NICU, Infant Loss, and the Power of Connection: Remembering Saachi - Emily & Mahaley's Story

What happens when a perinatal therapist and loss mom "slides into the inbox" of a fellow therapist and author? You get a powerful collaboration designed to help families navigate the unique trauma of the NICU. In this episode, Chelsea sits down with Emily Souder and Mahaley Patel to discuss their new guided journal, Birth Story Brave: NICU Edition. 

Mahaley shares her heartbreaking and transformative journey through the loss of her daughter, Saachi, and how that experience led her to pursue surrogacy and eventually parent two "babies six months apart". 

Emily discusses her background in PICU trauma and how she uses her "garden witch" energy to help parents slow down and claim their stories. 

Together, they explore the concept of "The Both/And"—rejecting toxic silver linings while embracing the beautiful, strange connections (and signs like dragonflies, butterflies, and crows!) that emerge from the darkest moments of parenting. 

🔑Key Takeaways

• Rejecting Silver Linings: The guests discuss why "silver linings" can be harmful, as they often feel like a justification for a child's death. Instead, they advocate for the "Both/And"—holding grief and creativity simultaneously.
• The Universal Impact of the NICU: Whether a stay lasts for hours or months, or whether the outcome is bringing a baby home or leaving without one, the experience is valid and impactful.
• Signs as Connection: From butterflies and dragonflies to snails and crows, the episode highlights how paying attention to "signs" can help grieving parents feel connected to something bigger.
• Partner Stories Matter: A major goal of their new book was to include the often-forgotten perspective of partners in the NICU journey.

💬Sound Bites

• "The answer to an unasked question is always no... the worst thing that could happen is they say no."
• "How do you tell a person in 30 seconds... that they are the reason that you're still breathing?" (Note: This is a cross-reference to Chelsea's reflection in the package context).
• "I think that silver linings become those reasons... I cannot stand when people give me a silver lining because what it says to me is that my daughter's death was justified."
• "Shame dies when we bring it out of the darkness and shine a light on it."

Resources:

• The Books: 
  • Birth Story Brave: NICU Edition by Emily Souder
  • Your NICU Story: Reflecting on Your Family's Experience by Emily Souder & Mahaley Patel
• Emily’s Website: https://emilysouder.com/
• Mahaley’s Practice: https://www.mahaleypatel.com/

This episode discusses topics that may be triggering for some individuals. Please check the show notes for more information and be mindful of your own mental health and comfort levels.

Visit our Patreon to help support our mission to normalize the conversation and end the stigma surrounding PMADs!

Transcript

Chelsea Myers (01:40)
Hello, today I am here with two guests. I'm here with Emily and Mahaley Hello, how are you both?

Emily Souder (01:50)
Hello. Thank you so much for having us. I'll let Mahaley start off. How are you doing?

Mahaley Patel (01:50)
Hello?

I'm doing great amidst

my parking situation in Canada that I'm trying to deal with. I'm doing great. Yeah, it's not great. It's also freezing here, so it's not.

Chelsea Myers (02:07)
Yeah, we just went over this. The parking situation is not playing nice. It's not being Canadian.

It's freezing! What is what ⁓ well okay are you gonna give me Celsius? What is it where you are right now?

Mahaley Patel (02:21)
Yeah, I've fully converted to Celsius. No, ⁓ the car does say 17 degrees Celsius. I don't know what that is. I think it's somewhere in the 50s, low 50s.

Emily Souder (02:24)
Don't do that, I don't know what it means.

Chelsea Myers (02:32)
Okay, yeah, that's not fun.

No, I'm in Vermont, which we're usually really cold, but we're 75, so I'm solid, that is cold, I feel you. Emily, how are you?

Mahaley Patel (02:43)
Yeah. It's a mess.

Emily Souder (02:48)
I'm like in the sandwich generation feel of things right now. I'm in that era of my life. So it's a little bit of a lot, but I'm in Maryland and it's a little humid here today. But ⁓ you know, I'm like very one day at a time, not even one day at a time. I'm like one moment at a time right now.

Chelsea Myers (03:08)
Yeah, I feel that. I feel that deeply. ⁓ well, I appreciate you both spending some moments with me. ⁓ and yeah, I'm, we're gonna get into it. And this will be a little interesting. I've only done a couple of episodes with two guests at once. but we're gonna, we're gonna dive into it. I think I will start off like I always start off. And I'll ask you guys and I'll ask you separately. I'll make it easy for you.

Mahaley Patel (03:18)
Likewise.

Chelsea Myers (03:37)
But the questions will be, who are you today? And who were you before becoming a parent? And how about we start with Emily?

Emily Souder (03:47)
Okay, so just who am I today to start or who am I today to start out with? Okay. ⁓ I'm still learning a lot about myself. I know the identifiers, right? I know I'm a mom and a wife and a friend and a daughter and a sister and all those things. ⁓ I think I'm somewhat of a garden witch or maybe a kitchen witch or somewhere in between.

Chelsea Myers (03:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Love

Emily Souder (04:16)
⁓ I'm someone who's really believing more and more that I care less about what the people around me think of me and whether I'm weird or that kind of thing. I'm very much that person. ⁓ I'm also a perinatal mental health therapist and ⁓ that's work that I love doing, but I also really love working with clients around neurodivergence and ⁓ starting to get into the sandwich generation stuff that I talked about.

Chelsea Myers (04:30)
Yes!

Emily Souder (04:45)
So, and I'm a writer and I'm an owner of chickens and cats and all of those things.

Chelsea Myers (04:51)
And yeah, yeah,

⁓ I love the witchy vibes and the I don't give an F vibes. I would like some more of that in my life. Yeah, Mahaley, how about who are you today?

Emily Souder (04:58)
Thank you.

Mahaley Patel (05:05)
I think like Emily said, I'm probably still figuring it out. Those pre-parenthood questions are tricky for me because it's like pre-parenthood, my oldest is almost nine. But then I also have a daughter that I lost in 2023. So I think that's been the biggest identity shift for I think like many people who have lost children and are kind of on a forever grief journey, it evolves all the time.

Who I am what I feel what I have the capacity for but like Emily said I know the identifier is right. I'm also a wife a mother to four lot of things still ring true like that always have my sense of humor ⁓ my love for laughter fun Spending time with friends family, etc. Also therapists specializing in perinatal mental health

focus a little bit more on the kind trauma, bereavement, grief aspect of that, but yeah.

Chelsea Myers (06:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I like too that you identified that who you are today is it's going to, it may not be who you are tomorrow or who you were yesterday. Like it's a constantly evolving thing and we are going to get deep into your story and Emily's story too. But talk to me a little bit about pre-kids. said, Mahaley, you said you have an almost nine year old. I have an almost 10 year old, so I feel you. ⁓

Mahaley Patel (06:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (06:36)
puberty is knocking at the door and I don't want to answer. I would rather say we're not home. ⁓ But anyway, enough about me. Did both of, did either of you or did both of you envision yourselves having kids? Was it something that was on your life plan? Whoever wants to go first.

Emily Souder (06:38)
You

Mahaley Patel (06:40)
you

Emily Souder (06:58)
Mm.

Mahaley looks like she has an answer like ready to I can I can hold my tongue a minute.

Mahaley Patel (07:00)
you.

