35. How Can Somatic Experiencing Help You Heal from Trauma?

In this episode of "Good Enough with the Trauma Therapist,"  Jamie Vollmoeller, interviews somatic experiencing practitioner Sarah Kleiner. Sarah discusses trauma resolution through the nervous system. She explains how trauma affects the body, signs of a deregulated nervous system, and techniques like movement, breathwork, and visualization to help individuals transition from hyperarousal (high stress) or hypoarousal (numbness) to a balanced state. The conversation covers the impact of parents' emotional states on children, the significance of addressing early childhood experiences, and the importance of self-care and recognizing personal needs to break generational patterns of stress and neglect.

Bullet Points: 

• Understanding somatic experiencing as a method for trauma resolution through the nervous system.
• The body's response to trauma and its effects on emotional and physical health.
• Signs of a deregulated nervous system include anxiety, chronic pain, and depression.
• Differentiating between hyperarousal (high stress) and hyperarousal (numbness) states.
• Techniques used in somatic experiencing include movement, breathwork, and visualization.
• The importance of co-regulation and support from practitioners during emotional processing.
• The concept of being "okay enough" in managing anxiety and emotional challenges.
• Recognizing and addressing early childhood experiences that shape the nervous system.
• The impact of parental emotional states on children and the dynamics of caregiving.
• The significance of self-care and expressing personal needs, particularly for women in a caregiving role

Check out Sarah at www.sarahkleiner.com 
and Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sarah.kleiner1

Get her worksheet that gives you an overview of things you may be experiencing on a day-to-day basis that can be linked to the nervous system, and what you can do with that understanding of where your body might be getting stuck.
 
https://www.sarahkleiner.com/nervoussystemgift

"Good Enough with the Trauma Therapist" is your companion on this transformative journey. Tune in for heart-to-heart conversations, expert interviews, and a sprinkle of humor, because, after all, you are good enough, and your journey to a fulfilling life starts here.

If you are looking for trauma-informed therapist:

New Yorkers visit www.liemdr.com

Missourians visit resilient-mo.com

Transcript

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:00:00  Welcome to Growing Up. I am your host Jamie Vollmoeller and today we are here with Sarah Kleiner. Sauer is a somatic experiencing practitioner who is known for deep nervous system nourishment that helps people to get out of fight or flight and into a place where they can feel confident, creative, grounded and be able to move forward with the things that excite them the most. Welcome. Sarah is so happy you're here. Hi. Yeah, happy to be here. So why don't we start with, can you just define for our listeners what is somatic experiencing? Yeah. So it's a version of trauma resolution.

Sarah Kleiner 00:00:37  Through the nervous system. And so it's a process where we're really working with the body first and understanding that our body has a response to everything that happens. And sometimes when something has been too much or too soon, That's the definition of trauma that I like to use of too much or too soon. Then our body might have gotten into a pattern where it didn't get to fully discharge or process or get stuck based on something that happened.

Sarah Kleiner 00:01:07  And so it's a process of really uncovering what might have happened, because sometimes we know we have conscious awareness of, I know x, y, z challenging thing happened. Or sometimes we just have symptoms that show up that are chronic pain, different illnesses, anxiety, lack of motivation, things like that. And it's a process of uncovering what is our body really experiencing and how do we get it out of that stuck place, out of that overwhelmed place, and back into something that feels like more flow and more like we're reacting in a way that feels good to the circumstances around us.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:01:48  That was beautifully thank you. That made me think, you know, really the only animals or that don't like, shake or do something after a traumatic event to release that. and why it's so important to have, like, body movement in, in that respect. almost as you were saying, like, like too much or too soon because they feel like everything is trauma. But my clients will often say like, oh, that it couldn't have been that so.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:02:23  Right. Like, and if we were just nervous noticing that our nervous systems are horribly deregulated. This might be something that can help. So what are some signs that your nervous system might be deregulated and you might need some of this, body based work?

Sarah Kleiner 00:02:42  Yeah, like I said, there can be the classic ones that people are most familiar with that are usually what's classified as feeling like we're in fight or flight. Those are the ones people know the most. It's like, oh, feeling really anxious, feeling overwhelmed really easily. You know, people always think of it as being like panic attacks, things like that. And that is one for sure. Category. but it can also be things like I said, the body pains can be a big one, especially if they're not medically diagnosed. Body pain. So I always joke with my clients that like, if you stub your toe, that's why your toe hurts. It's not your nervous system. But if you're like, oh, my left shoulder hurts all the time, but I've never had an injury to it, or I have a lot of pain in my foot and I don't know why.

Sarah Kleiner 00:03:29  Oregon some. There are links to chronic illnesses and the nervous system. So if it's like, oh yeah, I've been treated for an illness and it's not getting better and it feels like there's something more in there, and then there can also be the, essentially shut down signs of our nervous system that are people underestimate, which can show up feeling like depression, lack of motivation, brain fog, memory loss issues, things like that that people very rarely associate with the nervous system. On first glance, it takes some learning to know that, oh, those can also be a nervous system state. And I always say can because of course we can have depression for other reasons. So this is not a sweeping generalization, but if it's something that it hasn't been explored from that perspective, there can be some real power and being like, okay, let me at least see what might happen when I work with the nervous system or what might happen if I explore this work from that perspective of curiosity, of what might happen if I take these daily symptoms or experiences and see what my nervous system might have to say about it.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:04:41  Yeah, that that makes an awful, awful, awful lot of sense. so are there like dip depending on you recently talking about hypo or hyper arousal. Like how we individually, going to our trauma responses. it's also very interesting. I love that you highlighted that because I'm more of a hyper arousal. I'm chronic type muscles, high stress, hypervigilant all the time that I have people household that are like hypo right. So they get very like withdrawn don't want to be around. People are like being out. They are just numb. Just whereas I like are crazy. Solve everything. They're like crisis. I'm going to stick my head in the sixth sense.

