Nancy Di Nuzzo: From Accountant to Advocate

*This episode contains information and experiences relating to postpartum psychosis, hallucinations, and hospitalizations. These topics are important to discuss and normalize, but please be aware of your triggers.

Join Chelsea as they talk with Nancy Di Nuzzo about her powerful journey from a career in accounting to becoming a postpartum doula. Nancy shares her unexpected pregnancy, the challenges of postpartum mental health, including her experience with postpartum psychosis, and how it inspired her to create Anamav Postnatal Care. A must-listen for expecting and new parents. 

Takeaways

• Plan for postpartum support before having a baby.
• Communication with family is crucial for managing expectations.
• Understanding perinatal mood disorders can help in early recognition.
• Seeking help early can prevent worsening mental health issues.
• There are resources available for postpartum support, like helplines.
• Creating a supportive environment can ease the transition into parenthood.
• Therapy and self-care practices are important for mental health.
• Every birth experience is unique; past experiences do not dictate future ones.
• Advocating for oneself in healthcare settings is essential.
• Community support can make a significant difference in recovery. 

Sound Bites
"I felt like a failure."
"I was on suicide watch."
"I want to do what I'm doing."

To learn more about Nancy, visit her website or her Instagram Account!

This episode discusses topics that may be triggering for some individuals. Please check the show notes for more information and be mindful of your own mental health and comfort levels.

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Transcript

Chelsea (00:44)
Hello today, I'm here with Nancy Nancy. How are you? I'm doing pretty good. I'm excited to chat with you Nancy and I Met through social media almost met in real life one time One of these days we're crossing our fingers Nancy I say this to all my guests I love that I've been able to get to know you through social media, but what my guests want to know is

Nancy Di Nuzzo (00:48)
I'm good, how are you?

Chelsea (01:10)
if you could tell us a little bit about who you are and who you were before you were a mom.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (01:16)
For sure. So thanks so much for having me, by the way. I'm really excited to be here. But I am a accountant turned postpartum doula and in a business owner now. Yeah, so I wear several different hats. I'm also a mom of two young kids, a wife, daughter, friend, all of those things. And of course, just my own person and trying to hold on to that identity, which you touched upon. Who was I before I became a mom?

Chelsea (01:28)
You

Nancy Di Nuzzo (01:46)
I used to work pretty hard. I would say I still work pretty hard, but I worked quite a bit. I was very ambitious and career driven. I worked hard, partied hard, really enjoyed travel. I liked to dance, which I still do. Yeah, I was pretty social. I definitely don't see or get to talk to my friends as much now at this stage of life, but yeah, lots of different things.

Chelsea (01:50)
Hahaha

Yeah.

Yeah, you were living your best life, it sounds like. Yeah. And when you said, like, I don't get to see my friends as much, I immediately saw that meme of, like, mom friends who were like, I'll see you in six to 12 months and I'll probably cancel. Excuse

Nancy Di Nuzzo (02:19)
I mean...

Mm-hmm.

Very accurate.

Chelsea (02:34)
You're also doing some pretty amazing things in the world of perinatal mental health, which we will absolutely dive into. But I just wanted to mention it and because it's so cool and it's so cool to watch it evolve through Instagram and whatnot and that is called Anamav Am I saying it correctly?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (02:41)
Mm-hmm.

and

Anamav

Chelsea (02:54)
Anamav And yeah, we will definitely get into that. But I would love to sort of, again, start from the beginning. Did you, I ask this of all of my guests, and at this point, it seems so trivial, but it tells me a lot. Did you always envision yourself being a parent?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (03:14)
Not always. So as I mentioned, I was fairly career driven. I feel like I still am, but in different ways. And at the time, my husband and I worked together. That's how we met. And there was a period of time when we were, you know, friends and colleagues and we hadn't started dating yet. And I would tell him, like, I'm an accountant. So I was at a firm and I was like, I want to make partner in like X number of years. And this is my dream and goal.

Chelsea (03:27)
Okay.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (03:42)
I don't have time for kids. And he would always tell me, you're going to have kids. Like he was just so sure of it and confident. like, I don't know, I think that's pretty cute that like we weren't even dating at the time. But yeah, not always. I know there was definitely a period of time where I was scared, especially to have a daughter given all the hell that I put my parents through.

Chelsea (03:44)
Yeah!

Yeah, I feel that.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (04:12)
My mom is just waiting for the time to come when my daughter does the same to me. She's turning four in a few days. And yeah, on Thanksgiving here. And my son is 17 months, so I am very much in the thick of it.

Chelsea (04:16)
How old are your little ones?

wow!

Okay.

Yeah, you really are. So you didn't always picture yourself being a parent, which I definitely didn't either. When did that sort of shift for you? When did kids start becoming more of a priority? Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (04:43)
when I started dating my husband. think it was

about, yeah, like, who can I actually picture this family, right? And yeah, I brought kids up on our first date, which he still has. he, I mean, we already knew each other at this point, right? Like we had been working together for a while. So yeah, on our first date, my husband's Italian and I'm Indian. So whatever, we were on this date. And I was like, I just randomly blurred it out.

Chelsea (04:53)
How did that go?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (05:10)
Are we gonna have mixed-race babies? And I was like, and he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, You know, obviously he's fine with the crazy and you know, we're married. So he accepted it, accepted it in its entirety.

Chelsea (05:24)
god, I love that. I love that. I can absolutely picture that. So talk to me about that journey. Like when you guys started planning to have a family, what did that look like for you guys?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (05:37)
we certainly did not start planning to have a family. I got pregnant on my honeymoon. It was not a conversation. It was not a conversation we had had. Obviously, we knew like, you know, when we got married that we wanted to have children at some point, but it was definitely not when I got pregnant. Yeah, I will be honest, I spent the entire day crying. Yeah, I was not ready. I...