Well,

yeah, I always wanted kids. That was never, it was never something that I really questioned. I always knew that I really wanted to be. ⁓

Find a life partner. I don't know that like marriage specifically was important. I mean I did want to get married but finding a life partner And having kids was something very much ⁓ But I think like a lot of people I didn't really have any idea what that meant Yeah

Chelsea Myers (07:30)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Souder (07:33)
Yeah, I have an almost 11 year old and an eight and a half year old. And I think that the idea of having kids was pretty constant, although there were times in my life, like in different points where I was considering career paths and things like that, where the idea would kind of I would play with the idea of like, ⁓ what would it look like if we didn't? And ⁓ but it was pretty clear once my husband and I met and.

Chelsea Myers (07:33)
that resonates.

Emily Souder (08:00)
decided that we wanted to spend our lives together that I was like, ⁓ yeah, but I really want to have kids with this guy and I really want to create a family with him. So that was pretty clear.

Chelsea Myers (08:08)
And as we'll get into the path, like you said, or like Mahaley said, really had no idea what we what we were signing up for. ⁓ And both of your journeys took very different paths than I'm sure either of you could have ever anticipated. Which is kind of why we're here. We're here to talk about those things and normalize those things. And it's the reason that the two of you wrote a book.

Emily Souder (08:35)
That's actually, that's Mahaley's fault. It's all her fault.

Chelsea Myers (08:36)
and, ⁓ that's Mahaley,

that it's your fault.

Mahaley Patel (08:43)
It is.

Chelsea Myers (08:43)
We're going to, we're, we're playing the blame game. ⁓ no, I know. Well, okay. So that, that's an interesting, I'm sure listeners are interested. Did you two know each other prior to this?

Emily Souder (08:47)
I'm just kidding.

Mahaley Patel (08:48)
Yes.

I knew of Emily's work. Yeah, I had used a book that she had written for several years. It came across my desk. I don't know, five years ago. So I used a book that she wrote, ⁓ Birth Story Brave at the time, which is now Birth Story Brave Reimagined. ⁓ And I do a type of trauma therapy called EMDR.

And so because of that and working in the perinatal space, I got a lot of birth trauma clients, have had, still have. And at some point in that work, her book came across, classic friend and colleague recommended it to me. And it was sort of kind of the first time that I really realized like the power that writing and telling your story can have.

Chelsea Myers (09:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (09:48)
outside of the therapy room. so much of therapy and talk therapy is telling her story, but ⁓ I think more specifically writing and writing in a kind of guided way that her book allowed for. So yeah, we did not know each other, but I was familiar with her work.

Chelsea Myers (10:03)
Yeah, and you're bo.. would go like... I was just gonna say, I was gonna say she had, so you kind of just were like, hey. Did you, yeah, yeah. I feel like some of the best friendships are formed that way too. Yeah.

Emily Souder (10:05)
She slid into my DMs.

Mahaley Patel (10:09)
Yeah.

Basically, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean it's

Emily Souder (10:21)
Yeah, yeah.

Mahaley Patel (10:23)
wild, but I don't know. you know like sometimes your parents or someone influential in your life will say something and it's really simple, but it kind of sticks with you. I had one of those moments many years ago with my mom who is wildly accomplished and educated and ⁓ super smart and she was just like, I mean if you don't ask.

Chelsea Myers (10:34)
Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (10:45)
like you're never gonna know, right? Like the answer to an unasked question is always no. And I think that's always just stuck with me. So I would rather ask and ask in a nice way, right? And like the worst thing that could happen is they say no. Which she didn't, spoiler alert.

Chelsea Myers (10:47)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Souder (10:59)
Yeah, and then the doors can open. I

Chelsea Myers (10:59)
Bye.

Emily Souder (11:01)
know, right? And I said, yes.

Mahaley Patel (11:04)
you

Chelsea Myers (11:05)
No, I love that. That is so wise. And that's something that my mother has said to me as well in doing this, because they're just like you. Like when you read Emily's work and you were like, ⁓ I really want to connect with her. There are people that I've wanted to connect with. And I've been like, there's no way this person's ever going to respond to me. Right? Like I'm never going to hear. Like the birth trauma mama. I'm like, there's a she's there's she's never going to respond to me. Yeah, she does. It could be because if you if you don't

Mahaley Patel (11:25)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Souder (11:32)
That's fantastic.

Mahaley Patel (11:32)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (11:34)
If you don't reach out, it's always a no. ⁓ So yeah, so but the other side of this coin too is that you guys are in a club that no one wants to join. You guys are kind of in this in this journey that no one wants to be a part of. But you meet some of the most extraordinary people and you find your people in this journey. So spoiler alert again.

Mahaley Patel (11:37)
Yeah, that's what it is.

Chelsea Myers (12:02)
What kind of connects the two of you? Not only are you both mental health, mental health professionals and in the perinatal field, but you both have NICU experiences. Correct?

Emily Souder (12:11)
So actually, and I'll let Mahaley

like start to. So I actually did not have a NICU experience. I was a NICU baby, which I totally forgot about until after the book came out. Surprise. ⁓ But I had volunteered in the NICU when I was a teenager. And then I had a PICU experience with my son. But Mahaley brings, like other than working with my therapy clients, Mahaley brings the personal NICU experience from.

Chelsea Myers (12:19)
Okay, okay

Mahaley Patel (12:19)
You

Emily Souder (12:39)
actually having a baby in the NICU.

Chelsea Myers (12:42)
Okay, see, I told you guys, I don't do a whole lot of research because I want to meet you authentically and this is perfect. I'm learning authentically, but I appreciate it. I appreciate your understanding so let's dive into a little bit of your personal stories and how you guys connected, obviously.

Emily Souder (12:45)
It's okay. It's okay.

It's okay.

Chelsea Myers (13:02)
I think I'll probably start with Mahaley and just talk about, you are a mom to four, but can you walk me through your journey into and through parenting up until today?

Mahaley Patel (13:17)
Sure, I'll give you a really abbreviated version. My oldest is almost nine. She'll be nine in November. So the journey to her was pretty simple. Outside of hyperemesis, which I've had in all three of my pregnancies, I have four kids, so I've carried three of them.

Chelsea Myers (13:22)
Right? That's a big question.

Mahaley Patel (13:41)
Outside of that, was a pretty uneventful and complicated pregnancy. ⁓ Not a complicated birth. I think postpartum as a new mom, relatively new marriage, all that was definitely like a whirlwind. So I think getting to the idea of a second kid, my husband also travels a lot for work, hence why I'm in Canada, what ⁓ made me really hesitant to, I'd sort of always envisioned two kids and made me really hesitant to

Chelsea Myers (14:03)
You

Mahaley Patel (14:11)
second, didn't really totally understand how that would fit into our lives. ⁓ And so then became the journey to my daughter, Saachi, who would be three in February. So right around, I guess, the time that this is coming out. ⁓ And ⁓ the journey to decide to have her was

was complicated and lengthy, right? So they're six years apart. Similar pregnancy, hyperemesis, otherwise uneventful. Doctors, women, everything uneventful. She had myconium aspiration at birth, ⁓ did an emergency C-section. She ended up in the NICU ⁓ and she died five days later.

So then began the journey to my son, Kaaya who is 16 months, and my daughter Archi, who is 10 months. And we, I didn't really know, there were still at the time a lot of kind of unanswered questions about like everything that happened with Saachi

⁓ If it could happen again, if I carried another pregnancy, etc. ⁓ So we began pursuing the path to surrogacy. ⁓ In that process, I got pregnant with my son, Kaaya. ⁓ And so, and then my daughter Archi was born through our angel surrogate. ⁓ And so that's how I have two babies six months apart.

Chelsea Myers (15:52)
Yeah, which is a lot. ⁓ Yeah, in the best way. Well, and I'm happy to hear you say that because I can't, I'm sure you hear this all the time and it's not a helpful thing to hear, but like I can't imagine myself in that situation and it's not a helpful thing to hear because you're like, yeah, well, I'm doing it. I do it every day. So ⁓ like, cool.

