LEVEL ONE: Property Founder on Why He Walked Away From a $250K Career to Start From Zero

LEVEL 1: $0M-$1M
START UP AND SURVIVAL STAGE 

In this episode of The Business Game, we sit down with Matthew Nowell, founder of MPAC Property Group, RentFinder Australia, and a new building company focused on cashflow positive investments.  

Matthew shares how he had a $250,000 leadership role in the mining industry before making the life-changing decision to leave it all behind at 39. He opens up about the mindset that helped him embrace uncertainty, why he believes failure is one of the greatest teachers in business, and how networking, integrity and a long-term approach have fueled the rapid growth of his business. 

We also dive into the changing property investment landscape, why Matthew believes cashflow-positive investing is the future, and the lessons he's determined to pass on to his children about backing yourself and creating your own path. 

Whether you're thinking about changing careers, building a business from the ground up, or looking for a fresh perspective on property investing, you don't want to miss this episode.

Let’s dive in,
With Matthew Nowell: 

• Walking away from a high-paying career to start a business 
• Why failure is essential for long-term success 
• Building a business through networking and relationships 
• The importance of staying true to your values 
• Creating cashflow-positive property investments 
• Balancing entrepreneurship with family life 
• The mindset required to reinvent yourself at any stage of life 

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to The Business Game and leave us a review. New episodes every week featuring founders and business leaders sharing the lessons they've learned at every level of the game. 

Connect with Matthew Nowell:
Website: https://www.mpacpropertygroup.com.au/
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/matthew-nowell-93a05491 
 

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https://www.gohighlevel.com/?fp_ref=ribu88 

This episode contains affiliate advertising. The Business Game Group is a GoHighLevel affiliate. If you sign up through the link in the show notes, we may earn a commission at no additional cost to you. 

Transcript

0:00

I'm from 250K a year to nothing. If, if this business goes bust and I need to earn money, I'm more than happy to clean toilets. Move your ego aside. I'd rather earn the $8,000 multiple times than earning the $100,000 and only doing it once. I look at life, um, in a- anything I do, there's only two options, failure or succeed, and I ain't scared of the failure in any way. My biggest risk is, is losing the good people that I have around me, like, like staff, and I will do whatever. I'll move mountains to make sure those people stay on board, stay happy, and stay focused. Oh. This is The Business Game. Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to $200 billion, so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level one, which sits in the zero to $1 million bracket, the founder, startup, and survival stage. At this level, you're proving the model works. You're validating demand, refining positioning, and fighting for consistent revenue. The challenges? Doing almost everything yourself, hiring your first team member, and stepping from practitioner into CEO. The goal? Turn expertise into traction and build momentum that's repeatable, not accidental Welcome to The Business Game. I'm Kalina Stano. And I'm Steve Plummer. And before we get into it today, don't forget to like and subscribe to The Business Game. Today we're joined by Matthew Nowell, founder of MPAC Property Group, RentFinder, and a new building company focused on cashflow positive investments. But his story didn't start in property. Matt started in the trades, working his way into the mining industry, and climbed into a leadership role earning $250,000 a year before making a decision most people would never make, walking away from it all at 39 to start from scratch. Since then, he's built a growing property business through pure networking and hustle, all while raising a young family and building with one mission in mind, to show his kids that it's never too late to change direction and bet on yourself. All right. Inspiring story today, Kalina. Yeah. Let's dive in with Matt Nowell. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for having me on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Really excited- Yeah to dive into this conversation and really, uh, learn a little bit more about positive, uh, cashflow, uh, properties. That, I think everybody's keen to- Yeah. Absolutely hear about that. It's al- it's almost a unicorn, right? It does feel like a unicorn. We get them. It doesn't really exist. Unicorn property. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That could be your label. Yeah. All right. So, um, Matt, let's jump into your origin story. Can you walk us through, uh, a bit of your timeline? So let's say we hit rewind on your life. Um, what are the chapters that led you from your childhood to sitting here as the director yeah. Look, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's been quite a journey from, um, from definitely childhood. Yeah. So raised with, um, obviously mum and dad there and all that kinda stuff. Went to school. Hated schooling. Yeah. Hated schooling. Didn't do the best, but didn't put in the work. Uh, left school and my old man pretty much said, "You gotta go get an apprenticeship." "Okay, what do I do?" And he goes, "Just go get one." So next minute, walk into an apprenticeship, um, board and they go, "Here's a carpentry apprenticeship." I'm like, "Okay, we'll start that." Started the next day and, yeah, finished my apprenticeship. Um, started my own little business. Uh, got married. My wife, um, wife at that point in time, we, we, she couldn't get work. She finished her, uh, education degree, so she applied for Groote Eylandt in the Northern Territory. Wow. We were only meant to be up there for six months, uh, but it ended up being 12 years, and I left the carpentry world and went into mining. So starting right at the bottom, blast crew. Wow. Good little industry. Yeah. Fun. Fun times had in there. And then just worked my way through and got into, um, by the end of it, it was, uh, port road haulage coordinator of, um, port road haulage up there. Fun journey in mining. A lot of experience, a lot of, um, coaching, leadership development- Yeah personal development, all those kind of things, which you're sitting in there going, "This is a waste of time. I don't need it." Right? Yeah. Yeah. "I don't need... I know how to talk to people." Yeah, yeah. But it got to a point we had to leave Groot Eiland. Uh, s- I continued doing FIFO for three and a half years. Um- That's tough. Yeah, but FIFO, yeah, it isn't f- it isn't for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. And it, it wasn't working for my family. Mm. Um, so one morning, or one night I turned to my wife, I said- Gotta give something else a crack. Yeah. 