YOU'RE THE BOTTLENECK OF YOUR OWN BUSINESS

On today’s episode of The Business Game, we’re sitting down with Andrew Sparks, Founder of exyt® and creator of Exit OS — a practical operating system designed to help founder-led businesses remove owner dependence, build stronger leadership teams, and scale without the founder becoming the bottleneck. 

After leaving school at just 15 to become a plumber, Andrew built multiple successful businesses before studying psychology and performance, combining decades of real-world business experience with human behaviour to create a framework that helps founders reclaim their time and build businesses that can run without them. 

We asked him about the "Second Stage Squeeze" that traps so many business owners, why working harder eventually stops working, how to build accountability into a growing company, hiring great leaders, creating systems that scale, and what it really takes to build a business that gives you both time and financial freedom. 

Let’s dive in, 

with Andrew Sparks: 

• Why leaving school at 15 became the foundation for his entrepreneurial journey 
• The "Second Stage Squeeze" that traps founders as their businesses grow 
• Why working harder eventually becomes your biggest bottleneck 
• How to stop being the person every decision depends on 
• Building leadership teams that actually take ownership 
• Why most businesses accidentally create a prison for the founder 
• The psychology behind scaling a business without losing control 
• How Exit OS helps founders reclaim 10-20 hours every week 
• Why hiring exceptional people is the closest thing to a business cheat code 
• What true success looks like beyond revenue and growth 

If you're a founder, business owner, or entrepreneur who feels like your business can't function without you, this episode is packed with practical lessons on leadership, delegation, systems, accountability, hiring, and building a business that creates freedom instead of burnout. 

Connect with Andrew Sparks:
Website: myexyt.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/theandrewsparks 

The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses High Level’s software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere - so click here for your 14-day free trial:
https://www.gohighlevel.com/?fp_ref=ribu88 

This episode contains affiliate advertising. The Business Game Group is a GoHighLevel affiliate. If you sign up through the link in the show notes, we may earn a commission at no additional cost to you. 

Transcript

0:00

So welcome to the prison that you built with the best intent. Most managers aren't managing. They're not making decisions, they're just, like, spinning plates and still bringing key decisions to you. The business owner often thinks that, like, everyone wants me or needs me. They don't. They want the person that can answer the question properly. You can have all the certificates in the world to be great at what you do. None of that will determine actually how good you are at growing a company. You need to reinvent. You need to change. You need to think differently. You need to give some things up. Time and money freedom, so it's decision freedom. Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to over $50 billion, so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level three, which sits in the 3 to $10 million bracket, the operator stage. At this level, revenue is consistent and the team is growing, but you're no longer just building a business. You're building leadership. The challenges? Delegating real ownership, installing managers, and making the psychological shift from founder-operator to CEO. The goal? Step out of the bottleneck and build a leadership layer that scales beyond you. Welcome to The Business Game. I'm Steve Plummer. And I'm Kalina Stenner. Be sure to like and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. We're joined today by Andrew Sparks, the founder of Exit and creator of Exit OS, a practical operating system that helps founder-led businesses remove owner dependence and scale without the founder staying at the center of everything. After leaving school at 15 and starting out as a plumber, Andrew went on to build businesses and study psychology and performance, and develop a clear framework for helping owners step out of the day-to-day operational bottleneck. Today, he works with growing businesses, particularly in trades, construction, and service-based industries, to build stronger leadership, clearer accountability, and businesses that can run without relying on the founder for every decision. Let's dive in with Andrew Sparks. Andrew, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Good to be, uh, here as, um, uh, on the other side of the screen. Mm-hmm. Yeah, fantastic. All right. So look, you're playing business or the game of business at level two. Can you tell us about yourself, how you came to found the business Exit, and what it is that you actually do to help people? Uh, yeah. So the short version, as you said, dropped out of school at 15. I was a plumber. I'd grown up in a household that my dad was a printer, and he worked 16 hours a day. And so for me to enter the business game was a, just a logical step. You know, I wasn't great in a classroom, and so I was able to, um, I was able to get out and, and sort of really found my feet, um, in life once I left school. And, and from that perspective- You know, did some plumbing and then, um, got my license by the time, I think I was 19. I was either 19 or 20 when I had my plumbing license, and 21 I went overseas, spent 10 years over there, and kind of the end of that time is when I studied psychology. I'd built kind of a couple of businesses while I was overseas, and, um, had some, some good success and, um, and I think from there, when I'd studied the psychology, it was then applying a lot of the principles that I'd had and used in, you know, positive and negative periods of my life, um, and, and really pushing. And so, you know, moved back to Sydney and then had, um... I was in Canada at that stage, and moved back to Sydney and I had the Barclays trading desk here in Sydney, um, doing performance coaching, and then Rabobank and Super Rugby and some other high-performance organizations doing the real performance work. You know, how to really move the levers. And over a period of, you know, 15 years now doing this sort of work in this industry, I've just been able to unpack what it took to build a successful business. You know, I built something working 100 hours a week, and, uh, exit started three years ago and, um, just over three years ago now, and I just got back from three weeks in Europe and, um, logged out of everything and, um, came back to 19 emails that were cleared in about an hour. So I think that growing up when- where it's habitual, and I think it is for many, you know, founders and business owners, that you just gotta work and you work all the hours and so forth, and my journey's just been deconstructing that. I've got a four and a six-year-old, you know, uh, girls a- and a wife at home and, um, they're very important to me and time with them is very important to me. So, um, just being able to chip away at those beliefs that you must work hard and be there and be the central point of everything. Here we are today at exit where I'm in a pretty good position. Yeah. So I'm, I'm just curious about that part of the journey. I mean, trade, leaving school at 15 and, and studying psychology. What was the, the trigger if you like, that, that led you down the psychology path? 