Mahaley Patel (15:55)
Yes, in the best way.

Yeah. I think

it sounds, I think it sounds, think me pre-Saachi would have been like, why would any human pursue that? Yeah, but that just shows you what the like, how profound child loss can be on a person and how they view the world and their identity. Cause I'm like, this is the best thing I've ever done.

Don't get wrong, there's moments of overwhelm for sure and the family is as complete as it'll ever be on earth, but like, I feel like the luckiest human in the world to have them. The alternative of not having them is like that, because I've also lived that, right? Is not, this is the better path for sure. Yeah.

Chelsea Myers (16:56)
Yeah.

Emily Souder (17:00)
Yeah.

Chelsea Myers (17:00)
Yeah, yeah.

My brain went in so many directions. also want to note that I absolutely, I mean, I love all of your children's names, all four of them. But ⁓ Archi in particular was, ⁓ it's your daughter's name and I love that it's your daughter's name because it was my grandfather's name and it is not a commonly used name. He was born in 1912. So this is like, like you picked.

Mahaley Patel (17:10)
Thank you.

I love that.

Chelsea Myers (17:25)
a very, very classic name and I love that you chose it for your little girl. So anyway, that's just a personal thing. Love it. ⁓ Yeah. I'm gonna try really hard to like weave back and forth between you. And I'm usually pretty good at this, but we'll see how this goes. So before I get to Emily and Emily's story, because I do wanna know your story and your journey as well, where in that

Mahaley Patel (17:30)
Thanks. Thank you.

Emily Souder (17:31)
Hello.

Mahaley Patel (17:39)
You

Emily Souder (17:52)
you

Chelsea Myers (17:53)
path, Mahaley, did Emily come in?

Mahaley Patel (17:56)
⁓ So if you fast forward sort of to post Saachi's death, being a therapist in this space is an interesting position to be in after like the death of your child. So for a while I was like, don't think I'm gonna go back to work. Like I would joke with my friends, but not really. I'm like, I just think I would be an accountant.

Like I love numbers, like that sounds good to me. ⁓

Chelsea Myers (18:24)
Mmm.

Mahaley Patel (18:27)
somewhere along the way that shifted. I don't really exactly know where. But then work became almost like a way to spend time with her and sort of shifting my work more into working with, know, bereaved parents, grief, and NICU families. Because I felt like my NICU experience with Saachi was

It was the first baby I'd had in the NICU. ⁓ And I felt like that was a really unique experience just by itself.

And I also started writing a lot after Saachi died. So I think the combination of not like switching gears, but maybe fine tuning my focus a little bit more at work, coupled with my like love and appreciation for writing, I sort of kept coming back book and that's the style of it, right? It being kind of a guided journal with prompts and really

a book that you could use as a tool. I was like, you know, I really would love to have one of something like that for NICU families, right? Regardless of whether they came home with their baby or they left without their baby, like myself, ⁓ regardless of the duration of their stay. just think that NICU is like a really like its own experience that families have, again, regardless of.

their outcome.

Chelsea Myers (19:56)
and like you said, ⁓ you came, you were a big fan of Emily's book and you reached out to her. Emily, bringing it sort of into your journey. So you did not have a NICU experience with your kids, but you had experience in the NICU, ⁓ in volunteering in the NICU and that. What was your journey into parenting?

Mahaley Patel (20:03)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (20:22)
like how did you get to where you are today with your kiddos?

Emily Souder (20:27)
Yeah,

⁓ so, you know, we had, guess, you both of my pregnancies, well, both were very uncomfortable for me. I am not a person who enjoys being pregnant. I'm just not. Both were very uncomfortable for me, but otherwise healthy. ⁓ Both of my kiddos were born on the early side of things. ⁓

but not premature. So like my son was 37 weeks in one day. He was just like early full term and things like that. ⁓ And I had a C-section with him because he was Frank Breech And I did everything I could possibly do to get him to turn. But it turns out that the umbilical cord was really short and it was keeping him from turning. So that kept us from ⁓ being able to have a vaginal birth.

Chelsea Myers (21:11)
⁓

Emily Souder (21:18)
And then with my daughter though, wanted, I really wanted to try for a VBAC. And that worked out. And actually the NICU team was there because there was concern about meconium aspiration. ⁓ But luckily it ended up that she had not actually ingested any or breathed any in. ⁓ And they are, my kiddos are about two and a half years apart.

like I mentioned, so I didn't have a NICU stay with either of them, but about four, a little over four years ago, my son did have ⁓ a really serious accident that landed us in the PICU for ⁓ actually, luckily only a couple of days, but it was very intense couple of days. And Mahaley and I are definitely of the mind that like, you sometimes these experiences, whether it's one day, less than one day, months, doesn't matter, can be.

equally or, you know, it's all relative, right, the impact that it can have on a person. So I do think that that experience helped give me kind of even more understanding or knowing into the idea of grappling with these really tough things with your children ⁓ and experiences. Yeah, so.

It was a somewhat straightforward journey into parenthood, sort of, but it hasn't, you know, parenting the kiddos that I have, you know, and learning who they are versus what I expected is that's been a whole other thing, which is probably a whole entire other podcast episode.

Chelsea Myers (22:52)
Yeah, yeah, I

say that. I say that almost every time. Something that we bring that up and it is just the parenting journey is never what we expected, I don't And like you said, impact and lasting effect is relative. And I love that you say that because I also I met with a guest earlier today that was like, well, my story wasn't really traumatic. So like my

Sometimes I used to tell myself like, well, this isn't valid, but it's all valid. And especially when it comes to NICU, PICU, anything like that, like my youngest was in the NICU for a few hours, just a few hours. But ⁓ he said like, it's your experience and how you experienced it is valid. It's all valid. ⁓

Emily Souder (23:38)
Absolutely. Absolutely. We think there are room

for all of those stories. Like absolutely every one of them.

Chelsea Myers (23:43)
Yes.

Yes. So when Mahaley reached out to you, she slid into your DMs. What was your initial thought? Like, was it a pretty casual, just like, hey, I really like I've been reading your book? Or like, did she get straight to business? Like, I really want to write a book with you.

Emily Souder (23:50)
It was my inbox, but yes.

Mahaley Patel (23:56)
you

Emily Souder (24:05)
Yeah, well, was a pretty clear ask. mean, she had some really kind things to say, which I really appreciated because when you work for yourself, you don't always get feedback. So it's always nice to hear how your work might be affecting other people in a positive way. But if I remember correctly, I think she had a pretty clear ask of like, hey, I'm really interested in the idea of maybe collaborating on something together. Can we talk about this? ⁓

I can't remember if it was super specific. I feel like it was pretty specific around the NICU and things like that. But we connected pretty quickly and that was only a little over a year ago. mean, whole process has been ⁓ somewhat of a whirlwind in a good way, you know, but the relative ease with which everything came together was kind of amazing.

Chelsea Myers (24:54)
yeah, the two of you. So again, I have not I have a ridiculously long list of books that are in my queue, because ⁓ everyone who is sort of in this sphere, this maternal mental health and, and just parenting and pregnancy realm seems to just be you all seem to be magicians in the writing field,

But even just from your social media presence and the things that you guys are collaborating on, you just seem to complement each other very, very well.

Emily Souder (25:25)
Thank you.

