34. The Journey to Healing: Trauma Recovery and the Art of Boundary Setting with Natalie Jovanic

In this episode of "Good Enough," host Jamie Vollmoeller welcomes Natalie Jovanic, a registered master therapeutic counselor and trauma recovery coach. Natalie shares her integrative approach to trauma recovery, which includes IFS, somatic approaches, EMDR, and attachment practices. She discusses her personal healing journey from childhood abuse and the importance of setting healthy boundaries. The conversation covers the complexities of trauma recovery, the significance of pacing and building positive resources, and the challenges of setting boundaries, especially with family and in romantic relationships. Both speakers emphasize the need for trauma-informed care, self-care, and integrating anti-oppressive practices in therapy.

Here are the main topics of discussion 

- Introduction of Natalie Jovanic and her expertise in trauma recovery
- Natalie's personal journey and how it influenced her path to becoming a counselor
- Natalie's approach to trauma recovery, including working with the nervous system and setting healthy boundaries
- The importance of pacing the trauma recovery process and building positive resources
- Challenges of setting boundaries, particularly with family members and in romantic relationships
- The significance of self-care and taking breaks when setting boundaries with family members
- Discussion on the challenges of setting boundaries, especially for those who have learned to take on responsibility for other people's emotions
- The importance of trauma-informed care and body-based approaches in therapy
- Making trauma recovery accessible and integrating anti-racist and anti-oppressive practices in therapy

https://brighthorizontherapies.com/
https://www.instagram.com/brighthorizontherapies/
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliejovanic/

Podcast: Trauma Demystified https://traumademystified.buzzsprout.com/

"Good Enough with the Trauma Therapist" is your companion on this transformative journey. Tune in for heart-to-heart conversations, expert interviews, and a sprinkle of humor, because, after all, you are good enough, and your journey to a fulfilling life starts here.

If you are looking for trauma-informed therapist:

New Yorkers visit www.liemdr.com

Missourians visit resilient-mo.com

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00:00) -  Welcome to Good Enough. I am your host, Jamie Vollmer. And today we are here with Natalie. Yo, yo.

Speaker 2 (00:00:09) -  Yo, Bennett. That's fine. No problem.

Speaker 1 (00:00:13) -  they are a registered master, therapeutic counselor, and trauma recovery coach specializing in helping individuals worldwide who've experienced trauma and loss. They use an integrative approach to trauma recovery, combining IFS, informed parts, work, somatic approaches, eMDR, and antidepressant practices. Natalie is dedicated to supporting clients in regaining control over their lives, firmly believing that healing is possible regardless of past experiences. Natalie is also the author of a memoir, A Brave True Story, where they share their personal journey of healing from childhood abuse. Welcome to the podcast, Natalie. So glad to have you here.

Speaker 2 (00:00:56) -  Thank you Jamie. I'm very happy to be here and I'm curious what people talk about.

Speaker 1 (00:01:02) -  So honestly, I was very I love counselors who bring their personal experience into their work, because I just feel like it helps us relate so much more deeply with our clients when we've been through what they've been through.

Speaker 1 (00:01:17) -  So my first question would really be like how? With your and I'm sure you go through this in your book, but how did your childhood kind of influence the path that you took? And definitely a counselor.

Speaker 2 (00:01:30) -  I like, if I'm honest, I wouldn't be a counselor without my title. So I became a counselor after I did a lot of my own healing. I also need to say, I have a diverse experience with counselors and approaches and therapists. And so some of them were well, and some of them didn't. So I think my healing journey was successful. However, I also had some obstacles in it, which taught me a lot around how I want to be as a counselor and where I need to be very mindful. I think my own journey about healing childhood abuse taught me a lot around stigma. like, there is this kind of thing around. I thought when I was here I would never need to face stigma again. But then I noticed, oh, no matter how healthy I am, I will always face stigma.

Speaker 2 (00:02:16) -  So there was this kind of disappointment after kind of I felt like, okay, I've worked through a lot of that, like I experienced, just to be specific, I experienced sexual abuse. My family was largely emotionally abusive. my stepfather was physically violent, but in the end, my sister was more targeted by it because I'm this type of person. If there is a threat of physical violence, I shut down. So I did everything I could to avoid it. But I also I'm aware that later on in my life, it didn't necessarily help me with boundary setting and all these kind of things. So yeah, so I think for me there are very different layers on how we can heal. And I still I'm aware, I understand people have experienced childhood abuse better than people who had a happy childhood, because I kind of get the complications around how to learn to set healthy boundaries. And I think we often simplify it so much. However, for somebody who has experienced abuse, it's not that easy because first of all, I wasn't even aware about my boundaries.

Speaker 2 (00:03:20) -  I didn't even know where they were. So a lot of my journey was playing around and experimenting, and I now have them. And it also is an everyday process to check in with me. Where's my boundary to check in with maybe parts that sometimes feel overpowered by others and like, how can I take care of them? So there is a diversity in the experience, and I think it is helpful for me to also explain clients expectations, because I think sometimes the expectations is, first of all, they're self-blame. Oh, why haven't I done it better? Or why am I not better in it? But then the expectation is I change it immediately and then I say, hey, be aware, there may be complex inner dynamics within you that sometimes prevent you from having the healthy boundary you want to have. And our job here is to become curious so that you can be more aligned with yourself.

Speaker 1 (00:04:13) -  Oh my God, love everything you just that I resonate so deeply as like a fellow trauma kid of like not the word having boundaries.