'Cause they are diametrically opposed, right? They are. You don't... I don't think anyone goes into psychology unless they need to. Um, so I'd spent, uh, about 10 years k- on the wrong side of the tracks when I was living in Canada and, um, I went through, uh, it was about eight years and I went through a real life rebuild. I think I was about 30, you know, late 20s when I kinda looked at myself and thought, "Is this, you know, what I was kinda born to do?" Um, and so I went through a period of probably, you know, three, four, five years of living overseas, starting to realize what I was doing was not gonna, was not conducive of what I thought was possible for me. And through that period then came back to Australia, resettled here, studied a lot of psychology and really took me a few years to- Get my head back on straight, I guess. And, um, and that was kind of the build. So there was a lot of... You know, there was a lot of great stuff, it was just pointed at the wrong things. And so psychology really helped me, like, r- shift and change, like, what I was, you know, what I was pointing at, so. I'm just curious. Yeah. What... You said that when you were... So it was Canada that you were living over in? Correct. Yeah. What businesses had you started over there? You said you had some success. Yep. So, um, probably more so latter was the construction sides of things. Okay. Um, and so building a construction business off the back of doing a lot of, uh, not productive stuff- you know, for a period of time. Um, and that was kinda the first thing that started to trend. It was like, "Okay, these behaviors aren't gonna get me there." I was always very good, you know, on the tools with my hands and so forth, I just got it. Um, and so that stuff just came very naturally to me, and so I was able to work through, you know, that sort of thing, um, through that phase of my life and, and sort of start to put things back together. And then when I got back to Australia and studied psychology, I burned the boats. So I came back and I sold all my tools that I had here from an early age, and thought, "I'm just going all in on this thing," before, you know, very... This is what? 2011, 2012. Very early, um, in the, I guess you would call it the personal growth or the business growth space before it reall- really emerged on the, you know, mainstream where it is today. Yeah. Right. So leaving school at 15, starting as a plumber before building businesses, what was the moment that you realized the way most founder-led businesses operate is fundamentally broken? And how did that realization shape everything that you built after that? My wife and I have been together, I think, 15 years. Um, and, uh, I know we're married 10 years. I'm better with dates than her, but I know we're married for 10 years this year, and I think it was five years before that. Um, when we first got together and were living together, she was an employee in a corporate company, and I was working 20 hours a day, honestly. And she was just like, "What is this?" You know? Like, "This is..." And, and I had no idea, you know. I was really just trying to duct tape together a new direction in my life and, you know, the internet and, you know, YouTube was early in those stages and phases. And so I think that really just sat with me for a long period of time. And then, what? Six years ago, 2020, we had our first daughter. And, you know, when I'd... You know, since, since coming back, I'd built- Um, a couple of, I guess, coaching businesses to seven figures and, you know, had success there as well. But when I started Exit, you know, we had Sienna, who was our youngest and, um, uh, who's our eldest, I guess, uh, our firstborn, and then we had Amari shortly after. And it was just if you look at, you know, the volume of time that often as, you know, founders or business owners inject to actually looking at, well, what am I gonna be proud of when I'm, you know, 60 or 70 or 80? And where did I invest my time, and how did my kids get brought up, and what did they see from me, and what's their, you know, version and opinion of me? And so then it was just a process of like, well, you know, there's other people that are-- 'cause like I said, my model was my dad who'd worked 16 hours a day and, and I'd had a ton of success doing that. Um, and so then it was just ultimately, well- Other people have figured it out, and so I've, you know, built and made a lot of money, and I need to do it another way because I'm not prepared to bury myself for 16 hours a, a day to be able to do it. And so probably that, that unconscious draw, but that conscious decision to be like, "There must be another way." And so it really is just about getting the structures right and getting people in the right seats and, you know, some other things I'm sure we'll talk about as we unpack here. Mm. Yeah. You've got a, an interesting phrase that you use, um, as part of the business, and it's the second-stage squeeze. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's a really- Mm that's a, a really, um, targeted kind of thing that I think anyone in that situation will go, "Ouch." I kind of feel that. So it... for those listening, you describe it as that painful stall that founders hit when growth stops working the way it used to. In other words, everything's going along fine, fine, fine. You try and grow, and then it's kind of like- Suddenly what the hell do I do now? The wind stops. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so can you walk us through what that looks like inside a business, and in particular, what are the early warning signs an owner should be- Mm paying attention to before it becomes a crisis? So I think what I would call the first stage is, is startupville, right? Where it's like you're trying to get product market fit, and so, you know, you're around the dining room table or, you know, you're invested and you're working all the hours and you're trying to figure it out. And so that becomes a problem because the very thing that gets you successful and gets you busy... Like in the beginning, when you start a business, the job, you know... Assume everyone, you know, uses a calendar. The job is to get a full calendar. Yes. Yeah. Right? And then, you know, my belief is that once you get a full calendar, the job is to get an empty calendar again, and to stack that calendar with the right activity and make sure that it is the highest leverage activity. And so, you know, with that thinking, if, if we assume that the first phase is startup land and, and it gets you going, it's blood, it's sweat, it's tears, you know, it's time, energy, and everything that you have, and that is unsustainable, all right? And so what happens is in the beginning- You know, you make a bit of money, and then you go, "Okay, like I'm busy. I've gotta delegate a few tasks." So you hire somebody, and then you hire another, and then you hire another. And you end up, and you look around, and you wake up, and you're like, "I've got, you know, 10 or 50 people that I'm delegating tasks to, and every time I don't delegate a task, they sit there and wait." And so you're delegating tasks to all these people that aren't making decisions. The speed of the company moves at the decisions that you actually make. Everyone comes back to you because you didn't hand over reporting, accountability, ownership. Um, and so the very success that you had creates that second-stage squeeze, and, and then the companies can't scale because you're tied up. You're in the middle of it. You can't work on growth, and then, you know, cash dries up because of it. You're paying... You know, you throw money at the problem, which is pay people to like, you know, do more, but then you've got more people reporting to you, so welcome to the prison that you built with the best intent, right? And so if this is the best intent and that got you there, throwing more hours at this thing and throwing more people at this thing is not gonna be the problem. Because now you're gonna have more direct reports, and more direct reports mean more, "Hey, boss, you got a sec? Can I ask a quick question?" Um, the got-a-minute meetings I'll call them. And so now you're just in this boiling pot of pain that you created that was supposed to build you freedom, and so that is what I call the second-stage squeeze. Often