'Cause I always said to her, "Fifo, if it doesn't work, I'm out." Mm. And it wasn't. Yeah. Um, I'd started setting up, um, Impact beforehand, like getting the licenses and all that kind of stuff, helping mates out buy, buy houses. And, um, it's just like I got that job satisfaction back that I got when I was building houses. You look back at the end of the day and go, "Look what I've done." Yeah. Yeah, okay. And that's, and that's a big thing for me. In mining, we, I never got it. Yeah. Nice. Um, so then pretty much went back up to Groot, handed my resignation in, and started MPAC Property Group. Um, gone from 250K a year to nothing. Yeah. Mm. Wow. But the best thing I did in that time was start networking beforehand. Got in with, um, started talking to people about self-managed super funds, and I found a real gap. Obviously mining, higher wage earners. Yes. Super's are a bit higher. Yeah. And before I left, pretty much just started handing my business card out to everyone around the mine site. Smart. So smart. Obviously, no experience other than my personal, um, investment experience that I've been doing for, since I was 21, been buying and selling properties. Um, but I had a few people there that gave me, gave me a go, reduced rate. Um, I remember sitting there signing my first client up at a little piano in front of my bed in the office, and I'm just sitting there going, having the meeting while I over- Humble beginnings. We call that humble beginnings. And it's just growing. Um, it's more than what I ever thought, right? Amazing. More than what I ever thought. Like, been able to put some staff on now and all that kind of stuff. Now 18 months in and it's the best decision. Got family life back. Yeah. Um, home for the kids. Get to drop them off at school. Yeah. And... Which is the most important thing for me. Not for everyone, but for me. Yes. It was either keep moving up in mining or, and lose my family, or just jump in and show my kids you can actually change and do, change direction in life and it's, it's working and it's going well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, congratulations. So I wanna go back if we can, Matt, to that moment. I mean, you gave up a secure 250, quarter of a million dollar salary. Mm. And I'm, I'm sure there's people thinking, you know, listening, going, "Are you insane?" Yeah. The golden handcuffs. Yeah, absolutely. Like- 100% it's secure, it's safe, it's big money. Yeah. Um, you know, might not be outstanding money, but it's big money. Yeah. Um, you know, certainly way beyond any kind of subsistence kind of, you know, week to week. Um, what was actually going on inside your head the moment you made that decision? I think one of my biggest strengths is I don't look back. Okay. All right? As soon as I make a decision with anything, um, I pretty much just go, "All right. Now that's behind me, let's move forward and see how, how we work with it." Yeah. Um, I l- I look at, I look at life, um, in a- anything I do, there's only two options: failure or succeed. Yeah. And I ain't scared of the failure- Yeah in any way. So yeah, pretty much that's all it is. Like, just see, give it a crack, see how we go. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna ask you about that. Why aren't you scared of failure? Look, I've never been scared of failure, but the reason why I'm not scared of failure is because I look at it as, as, I look at it as a learning. Mm. Right? There's nothing wrong with fail- failing in life, um, as long as you can overcome it- Yeah and go, "Okay, that didn't work out. Now what can I learn from that mistake or that failure that I can now change and make it work again?" Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I failed multiple times in my life. It d- it doesn't matter, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's just you just gotta keep going. Yeah. Do you think there's something from your past that sort of brought that into your orbit, or is it just you were just kinda born that way? Yeah, look, I think, I think it's, it's been my mentality- Yeah through life. I'll always give something a crack, whether it's the wrong thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Whether it's the dangerous thing or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I've always given it, given it a go. Um, and I've always been one of those people that as soon as we move onto the next step, next phase in life, I never look back into- Yeah, okay 'cause I feel if you look back, you're always going, "What if I did something differently?" Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. W- w- without belaboring the point, when you made that decision to walk away from the big money and the security, did that deci- did you arrive at that decision over a period of time, or was it just almost one morning, "No, this is it. I'm done"? Mm. So the whole goal was to establish a business, 'cause I was on week on, week off. Right. Okay? Yeah. Establish a business, and then go, "All right. Let's project it out to 12 months. If I can continue doing this week on, week off, and doing work, um, during my week off, uh, for clients- Yeah well, that would be a good thing. I'm financially stable." Yes. Yes. Um, and I can build a business at the same time. Mm-hmm. That was, that was the hope and dream that I could do that, right? But as I said, like, obviously things change in family. Like your, your kids might look at someone else more of a dad than you because you're not there. Mm. Yeah. That, that breaks my heart. So- Yeah, yeah um, yeah, it was just turn to my wife and go, "I'm done." Yeah. And she's like, she was a bit fearful, but she goes- Yeah "I back you 100%." So- Yeah. Amazing. Did that give you confidence then to go ahead and, or more confidence to go ahead and do it? Oh, 100%. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It, it, having a strong foundation beside you in anything you do in life- Yeah, yeah um, makes a big difference in any decision. It makes it a lot easier, because if you've got backing from your best friend- Yeah. Yeah or your wife, like you, you, you, you- Yes, you can still fail, but it's just that one- Yeah hurdle that you don't have to go over. It's that faith, that piece- Yeah of faith. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Mm. So you spent years working your way through the trades and then into a leadership role in mining, um, a career most people would kill for. You said your biggest breakthrough wasn't just showing up to network, it was getting clear on why you were showing up. So you had people dangling high commissions in front of you early on, um, and you made a conscious decision to walk away from that. Um, for other founders playing at that level one right now, um, why is getting clear on your why so important, do you think? Yeah. So it, it, it pretty much started before I, like, when I started the business, right? So I, I really wanted to go, it doesn't matter how much money I do or don't earn, I wanna be humble- Yes and I wanna always give back to the community. Yes. Right. All right? Um, so even before I got my first client, I started sponsoring the sporting clubs around our local community. Yes, okay, bit of twofold thing. You're sponsoring a club, you're getting your net brand out there, you're potentially gonna get clients from it- Yeah but it's also giving back to a club that actually does need it, right? Yes. Um, but I always said that I can't be driven about the dollar value- Mm because from my experience, obviously it was never been the dollar value in mining, but from what I've learned is that it starts- uh, making it a bit cloudy of which direction I wanna go into. Yes. So when I was first starting out networking, and that's pretty much what I said to my wife in the business, the first year is just grind about networking. I don't care whether I get one client on, I don't care whether I get 10 clients on, it's just networking and meeting new people. And you do find out there that there is a lot of companies out there, right or wrong, but they're offering, like, commissions of 80 to $100,000 for a deal. Yeah, right. Um, and this, at this stage I was only charging $8,000- Yeah. Wow to g- to get this done. So- That's a big difference without even the client knowing, I could have pushed to that 80 to $100,000. But I couldn't do it for a client because I couldn't value it up properly. Mm. Right? I, like, it wasn't right for the client because what, in any industry, but e- especially in, in my industry, it's about we're doing right for the client. Yeah. Like, if we start thinking about ourselves, we're just only gonna start thinking about the dollar value, and yes, that's going to be- Mm really good in short term- Mm but it's about that s- for me, personally, it's about that slow grow, building the fou- foundations and just, just getting through. Yes, you may not earn as much money, might be tighter at home, but it will work out in the end and, and- Mm it has. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah. So how hard was it to make that decision for you? It sounds like it was pretty easy, but, you know, from a financial's perspective, even just as a business owner, you're looking at the numbers and you're going, "Okay, well, this is my competitor and this is what I'm charging. There's a big gap there." How did you sort of wrestle with that and land? It, it wasn't easy. Yeah. It was only until I started navigating down, clients down the 80 to 100K passage- Mm that I'm like, then I started getting those second thoughts going, "Is this really right?" Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Um- Well, as in morally right? Morally right. Yeah, okay. 'Cause that's what I, like- Mm that's what I've tried to build my life on- Yeah i- is trying to be ethical as m- as ethical- Yeah as I can. Yeah. Um, obviously there's things that, that do try and block you from getting there, but I, I, oh, I, I would lie awake at night going, "Is this the right thing? Is this the right thing?" Yes, it changes my life straight away- Yeah but I'd rather earn the $8,000 multiple times than earning the $100,000- Yeah and only doing it once and then it just, the client's not happy, bad reviews, all those kind of things. Yes. It's just... And the good thing about it was I started initially working with people I knew. Yeah, that's a good way to do it. Right? May have been different if I had have started working with people- I don't know. Mm. Mm. But because you wanna do the right thing for people you know, because you, they're, they're friends, they're family, they're whatever, right? So you don't wanna do the wrong thing. Yeah. You don't wanna, y- one, you don't wanna r- it's a lot of money, you don't wanna rip them off. No. No. And I, and it just ca- like, just embedded in my business. It doesn't matter. We're not taking any shortcuts. We're not going for the quick dollar. Yes. Like, we just have to keep growing slowly, and it will all work out, so. Yeah. Wow. It was hard. Yeah. I bet. You, you said you, you started off with networking. What does that look like? Where did you go? Who did you see? Yeah, so one good thing, one of my superpowers is probably ADHD and, and able to talk to people. Um, and it was funny. So it, like, the footy club, we'll go back to there. Even before I got into the business, one of the mums there worked for a self-managed super fund, um, in Bulimba there, and she goes, "I'll see if I can get a meeting for you." I'm like, "Okay. Yeah, no worries. Yeah, let's go for it," and- Mm-hmm and had my first meeting there even before I started, and that's how I started in self-managed super fund purchasing. Okay. Um, but then it's, it's, it's about building the relationships with other people. They might like, "Oh, you go- you're going- you might need help with finance. Talk to this person." And there's a lot of people that you talk to that I've spoken to over the last 18 months that all have good value to add to my business. Mm. Yeah. But do I wanna work with some of them? No, probably not, right? Yeah. It's, it's if I can relate to them and I can share information, but a lot of these people in the first couple of months, like, they were helping me out left, right, and center, and it's just created, like, a family- Wow. Yeah um, network that we've got, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You're, you're fairly ambitious obviously, Matt. Um, what's, what's the price of ambition, I guess, that no one really sees? Well, when we talk about why I left mining is, is to, to, to start engaging more as a dad and, and being involved more with the family, right? Yeah. So the price is 14-hour days- Yeah nonstop on the phone. Yeah. And the hard thing is you're on the phone and the son comes in, "Hey, Dad," and I go, "Hey, hey, mate, I'm on the, I'm, I'm, I'm on the phone." Yeah. Right? It's hard, right? Yeah. It's hard to, to, to balance it. Yeah. Um, that's for, for me personally, it's, it's... Like, I enjoy the 14, 15-hour days, um, but I don't enjoy where I have to segregate myself from my family because of work or whatever. So I try and make time for the family as much as I can. Yeah. Have you, have you got that figured out yet? I don't think I'll ever have it figured out. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause that's tough because you sort of- Yeah. Oh, look, I, look, I do have it figured out. Like I, I, I, I coach my son's rugby team. Aw. So I'm on the field. Like during the week, I pick him up, drop him off, pick him up from school- Nice most days of the week. Yeah. Um, so that, that's kind of our time. Um- And that's time you wouldn't have had. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it is just those micro moments that can go so far with kids- Yeah and family, so that's awesome. And building a business for your family often means, you know, yeah, spending that little bit of less time with them. Um, but I'm really interested about the name- Mm-hmm of your business, MPAC. M- MPAC. Can you walk us through those? All right. So, uh- I think, I think one of the hardest things for me was think of the business name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like naming your first child. 'Cause you wanna get it right. Yeah. You want to get it right. You want to get it right. Oh, yeah. And, and really- Yeah what does MPAC stand for in the real estate world? Yeah. Absolutely nothing. Yeah. Um, a lot of people say impact, impact, like they, they, they call it all different names. But, um, the core, the, the core around it was, like as I said at the start, it, it, it's, it's about being with the family and all those kind of things. So, um, the M's for my name Matt. Yep. My daughter, my daughter's name's Poppy. Poppy. So P. My son's name's Archer, A. And my wife's name's Kaylie, C. Perfect. And I just looked at it and go, "That's it. Now what do I put on the end of it? I can't just have MPAC, like..." Could've, could've been camp. No one would know what we do. Yeah. It could've been camp. Oh, it could've been camp too. Oh. Yeah. I love that. Well, that's- Yeah yeah, cool. And were they all stoked? Do they all know about it? They do. They love it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, uh, the, they wear all the shirts- All the merch and the jumpers- Yeah and the hats- Oh, yeah and all that kind of stuff. The kids wear- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so you've talked about wanting to show your kids that it's okay to change direction at any stage in life, and I think that you did that at 39 is really cool, by the way. Mm. I just wanna like segue there quickly. Scary. Scary. Scary. Yeah. It's amazing though. Yeah. Um, and so you know that the only two outcomes are failing or succeeding, like we sort of touched on before. You're not scared of either, which is amazing. How much of building MPAC has genuinely been about that message? Um, and how do you carry it with you when things get really tough? yeah, look, I, I think... Yeah, it wa- it was a big step. Um, and to look at it in the way for my, my kids is y- y- we see a lot of p- like, a lot of focus through schooling and all that kind of stuff, right or wrong, is all about going on further education- Yeah or, or trade. Yeah. Okay? Um, there's nothing talking about stepping out on your own two feet and giving it a go. Yeah. Look, I'll look at it and go, "If this change at 39 for me gives anything to my kids," like- Mm like, I, I didn't do well at school, and that's not a focus for me. Like, I've, or we want them to do well at school. But- Yeah. You're like, "This is not about that." But it still shows them that we can step out of a comfort zone. Yeah. It, it's not, it's not about the business- Mm it's about just life. Let's step out of our comfort zone. Backing yourself. Backing yourself. Yeah. And like, I, I'll look at something that I said to my daughter the other day. Obviously, the high school and issues at school, and I said, "You are a Nowell. We do not w- we do not step backwards, we look forwards." Mm. "We keep moving forward." So that's how I kind of bring it in- Yeah into day to day when we, we talk about the business. And my son's been on one of my, uh, Instagram ads- Oh like doing, "Hey, this