Speaker 1 (00:04:23) -  Like even knowing what a boundary was. It's not really an option when you're in survival mode in child, Right. I just loved all of that. So in ifs work and I. And I love that you do it for us because, I want to be trained. I'm not trained yet, but I had a therapist who did it along with eMDR, and that was very, very helpful for me because, as you were saying, with your child, like you went into shutdown mode, and that does come out in adulthood, right? So you have these different roles that we play throughout our lives that will pop back up and if we're not aware, can kind of take over and make us do things that are true self would not like to do.

Speaker 2 (00:05:11) -  Yes. Okay, I need to say my approach to artwork draws on different modalities. and I think for child abuse. what I really love is also the work from Janina Fisher. and she speaks about healing the fragment itself of childhood survivors or trauma survivors.

Speaker 2 (00:05:29) -  I'm not sure. Like, here's a book about it. And I attended a lot of her training, and she speaks about the theory of structural dissociation, which explains when trauma happened to us, that parts of us become these rational parts that are focusing on surviving and and that I just don't want to face overwhelming emotions and the emotional parts that we usually put behind the wall. And so a lot of my own healing, which I did in Spain, was reconnecting the different parts. And I also think we live in a world where rational parts are favored, but the emotional parts are often stigmatized and not appreciated. And so I really learned to appreciate all of my parts. And like, even if they have difficult emotions, they often tell us that something is off in the present moment. I don't fully agree that if they are activated, that it's only the past, like in some occasions, yes, but very often if, for example, my part shows up that is angry, I need to take in the present relationship what is going on and maybe where do I miss out on a boundary? Yeah, so I really learned to discern that.

Speaker 2 (00:06:38) -  Yes. Like sometimes the emotional intensity can be less, but in the end, I still think all of the parts when they show up have a meaningful message for us. And it's about how can we start being curious about them, listen to them, and really have a connection with them. So I did a lot of inner child work, in my own healing journey. and I also did a lot of this work to reconnect with, and I think an inner child with a target, magical child like this healthy part of us, which is connected with our intuition, which is kind of knowing the path for us. And so I know that there are many different concepts out there and different labels. So in a way I draw from very different modalities. I also like if in a child doesn't resonate with people, we completely let it go. But I think a lot of wholeness is that we can be in relation with our parts, and that the next step then really is how can we release the burden that the parts carry, because some of them just carry a heavy burden and they change all the time.

Speaker 2 (00:07:45) -  Like parts are just like good friends. Like as we change, our parts change. And also parts may really depend on the context. And I have different parts that show up in different contexts. And, and so like when we start valuing them, also we can more and more connect with ourself internally I would say. so. I use parts work a lot. I use it for myself. I also use polymer theory a lot because I think it explains us how our nervous system responds. And yes, then I'm trained in eMDR, so I use also eMDR for memory processing. But you can use eMDR for parts work too. So I combine these different elements. and it really depends on the client because we are all different and sometimes one modality doesn't work in the moment. Maybe it works later on, but like it's really like, how can we meet clients where they are at? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:08:41) -  And I and I love that all the modalities that you're like, they're all about the the nervous system regulation and bringing it back to our bodies.

Speaker 1 (00:08:48) -  And that is so very important for all of us trauma survivors, because we're really good at the logical we're really good at the problem solving. Right? But we're not so good at being in our bodies and listening to our bodies and being present in the moment. yeah. So, yeah. how do you approach this with clients? Like what? How would you tailor your approach to like that? Or do you want to give an example of a client that you've done some work with with those approaches? How about the luck?

Speaker 2 (00:09:23) -  Okay. like primarily it's get to know each other process becomes okay. in the first session, I usually have a conversation what has happened to the client, where they are at, what they want to work on. And then it's really like, if I'm honest, I start with parts work. and since I have an integrated approach, like in theory, eMDR also has a stabilization phase. But like the first stage of trauma recovery for me is really like, what are the symptoms the client is having? Where do we need maybe to work on stabilizing and creating more in a safety? So it's not about jumping to the most traumatic events and working with them, but it's really about what's going in the lives.

Speaker 2 (00:10:04) -  And also where are those parts that are really scared of the process? How can we connect with them, understand their concerns? So it is a stepwise process, and I usually start working with the nervous system, working with boundaries, working with the different parts, and then seeing like when is the client confident that they can look at the past. And when we have regulated the system enough that we can do the trauma reprocessing. And honestly, this process is so individually unique. Like, I work with some people who live with the idea and like for them, the process is is is more slow in general. Like the I would say the more complex the trauma was that happened to an individual, the slower the process. But also it's not something to be frustrated about, but it's also something to really pace it and be respectful for the part. Like what I learned is, the most important thing is that we really are respectful in the rhythm with the different parts, and that we don't overwhelm them, that we don't overload them so that we really take it step by step.

Speaker 2 (00:11:10) -  And I know it can sometimes be frustrating for people because it may be slower than they hope it would be.

Speaker 1 (00:11:16) -  Yeah, we get that a lot for at our practice because we're known for eMDR and people come in and be like, I want to do processing. And it's like, that's not exactly how it works. Like, we gotta make sure that your nervous system is regulated. We gotta make sure that you're ready to go into that. And you have good coping skills so that in between our sessions, we know you can regulate yourself. And if things come up, you're gonna be okay. and I do think that's really important because there's I've heard a lot of horror stories of people who weren't resource properly before going to war. You know, all of those things that can be. I understand why people want to, like, go fast and break things like I'm very much that person. It's like, yeah, let's just get to the hard stuff. But it's you need to get to the deeper stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:11:58) -  Or what I've found too is that with me, I've even had therapies that have jumped to just like processing and I my parts were not ready for that. Right? So my brain would not allow me to go there like it would just be blank. And then that's even more frustrating for your client because they feel like, well, even this thing that's supposed to cure me is and isn't working and nothing is. So I'd be curious. But that's just the thought.