cash will dry up. You can't... You know, you're paying a lot of people, but you've got no management or leadership, people that can make decisions. You can't afford to pay the higher-tier people that you would need, and it's just this ugly, messy stage that that's where we come in and pick up the founders that we work with and help them navigate the waters to be able to free up more time and capacity to work on the right activity. Yeah. I'm interested in your take on this because w- we... Everyone who's been anywhere near any business has always heard the mantra of, you know, "You should be working on your business, not in your business." Mm. Okay. Yeah. It's as simple as that. Why don't we do it? Because you haven't pushed decisions down, I would say. I think if all decisions still need to make their way to you, then you haven't pushed decision rights down as well. So if I'm gonna hand something over, I have to hand over ownership, and I've gotta hand over what great looks like, but I've gotta hand over ownership to be able to make decisions in and around that as well because otherwise you'll do 80% of it, but you'll still bring 20% of the questions to me. I was talking about this recently that like most managers aren't managing, right? They're not making decisions. They're just like spinning plates and still bringing key decisions to you. My belief is you don't have effective managers in the positions, and that may not be a people problem. You may have the right people But you haven't pushed the decision-making rights and the capability down to them to say, "This is yours." Right? "This is yours. You own it. It's yours. You're KPI'd on it. This is yours. Um, here's the frameworks, you know, the cultural, the brand frameworks. Here's how we get success." And it does come back to systems and processes. But, like, if managers keep running things to you, they're not managing. They're just spinning plates, and they're... Sure, they might be holding things at bay, but if everything floats up to you as the founder, especially, you know, if you've got three people on the team or five people on the team, very different, you know? But many people come to us with, you know, six, seven, eight in this position. That'd be on the smaller side. But also founders with 80, you know, 90, 100 on the team come in the exact s- same squeeze. Because at that stage, the capability of the people below them hasn't grown with the level that it needs to to be able to, you know, fight, fight the battles and solve the problems at that level without running to mom or dad- Yeah with every problem. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So a lot of founders in trades and constructions really pride themselves on being the person who knows everything and gets things done, which I think can kind of- Yeah lean into that- Yeah that, yeah, the managers still don't feel that they can do anything. Um, so how do you have the conversations with someone like that about the fact that their greatest strength has quietly become their biggest bottleneck? Yeah, I think the, you know, the hard and fast question is, is this working right now? That's true. And the answer's no. Yeah. So that's where, you know, like, and second stage for us is, like, that exact time where it's like, what... You know, you've done great to get here. Right? But you've, you've created a prison based on the way that you've been doing things, and you need to reinvent. You need to change. You need to think differently. You need to give some things up. And so that's where infrastructure and other things in place, and yeah, like, that's where ego comes in place. But, you know, for the construction, you know, like, I was 15 years old on the ph- you know, watching the boss on the phone and ringing 100 times a day, and actually, like, 100 times a day, and I'm sure many of the people in the industry would, would say the same thing. And it's like this... So a mate of mine, um, mate of mine's a builder. We had a conversation 10 years ago, I would say, and he's like, you know, he's had eight, 10 on the team at the time, and he's like, "Ah, it's all just too much." There's too many people reporting to him. So he said, "I'm just kinda gonna shrink down and have three or four guys," and that's effectively what he's done. And- The thing with that is he's, he's got a job for life. Yeah. Mm. Right? He has to turn up, he's gotta set up the guys every day, he's gotta run the sites, he's gotta, you know, talk to the clients and so forth, and he only does, you know, three or four houses a year. So like it's a small thing, and I'm sure he earns well and, you know, that works for his lifestyle. But at that very point in time as well, you can make a different decision and go, "I'm great." You know, I've got the certificate on the wall. For me, it was a plumber. You know? Or it could be an architect or an engineer or a designer or a accountant or whatever. You can have all the certificates in the world to be great at what you do. None of that will determine actually how good you are at growing a company, because the certificate on the expertise that you do does not determine your capability to run people and build systems and let go of things, which is obviously, you know, it, it can be a big, to your question, a big ego drawer of like, "Well, if I'm not required, you know, what, what does that mean for me?" Um, we've actually got an event in a couple of weeks where we're answering that conversation, which is like, what happens after? You know, what happens after I get my time back? Because there's so many layers of I used to be needed here, and now I'm not, what am I supposed to work on? If you don't fill the void... You see this in sport, right? You see it with sporting players that go to the gym at this time, get on the bus at this time. They spend, you know, 15 years in professional sport. They come out and they fill it with drugs and alcohol and, you know, self-defeating behaviors because they don't have that structure. And so you have to answer that question, otherwise the founder, the business owner, they'll either, you know, go down that pathway themself, which I would say is less common, or they'll find problems, or they'll step back in, or they'll start breaking things that don't need to be broken because they didn't rewrite the program as they grew, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. And I, I was gonna ask you about that. How much of your psychology study comes into the work you do with, with founders and, and entrepreneurs? Because the... It's, it's like you say, right? It's the, if they don't process it in their, their mind, then they, they look to fill the void. So is that a, a big chunk of what you do? And, and, and I guess a, an, a second question to that is, is success what they say really an internal job, so you gotta get your head right? I'd love your, your take on that. Yeah. Oh, man, I think this is so interesting. Um, mindset: what does it mean? You know, it's such a broad topic. And, you know, like I said, I work with, you know, some of the big banks here in Sydney and sporting organiza- people you'd see on TV today and know who they are from sporting organizations. And so it's like, what exactly does it mean? And so what- What I continue to work on with the team and work on with the product here at Exit is how do we operationalize things so that we don't have to have therapy sessions around everything, right? So like what, um, and like arguably, you know, like there is a place for that. There's a time for that, and there's a place for that. But when you think about building a scalable company, you know, the integrators which is our, is, which is my delivery team, their role is to go and work with the founders. And if we can try and operationalize things to get people to just do the process, then we don't have to have the therapy sessions and, you know, talking to them about these sorts of things. I, you know, my life from, you know, when I was probably twenty-nine through to thirty-five was that world. You know? I needed it. I needed it for myself. So like the value and the validity of it is high, but from a scalability perspective, A, not everyone wants to, you know, face those things, and B, um, does it always need to happen or they just, do they just need to do the process? And so for us it's like how do we operationalize, you know, the product, the delivery, the, we call them installs, the pieces of information that need to go into your business to solve this problem. If we can just get people to do that, then they execute and then the problem goes away, and then we didn't need to do the therapy on the way. We just... 