Chelsea Myers (25:27)
Mahaley specifically, I wanted to ask you, yes, we're going to talk about this book and the process to writing this book. But I wanted to ask you specifically, and you mentioned it a little bit. When you went through the experience of having

your daughter and losing her in the way that you did. And you said like, you weren't sure if you were going to go back to work right away. And when you made that decision to go back, what kind of an impact did that make on how you were seeing your clients and your patients?

Mahaley Patel (25:56)
Yeah, it's a good question. because of the, I was working in a group counseling center at the time.

And what's great about that is I had in-house people covering for me on my maternity leave. But the nature of it, right, of how unexpected it all was, how quick her death was, how I don't think anyone knew what I was gonna sort of do, you know, come back to work or not, my clients all knew what had happened. So there were a few that actually chose to not come back.

to me, which I can understand. I think in world, so much of at least my clients' focus was on getting pregnant, the hurdle to getting pregnant, kind of getting through that first trimester. I think a story like mine is a real kick in the ass to everyone, right?

Chelsea Myers (26:59)
Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (27:00)
of

this, like I did everything in my power, right? I had great medical care, I had great doctors. It was uneventful, uncomplicated, and the worst thing that could happen to you happened, right? So I think for a lot of people, my story represents...

Emily Souder (27:15)
Thank

Mahaley Patel (27:23)
something they never want to face. And thankfully, statistics, most people won't have to probably, right? ⁓ So I think I can totally understand that decision.

Chelsea Myers (27:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (27:35)
And there were, and then, you know, I also decided to downsize ⁓ for my own, my own wellbeing. And I think also too, for the wellbeing of my clients, there were certain clients that I just don't think would have benefited had I come back to them. And so because of that, I started off in a pretty, in a pretty light, lighter load. And it was a while before I took new clients.

So then I sort of had a handful of clients that knew it happened, a handful of clients that don't know anything. was super hard. There were a lot of sessions that I...

you know, would just text a friend after and be like, I don't know that I can continue doing this, right? I think it's really hard when you've had the experience that I've had. I'm human, I'm a therapist, but I'm also a human. So when you hear someone complain and it's completely within their right to complain or to vent or to offload about something that is really hard for them, but an experience that I wish I could have, right? That's a complaint I wish I could have. ⁓ It creates a really challenging.

dynamic as a therapist and a client. And so I think had I had to go back and be the like financial provider for my family, it probably would have looked really different. I probably would have just gone into a different population. ⁓ And that's just a tremendous privilege that I had that I didn't have to necessarily worry ⁓ like how am I going to put food on the table?

right? Because of that, think I was able to ease back in in a way that felt better for everyone, my clients and myself. And then I think just came the natural transition of working with brave parents. And I think that's the work I really... I've sort of been this gap because a lot of clients have aged with me. So a lot of them now we're just navigating like parenting.

Chelsea Myers (29:06)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Mahaley Patel (29:35)
which I love. I love reading about parenting, very passionate about it, so it's great. I love talking about it. And then also this kind of other side of people who are really dealing with grief. I have less of a focus now, kind of in the middle.

Chelsea Myers (29:50)
Yeah.

Emily, when Mahaley told you her story, and ⁓ I love that you said, I'm a therapist, but I'm also

a person, I'm a human, because I think that's so often overlooked. And I think, Emily, you're the perfect person to receive a story like that, because you get that, you get that there's a human behind the therapist. What were your initial thoughts?

Emily Souder (30:06)
Mm.

Yeah.

I... The biggest thing that I've felt since, you know, Mahaley told their story and then her husband, Ravi, shared his part of it. The biggest thing that I felt the whole time has been gratitude to be part of this in any way. ⁓ You know, Mahaley had shared a lot about it, I guess, when we first met. And then there have been other little threads that have like...

trickled out, you know, over the over the months. And yeah, I just feel grateful to be part of it and glad to be trusted with the story and to get to know Saachi in any small way. ⁓ And I just feel really incredibly grateful for that. And I even asked Mahaley, I was like, are you sure I'm the right person? I was like, I don't know if I'm the right person, because I was honest that I didn't have a personal NICU experience and I wanted to make sure and she felt

solid in her choice. ⁓ so that made me feel even more grateful to be ⁓ trusted to hold and then like help with one of these first projects to honor Saachi and ⁓ help her kind of touch lots of people and their hearts everywhere.

Chelsea Myers (31:37)
Yeah, my goodness. Hold on just a second. Well, my screen just decided to open something. Okay, here we go. Yay, technology. ⁓ I mean, Saachi might be saying hi because, ⁓ well, I don't know if this is significant to you at all, but dragonflies for me are a big, like a visit from someone that I've lost. And my...

Emily Souder (31:46)
It was like maybe Saachi is just saying hi.

Chelsea Myers (32:06)
browser is opening HP Dragonfly over and over and over and over.

Mahaley Patel (32:10)
You

Emily Souder (32:12)
really

funny. I know a lot of people who ⁓ dragonflies are quite significant too in that way. know, Mahaley's thing is especially butterflies with her, but like I don't know to me at all. Really? ⁓

Mahaley Patel (32:13)
Love that.

Chelsea Myers (32:21)
It's still doing it.

It's still going and I'm like, can't close it out fast enough. ⁓ I don't know what's happening right now. So maybe this is Saachi ⁓ saying like, hello, you're talking about me. ⁓ Yeah, it's still good, whatever. We're still recording though. So we're gonna, hi Saachi. I was going to say too, I think something that's so important and that I love that you, that

Emily Souder (32:33)
Aww.

You

No.

Chelsea Myers (32:50)
I can't even talk now. That was really overwhelming. It finally stopped. I love that your reaction to that was gratitude ⁓ and honoring Saachi. And so I've had ⁓ several parents now who have either lost a child after birth or have had full term stillbirth or things like that. And one of the most important things that I've learned as someone who has not experienced that is

is that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the thing that I'm told over and over again is the best way to sort of honor that child is to talk about them and to include them and to speak their name. and Mahaley, you do that so beautifully from what I see just on social media. Saachi is kind of a part of everything that you do. ⁓ So

Mahaley Patel (33:44)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (33:48)
When again, so when you when you're working together and you and you guys decided that you were going to collaborate together. How what was what was the role of? I can't even think anymore, because that was so overwhelming to me. Well, no, it just well, it was. I know that butterflies are big for you, but dragonflies are my thing. And when you started talking about Saachi, it just was dragonfly, dragonfly, dragonfly, dragonfly.

Emily Souder (34:02)
Aww yeah.

Yeah, I get that.

Aww.

NOOOO

Mahaley Patel (34:13)
Hehehe.

Chelsea Myers (34:14)
So I'm just a little overwhelmed right now. ⁓

Emily Souder (34:16)
No, it's okay. mean,

these things, like it's also really a great reminder to, it always is a great reminder to me anyway, that we are connected, that there's, you know, something bigger that it's tying us.

Chelsea Myers (34:26)
Yeah.

And I mean, I'm

not necessarily, I also don't wanna like, because I don't know you very well, I'm just meeting you today. So I don't wanna be like, hey, Saachi's on my computer. But that was kind of a symbol for me, like wow, like she wants to be a part of this. She is a part of this. ⁓ Can you talk to me a little bit about how you approached this project, how you approached this collaboration and.

Emily Souder (34:45)
Yeah. She is a part. She's totally, yeah.

Mahaley Patel (34:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chelsea Myers (34:57)
the role that Saachi played in it.

Mahaley Patel (35:00)
I mean, she is the only reason that this book exists with my name on it, right? Maybe someone down the road would have written it, but it certainly wouldn't have been me.

Chelsea Myers (35:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (35:12)
So that she was the... she is the reason that the idea even existed for me. ⁓ She's also the reason that writing is a big part of my life now. That wasn't really something that I did in a significant way before. And also that's a big part of this book, right, is it's really a guided tool, it's a reflection guide designed to help people walk...