client did this, this client did that," and- That's rad and bringing them into it. Mm-hmm. Get them involved because it... You never know. Like, I'm not here setting... I'm not doing anything in this business for what we're doing right now, all this hard work, I'm not doing it for myself. Yeah. I'm not doing it for the money. I'm doing it to create a legacy- Yes for my kids. Yeah. That's awesome. Mm. But what about when things get hard for you personally at work, at MPAC? When things are tough, like the budget drop. How do you use that, that mentality that you're, you know, sort of showing your kids? How do you apply that to yourself when you're in those tough moments where things are really hard? Yeah, look, that, that probably there was the hardest news that I had coming in, coming into this industry. Mm. Um, and it's not only going to affect me, it's affecting a lot of other- Everything other industries as well. Yeah. And mums and dads out there. Yeah. Matt, just b- before you answer that, just for our listeners who aren't Australian-based, we had a, federal budget drop that changed rules for investing, for capital gains tax, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that were not announced until that budget. So it's really messed up the market. So for those who aren't in Australia, aren't- Yeah unaware of what we're talking about, it was a government change to policy that really has, I don't know, cat amongst the pigeons, I guess. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And like, it, it, like, the thing is whichever way you look at it, could be good for some people, it could be bad for some people, like investors. Mm. Um, but it's only affected myself, and I look at it and go, what it did for me is I did go into a bit of a- hole. Yeah I like s-separate myself from people. Like, let's just try and work out- Yeah how we're going to navigate this. Yeah. And obviously we've got a, we've had a few things in the pipeline, um, running, so Rent Finder and all those kind of things, so it's given us time to build that- Yeah uh, again. But, like what it did, I'm like, well, I've never liked negative gearing properties. Hmm. I've never pushed for negative gearing. I- I- I've always pushed for cashflow positive or cashflow neutral properties for my clients. Hence our interest at the start, right? Yes. I'm like, "Ooh, hello." Yes, Nicole. Well, I don't know how much I can give away, A mate of mine's coming on soon, soon, another, uh, about to become a BA. Now he's got his builder's license- Mm which does help. Um, it- and I was sitting there going, "Why don't we, why don't we just design a cashflow positive package that we can, we can sell or sell to clients or promote to clients and all that kind of stuff- Yeah where we can own the whole circle?" And it's not about building new houses or anything like that. It's about what can we add to these, uh, these, um, these dwellings- Mm that we can take full control over as a- Yeah buyer's agent and, um, the mate that's building company, that we can make these either cashflow neutral- Mm or cashflow positive properties. And we've got the design there. Like, it's, it's adding extra dwellings. And yes, it's, it's not a new thing. Yeah. And there's, there's, there's, there's big companies out there that currently do do it. but we can do it, and we don't have to charge as much as what these people do for the, uh, the, the sign-off fees or the engagement or the actual commission costs. We, we can do it- Yeah, sure for a relatively good price. Mm. Yeah. Awesome. Uh, okay. So, uh, 'cause I'm really interested in this, right? Mm. Neutral or cashflow positive properties, uh, without giving any, I guess, secrets away, can you talk us through what that actually looks like? Because, you know, land is expensive- Yeah cost of building is expensive. Yeah. How is that possible? Mm. So I'll never, I will never sell anything to a client or, or, or promote anything to a client unless I do it myself. All right? So that self-managed super fund, I wouldn't push that to a client to buy in a self-managed su- super fund until I've done it. It's like the RentFinder, I wouldn't push that... Well, I had to get a client on- Yeah but I did it myself, right? Mm. Yeah. To, for a client. Um, so for th- this, this here, like we've got, let's just s- let's just talk about, uh, the one that we're doing. It's, uh, they bought it two years ago, $600,000. Bribie Island, it was doing about a 4 to 4.5% rent yield, right? So the granny flat model that we're doing is about $200,000 to do a granny flat on the back. Mm-hmm. Um, then we rent both properties out. Mm. Right? We can rent them out individually. Up until recently, that hasn't been the case in Moreton Bay, but they've changed it- Right that we can rent them out individually now. Right, because of the housing shortage, yeah. Um, now we're generating an income, which isn't far off what the main property's renting for. Right. Ah. But what we're doing is, is pretty much making it, uh, NDIS compliant. Mm. Ramps, all those- Wow kind of things. Yeah. That now we've turned that property from a 4.5% rent yield into a 6.5, 7, maybe even 8 by the time it's finished, 8% rent yield. Yeah. So that client there on that property will be making- Minimum $15,000 a year cash into their back pocket. Wow. Now, that's not gonna work on every property- Yeah because if it's a new purchase. Mm. But we should be sitting around cashflow neutral by the time it's done for most properties in the areas that we're looking at. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wow. And then on top of that, you've got your, your capital gain, like, your, the property value increases already. Well, that's right. Then we don't need to worry about... Well, everyone's still gonna worry about the capital gains discount. We don't need to worry about the government changing for negative gearing. Yeah, yeah. We're still buying... When, when I look at, um, investment properties, we need to look where, where infrastructure is. Mm. Built-up areas. Uh, there's no point going out in the sticks building something new- Yeah when we can make something that's giving you $50 in your back pocket a month. I'd rather give a client $50 in their back pocket a month from a investment than negative gearing and losing $200 a month. Yes. Yeah. So that's where we need to change. That's where we need to change the way we, we think about how we invest. Mm. If you can put a dollar or $50 into your, into your back pocket each week- Yep is better than losing money. The Business Game is proud to partner with High Level, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website, and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, High Level software will drive your customer attention and your profits through the stratosphere. And High Level is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go High Level? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial. Matt, I'm curious, just reflecting, I know you don't look back, but just reflecting on the journey- Yeah what, what have you learned about yourself? one, I'm a very open book. Um, but what I've learned about myself is I, I just don't, I just don't stop. Like, I, I... It's amazing how much, obviously the support of my wife and family- Yeah how much they back me. Um, I think if you look at me when I was doing my apprenticeship, um, back in, let's say early 2000s, very hot-headed, very quick to be angry, and my kids might say something different. They may not agree with me now, but Yeah. Nothing's changed, Dad. Nothing's changed, Dad. Nothing's changed. But I wasn't a good person, right? And I, and I, and as I said at the start, mining, they do a lot of, um, personal development, people management, leadership training, and o- like, you sit there going, "I don't need this. I don't need this." But as soon as I stepped out into this world, I was like, "Oh, man- Yeah that training was absolutely amazing." Yeah. Mm. Right? Um, I'm very blunt and straight to the point with people- Mm which, which does turn some offside, but at the end of the day, you get what you get. Right? So yeah, I think that's the biggest thing, is just backing myself, and that growth that I actually had through mining- Mm. Yeah was a big change from when I was building houses- Mm-hmm to where I am now, because you can relate with people. And I find in this industry- where people have their own opinions on it, but there's not many that actually care and rela- relate with people or respect people. It is about that transaction. Mm. And that's what I say to all my, my, um, Evie and, sorry, my niece, um, and my b- buyer's agent Graham on the Sunshine Coast is, is we are not a transactional business. Yeah. Mm. We need to build relationships with these people. Mm-hmm. clients that I've done over the last 18 months that takes up my time having to go back to their houses for barbecues. Yeah. Like, that's the relationships I wanna build. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Because that will build into the future. Totally. Yeah. Well, that's repeat referrals- Yeah is gonna be your- Yeah your strongest- Yeah advocate there. Yeah, for sure. Mm. So your approach to hiring is pretty different, um, to the traditional playbook. You're not necessarily chasing the best degree or the longest resume. Uh, you're looking for attitude and values alignment, which I think is really cool. And, um, can you give us a real-life example, like, whether it's good or bad- Yep um, of how that's played out for MPAC? So I, I, I'll look at myself, that I'm not perfect, right? I started in the industry not knowing. But what I needed was people around me with the same values- Yes whether that- that's family values, not money-driven. Mm. I got to a point in my business where, unfortunately for me, social media is a pretty big thing. Yeah. Right? Mm. And my niece, um, Evie, who has been with me now for nearly a year now, part-time, now full-time, she's always had that drive about her that I just look at her and go, "She's gonna make it no matter what." Yeah. With the social media, I was like, "I don't wanna do this." So she's the, she- Yeah "I don't wanna do this." There's so many. Yeah. She, she- Says no one ever, right? Yeah. I know, right? Yeah. So she's, she's in school. So she was, in last year, in grade 12 finishing off her last year of school, and- Yeah similar to me, wasn't doing the best through school. I'm like, "Hey, Evie, you need to do some work experience. How about once a week you come in, and you- Yeah can just look after my social media?" She's like, "Yeah, Uncle Matt." Don't call me Uncle Matt when we're working. Yeah. "Okay, Uncle Matt." Yeah. Yeah. "Okay, Uncle Matt." Um, but yeah, and, and she came in and, and, oh, it just, it just was amazing. Like- Not sitting there on a phone, obviously doing the social media- Yeah but not sitting there on the phone. Like, actually wanting to learn. Yeah. Um, and, and act- doing what I wanted her to do. Mm. Coming towards the end of her, her schooling, I said, "Hey, would you like to learn what I'm doing?" And she's like, "Yeah, but I don't know whether I'm good enough." I'm like, "Well, just back yourself, you'll be right." So we got her her certificate, um, for a sales agent, and she started full time directly after schoolies. Wow. And it was the- That's amazing it was the busiest time that we had, right? So she came on board, absolutely amazing, can engage with clients, can, can talk the talk with, like, other different professionals. I, I don't think I've seen, in the last 20 years, another young kid like she is- Wow that has as much drive and work ethic. Yes, it might be, as we all know, when we're younger, it is about money- Yeah and dollars and all that kind of stuff. Yes, of course. And it's about navigating that, but that's fine, right? That's making her work. Yes. Um, and then she turned 18, got her license, so she's a qualified agent now- Just the amount she actually helps me in pushing me even further. Like, "Stop procrastinating, just go do it." Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, when we've got a new change in the business- Yeah or something, like, it's good banter. Yeah. But I- I'm j- one, I'm just so proud of her. Um, and two, it's, it's that whole values, right? Yeah. It's, we, we, we respect each other, and she is going to make 10 times the amount of money that I'll ever make because she is so confident, so driven, and so humble at the same time. Oh, that's awesome. So. And that's, that really ties back to that workplace culture that you're trying to create- Correct as well. Mm. And I think you actually are here because you met, our production assistant, Lucy, on a hike- Yeah and you were on a team hike, is that right? Yeah, a team hike or a, or a team dive- Team build or something, yes or something like that. Going up, going up to Mount Coolum and- Yeah, yeah. Is that something that you do quite regularly, things that are active and outdoor and- So what, what, what this s- slowdown has given us, given me, is, is to put in procedures in place, right? Like, that we haven't had. So obviously weekly meeting, like twice a week, making sure we, we- Mm catch up because Graham's on the Sunshine Coast. Um, and I'll just sit in there one meeting, I'm like, "All right, we're going for a walk tomorrow up Mount Coolum." "Oh, Jesus, what are we doing?" You know what I mean? I'm like, "I'll pick you up, Evie, at 4:00 o'clock, let's go." Yeah. So we went up the hike, um, just made it to the top, and yeah, Lucy was there. And I said, "Hey, Lucy, can you, uh, take a photo of us, please?" And- Yeah. But you didn't know her at the time. No, no, I said- Yeah, yeah "Hey- Yeah you." I said- Excuse me "Hey, stranger." Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, and yes, and just started talking, and unfortunately for her, I just went straight into sales pitch mode after she said- That's the ADHD superpower, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Type A. Yeah. You, you had me at po- positive cash flow property, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. But, but what that did, um, especially for Evie and Graham, like we discussed it later, I said, well, once we got an email, um, back from Lucy, is, see what that did is, is there's always an opportunity. And it's not about getting on a client, it's, it's, it's just about it could be a person that you could network with in the future, and all those kind of things. Like I, it just worked, and now we're here talking about This Is Your Life, pretty much. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was amazing. The next day or the n- or two days after, Gra- Graham was getting his car serviced, and pretty much we've signed that client up as well, just from talking and, and networking, building that relationship. Yeah, wow. After that client spoken to a lot of other buyer's agents. Yeah. And we had a wee sign- Yes. because we're contracting- I do, mate. I do. It's on my bike. Mate rates. Yeah, yeah. All right. M- Matt, one of the, you sp- you mentioned marketing before. Um, you've also said that you've made a, a big mistake around marketing. Can you talk us through that and what you learned about it? Yeah. Um, so- Listening to other people in the past and all those kind of things, they're like, "Oh, referral-based business is the best," right? Because one, you're not paying for marketing- Mm and that's how you build your business. Yeah. It might be slower, but you build it- Yeah you build it well. Um, and I did that. So pretty much for the first 15 months, I never paid for a lead. It was all referral-based, all those kind of things, and it was just weird. Just before, uh, the fuel crisis, I spoke to one of my mates. I go, "Mate, I need- I think I need to do marketing." And he's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, cool. Let's do it." And then all of a sudden, bang, bang, bang. Now, listening to people talk throughout my journey, they're like, "You need to, you need to build the marketing now, earlier on the business." But I was just too busy. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if you're running with six, seven, eight clients on at a time, you're just too busy and, and it's just Evie and I, and y- as a small business, you don't wanna be paying all this money to these people- Yeah that you just don't know if it's going to work, right? Yes. Um, and I have done it, and it, and it didn't work. Mm. Yeah, I was just like, "Oh, well, I should've started back then," because what that would've done is embedded the brand- Mm um, whether it was in Brisbane or Sunshine Coast, made the brand a bit more public before all these crisis happened- Mm and I wouldn't have been hit so hard. Oh, I see what you mean, yeah. I believe I wouldn't have been hit so hard if I had've started the marketing earlier. Mm. So if I'm at level one in that early startup phase and I come to you and I go, "Look, I reckon I can get by just on referrals and grinding it out," what are you gonna say to me? It's going to work to a point. Mm. Mm. But what, what I, what I would say now is that any, any, um, revenue that your business is making, you need to put aside, whether it's $10 a week in Facebook ads or Instagram ads- Yeah or anything like that, whether it's put a percentage of it aside a week or, or out of every commission that you earn towards marketing. Right. So I can't avoid marketing? No. Okay. Well, that's what I've, that's what- That's exactly where I've, where, where I have been, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Now, I wanna circle back to, we sort of touched on it briefly about the budget and Steve, thank you for clarifying for our int- Yeah um, international listeners. Yeah. I sometimes forget we're um, just here in Australia, but I wanna unpack that a little bit more with you and your expertise- Mm if that's okay. So, um, you said that the new government budgets have created real uncertainty, um, and that lack of confidence flows directly through to the buyer behavior. So can you break that down for us and how that's impacting Impact directly? Yeah. So the way I, the way I look at it is anyone that's investing or, or, or buying something, they want confidence. Mm-hmm. Mm. Right? Yes. For many years, and we've heard it on the news and all that lately, the housing market, the hou- housing has been a commodity pretty much. Yes. Absolutely. Um, and with never looking at any changes are going to happen, obviously there's been talk about it and all that kind of stuff, but normally we look at it and go, "Well, they, they will take it to the election." Yeah. All right? There's too much vested interest. It's not gonna change. Yeah, that's right. It's not gonna happen. Like, there's too much money in it. Yeah. Um- As soon as they started talking, we noticed a lot of slowdown. Mm. Right? People that just go, "We don't know what- Mm what they're actually going to do." Mm-hmm. Um, as much as we could instill confidence, obviously we don't wanna speak out of school and go, "They're never gonna touch it. They're never gonna touch it." Yeah. Yeah. And then bang, off it goes. Yeah. But we're still in that stage right now of no confidence. Yeah. Yes. Okay? Yeah. Because if they had a backflip on it, what that would've done is, is a price increase and a surge again. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So they had to go through with it. It's so true. Whether I agree or disagree- Mm. They, they had to go through with it. Um, and there's still no confidence. Even though it's passed, there's still no confidence now. Mm. The worst... The, the next backflip was the, the self-managed super fund. Yeah. So we would sell that to clients going, "If you wanna get into the investment property, but you don't have enough capital or borrowing power outside of your super- Mm uh, um, in personal, well, let's look at, you can still be an investor, still have that journey- Yeah but let's look at it in your super." Mm. Mm. Now that's changed for residential. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Now that's caused a panic because they've got 45 days to get a contract on it. Wow. Yeah. So w- we're, we're going to see, like I look at it, w- like six months of no confidence still. Mm. Yeah. Right? Mm. Um, when... W- look, we have started seeing lately, we're having more conversations now with people- Mm even investors. Yeah. But it's about, well, you can do this or you can do negative gear, which isn't being touched. Yeah. But which one's gonna work? So where do we buy? Mm. Yes. Right? For those kind of areas that wanna do the negative gearing. And we, we, in our team, we've got some good connections throughout Queensland that good rent yield, positive cashflow, positive properties. Oh, hello. Yeah. But new. Yes. Right. Yeah. Well that's- Right 'cause that, just for our listeners, anyone who's not fully across all of it, that's where you can still negative gear- Correct property, right? Yeah. Because they're trying to create new houses, which I think is, I mean, yeah. Depending on the location you go in is the biggest thing. Yes. Right? Yeah. Totally. So. Yeah. Okay. But yeah, that's, that's pretty... It's just there's no confidence what- whatsoever at the moment. It will start slowly coming back. It will be the new norm, obviously. Mm. The new next buyers are coming into it. Yes. Yes, if it does help our first home buyers, but we never had that issue. We, we bought for a lot of first home buyers. Yeah. Right. Mm. Um, so we didn't see that. Sure. But I know it's out there. I know people have struggled. Yeah. Okay. So if it helps someone out, okay. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Mm. Interesting. Yeah. Can we talk about scaling? Um, and it's, it's always a challenge when a, a, a startup business or a new business, and scaling businesses, you're not scaling one, you're scaling three. You've got MPAC, you've got RentFinder, and now the building/positive cashflow properties. So what struggles are you facing with those three balls in the air, if you like? Mm. Yeah, lucky, lucky I can, my, this brain can handle a lot of- A lot of processing. But when we're, when we're talking about scaling and teams, so I am very good at, at, at coming up with an idea. Uh, I'm very good at implementing that idea to make sure it works. Mm-hmm. Once I know it works, I'm like, "Ugh." Yeah. "I can take a break now." Now look at the, the end of last year when I put Evie on, and the start of this year, it was absolutely mayhem. Mm. Right? Um, nine, let's say nine clients on at once, I can't keep up. Yeah. We reached out to a person that was already in the industry. Um, they came across, Graham came across, um, on the Sunshine Coast, 'cause we had a lot of buying on the, I was buying a lot on the Sunshine Coast. And I hated driving up here through school holidays with all the traffic on the road. Oh, it's a nightmare. So let's make it easy. Let's put someone on the Sunny Coast. Um- But what I found i- is, like, same values Graham has, all those kind of things, but he really liked this idea of Rent Finder. Yeah, I think it's great. And I'm like- Brilliant that, that's going to work. Like, that- Yeah takes that off my plate then. Mm-hmm. Let's work on it together, but you run with it. Mm-hmm. And he did, and he has. Like, he, I think first two weeks in, he was, already had planned to go over to the UK, and he's going into all the visa places and all that, handing out Rent Finder for people that are moving over to Australia. Yeah. And he has just absolutely ran for it. So I get to, I get it to a point that I know it works. Yeah. Then I start looking for people who show interest. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and if they show interest and they think they like the idea- Yeah well, let's talk about seeing whether you come on with the team. It's like how we put the, um, admin on. Another f- another footy, footy club lady that's there. Yeah. She works for corporate in, in a, in a big corporate area. She needs to come home for family. Yeah. She's been in property management. She's, she's, she's been in the industry, but not in the industry right now. She needs to come home and be home with her family. And I'm like, "I'd love to give you that opportunity." Yeah. So she- Mm she does all the applications, she does all the paperwork, and all, everything we need. Mm-hmm. So for me, it's about building it to a point to know that it works, and then putting people in place. And if I lose money on it- Mm to start off with it, I don't care. Yeah. 