Sarah Kleiner 00:05:29  Yeah.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:05:30  are there different like, approaches that you're going to use based on where our nervous system ends, whether we're, you know, up here too much or maybe two down here.

Sarah Kleiner 00:05:40  Yeah, there absolutely are different tools for either side because it's essentially where a nervous system gets stuffed. It depends on what our nervous system needs to get out of it.

Sarah Kleiner 00:05:51  So sometimes if we're in a that more like numbed out feeling like we just want to hide from everything, feeling like it's just that withdrawn state. We need to get a little bit more healthy activation in the system, which people can cringe when I say that. So I always say it with a grain of salt because I know the last thing that sounds fun when you're like, I'm overwhelmed and I'm numbed out in, let's get some activation in there. But there is a version. Excitement is a form of healthy activation or passion or joy or things like that. So I use that word from a very broad sense, but we might need to get some more healthy activation in there so that the system can feel that strength or feel that empowerment at work when not with clients a lot. That's like the opposite of the numb or feeling overwhelmed might be like, yeah, I need to feel a little bit strong, or I need to feel capable of saying no to things, or I need to feel like it's okay to and again, fight back.

Sarah Kleiner 00:06:50  But in a smaller sense, we don't need to be physically fighting per se, but have that capacity in my body. That's like, yeah, I can get a little angry about it, or I can say no to that. We might need to bring some of that energy into the system versus one that is more on that hyper stress tension. I always joke with like the type where it's like we're going to push it down and run through fire. And one of my clients said, like, and if it burn me up, I don't care. I'm just getting to the finish line. Like, if we have those types of personalities we need to understand, like, what are those uncomfortable emotions? What are those things that are making it? So we just need to push through? And how do we help the body feel safe to settle down, not just tell it. It has to not just schedule relaxed time, but there are specific tools of like, how do we help discharge that energy so the body feels safe settling a bit.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:07:42  Yeah. And I think that's that's super, super important is I know for me when people be like, oh, like take a break. It's not that I never try to relax, right? Like I schedule and like relax. And then my brain's like, he should be doing this and you should be doing this. And like, the anxiety starts coming in and it's like, yeah, this is less relaxing than if I just did a task right. And the whole thing is I feel unproductive, right? Or I feel which over time I've gotten better with, and I do a lot of like breathwork and meditation to help me like center when my nervous system is really, dysregulated because it's also not healthy to just keep running like that. but how like is are there any quick tips that you would have for someone that's like in that situation, like, oh, I plan to relax today, and now all I can do is think about the million things I to do less. So my body is still like super tense.

Sarah Kleiner 00:08:44  Yeah. And I think a big first step is we think of the only version of relaxation, of being like sitting still where it's like I'm laying on the couch or I'm sitting in meditation or I'm. And it interesting that our brains have, for most people, correlated relaxation with stillness, when in reality, if a body is in that productive state. You said it so well that it's so common that it's like I'm just too busy for this, or there's too much going on, or it just eat me. If I don't, we might need some movement first to be our doorway into relaxation. If you think about it. And this is still going to be in general, there's obviously more specifics, but when I'm with someone and we're working with their specific nervous system that we go into, but it might be like, wow, if I think of like a slower movement of like what my body would want to do if it started to relax and I can see leaves in the wind outside. So my example might be biased, but that can be a good one.

Sarah Kleiner 00:09:41  That's like, yeah, if it's like a leaf, this is like slowly blowing in the wind. Or if it's like, I love the image of kelp in water. It's one of my favorites of just that slow moving, like kelp in the ocean. Like what happens if I bring that in and let my body have some slow movement? So it's so getting to feel that it's moving. It's still getting to feel some of that energy. And we can even take that energy that's like where in the body wants to get it done, where in the body wants to go do things, where feels at anxiety. And let's introduce some slow movement to that part. And then what happens? And again, it might physically still be movement for most of the time we're relaxing, but we can notice, oh, does that calm the body down a little bit? Does that bring it into this place where like, yeah, if I sway back and forth or if I move my arms or if I rotate my wrists really slowly, or if I even hold that image of like, I'm going to move like the leaf blowing in the wind, what does that do to shift it? How does that start to shift things? And notice from there? Again, it may not go all the way away, but oh yeah.

Sarah Kleiner 00:10:49  Does it feel like I start to take a slightly deeper breath, or does it feel like it's a little less urgent to go do all those things? Or do I feel like maybe I couldn't sit down for a minute before I do them? So it's all in curiosity. But sometimes we need to start from that place of meeting the nervous system where it's at and noticing what it's actually asking for, instead of just being like, hey, it's my half hour of sit down time, we're going to lie on the couch and just force ourselves and be here. And sometimes that doesn't even feel relaxing at all. Hey.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:11:22  That makes perfect sense, because on the days that. So now I have to I because I'm pregnant, my body hurts. My husband's always like, just sit and relax. But like previous to this, one of the things I would do is go for hikes in the woods and by the ocean. I'm like, I find nature very calming and regulating for me. But now I'm being told like, well, no, that's gonna you can't go on and you're going to be in more pain.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:11:50  And that makes a lot of sense to why I'm struggling with that, because it doesn't feel sitting in in rest mode, doesn't ever really feel great for me. I'm an active. I was I was, I had sensory processing in Disorder of the head. So I've always been, like, sensory seeking. So, like, sitting in silence is like, this ain't doing it for me. You can't, can't handle that.

