that's definitely changed the way that we sell, and is also, if your client's got a little bit of, a little bit of knowledge in what you do, that makes them 10 times more dangerous than they were two years ago. Mm-hmm. Um, because people's BS detectors are being fueled by these. I mean, I often get clients where it's clearly copy and pasted from their AI response. And, uh, again, full respect to them, it's, it's quick and easy. Hmm. Um, but I think where it's really changing the relationships between businesses is like some clients are looking for that spark still, and how you're using it as a result. So one of the things, we've got a couple of tenders out at the moment where we're actually putting our AI agents as part of the team Um, not as more of a cost of sale or a cost of goods or anything like that. Right. We're actually trying to say, "Well, this agent took Phil 25 years to make. Its value is this. It is proprietary, and you can, you can use it, uh, to the extent of 10 credits a month or whatever," right? Yeah. And so I think being transparent about how you're using AI is probably the best thing you can do, because then it stops the ambiguity with the human being you're trying to work with. Yes. Um, and then you have an opportunity to lead that. Um, yeah, and then I think with, with automations and process, every- Like, it's changing so fast, but again, I wa- I deliberately paused a little bit on changing too many processes until things had matured and there was better case studies out there. Yeah. I think I must have seen 500 new marketing tools in AI in the last three months at least, right? Every one of which was the ants pants for... All you needed to have, et cetera, et cetera. Totally. And I, again, most of those are not gonna survive. Mm. Like, unfortunately. I, I've invested in a couple, and hopefully these ones are really good inch wide, mile deep ones. Yeah. But I think where, where the collision course with those kind of AI processes is most people are actually trying to build their own proprietary inter- internal one. Mm. So it was very rare to see a marketing or a media company say, "We've got proprietary tech around"- Mm six or seven years ago. Now everyone's got it. Yes. Uh, and when you're googling the word media agency, everyone's an award-winning agency. Yeah. And so it's kinda like- Dead fish Mm-hmm And so I'd say, you know, if you wanna go with the flow, we tend to not really swing our reports around and Right Even though the tech we've had's, like, been around since we started- Yeah it's still what you do with it that's most important Mm. It's really, you come back to the dead fish, it's a really interest- interesting one, isn't it? Always look for, is this a dead fish moment? Right? Mm. Yeah. Like, if, um, you know, for ex- I th- I think it was in the UK, I, I saw a similar example of all the award-winning agencies, and then, like, an ad at the top was just like, "We don't need awards. We've got to, to prove our worth. We- we- we've got a money back guarantee," or something like that. Mm. Again, you could undermine the competition there. Mm. Um, and so another good use of AI f- for us is I, I love giving it what I think was perfect and then getting it to break, getting, asking it to break it and think left and right. Yeah. Um, so it's become, like, you know, it's become very important to help synthesize or simplify- Mm and automate to a degree. Mm. All right. For our listeners out there, if someone was running a business like Intenda, but they were two or three years behind where you are now- Mm what's a shortcut or a cheat code that you would tell them? Ooh, that's a good question, Steve. Um, a shortcut or a cheat code, I would say know your product, um, know your, know your product and its limitations and what symptoms it solves. Mm. And then when you know that, make sure you put that front and center in all of your touchpoints. Mm. There's no greater travesty, I think, than selling the dream and then the team forgetting what they sold to the client. No. Um, and so I'd say bring, bring back what you sold, sold and what you solve into every touchpoint with the client to the point where we we're about to put, um, key stats on our invoice. Love it. Which is quite tricky to do in, um, the finance platform that we use, which is probably what half the businesses use in the country. Mm-hmm. But we wanna do it so that when they get the ultimate gratification, which is paying for the work we did, they actually do see the value of- Mm what we provided at the end. Um, but yeah, we'll, we'll see how that little test and learn goes. Mm. Um, yeah. Anything else on that one? Um, no, 'cause it, it's an interesting one, though. When that drops in, is there a cheat code? Is there a shortcut? There's not. We all want a shortcut, right? Now, here's a... I w- I want a magic pill, right? That's what- Ah. Um- What, what other things you got for us? It is tricky. You're gonna have to help weasel this one out with me as well. Yeah. I think, um, another cheat code, well, definitely do what everyone else is not doing. Yeah. So again- If people are not offering money-back guarantees, maybe look at that. Um, I found one of the most impactful things was skin in the game. So, um, particularly in America, this seems to be working really well. If, if we don't deliver, we get a penalty of X. Mm. If we do deliver over and above, we get a reward of Y. Okay. It really helps- That's neat remove the trust, which I would say anyone who's starting an agency or started one recently, um, trust is the biggest challenge- Yes you're gonna face in the first two years. Everyone's been burnt, right? Everyone's been burnt. Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of the talent that's starting agencies has been made redundant by some of these amazing brands. Mm. Um, and also y- your network will eventually dry up. Mm. Um- Everyone runs out of friends, right? Eventually. Like, you know, they're like, "I didn't work with you..." You know, if you- the people you've worked with in the last year are probably gonna be your biggest referrers. So I'd say another cheat code is give them something for it, you know? Um, Uber created their business by creating a referral program between cabbies. Mm. At one point, they were giving 300 US dollars per person signed up. Mm. And so I think there's no shame in, um there's definitely no shame in, uh, rewarding people who are gonna stick their neck out there, because ultimately you might, you might screw up, and then you make them look bad as well. Mm. So value your referral. It is arguably more valuable than any paid media cost per acquisition figure you're dealing with, I would say. Okay. Hm. All right. Um, what's keeping you up, uh, at night at the moment? Um, I'd say AI, for sure. Yeah. Both, um, from an impact on humanity, but also, you know, the impact on the market. Um, because again, you're looking at market growth figures like, you know, media is still growing at 8 or 9%- Mm um, per year in most markets, and so you'd expect to see your business growing 8 to 9%. But things are quite lumpy, I would say, for most. Again, I was at a, an event in Cannes recently with lots of people in the industry, and you could tell, you could tell who was being honest and then who was in denial. Mm. But nearly everyone is being affected by it. Mm. Uh, but again, CFOs are cautious with budgets at the moment. Mm. And in many cases, most businesses are doing the right thing, which is trying to do this stuff in-house. Mm. And so, yeah, I would say how you diversify and adapt to that is key. Hence, again, Intendo Advisory. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, what's been rather or the darkest moment in your business journey? That, that boss you had to defeat to get to the next stage of growth, and how did you beat it? Uh, I beat him myself, I think. Yeah. Okay. Like, definitely, um, realizing you, realizing that you- You aren't as scalable as you think you are. Um, the ego check, the, the tears, I guess, that come with the team and the clients, like gaining them and losing them. Mm. I'd say it all ultimately ends up at you. Mm. And so the sooner you look in the mirror, I think, and take on board that feedback, um, and the learnings, I think that, you know, the ultimate boss pro- you know, is yourself, I would say. Mm. Yeah. Before we get into the, the rapid fire round, Phil, I'd, I'd love to ask you, and this is probably going into woo-woo type territory. No, it's good. But, uh, one of the things you've, um, we were speaking about off air is, uh, is manifestation and your, I don't know, your journey with that and experimentation with that, because you, you were saying that you can manifest really good things, but you can also manifest really bad things. So can you explain what you understand manifestation is for you, how you've used it in your life and your business journey? Yeah. So I think, um, I think it's incredibly powerful, but it seems woo-woo, and I'm still sort of one foot in woo-woo as well as, like, reality, which I think you should be with anything. You should get- parallel opinions to do those things. But essentially, if you say you're no good at your job, and you keep saying it to yourself, more often than not, you're gonna end up being no good at your job. Mm. And I think that mindset probably more than... The mindset is probably the more high street friendly word to describe manifestation. Yes. Um, but like, again, you can improve that slightly by just going, "I'm not, not good at my job yet." Yeah. Again, you've just started something. And again, uh, imposter syndrome is something all founders go through at some point. And if you don't, I would say you're probably lying. Mm. Um, and I guess when you see those behaviors, you've gotta be really careful the story you're telling yourself. Yeah. Um, I definitely haven't cracked it. Um, it's all well and good to say, "I wanna manifest that I, I wanna work with this brand." And you can kind of do that to a degree, but I think it's bigger than that. And, uh, ultimately, my biggest tip is have goals. Like, I'm redoing my goals now. I need to. And every time I look at the old ones, I'm like, "What was I thinking?" Right. And technically, more often than not, I hit that goal. But because I didn't think about the ramifications of that, the way I worded it- um, then it can have a negative effect. I