Twinsdom
Twin siblings, Kate and Mark O'Neill, share their intimate and whimsical talks about life and learning
Twinsdom
The Why Twinsdom episode
Kate and Mark share the inspiration behind starting Twinsdom, including their appreciation for their mutual support over the years and a shared love of meaningful conversations, Mark's love of deep divers and his symbolic journey from being a turtle to being a lion, and their hope for the pod to be a space for connection and community. Life's hard, let's make it easier by doing it together.
To connect to the blue-eyed, coaching powerhouse that is my twin, you can find her at https://www.oneillcoaching.com/
To connect with me and learn more about my therapy and coaching approaches, you can find me at https://www.emergent-life.com/
If you like what you hear please give us a review, and if you have a question or story you'd like to share please reach out!
So yes, there's some part of that for me. It's like, we get to talk to each other and yeah. Catch up and have these deep conversations. I mean, this is literally what we do Those of you listening cannot know this What was amazing about it?
Kate:Like it was like someone was able to vocalize this way of being and thinking and seeing and approaching life in a way that I feel I've had inside, but I haven't been able to find a way to articulate it
Sam:through the relationship
Kate:with the land. Yeah. So yeah, but it was good. It was really inspiring. I can tell you more about it another time.
Mark:Well, maybe that will tie nicely in though to what we're going to talk about today. Like purpose. Why are we doing this crazy podcast, other than, you know, liking to hear ourselves talk? It's not really true, but yeah, because we talked about our twinness but we didn't really get a chance to talk about why we're doing Twinsdom.
Kate:Yeah. Let's talk about it. I want to hear what you have to say about that.
Mark:Well, I'd be interested from what you just said, because it sounded like you got a little bit of a vision no? Okay.
Kate:I'm a processor, Mark. I need time to process. I'm still observing. Okay. Yeah. But let's hear from you. I like your new fancy mic. Thanks, Mark.
Mark:Yeah. You sound really good. Well, I got tired of hearing how much better you sounded than me, so. I realized my, mic thing was not working. So good. Well, you take care
Kate:of yourself.
Mark:Yeah. Yeah. And I figure, the ASMR community could just find this and then just, you know, go to sleep. Listening to my voice, my dream.
Sam:Exactly. Mark. Exactly.
Mark:Well We had our 50th while back and I think it was Sister Sarah who came up with the Twinsdom things. I don't know if that was you as well, but these sort of like little pieces of wisdom. Around twinness, but just in general and one of them was something like, it's not how you start, but how you finish something like that, right? Like I've always been a late bloomer in my life and you know, I've done so many things Like. 36 jobs, 38 jobs, I don't know, a number of jobs. I almost need to get another job so I can, break 40. I think you're about to do
Kate:that. It's Podcaster!
Mark:I was just going to tell you, you're doing it right now, buddy! Oh shoot, I got to do youtube and we are right there. Yeah. That's funny. A lot of different things along the way. And at some point I knew that I wanted to be of service to others, I'd always done customer service, but I really wanted to do a deeper help people in a deeper way. And that led me to volunteer coordinating and running volunteer programs, going to become an interfaith minister, eventually led me to social work, getting my master's. And working for a hospice and then doing my own practice, which has been almost 15 years now since I've been a social worker in the world. And I just feel like I've gotten to the point in which I feel like I have something to say or something to offer to the world, to others. I talk often about this idea of your inner authority, which is, it's when you know what you know. So it's not authority over. You have this intuition, this connection to knowing inside of you. And what I've learned in my job is that, I just need to be consistent. I don't have to be right. I just have to be true to what it is that I see, think, or feel. And then others can have their own thoughts, opinions, can connect with that or not. But in doing the therapy work, I see these Repeating patterns constructs, ways that we seem as humans to do this, and it's not always easy or effective necessarily to talk about those within a therapy session. So I'll reference those things, but for the people going through it, I think we all feel like it's our own individual thing, it's just happening to us. And I get to see it happen over and over again or play out for multiple people in ways that to me are reflective of, this human experience and these very similar things that we go through. And a lot of people aren't aware of that. So I am hoping to be able to talk about this human thing that we do in ways that make it a little more understandable, a little less mysterious. And hopefully, build some community around that, you know, that we don't have to do this in a way in which it feels so alone, it's like the idea of having therapy for 45 minutes or 50 minutes a week is not some best practice. No one studied that and said, okay, here is the best way to support someone, dealing with challenge. I literally don't know how that came to be, and the idea that we somehow need to do this alone, because there's such profound loneliness. In the world, and my particular thing is, you know, very drawn to this idea of deep divers, which you and I have talked about, the curious people, the people that have great capacity are often sitting outside the circle, or it feels that way. And I keep meeting them along my journey, and they don't always know other people are out there that are a lot like them. Yeah. So part of my feeling or desire is to help, create some of that space I call a deep divers club where the curious, the passionate, you know, the deep thinkers, have a place to gather or feel seen and heard.