Sarah Kleiner 00:12:17  Yeah. And most bodies that have that like kind of more go like go mode, anxious energy apart, there needs to be some discharge of that energy before the body is ready to settle. And that can be the big difference in the process that again, some people it works for to just be like, I'm just going to sit down and go into meditation or lay on the ground. But if it's like, oh, it's hard for me to stop moving or it's hard for me to sit still, we need to facilitate some sort of way for that energy to move out of the body before it's ready to settle.

Sarah Kleiner 00:12:49  And that process again sometimes can be really simple. Sometimes it's like, oh yeah, I do a little movement and then I feel settled. But of course sometimes we have deeper, more complex things going on in the nervous system that make it so it doesn't quite feel that way, or it still feels a little wired, or we settle for a little bit and then it's like, oh, and now I'm thinking of my grocery list. They're like, oh, now I feel like I have to get up and go move. So it's okay if those things happen. That kind of like, is that the work that then working one on one with your nervous system, we can get more curious about and get like, okay, what what patterns are happening there?

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:13:26  Yeah, yeah. The silence is, for a lot of us, Taipei's like that's been all of our our stuff comes up. and for our listeners on this show, most of us are people pleasers with the core beliefs that we're not good enough.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:13:42  Right. So being sitting with, with anything is, is usually not something we do. We focus on other people and other people's problems so we don't have to deal with this stuff. not that we're aspiring to be that way, guys, but it's just kind of a that's, that's been my thing is one that we were taught growing up. so I think that makes a lot of sense for us because that it's it's always been so uncomfortable for me to just like the interest because that's when my, my brain starts going. Most of us with anxiety, the anxiety was at night. Why is that? Because we're still right. So what are you like? What is? Can you explain some of the techniques that you're using with clients? Is it like yoga because I'm like, I'm loving everything about how it helps us regulate. I agree with that. I read research that also supports that, right? Which is why we also do body based service. Well, but with somatic experiencing, is it like I'm going to do some yoga with you or are we doing like dance movement therapy? Like, help me visualize what a session with Sarah would look like.

Sarah Kleiner 00:14:55  Yeah, and there's practitioners who have all different backgrounds. You can do somatic experiencing. So I am not a yoga teacher or the dance teacher. There are people, beautiful humans out there who there is that method. but for my work, it's it is a little bit of a combination of we have some types of breathwork, we have some types of smaller movement, but a lot of it is we're really tracking the body at the really in depth tracking. So some of it is you're telling me the story of like, okay, what uncomfortable moment you want to change, what do you want. What's happening that you don't like. And then we're tracking the nervous system where me as a practitioner, I'm watching for. Oh, what are my signs that the nervous system is having a response as you describe that? Because the beautiful thing and challenging thing about our nervous system is it doesn't do time well. So when we talk about something that was challenging, our nervous system usually will go into at least a percentage or two of that state.

Sarah Kleiner 00:15:53  So it may not be the full blown. Of course, a more full blown is what we think of as like flashbacks or think of like that. But even if we're not having that big of a response, if we talk about and you can even test it in your own body right now, it's like, oh, if you think of something that made you uncomfortable, or if like, oh, I had to go have this uncomfortable, uncomfortable conversation with something and you track your body, there's a little bit of a response there that's like, oh, my chest might get a little tighter, or I might feel a little bit more nervous. So we have that response that happens even with memory, and we can work with that in session to be like, okay, this is a person, a version of what happens in the full blown scenario. And then we can use, like I said, different customized techniques around movement, around breath, around visualization that help move through that cycle for the nervous system in a different way than it normally does.

Sarah Kleiner 00:16:48  So instead of it being like, oh yeah, I get overwhelmed when I have to have a direct conversation and my chest feels sight and they I feel anxious and I just can't do it and I have to walk away. I just can't have it. I keep my mouth shut and I run. That might be someone's normal pattern that shows up, but then in session we get to slow it down, which I know sounds unappealing sometimes when we're talking about an uncomfortable sensation, but we get to slow it down a little bit and be like, okay, how do we take this step by step and give the nervous system a new path and discharge some of that energy that's usually building really quickly in a daily scenario and actually interrupt it and be like, okay, let's let's hang out here and discharge some of that. Let's do some movement, let's use some visualizations, let's use some sounds that actually help it regulate that moment a little bit. And then we keep going. And so it's less about always being one to walk and it's more about that in depth tracking to understand how the nervous system may need assistance essentially breaking its normal pattern.

Sarah Kleiner 00:17:54  But because all of us, when we get stressed, when we get overwhelmed, we have survival patterns that we will likely default to unless we slow down with consciousness. And so it's helping our body learn in a more comfortable setting, because session is usually more comfortable than when we're in a fight with someone or when we're trying to have a direct conversation. It's helping us slow that down, interrupt that, and build some new patterns that then become more instinctual and help the nervous system shift that pattern in those other places.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:18:27  Yeah. Love that. It reminds me of that. A lot of I'll be doing and ya, there's a we do resource thing, but even like before and after reintroduce a resource, what we're always focus on with them is like, where do you feel that? And bought on your body and concentrating on that feeling in your body and like doing the the resource. But it usually is involving like meditation and breath and all of that and feeling the change in your body, which I think for us, also makes us feel more in control by the end of it.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:19:00  So I will say, as a person with a normal like my nervous system, my whole life has been hyper arousal. I am always well out of my window of tolerance. I think my window of tolerance is just much larger than the general population. but as one of those people, it was uncomfortable to sit in my body with like, severe tossed height because. Right, like, it can feel like a panic attack. And sometimes when we start concentrating on it, it doesn't get better, really gets worse, because you're actually giving it the intention of instead of craving for all of that time. but once you make it through, it almost feels like you feel accomplished, because I think for a lot of, at least my clients, they haven't had a feeling that they haven't had to run for them. Right? Like, it's almost like you conquer it, and it's not as scary because you're like, oh, I can use these tools when I'm feeling myself and hyper arousal or hypo arousal. And I know now what brings me back up and conceal the shift in the tension in my body.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:20:15  And that just makes us feel so much more in control of our own destiny. And it actually makes us more in control of our destiny, because we have access to our logical brains now and can make better choices.