Speaker 2 (00:12:23) -  Yes. Like I honestly, I've learned like, I think if eMDR isn't, the memory reprocessing of eMDR isn't working, it's because something is missed out in in the earlier steps. And I think sometimes it's useful to go back and forth and it's not being a failure. It's really like acknowledging like peeling an onion. If there is something that isn't working, we need to look at, okay, what happens underneath it, what we haven't seen yet, what we haven't found out yet, and how can we connect, whether it's a part or whether it's maybe a resource that's still missing? And I think also sometimes it's really building, first off, positive resources.

Speaker 2 (00:12:58) -  I think many people aren't aware how many positive resources they have because trauma disconnects us from it. And I also think often the narrative around trauma is only focusing on on the negative symptoms. And I need to say, in my own life, I have a really good intuition. And I know in the end it came from the trauma that happened to me. But on the other hand, it's a really helpful resource to have. And and so it's really about normalizing the process and being aware sometimes a back and forth and sometimes, you know, if you work five minutes on a memory and then we need to take a break, that's perfectly fine because you already started integrating it. And I think we sometimes have very rigid expectations that we also put out there how easy it's supposed to be, but it's not that simple. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:13:47) -  I think I think anyone who's experienced especially complex trauma, it's it's kind of like a lifelong journey even. And you take breaks, right? You have periods where you're really good and then you have period for like something will happen, like you lose a loved one and it brings up a lot of, you know, emotion.

Speaker 1 (00:14:03) -  And we need to in some old triggers and we need to kind of go back and work on that again. And I think as life changes, we change and we look at things differently. So, you know, it's for me, recovery is more about doing better than I did before. So, you know, even if I still struggle to set a boundary, if I said it sooner this time than last time, like, that's that's a win, right? We're gonna look at that as a positive thing. I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:14:34) -  I also think we need to acknowledge even setting boundaries. Like, for me, it's an art form. And then if I'm faced by completely new situations, I may not be fully aware where my boundary is because I've never lived through this situation. So how shall I know? Like, I think for me it's very much like curiosity, but also, yeah, life will happen and sometimes, like at least my own story. I had a lot of trauma happening after I did my healing, and then suddenly I said, then I said, oh, now I need to do a lot of more healing.

Speaker 2 (00:15:03) -  And and on one hand, it was useful because I could draw on the resources I already had. But on the other hand, I was like, I think I had this naive expectation. Once I've healed my childhood, I will never have trauma again if this didn't work out well.

Speaker 1 (00:15:20) -  That's. I feel like a lot of people feel that way. And they do feel I've had clients that have like graduated therapy, and then something happens and they come back and I feel like such a failure. And I think it's really, really important for people to know that that's not a failure. Like that's part of life. And trauma is going to happen if it happens all the time.

Speaker 2 (00:15:39) -  Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:15:40) -  Yeah. So, when you're, when we're talking about boundaries, right. What are some of the boundaries that you think that your clients have struggled the most with?

Speaker 2 (00:15:55) -  What? I'm okay. Here's the thing. Like, since I'm non-binary, I worked a lot with gender diverse people. So on one hand, I would say boundaries with the dominant group are really complicated.

Speaker 2 (00:16:05) -  And the other huge area where I see boundaries with the family system are extremely complicated. And and there is a very or in even romantic relationships, it is really sometimes a complicated thing to say. Is it worth staying? Do I need to leave? and making this decision. And I think everyone has their own decision. Like I don't have contact to my family of origin. Like, on one hand, my mother died when I was young, but then my my father and my sister, they never changed. So they had very emotionally abusive behavior. And in one stage in my life I said, no, I don't want to be there anymore. And this was my choice. I also know it comes with a price. because if you don't have connection with your family, you lose a lot of safety around it. So I don't have a solution for clients so I can give the space that they can explore how they want to navigate it. Like especially when family members are either unwilling to acknowledge the truth or, they never change.

Speaker 2 (00:17:08) -  And so I think it's complicated. Now, honestly, I'm not sure what is a good what is the right boundary in this moment. Like we all need to find it out by ourselves. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:17:19) -  I think that, you know, setting boundaries with family members is a really common theme that I hear my clients talk about. And a lot of that has to do with, you know, whether or not they trust their own judgment or their their fear to being shunned or they're feared, that they're not going to be liked anymore or or that they're going to be berated. Right. It really depends on, like, what their history was. but I think that so many of my clients, when they start like it either goes one of two ways, right? First, trauma kids who would never set boundaries. We either set those boundaries and our parents are, you know, responsive or family members are responsive and say, like, we understand, I'm sorry, let's let's prepare now and move forward. Right.

Speaker 1 (00:18:05) -  or you have parents that are just not just sticking in denial. and in my family, we've also had that and had to cut people off because we, you know, set the boundary with them and then they just gaslight you. And there's only so long that you can do that. But where it's like, I love my family and I want to be with them, but I also need to love myself enough to not put myself through this repeatedly. which was really, really hard. But when my husband were going through that. Because you never want to cut somebody out. Can you understand that? Even those people, they have their own trauma, right? Like they have. There's a reason they are the way they are. And we can know that and have empathy for them. but I think it's been that's been the hardest thing for a lot of my clients is to recognize that some people are not going to change and then making that decision around, how do I navigate that now? Yeah. and as a result, it's complicated.