think Jim Carrey was on Graham Norton a while ago, and he mentioned that he desperately wanted a red bike when he was a kid. Mm. And so I think someone told him that if he prayed to Mary enough, that he would get it. And he said pretty much ever since that day when he did get the red bike, that's all he's ever done to get wherever he was. Ah. So there's some people out there who've just naturally cracked it. Mm. I'm definitely not one of them. Yeah. Um, but then I'd argue there was times where I always wanted to leave the country when I was younger and go work somewhere else. I didn't know that was Australia. Mm. But a- again, it can be quite powerful there. So I think taking time to really think about what, what you What you would like to see from the universe, I guess, and being very particular about how you word that. It's quite important to take that time because, again, not only is that just go- is, is a goal for you- Mm-hmm but also you then have, you have the signals and the markers to notice when you're going off piste or when you're shit-talking yourself. Like mu- Yeah. Yeah. But, um, that's really important to sort of notice 'cause you've gotta catch that quick. Yeah. 'Cause otherwise you will, you know... If you, if you say you're gonna lose clients, guess what's gonna happen? Yeah. You're gonna lose clients. How, how important to your success is that? Um, I think when... I think in my younger years I was naturally very good at it. I was very optimistic. Yeah. And then when I've... You know, but I was also in an inch wide, mile deep role. Now I'm in quite a horizontal r- role. It's been really hard to learn because there's so many different moving parts to- Mm being a founder. Yeah. Um, and so I'm starting to see the shoots of greatness there. Yeah. Um, but I would say it's critical to the success. Yeah. As I have it, 'cause it all comes back down to mindset. Yeah. Yeah. And, and mindset and what you're putting out into the world. Yeah, totally. And again, my vision that I put out into the world, it, it, it's pretty good. But like ma- making advertising useful, not annoying, but it could be better and I think it should be better. Mm-hmm. Because there's more that the, the world could benefit from that as, as a result, I would say. And so is that something you will work on over time? Yeah. I think two years ago I would've said, "Nah, I'm solid on this vision." We're good. No, yeah, but like now I'm like, "Ah, nah, we can definitely iterate." And iterations need to happen both in your business and product and even the way you're thinking, I guess. Mm. Yeah. Um, yeah. All righty. Quick fire or rapid fire round. Sure. Phil, you've done this before, so you're a bit of a pro at it. So what we do, just to recap, is we ask our guests to get to know them a little bit better, 10 really quick questions. Sure. I'm gonna get you to answer them in a sentence or less. And, uh, I'm gonna fire them at you really quick. So you ready? Go for it. All righty. So first question, what was your first job? Paperboy. Ooh, paperboy. Early riser or night owl? Uh, early riser. What's your podcast or book recommendation? Um, currently Alex Hormozi. The, I just seem to have connected with it. I didn't really like it before, though. Okay. Android or iPhone? iPhone. Hmm. Best investment you've ever made? Um, my mental health. Okay. Office or work from home? Uh, office. Mm-hmm. One piece of tech you couldn't live without? Um, Apple TV. Apple TV? Mm. Ooh. I, we haven't had that one before, I don't think. Interesting. All right. That's so you can watch the football probably from- Yeah Europe, is it? I think so. What's your coffee order? Uh, large latte. Hmm. Okay. If you weren't doing what you do now, what career would you choose? Oh. Um- Probably a teacher Okay. Hmm. What's your go-to productivity hack? Just get it done. Okay, we haven't had that answer before. That- that's really cool. All right, Phil, thanks very much. So look, if business truly is a game, Phil Oren, how do you define winning? Uh, that's an interesting one. I would say the journey is long, and in the end it's only with yourself. Ooh, interesting, 'cause they do say entrepreneurship is the greatest personal development- Oh um, tool on the planet, so. Yeah. Yeah. Making my hair stand on end with that one. It's true. Mm. Wonderful. Thank you, Steve. All right. Thank you very much, Phil. Where can people find out about you and, uh, Intenda online? Cool. So there's two websites. There's intenda.com.au and there's philiporen.com. Um, I'm probably most active on LinkedIn. I tend to share quite a lot of thought pieces on there and research. Um, yeah. All right. Fantastic. Phil, thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure. It's been a pleasure. It was great having you back again and- Thank you I know we should do this again- Awesome in the future, I think. Thank you. All right, fantastic. That's all we've got time for. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game and check out the playlist for the level of business you're currently playing, because every founder is somewhere on the game board, from zero all the way to $200 billion. Choose your level, and we'll see you next time