'Cause I'll make it back in the future. Mm. Yes. So it, yeah. So, so just on that, are you, are you building for the future strategically, deliberately, or is it let's just have a go at this and see what happens? Uh, no, definitely there's a lot of strategy involved. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so if we, if we look at Rent Finder, if we're, if we're looking for people who are moving from overseas to Australia- Mm they're gonna set their life up here. Yes. What are they gonna do after they rent a property? They're gonna wanna buy a property. Yeah. So for me- And who are they gonna go to? The funnel. Yeah. Who are they gonna go to- Yeah when we found them their property? We're filling the funnel that end. Yeah. It's still down the track, but we're filling the funnel- Yeah down that way. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so a lot of strategy. It's, it's about feeding one business into the next. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There is something that you mentioned just before that I wanted to drill down on quickly. So you said you're really good at creating the idea, then finding validation, making sure it works, and then letting someone run it. What is the indicator for that validation that it's gonna work? Ooh, that's nice. Mm. Whoa. Sorry. Nothing there. No, no, that's a good one. Well, that's a good question. Yeah. No, no, so, um, I, I, I look at, I look at Rent Finder, the perfect, perfect example. Okay. Yeah. Uh, uh, one, it's all, like, and as we go back to Impact, it's, it's backing, it's backing the process. Yes. Now, we, we put an ad up- Before New Year's Eve, and it was, we had to shut it down in six hours. Wow. Oh, there's that- Good marketing marketing thing, hey? Yeah. And I, we went to Bali, and I was like, "Nah, not even thinking about it until I come back from the family holiday." Fair enough. Then I get an email- from someone over in the UK coming to Australia. And I'm like, "Oh, how did you get me?" "Oh, actually, off your website, and I saw that you had, you mentioned something about finding people rental properties." Mm. And I'm like, "Oh no. Here we go." What have I done? What have I done? Oh, no. Anyway, r- once again, first one, really, really cheap. We had, we had, we had the process to a point, but it wasn't refined. Okay. Okay? Um, and then I'm sitting there, we'd signed, we'd signed the client up, and I'm sitting in the office, and Evie's like, "When are you gonna start moving on this rent finder?" And I'm like, "We've still got a month. Like, we'll find one in a month." 'Cause I've never rented, right? Yeah. Mm. So I've never been- Yeah in the position that I've had to rent, because- Yeah I've been buying houses so early. Yes. Um, and she goes, "You just gotta give it, you just gotta go. Go for it." I looked at it. So these clients, never lived in Australia. Good income. Uh, sold their house over there. They had a contract to move back to Australia, but they couldn't get in on, into properties. Oh. All right? So they were, they were, they were perfect if they were in Australia. Yes. Yeah. But being overseas, and they wanted to be set up, they wanted a house so they could come here and just move straight into it. Fair enough. Okay. All right. This is one day, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna work on it for this week. Three hours work. That's including three inspections. Our process, so we, we applied for two of the properties. We got accepted to two of the properties. Nice. And our process that the owners of the property, the landlords of the property, didn't even look at the other client. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And real estate agents, property managers, they, they, they absolutely love it because they know it's, we've built a relationship with that client. Mm. Yeah. It's not just, "I've seen you for five minutes." Mm. Yes. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. All right. So going back to that strategic question then, what does this all look like in five years? It'd be, yeah, five years. Five years is a, is a good conversation that I always have with, um, my team and, and my family is, is that's the goal, is to sit back in a five years, and it's not about, it's not about the money, it's not about anything. It's to look back and see what we've actually done. Mm. What we've achieved, and that we've done it the right way. That the client one is always put forward. Yeah. And that, and that, um, the business has actually grown. Yeah. So five years' time, look, it, it is an unknown with all the changes that we have going, but look, I look at RentFinder, um, that there is just all by itself. We've got a team just looking after that. MPAC Property Group, we've got a team looking after that. We're about So we're almost there for MPAC Property Group. That can look after and have the right people for the building as well. I'm excited. Yeah. I'm excited. The goal is, the goal has always been five years, is- Yeah like whether we suc- succeed or fail, let's look back and see what we can achieve, and this is what I say to my team all the time, is like, "We are doing this together." Like, "Let's go on this journey. Let's work hard." Yeah. Obviously have time out to, to build, obviously. From mining, we look at all the, um, the coaching and training I had. I wanna put that into the team as well. Mm-hmm. So I go to events and all these kind of things with the team to make sure that they're growing and developing as well. I, I... My biggest thing is, is, is just let's just see how it goes. Let's see- Yeah how big we can grow this, right? And it's gonna be a fun journey. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There's no, there's no end game. Yeah. It's about, it's about what we can achieve in five years, whether it's this huge business or we're still sitting where we are, but we're actually doing, having good outcomes. I wanna ask you about your focus on community, because you've mentioned it a few times, and I think it's really powerful, um, and an interesting string to pull on. So, um, that and the legacy s- that you're creating. So community seems to be a really big deal for you, which- Yeah amazing. And, you know, that you've got your local sponsorships, a lot of sports- Mm and showing up for the people around you. Um, for a business that's still in its early stages like you are, it seems like a deliberate choice to give your resources away. Why is that such a non-negotiable for you? So if we take a step back, so living away remote in the Northern Territory on an island- Mm where you don't have any family- Yeah right? You've, you've just got the people around you you l- you love 'em or hate 'em. Yeah. All right? Yeah. But you've gotta build a community, 'cause otherwise you will not survive in that industry if you don't have a community, community around you. You know what I mean? Yeah. 