Speaker 2 (00:19:01) -  I would even say if somebody starts to set boundaries with their family system in the beginning, there's just more tension. Like sometimes they are lucky that the other person immediately respects it. But sometimes there is resistance. And so then the difficult balance is how long do you hope that change is possible, and when do you really say no? This behavior is not respectful for me and I need to protect myself. Like like there is a very delicate balance and every person needs to, in the end, find their own answer in this journey.

Speaker 1 (00:19:37) -  Yeah. And I think it's also like some people might just take a break, right? They, they they're trying to set boundaries. They know their parents trying, but it's still not where they'd like it to be. And maybe they just like, okay, I'm going to take a break for a little bit. Not that they're not going to talk to them. They don't need to announce that, but just for their own so they can gear up again to get ready to continue to be consistent with those boundaries.

Speaker 1 (00:19:59) -  And that's important for our self-care. Yeah. For sure. So. Other than, like, family systems. Like what other issues do you see? For me, I know a lot of people that don't trust their judgment might have issues setting boundaries because they feel like, they're they're wrong.

Speaker 2 (00:20:31) -  Okay. I think when it comes to boundaries, one of the dynamic which is difficult, is if somebody has learned as a child to take on responsibility that is not theirs, like responsibility for other people's emotions. I think it can be really hard to set boundaries because there are those parts that feel responsible for the emotions. So we need to work with these parts first so that there is a better understanding about what's healthy and what's not. Yeah. And the other thing is, and I think this is sometimes these are these loyal parts with our family members or those parts that understand their trauma variable. it is a little bit having like putting the part that holds the empathy first, but forgetting about the other parts, like maybe the ink part, maybe other parts that tell me, oh, there is a boundary violated.

Speaker 2 (00:21:22) -  And so I think this can prevent us from having boundaries. But as I said, like these are really, really long processes. Like sometimes I work with clients who are in their 40s. And then they say to me, well, why did it took me so long to identify this? And I'm.

Speaker 1 (00:21:37) -  Like, well.

Speaker 2 (00:21:38) -  We can't force the process. It's really like we can just work with what we are aware of in the moment. And if you aren't aware of the dynamic, we cannot work with that. So and this is a bit like I think there is where we need to be, have patience with ourself and also compassion, because if we are not aware of it, how shall we know? Like I've, I noticed a part of me that had extreme fear of abandonment in my early 40s, and I wasn't aware of this part, and it never showed up in my healing journey before. And suddenly I was sitting there with a really intense body emotion. And and so I think we need to be aware that it's really like a process and we cannot know everything in the first two years of our healing.

Speaker 2 (00:22:25) -  No.

Speaker 1 (00:22:26) -  Yeah. I mean, for me, I know I have two distinct parts that tend to be opposing and like one of them, I say she's my people pleasing me. And then I have my like, don't, don't give an ass Jamie like he needs me. That's like the hard boundaries. I'm done. Right? and a lot of my work with my therapist has been around trying to create harmony between those two parts. Yeah, because you need to me is very like that. Angry. Like we need a boundary. And the people pleasing part of me is like the bleeding heart. That's like. But everyone needs some shoes, like so. And it's still a work in progress for me now, even like I. But I'm aware of it. So like like you were saying, it's easier for me now if I have something coming up for me. At the end of the day, I'll check in with myself and be like, all right, who in the family here is upset? And let's have a conversation about it.

Speaker 1 (00:23:20) -  and we ended a family hug and it's really like it's it's repackaging yourself. Yes. It's re parenting those like, parts of you and learning to have self-compassion, especially towards the part of you that, you know, like my teenage self, that was a part of me that all my other parts were afraid of. And I tend to like push down because you don't get a lot of positive attention and feedback when you're being aggressive, right? So that was a part of me that was repeatedly pushed down. But what would happen is she would bubble up because she was needed, because you can't just let everyone walk on you all the time. So yeah, it's it's really is a process. And it gets easier that I will say it's it gets easier and I'm more able to recognize, oh, I'm struggling with wanting to help other people and wanting to set this boundary. And now we have to have a conversation about middle ground and what we can do that's going to make the whole self happy and keep us safe and calm and not in chronic stress mode, because I think that's what the lack of boundaries to it just perpetuates this chronic stress, because people just take on more and more and more trying to help everyone.

Speaker 1 (00:24:32) -  And it's like a really unrealistic expectation. And most of the people that are, you know, taking, taking, taking, because we're such givers, we tend to attract people that don't really give. And they just they just suck our energy out.

Speaker 2 (00:24:48) -  I agree, like, I think for me in boundaries, the part that took longest to navigate was the empathetic part that really understood where the other side came from. And really, you know, being aware the part is there, but then also saying, no, I don't care. In this moment, my boundary is more important. Yeah. And and you're really right. Like I know is in my body if something is off with my parts. And so then if I have connected with them and sorted that out, I feel the calmness in my body. And I think this is always like when I feel this turmoil, I know, okay, there's something I need to attend to, whatever it is. And then they all.

Speaker 1 (00:25:26) -  Talk to me and.

Speaker 2 (00:25:27) -  Then I'm like, okay, now, how do we navigate and take a step forward? And I also think parts can have different boundaries. And so then it's really how can be negotiated. Yeah. But the boundaries of the parts of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:25:42) -  And and that's really I think that's part of the the lifeline journey is just like figuring out different roles at different times to, for all those parts, because the roles that we have at one stage, our life is not necessarily going to be productive or helpful in another life. Yeah. and learning to just be more aware of those body sensations. For me, I've been in therapy since I'm eight years old. Right. So I had a lot of therapists that were more like CBT and talk therapies, and I didn't really get into like any brain based or really trauma focused counseling until I became a therapist and knew what it was and sought out those therapists. Right. Because I didn't know what was out there. But the the difference in my progress when I was doing more, trauma informed care was really, really significant.