Sarah Kleiner 00:20:28  Yeah, and building that capacity too. I always talk with my clients about it is there's something really potent when we're in an uncomfortable moment and it's usually a familiar one because it's usually like, oh, I've had this emotion before and had this sensation before, but I don't love it. Or it's usually too much when we can have a different set of support. And this is one of the really beautiful things about co regulation with a practitioner in a session is it's like there is someone here who's got me. There's someone here who's holding space for me. I'm not alone in this challenging moment. For a lot of people are most what registers is the most traumatic moment. A lot of times is a moment we either were alone or felt alone because we felt misunderstood or felt like no one was connecting or caring for us.

Sarah Kleiner 00:21:16  There's a big theme for most nervous systems that being alone in that moment is a really challenging part. And so when we can have a co regulated practitioner who's like, I'm here and I've got you and I'm holding you in all of my energies on you and we're in something unpleasant, but we're helping it feel okay enough. I use that term 80,000 times. All my clients always like laughing because I'm like, we're okay enough here. Like, it means it's not great. I might hear it. It's not our favorite. We don't want to hang out here forever, but we're okay enough. We can sense the body. You can sense my energy, my support. We're okay enough. That can really rewire something to feel like, yeah, I'm anxious, but I've been okay enough when I had this sensation. I have memories, I have conscious memories of being in session and feeling okay enough in that place, or I feel really sad, but I'm okay enough here. That can really rewire something to hold our capacity for it when we have that conscious memory of being okay enough there, versus when we oftentimes before that, we only have memories of it being too much or too soon or overwhelming.

Sarah Kleiner 00:22:23  And so our of course, our body doesn't feel safe there when it's like, yeah, I've really often been so anxious that it was a panic attack or I've really often been so anxious that I like, couldn't I couldn't function or I couldn't think straight or I couldn't sit still or I couldn't sleep. Of course, it's going to feel overwhelming when that sensation shows up again, because that's the memory we have. And so we're working with some pretty powerful rewiring when we track the senses of like, oh yeah, I'm anxious, but I'm okay enough, and I have tools to help my body process this. And I have support like I maybe didn't when it first happened. That can do a lot for helping our nervous system then not have to protect us as much. There's such a big part of us that is trying to protect us, keep us safe from the experience, keep us safe from the emotions. And a lot of the symptoms we don't like can come from that protection mechanism versus when those walls come down and it's like, yeah, I'm angry or I'm anxious or I'm sad, but I'm okay enough.

Sarah Kleiner 00:23:24  A lot of symptoms may drop from even that shift alone.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:23:28  Yeah, that that was really beautifully said. And just it makes me think of how when we are in these like states that that don't feel well and we. I'm sorry. I just had a horrible pregnancy brain moment. Now I lost my health train of thought, but it's fun. They're gonna edit that out. God, what was I going to say? You were talking about our.

Sarah Kleiner 00:23:59  Capacity building and. Okay, enough. And, having regulation.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:24:06  So. Yeah, it makes me think of expanding our window of tolerance, right? Because when we experience trauma, there's that part of our brain that is, you know, flashing alert zone, which is why our nervous system is now responding in this like, and if it's a strong enough like chronic stress response, as soon as we start to feel that chest tightness, we just like that pocket in a way. We're not going to work on this right now. and, and scurry somewhere else, right? But then we're we're not living in the present moment.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:24:40  We're not paying attention to why our body feels like we're on high alert. Right? Like and I, for a lot of my clients, it's like, they're like, how do I keep being in these same patterns? And it's like, because you keep ignoring yourself. Like your body is telling you, this doesn't feel good. Your body is telling you something is off here, and you keep doubting your own ability to judge your surroundings when actually you're pretty good at that. You got lots of alarm bells. We just gotta learn to sit with them so that we can stay in that moment long enough to, like, have a rational thought about it, to process, and make a different decision. Otherwise you stay and those automated responses.

Sarah Kleiner 00:25:29  Yeah. And a lot of people either don't know or forget that our body response comes first and then our brain interprets it. We are wired that way. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, it doesn't matter how much you know, you cannot beat it. I always joke about that to my over thinkers that I'm like, you will not ever be able to outsmart this part of your brain, that this sensation is first and then our brain interprets it.

Sarah Kleiner 00:25:52  And so that means that our nervous system is having a response without us know without we will justify it. We'll come up with a reason, but it may or may not even be the right reason. It may not even be the accurate reason. We will just come up with something based on what's around. And so because of that, that's also why incorporating the body movement and knowing how to track your own nervous system, knowing how to listen to it and that way is so powerful because again, if we wait for our brain to say like, oh, I'm anxious because that person was speaking loudly and that makes me uncomfortable, we can work with that from the cognitive space and there will be some benefit, but there's still going to be that like, what's that sensation first? And was it because of that or did so often when we work with the body, it's like, oh, it actually might have started earlier in the day, or when we walk down the street or when something helped happen. So we learn how to track it, and it also takes away some of the self-judgment that can come with it, because so often to especially if there's been anxiety, people have been told or told tell themselves like, oh, you quote unquote shouldn't be worried about it or it's not that big of a deal or get over it.