'Cause it's all a game of habits, right? It's, we all know this. Like it's a game of habits and, you know, beliefs and behaviors and so forth. But I think the beauty of, you know, the, the community that we have at Exit is some people are, you know, big businesses can come in and start and they can see pe- people further down the road that have solved the problem, and so it's like, oh, like if I just follow the bouncing ball the same as that person did, then I will effectively get the same result. So I know that's not like a direct answer, but I think, I just think about it the more that I can operationalize process and get the installs dialed so it's like we take it off the shelf and plug it into your business, ideally the less of the personal work that we have to do. But then if somebody's, you know, if you've tried to chop down the tree from this way and this way, sometimes you, you know, you just gotta do what you can to try and- Help them have the conversation they need to have about why they're not implementing on the thing. And, you know, that's a tough time, you know, for a business owner that you gotta look yourself in the face a lot, uh, I'm sure as you guys know, and go, you know, sometimes if I'm the problem, I'm the solution. And in most cases. And that doesn't mean you have to be the person to go back in to do all the work, it just means that you have to be the person to unlock to then be able to delegate and, and at the same time sometimes you've just gotta throw hours at things. Yeah. Yeah, totally. All right, Andrew, take us through what actually happens when a client comes to you in the first 90 days. What, what's the process you take them through? Yep. So the partners that we work with and bring on board, we would start with an audit. Um, effectively the goal within, you know, the first 30 days, we call that our launch phase, which is effectively to come in and to be able to isolate, um, what is the biggest constraint that you're working through at the moment, and to be able to solve that. So somebody might say, "I'm working 80 hours a week, and all of that time is spent working in the business. I turn up with my list on Monday of things to do." I get to Friday, none of them are done. And so then what we try and do within that 30-day period is get somewhere between 10 and 20 hours back per week to be able to work on the business, and that is the real key, core, important work. And I know that's... You know, they sound like crazy numbers. They're not that crazy. It's just that, you know, we get into these habits and behaviors of I'll just pick it up, and I'll do it. I'll pick it up, and I'll do it. And so if there's a resemblance of a team there that hasn't been given ownership and accountability, we start by ideally pushing that down. What that allows is it frees up time. And in the beginning, the goal is not always to change the total net hours, but it's the quality of the work that's actually being done. So it might be that, you know, delivery's a problem in, you know, said business or, you know, we'll talk construction. So the phone rings 100 times a day, and I don't get to the things that I'm supposed to get to. Well, why is the phone ringing 100 times a day? Who's the person on site that should be managing it? Do the owners have your phone number? Why did you give them your phone number type thing. So it's then deconstructing the things that happened before that because all of that is just a downstream effect, right? And so, yeah, the business owner often thinks that, like, everyone wants me or needs me. They don't. They want the person that can answer the question properly and be able to solve the problem, and so if you can push that down. And generally, that'll free up, you know, quite a bit of time. Um, and then from that, it's right, what is the key constraint that's stopping you, that's blocking you? Sometimes it's financial. Like, most of the time, uh, the companies that we work with are in a reasonable position financially, and so we'll attack time first so that we can then put resources in to be able to solve the financial piece. Um, but, uh, within that band, it's different for every single partner that we work with. So, you know, you might come in with one problem, another person would come in with another. The goal is to, you know, transfer the time from working in to working on. In the beginning, sometimes the hours may go up just a little bit. We need three to five hours a week to be able to, you know, help them solve their problems. Over time, that time will go down. Time working on the business will go up, and then over time, net, uh, the time overall will go down. And, and then it's writing the job description, you know, their future job description of, like, what are you responsible for? I'm sitting here with you because this is part of my role, right? And I have a COO who runs the company, and we've got people in the roles so that I can be here because this is a... There's nothing more high leverage than I can do than have conversations like this, um, to be able to grow the business at this stage of where we're at. So this is where the time goes. And that would be kind of the macro over all the companies. It's like, what is the highest value and best use? You know, like I said before, I'd just had three weeks off as well. I didn't come back to a total mess, and came back, and things are in, you know, really, in a good spot. There's a few things to work on that we kinda knew. But I didn't... You know, I wasn't working 60 hours a week. I didn't have to work all weekend to solve problems. I just get back into the business as usual. And so the faster that we can get a partner there, ideally within that 90 days, to free up their capacity, the faster they can drop down to solve the core root issues, to get the team right, you know, develop leadership in the team, get the infrastructure right, the systems, the processes, which frees up time, capacity, bandwidth, so they can take a holiday, spend time with their family, or work on the right things. And it's not that everyone... I don't wanna sit on a beach 40 hours a week, you know? Like, it's not that everyone wants to do that. But once you can take the stuff off that they shouldn't have been doing in the first place, then it frees up the time to... I like racing cars, and I like, you know, we were in Europe. I like, you know, holidaying there. I like spending time with my family. So those things are important, so time either goes there, or time goes to the key important on the business things. Um, and it's different for everyone, and that's great. Yeah. Yeah. So moving to Exit OS, so you developed Exit OS- Yeah as a practical operating system for founder-led businesses. What was missing from the existing frameworks and methodologies that are out there that made you feel that you need to, needed to build something from scratch? I think if you look at, you know, certain models that are probably more mass market, often great for corporate businesses, for big businesses, and lack a layer of accountability and ownership in the middle. Um, a- it... So I used to ha- It used to be, like, six pillars, and then over time, you know, often the art of scaling is deduction and