Kate:Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Everything you said so resonates and you've had this passion for a really long time. And I would say that I've come to this in a slightly different way in the sense that I feel like you had the vision for this podcast, really, because, you know, I would never in a million years have done this. People may not know this, but I'm actually the shy one. But I was thinking about the fact that, throughout my life. And you have been a big part of this is that when I needed to connect and talk about something that was happening for me having the ability for us to talk together and to be able to be vulnerable and be emotional and as you said, go to those deep places and. Connect with someone while you're there. So I think for me, it's about that. And I love what you said about community. I'm starting to learn about that myself right now facing the challenges of social isolation, and how we do that. And I know how important those conversations have been for me in my life. And also your sense of humor and I think that's also really important, you know, and there's all sorts of ways to get to it. It's therapy, but it can also be so many different other things that people need at different times in their life, but connection will always be something we need is my personal opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Community.
Mark:Yeah. Yeah. We're not meant to do this alone, but it's been, part of a cultural norm.
Kate:I think on the lighter side, I mean, in a way I remember when we did our first twinsdom, I just listened to our first one this morning cause I hadn't been able to open it. Oh no. But I remembered that day after we were finished because our producer who was also our sister was over, you know, sort of watching. And after we were done, remember how she was laughing? She was like, wow, I realize I've never heard you guys talk like this before and you and I looked at each other like, oh my gosh, we do this all the time.
Mark:Do you remember that? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do.
Kate:I mean, I actually think we like talking to one another.
Mark:Absolutely.
Kate:So that's why I'm here.
Mark:No, well, that is part of it though. I mean, I'm always hearing other, podcasts and people will often reference that, right? Well, I get to hang out with you and talk for an hour a week or whatever it is. So yes, there's some part of that for me. It's like, let me schedule time. We get to talk to each other and yeah. Catch up and have these deep conversations. I mean, this is literally what we do Those of you listening cannot know this And it's actually what I was talking about with that, inner authority or that knowing you're Just being who you are, right? Just being who you are in the world, and this is who we are. For better or worse.
Kate:Yeah. So that part.
Mark:That's right. Of being able to connect, and you have offered me a lot of wisdom over the years. And, I guess I would say there is that part of me that hopes that you really get to see the wisdom that you have and what you have to offer. Because there is a lot there, thank you, Mark. Yeah, it's true. I've been the beneficiary of that over the years and times when I really needed to hear some wise counsel. And it was very helpful. It's interesting, I think, as we've gotten older, it's just sort of goes back and forth. I think so. You know, to
Kate:that flow. Yeah. And we're both, moving into new spaces in our life. In our gray hair, gray beard moment in time,
Mark:you know, it's true. I'm just thinking as we're saying this, that, we're talking about community and not doing it alone. And we are both, moving into this coaching space, for me, that's more forward facing, trying to put things out into the world, which I've never done, but I've always wanted to do. I just don't think I had really anything to say in the way that I do now. And you and I doing this podcast and other things that hopefully will come from our work is us not doing it alone.
Kate:Yes, so true. So
Mark:true. So even though we're twins and we've been doing this walk, it does feel like this might be the first time that, our lives are sort of coalescing here, in which we're doing the same thing at the same time.
Kate:Yeah, absolutely. The first time.
Mark:Except for being born. Yeah. we did do that at the same time. Even if you got out first. Exactly. and we shared the womb. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You
Kate:clearly. Floated in the same amniotic fluid.
Mark:So, I mean, yeah, it's true, right? and for so many people, I don't know if I talked to you about this, but this idea of pilgrimage, I think I'm going to call my coaching, pilgrimage coaching, the way of the path is The way I think about it, right? You can do a pilgrimage where you're doing an intentional journey of discovery and trying to gain some information, have experiences grow in some way. And then the idea of the hero's journey, which is something you're thrust into, you don't necessarily want to do, but you're doing it and that process. But in both cases, there are guides., people who are doing the walk, there's, I always love this idea of the rock Cairns, if I'm saying that right, the piles of rocks, you go for a hike or somewhere. Yep. And it's this, physical indicator of someone doing this walk before you. And if you're doing this walk of transformation or healing growth, it's helpful to see that other people have walked that way before you.