Sarah Kleiner 00:27:02  And like anyone who's had anxiety is like, yep. And it's really so you start to tell yourself that too. Sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, I'm overreacting or I shouldn't worry about this, or why is this such a big deal for me? And it becomes a judgment thing. But when we work with the body, it's just sensation based. It's just facts. It's like, okay, well, my body am I? There's some tightness in my chest where my feet feel a little fidgety or whatever it is, and we learn to work in a more it's just a more factual place. I mean, that's always really what it is. There's no good or bad, right or wrong. It just is what's there. And that can also be a really important step of helping ourselves go deeper in the process. Because if we get stuck in that loop, that's like, well, I'm anxious and I shouldn't be, and here we are again. And then we get we get in that cycle of thinking about it and beating ourselves up and analyzing it when we have it, then process that core first reaction, which was like, I was scared by this or this freaked me out, or this worried me.

Sarah Kleiner 00:28:06  And so it can take us to a really new place, and then it can really help loosen the grip of that otherwise kind of harmful and harsh voice that a lot of people have on their head.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:28:18  Yeah. I think for me, I do some like, parts work be called like, egocentric with my clients. and I find that a lot of different parts of self tend to be connected to different body sensations. Right. So through my past, it's always been really helpful to kind of know what those emotions, body sensations and like theme triggers tend to be that are triggering those parts of self. Because when the body is saying something, it's a part of you that wants to speak that has something to say. And so this made me think of a close friend of mine who, she was very, very upset. Another friend called me was like, I don't understand why she's so upset. This person just, like, made a comment that they were so wonderful. Well, the person they're talking about has a significant history of abuse.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:29:18  they've been loved, bombed and, like, sucked in by narcissists multiple times. So even when someone is genuinely like, oh my God, you're my idol, like you're amazing. I wish I could live your life like I'm gonna live through you. And like says all these positive things, their threat system is on super high alert because that's how all of these horrible, monstrous relationships started. So yeah, that doesn't mean that person that said all that stuff is a necessarily a narcissist or a bad person. which then by finding ways to learn to regulate their nervous system and be like, okay, this is a warning sign, I'm gonna learn to set my boundaries early with this one so I don't make the same mistakes. But we don't need to have this, like, such a strong response that then everyone around us also looks at us like we're crazy because they're like, that isn't normal. And it's like, but it's normal for your lived experience if it's coming up for you. What I find with most of my clients, there is something in your lived experience that has alarm bells going off in your head, and it might not fit the puzzle pieces perfectly, but you've got to bring the rest of your consciousness up to where you are now, the resources you have now, and like what you've accomplished now, versus maybe when you were a child that had very little control and very little options, and running was the only way that you could get through it, or yelling or fighting or what have you.

Sarah Kleiner 00:30:51  Yeah, absolutely. It's like there's that part that needs compassion first a lot of time because it makes sense. Like you said, I always tell my clients what things are like, why is this coming up? Or this is weird, I'm thinking about this. I'm like, I promise it makes sense somewhere. And sometimes I know and sometimes even I don't know. But it does. Like there's a reason and usually it comes out over time. And then, yeah, like you said, is we then have the resources to slow that down. So it's not going from 0 to 60 and one second. That's where we can have that discharge of that energy, that changing of that pattern. And then yeah, choice comes back. That's like okay, once I'm regulated, we can actually assess things more accurately. There's so many studies out there that show, you know, the face of studies that show we would if with the same set of faces, if someone's activated, they'll identify more as a threat than if someone's regulated and they're nervous system.

Sarah Kleiner 00:31:46  And so we literally just aren't. We're going to see more things as threatening. We aren't as good at accurately assessing things when we're heightened. And so just to be like, okay, how can I have compassion for why I'm here and for how what my body is feeling, but also interrupt it before I make choices in the external world? Ideally, sometimes we don't have that luxury, but ideally, so that we can be more, more in tune with what's really happening and be more able to have all the choices on the table. We may not pick them all is what I always say that like we may not always we may not want to fight. We may not want to run away. We may not want to talk it out, but we want to feel like they're all options that are on the table in any circumstance.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:32:29  Yeah, for sure. Because when we have options, then we don't feel as scared. Yeah.

Sarah Kleiner 00:32:36  Absolutely.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:32:38  And we and we can actually regulate ourselves. I think that that for me is, is a really big part of trauma recovery is like and being able for me to take on more responsibility for like how I felt in that moment, because they think when you've been in chronic stress mode, you have like CC'd.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:33:05  It's really easy to feel like your life is Murphy's Law, especially if you're someone that winds up with like autoimmune disease and chronic pain issues. Like it really starts to feel like, why the heck does everything happened to me? which can make us feel like so lost and hopeless and bringing it back to our bodies. And what we do have control over. Right. Like, you can, bring your nervous system back down. You can bring your heart right back down. You can, like, rationalize with yourself that in this moment right now, you are safe. And that might not mean that you are safe in every moment of your day, because there are plenty of people walking around that don't live in safe circumstances. They can't get out of those circumstances right now. But even just to be able to take like that time where the unsafe, like the things that are making it unsafe are not present at the moment to just recognize in this moment I am safe and let your body calm down can be really helpful.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:34:04  And just like a reset for your day, instead of just operating on, you know, walking on eggshells mode all the time.

Sarah Kleiner 00:34:11  Yeah. And it's a big conversation I have with a lot of my clients is a lot of them resonate with wanting to feel and have this sensation of having choice, even in situations where maybe not all choices are on the table. Because, like you said, it's incredibly important to recognize that regulation sometimes has to happen within challenging circumstances. I think too often when we think of nervous system regulation, people are like, yeah, great, I'll go to the beach and I'll feel great and regulate and call. It's like cool that sometimes that's an option and sometimes that actually isn't or that wouldn't do it. Frankly, sometimes that wouldn't be enough. But also like sometimes we do the things that are stressful or hard or like chronic pain or it's ongoing or our circumstances, you know, at a job that you do need to work at or with people around who are going to be around and may or may not choose to change.