taking things away, and so I was able to consolidate in, um, to four from six. And so the idea was that if we can set up a framework Like if we can set up a framework that the thread that runs through everything is it takes things off the founder's plate, and it sets things up in that way versus burying you in meetings or having, you know, just stuff for the sake of stuff. Like for me, I've always kind of optimized towards simple. Um, and so it was just the consolidation of that, and I think are there some good models out there that have been very successful for people? Yes. Um, I just saw that, and tried, you know, many of them for myself in the early days as well, and I was like, "This is clunky. This is like complicated. There's too many meetings. Why are we having so many meetings if people are actually owning things?" And so I just, I would just like squeeze more out, squeeze more out. Um, and I just... You know, I work with so many businesses. In the beginning, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't teaching business. I was doing performance-based stuff. But working with, you know, entrepreneurs and founders and seeing their models and going, "Okay, like, there's a, there's a framework here." And after I think two or three years of that, I started to build some of that stuff, not as the core offering, um, it was kind of a mindset with a business thing. It was this, you know, early 2010s type thing. And then just after years of seeing that, it was like, okay, like we've got a model here, and I saw the results show up. I was on the front line of everything then, right? So it was like the speed of iteration for businesses was so fast, and, and then the model just kinda came about. Um, and then obviously Exit came as a business not too long after working through all that sort of stuff and applying kind of what I'd built there. The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website, and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, HighLevel software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere. And HighLevel is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go HighLevel? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial. Yeah. Wow. You mentioned leadership and accountability just a moment ago. So how do you actually genuinely build accountability into the businesses you work with? Because, you know, you mentioned it, that teams have been conditioned to run to- Mm the leader- Yep um, for, for stuff. So how do you get around that? Yeah. I think it all starts with hiring, right? And to hire effectively, you gotta be clear on who you are as an identity of a company, right? And so it's boring to say that, you know, putting val- you know, values are important, but they're, like, the most critical thing in an organization. Because if you hire people that are outside of that or that start there and fall off- Everyone listening to this has, like, felt the pain of that, and then you often scratch your head, and you wonder why this person who's, like, supposed to be so good is just, like, not working out. And then, you know, six months or six years later, for some people, you hit yourself in the head for realizing that you missed the blind, blind and obvious. And so, um, I think when you get clear on this is who we are, this is what we stand for, this is what we stand against, this is the direction that we're going, and then you hire through that framework. Not you ask, you know, "What does this mean to you?" But, like, you... I just, like, analyze the person, right? I interrogate the person. I wanna know who you are. I, you know, beyond the, like, you know, the, the, the question models that you'd be able to ask. But I'm like, I wanna kind of feel you and feel you out, and I wanna know who that is. 'Cause if I'm gonna work closely with you, I gotta know you, I gotta know your strengths, I gotta know your weaknesses. And so I think that is, like, the most important thing 'cause then you know who you're actually working with. And then from that perspective then, then it's like job description and KPIs. Um, and then the structures, you know, the, the structures that we have in Exit LS to be able to set up cadence of, you know, meeting structures and other things to be able to report back and what information needs to come back. Um, this is, you know, it's also how you stop the got a minute meetings. You know, sometimes new team members will come in, and they'll ask me a question. Um, they might send it through in, in chat or whatever, and I'm like, "That can wait." And so then it's training. What do I need n- you know, if it's urgent, bring it to me or bring it to your manager. If it's not urgent, then it can wait. And then over time, uh, well, that was urgent, and you missed it, so let's move that back to the next meeting, and you're gonna have to deal with the consequences type thing. And it's not a... It's just training behavior. Um, I'm also a big believer of, you know, I don't wait. If I gotta give you feedback, I'm not waiting ninety days for the next quarterly review, right? I will give it to you in the moment on the spot. Um, if it's like, you know, critical, I might pick up the phone if there's a few people on a meeting type thing. But, like, outside of that, it's just a part of a conversation versus something showing up, me thinking about it for the next eighty-nine days, seeing forty-three other examples of it over that period of time before I sit down across the table from you and have that conversation. And so it's just a lot more on the fly, course correct, not like that, like this. You know, intent was right, do it this way, you know, next time instead. Um, and I think that just creates the culture of ownership and accountability that people know, okay, like, if we say things, we're gonna do them. And I think, like, I think for so many business owners, you let this drift- Like, it's no wonder you lost control, and it's no wonder you're working 80 or 90 or 100 hours a week because they are running you now. And it doesn't mean that it's a dictatorship. It just means that there's a standard of culture, and this is how we operate here. And if you don't wanna, like, get in that boat and row in that direction, that is totally fine. Like, go you. It's just this is how we do it here, and this- these would be the expectations of it. And so I think these are the things how you close the gaps. It's not just JDs and KPIs and quarterly sit-downs. It's we are accountable. I'm accountable. You know? I'll say, "I messed this thing up. I, you know, should've done better here. I'm responsible for that. I made a, you know, I made a mistake that showed up while I was away." I was like, "That was totally me. You guys have been doing a good job trying to fix it. I was the problem. Let me fix it." And I went and fixed it. And so I think that honesty from the top as well, I mean, y- you know, everyone knows they've failed their way to get to where they are. You only learn through making mistakes and messing things up. How do we expect our entire team to be perfect 100% of the time? It's just a false expectation. Yeah. So true. Mm. So I'm really interested, before the conversation gets away from us, we talked about these prisons that w- you know, we sort of build for ourselves, which I think almost every founder goes through in those early stages, and you help, um, them sort of restructure it. Is it possible to structure it r- right from the beginning rather than having to go through this passage and pain of- Yeah, help us avoid the pain, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Help us avoid the pain. If there's someone, if there's someone listening right now- Yeah that is going, "Oh, can I avoid this?" Sounds like the, that's not the answer. How do I do it right from the beginning? I- it's the rite of passage, right? And I think, I think we've all been in the situat- you know, when we start- We go through, you know, like I