Kate:Oh, so much. Yes, I completely agree with that.
Mark:So I think about that, why not you and I, right, we're doing this journey we can be that guide or resource or support for each other when you're doing something that is new and uncertain
Kate:or revelatory. I like that part too, you know, that has the, the wonder. the curiosity,
Mark:man, you sound like a deep diver.
Kate:I like that my mind can keep getting blown, you know, over what someone shares or I hear. Absolutely. I think that's a critical piece of it. You have to be curious and I don't think, I guess that may be one of the requirements of being on a journey or going on an adventure or pilgrimage is you have to actually be curious about something. Yeah. It's
Mark:true.
Kate:Yeah. Be drawn to
Mark:something. Yeah. I say that curiosity is my favorite trait in a human. Yeah. It really is. Because there's so many things that flow from that. And even in a hero's journey where you're being thrust, having curiosity about the experience or be feeling able to open to it to understand what might be there in it. But again, I think this piece about not doing it alone is part of it. And think about like, I don't know Lord of the Rings or, other. Movies, adventures. People aren't doing it alone. look at Joseph Campbell's work and what he's gathered, you have these guides, supports, resources, physical, spiritual, metaphysical that are part of that journey. You know, and they're unexpected, typically,, I feel like we're at a potential jumping off point, when I think about the future if we build community, if we have these experiences, if we have a retreat center, we have a place for people to have these encounters, I don't know where it goes, you know, like, it excites me to think about. What could come forward in that place? Yeah. Yeah. Of exploration. Absolutely. Or these podcasts will just live in some metaphorical closet us. We'll just have lots of really great conversations,
Sam:and that will be it on a regular basis.
Mark:Right? That would be it. At
Kate:least we'll enjoy
Mark:it. Yeah. Kids, will learn something. Yeah. What is the movie, it's called The Way, it's Martin Sheen, it's about the Camino del Santiago, I believe, which is this very famous pilgrimage in Spain. And you know, there's a path, so there are pensions, places to stay along the way, people to meet, you're treading this ground has been tread many times, but you're having this experience and who else is doing the walk with you or alongside of you and making those connections for a while and building some, friendship community. And then people then go on there. Way and, take what they need from that experience.
Kate:Yeah, well, I feel like it's intentional like there's a When people say I'm going on a pilgrimage, there's some something different about that oh, yeah. It feels It's different than just like, Hey, I'm going to go check out this trail, you know, I've always wanted to hike that, I think it gives a little layer of the sacred in a way, or the conscious, there's just something more, intentional there.
Mark:Absolutely. So you have a destination and it's what happens along the way, like when I did my bike across the country years ago, right. I knew I was going to California, but you didn't know what was going to happen. And there were so many amazing things that happened, that's really the thing that truly led me on this path of even wanting to be of service because I've been helped so many times along the way, by people, but also by what felt like the universe to, you know, these synchronicities and this feeling of wanting to give back and wanting to help other people have those same kinds of experiences because you are doing a walk of uncertainty, of encounter, of discovery, and those are not easy walks but they're meaningful, you know, so that's my take on this. You were talking about spending time together, which I absolutely agree. And yes, I did drag you into this with my gentle insistence because there is something that. You bring that no one else can bring,
Kate:for you, Mark, I am sitting in my uncomfortableness.
Mark:I
Kate:will
Sam:Show up and be present and do this
Kate:and try my best to be myself.
Mark:Yeah. Well, that's enough. Yeah. It's enough. We talk about if we could do nothing else in the world, but help people feel that who they are is enough.
If
Mark:it's like one person, right? But I'm greedy, you know, I want, I want so many, but if it's one person, that's good. to truly feel that cause that's always at the heart, I feel like if everyone journey. Is that struggle, to feel worthy, for just being who they are.
Kate:You know, you're making me think of a dream that I had this week and I don't remember dreams anymore. Usually or they're always really hard, you know, they're not really that much fun. And I'm so glad when I wake up it's like, you feel like you've worked out. But in this dream, yeah. Yeah. I've never had a dream like this ever in my life. Is this okay for the podcast? Yeah. Tell me about it. Well, you're making me think about it because I had that experience in a dream where I can honestly say for the first time ever in my conscious beingness, I was dreaming an experience where I was completely content. And present and moving through this dream and nothing that anyone was doing or saying around me had any impact on myself. And the dream was offering all of these things. Like the dream was offering, an experience that in real life absolutely would have crushed me, you know,
Mark:that's why it's a really great dream. I think it was like,
Kate:I was just so, this is what was so spectacular about that dream was more what I was feeling. But at the time in the dream, I wasn't thinking, Oh, I'm feeling this. I was just being, I was just in the dream. I was completely in it. It was only after I woke up where I said, Whoa, that was. An experience of this, right, what we're talking about. So, very unusual for me. Yeah.