Sarah Kleiner 00:35:03  So we have to understand how do we bring choice back when it not every choice is on the table and when? Maybe the circumstances, unfortunately are not changeable, at least in the near term future. So how? There is still ways that we can create those what seem like small choices, but can bring a really important felt sense of choice into the body and that we can actually find. People are usually shocked how much freedom and sensation we can get to from those places that can still bring that regulation in while acknowledging like, yeah, so might be really stressful, what's happening or really heartbreaking what's happening? Or really, you might be really angry. We don't have to bypass any of those, but we can still find ways that both can exist, that we can both express some of that sadness, some of that anger, some of that fear, and also be like, okay, and can I find some choice that allows for some regulation? Can I see where I do have some options, even if they're smaller than I like, even if they're not the ideal one that the brain goes to first.

Sarah Kleiner 00:36:11  But then watching how that can impact the nervous system can be really empowering and really needed in those moments where, like I said, sometimes their life happens, challenging situations. And this work isn't just about working with it. When we have every option on the table or when our body has every choice available, it can be working within those parameters well.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:36:32  And I think that's a really, really smart to highlight because as you said earlier, when we're in this like hyper or hyper arousal state, it is much harder for us to make decisions to see the whole picture, to really like, analyze what our what our options even are. And that keeps us in that, that default pattern. So just allowing allowing for that to give you an expanded window of tolerance that you can look at things rationally, like if we're not doing this kind of work and trying to regulate ourselves and find moments of sanity amidst all the cats, it's gonna just perpetuate that, that cycle for so much longer. and what I usually see happening in like, it's usually the woman I work with that, I think mostly of like the DV situations that we've worked with where they know it's bad, they want to get out.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:37:33  But, you know, there are financial factors, you know, the children involved like all of that. And that takes some planning and strategy, especially if the person that you're with has way more resources, money and has is a really great talker and you're good to the person. And so, I think for those people, though, those women that do come and seek help and how to regulate and process everything that's happening to them while they're experiencing all of that, tend to get out sooner and in safer ways than a woman who, you know, aren't doing that kind of like they they know that they're on hyper arousal, but they're like, I don't have a time. I'm just in survival mode. And that's all valid, right? It's valid to feel like we don't know. It's fine. But my challenge is always like, we gotta we gotta make the time because you're spending so much more of your life in this crazy situation and you're so much more likely to leave because it's a really like the they usually when the cops are called or someone's horribly injured, you know, like the situations tend to escalate before they can separate.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:38:46  And for honestly, most of them it's because CPS got involved and now is like, well, this is a really bad incident. So you could either leave with your kids or were taking a kids and then they leave, but they have nothing prepared and they are so still like wired and afraid of this other human that they're still not making decisions even though the threat is no longer around them. 24 seven yeah, and.

Sarah Kleiner 00:39:11  It's just that there's so many examples. And in terms of too with it can even be things career focused. I've worked with a lot of people who are entrepreneurs or want to be or have dreams and not weigh and were like, oh, works really stressful, but like being like, oh, that takes up all the time and there's no energy to be creative or dream or it goes to the extremes for people like, I have to quit my job to go regulate it and I have to leave. And sometimes that can be true. But then there's also like, but what if we find that space where we can regulate here so that there is more capacity to be creative, there is more capacity to dream and to, work towards what you want.

Sarah Kleiner 00:39:51  And we have we see what's really happening in that scenario. And again, as we work through it in the nervous system. Sure. Sometimes it is like I have to quit. This is a really toxic job environment, but more often it's like, okay, this makes it feel more tolerable so that there's some spaciousness around it and there's more choices. It's still always a choice to quit, and it might also be a choice to do, like I said, bring creative creativity in in different ways. So it really is. There's a huge spectrum of examples to where it can just open up a lot of possibility. And really, like you said, set people up a lot better for the next step, whatever that's meant to be, because there's a capacity there's the yeah, ability to have choice in there that can be so empowering.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:40:36  Yeah. for me, I know to one of the big things we talk about on this show is like intergenerational trauma. And where I got really into more, like, body based work is having a kid that was a very high needs baby that like, oh.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:40:53  He was he.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:40:54  Was touched out. My kid would cry anytime you put him down like it was like you wore on 24 seven. But that also meant that my nervous system needed to be super regulated. Because what baby is, they pick up on your internal regulation. So if you're stressed and anxious babies, don't be stressed, anxious, not going to be screaming kettles. so even with like just new being a new parent in general, especially because I think for so many of us that become parents, that's what all of our stuff from childhood is like, oh yeah, something wasn't done right with me. Like it just brings all of it up for it. And if we aren't aware of the fact that we're triggered or responding in that way, like then we're continuing those patterns that we know are unhealthy for us, like screaming at our kids or making veiled threats or, you know, whatever it may be, that's also going to lead them to wind up with horribly regulated their resistance as they grow up into it.

Sarah Kleiner 00:41:59  Yeah, and that's the cool thing, too, about body based work is there can be things that are prenatal, perinatal, early childhood that we don't have conscious memories of that shape So much of what our nervous system is like. You mentioned where it can be a was there a parent who didn't have wasn't very well regulated that may not have shown up as anything even remotely abusive. It may just be that there's dysregulation that then from an early age impact people and then there is no memory. So this is really common to with people I work with where it's just like, oh yeah, I've always been this way or it's always been here. Sometimes that can be a sign of that. There was something pre or perinatal and it's hard because you can't there's no conscious memory you're working with. There's you're not saying like oh I remember when x, y z happened, just like a sentence that showed that that's like it can show up as existential dread or deep seated fears and things or really deep self-worth issues where it's like really not feeling good enough or really having a hard time being seen and not told.