said before, as a plumber, you know, there was six people on the team. Leadership from my boss was, you know, s- they'd swear at me, "Go get in the room, do the roughing, dig the hole, do the thing," you know, "Get on the roof," whatever. And that was just leadership. And so, um, I think what it comes down to is you have to go through and learn the lessons. There are some things with the frameworks and the strategies and the things that we have in place that the partners can come in, take it, and plug in. There are other things that you just need to go through. You know, I think leadership is the perfect example of this in hiring, right? You bring somebody in, they're the perfect hire. Three weeks in, three months in, and you're just like, "What happened? This person interviewed so well." And then you have to go back and go, "What are the interview questions?" So, you know, over time you up your interview questions, you ask better quality questions, you do certain things, and then that improves, and then you get them in. And so, um, yes, I think there's a case for people that... I, I think, you know, people that have been in corporatized businesses often are really quite good at coming in and plugging in our system because they've worked in tiers of management before. People that have started around their bedroom ta- you know, bedroom table or kitchen table or have kind of worked through, you know, smaller businesses often, they haven't been managed. They haven't managed up or down. They haven't done these things. So I'd say probably more so from a leadership perspective Sometimes you just gotta take the hits, and you've gotta learn where you went wrong on the other side of it. And I'll even say this, you know, when I'm talking with partners that are in a difficult spot. It's like, "We can't teach this to you. You have to feel what it's like making a bad decision, not holding somebody accountable, before you change. And then when you change, you'll show up differently. And the next time you see that behavior first time, you'll call that person on it, or a new person, and go, 'Hang on a minute, we don't do that here.'" I think this is, you know, this is why what I said before, it's like I'm, I'm quick to the punch on things because I've seen what happens with the bleed. Yeah. And so I wish there was a perfect model that nobody had to, um... I don't know. Is the word self-actualize? Nobody had to get better, nobody had to, like, learn and grow and develop. I haven't seen it yet. Um, when you find it, let me know. Um, but are there pieces of business and structures and so forth that you can learn? 100%. Um, and then I think, you know, the, the leadership game, the development game, the, you know, I, I paid that person too much money, I didn't pay them enough money, you know? And you gotta get the scars of that to form who you are. And if you look at every successful entrepreneur, you know, business owner, founder, call it what you want, it's just, you know, you just gotta pick yourself up and the faster that you get back on the horse. Like, used to take me a month to get over some things that I'll get over in three seconds now, honestly. Um, and so I think you gotta take the hits along the way, and I think there's areas that you can, you know, just go and plug in to be able to solve problems before they come up. Quickly on that, for our listeners, do you have any advice on picking yourself up? Any sort of things that you do to shorten that timeframe? Obviously, the first one hurts the most, and then you learn- keep learning, but how do you move through those failures more quickly, and h- how do you digest that so you can get back on the horse? I think it's like, why is adding more time before taking the next action going to benefit this? Mm, right. Right? So I can suffer for a month. Why? Did I learn the lesson? Did I like... 'Cause if I can actually stop, and I can kinda get outside myself for a minute, and I can go, "You know what? That was a bad hire. That was a bad, you know, decision. I should never have done that thing." If I can get the lesson and get back on the horse as quickly as possible, why am I injecting, injecting a month or a year or a decade or three decades in the middle of that? Because effectively it's going from failure to failure to failure as quickly as possible, right? And I don't wanna, like, put a negative tone on it. There's a lot of great things out of business. But we learn through those things, and then we get great opportunities. But your ability to be able to collapse time, I believe, is ultimately redu- resilience. You know? This happened. That sucks. Wh- why do I need to sit and labor on that thing for six weeks when I could actually, you know... And, and I think this is a skill, right? Did... You know, I'll, I'll chunk to the greatest. Did I die? No. You know, is everyone in my family, like, safe and, and things are good, and there's money in the bank account? Yes. So how impactful and how important is this actually? I had an expectation. It didn't get met. Okay What am I gonna learn by injecting time into this versus going, okay, I got my lesson, get on with it? And you know, my belief is like, I'm gonna make so many more mistakes, I might as well just collapse them together as quickly as possible, and realize that like I don't have to get it perfect. I'm never gonna get it perfect. And the faster that I can accelerate through that learning curve is as quick as I solve that problem, so that's not a problem anymore. Sure, there's another set waiting, but by the time you get to the new ones, you've already developed the attributes, the skills, the resilience, the like actually I went through that, I can get through this. Let's get on with it. And so I think the- for, for me at least, and this is kinda how I talk about it to the partners when I'm talking with them in tough spots, is like you know what? Sometimes you need this, you know, but you don't need to drag it out over a decade. If we can get through it in 10 minutes and, you know, make a new hire or do the new thing, then let's get on with it and let's do that. Mm. Yeah. So speaking of that process, what's keeping you up at night with your business? I'm pretty good right now. And that's really annoying to say. Does that, does that scare you though? Does that scare you though if you're, you know- What's coming? Yeah. What's waiting in the- Yeah. Is that- Yeah. No. 'Cause like I think that's a great question. I'm so clear on what the constraint is that I'm working on at the moment in my business, and like I look around and I go, delivery's in a great spot, and operations is in a great spot. And then I'm head of growth, you know, so I'm looking after sort of marketing and, and advisory. And so I'm managing that at the moment as I kind of scale myself out of those, uh, to whatever level, you know, I sort of haven't figured out 'cause I like doing stuff. Um, but I'm not like tactically on the, on the ground doing the doing. And so it absolutely does not scare me. I, you know, I've... You know, the last 18 months is there's been sort of multiple things that have, you know, really been real hard hits. You know, the hardest probably hits that I've had. And did I die? Is my family safe? Is everything okay? Um, and so- I'm fortunate to be able to say that, you know? Like, just got back from three weeks holidays, 19 emails, most of them were, like, insurance, you know, like, stuff like that. And so I'm not sitting around waiting for the, you know, the, the dark scary monster to come around the corner. Like, things are in a pretty good spot. I know that whatever comes up I'm gonna be able to handle and deal with. And so, um, doesn't mean that there's not things that I'm working on right now. There's things that I'm working on, for sure, and they get my attention and it's, you know, and it's growth for us. Um, but I'm not, I'm not, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not