Speaker 1 (00:26:36) -  And I was listening to your podcast, Trauma Demystified. And you went beautifully into, you know, why talk therapy is not always the best thing for trauma survivors. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:26:52) -  Like, I tried traditional psychotherapy, which didn't work at all. Like, honestly, apart from the thing that I, I don't know, I found our relationship quite toxic, but when I now look back. But I didn't get her, like, I didn't even know what was expected from me. And I was lucky enough to really find those people who did the body orientation and who didn't talk that much. and it really helped me so much in my recovery. And they were all trauma informed. And then when I became a counselor, I kind of needed to sort out all the different approaches and also the understanding not all approaches are trauma focused or trauma informed. And this was really like the in my naive mind, I thought we all would be trauma focused as counselors, and I'm aware we are not. And I think for many clients it can be really confusing.

Speaker 2 (00:27:43) -  Like I agree, like CBT. Yes, sometimes it's useful to change my thoughts, but it doesn't change the body sensation. And so there is something missing.

Speaker 1 (00:27:52) -  Oh yeah, I always said it was like playing whack a mole, right? So like I knew how to, you know, rationalize the way out of it. I was very good at that. I knew all these thoughts were irrational. I knew all these thoughts were not helpful to me, and I just felt like I was a hamster on a wheel. or the analogy of whac-a-mole where, like I, a negative thought would come up and knock it down and another one would pop right back up and I knock it. It was just mentally exhausting. And then I felt even more like, how do I not have my anxiety under control? I've been in therapy forever like this, and I had it under control and that I was accessible human. And I functioned well right on the outside. No one would know that I really struggled, but internally, every day was really exhausting.

Speaker 1 (00:28:36) -  Just mentally battling with yourself. and that is because, like, I could know logically, but I say to my clients all times, like I didn't feel it in my body and my body. My chest was still tight, my muscles are still tight. I was still on high alert. So no matter what I said to all of these anxious thoughts about were coming up, it didn't really matter because my body and my nervous system are like, no, like we're in panic mode. You know? And I didn't know how at that time to, you know, calm it down. And that I think, it's really kind of tragic and it's. I don't remember learning any. I took one class in grad school on mindfulness, and that was it. That was it. There is nothing in grad school about like, free and all of these modalities that really are quite trauma informed and body based, are very expensive to train in and very, very hard to get into. so I do think that the public needs a little more education on that and why it's so important.

Speaker 2 (00:29:41) -  I would hope so. Like, I still like there's a part of me which is like. like some of these models were developed when we didn't even know understand trauma. And why don't we adjust the models like this? Just like. And I think there needs to be more communication on for clients to understand, you know, they are not failing in therapy. It just like the model is not for their experience and you need to really still personally, I believe any sort of healing is the combination of body, mind and and emotions and spirit. And somehow we need to integrate all of that. But it's not all of the models follow this path.

Speaker 1 (00:30:22) -  No, I think unfortunately, most of them therapists are probably not doing that. It's more just a lot of venting from what I hear from my clients. And although that feels good, right. It's it's the analogy is it's cutting the grass. So you need that every week to just cope and get by. And and not much is really changing. And when you go back to the body and you really do that, that deeper work and give yourself the tools to help regulate yourself and learn self compassion and learn how to accept all parts of you, rather than push them aside or call yourself names.

Speaker 1 (00:31:02) -  Then we can start to, you know, really rip out the the problems by the roots. And not that they don't ever come up again because another seed can plant and there comes that weed, but it's a lot less maintenance. It just feels you feel more calm on a day to day basis than when you are, you know, trimming the grass every week. I agree. Changes.

Speaker 2 (00:31:28) -  Yeah. Like I also think like when I did my training in Spain, one of the most important element was that how I look at the client influences the client's results. And so if I come from the beliefs that trauma cannot be healed and that the client can only develop coping skills, or that their life is messed up and they can just talk about it and nothing happens. This will influence a result the client will get. And so this is a bit like I think sometimes we need to be aware even some ideas in the field is you can only cope with trauma. You can never heal it. So like and these kind of I think these, these ideas are still out there and some clients are just also stuck because maybe they work for somebody who believes that they can never get better.

Speaker 2 (00:32:12) -  Like one of my counselors told me, I, I was such a complicated person, I would never have a healthy relationship. And she didn't know anything about me. She. I think she was like, it was really stigmatizing. And it took me, honestly five years to heal that. But, like, I felt crushed. But I think she kind of projected on me something which I wasn't even she hardly ever talked to me. So, like there was nothing we could work.

Speaker 1 (00:32:37) -  With dealing with it. Yeah. I think it's because, you know, the average therapist probably doesn't have the same tools to really help people work through and learn how to regulate and overcome. And really, because most of the successful people I know how a lot of trauma. So stuff that we can't be successful humans. No, it's just it might, you know, and we tend to have a lot of drive because we always had to pick ourselves up and survive. Right. So I, I totally agree with you.

Speaker 1 (00:33:05) -  I think you can heal from trauma, but I think that healing is a journey and it's peaks and valleys and we can't expect to never, like you said, be traumatized again in our life. It's just not it's not a reality.