Sarah Kleiner 00:43:05  You can usually justify it with some small things, but it may not feel like it hits the depth of what you feel, where it's like, wow, I feel so worried that we're in. The other shoe is going to drop at a deep level that doesn't even feel explained sometimes by the examples that are there, and that can be that early childhood prepare natal, even generational stuff. And so you kind of have to work with the body to get to that because you can't. Like I said, the conversation would be pretty short talking through it or like, I don't know, I just feel this way, this is what I got for you. And so it's a really cool thing to work with the body and be able to help it process some of that and help it express some of that and not need the words or story from it. And so I think that's also a huge part that, the body based work can address as well. But sometimes, again, we don't think about until we need it.

Sarah Kleiner 00:43:56  I was shocked when I went through my training of just like, wow, how much even my system needed it and benefited from it when I hadn't necessarily consciously ever thought of that as something that had to be worked with.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:44:09  Yeah, and I think for a lot of people that that, that I work with, they're always like my parents think they did the best that they could write. And a lot of the times they'll dismiss how they were treated as kids or some of the things that might have been problematic to their own system regulation, because they know that their parents didn't mean to hurt them, like when you're talking about, perinatal or prenatal, right? Like there's only moms that are that get postpartum and that's well beyond the mom's control. but there are studies that show if you have postpartum like, it's significantly it affects that attachment with an infant. And attachment is so crucial to just the development of who we are at our core. Right? So if we don't have that unconditional positive regard for a mother, and that doesn't mean your mother didn't love you, she might have just been in a horrible depression.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:45:03  So the first, especially like I feel like with us or with with my generation, like my mom, they I don't feel like they screened as much in the 80s and 90s or 60s and 70s right as they do now. Like now, it's like every visit I go to the OB. They're are you struggling with depression? Like they they always ask her? But I don't think it was as well known then. And I think that there was a lot more shame and stigma around seeking mental health treatments. You're talking about women that maybe we're in these days for much longer periods, and that maybe did not get the consistent attention it needed, not because it was out, but because the parent wasn't truly capable of providing that level of Co regulation, which is what a kid only his babies need Co regulation. The whole self-soothe myth drives me nuts. Newborn babies cannot sell to people. Give it give it some time.

Sarah Kleiner 00:46:02  Yeah. And it's just such an important I always talk about this with plants to the others like the we can hold both bubbles.

Sarah Kleiner 00:46:08  We can still have that deep love bubble that caregivers and parents. Yeah. We're not in any blame. There's that deep love. And we can still focus on your own bodies experiences. And that doesn't bring anything into the it doesn't touch the love bubble. It's still there. It's but it's still is a really important invalid part to be able to notice and track and hold both both parts as like that. Because because otherwise again not part that is so empathetic and compassionate and so important. That's like I get why they did it or they're doing their best or I understand that's a really beneficial part, but when it gets the it's when it's the only one allowed to talk, it can sometimes steamroll the part that's like, oh yeah, but it still might have hurt, or you still might have felt lonely or sad or anxious or have these experiences. And so there is space for both to exist. And it's really freeing when we can hold that is like, no, not there's no percentage of blame about it.

Sarah Kleiner 00:47:06  It's just being able to own and acknowledge your whole experience, just like any other individual gets the opportunity to own and acknowledge their own entire experience. So we're just making sure you yourself have that same gift to yourself.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:47:24  Yeah. That's so beautiful. And and the blame. The blame piece is really, really important because especially as children like, where we know it's not safe, even if our parents were, like, horribly abusive. Right. It's not safe for us to think they're defective. Something's wrong with them because they're the people that are supposed to protect us. So children often wind up blaming themselves, and some they use defective of me, and they wind up with core beliefs that are. I'm not good enough. I'm broken. I'm a lovable, you know, too much or never enough type say, And I think that holding space for both, like, allows them to chill, not blame their parents who they feel like did the best they could in their given their life situations and simultaneously let go of the blame of the self.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:48:25  Thankfully, that's always that little piece that's like, but it hurt. But this isn't on me. Stop blaming me. Let's see.

Sarah Kleiner 00:48:31  Yeah, and it's a huge one because people don't usually realize those thoughts can come from that early childhood preparing needle, experiences. And so it's such a huge part to even have that acknowledgement. It's like, yeah, one of my, faculty members would always quote that, like, it is like having unsafe connection or not feeling safe and attached to a caregiver is a version of as traumatic as something that's life or death. Because in a way it is life or death. They are caregivers. When we're really little, we can't beat ourselves. We can't walk, we can't find shelter. So our core needs are provided by our caregiver for our early life. So not feeling safely connected means we're not feeling safely connected to our core needs. And I think too often we underplay how challenging that can be or what impact that can have on the nervous system where people are like, well, that I had a shelter I had, they weren't abusive, I didn't, I had food.

Sarah Kleiner 00:49:31  But again, for our system, that attachment there is so core, it feels as intense as life or death situations. And we want to give that some credit because again, otherwise we bypass our own experience too much where it's like, well, I don't know why I feel so down on myself or so self-critical or so overwhelmed, and we just want to push past it, when in reality it can be some of that that needs to be worked with. Those early childhood experiences that are really ingrained in the nervous system.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:50:03  Are is so angry and for like, not good enough people out there that that chronically have felt that way. Right. One of the only times their lives where they felt good enough is when they got that external validation from their parents, right? So it makes them even more likely to just keep neglecting their needs, like you were saying, and neglecting themselves and turning away from what they need and they want, even in adulthood. Like, I work with so many moms that are just burnt out because they do everything they, they they work and they take care of the kids.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:50:36  And there are all the activities in the household stuff, and if they ask for anything, they feel like they're complete and total failures as women. And it's like, no, these are really like, no one can manage this. You're not superwoman like your needs matter and you're going crazy because you legitimately have, you know, 10 to 12 hours of every day blocked out with things that you have to do for other people. Like. That's insane. Yeah. And when we don't, you know, go back and, work with our body responses and that, that just trauma is stored in our bodies, we stay in that. And even when there's no threats at adulthood, we're running around like chickens with our heads cut off. And then we're also really teaching our children, right? Like, that's one of the things now that I'm having a girl that I just keep being like, oh, I gotta work on this because my boys don't pick up on it. But I feel like it's not the same degree as a as a daughter would with a mother in a class herself.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:51:39  Right. Like I could tell her, take care of yourself all the time. But if she sees mom do for everyone and never take care of mom, that's what she's going to follow. Can still follow what we say. They follow what we do, unfortunately.