Chelsea Myers (35:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (35:40)
through the NICU story, right? So just in its very format, that is part of it, writing. So yeah, and then it was...

I don't think that Emily's previous books had had a lot of personal stories in them. And for me, as much as I wanted it to be a tool for other people to use to walk through their own journey, I also know that for myself and many bereaved parents that I know, the biggest...

Emily Souder (36:01)
No.

Mahaley Patel (36:18)
Help and source of I don't know if comfort is the right word, but source of something was seeing other people who had walked through child loss and survived. That was for me and that's where like I would I and still do like devour books written by other people who have lost children. And that was why like it for me it was a sign of ⁓

Chelsea Myers (36:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (36:48)
Okay, they're not special. They survived. And I'm not special. I can do it, right? They're no different from me. So I really wanted some sense of a personal element in the book. And Emily, thankfully, was really open to that. So like, you you talk about signs, right?

Emily Souder (37:07)
yeah.

Mahaley Patel (37:11)
I talk about that in some of the personal elements that I included in the book of what butterflies have signified.

just that very idea of signs and those being present in your world, right? Whether you've lost a child or you've lost another loved one or... And so we both have kind of a personal note in there and then we have two really beautiful contributions. One from my husband who really wanted to speak to, and I really wanted him to speak to the partner experience in the NICU and...

how unique that is. And then we have another individual who made a really lovely contribution as well. yeah, that's I just don't I again, the book may have existed without Saachi's life. It just would have never existed with my name on it. ⁓ So yeah, she is in really, I mean, everything they do, right? She's in the whole reason that I went back to work ⁓ and certainly a part of this book.

Emily Souder (38:00)
You

Chelsea Myers (38:03)
Right, right.

Yeah. I, the, the closet light is now turning on and off on its own. I'm not making this up. ⁓ yeah.

Emily Souder (38:22)
Chelsea, you are just like a hub

Mahaley Patel (38:25)
We're in a podcast

Emily Souder (38:26)
right now.

Mahaley Patel (38:27)
of signs.

Chelsea Myers (38:28)
I don't know

what's going on. This is really bizarre. But yeah, her closet light is turning itself on and off. So yes. Okay. Anyway. Yeah. Well, welcome all the things. I mean, I'm a spiritual person. I'm not a religious person. But you know, as long as whoever's here is gonna be nice and kind, you're free to hang. You are welcome here.

Emily Souder (38:52)
Yep.

Mahaley Patel (38:53)
You're welcome. ⁓

Emily Souder (38:55)
Benevolent energy

only. ⁓ And it's interesting about how the, and I don't think I've ever reflected on this so much, but snails have played a really large role in when Birth Story Brave came out and ⁓ were constant signs about the slowing down, don't rush the process, going within and then the spiral of going within, but then also expanding outward to make your story whole and complete and expansive. ⁓

Chelsea Myers (38:57)
Yes, please.

Emily Souder (39:23)
So there's been, guess they're are they arthropods anyway? I guess they're not insects, but they've been interesting. It's been interesting. wait, they're mollusks. I think they're mollusks. I think so. think so. It's like, how did we get here? I just.

Chelsea Myers (39:29)
I don't know what they are. I still don't know. I still don't know the, I mean, I know. Are they snails? Maybe. I also don't know the. Yeah,

Mahaley Patel (39:40)
He gave me a million dollars, I couldn't tell you.

Chelsea Myers (39:44)
how did we get here? There's a ghost in my closet and we're talking about signs.

Emily Souder (39:46)
I'm pretty sure

I'm pretty sure snails and slugs are both also mollusks, but

Mahaley Patel (39:51)
So this is a signs podcast.

Chelsea Myers (39:53)
Yes, this is the signs pod. That's going to be your episode title. Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (39:54)
This is the Science episode.

Emily Souder (39:56)
But that's exactly it is like the signs

and like these parts of ⁓ and actually for me right now in my current life, it's praying mantises, praying mantis, praying mantises. the way that these things, ⁓ if we if we let ourselves pay attention and listen, there's a lot that we might miss otherwise if we rush past. And I think, you know, Saachi lets Mahaley know that regularly. Like, that's what I at least what I perceive, Mahaley, but.

Chelsea Myers (40:04)
Mmm!

Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (40:27)
Yeah, she's the only person that could have ever in my life gotten me to slow down and look for that. Yeah, it would have never happened otherwise.

Chelsea Myers (40:35)
Yeah.

Well, and there's something that you guys that you mentioned again, I, like I said, I don't like to learn a lot. I want to meet you guys authentically, but I do have my guests fill out a little Google forms that I know what's important to you. And something that you included that really resonated with me was the idea of silver linings. I am not a fan of silver linings, but we keep talking about these things and we keep talking about signs. And yes, Mahaley, you may have never reached out to Emily.

if Saachi had never been born or if Saachi had not passed away. And these things that you've created together are because of Saachi and for Saachi. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a silver lining. Like there doesn't have to be something special and happy and wonderful to justify the experience that you went through.

Mahaley Patel (41:19)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (41:34)
that really resonated with me and I was wondering if you could speak on that a little bit, like how you, your perception of the whole silver linings idea, either of you, both of you.

Mahaley Patel (41:42)
Okay.

Emily Souder (41:42)
I'm

I was just going to say it's it's to me, it's really a lot. That's letting the whole story in. That's addressing the both and and that saying that like, you know, hey, this really awful thing happened and it still is awful and sad. And and these things happened. Not not like this thing doesn't matter as much, not toxic positivity.

Chelsea Myers (42:01)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Souder (42:07)
like, you know, because of this, these things happened and like to diminish from the grief or any of that, that stuff is all very real and present. And at the same time, look at all these really cool connections that can happen and the generativity and creativity that like came out of this thing or came alongside or after.

Chelsea Myers (42:27)
Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (42:28)
I think that as a society and as a culture we need reasons for why things happen. And I think not for everyone, but for individuals like myself and other people out there.

Sometimes bad things just happen. There's no reason. There's no medical reason. There's nothing I could have done to prevent it. In fact, I was in the place that I, the best place that I could have been for something like that to have happened, right? And so I think that's why like my story in particular, sometimes I can sense that it feels really scary to people because they want to know, well, what did you do? Right?

Chelsea Myers (43:13)
Mm.

Mmm.

Mahaley Patel (43:19)
What, how, how did you get there? It's like, well, nothing, you know, that, that's the truth, like nothing, right? There wasn't an obvious misstep, so I can't really give you a reason. And I think that silver linings become those reasons. look at what came out of that, right? You went through that hardship and it was because something better was on the other side. I cannot stand when people...

Chelsea Myers (43:26)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (43:44)
me a silver lining because what it says to me is that my daughter's death was justified, that it was a good thing that it happened because look at this other thing that I got, right? instead I look at it as just her death happened, there's no going back from that, I can't change the reality that's in front of me, but I do have a say in the choices that I make in my present day. So...

This book is not a silver lining. It was an intentional choice that I made to bring to Emily and that we then made together, right? We created this thing together. This is not a silver lining at all, right? And I sort of have to reconcile, yeah, it's very much sits alongside it. It's like this horrible thing happened and also ⁓ happened to be already in kind of a privileged position of also being a therapist in this area, which is unique, right?

Emily Souder (44:24)
Right, right. That's part of the both end.