scared, I'm not worried. You know, my thing is I wake up at 3:00 o'clock in the morning when I've got problems with the team. Um, and I'll wake up at 3:00 o'clock in the morning before I know that I've got a problem. Right. Yeah. And so it's kinda like there's a precursor of, like, hang on a minute- There's something going on there's a misalignment here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I've learned that about myself, that I'm like, there's a, you know, there's some, some stuff. But, like, we went through a restructure last year. Um, you know, we grew to a certain headcount, and then we cut headcount and found some efficiency and so forth. Um, and the team's just in a great spot and, you know, things are going really, really well. So I'm not waking up at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, I look around and go, "Things are pretty damn good." Um, and I can tell you there's more than a decade where I couldn't answer that way. So, um, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not s- But, like, why, you know, what would have to happen now for me to feel, like, out of control or, you know, something like that? I don't know. Like, it'd have to be pretty big for me to drop back in. And then you could argue, like, well, maybe you're not growing fast enough, and I wouldn't necessar- you know, or maybe you're not creating problems at the, at the speed that you need to. Um- I think, you know, second stage squeeze is what got you here, won't get you to the next level. So I don't... It's not like I need to throw 100 hours a week at something right now to solve a problem, which has historically been the tool of choice 'cause you've got time. Um, and because the structure's right, it means that if there's a problem with a department, I can go and talk to somebody. You know, most people in the team report to some- my COO, not me. And so if there's a problem that, you know, shows itself, it's probably being stopped at a level before it even gets to me anyway. But I'm not getting reports on anything that's, like, not that great. And so I really truly think when you get the, the structure and the infrastructure right, and it's, you know, there's a good sales pitch for the, you know, for what we do too. It's like, yeah, I just took three weeks off. I didn't come back to a total... I didn't come back to a mess. You know, there was some things to work on, but I didn't come back to a mess. I didn't have to work 100 hours a week. I didn't have to work for three weeks to try and solve every problem and think about every step before I went away on holidays. Like, the structure's right, and so the structure and the team and the capability and the ownership, that carries, that carries the load so that I don't have to. And I think, you know, what would make that misaligned, um, you know, I'm sure it'll happen. Um, but I'm not there right now, and probably haven't been for at least, you know, a couple of months, so. I, I think that's such an interesting thermostat, isn't it? If I'm waking up at 3:00 in the morning, something's not aligned, so there's a problem I've gotta go and solve. Yeah, I, I really like that. All right, so let me, let me put you on the spot then a little bit more. What's the next three years look like for Exit? So- We wanna get Australia right and Australia, New Zealand right. Uh, once we do that, I'd like to think that there's a North American market, and there's a, um, UK market as well. Um, I think timing on those things, they're on the three-year roadmap. They're not fixed on certain dates just yet. You know, we've got a phase to get through, which, which will kind of tell us a lot. But I'd say we wake up in three years, and, you know, the economy hasn't totally crashed and the whole world bur- burned down, we're probably at least in one region, and probably two more. So if someone is listening to this, and they recognize that their business is in this second stage squeeze right now, what is the single most important move they should make in the next 30 days? Not to fix everything, but to start breaking the cycle. Um, they could book an audit with my team. Good answer too. That's a really good answer. I'll open that right up for you. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it'll find the constraint of what their biggest bottleneck is, and be able to paint it clearly, and go, "This, this is the problem. This is the time suck. This is the thing that you need to fix." Outside of that, you know, it's the theory of constraints, right? What is the thing that's stopping, you know, the water from flowing, flowing downstream? And once I release that constraint, then there's gonna be a bottleneck somewhere else. And so it's effectively that being diagnosed by, you know, someone that spent years in the back of businesses like my team has. And, um, but I think it's- It's like you can't just throw more time at it. You can't just, like, go to the whiteboard and map out a plan and turn up on Monday morning and expect things are different. Like, it's a structural problem, right? The second stage squeeze is like you threw time and energy and resources at it, and it got you here, and look at where you are. You created it, but you wouldn't be here, you wouldn't be in these s- you wouldn't be in this situation if you didn't have success. So it's like the very success that you had is the reason that you're here. But it doesn't always have to be this way, like the builder mate that I talked about. His, you know, his option was to, like, boil it down and, and just, you know, he's got three guys on the team now, I think, but he's got a job forever. The other option is you gain some skills, and that's the thing that will allow you to have a company, to take time off, to spend time with your family, to race cars. Do your thing, right? And so I think it's, it's finding that constraint, and then it's, like, understanding what that is and moving through that of going, "Okay, like, this is the thing that's gonna solve the problem." And I think if people can do that, yeah, it's not, let me... Like, it's not go to the whiteboard and brain dump everything. It could be, but you've got to have a strategy in behind that to change the structure because otherwise you've got a longer list of shit to do, and now you've actually got to go and, like, execute that somehow in the time that you don't already have. And so it's a structural thing that must change in the business. So I just, like, I, I can't stress that enough. Like, it's, it's not a longer list of stuff to do. It's focusing on... You've got to let a few fires burn, right? You can't, you can't just be across everything. It's never gonna work. You have to learn to be able to let some stuff burn and solve the key issues. But if you don't know what the key issues are, and you can't isolate that with, like, pinpoint accuracy, laser focus. And if you get it wrong, you could spend six months working on the wrong thing, and many people do. And, you know, I've done that historically as well. Um, so I think what people can do is get so clear on what that constraint is and then go, "Right, how am I gonna solve this? How am I gonna get 10 hours back a week to work on the business?" Um, that would be the best thing. Yeah. All right. Before we get to our quick-fire questions at the end, Andrew, I'd, I'd love your view on this. If we zoom out at looking at the- Yes the broader founder-led business landscape in Australia, or for that matter, anywhere, um, where do you think the conversation around owner dependence and business scalability needs to go next? Or said another way, what is still not being said loudly enough that you wis- wished more founders would hear? I think that- The coaching industry is a broken model. Wow. And I think, you know, many, you know, many people in, in this industry are some of my best friends, and I just think so much of it is designed to keep people sticky to programs without solving