Speaker 2 (00:33:17) -  No, it's unrealistic. But I also think recovery gives you the tools. No matter what happens to you, how can you navigate that from an empowered space? Yeah, like we can't avoid what happens to us. Like it will happen. And then the thing is how it can be navigated. And so I think like when we look from it, from resilience or post-traumatic growth perspective, like we have these tools within us. And I disagree with some of these views on trauma that, you know, people are forever broken when they have experienced it. No, we can be fully functional, healthy human beings.

Speaker 1 (00:33:52) -  Yeah, for sure. And it might take a minute for someone to get to just that, right, that that regulation and learn how to defend being in your body at first, I'm also going to say is really uncomfortable if you're someone that's lived in a chronic stress body that's chronically tight to actually stay in that body and really, like, sit with it and wait for that feeling to pass and learn how to breathe through.

Speaker 1 (00:34:17) -  And really, it's it can be a little overwhelming. So some people have to do that in shorter. Here's what they work up to. Like being able to sit with that for longer periods.

Speaker 2 (00:34:29) -  I always say incremental steps, like I work with some people who have chronic pain. So to some degree we really discuss. Is it useful to be in your party in this moment? Like, like we need to be aware that there are symptoms and conditions and it goes together. And so if parts don't want to be in the body because just too extremely painful to be in the body like this really like how can we navigate that.

Speaker 1 (00:34:53) -  Yeah. And that's that's entirely valid too. I was thinking of what you said, too, about, like, you know, when you're going to a talk therapist and sometimes they just they validate. Right. And for a trauma survivor, I think what was so. I'm like 8 to 12. I went through multiple different therapies. But they all treated me like, oh, poor baby, oh poor you.

Speaker 1 (00:35:15) -  And that kind of mindset just made me feel even more like hopeless and like nothing was ever going to help me. And it just made me sad. And then I had a therapist and she wasn't a like, super trauma informed therapist, but at least she was like, okay, like, let's take ownership of what you do have control over and you're really smart. So go to school and do this. And she gave me back some of my control and power. but with my staff, I'm very like, we're very big in our training on, you know, confronting clients on their issues and not over, empathizing with our clients. So I think that's part of the issue is therapist. When people aren't properly trained, they resonate a lot with what their clients say, because most of us got into this field for a reason and they want to validate it is no one validated them. But when we're only validating and we're not teaching tools, it's just it's just validating the fact that they're a victim and no one wants to feel like a victim.

Speaker 2 (00:36:15) -  Like in my own journey, I did a lot of healing with coaching because I found coaching far more empowering. Like my first therapist, I don't know, it felt to me like the impetus for me, the most horrible thing you can do because it felt so disempowering because I was sitting there and I'm like, okay, you think I'm doing for the rest of my life, so why do I even sit with you? So I found coaching and this is why, to some degree, I draw from some coaching modalities because I think in contrast to talk therapy, they give you tools, they give you something. And so yes, like tools are really important. And also the thing like where do you have empowerment and in the limitations you are in, how can you empower you in that. And so I think that given power back to clients is so important for trauma recovery because like it really gives them choices. So yeah I fully agree with that.

Speaker 1 (00:37:09) -  Yeah. And choices are super important, especially because most of us that are in childhood trauma recovery didn't have many choices.

Speaker 1 (00:37:18) -  and on top of that, you know that we're judged for some of the things that we had to do to survive those situations or how we responded in those situations. and I think that people don't take into account that, like, if sometimes there is no choice, like you can stand in a place of privilege and like, well, I would have done that, but not everyone has that object or the knowledge even of that option? Either the resources to connect them to to get to those options. I mean, I have some really, right wing family members who will argue with me that, like, you know, people just need to, like, pull themselves up by their bootstraps and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, not everyone can do that. What if you have you have no money of no car. You have no way to get to any of the places that you need to get food you have. No like. It's not that simple. And I think it's really easy for, people when they have experienced trauma, which is also why the first thing I said to you is like, I love that you have lived experience in our service because they don't.

Speaker 1 (00:38:22) -  It's just they don't have that lived experience of knowing what they might not know. And even if like, you know, I think as trauma kids, we tend to be more sensitive to, diverse groups and what they could be going through, because we know that people kind of had blinders on for our experience. So I think we tend to ask more questions and be more inquisitive before we pass judgment on people. And we tend to give them, like the benefit of the doubt, a little more than the general public.

Speaker 2 (00:38:53) -  I agree, and also, I think my own lived experience and also the healing it tells me it takes a lot of effort like and to some degree it is unfair because like we are not responsible for what happens to us. So in the end, the only choice, like the way to freedom is to take responsibility for it. But we weren't responsible for it when it happened to us. Yeah. So and I think this is a bit where there's a delicate balance when the narrative around healing can become victim blaming.

Speaker 2 (00:39:21) -  because I don't think that is fair and nobody deserves that. But on the other hand, the only path to freedom is taking responsibility for our own healing. But then if you just financially look how much it cost to hear, this is a privilege to do it. And and like, I don't know, in my own practice I integrate anti-racist and anti repressive practices just because of my own journey. I know a lot around privilege just because I'm non-binary. So how can I take responsibility in those areas where I have power and also in my business? How can I try to keep the services accessible? Because to some degree, sometimes I look at these pricing and I'm thinking, the only people who can afford this are people in very high position of power in the economy. And so the thing is really like I find it complicated and really finding this kind of thing, like how can we keep it accessible? And yes, I still need to run a business. So there are so many layers to that.

Speaker 1 (00:40:23) -  Yeah, I think that's what broke my heart when I became a business owner, because I, I jumped on every insurance panel ever and was like, oh, we're getting all these clients.