Chelsea Myers (44:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (44:42)
And I can choose to do something with that. And it's also okay if I don't. It would have also been okay if I never gone back to work. I chose to. And so I'm choosing now to focus on this work and try to help other bereaved families, right? I think like the ultimate face, the ultimate way I have to face that sort of reconciliation is with my son and my daughter every day. Saachi was supposed to be the completion of the family.

Right, that was the choice. Two kids, done. Bye. Right? ⁓ And obviously that's not her story. And I can say with some confidence, a lot of confidence, they would never be here had it not been for her death, right? But that also doesn't mean...

Chelsea Myers (45:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (45:25)
that they're the silver lining. So yeah, I think it's one of those things that we just like, we want to like button it up, right? We want to like put the bow on it at the end and we really want everyone to have their happy ending. You you get their kind of their movie ending and I don't know. I don't know if you ever watched movies when it doesn't end like in a tied up way. It like, it leaves you, it just leave like you're like, but

Chelsea Myers (45:49)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Souder (45:49)
my gosh, that makes me think of the

breakup.

Chelsea Myers (45:53)
Ugh.

Mahaley Patel (45:54)
But what then? But what now? ⁓ But that's life. What then? What now?

Emily Souder (45:58)
Right? That

Chelsea Myers (45:58)
That is life.

Emily Souder (46:00)
is very much life.

Chelsea Myers (46:00)
It is. Yeah, there's there's a lot of movies and this is going to show my nerd to you guys. I'm a big old nerd. ⁓ But that's just who I am. But a lot of my family is really into Studio Ghibli and ⁓ Miyazaki movies and they kind of have. Mahaley, have you ever seen any like Ponyo and Totoro and yeah.

Emily Souder (46:08)
Happy to have it.

I've seen Ponyo.

Mahaley Patel (46:25)
I've seen Ponyo. Yeah.

Chelsea Myers (46:27)
Okay,

Mahaley Patel (46:27)
Yeah.

Chelsea Myers (46:28)
so a lot of those movies start and end in the middle. ⁓ Like there really isn't a beginning and there's really not an end and you're just kind of in it in the middle. And that kind of was what like that stuck out to me. was like, that that actually may be well, this sounds stupid, but maybe that's intentional. Maybe that's the whole point is that right? Like, that's just we're on this journey.

Emily Souder (46:32)
Mm.

No, but yeah, that's right.

Chelsea Myers (46:57)
and we're in it and we keep moving forward and that's all we can do. I also feel what's been really difficult for me through this whole process is that I'm so used to focusing on one event or the events that led a mother or a father or a parent to where they are.

today. So it's been challenging for me because yes, like you said, it's not a silver lining. This book is not a silver lining, but it's so powerful. So I want to give it the time that it deserves. But I also want to highlight because like you said, people don't want to hear my story people because it's scary. it's like my Mahaley's like people. Your story deserves to be heard. And Saachi deserves to be known as do

your three other children as well, all of your children. ⁓ And the more that we talk about these things, the less scary they become. One of my favorite kind of, it's not a quote, because I don't remember the exact words, but it's along the lines of like, shame dies.

Shame dies ⁓ when we bring it out of the darkness and shine a light on it. ⁓ And there's so much that I could go into with you, Mahaley. ⁓ And if we had hours and hours and hours, I 100 % would. And I'll ask this question. This is a very broad question. ⁓ When you were going through that experience, I'm sure you didn't know.

Emily Souder (48:19)
Mm-hmm.

Mahaley Patel (48:31)
Bye!

Chelsea Myers (48:45)
how the journey would play out or what exactly your experience would look like, what were some of those feelings that you were grappling with? Because like you said, it wasn't your fault. It was nobody's fault. But what were some of those thoughts in your head during that time?

Mahaley Patel (49:05)
I think mostly just figuring out how to survive. That was really what was in front of me for a long time. My oldest was six at the time, so I was pretty acutely aware that, you know, this obviously was, and I hope, is the worst thing that ever happens to me, right? ⁓

The only thing my husband hates when I say this, like the only thing that's parallel to it is like another one of my kids dying, right? Like everything else will just never, it's just never going to be what that was. ⁓ But I was pretty acutely aware really early on I was, and my husband, the two of us were responsible for how much of a mark.

daughter's life this was, right? It's always going to be a mark. It, I don't think will be the mark for her that it is for me, thank God. ⁓ But I, I determine now what's next. Do I get out of bed? Do I not? ⁓ And so for a really long time it was just really just staying alive. Like

Chelsea Myers (50:02)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mahaley Patel (50:29)
We would take her to school and come home and I would sleep pretty much the entire, I would go back, we'd get home at like 8.30. I'd go back to bed till about 12.30. One, I'd get up. I might put food in my mouth. I might take a shower. I might sit in the sun. And then we would leave at two to pick her up. We would do that together. And then we'd come home and we'd do our afternoon with her, right?

talk about her day, if she had any homework, might help her with that. We typically don't do screen time during the week. I don't remember at that point if we might have been watching a movie or something with her and then we put her to bed and then I'd go to bed. So that was my life for quite a while, was just a lot of sleep. It was a lot of kind of sleeping through to like get through the day so that I could sort of be awake and muster up some energy for when she was around. And the weekends I remember feeling just...

felt like years because obviously I couldn't go to sleep. ⁓ So it really was that for a while and then it would sort of bigger than that. It would be making a plan with a friend. It would be taking my daughter to a birthday party and showing my face in public. It would be trying to watch a movie, right? Our attention spans were pretty shot for a while but at some point in there... ⁓

Chelsea Myers (51:30)
Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (51:56)
maybe a few minutes in, we started watching stuff again. It might be reading a book. It was pretty small. My focus was pretty small, as I think it has to be.

Chelsea Myers (52:03)
Yeah.

Absolutely. And one of the reasons I ask a question like that, even though it is so broad, like how can you sum up everything that you're feeling when you're going through something like that, is because there's someone listening right now who's going through something similar and they're going to hear what you said and know that there's another side. And I don't even know if I like to use the term there's another side. There's another day there and it's

Like you said earlier, you take it moment by moment, or you take it minute by minute, and then you take it day by day, and then maybe week by week, but you keep moving forward. ⁓

Mahaley Patel (52:47)
Thank you for it and you

don't look too far ahead. think for me when I would look too far in advance it would look pretty bleak. really wanted more kids. No one could have ever convinced me that was gonna happen. So I couldn't look too far ahead to that. I couldn't look too far ahead to like what is my marriage gonna look like a year from now? What is it gonna look like a year from now when like the expectation is that I obviously am not sleeping from.

Chelsea Myers (52:54)
Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (53:14)
9 a.m. till 1 p.m. I knew that there was going to come a day where I couldn't do that anymore, ⁓ but it was very hard to look that far ahead.

Chelsea Myers (53:17)
Right.

Yeah. ⁓ and that's, I love being able to, to learn so much about these experiences. Cause like I said, like, yeah, we're a perinatal mental health podcast, but we're also a parenting a podcast. We're also a loss podcast. are just a parenting podcast in general. And there are experiences that I cannot fathom and I cannot say like, yeah, I understand. This is a situation where I cannot say like, yeah, I understand.

but I'm able to learn and I'm able to empathize and know, like I said, I'm so thankful that you're willing to be so vulnerable and share so authentically because someone else needs to hear it. And that's kind of the point of the book for someone who is navigating a NICU experience or who is navigating loss. It's a guided, yes, it has your personal story in it, but it is a guided sort of...

tool to help you navigate that.

can you talk to me a little bit about what your goals were and what you think or what you hope families get out of your book

Emily Souder (54:36)
Yeah, I think one of the things that we really wanted to do is help families feel seen, to have a place to say the things that perhaps they weren't able to or were scared to say anywhere else. ⁓ Really to, I mentioned this a bit earlier, but to let all the parts of their story come forward and, you know, claim space to be able to expand the story and let it be whole in all the parts. So those can be

the really hard parts, the painful parts, the traumatic parts, and there can be some parts of connection or advocacy or even beauty. And just letting all of that be present and kind of facilitating that ⁓ as well as, know, ⁓ letting other people's stories come through in case, you know, people can connect with those and giving partners a space to do this too, because that's been a place that ⁓ we've seen that...

has been kind of forgotten about sometimes is giving partners a place to have their stories too.