Chelsea (05:40)
my gosh! Happy honeymoon!

Yeah, it's a big shock.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (06:05)
didn't go to work that day. Like we had just come back from our honeymoon when I did the, I mean, was, yeah, I guess a few weeks after when we did the test, when I did the test, like I, just did it and I didn't believe that it was true. Like I'm the type of person I literally called the number on the back of the pregnancy test and was like, what are the chances that this is wrong? And I was like, no, I don't believe you. And I went to go do a blood test with the doctor to confirm. And I still, at this point, I still hadn't told my husband.

Chelsea (06:23)
You

Nancy Di Nuzzo (06:33)
So I went to the doctor and I did the blood test and then I showed up at my husband's office and told him to come downstairs and he knows me so well he was literally like, are you pregnant? was like, just be quiet and come downstairs. So he came and I showed him like a picture of my test, my pregnancy test and I was like, what is this? Like, obviously it's all his fault, right? And then...

Chelsea (06:44)
my god.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (07:01)
Yeah, I went to the doctor, I got prenatal vitamins. I was just sitting there in the office just crying the whole time, And I was wearing, I still remember this day, obviously, right? And I was wearing a hoodie and I had my hair tied up in a bun and they probably thought I was a teenager. I hadn't gained any of my pregnancy weight at this point. So I was just sitting there and they thought it was a teen pregnancy or something. I had no partner. They're like, are you okay?

And then even the doctor was like, do you want to talk about your options? I was like, what do you mean? That was quite a day. was a very memorable day.

Chelsea (07:36)
God.

Yeah, I would say so. mean, even if you are preparing to have a family, I think that that reaction to the test is different for everybody. But it's scary. It's overwhelming.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (07:52)
And we had so many trips planned that year. And I was just like, my God, all my travel plans are out the window. You know, we weren't, we didn't get to like enjoy our time being married before having a kid. But then, you know what? Like everybody's travel plans got ruined that year. It was 2020. yeah, I found out in February and COVID hit in March. yeah.

Chelsea (07:58)
Mmm.

Yeah, it was 2020. Yeah.

my god.

Yeah, things were crazy. You were in Canada, the borders shut down. I will never forget the day they shut the borders down. This is not related whatsoever, but I was supposed to go to a Harry Styles concert in Montreal. I couldn't go, but I didn't get COVID, that, that, whatever. Anyway, back to you.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (08:23)
That was nice.

man.

Yes.

Chelsea (08:40)
you find out you're pregnant, it wasn't necessarily the way you envisioned How did that affect your experience of pregnancy?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (08:50)
It was just that first day that was hard. Yeah, it definitely got better. you know, I yeah, that was the only day I really truly cried about it I was upset about it. But then I very quickly like got started getting excited. And, you know, especially as I mentioned, like with covid hitting, it was almost like a blessing that I could stay home and I could work from home during my nausea and whatever else. Yeah. And I did I did enjoy being pregnant, like feeling those kicks. And I really I really did enjoy my pregnancy. It wasn't too bad.

Chelsea (08:52)
Okay.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (09:21)
It was healthy and yeah, I was excited. Like we were having a child and I found out it was a girl and I really wanted a girl so that was nice. You know, I wanted a girl first so I got that one. And then just yeah, setting up our house, getting all the things ready. Yeah, taking a bunch of courses, planning it out. I'm very much a planner so I spent quite a bit of time.

Chelsea (09:34)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (09:45)
prepping for labor and birth and newborn care and I did a hypno birthing class because I was really set on not getting an epidural so I planned out all these things but I did not certainly spend enough time planning for postpartum.

Chelsea (10:03)
Yeah, that was what I was gonna bring that up is that you did, you did all this prep and you were preparing yourself as much as you could, but I don't really feel like there is any or enough preparation in terms of the postpartum period. And for you especially, that did not look the way that you anticipated. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (10:26)
Yeah, not

at all. Yeah, we can talk about that. mean, I...

It's not an easy thing to talk about, but I have done it enough now to get into it. But I'm worried if we get into it too much that there will be some tears. let's see how it goes. Yeah, we can certainly talk about it. I I share my story very openly, but so it's most it's usually brief. So let's let's see how it goes. But I do want to get into detail just to, you know, share more and increase awareness. And, you know, that's why we're here. So.

Chelsea (10:41)
Yeah, and it's in this is all at your pace. So

Yeah, that's fine.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (11:02)
yeah, so I experienced postpartum psychosis, as you know, and I was diagnosed just a week in. believe the primary factor is sleep deprivation. So I, by the time I ended up in the ER, I hadn't slept for about a week, like at all. And I had started hallucinating. where should we start?

Chelsea (11:02)
Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (11:26)
I feel like we need to discuss the events leading up to it. We can start with my birth, I guess. So as I mentioned, I had taken this Hypno-Birthing course, right? So I just was so determined to make birth this magical and natural process. I don't know, that's just how I wanted it to be. And I had read all these things and heard about all this stuff, about the downsides of getting an epidural and the risks and this and that.

Chelsea (11:30)
Yeah, absolutely. This is...

Nancy Di Nuzzo (11:52)
And I just felt like it was something I could do and you know me being someone that enjoys a challenge like this is the challenge that I decided to take on so yeah, I did all this prep and I Went into labor I was nine days late by the way, so my daughter took her sweet time Not excited about that part, but yeah, so I started to have labor at home

Chelsea (12:09)
Oof. Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (12:17)
And I was doing great, like managing fine and, you know, really having a positive mindset. But I had to go into the hospital because I was GBS positive and they wanted me to come in because I had, since I was late, I had an ultrasound already scheduled and I was like, guys, I'm going to be coming later tonight anyways, because I'm in labor, like for sure, you know, I'll be coming. And they said, no, come now. So I went to the hospital earlier and then I wanted to. And that's really when things started like.