core problems that extract founders. And so when I built Exit, the goal was: how do we actually get them to quit with us and make it so good that ideally they'd want to stay? And private equity wouldn't love that at all if they ever, you know, came knocking. But it's like if people are leaving us because the problem is solved, then we actually solved the problem. Like, you don't go to the doctor and, you know, get some pills for a headache or whatever, right? And oh, it didn't work. You know, you don't keep going to the doctor and taking the same Panadol pill as what you took before. And so, like, I just have this, like, internal belief, and this is why, like, a r- you know, this founder extraction idea was like we can't keep doing it the same way because so many people are in this, like, ongoing education. I need you to watch more videos, and do more work, and do more of these things, and consume more. And my, like, core internal belief is like, if it worked, why do you, like, need to keep going back? And so, like, that is just, like, the nucleus of my thoughts around founder extraction, and I think- That is what I think we need to talk more about. That is what I think, you know, um... Because I think, like, if you can do that, you'll get more referrals anyway. So, like, the com- you know, let's fight the commercial sides of it. If people come and spend two or three years with us, we'll change their entire life, and then they can leave, and they go and tell all their mates, and they give us the best testimonial because we solved the problem. Now, some people will come and, you know, they've been w- been with me even before the name was Exit on the Door, and they come, and they're scaling, and they're solving their problems, and that's great. But I think there's also been people that I've, I've gone, "You, you're done." Like, "Come back later on, but, like, you're great. You're done." And that is so, like, different from everything, where it's like every... You know? And, and, like, I've... I would have calls with them, and they'd be ready for, like, objection handling, me trying to, like, sell them again, and it's like, I'm not here for that. I'm here to say, like, "You're done. We solved the problem. Your team's in. You just took six weeks away in a nine-week period, and the business is great." Like, we actually solved the problem. And so that is, I think, the conversation that needs to be had, and, and I'd be, you know, very happy for, you know, many people to get on board with. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. Well, I do have one other quick one, though. Um, cheat codes. We- Oh, yeah we like, we like shortcuts and cheat codes. Now, you might say- Oh, here we go no. Yeah, yeah. Oh, look, it's a human thing, right? As the psychology guy- Oh you would know it's a human thing, right? Ah. Based on all the clients you've worked with, your own experience, as painful, Andrew, as this is, are there some cheat codes or some shortcuts that people who wanna get from level one into level two or, and beyond should be taking? Yeah, the goal is to get to stage three, right, which is scale mode, uh, without the constraints. The cheat code is talent. The cheat code is spending way more money than you're comfortable spending, and you hate the amount of money that you spend on a person, and then you put them into your business, and you go, "Oh, this is what it's supposed to be like." And so... But you have to be like... The, you know, this comes with a caveat. 'Cause it- you have to be skilled at- Hiring, knowing what great looks like, expectations and so forth. 'Cause otherwise you'll overpay and you'll get the same, you know, horrible product. But, um, but I think the hack is great people that can come in and lift things off you and, and get you where you need to go. So if there's a hack, it's, it's the quality of the talent. Because otherwise, like I said before, you end up with all these task-doers, and they're all sitting, and they're waiting, and they're turning up to their meetings, and they're asking you questions, and they're filling your inbox with stuff. Um, and so the hack is finding great talent. And for all the, you know, construction and all the other industries, we work in, uh, kind of across all service base. We do have some product base, but you would just kinda broadly call a service-based business. Um, there are great people in your area, in your industry. It's a false belief to say anything otherwise, and I just know as I got better, and I create better opportunities, and my leadership got better, epic people came to me instead of me needing to go and try and pull epic people away from epic opportunities. And so it is just a game that, like, as you get better and you provide better opportunities, better quality people will come to you. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. That's great advice. So that wasn't so hard, Andrew, was it? That's high value. Uh. Oh. I know it hurt. Yes. I know it hurt. All right. S- uh, you, you got one out of me, but there's not too many more than that. I think it's, um... Yeah. All right. Yeah. I think it might be time for our quick-fire questions. Absolutely. So, uh, Andrew, we're gonna throw 10 rapid-fire questions at you just to get to know you- All righty a little bit more personally. Um, we just ask- Yep that you answer them in a sentence or less. Are you ready, Steve? I'm ready. All right. You're gonna take the lead on this one? I'll take the lead on this one, yeah. Okay. Okay. You ready, Andrew? I'm ready. All right, here we go. Are you an office or work from home guy? Office. I've got two kids at home. What was your first job? In my dad's printing factory as a collator. I collated paper. Mm-hmm. Your go-to productivity hack? Office. Android or iPhone? Oh, iPhone. What's your coffee order? Uh, double espresso. Oh. Uh, if you weren't doing what you do now, what career would you choose? I'd be a performance coach for sporting teams. Mm. Ooh. Yeah. What's the best investment you've ever made? Psychology, education. Early riser or night owl? Oh, early. Yep. Early. Mm. One piece of tech you couldn't live without. iPhone. What's your book or podcast recommendation? Podcast recommendation would be Garry Neville with Stephen, so on the Diary of the CEO. Yep. Very specific, but that's a great one. Yeah, awesome. Mm. I'll have to tune into that. Thank you. All righty. Um, last question, Andrew. So if business truly is a game, Andrew Sparks, what's your definition of winning? Time and money freedom. So it's decision freedom. I think profit gives you financial freedom, and time gives you the choice to do whatever the hell you want, kind of whenever you wanna do. So it's decision freedom, which is made off of both of those. Yeah. All right. Fantastic. That's great. Now, where can our listeners find out more about you and the business? Yep. So you could go to the website, which is myexit, M-Y-E-X-Y-T.com, or you can follow me directly on Instagram, theandrewsparks, or any of the other channels as well. Great. All right. Fantastic. Andrew, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. It was a pleasure, um- Yeah. It's been great speaking with you. Yeah. Uh, I love the insights you gave into the industry, and I loved getting that last little one out of you at the end there. Yeah. Thank you. I, I know how much that hurt. Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys have got a great show here, and I, I wouldn't say that for anyone. I think this has been a really professional experience as well, so kudos to you guys, and- Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. All right. That's all we've got time for. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game, and check out the playlist for the level of business you're currently playing. Because every founder is somewhere on the game board, from zero all the way to over $50 billion. Choose your level, and we'll see you next time