Chelsea Myers (55:42)
That's something that I appreciate so much. ⁓ think about the book for one and also, Mahaley, obviously I know you through social media. Like that's how I know your life. I'm meeting you for the first time today and Emily, same for you. I know you through social media, but what I do love is the space that is held for your partner and your partner's perspective and your partner's experience because you're absolutely right. There is a huge gap in

Mahaley Patel (56:10)
Mm-hmm.

Chelsea Myers (56:11)
the consideration of partners dealing with any of this, whether it is loss, whether it is witnessing their partner go through PMADS, whether it is birth trauma, anything. And I know that my partner a huge advocate and wants to talk about and does talk about like the impact on him. So the space that is held for your husband as well and your husband talking.

and advocating is a huge benefit in filling and work towards filling that gap. This is so hard for me, you guys, because no, for real, for real, because I have eight million questions in my head, but I have to sort of rein it in and round it out. ⁓ I do.

Emily Souder (56:50)
You

I mean, I take that as a compliment,

though. I take that as a compliment. I think that's great.

Mahaley Patel (57:05)
Sure, yeah.

Chelsea Myers (57:06)
I'm glad and

you know what this is you got I mean yes

Mahaley Patel (57:08)
That's how interesting we are.

Emily Souder (57:10)
Exactly. Or at least at the very

least, Mahaley, I fully know that I am a little bit of like a not a backstage character. That's not a thing. A backup character. I have a supporting role. That's what I am.

Chelsea Myers (57:19)
No. You're a support.

No. So, okay.

Emily Souder (57:24)
I say that with all the

love and gratitude in my heart.

Mahaley Patel (57:26)
Very much not

at all.

Chelsea Myers (57:28)
You both have main character energy, okay? my gosh. Well, and here's the other thing. Is that what they say? I don't know.

Mahaley Patel (57:30)
She is main character energy. She's, what are they? They use the word vibe. She's the main character vibe. That's what they say.

Emily Souder (57:38)
the vibes that's what the

people are saying now.

Mahaley Patel (57:39)
My Gen Z babysitter tells, says, I'll like be like, ⁓ Archi needs lentils for lunch. I'm like, we'll catch a vibe. I don't know. I don't know what that means.

Chelsea Myers (57:49)
We'll catch a vibe.

Emily Souder (57:49)
What? I don't even know.

I don't know. But I know you wear a lot of millennial gray. I know that you wear gray.

Chelsea Myers (57:52)
I have no idea.

Mahaley Patel (57:53)
I don't know what we, I

do. Today it's millennial black, but ⁓ we'll catch a vibe.

Chelsea Myers (57:57)
I will tell, the fact that I have, this

is like maroon. The fact that I'm wearing maroon, I am millennial. am black, everything black, gray, everything. I am a very true millennial. My nine-year-old came home. My nine-year-old came home and said, mom, what does six, seven mean? What do you mean, what does six, seven mean? Yeah. I Googled it. I had to Google it.

Mahaley Patel (58:08)
Yeah. Well, you are a millennial.

Emily Souder (58:18)
this this week. Why did this kid go viral just for saying six seven? I don't even understand. Why? Like what is this?

Mahaley Patel (58:20)
I don't know what that means.

Chelsea Myers (58:26)
It's nothing, it means nothing. It means that it-

Emily Souder (58:27)
But isn't it just the kid who just said it and went viral saying it? That's what my son said.

Chelsea Myers (58:32)
No, apparently

it's a thing. It's a thing now. And it just means like, nah, nothing. Like nothing. Yeah, I mean, that's what Google told me. I don't know how we got here either. No, I don't understand it either. I don't understand it either. But my we're gonna we're gonna catch a vibe. Six, seven. no, and I'm gonna I apparently lentils are a vibe.

Emily Souder (58:40)
don't understand. Make it make sense.

Mahaley Patel (58:47)
We're going to catch a vibe.

Emily Souder (58:48)
you

You

Mahaley Patel (58:59)
Huh.

Chelsea Myers (59:01)
Okay.

Well, okay, this I also love and I'm gonna be completely honest with you. There are, I don't heavily edit my episodes, but when I get brain farts and my tabs shut down, I usually will edit it out with me of me saying like, God, my brain shut down again. I think I'm gonna keep a lot of this in because it is honest. But it's honest and it's where we're at right now. me, and I, like both of you, both of you, I would love to just.

Emily Souder (59:18)
I feel like you should, it's relatable. It's relatable.

You

Chelsea Myers (59:31)
literally pick your brains for hours. ⁓ Mahaley, I want to learn so much more about you and about your story. Emily, I want to learn so much more about you and the work that you're doing. ⁓ And it sucks that this is just a little podcast where we only get a little bit of time with each other. But so what I'm going to do

Emily Souder (59:33)
You

Mahaley Patel (59:50)
You

Chelsea Myers (59:56)
⁓ because my children can only be kept outside for so long with my partner. The sun is setting. ⁓ What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say this, I'm gonna be completely honest with both of you. Mahaley, I am gonna encourage, well, I'm gonna encourage my listeners to check both of your guys out, your social media profiles, all of the work that you've done. It's all gonna be in the show notes.

Mahaley Patel (1:00:00)
Yeah, understood.

Emily Souder (1:00:00)
Understood

Chelsea Myers (1:00:24)
But obviously we couldn't get to everything in the one hour and four minutes that we've been together. So please go follow Mahaley and Emily. ⁓ Like I said, handles will be in the show notes. But I'm gonna be completely honest. Mahaley, think there's so much more to your story and there's so much more I wanna know. There are feelings there that I...

Emily Souder (1:00:32)
You

Chelsea Myers (1:00:48)
I'm an empath and I just learned I'm an Enneagram two So apparently, like I just I just want to hear your story and feel with you and sit with you and Emily I'm I I'm feeding off of your energy as well. I'm like, I just want to learn about these other books and about what you're going to do in the future. And I also am like, ⁓ this friendship that stemmed from just

Mahaley Patel (1:01:00)
That's so kind, thank you.

Chelsea Myers (1:01:17)
sending something to an inbox. I'm not gonna say dropping in your DMs again. ⁓

Emily Souder (1:01:18)
Yeah. It is pretty cool.

It is pretty cool.

Mahaley Patel (1:01:23)
Same thing.

Chelsea Myers (1:01:25)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mahaley Patel (1:01:25)
It is really cool. And she's very, she's, there's a lot to learn. She's very interesting. She's very dynamic, very fascinating. Yeah. Sometimes she says things I don't know what they meant. She said, what did you say the other day? She's like, today is something. And I was like, I don't know what that is.

Chelsea Myers (1:01:32)
my gosh, both of you, both of you. So open invitation.

Emily Souder (1:01:41)
⁓ are you talking about

I was talking about Mabin because it was the first day it was the fall equinox and I was talking about Mabin. It's the it's the fall equinox festival. It's more of like a Celtic kind of tradition. But ⁓ and there were different things. There were different things that I was doing. Yeah. So that was on Monday. But also.