Chelsea (12:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (12:47)
going downhill. mean, I couldn't keep the same headspace and mindset in the hospital environment that I had at home. So obviously this was like prime pandemic time, right? It was October 2020. yeah, I was in triage and they didn't have a room for me because there was no rooms available. So I labored in triage from 4 p.m. to like 2 a.m. Yeah.

Chelsea (13:12)
my god.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (13:13)
So I'm in this tiny little stall with just a curtain, like there's no doors. I can hear all the other women coming and going and screaming. And I couldn't, I had like all these bags packed with like a vision board and like my yoga ball and this and that. And I had envisioned like having the space to myself that's like dark and quiet and you know, calm and I can try to manage on my own. And I couldn't do any of that. Like I couldn't, I was like in this little stall almost, right? So that was not great. And I...

Chelsea (13:17)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (13:43)
Yeah, like I couldn't, I wasn't progressing fast according to the hospital standards of fast. Yeah, according to what they consider fast. But yeah, like it was taking quite a long time and I wasn't really dilating much. And they had done a stretch and sweep, which I did not ask for. Yeah. And so my contractions got worse after that and I really was in a lot of pain.

Chelsea (13:48)
gonna say yeah yeah

Nancy Di Nuzzo (14:07)
And I had reached the point where I was throwing up and uncontrollably shaking for a few hours. And the nurse was basically like, okay, you're gonna be passing out soon. Like you need to get an epidural.

So yeah, I did at that point. So this was around 2 a.m. and it kicked in immediately and like all the physical pain stopped for the most part, but I was just in shock. So even though, you know, my body was no longer feeling it, my mind was just racing and I just couldn't believe that I had to take it.

I felt like a failure so in those moments so she and she didn't arrive for like another 10 hours after that I had a pretty long labor so she showed up around noon and Yeah, I lay there like awake for 10 hours even though I obviously should have been resting and sleeping and I was just couldn't believe like what had happened and Yeah, it was just all so much so my delivery went fine She was healthy. was healthy

We got discharged like within 24 hours and yeah, I was nuts. It so fast and in those 24 hours like after giving birth We were supposed to obviously be resting right and people just kept coming in every hour two hours Check on her check on me do this do that tell us this like give us pamphlets on mental health Give us like, you know, like support things that obviously papers that just got lost And yeah, like we got zero rest in those 24 hours

Chelsea (15:10)
my gosh.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (15:34)
I had had zero rest in the past two days of like labor, right? And all of that. So by the time I came home, it had already been like three days that I hadn't I come home, we weren't planning to have my mom there right away because my husband was off, but we realized that we were already exhausted and we now had to take care of our newborn. So we called her at 5 a.m. Like, no joke, we, you know, we tried the first night and like by 5 a.m. we were both so exhausted. We called her to come over. She came.

and she stayed with us then and so my husband, my mom and me took turns basically almost like shifts to take care of my daughter but I was breastfeeding every like 2-3 hours so I was on basically every shift but in between my feeds I was supposed to be like napping or resting but I just could not turn off my brain like I don't know what it was even though I was so exhausted I couldn't go to sleep no matter what

Chelsea (16:17)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (16:31)
And they kept telling me, go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep. But I just didn't, it's not like I didn't trust, it's my husband and my mom, you know? Like you would think that I trust them. And it's not like I had any safety concerns for her or anything like that. But I just wanted to know what they were doing and like I wanted to see and make sure she was okay. And still like, you know, couldn't believe that I had to get an epidural and this and that. And I also had a pretty bad tear I didn't mention.

I was like, I had to bad tear, like second degree, had hemorrhoids and I was in a lot of physical discomfort as well. So that definitely wasn't helping. And yeah, so this went on for four days and on the fourth day, I started to have hallucinations, like the fourth day being home. So I won't get into details of what they were, but I had quite a few on this one day on October 19th.

And

I was sitting on the couch holding my daughter and my mom started to come towards me to take her. And she's like, you need to go nap. So hand her over to me. And I told my mom, if you take one more step towards me, I'm calling 911.

And she didn't believe me because I've never acted like this before. she didn't take me seriously. And I was like, I'm serious. I called my dad first and my dad blah, blah. don't even know, obviously, at this point. I don't remember what I said exactly, but I told him that I was going to call 911. He had no idea what I was talking about, right? And then I hung up and then I called 911 and I said, my mom is trying to take my baby from me. This is what I told them. Yeah.

Chelsea (17:50)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (18:04)
So we live in a pretty safe country, right? So three cop cars showed up at my house immediately and my husband was upstairs taking a nap at this time. So I'm holding my daughter on the couch. My mom goes and wakes him up and said, Nancy called 911 and he's like, what the hell's going on? He comes down and he takes like my daughter and he's holding her and the cops are coming in.

Chelsea (18:07)
Yeah.

my gosh.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (18:28)
and they spent an hour interrogating the three of us and like by this point, my dad also showed up. So four of us. And they interrogated us each like one by one to find out what was going on. And then by the end of that, they concluded that I was not OK. And they took me to the hospital in an ambulance. And I still remember that ambulance ride.

I was so confused because I was like, why am I being taken away? Like I called the police and told them to take my mom away. She's the one that, you know, should be going somewhere. And so I went and I went alone because my mom was with my dad. My husband was with my daughter. And it's because my mom and dad went to go to shoppers to like the pharmacy to pick up bottles and formula because we had nothing at home because I was supposed to be breastfeeding exclusively for a year.

Chelsea (18:56)
Yeah.

Okay.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (19:17)
So we had done zero prep for any other like plan you know? So they went to go urgently buy things to be able to feed my daughter. And he was at home with her. So I went alone to the hospital and I was sitting there on a stretcher in the hallway and the ER was packed because of COVID again. And I was sitting there for seven hours on the stretcher.