Mark:So you felt very very like within yourself. Yeah.
Kate:And. And also still loving and like still happy. Like it didn't affect my mood in the dream. There were some wonderful things. It was really interesting because sometimes really wonderful things can also make you feel uncomfortable or can trigger as many, uncomfortable feelings as painful things. And both of those things happened in the dream. And I was not moved. It was just I'm here for me, so anyway, I hope to capture that feeling a little bit more. And it felt like a gift of my unconscious or wherever we think dreams come from. And it was just this little present. Wrapped up,
Mark:So it's interesting to hear your dream because that reminds me of, I must have told you this, my story around the turtle and lion.
Kate:Yes, I think so.
Mark:Yes. So that idea of feeling really grounded within yourself, very present. When I lived in Seattle, I did a year of service through what was called the Campanus Mission. Through a Baptist church, which was the least Sort of Baptist church that you might imagine. It was a program where you, it's like AmeriCorps, except the church paid for it. So you had some housing and stipend and things like that. But one of the things that happened through it was I had some spiritual counseling with this minister and she, led me through some guided meditations and the early meditations I was in the dark, looking out into the light. The cave. we've talked about, right? There's pictures somewhere of me, under couches and chairs. Yeah. As a baby. And mom said I always liked being under there. And I've always felt like there's been something in me more reserved, right? More apart and sort of looking out into the world and I felt safer. And then one day I did. meditation and I walked out into the light and I was moving around and I felt really good felt confident and grounded and I looked down and I was a lion. And I was like, wow, because a turtle, it's always looking around, right? Like, when you're the prey animal, you gotta pay attention, look around. And the idea is Or hide. Or hide, exactly, right? Freeze.
fight
Mark:or flight, right? And I always thought with the turtle, it's perfect because you have the shell, and you think you're hiding, right? You're disappearing inside the shell, but everybody can still see you, you're just hiding. You're just, retreating. And, we had been to Africa, we've seen lions in the wild, and they were just chill, yawning, stretching, just looking around, right, because they're on top of the food chain, they're not having to scan and pay attention, look out for the next bad thing that's gonna happen. It was such a feeling, like we were describing, very physical and I remember that feeling, so, I have turtle and a lion, in my office, because of this idea of going from the turtle into the lion, into the authentic self, to where you're no longer removed or self conscious, Just walking in the world as who you are. And for me, this podcast is part of that, it's part of being the lion. And more fully being myself in the world without, the need for a shell for
Kate:protection. You know, mark, I didn't realize it was turtle versus lion. For some reason, I thought it was both. That's beautiful. That's great.
Mark:Yeah, I mean it is both in a way, right? Yeah. It's, yeah. I don't reject the turtle. Right. That's what I needed to do to survive for so long, yeah, absolutely. To stay at some step of remove and, I actually had an experience where someone I was friends with that had done some spiritual work with, he had a nephew, someone that had lived with some Native American tribes, and, so I had this spiritual grounding, but he met me, at the church, we only talked for like a minute and he met a bunch of other people, but my friend told me later, he said out of all the people that he met, he was struck by me, and we had no conversation, like, and he said, you know, and he said, he said, you he's a turtle, but one day he's going to be a lion. Like, what's the chance of that? Like that is not, I mean, who knows, I don't know, but it struck me. And then what he talked about was the idea of being a leader without being a leader., not a CEO kind of thing. So it was fascinating. I've gotten these little, I don't know, encouragements from the universe, but it's, I think why I feel so impassioned and trying to help people, encourage people to really. Connect to and be their authentic self in the world, have that feeling of being the lion, feeling able to walk more powerfully, more safely in the world. when we're in that self protection, we don't feel very safe. And we actually feel more vulnerable. We're so used to that sense of powerlessness that it doesn't activate our brain to switch out of it. So to me, that authentic self, that place where we have the inner authority, we know, what we know it's the place that we're actually safest, even if we're more. Open in the world.