Mahaley Patel (1:01:47)
Yes.

What is that?

Chelsea Myers (1:01:51)
What were you, what was that?

Mahaley Patel (1:02:00)
Learn something every day.

Chelsea Myers (1:02:01)
Hey, I

just learned it. I was today years old.

Emily Souder (1:02:09)
I got to teach her about the Winter Solstice, which she didn't know about that either. like, you know. I remember it one of the first like not book related texts that I had sent her was about how I how I really wanted to befriend of Crow and there were she didn't respond. She didn't respond for and I was like I was like too much. And she was like, no, I'm so sorry I got distracted.

Mahaley Patel (1:02:11)
Mm-hmm, didn't know about that. I've learned about chickens, gardening, all the things.

Chelsea Myers (1:02:12)
⁓ yes. We celebrate the winter solstice.

Mahaley Patel (1:02:28)
in this.

Chelsea Myers (1:02:29)
You were like, oh no, I blew it.

Okay.

Mahaley Patel (1:02:38)
Get started.

Chelsea Myers (1:02:39)
Okay, Mahaley, so I know about crows too, and I know how you're supposed to make friends with them. You leave them little offerings, and then they'll bring you things.

Emily Souder (1:02:44)
I know, but they don't want to come to my yard. think the songbirds

scared them away. That's a whole other thing. I have not been successful.

Chelsea Myers (1:02:51)
Well, I was gonna say, Emily, I can relate. At least I know about the crow thing. Mahaley I'm sorry. I guess that's just, I don't know. Oh, okay, okay.

Emily Souder (1:02:59)
She didn't turn me away. I mean, that was early on enough that she probably could have been

Mahaley Patel (1:03:00)
Okay. I love it.

Emily Souder (1:03:03)
like, you know what? She could have been like, Emily, there's a better candidate.

Mahaley Patel (1:03:06)
You

Chelsea Myers (1:03:08)
I'm

rethinking some things here. So what I'm trying to say is open invitation. You guys are always welcome on Quiet Connection. If you ever want to go into things more in depth. I have an open door policy for all of my guests, but I would love to connect again if you would like to. If not, that's cool too. I get it. We all have lives, but...

Emily Souder (1:03:11)
you

Mahaley Patel (1:03:32)
Thank you.

Emily Souder (1:03:32)
yeah!

Chelsea Myers (1:03:37)
Just yeah, just know that. ⁓ I just I'm so thankful that the two of you spent some time with me. You navigated my crazies ⁓ as I navigated my crazies and. ⁓ I mean, this was this was an especially brain farty day or session I can't even say day session. Holy.

Emily Souder (1:03:37)
would be great. 100 % I'd be on board.

what we do in life. All of us. Seriously, all of us.

Mahaley Patel (1:04:02)
You

you

Chelsea Myers (1:04:07)
bananas.

So yes.

Emily Souder (1:04:11)
Hahaha

Chelsea Myers (1:04:13)
So I've been I've been doing the ends of my episodes a little bit differently ⁓ In seasons past I had two questions that I would rotate between and I Decided to do something new and speaking of Millennials ⁓ My new thing is is it's a little bit of an exercise so it's gonna ask something of both of you You're gonna have I'm sorry. I'm asking you to use your brains for a minute, but well

Emily Souder (1:04:36)
Like, ⁓

Chelsea Myers (1:04:39)
Back in the day when we didn't have text or voice memo and we couldn't just say, hey, I'm trying to befriend a crow and leave you on read. And you had to leave an actual voicemail at somebody's house to let them know that you called. So neither of you know who my next guest is gonna be. You don't know anything about them or their story, but.

You called, you called Quiet Connection. So you gotta leave a message. And you're gonna leave a message for my next guest.

It's tricky, but I've never gotten the same response twice. And every response has been so beautiful. So nothing you say, no pressure, but.

Emily Souder (1:05:25)
Do I have to repeat

my phone number twice at the end?

Chelsea Myers (1:05:28)
This is date of birth, callback number. No, it's not the doctor's office. No, you're just going to leave my next guest a message. And the really fun thing is for you to get your message, you have to listen to the episode before this one. So it's a little self-serving.

Mahaley Patel (1:05:44)
Love

Emily Souder (1:05:45)
Tricky tricky.

Mahaley Patel (1:05:47)
that.

Chelsea Myers (1:05:48)
But yeah, so if you're both willing and up for the challenge, I'd love to hear your voicemail for my next guest. Emily, do you want to go first? Yeah.

Emily Souder (1:05:57)
Sure. you sure?

Yeah. Hello.

I you're awesome and you're doing good things in the world and shit might feel really crazy sometimes. Shit feels really crazy a lot of the time right now and you're still doing great. And that's what I've got. ⁓ Also believe in magic and you know, if you make friends with a crow, it might make your life better. I'm just saying. K, bye.

Mahaley Patel (1:06:21)
You

Chelsea Myers (1:06:26)
Okay, that was freaking amazing. That was me. Mahaley, you have to fall.

Emily Souder (1:06:31)
Sorry, sorry, Mahaley.

Mahaley Patel (1:06:31)
That's a tough one to follow. I'm going to start answering first, just so I don't have to follow Emily's answer. ⁓

Okay, so I...

I will just go with what my first instinct was, which was to leave a voicemail for the guests about what they're gonna experience, even though that's not what I think the assignment was. The assignments, whatever, I make it. ⁓ We're gonna catch a vibe. ⁓

Chelsea Myers (1:06:51)
Okay.

Whatever, the assignment is whatever you want it to be. It's a vibe.

Emily Souder (1:06:59)
It's a pipe.

Chelsea Myers (1:07:01)
Yep.

Mahaley Patel (1:07:01)
Okay.

to whoever the next guest is on Quiet Connection. Wherever you are in the day, I hope you're finding a little bit of joy and peace. You are in for a treat during your interview. Chelsea is warm and funny and honest and I think you're gonna have a great

conversation.

Chelsea Myers (1:07:33)
Thank you. That's the right. And that's how the episode ends. So yes, 8 6 7 5 3 0 9. ⁓

Emily Souder (1:07:34)
Beep! Right? Mahaley, I see you

Mahaley Patel (1:07:38)
My number is 777-

Emily Souder (1:07:45)
went the flattery route.

Mahaley Patel (1:07:47)
I thought I was supposed to like leave words of wisdom for I made up my own assignment.

Chelsea Myers (1:07:52)
No, it is...

I like it.

Emily Souder (1:07:54)
It was all

true. It was all true.

Chelsea Myers (1:07:57)
is highest praise that I can receive, especially with how, how off my brain has been. This is not the best example of who I am or how I conduct myself on this podcast. So I appreciate it. ⁓ my gosh. Well, okay. So thank you both. Thanks for leaving a message for my next guest. ⁓ I am going to link

Emily Souder (1:08:12)
We bring out the best in everyone.

Chelsea Myers (1:08:25)
Everything about both of you in the show notes. I urge my listeners to check the show notes. There's this whole thing Nobody's checking the show notes you guys there's good stuff in there. There's good stuff in there check the show notes and yeah, I'd love I'd love to meet again and I hope that Mahaley you enjoy the rest of your day and me and Emily are gonna go make dinner Yeah, pretty soon. I mean the kids are supposed to be in bed in about

Emily Souder (1:08:33)
the show notes. It's good stuff.

Mahaley Patel (1:08:35)
Check

the show notes.

are going to bed. Yeah.

Emily Souder (1:08:50)
soon.

Chelsea Myers (1:08:54)
40 minutes, so we'll see how that goes.

Mahaley Patel (1:08:55)
Yeah.