Chelsea (19:17)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (19:42)
and they had taken all of my belongings, including my cell phone, they took my wedding ring. Yeah, they took everything and they like put it away and like my shoes. So I was barefoot. No one gave me like slippers or anything. And at this point, like I was convinced that I was dead or dreaming. Like I didn't think this was real anymore. So I was walking around.

Chelsea (19:48)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (20:02)
I went to the bathroom, like I didn't wash my hands because I was like, this is just a dream or I'm dead. Like COVID doesn't matter. I don't need to wash my hands. I still remember this. And I was just walking around barefoot in this hospital. My gowns were soaked. I had to like change my gowns a few times because I was bleeding. I don't know. I don't remember if anyone gave me any pads. I was soaking through my gowns with like my milk. I was so engorged. Right. Because I had been feeding her the past five days.

Chelsea (20:26)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (20:29)
And yeah, like no one was telling me what was going on. And I was in the state for like seven hours.

And I was just staring at the clock, just like trying to get out of this limbo, right? And I remember my blood pressure was being checked quite a So finally, my dad showed up. And I asked him, like, is this real? And he said, yeah, you're in the hospital, blah, blah. He's telling me what happened. So then me and my dad met with a few psychiatrists.

Chelsea (20:34)
God.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (20:53)
and they asked us so many questions and they really could not figure out what was going on. Like they weren't familiar with it. They didn't know what to do. So they said they thought, I think they said that they thought it was postpartum psychosis. I don't know if they, at this point, I don't honestly, like obviously the memories are not great. They're pretty fuzzy. the second time I ended up in the hospital, which I'll mention, they did say it was post, I was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis, but I don't know if I was the first visit.

Chelsea (21:14)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (21:23)
and they sent me home with their prescription for some sleeping pills.

Chelsea (21:26)
my god. my god. Like listeners can't see my face right now, holy shit, did they fail you.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (21:27)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, so they sent me home with some sleeping pills. And I, like I mentioned, I'm Indian and we definitely have a lot of stigma around mental health and like, you know, many of the older generation like don't even believe that it's a real thing. So I was not taken to the pharmacy and no one picked up these pills for me even.

And I wasn't driving at this time. was like in a lot of physical pain. was like being driven. So yeah, I went home. My parents took me to their house and sep like further separated me from my daughter because they were like, you need to rest. And I'm an only child, by the way. So they were super protective during this time. And so I was at their house and I tried to sleep. I was like trying to pump and like send milk to my daughter and what are like figuring out how to use my pump.

Chelsea (21:56)
See.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (22:25)
because I hadn't tried it yet. yeah, maybe I got like a couple handful of hours of for like two nights. And so I went back home the third night, the third day and I was like shaking. I had hypertension. So they checked my blood pressure was over 200. Like the machine was not reading it. My heart rate was over 200.

I don't know what was going on, like everything was showing up physically, right? And I was still, I still like mentally, I don't know if I was seeing things still or I don't know what was going on. Like I definitely didn't feel normal. My senses were all like messed up. And so this time my family called the ER instead of me and they thought that I was going to go back to a maternity ward because I had just obviously like had a baby and they thought that they were sending me to like a legitimate.

Chelsea (22:51)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (23:13)
place that was set up to take care of me and my husband thought that he would be allowed to stay with me so he packed a bag and he went with me so this time he stayed with me in the in ER my daughter was being taken care of by like both sets of grandparents right at this point they were like bottle feeding her and thankfully like she was fine throughout all of this and had no idea of course what was going on except that I wasn't around like that was obviously I'm sure also you know tough on her

Chelsea (23:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (23:38)
But again, waiting in the ER for like, whatever, seven hours, nine hours, like who knows? We're just sitting around. I was getting pretty pissed. I think I punched a wall My husband was like, don't do that. don't make things worse.

Chelsea (23:51)
Don't do that, please. my god.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (23:57)
So then at that at that point, I do remember I was certainly hearing things like I kept hearing things and thinking that I was hearing my daughter's name or like, don't know what else. Like I kept saying, I'm seeing all these signs. I'm hearing signs and I don't know what the hell I was talking about. then, yeah, finally they came and told me they're going to admit me to the psych ward.

And this was the hospital that I not the one that I went to the ER in first which where I should have gone because when the ambulance came to pick me up, they said, hey, we called like the first hospital I was at a few days ago and they have a room ready for you. So let's go there. And I said, no, I want to go to this other hospital where I gave birth because my OBGYN is there and I feel like he'll be able to take care of me or help me or whatever. Let's talk about how that OBGYN never came to see me once in my seven day stay.

Chelsea (24:40)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (24:46)
and I was like one floor away from him.

So I went to this hospital and they, sorry, yeah, they came and told me that I was gonna get admitted and my husband could not stay with me. So we were not prepared for that, right? Like I was completely shocked and yeah, they thought I was going to like a maternity ward, but I was going to a psych ward. And yeah, so I said bye to him and they took me upstairs and they put me in isolation I was on suicide watch.

Chelsea (25:06)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (25:17)
And I don't know if the isolation was related to COVID or related to, like at this point I have no idea if it was like because of my mental health or because of COVID, like who even knows what was going on, right? And so I was there by myself in this room and I was being recorded, like there was a camera and there was a window, so I had zero privacy and I was pumping at this time, like trying to pump for my daughter. And yeah, the nurses were...

So busy taking care of these other people that were much higher priority because they were trying to harm themselves or other people and like they didn't know what to do with me. I was asking for pads, I was asking for like my mesh undies and asking for this and like special foods or prune juice for like you know being able to use the bathroom or whatever and they just could not care for me the way I needed care at that time. No one was even helping me like move around. I could barely get out of the bed by myself.