'Cause you don't have family. Yes. Yeah. For me, that's why I sponsor the small sporting clubs. That's why I, I try and give back as much as I can, is because without community, we don't have a business. Yeah. Right? And yes, yes, as I said, it's, it, it is about... There's, there's always two parts to it, right? You're sponsoring someone, you may get something out of it. Mm. But even if I haven't, and, and, and I haven't- Yeah and, and that's okay too, because these small little clubs or the small little communities, or even like w- when the fuel crisis happened, we were giving away $50 fuel cards just to- Mm people just to- Ring up or text me and say, "Hey, here's a $50 fuel card, here." Like, people struggle out there. Yeah. I, I'm fortunate that I've been quite lucky, that I've been driven and, and worked hard and been like Fell into some, some positions and some roles to be in the position I, I have been in. Mm-hmm. But there's If we don't have people who are giving back in the community, if we're all about egos if we're all about the money- Mm is that, is that a way to live your life? Mm. For me, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. No, that's awesome. That's good. Yeah. What are the risks for you moving forward? risk definitely market condition. Yeah. Right? What's happening in the market right now. I think, uh, we're, we're, we're in a good, good position to continue through. Yeah. Um, I've never over-leveraged in my business. I've, I've tried to keep it very streamlined in expenses, and even before the fuel crisis happened, I knew there was going to be more to come- Yeah Mm um, with the f- with inflation and all that. So I just went through everything. I dropped my expenditure down by 50% just overnight, just from wasted subscriptions, things that I've- Yeah never used or never- Mm looked at again, which- Mm it's thousands and thousands of dollars. Um, my biggest risk is, is losing the good people that I have around me- Yeah. Okay like, my staff. And I will do whatever. I'll move mountains to make sure those people stay on board, stay happy, and stay focused. Yeah. 'Cause the last thing I want, even in a, in a time, um, that some of the just on commission base only, the last thing I wanted is them to start thinking about money- Mm stressing themselves out, stressing their family out. Because when they in- interact with either new clients or clients- Mm they got on, their, their head's not focused. Yeah, true. We, like, you can't have that focus- Mm whatsoever. And it's hard, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. So I'll do whatever I can- to make sure that my team is happy and supported throughout the hard times. Yeah. Which is a hard thing as well, because we all hear businesses say, like, "You, you need to cut cut it. If you can't afford it- Yes you need to cut" where." Yes. I don't want to be in that position because these people are good people. They're hard workers. Yes. And, like- Mm they're f- they're family to me. Yeah. And family is a big thing- Yeah as you probably picked up in Yeah. I have picked that up. Yeah. It's a great quality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that, you know, that's that big piece that's going, that's that long-term vision that you seem to have, is recognizing that it's not about the short-term gain- Mm or, you know, like, making quick, fast decisions because something's hard right now. It's a long-term- Yeah thing. So holding onto people and helping them through, even when it's tough and it means you might have to cut some things to keep them Yeah 100% that will go miles. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so we're getting closer to the end of our time today. Oh, really? It's gone- I know. It's gone very fast. It's gone by so quick. Oh, you made me too comfortable. We ought to get, come back again. Yeah. Um, and we're about to get into the quick-fire questions- Oh which, uh, is my personal favorite. Yeah. Yep. It's all fun. But first, I wanna get a piece of advice from you for our listeners, if that's all right. So you left financial security- Built through uncertainty, and you're now expanding your businesses. You're raising a family. If another tradie or mining professional is sitting at home right now having the same conversation with themselves- Mm um, that you had with your wife, what's the most honest thing you can tell them about what's actually waiting on the other side? Yeah, if they wanna be like Matt, right? I wanna be like Matt. But actually- Oh, look, I, I wouldn't recommend that, but, uh But look, oh, I, I... It's a good question, right? Because- Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. Yeah I've always said, like, if, if I need money, if, if this business goes bust and I need to earn money, I'm more than happy to clean toilets. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not scared. Like, it's... And that's the thing, move your ego aside. Mm. Yeah. All right? The golden handcuffs of mining are good, and they have put me in a good position- Yeah to be able to get into this role. Um, put your ego behind. Don't be scared of the failure- Yeah because you will learn a lot when, when you are in those darkest times. Yeah. Yeah. And it's how you come out of it. Yes. All right? So yeah, just, just... And back yourself. Yeah. Good stuff. Mm. All right, back yourself, people. Mm-hmm. Ready to get into quickfire? Yeah. I, I, I want to see the contract first, though, before we- Yeah, yeah. Um, Steve, do you wanna take the- Absolutely, Kalena. Yeah. All right. You take the lead. Yeah, okay. So here we go. So Matt, we ask you 10 questions. We'll alternate. We ask you to answer in a word or a sentence, and, um, yeah, just really quick, we'll get to know you a little bit more. It's about getting to know the person behind the microphone. So you're ready to go? Ready. All righty. Here we go. So first question, are you an early riser or a night owl? I am both. There you go. Do you- Four hour, four, five hours sleep a night. Wow. Whoa. Okay. Gosh. What's one piece of tech that you couldn't live without? Um, my CRM. Yeah. Yeah. With... Yeah. Good answer. Yeah. And which one's that? And what do you use? So that's FoxHouse. Okay. Mm. Yeah, it does all the AI automation and marketing, so. Oh. Okay. Yeah. Wonderful. There's that word again, the M word, hey? Mm. Yeah. What's your coffee order? Uh, long black, which I've been called a psychopath for, uh, us- drinking a long black before, so. What? That's apparently, that's a thing. Oh. I drink a long black. I know. I was like, he- I'm in a room with two psychopaths. Well, yeah. But you- Someone send help but you- Are you safe? Yeah. Are you safe at work? Um, so Matt, what's the best investment you've ever made? Property. Yeah. Good answer. Okay. Yeah. Office or work from home? Work from home what's your book or podcast recommendation? Uh, book would be The Art of Persuasion. Android or iPhone? iPhone. go-to productivity hack. Oh. Evie. Oh. Hopefully she listens to this- Yes and likes the- Oh, she better. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What was your first job? Pamphlet deliverer. Oh. Uh if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what career would you choose? I wouldn't be in any other industry. I've done them all pretty much before this. Yeah. So, um, no, look, I love this industry. Um, yeah, still in a trade probably. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right, so our last question, Matt. Look, if business truly is a game, Matt Nowell, what's your definition of winning? driving in the right direction, having family and the right team that supports with the right values around you, um, to me, that's winning. Yeah. Right? So you'll still have hard conversations, but if we're all on the same page, we can move mountains. Hmm. Hmm. And where can our listeners find you online? So Instagram, MPAC Property Group. Facebook. Um, bit of LinkedIn, don't really use it, but, uh- My niece looks after it, so. He, Evie looks after it. I was gonna say, Evie will respond. Thank you to Evie. And, and, uh, yeah. Yeah. And the website, so. Okay. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you very much. This has been such a great conversation. Yeah, thank you, Matt. Yeah, it's been great fun. Thanks for joining us, yeah. I, I've really loved too how you know, you're what, 6'8" or something like that. Yeah. You're, you're not a small guy, right? And yet you were adamant about putting the ego aside. Yes. Yeah. Being humble. And so thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that. It's been great. No, it's been good. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Well, that's all we've got time for. Mm-hmm. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game, and check out the playlist for the level of business you're currently playing. Because every founder is somewhere on the game board, from zero all the way to $200 billion. Choose your level, and we'll see you next