Sarah Kleiner 00:51:54  Yeah, and there's so many studies. It's so fascinating, heartbreaking and infuriating. The research around how women have higher levels of autoimmune and chronic diseases. And there are studies that show a lot of times it is the personality type that are always putting other people first, that are always people pleasing, that are always thinking of other people's needs, that have a higher correlation with the chronic illness and autoimmune. Of course, it doesn't mean that just because you have that you for sure. Well, so I always want to clarify, but there are studies that show that there's a higher there is a correlation with those personality types and these illnesses, which just shows that like we it's so automatic. It's so automatic for so many women that's just like, okay, I gotta make sure they're taking care of what did they think about that or are they happy with me here? Is this done? And it takes a toll on the body.

Sarah Kleiner 00:52:47  And even if it doesn't get to that level of it being chronic disease or autoimmune, still even acknowledging that, like, well, there's some core programming in here that's really exhausting. That's really tiring. That's really hard. And having that part get some support and be worked with in a way it maybe never had, it can touch on a really deep place like that is oftentimes very generational. Like that can go back far. That pattern for women especially. Yeah.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:53:18  Yeah. That's I feel like I could talk to you all for another hour on that alone. Sarah, Sara. I talked about that for hours at a time because it's something else that really does, play into my work. Like how women are socialized to believe a lot of these things about ourselves and our capabilities and, and kind of put in this role of savior and caretaker. And, you know, good women are pious women that don't think about their own needs. Like it's just so much of that is drilled into your heads that it's infuriating.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:53:56  I think the more that people speak out about it, the more that women can, can, can fight that back. Because I think we work now. Right? Like we've gotten to the point where like, no, no, no, like women need to work like we don't we're not handling that nonsense anymore. But you know, the the fact that women need to work. So it's okay for her to get someone else to clean the house once a week or expect her husband to help. That's still not entirely socially acceptable, which is cuckoo bananas, because I think that most of us, you know, there are more women going to college now than men. So we tend to have careers and things that we're doing. It's not that we have any more capacity for this, it's just that it's our quote unquote role that we were assigned and we don't need to role.

Sarah Kleiner 00:54:45  And just there's something so powerful in sessions to I've seen it with clients where if it's been very hard to express our own needs, where it can, it's such a process.

Sarah Kleiner 00:54:56  There's layers where it's like, wow, what's it like to start to build up that muscle? And usually it does go back to those like inherent worthiness. And am I inherently good and am I inherently lovable if I don't perform and do well? And it's again, not to say you're even not going to do all the things like some of them we want to do. This is where this gets complex, is there can be things we want to or feel good about. I work with a lot of people who are. I've worked with a lot of nurses. I've worked with a lot of caregivers, a lot of healers, coaches, therapists, things like that, where it's there are people who inherently want to help and want to give and loving souls. So there's that. There can be that complex, that there's parts that genuinely wants it. But also if we're just bulldozing our own needs, we still have to get to a place where we feel inherently good, inherently good enough. And again, that comes from a nervous system placed on a head place.

Sarah Kleiner 00:55:48  We know that. We know in our head it's like, all right, yeah, I get it. I'm good enough, I'm great, everything like that. But that core feeling so that we feel like we at least have the choice to sneak our needs or have the choice to say no. That's just such a it's a really powerful pattern to work with and sessions, and it is really cool to see as people break that cycle in their nervous system and are like, okay, I'm asking for what I need a little bit more. I feel a little bit more confident. I was able to ask for a raise and feel neutral about it and feel okay about it, or I was able to say no to these things, and I didn't think about it for the next seven days, analyzing what I said every time or I was able to, you know, ask for something or like make a big request. And I feel good about it. Like those seems small, but what a huge shift. If all this energy doesn't have to go towards preparing for it or analyzing it after, and we just inherently feel okay enough having those choices.

Sarah Kleiner 00:56:48  I love that, Sarah.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:56:50  We have to start wrapping up girls. So can you tell our listeners where they can find you? and I know you have a free resource that you also give away to help them with their nervousness. to some regulations, maybe. Yeah. Wow.

Sarah Kleiner 00:57:07  Yeah, absolutely. So my website is just my name. It's super easy. Sarah Kleiner. Com and I do free consultation calls too. So if you're like, okay, this kind of made me curious or I don't know if it would be a fit or I want to see if things I'm experiencing might have to do with my nervous system. If you have free consultation calls, those are just that. T with Sarah. Com I'll send you the link as well. And so that always an option. And then yeah I do have a free resource that kind of helps assess and do some sort of intro practices with your nervous system as well. And yeah, I always love being a resource for it. I'm super passionate about this topic and what knowing about it can change for people.

Sarah Kleiner 00:57:50  So regardless of if you're like, I'm just curious or I have some questions, I want to be connected to other resources, don't hesitate to reach out.

Jamie Vollmoeller 00:57:59  All right. I'm so glad you were here today. This is a wonderful conversation. I want to remind our listeners that you are good enough. Until next time, guys.