One of the good things of staying at the hospital was that it did force me to move and you know, I did recover in a matter of like a few weeks physically, but obviously not mentally. So I, yeah, every day I was seen by a psychiatrist and I asked him a bunch of questions and he like asked me a bunch of questions and we just every day kept, he kept me there and I didn't realize like I was being kept there. Like I obviously I realized when I was there and talking to him but...

Every day, he got to decide if I got to go home or not, which was insane. I just couldn't believe it, you know?

Chelsea (26:39)
Mmm.

because you were involuntarily admitted? Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (26:46)
Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, thankfully my husband did come to visit me every day. even though like the hospital was far and he left my daughter and you know, he came, we didn't, couldn't bring her because of COVID. We didn't want to risk her. Like she could have come, but we really didn't want to risk her. so that was really hard. Like I FaceTimed her and it was really upsetting, but you know, that was, that separation was really tough on us. I did lose my milk supply because of it and I couldn't breastfeed her after that.

yeah, it was it was insane the first night I didn't mention this so the first night that I was there They kept telling me to sleep and I was just like in this mode that I could not and I was so pissed and I was so Confused and I was just sitting there like talking about stuff to the camera I still remember like because I thought they could hear me. I found out after that there was no audio so was just sitting there like talking to them

Chelsea (27:41)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (27:44)
to the nurses or like, you know, for hours and hours and they came and they were trying to force me to take medication. So I was saying, no, like I'm not taking this. And so I definitely know I didn't do anything to try to harm anyone, but they, don't know, like on whose orders I tried. haven't, never tried to like pursue this with the hospital afterwards. Well, like, I don't know, there was, I didn't think there was any point, but.

Chelsea (28:11)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (28:11)
two

or three nurses came and physically strapped me to the bed and injected me. And I will never forget that moment because I was like, you know, I thought I lived in a free country. Like I have never done anything cause anyone harm. you know, we have rights and I'm a professional, like, hello, I'm like designated. You know, I have several designations. I've never.

committed a crime, like, you know what I mean? I was just in shock that this was me, like, being treated this way. All I had done was have a baby.

Chelsea (28:38)
Yeah, yeah.

It's okay. It's deep. I'm with you right now. I'm with you right now. I've been there. I've been there several times. I'm there.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (28:57)
Okay, carrying on. it's not, it's really not. Yeah, not just for me, like everyone that has gone through something similar, like it's really not okay. And that's why we're here, right? Anyways, okay, moving forward. So eventually he diagnosed me with bipolar and postpartum psychosis and this and that, and prescribed my medication and it,

Chelsea (28:59)
It's okay. I mean, it's not okay. What happened to you is not okay. It's not but this Yes

Yes. Yep.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (29:25)
Discharged me on the condition that I would take this medication and I had follow-ups with him every week two weeks For a few months or I guess for like five five months I was on my medication for five months and I slowly weaned myself off of it against his Against this psychiatrist who I hated against his whatever Recommendations. Thank you

Chelsea (29:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

recommendations.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (29:51)
yeah, so he told me I would have to be on medication my whole life and this would likely happen again if I had more kids. This is what he fucking said to me. Sorry. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this. Excellent. Yeah, so that's what he said to me. and you know, happy to report did not experience it again with my second last year and did not have to go on medication again or for my whole yeah, that was nuts.

Chelsea (30:00)
No, you can swear! Explicit warning! can se- Yes. Yes. Yes.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (30:17)
I hated that label. I was like, what do you mean? And by the way, like the second side, had a psychiatrist prevent preventatively with my second, just to manage my anxiety when I was pregnant. And she was following me and, you know, just to have someone in case I needed medication right after giving birth. And I asked her, I'm like, hey, am I actually bipolar? And she said, no, like that was an isolated incident. And he, you know, like these things are difficult to understand. And like no one can really, you know, every psychiatrist has different opinions, too.

That was definitely one thing I struggled with. The number of doctors I had talked to just trying to understand my condition when I was going through it. It was nuts. Like everybody had their own opinions and what medicine should I take and this and that. It was nuts. No.

Chelsea (30:46)
Yeah.

not okay. It's not okay.

I just want to take this deep breath moment because that's a lot. you just shared with us is a lot, but it's real and it is happening. It is happening and it's not uncommon. I'm especially interested because a lot of women and birthing people are diagnosed with bipolar following childbirth.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (31:31)
Hmm.

Chelsea (31:32)
exactly

this reason, either a psychotic episode or severe perinatal mental health disorders. Had you had a history of mental health struggles in the past? No, nothing.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (31:44)
Nothing, not diagnosed.

I would say I did probably have some degree of anxiety. Stress impacts me quite a bit. Yeah, that was like careers stress or like academic stress. I take things really seriously, I would say. But I was never diagnosed with anything and I never had to take medication.

Chelsea (31:53)
Yes.

So like, so when this was happening to you and you definitely like alluded to it, you had absolutely no idea what was going on. You didn't know what the hell... Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (32:15)
I knew nothing, I knew nothing and also

this whole experience like childbirth, knock on wood, I've been fortunate enough to have a healthy life up to this point. Childbirth was the first time I was admitted to a hospital as a patient. Like I had never broken a bone, I hadn't gotten stitches, nothing. So I showed up at this hospital, like this is the first time I've worn a hospital bracelet and you know, a week later I'm admitted to a freaking psychiatric ward. It was insane.

Chelsea (32:27)
Wow.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think too, it speaks to several things. One, like you said, like you're in Canada and the healthcare system is different there than it is here in the US. There's, right, we have this idea that you have more access and access to...

Nancy Di Nuzzo (32:54)
supposedly, yeah, like more access and

free

services.