Speaker 1 (00:40:32) -  This is great. We're helping all these people. But it was not financially sustainable to take Medicaid, Medicare, like every insurance under the sun, and actually pay my people a living wage, right. Like it was either they were going to make peanuts and where we live is very expensive to live, and that's not going to be sustainable for them or their clients, right, because they're going to go get other jobs or, you know, we have to switch to self-pay. And that also allowed us to afford us to take these trainings that really can help our clients. So, yeah, that's that's been a journey we're navigating to. Our goal one day is to open up like a sister nonprofit. And for now, we at least have like an internship program where, we let people come in either pro bono or like very, very low fee so that they're getting some support. But it's, it is a balance.

Speaker 2 (00:41:23) -  It is complicated and like and there is sometimes a really inner conflicts associated with it.

Speaker 1 (00:41:30) -  Yeah. but I think that it they're doing things like those and like the podcast that you host, I think also provides a lot of knowledge to people so that they, they know where to look. Right. They might not be able to get that. It's always better to have that one on one with your own therapist and do your own healing, and have some of the guide you on that journey. Unfortunately, he's done. Not everyone has those resources. but trauma demystified enough for the trauma therapist. I think those podcasts like that give people kind of a starting point to know about, like where they can look to start trying to heal and make themselves feel better.

Speaker 2 (00:42:18) -  Also, I would say like what I try to do is also like, how can I give my clients tools and stuff like that they can use outside of sessions so that they don't need constant sessions. So it's really like the journey, and it depends on where people are at and what they need. But like the thing really is I think a lot of healing can be done outside of therapy.

Speaker 2 (00:42:37) -  This is I think.

Speaker 1 (00:42:38) -  That it should be done outside, right? Because it's like the world is then like where you go practice all the stuff we talked about in here, and that'll reinforce in your brain that you can do these things. If we're just talking about it and there's no action, you're never going to believe you can do it. Right. So it is really about, practicing outside of therapy. And it's funny, like, I feel like there are clients that don't want to. They just want to come in and be like, wave your magic wand and fix me. And it's like, sweetheart, we gotta we gotta do this outside. You gotta practice. You know, breathing when we're not stressed out. Like, I have so many clients that when they first came in, they're like, well, I practiced that panic attack thing once, and then I had a panic attack, and it it didn't work. And I'm like, well, you practice it once. Like you have to practice it multiple times so that when we're in that fight or flight, we can access it more quickly because there's more, connection wiring between those neurons to know, to do that, that action.

Speaker 1 (00:43:36) -  And it's going to come up more quickly for you if we practice. Yeah. and that's super, super important.

Speaker 2 (00:43:43) -  I don't know, I once I've forgotten the times, but the truth is, like I went to a somatic experiencing training training from Stacy Hines and she kind of said, like to do something under normal stress. I don't know, I think we need to repeat about 300 times and I could be completely off. But then to do something under high stress, it is more like a couple of thousand repetitions. So I try to give clients information like that. It takes time. If you do it ten times it may still not work under high stress. So be aware. It's really a daily practice and I think for me at least, recovery was a complete lifestyle change. And and in this way it doesn't end because I still apply it because it keeps me healthy. like things like yoga are helpful, meditation is helpful, parts work is helpful, and all of these kind of things people can do by themselves when they feel confident enough.

Speaker 2 (00:44:33) -  Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:44:34) -  And I think it's it's important for them to do it by themselves. Right. Because like we were talking about like, you talk to your parents, I talk to my parents. Like that part is so, important in that process of you checking in with you because that's, again, you repair it in yourself, not the therapist or parenting you, but it helps to build self confidence when we're doing this outside of the therapy room, and it makes it so that you can leave and go live your life, because I'm that's my goal as a therapist. I don't want to see people forever. I mean, if I say come back, that's great, and I'll be happy to see them again because I miss them. But I don't want to see them forever because I want them to feel better and not have to come see me every week or even another.

Speaker 2 (00:45:20) -  I agree, like, I don't know, sometimes times come back after three years and I see a completely changed person who has become far more confident, and we just have a different layer we work on.

Speaker 2 (00:45:30) -  But like, it's beautiful to see. And now I want to see my clients at least the longest time possible, because then they can do it on their own. So yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:45:41) -  And it feels so much more empowering when clients go out and do it on their own. Like I had a client who asked to come back to me, but I'm pregnant, not taking on new clients. But I was so proud of her because in her email it said PTA like she has an actual like PTA email. And her initial reason to come to therapy was her social anxiety about, interacting with, like, the other moms at the school and like how it was affecting her son and a lot of guilt around that. and like serious social anxiety. And she's been out of therapy for a couple of years, and we did work on this and there'd be. But as she's like out of the PTA and now you are all excited about overcoming your fears. I know the whole thing, you know, and that's really beautiful to see.

Speaker 1 (00:46:27) -  And she was really proud to tell me that because she grew that on her own. Like that wasn't anything that I had to do it, you know? It's just a beautiful, beautiful thing when clients can take what they learn and really, like, run with it and their lives and start to show themselves that they are capable and they are lovable and they are worthy and you know, they aren't good enough as they are. and I think that really does happen outside of the therapy room. I mean, you see.

Speaker 2 (00:46:55) -  I need to nurture them to grow. I give them tools like seeds, tools and the space. Maybe also, maybe the space to look at more difficult parts is hard to look at on their own, but in the end it then take it like I have a client who had financial difficulties and so they did a lot of their work on their own. And I think for a year we just had a monthly check in in a way that they sent me an email on the status, but they did so much work on their own And and so this is kind of the creativity we can create.