Kate:Yeah. You know, throughout this whole conversation there's two words that have been coming to me and they're both used in the coaching world. One is embodiment. And actually that's used in many different modalities but that's what I hear when you're saying like, this is that being fully embodied and the other word that comes to me when you were talking was also alignment, like when I was trying desperately to come up with some language for my coaching site and, you know, we were talking about leadership and trying to figure out how to come up with some words and finally after struggling I just said to the person I was working with, I was like alignment. It's all about alignment, really coaching someone to help them create a life or be a leader in a way that is aligned with their true self. With their authentic self, and that's what I hear too.
Mark:Absolutely. That's good. And that's the word I use all the time.
Kate:Don't worry. I didn't steal it from you. It's all good.
Mark:I did not even think that. No, but seriously, because, that always makes more sense to me. Cause it takes it out of the right or wrong.
Kate:Exactly. Or that there's a better way or there's this or that and so often with leadership That's what we do. We think it's like we should be this way or this is what, whereas really the more you are yourself, the better leader you will be. Yeah.
Mark:Yeah. Absolutely. Right. Leader as lion
Kate:yeah. I mean, there's some other skill sets there too, but
Mark:Well, I like it. So it sounds like both of us, right. Are. Like you said, you will sit in the discomfort, you will show up, you will be your wonderful self. And I will play out my Messiah complex. I will
Sam:tell listeners that I want to be your sidekick while you work on
Mark:that. Yes. And I'll work on being my, lion self. In the world in hopes of, everyone, right, to be walking in their lion self and their authentic self because it just feels like that's a happier place, you know,
Kate:like their rabbit self or their this self or the truth is what is their representation?
Mark:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What is their unique shape? And that's what I mean, just being themselves, but in an empowered way, in a way feels like there's. Less of a need for self protection. Yes. And I think the community aspect of It's helpful or meaningful, you know, like I am most powerfully drawn to helping people feel less alone. Yeah. When I hit that spot or I see that in people, it's very motivating to me because I know what it is to be alone. Yes. We both do. To really feel alone, even amongst others. Yes. Like I'm really motivated to help people feel less alone. And I know that community connection people you're listening to this, right? Like people are out there who are like you. Who have a curiosity, good heart. Like, that's what I'm always struck by, is the people I work with, especially those that I end up working with over time, longer periods of time, who have suffered, who've gone through really, harmful things, but they still have their heart. I know. You know? They still have their heart. They still Ugh,
Kate:I just got chills on that. Yes. You know?
Mark:And so that's so motivating. I always say I'm in it to win it, you know, like I'm a dog with a bone, I'm willing to go wherever, right, to help someone like that, who hasn't, you know, become bitter or embittered and Who still has their heart, still has this desire to do well in the world who feels frustrated, who feels abandoned often, who feels powerless, you know, so I am hopeful, whatever we do, Kate, that, community is an outgrowth. of it. Yes. Whether it's online, it's in person, it's whatever, I want to explore many avenues. To try to keep creating, places for that. Yeah.
Kate:Amen, brother. Yeah. Yes.
Mark:So, listeners, if you're willing to go on the journey and to, form a community, a fellowship, whatever, you know, like when we were talking about how we wanted to do this, for me, a lot of it was like, just, companionship, right? You want to be with people that feels good to be with. And I think that's. That's a lot of it and trying to share some of the good energy that we have with each other, you know, the enjoyment that we feel in doing this to me that's something worth offering.
Kate:Yeah. I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah. That sounds
Mark:good.
Kate:All right. Give me some of that.
Mark:I know those sound good. Right. Yeah. I want to be part of that community, it's everyone getting to be human doing this walk and doing it with curiosity and, connection, community, it's good.
Kate:Yeah, it's good. This feels like a natural stopping point for today, do you think? Yeah, you gotta go. I gotta go.
Mark:I know. I gotta go. I gotta go. I gotta take my son sledding. Yes.
Kate:Excellent activity.
Mark:Yeah. It's going to be like an, it's an ice sheet with a little bit of snow on top. So that's going to be like, well,
Kate:it's a bit of a death zone. It's really snowing here. So hopefully y'all have some snow too for fresh snow for
Mark:next week. Yeah. That would be good. Yeah. Definitely planning some sledding there. And I got to take my 13 year old to the mall. So. Yeah.
Kate:Yeah. Sounds like a dad day.
Mark:Yeah. Different. Anyway, well, I got to go, but it's good to be with you as always. You too. And I definitely look forward to the journey, the walk, the pilgrimage. Yeah. See where we end up.
Kate:Excellent.
Mark:All right. Well, great to be with you. You too.
Kate:Talk to you later. All right. Bye my twin.