Chelsea (33:05)
and quality care. Like here in the US we have such a health and mental health crisis like and the disparities especially in the birthing community like are the US

Nancy Di Nuzzo (33:07)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chelsea (33:20)
is horrendous when it comes to maternal mental health and death rates. So but it's important to note that you're in Canada where we all were like, well, we'll just move to Canada if things get bad. Like, it's not saying that the whole system is screwed up. But like the grass isn't always greener.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (33:22)
I know. Yeah.

No, we should move to like Sweden or Malaysia or something. Yeah.

Chelsea (33:41)
Right? I want to go to Finland or something like that.

But what you experienced, the lack of care that you were given, the lack of consistency that you were given is appalling.

and not okay, especially. Like I'm envisioning you when you were talking about like bleeding through your your gowns and stuff and I'm like and no one no one even thought to to come to you. Like it blows my mind.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (34:13)
It was, mean,

part of the blame is, I don't know what amount of it, but it's definitely like the pandemic, right? In general, our healthcare crisis and not having enough staff and not having enough resources and this and that. Timing was definitely not great. But regardless, like the fact that there aren't spaces available specifically for women that have just had a baby and then are experiencing a mental health crisis.

Chelsea (34:20)
yes.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (34:37)
is just,

you know, whether it's in Canada or the States, like it's ridiculous. And I know like there are samples or models in the world, right? Like the UK has these types of units. So we have examples. Yeah. No.

Chelsea (34:46)
Yes. I was going to ask, you don't have them

in Canada. Yeah, so I've had guests from the UK and from Australia who talk about mother-baby units. And in the US, that's just where you go after you deliver. Like, yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (34:55)
them.

Yeah.

Right. No, we have those.

We have those, it's not specific. It's not for when like going back, like in my case, right? Yeah.

Chelsea (35:08)
Right, that's what it is outside

of the North America. so mother-baby units in the UK and in Australian countries like that are places that you go when you're having a mental health crisis and your baby can go with you. It's like there are, absolutely, absolutely. And then in the US, there are only two,

Nancy Di Nuzzo (35:13)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

which makes sense, common sense, yeah.

Chelsea (35:36)
inpatient psychiatric hospitals specializing in perinatal mental health in the entire country. There's one in North Carolina and there's one in California. And that's it. Are there any that you know of in Canada? No. No.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (35:37)
States.

not

that I know of right now. mean, maybe they're being worked on in some places, but not right now, like open.

Chelsea (35:57)
Yeah.

Because exactly like what you said, like they were not equipped to deal with what you were going through. And it's the, it's, I had a very similar experience. So I, I just want you to know, especially cause I know that it's very hard to talk about. Like you're not alone.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (36:08)
Hmm.

in the

details, like briefly, it's definitely, you know, I've talked about it several times, but getting into the details and reliving or, you know, reimagining it is definitely challenging.

Chelsea (36:25)
Yeah.

Well, and

I want to acknowledge too, as we're recording this, it's October 11th. Anniversaries are hard and you are approaching one. And so I just, I don't applaud you, but I'm giving you the biggest like virtual hug right now because I know what that feels like. So for you to share right now.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (36:36)
Yes.

Yeah.

It's when the weather gets cold. October here typically is when it starts getting a little cooler. So I do remember like, you know, when all of this was like in 2020, when all of this was happening, I remember coming home from the hospital and it was still like, it was still kind of warm, kind of OK. But once all of this happened and then when I started going outside again into the world, I was like, what happened? Like a full season changed.

Chelsea (37:14)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (37:15)
and it's

freezing now, like where are my boots? Where is my jacket? You know, like literally I was like in the space, yeah. I was having all of this happen to me like that month, that first month, right after having the baby, it was insane, it was such a blur. And I went outside and I was like, my God, it's winter.

Chelsea (37:18)
Yes! Isn't that so strange?

Yeah, it's...

Yeah. you really are. You're so, so motherhood and new motherhood is so isolating in and of itself. When you add a psychiatric inpatient hospital stay, that that's isolation. That's, the world goes on and aren't part of it.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (37:49)
Yeah.

I remember when I got outside, like when my husband came to pick me up and when I got discharged, I literally went outside and like hugged a tree. I still have that picture. I'm so happy to be outside.

Chelsea (38:02)
Yeah. Yeah. my God.

Yes. Yeah. You don't. Listeners, if you've never experienced this, at least my experience three times in three separate hospitals, we didn't go outside. We weren't taken outside. And again, that's due to not having enough staffing, not having enough resources. regardless, I kind of want to know.

I feel like it's jumping around and it's not in terms of minimizing anything. It's because I want to maximize your time. But when you considered having another child, how did this experience impact that decision?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (38:44)
So if I wasn't an only child, I am certain I wouldn't have wanted another one. I probably wouldn't have done it. But because I knew what that would feel like for my daughter, was like, whatever, we have to make this happen and I'm going to do everything I can to not go through this experience again. So I stopped working a few months earlier than my maternity leave.

Chelsea (38:58)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (39:13)
and I did therapy and I did yoga and I connected with the psychiatrist to talk about the plan. I interviewed a bunch of doulas and made sure that I had support at home for the first month, like every night, even though, you know, here it's not covered by our public health care system, so it was private.

Chelsea (39:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (39:38)
But that's what I chose to invest in because it was important to me and I wanted to make sure that my sleep was protected. And then I also they do have a program. I don't know if anywhere in the States they have it, but we have a program called Five Day Five Nights where you do get to stay in the hospital after giving birth for an extra five nights and you're seen by psychiatry. It's like part of the psychiatry team and you're seen like every day. It is voluntary.

but you have to have gone through something like this to be accepted into the program. So that, I did sign up for that with my second. So I basically lined up a bunch of support and did things to manage my anxiety in the last few months before having my baby. So yeah, I mean, my husband also wanted to have multiple kids. So we talked about it, like when we were getting pregnant.