Speaker 2 (00:47:26) -  And yes, in the end the work happens outside of therapy. We give tools, plant ideas, maybe help with obstacles, but that's about it.

Speaker 1 (00:47:37) -  Well, that's all we can do. Well, and we provide that. I think for a lot of my clients, I provide that like safe person like that for a lot of my clients. that first, experience of like unconditional positive regard, like, I'm not mad at you if you don't do your homework. I'm not mad at you. If you mess up again, like, you know, you can get upset with me and I'm not gonna respond in a crazy way. You know, I think it's that practicing of, like, what a healthy relationship looks like is so, so important. Which is also why you have to have a therapist that should be or should be in therapy. Because if they're not healed, that therapeutic that that would be healthy.

Speaker 2 (00:48:19) -  So this is this is what I sometimes experience with supervisors. If I set a boundary and they don't respect it, I'm just like, oh, what's going on with you? Like, yes, I think therapeutic relationship needs to be healthy.

Speaker 2 (00:48:32) -  If it's not, it's not the right therapist, No matter what the tools are.

Speaker 1 (00:48:37) -  Yeah. Because, yeah, this is not going to feel good. And especially for trauma kids, if you don't have that rapport, if you don't have that trust. And trust is very, very hard to build with most of us, you're never going to get to the deeper stuff because you don't feel safe enough coming out and talking about it. It's like you don't trust your therapist. You can't talk about those deep, deep, deep issues that keep you up that no one knows about because you're afraid of being judged. So that's for me. Like the number one, no matter what modality, you just think, just make sure you trust in like your therapist, because that doesn't mean they're a bad therapist if you don't like them. But I've had therapists that just don't jive with me, like I had a therapist that handled it. Felt like she handled me with kid gloves as an adult, and I very much as an adult, like, felt like, no, I am a survivor.

Speaker 1 (00:49:29) -  I'm someone who overcomes things. I am not a victim. Do not look at you that way. And every session, she was an eMDR therapist. At the end of the session, she'd be like, all right, well, we're gonna resource more even if we didn't do eMDR, because I would cry and I needed my cry. I was like, no, crying It's like I'm releasing. I feel better, like I am good, I can I can go and leave the session and I actually feel good in my body right now. And she would be like, no, we have to do more resourcing. And she would keep me like a half hour extra. And I was like, the the fact that you're that concerned about me makes me like, feel uncomfortable because I'm telling you I'm fine and you don't seem to believe me. Which then would be like, uncomfortable for me to cry or anything like that because I was worried that she was going to. She was too worried. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (00:50:17) -  Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:50:18) -  It also sounds like there's a power imbalance, like, okay. For me, one important part of trauma healing is that the therapist can navigate power. Like, because if you say I'm okay and she is overpowering you and saying, no, you're not, you need to do more. There is a profound power imbalance. Like, I sometimes work with people who work on loss and I do eMDR. I know the steps to fully integrate it. But if a client says after, I don't know, 5 or 10 sessions, I've done enough, I don't need to do more. I respect that because they choose how integrated want to be. And even if they don't go to the so-called zero in eMDR like it is what they want. So it's not mine to say, oh, you're not here, you cannot do that.

Speaker 1 (00:51:02) -  Yeah. No, I 110% agree because it's just invalidating. Yeah, yeah. And most of us have felt invalidated. Yeah. So when you're a therapist it's also like, no, you can't trust your judgment.

Speaker 1 (00:51:15) -  I'm gonna make this decision for you. Like, I have to be really damaging to someone that you're doing work with because we, again, don't trust ourselves. We don't trust anyone, I guess. Natalie, if people want to, get your book or follow you, where can they find you? There.

Speaker 2 (00:51:35) -  If they can find me on Instagram on the bright horizon therapies, they can check out my website, Bright Horizon therapies.com. they can find the book on Amazon or an Amazon. Com. If they want to read it.

Speaker 1 (00:51:50) -  Okay. And what is the name of your book again?

Speaker 2 (00:51:53) -  a brave true story.

Speaker 1 (00:51:54) -  A brave true story. You had a, offer for the listeners as well, correct?

Speaker 2 (00:52:02) -  I didn't have a full offer. Like, if people want to check out my podcast from A demystified, I'm happy to listen to them. I don't. Well, I put it upload every five weeks just also because it is a process. I'm still very much into explaining trauma therapy. I hope over time I get more into tools and sharing more tools around it.

Speaker 2 (00:52:23) -  But first, I want to lay a foundation.

Speaker 1 (00:52:25) -  No, I think that's a beautiful resource for people because Natalie's podcast is more about, you know, understanding trauma. Like, I feel like you're teaching them like, it's almost like a module, step by step, like, here's the foundation, here's the next level. and it's a really, really beautiful thing for people who want to understand maybe why they're feeling or, why they're not healing in that way. And I, I, I listened to it and I was like, oh, this is like really, really nice and breaks it down, like beautifully for people to not feel like they're crazy anymore. Like, no, this is a normal response, right? Like this is normal. And I think when you had so many poor experiences with people who don't understand trauma or how to treat trauma, it can really feel like, you know, you're the broken one. And I think that Trauma Demystified is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful job of explaining, like the science and the the logic behind why you feel the way you do.

Speaker 1 (00:53:26) -  and I'm really excited for when you get to tools. I think that's going to be super, super helpful. But even the the basic knowledge is just really, really wonderful. thank you. Thank you for being on today, Natalie. I just want to wish our listeners a good week and let them know that they are good enough.