We did wait. It wasn't immediately, obviously not immediately after it took me. I had to recover myself first, Like I said, I was on medication for about five months and until she turned almost two, I was not ready at all. So yeah, their gap is just over two and a half years. And yeah, so I just took that time to myself to really prepare.

Chelsea (40:34)
you

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (40:56)
and when he was born. So again, these psychiatrists, they wanted me to start medication during my pregnancy to like prevent it. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, why am I doing this? You know, like I'm doing other things to manage my anxiety, like doing yoga and lining up support and feeling like, you know, that I have a plan in place and I'm prepared. Why do I need to be taking medication when I'm pregnant?

Chelsea (41:05)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (41:24)
Because obviously, no matter what we say, some amount is going to impact the baby to some degree. It's something that's going into my body, even if it's very low risk. So yeah, I didn't take it during pregnancy. And then they're like, OK, take it immediately after having your baby. And I was like, no, I don't want to do that either. Clearly, I'm not a very easygoing patient.

Chelsea (41:45)
Yeah, yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (41:53)
So I told them I promise I will tell you and take medication as soon as we have the slightest symptom of anything That I can't fall asleep or whatever it is or anxiety or whatever, know, right racing thoughts blah blah blah. So Yeah, so they like the psychiatrist agreed and so I was part of this five extra five nights I stayed in the hospital and they monitored me every day The best part of the program was that they did take my baby at night

Chelsea (42:20)
Hmm?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (42:20)
and I got a solid like six, seven hours of sleep. But they did encourage breastfeeding and pumping, so I was doing that. So I would just pump enough during the day so that they could feed him at night when I wasn't with them. and they again, like they were convinced that I had to use formula. Like, I don't know what what is the deal with some some like practitioners in some hospitals, but they're like, it's OK. Like if you have to use formula, like get on board, blah, blah, blah.

Chelsea (42:25)
That's huge.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (42:50)
I was like, why? If I'm doing it, just let me do what I'm doing. If this is what's gonna help me manage my anxiety, just let me do it. I didn't get the opportunity to with my first, I wanna try with my second, right? That was fully taken away from me. So anyway, so I pumped those five days and I fed him and he was fine and we didn't end up using formula, so obviously I was very happy about that.

Chelsea (43:13)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (43:13)
I did eventually start after when he had his own issues with breastfeeding and whatever. We're not going to get into it, but I did feed him enough to feel good about it. It was obviously more than I was able to with my daughter, so I was still happy with our decisions. So yeah, nothing happened in the hospital those five days. I went home. I had doulas at my house for a month. It was fabulous. And some of those doulas are actually on our team now at Anamav.

which we'll get into, which is amazing. Yeah, even my lactation consultant from the hospital, like that five day, five night program, the one that was supporting me, she was amazing. She would come and check on me every day. She's also one of our lactation consultants. So, so amazing to have them join us. But yeah, so I just, you know, had all this support and it was wonderful. Like nothing happened after the one month was up. You know, I had my usual.

Chelsea (43:42)
Which is so cool! Yeah!

I love that.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (44:07)
that every new parent faces, like the five, six hours at night that I'm awake in between feeds and this and that. But yeah, I just very quickly decided to switch to only bottle feeding at night and to make sure that I get rest and just did what I needed to do to really protect my mental health and my sleep.

Chelsea (44:26)
I think I want to highlight for listeners that this is a really good example of the whole idea that every birth is different. Every birth experience is different. And just because you go through a perinatal mental health disorder for one, through one pregnancy, it doesn't mean that you'll go through it in another one. You may, you're predispositioned. Like that's a known thing. You may, but I don't...

I, you are, you are a perfect example of like, if, if you take steps and you are, you are taking preventative measures and being proactive, also advocating for yourself. Yeah. Advocating for yourself is huge. Again, I don't want to feel like I'm rushing you, but I want to be respectful of your time.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (45:04)
Yes.

Chelsea (45:12)
Before I get into Anamav because I really want to get into that, I want to know, because all of this was so much and it's so much to carry, what brings you joy about being your kid's mom?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (45:24)
So for me, that part of everything, I never had any negativity around it. So even with everything that was happening to me with the psychosis, it was all related to me. Like I know some moms and some parents, their psychosis can show up differently or even like postpartum depression or anxiety, they can have negativity towards their babies. But I was thankfully not in that situation and I...

You know, I always loved being her mom, even throughout all of that. Like that was the one thing that I was sure of, even though I had no idea what was going on in my head and my body and, you know, felt like I had no control over anything. I loved her like from the beginning. So, and same with my son. So I'm really happy at least that I accepted that aspect of motherhood. You know, I love being a mom, but it is, there's...

Chelsea (45:55)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (46:18)
There's several other aspects of motherhood that I don't enjoy, but it's never about them. You know what I mean? Like there are so many things that feel hard, like managing now, for example, the time between the two of them and like competing. Which one do I prioritize when they both need me or need things? Right. And then the guilt. I definitely have so much guilt all the time about like spending time with them, spending time building my business, spending time on my self care. Yeah, there's several parts of motherhood, I would say that.

Chelsea (46:23)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (46:46)
I find like challenging every day, right? Like it's been four years now, but there's definitely several things I find challenging, but I've never questioned like how much I love them or how I feel towards them. So I am like thankful for that.

Chelsea (47:00)
So how did this transform this high profile career oriented woman to what is now Animav? Is it postnatal or is it?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (47:16)
Yeah, it's Anamav Postnatal Care. That's officially what it's called.

Chelsea (47:19)
Okay, Anamav postnatal care.

There's so many people that I've connected with. I'm like, okay, so there's Mom's Mental Health Initiative. There's blah, blah, blah, blah. So, okay, so Anamav to me about that. Talk to me about the vision for that and what that has become for you.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (47:23)
I'm sorry.

Yeah.

in

For sure. So when I was sitting in the hospital, was like, something needs to be done about this, right? And I was so sure that I would be doing something about it at some point. But obviously, like it wasn't then because I had to recover myself. And then I did want to go back to my job because we knew that we wanted to have a second, you know, I did want to go back to work, have a second child, take care of all of that. And then

Chelsea (47:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (48:03)
you know, hopefully be in a place where I can start supporting other women and families. So thankfully, as I mentioned with my second, I had a positive experience and we didn't get into this, but another part of it was that the birth was easier. it was shorter. was, I also accepted very early on that I was okay having an epidural if I needed one. This time around, yes, this time around I was like, if I need it, I'm taking it when I'm like, when it's time. So.

Chelsea (48:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that'll make a difference.

Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (48:33)
Yeah, that definitely helped. And I also, I chose a different hospital. I, so the team was wonderful and they really involved me. I want to mention like they really involved me in the decision making, which I thought, and the communication was much better. So all of those things really helped me feel like I had control over my own birth, you know, and like my experience. So that I think helped as well.

Chelsea (48:55)
Yeah.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (48:57)
But yeah, getting back to your question. So during with my second, you know, after he started sleeping better in a few months and the second half of my maternity leave with him, I started really thinking about what I wanted to do. So initially, the idea was to open a postnatal care center, which would serve the purpose that we exactly what we talked about, just having a space for, but it was more not for women to come back to if they're in crisis.

Chelsea (49:17)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (49:26)
but to prevent it in the first place. So really just having a space for family, like obviously the birthing person and their partner and baby to stay at after leaving the hospital when they're discharged after like 24 hours and before going home so that they actually feel prepared for what's coming, right? So having them sleep there and have the baby sleep in a separate room if they would like and be taken care of by qualified professionals. Have their meals taken care of.

receive education and workshops and really just know what they're doing or feel like they have a stronger foundation before they go home, especially if they're first time parents. Even if they're second time parents, then at least they have a dedicated space where they don't have to, like maybe one partner can stay at home with the first, right, and then mom can stay with the second. So I wanted to create this space and I started to have conversations around it.

Another big thing for me was affordability and accessibility. you know, obviously for that, I would need some kind of funding and partnerships with the government. So I started working on it, but very in a few months of working on this, I realized that this is like several years out and it's a big project. So rather than continuing my accounting job for those years while I wait.

I decided to shift and start with in-home care services so that I can start supporting families now. So that's what I did. in terms of timeline, it all happened pretty soon. I started working on my business in January and, decided to launch the in-home care services in March. And then in, yeah, in July, I hired a team of 10 and then launched our services in August.

Chelsea (51:18)
my god.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (51:18)
It

was, yeah, it's been insane, insane. Like it's been insanity these past 10 months now. Yeah, it's been really, really busy, but really great. Yeah, so we launched our services in August. I just recently did like a huge event, our Toronto Baby Show. And so, you know, just really trying to spread awareness and get recognized in the community and start sharing our services with people and start getting our first set of clients.

Chelsea (51:24)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's been so cool to watch this unfold. I think social media can be toxic in a lot of ways, but I have found through this community, through this club that none of us wanted to join, it's been a really beautiful way to see people like yourself.

like taking your experience and I hate silver linings so if you've listened to my show I hate silver linings but taking the experience that you've gone through and doing something to ensure that doesn't happen to someone else and I think your go-getter mindset and your like high achieving mindset is working to your advantage because you you're doing the damn thing like you're doing it

so I guess obviously I would love to literally chat with you forever. because that would just be amazing. But to bring it all home.

What do you hope my listeners take away from your experience?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (52:55)
Okay, I would say two big things. One would be, you know, prevention. So how can you prevent what happened to me from happening to you if you are expecting or planning to have a family or whatever the case, right? You can plan for postpartum. So lining up your support system, setting up your home.

having important conversations with your family members to make sure everyone's on the same page and has the same expectations, knowing exactly who is gonna be doing what, especially if you have multiple children, who's taking care of various responsibilities, who's taking care of finances, just avoiding a lot of those conflicts after. So definitely a lot of that communication upfront. If you've never heard of a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder, at least having a very, very basic understanding of the symptoms and what could happen.

so that you can recognize them early and get help. Yeah, I would say spending some time during your pregnancy planning for those things, I think can really make a big difference. And then secondly, if you are currently experiencing something or you're struggling, catching it earlier and getting support early so that you can prevent it from becoming more severe, right? So reaching out to whatever healthcare provider you can connect with.

or who can then connect you with the right person, right? Or anyone in your family and friends or other support system so that they can help you find right support and the right help. One thing I didn't mention, as we haven't talked about so far, is that I am involved in a few nonprofit organizations as well in the perinatal mental health space. So they offer phenomenal resources. some of them...

are Canadian, but one of them is Postpartum Support International, which I'm sure you're aware of, I know you are. They have like their helpline, right? You can call and text anytime, wherever you are, and you can get specialized support or local support for your specific circumstances. So there's just so many things that are available that you may not necessarily know about because you haven't needed to know about it, but looking for that help, I think, can really make a difference long term.

Chelsea (54:44)
Yep.

Absolutely. Listeners, definitely be sure to check the show notes because all of these things, these resources, Nancy's website and social media accounts will all be tagged down there so you can follow along. But if my listeners want to follow you and follow this journey, what's the best way to do that?

Nancy Di Nuzzo (55:33)
Our social media for sure Instagram is definitely where I'm most active and it's at Anamav postnatal and then for more details on our services our team all of those things everything we're up to our website you can subscribe to stay in touch and also learn more it's Anamav.CA

Chelsea (55:50)
and you will find that in the show notes. Nancy, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for being so authentic and vulnerable and for being real and for also being an example that there is another side to PMADs So thank you.

Nancy Di Nuzzo (56:08)
for sure. Thank you for having me.